The Volokh Conspiracy
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A Historian Claims that Republicans are Much More Likely than Democrats to Believe Government May Disregard the Law "When the Ends Seem to Justify the Means"
Ideological monoculture in the academy allows silly, unsupported claims to go unchallenged
In a recent article in Law and History Review (paywall), Temple University historian Alan McPherson makes a bold claim. He identifies two fraught attitudes toward the rule of law: (1) "when the ends seem to justify the means officials could disregard statutes"; and (2) "statutes require no enforcement mechanisms because government officials should obey them out of patriotism." According to McPherson the first of these attitudes is "held mostly by conservatives and the second, mostly by liberals."
McPherson uses the lens of the Iran-Contra scandal to explore this claim, by he hardly limits himself to that example. What empirical evidence does he have for this claim? Social science research? Polling data? Nope. Just his subjective impressions based on his understanding of how Republican administrations have behaved versus Democratic administrations.
I laughed out loud when I got to his depiction of the Obama administration. "To be sure Democrats to were guilty…. The otherwise scandal free administration of Barack Obama dealt with enemy prisoners through illegal kidnapping and torture, and he ordered countless assassinations of foreigners withdrawn strikes – all crimes under US law."
This amused me for several reasons. First, the notion that the Obama administration was otherwise scandal-free is laughable. Some people have even written entire books about not just Obama administration scandals in general, but specifically how the administration was inclined to ignore the rule of law when "the ends seem to justify the means."
Second, during the Obama administration one heard over and over from the administration's defenders, almost all Democrats, that the Obama adminsitration was entitled to stretch or evade or ignore the law because Republicans were unfairly or unjustly or otherwise blocking his agenda. It's hard to believe that McPherson missed that.
Finally, the only instances in which McPherson acknowledges Obama administration rule breaking are things that the left objected to, one of which, drone strikes, was not at all clearly illegal. There are far clearer examples of the Obama administration violating the law (e.g.), many of which have been discussed on this very blog site.
Meanwhile, McPherson is certainly correct that the Trump administration was hardly meticulous in observing legal niceties. But the Biden administration has implemented and defended policies with no sound legal basis. The most famous examples are trying to forgive student loans without a sound statutory basis for doing so and trying to preserve the Covid-era ban on evictions with even less of a legal basis for it.
Okay, so a particular historian made a particularly poorly defended claim. My broader point is that one sees such claims routinely because the academy is such a political monoculture. Liberal historians outnumber conservatives by something like thirty to one. In a more politically balanced academy, as this article went through peer review one or more of the peer reviewers would likely have asked for much stronger evidence of McPherson's claims about attitudes toward the rule of law. But one is much less likely to challenge claims that appeals one's own prejudices, especially when the target is people whom one rarely meets in a professional setting.
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LOL. Covid rules, gun bans blatantly violating the 2nd Amendment, ends justify the means interpreting the 8th Amendment to prohibit the death penalty, the 14th Amendment to guarantee abortion and buttsex, the 1st Amendment to exclude "hate speech" and the list goes on.
The left plays this game, not the right.
To the extent that either side "plays this game" it's wrong.
And it's obvious to anyone with eyes that both sides play it.
Yes, but only one side ever gets called on it...
Just like only one side has their candidates cheerled by the media.
I laughed out loud when I got to his depiction of the Obama administration. “To be sure Democrats to were guilty…. The otherwise scandal free administration of Barack Obama dealt with enemy prisoners through illegal kidnapping and torture, and he ordered countless assassinations of foreigners withdrawn strikes – all crimes under US law.”
This amused me for several reasons. First, the notion that the Obama administration was otherwise scandal-free is laughable.
I can’r read the original, but it sounds like he’s being sarcastic.
Right or not, outside of righty spaces, the Obama admin was seen as scandal free.
I'm unaware of any opinion polling, but I am aware of a TON of right wing articles positively straining against this narrative, which seems to me a pretty good sign it's a thing:
https://www.heritage.org/political-process/commentary/obamas-scandal-free-administration-myth
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/washington-secrets/2626809/list-obamas-29-scandals-and-the-medias-campaign-to-hide-them/
Right wing received wisdom is not shared by the country at large: film at 11.
"Was seen" as scandal free by whom? By the leftist media and academia who did his bidding?
All reasonable Americans saw Fast & Furious and Operation Choke Point as scandals. Maybe you didn't, because you are an anti-American leftist.
All reasonable Americans saw Fast & Furious as a botched law enforcement operation.
One of the biggest complaints people make about law enforcement is they go after low-level individuals while leaving the top-level bosses unscathed, Fast & Furious was an attempt to correct that, it backfired.
But it's hardly a proper scandal. No one in the administration was trying to commit wrong-doing, nor was it part of official administration policy, nor did any of the law enforcement officers break any laws.
It was just a botched investigation.
"It was just a botched investigation."
Like the "investigation" into the attempted assassination of Trump?
What in the QAnon pizza basement are you talking about?
Don’t try and work Brett's side of the street, you’ll never live up to the master.
Great comment! I'm sure he'll abide by your tone policing and do exactly as you say!
After all, your approval is literally the MOST important thing to everyone here.
Wikipedia, hardly the most right wing source, thinks it was a "scandal": ATF gunwalking scandal
During the Bush administration, you had "Operation Wide Receiver", which involved firearms with GPS trackers embedded in their stocks, so that they could be followed. This program was abandoned because the tracking devices failed too quickly, so they lost track of the guns.
During the Obama administration, the similar program, "Fast and Furious", had one critical difference: No effort was made to track the guns. They didn't bother with tracking devices, they just let them disappear until they showed up at crime scenes.
You're free to think this had nothing to do with Obama's effort to convince the public that the Mexican cartels were armed from American gun shops, rather than the back doors of Mexican army armories, as was actually the case. You tend to be delusional that way.
The point here is that it was, at BEST, the same thing that got called a "scandal" when Bush did it. So, how exactly was it supposed to NOT being a "scandal" when Obama did it?
At BEST, the only difference was that it was a Democratic administration doing it. And that's if you ignore the part where they made less effort to actually track the firearms.
If you're trying to push what's a scandal and you're citing wikipedia, you're losing the bubble. We are discussing public perception. Wikipedia is a lot of things, but a bellwether of public perception it is not.
I won't relitigate what happened. It doesn't *matter* what happened. You are trying that Brett thing and say that the key is that this is Objectively A Scandal As Arbitrated By Brett, but reality continues to have the temerity to not comport with what Brett thinks ought to be the case.
Scandal is about public perception; you've utterly failed to grapple with that messy fact.
"Scandal is about public perception"
Indeed. And F&F was a yuuuge scandal in the eyes of half the population, just not the half you swim in.
This is why we can't have nice things today; the two halves of the population are living in very different reality bubbles, and both incorrectly think they are seeing the Big Picture.
You might think it from the Internet, but our country is not divided into partisan Republicans and partisan Democrats.
I’m fully aware of what plays on the right, and what plays on the left, and how plenty of the country may vote with one or the other, but sings neither’s song.
This whole thing is a deep cut, and getting deeper as the years roll on.
That's so deep! You are a special flower! So special, I bet you climb Dick Mountain with your mouth.
I’m still pissed about the Garland nomination. And about the emoluments clause being rendered a nullity. And Abbot pardoning that dude who murdered a protester.
Those have the virtue of being real things that happened, which puts me ahead of some on here.
But they aren’t gonna be scandals, not at this late date in any way that matters. I’m aware of that. Brett does not seem to have the mirror, and thinks he’s The Main Character.
Garland? Yes, it was scandalous to nominate him. Fortunately Mitch McConnell saved us, and as a bonus we got Gorsuch, who is already looking like the best justice on the court.
Emoluments. If you’re talking about the diplomats staying at his hotel, it’s just too small to take seriously. And BTW, the throw-the-kitchen-sink legal strategy makes people like me doubt the Democrats if and when they actually have something real. A couple days back grb pointed out some stuff I’d missed from the DC indictments. The reason I missed them is the meat was buried in a heap of tendentious inedibles.
Abbot pardon. OK, that one is real. Pardoning the guilty is less scandalous that railroading the innocent but he still had no decent reason. And the commenters here that made up shit about gun angles using jargon they picked up from LARPing manuals, when they weren’t even there, and tried to explain away the guy’s posts where he said he hoped to kill a protester, were pitiful.
My point was very much not to relitigate any of that.
I think you missed my point entierly.
Garland? Yes, it was scandalous to nominate him.
And what about the Barret nomination, was that scandalous?
Abbot pardon. OK, that one is real. Pardoning the guilty is less scandalous that railroading the innocent but he still had no decent reason.
Well Abbott did have a reason, Perry was convicted of murdering a black person, and in Abbott's eyes, black lives don't matter.
And I cited Wikipedia as an example of public perception. It's hardly a conservative stronghold.
Public perception is not what wiki does. It just means there's an editor and no one cares to push back.
Were I arguing the superlative - that no one thinks that's a scandal, then it'd be relevant.
Do you really have that little of a clue about how Wikipedia operates in the real world, to think that characterizing F&F as a "scandal" could survive if the belief that it was a scandal was genuinely confined to right-wingers?
You’re confusing public perception for an objective standard, and trying to relitigate something I’ve not argued about here.
You're saying the lack of any pushback on wiki is proof of wide public acceptance. Looking at the talk page, this looks more like no one cares.
Of course, I don't buy into your teaming libs in every institution worldview. Remember: being liberal doesn't mean you spend all your time pushing liberalism.
.
Not surprisingly, Brett's description of these events does not match his own source.
Could you outline what you think Brett's inaccuracies are?
I could see quibbling about "no effort". For example, I have read one of the ATF agent biographies who was complaining that he was tailing the straw purchasers right up to the border, but then he had to just watch them drive away[1]. That may not be literally "no effort" - he tailed them to the border - but it is also not enough effort to possibly make the cases Operation F&F was supposed to be about making.
[1]he was pretty ticked off at his chain of command
Under both Wide Reciever (Bush Admin ATF gunwalking ended as countert-productive) and Fast and Furious (Obama Admin ATF gunwalking), gun dealers who routinely outted “straw purchasers” to ATF were told to continue to sell to known straws. Prior to WR in between and after FF when a border state gun dealer reported a suspected straw purchaser, that was the last they saw of them (unless called to court to testify against them). Operation Fast and Furious suspect Uriel Patino alone bought 723 guns during FF. Ordinarily Patino would have been visited by ATF and either warned to stop or would have been arrested. Then Washington DC Democrat politicians wanted to blame the gun dealers for selling guns to straws to make a public example of them. That to me was the real scandal of Fast and Furious: dealers who outted cartel straw purchasers and were told by ATF to continue selling to them were going to be declared the villians and fed to the rabidly anti-gun biased media as sacrificial lambs to gain campaign points.
Fast and Furious wasn't considered a scandal outside the right? Since it involved guns, I'd expect it to be *more* of a scandal on the left.
The purpose of Fast & Furious was to create propaganda for the campaign to disarm Americans.
Of course, with Trump v. United States, it is all but certain that any attempt to prosecute President Obama for the murder of Brian Terry would fail.
- Davy C: "Since it involved guns, I’d expect it to be *more* of a scandal on the left."
- Michael Ejercito: "The purpose of Fast & Furious was to create propaganda for the campaign to disarm Americans."
Leftists ("liberals") very much want to disarm law-abiding Americans. On the other hand, they aren't particularly eager to arrest / prosecute people who carry guns illegally. (See (1) their opposition to "stop & frisk," (2) the various Soros-backed prosecutors who have officially announced that they won't prosecute such people.)
How odd...
They aren't eager to arrest or prosecute people who commit crimes with guns, because those people are disproportionately blacks and mestizos, and those demographics are integral parts of the Democratic base.
Which shows the difference between the rank-and-file gun control supporter and the leadership and spokesholes.
The rank-and-file fear street crime.
Sadly and tragically, too many of them have compelling reasons to fear street crime.
For the leadership and spokesholes, it is a culture war issue. Thety want stricter gun control laws to use against the White male conservative, whom they view as their political enemy.
Why are all Republicans these days batshit crazy conspiracy theorists?
Misunderstanding the other side, a scandal that got no play, and declaring it was a plot by the other side, and then complaining how no one takes you seriously.
If you want to demonstrate the bias that Prof. Bernstein is talking about, but on the other side and taken to an extreme, this exchange here is it.
Nailed it! Mr. Eagle Eye Factual is what they call you around here!
Stop the gaslighting, fuck face.
"Right or not, outside of righty spaces, the Obama admin was seen as scandal free."
Inside Democratic circles, and ONLY inside Democratic circles, the Obama administration was seen as 'scandal free'. Or at least claimed to be.
You think Heritage and the Washington Examiner were aiming at Democratic circles?
You are distorting the American polity into MAGA and Democrats.
Right or wrong (always wrong) your views, including your version of the factual record, are not widely shared. Realize this.
This is also true of my view and take of the facts also. Though as an institution list who thinks people can disagree with me legitimately, I sit with that vastly better than you do.
So, you're saying that something can only be a "scandal" if left-wing media think it's a scandal, right-wing or at least centrist media don't count?
Doesn't that kind of make Democrats not having "scandals" tautologically true? Since even if left wing sources think a Democrat has screwed up, they're never going to call the screw-up a "scandal"?
I'm saying that you, because you think everything to the left of FOX News, is left-wing, have a profoundly distorted view of America.
Again, the Heritage is not aiming at Democrats. You may define them as Democrats, but that's not what they are; they just disagree with you.
On the money Brett.
Think this one through. Yesterday there was an article stating how things were changing for the MSM. That the MSM was no longer the gatekeeper between the President and the Public. Think that through. The media considers themselves as the determiner of what we hear. Now look at the fact that over 80% of the MSM favors Democrats. Apparently it isn't a scandal unless the media says that it is one.
For better or worse, the media's been well narrowcasted and democratized for a decade by now, jim. People choose their own feeds.
It's not the media, it's the public - it isn’t a scandal unless the public says that it is one.
Also omitted from the Obama scandals was the Iranian payoffs
Tell us more please.
Scandal is not defined as "policy I don't like." It's not even defined as "objectively bad policy." A scandal need not rise to the level of criminal, but it must involve corruption or malfeasance.
Sacastro - proves that he lives in a left wing echo chamber.
Joe, you're so out there most on the right around here don't walk with you when you comment.
None of the VC liberals are going to live in a left wing echo chamber; that's baked in.
Maybe you need to check your memory against actual facts. MSM sources like CBS were calling Fast and Furious a scandal back when it was discovered (video from Aug 31, 2011): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFm4uXn2ciE
That lots of people memory-holed the scandal doesn’t mean it wasn’t a scandal.
IRS targetting conservative non-profits scandal – called so by ABC in 2013: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/president-obama-irs-targeting-conservative-tea-party-groups-19169511
And here’s PBS also calling it a scandal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9-LkEH9Owc
Benghazi was a scandal *when it happened*, and not just on the right. MSM sources like CNN were continuing to call it a scandal in 2016: https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/28/politics/benghazi-scandal-report-hillary-clinton/index.html
The VA scandal in 2014 (over wait times) was called a scandal by MSM sources like the WP and USA Today at the time, and is *still* called a scandal today by mainstream sources:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/20/politics/drew-griffin-veterans-affairs-report/index.html
You may remember the Obama administration as being scandal-free, but that doesn’t match up to the evidence. (I make no claims that this list is exhaustive, in fact, I know its not).
(Edit: And anyone remember those 'kids in cages' pictures that were actually from the time of the Obama administration?)
Somebody calling something a scandal does not make it so. You mention specifically the alleged "IRS targetting conservative non-profits scandal." As with the claims of scandal leading to the Restructuring and Reform Act of 1998, the alleged "IRS targetting conservative non-profits scandal" was not a scandal except in conspiracy minded right wing minds. As two scholars have concluded (Joshua D. Blank & Leigh Osofsky, Democratic Accountability and Tax Enforcement, 61 Harvard Journal on Legislation 251, 253-254 at n. 7, & 258-259 (2024)):
Despite the controversy, a later review by TIGTA in 2017 showed that the IRS had scrutinized tax-exempt applications from both conservative and liberal organizations. In response to the 2017 report, Professor Neil Buchanan characterized the “IRS scandal” as an “elaborate, innuendo-driven lie that many people repeated endlessly, trying to get you to believe that there was a scandal.”
It's not like a "scandal" is a natural category that can be objectively determined. No, it's entirely based on whether people think the act or omission is a "scandal". And people across the political spectrum demonstrably did think that multiple events during the Obama administration were "scandals".
"Despite the controversy, a later review by TIGTA in 2017 showed that the IRS had scrutinized tax-exempt applications from both conservative and liberal organizations."
This again. Yes, once the IRS realized that the jig was up, and it was all going to come out, they added liberal terms to the BOLA list, to cover themselves. But the liberal and the conservative groups that got diverted on that basis got very different treatment indeed.
Just the fact that they had to destroy so many phones and hard drives after the news became public should be enough for you to realize that, yes, it really was a scandal. You don't need to engage in mass destruction of evidence if you're innocent.
I cited MSM, including obviously left-leaning publications, which called it a scandal at the time. That the IRS *might* later have been vindicated did not stop it from having been a scandal.
And I’m not convinced. Your claims don’t align with the facts during the scandal or after the scandal at all.
-The Treasury Inspector General released a report confirming the IRS used inappropriate criteria.
-Evidence came out the Lois Lerner had known of the use of these criteria for at least two years before the scandal broke.
-The IRS was criticized by legislators of both sides and the White House.
-The IRS destroyed evidence rather than hand it over to Congress.
-Lois Lerner refused to answer questions in front of congress, and was later put on administrative leave when she refused to step down.
-Democrats blamed “gross mismanagement” for agency failures.
The IRS wasn’t later vindicated, the Treasury Department’s inspector general later found (2017) that it wasn’t just conservative groups that were inappropriately targeted, but some liberal groups too (for a time period from 2004-2013 for groups from both sides). Despite the victims being from both ends of the political spectrum (so not biased against conservatives as originally believed), the targeting was inappropriate in all the identified cases.
That’s all still scandalous.
And major media sources calling something a scandal is pretty much what it means to be a scandal.
If he was being sarcastic, he would have been unable to reach the conclusion articulated in the abstract. I think the hypothesis of sarcasm can be rejected.
He definitely was not being sarcastic. And hey, I have no idea whether conservatives/Republicans are more likely than Democrats/liberals to think its OK to disregard the law when "it seems that the ends justify the means." But this is the sort of thing that one can actually do research on, or look up research that's aleady been done, rather than going with "my impression is that the Bush II administration was lawless, but the Obama administration was scandal-free, and therefore..."
Every Republican president elected in my lifetime has had administration members who had to be pardoned for violations of the law that advanced some lawless objective of the administration. Nixon was pardoned by his VP after his resignation; various Iran-Contra figures were pardoned by Reagan's VP; Scooter Libby had his sentence commuted and was later pardoned for "Plamegate"; Roger Stone and Michael Flynn were pardoned for crimes related to covering up Russian interference in the 2016 election. Trump was impeached over an attempt to gain advantage in the 2020 election and then for trying to overturn the 2020 election result; Clinton was impeached for lying about an affair that clearly did not advance his administration's agenda. Republicans appear to be far more willing to break clear laws to achieve political goals.
Every president seems to have issued dubious pardons; Bill Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich has gotten particular criticism by right wingers, despite claims that it was motivated by requests from Israel and Jewish leaders in the US. But there are also shady pardons by Republicans; the official lawlessness rather than personal corruption is the pardoning officials of Republican administrations for doing illegal stuff to advance the administration's objectives.
It's hard to judge which party is more likely to use black ops (which are intended to be secret, so we may not know the score there). Both parties get outraged over actions taken by the other party, but claiming for example that Obama's administration was riddled with scandal is really just political disagreement presented as scandal (Republicans controlling Congress failed to find anything to impeach for; they just generate a lot of smoke). And it's not hard to see which party is more prone to dirty tricks to win elections, though.
Libby and Flynn's charges turned out to be political bullshit created by the Democrats.
How about Bill Clinton commuting the sentences of Linda Evans and Susan Rosenberg? Both of them were charged in the 1983 bombing of the Senate Building? How about the group that did the bombing being an off shoot of the Weather Underground? Then you have Bill Ayres and Bernadine Dorn, both of them being credited by Obama as being his mentors, belonging to the Weather Underground. The Weather Underground sprang from the Students for a Democratic Society. One of the SDS's most famous members was Hilary Rodham. Yep no scandal there.
It's only a scandal of Sacastr0 recognizes it as such!
Libby lied and was prosecuted by Republican appointees. Flynn lied and was fired by a Republican administration and then prosecuted by Republican appointees of that administration.
There are lots of questionable pardons; Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis hardly deserve even posthumous exoneration for their actions. Regarding Evans and Rosenberg, neither was advancing the objectives of the administration that pardoned them. And those two served substantial prison sentences before being pardoned. Libby is the only one among those I listed who actually faced a legal consequence for shielding an administration's corruption.
"and then prosecuted by Republican appointees of that administration."
Yeah, and when that Republican President fired somebody over doing that contrary to his own orders, they sicced a special counsel on him. It might have been a Republican administration, but the prosecution was the work of the permanent bureaucracy.
"they" sicced a special counsel on him?
Are you saying "they" did not include political appointees?
For the record, neither Evans nor Rosenberg were pardoned; rather, Clinton commuted their sentences.
1) Flynn's charges were neither political nor created by the Democrats.
2) Nothing you described there is a scandal.
3) Rosenberg was not prosecuted for the 1983 bombing.
4) Obama never described Ayers or Dohrn as his mentors.
5) Hillary Clinton was never a member of the SDS.
Other than that, great comment!
Magister 4 hours ago
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Mute User
Scooter Libby had his sentence commuted and was later pardoned for “Plamegate”;
Magister – You might want to get the facts straight before commenting.
1) Scotter libby did not “out Plame”
2) The FBI already knew who outted Plame before they got him on a manufactured / entrapment on perjury.
Once the FBI knew it wasnt Libby, they had zero basis to get him on an entrapment
He deserved to be pardoned.
Magister - that is also the 3rd or 4th time you posted about the Libby pardon without mentioning the corruption in his prosecution.
The corruption in his prosecution is a right wing thing.
Demanding people mention whatever your takes are is just you doing your 'agree with meeeee' thing that you do.
"Plamegate" was just the most visible part of corrupt pursuit of a war in Iraq; Colin Powell lying at the UN, stovepiping intelligence, torture among others. Libby lying to the FBI and the grand jury was a crime, and perhaps there would have been other prosecutions if he hadn't lied and obstructed the investigation. If there was corruption in Libby's prosecution, it would have come from (checks notes) the Republican administration of George W. Bush (which fired US Attorneys more for political reasons than for corruption or incompetence).
Thank you for keeping such careful count of my posts, though.
The conclusion that conservatives are worse about disregarding inconvenient laws isn't articulated in the abstract. All he says is:
"...as an instructive case study and red flag in the attitudinal erosion of the belief in the rule of law among American conservatives..."
There is no claim there that conservatives are worse than liberals. I guess he makes that claim in the article, which we can't read.
Reality is that Obama went through Hellfire Missiles like a frat boy through beer -- so much so that we now have a shortage of them which is a national security issue because it isn't just drones that use them; helicopters, ships, and ground forces fire them from a wheeled vehicle.
For all the complaints about GW Bush, it is Obama who used them the most...
I guess I am curious why the Commander-in-Chief having the military use weapons whose purchase was authorized by Congress would be corrupt, just for the number used. (Also too bad that Trump couldn't be bothered to restock those weapons, or pandemic preparation, in his term in office.)
I suppose Dr. Ed 2 intended a complaint about particular targets of drone strikes, or maybe that war by easy remote killing is itself corrupting (that would be ironic from Dr. Ed 2, advocate of nuking and other mass death, but maybe he wouldn't want death by remote controlled snow plows), but on the whole I would rather the US attacked appropriate targets without risking members of our military.
You would think, but no.
There was a bunch of media types around the end of Obama’s presidency declaring that his administration had been “scandal free.”
These people are indistinguishable from someone who had their brain removed and replaced with an AI software propaganda program.
Edit: EXHIBIT A, NPC Sarcastro’s reply above.
Heritage and Washington Examiner are now part of the liberal media conspiracy.
Your title says Republicans and Democrats. The statement you take issue with is about conservatives and liberals.
I don't think those are the same thing.
As to the main issue of the OP, I've been listening to a history podcase lately (The Rest is History) and one thing it illustrates is how true it is that historians don't often go in for opinion polling and the like. It's not a clinical science like archeology. It absolutely goes by narratives and, dare I say, vibes.
Maybe that should be different!
But you're making a new standard and then complaining it's not being followed. Because your ox got gored this time.
Yes, a big problem with historians is that some of them think "you read stuff and then draw conclusions based on what you read," without any sort of methodological basis for the conclusions you draw except for your feelz. In a more ideologically diverse academy, historians who rely on "progressive feelz" to make disputed claims would face more pushback, and *at least* not be so ignorant of the other side as to believe there is some sort of consensus that outside a few exceptions that troubled the left, the notion that the Obama admnistration never let pragmatic/political/ideological goals interfere with obedience to the rule of law is not only not universally accepted, it strikes many on the broad "right" (including libertarians who are equally critical of Republicans, like folks at Cato) as absurd.
I cannot deny academia is not ideologically diverse, and I do think you establish it's not too thought through, based on your excerpts.
2 issues, though:
1) I don't know if I think that's a fair criticism - you're not going to be able to turn history into a clinical science. Just as an op-ed cannot be demanded to have the level of fidelity of a legal paper, pushing back by demanding the protocols of a different discipline be brought to bear is a category error.
2) This is sorta political advice, so take it as it's worth (not much), but I think the straight at it approach, even if warranted, is going to melt in with the usual right-wing claims of bias.
The answer to a narrative academic discipline will tend to be narrative and academic. If you want hope of engagement versus dismissal, I'd say start a conversation. Throw out there some Obama scandals, from that Lawless book, etc.
Maybe it's too small a hope to be worth it. I dunno.
Yes, a big problem with historians is that some of them think “you read stuff and then draw conclusions based on what you read,” without any sort of methodological basis for the conclusions you draw except for your feelz.
No doubt true. Those are bad historians, who, like Bernstein, and all but a few of those who write on this blog, have no notion what scholarly processes good historians rely upon. So this is not likely to prove a very useful discussion.
I have repeatedly offered a corrective to widespread misperception of how reliable historical research is practiced. I will offer it again. The conservative English historian and philosopher Michael Oakeshott wrote a brilliant essay to describe the process. It is titled, On History. It is available in book form in a small volume featuring 4 other essays, two of which also address historical topics. It goes in and out of print. The title of the volume, usually available in paperback from Amazon, is On History and Other Essays.
This comment describes what the historical essays address:
Michael Oakeshott believed, as Timothy Fuller observes, that “the historian’s effort to understand the past without ulterior motive [is the] effort which distinguishes the historian from all who examine the past for the guidance they expect it to provide about practical concerns.”
I found that comment online just now. I do not know who made it. Fuller is a political scientist, and an expert on Oakeshott. Fuller got the summary right.
Anyone familiar with the work of preeminent historians will recognize immediately that they distinguish themselves from others by following methods recognizably similar to those Oakeshott elucidates and recommends. Some of them, like the late great historian Edmund Morgan seem almost to adhere to Oakeshott point for point. But Morgan’s earliest great works preceded Oakeshott’s essays on history. Whether they were acquainted I do not know, but it seems likely to me that they were.
Professor Bernstein, please read Oakeshott before commenting further on historical method. If you do that, you can still say whatever you like, but you will at least better understand what you are talking about. Better yet, Oakeshott will teach you to disregard the legions of ignorant opinionators about historical conclusions who have no idea what they are talking about. The legal profession is infested with those.
How many historians under age 50 do you think have even heard of Oakshott? But just to be clear, of course not all historians have no concept of what constitutes evidence as opposed to impression. But way too many do, which says that there is something wrong with how they are being trained.
How many historians under age 50 do you think have even heard of Oakshott?
British historians assuredly still do.
Bernstein — Probably quite a few more than those over 50, at least in the U.S. I first heard about Oakeshott from my son, now age 36, who graduated from Brandeis as a history and politics major in 2008.
As for your other remarks, the learned professions all feature practitioners whose performance varies from incompetent to preeminent. Anyone in need of professional help is free to choose among any of them. But the selection is advantaged when choosing among historians, because compared to the others you pay no extra premium to rely upon the best. You only have to be able to discern which ones they are. Read and understand Oakeshott and you will know how to do that.
It's hard to evaluate Prof. Bernstein's criticism of an article we can't read. But I think there can be more to a particular historical claim than narratives and vibes. All respect to Messrs. Holland and Sandbrook, who's podcast I also enjoy.
There certainly can be. But I also recall that during the Nancy MacLean controversy that historians defending her from charges that she made stuff up and that her footnotes either didn't exist or didn't match her text gave the extraordinary defense that intellectual historians don't need any citeable evidence, they just Read a lot and then draw conclusions and if they are sufficiently prominent one just assumes that the conclusions are accurate
That sounds like a tendentious paraphrase of something which made more sense in the original. Professional historians do not customarily dig deeply into others footnotes unless they are using them for related work. Except in cases where the footnotes seem amiss to someone expert in the same subject matter.
That is not scandalous in itself. It does open the door to endorsements in rare cases—the Bellesiles incident was one—where an irresponsible researcher reaches unsupportable or even fraudulent conclusions which in fact accord with expert understanding of the record.
The problem is that, when an academic field gets totally taken over by one political viewpoint, the way history has been, such cases can become much less rare. Because if somebody makes a whacked out claim with a popular political valance, who's motivated to actually check those footnotes?
That's why Bellesiles could get that award, despite his work having numerous and conspicuous problems: Because nobody in the review process for it disagreed with his political aims, they all really wanted his conclusion to be true, rendering it too good to check. An academic field that was more politically balanced would have had people reviewing him who didn't like his conclusions, and so wouldn't be averting their gaze from the problems.
And the field of history has only grown more politically uniform since Bellesiles. If another Bellesiles came along, they might not even be shamed into eventually responding to the problems today. They took long enough in his case, the alarm bells were ringing already long before he got that prize.
I'd add that when they finally went back and revoked the prize, they were careful to only note the obscure stuff, like the probate records that didn't actually exist, and glossed over the conspicuous stuff even non-historians had been pointing out to them, like the mangled historical quotes. They'd been working HARD to ignore the red flags, and they knew it.
Intellectual historian sounds like my kind of gig. Actually, your description sounds a lot like a Volokh Conspiracy commenter, minus the part about being prominent.
I think you should consider the opinions expressed by Trump and Vance on this subject before calling the claim false.
Vance has suggested - actually said outright - that the President should defy the courts, should replace midlevel bureaucrats with people whose first loyalty is to Trump, that we "no longer have a Constitutional republic," etc.
He has said the (Trump) government should seize university endowments and place the schools under its control, and that he would have gone along with Trump's requests and refused to certify the election results.
Rule of law. Right.
You point out some things Obama did that you think were illegal. But the leaders of your party have basically declared that they don't care about the law at all, and if elected they will do as they please.
You have a major beam in your eye. Leave McPherson's mote alone.
He also doesn't read the VC comments.
"I am mad that Dems did a thing I think is lawless which is why it's OK that the right does a thing everyone thinks is lawless." is like top 5 tropes around here.
“He also doesn’t read the VC comments.”
Bernstein? He came onto a thread earlier this year and asked for my employer’s info. So I don’t know where you’re getting that.
I was being facetious - I was less coming at Bernstein and more at this commentariat which is replete with folks openly happy to disregard rule of law. And they all show up on one side of the aisle. And it's not the libertarian side.
I am coming at Bernstein.
David, I will stop bringing up your attempted doxxing if you apologize publicly in front of your Pinochet-loving fans to me below:
"Vance has suggested – actually said outright – that the President should defy the courts,
Biden hasn't?
"should replace midlevel bureaucrats with people whose first loyalty is to Trump,"
That's the way the system is supposed to be -- elections are supposed to have consequences. People unhappy with the bureaucracy should be able to change it.
"that we “no longer have a Constitutional republic,”
We don't. States are supposed to be sovereign on most issues and they aren't.
"He has said the (Trump) government should seize university endowments and place the schools under its control"
Lyndon Johnson did the latter 59 years ago with the Higher Ed Act, and elimination of tax exemptions constitutes most of the proposed "seizing."
Notwithstanding this, how would actually seizing the endowments be any different from NYC seizing the Penn Central's property, i.e. Grand Central Station in preventing it from being torn down?
Or is it only "seizing" when the right does it? Remember that the railroads were paying property taxes while the universities aren't.
Ed is one of those who says you don't care about rule of law because the libs ruined it.
Suffice to say I love to see him try and help Prof. Bernstein.
how would actually seizing the endowments be any different from NYC seizing the Penn Central’s property, i.e. Grand Central Station in preventing it from being torn down?
How do universities differ from railroad stations? Tough one.
How does seizing private property without compensation resemble seizing private property without compensation?
That is a tough question?!?
And from Penn Central v NYC:
" the New York City law does not interfere in any way with the present uses of the Terminal. Its designation as a landmark not only permits but contemplates that appellants may continue to use the property precisely as it has been used for the past 65 years: as a railroad terminal containing office space and concessions. So the law does not interfere with what must be regarded as Penn Central's reasonable expectation concerning the use of the parcel."
By the same token, a Federal law requiring endowments to be spent on student financial aid would not be a "taking" as the reasonable expectation concerning the use of the money was that it would benefit students.
OMG Ed has leveled up to copy pasting passages on legal decisions from
Wikipedia. This is so friggin cute I can’t even
“should replace midlevel bureaucrats with people whose first loyalty is to Trump,”
Bad description. They're policy makers. We elect people to make policy. If you're writing policy then you should be serving the president. Regardless of who it is. If you are making policy and aren't serving the president then the constitution is being circumvented.
Someone should tell Alan McPherson he may want to look into Merrick Garland’s DOJ, Jack Smith, Matthew Colangelo, a certain fat slob DA Bragg, Letitia James, and Fani Willis and her boyfriend, just to name a few. In fact, the entire D.C. Circuit might bear some scrutiny too.
Ah yes, yet another Riva rote repetition of the current day’s talking points from the fringe ultra-right echosphere (which is typically followed by simplistic gratuitous insult to anyone who comments on his lack of value-add). I’m sure I’m not the only one here who notices that signature Riva-bot style (as someone routinely refers to him).
I’ve observed this behavior on a number of blogs, seeming to cluster in the obsessive extremes of far left/far right populism, or fundamentalist religion. I’ve never understood it…don’t see the point, though I do have a couple hypotheses.
Some people try to justify their existence to themselves by leaving a mark on their environments. So, it could be the equivalent of bullet holes in road signs—just simple, sad vandalism, trying to damage something valued by others (this forum). More likely perhaps, Riva’s drive-by spray-painted graffiti is nothing more than gang-tagging freeway overpasses in a sad attempt to impress other members of his tribe.
Oh well, I suppose we should feel lucky it’s exhibited to such a degree here, by only a relative few. (Plus, an Occam’s Razor possibility: Riva’s a paid provocateur, trying to make a living, just putting in his shift. If so, never mind).
With grammar better than most professing his worldview, I’ve given him more second-chances than most. But comes a time when it’s no longer entertaining—just a boring whine not worth the pixels expended. Almost did this the last time I encountered him (couple weeks ago, though I’m not here all that often) but, since this latest is no different from anything he’s ever said, it is finally time to add Riva to my brief list of blocked wastes of time. Goodbye.
"If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”
—David Frum
We are about to see how accurate this is. Because (in re: Trump’s campaign) in the words of Knicks legend Michael Ray Richardson: “the ship be sinking”
It's hard to win democratically when your opponent intentionally replaces the American people with non-European foreigners.
Depending on how you define conservativism, that was abandoned some time ago, and they're just now coming around to democracy.
Plenty of anti-Burkeans on the right around here. Like, they know Burke and hate him. Bob from Ohio is a big one on that front.
I have some hope that if Trump loses, the part of the party that doesn't turn against democracy rediscovers some kind of principled conservativism.
If Trump loses, I guarantee you David, and likely all the Conspirators, will self-identify as never-Trumpers. They may even find it in their hearts to say something about John Eastman. The readers can decide for themselves how genuine that will be.
...and if Trump wins?
Then I expect several posts from Calabresi and Blackman about how Presidential term limits are unconstitutional
Given that the 22nd Amendment is part of the Constitution I doubt it.
I’ll remember you said that.
It’s moot anyways— Trump has committed the greatest sin imaginable in our modern society: he is boring and no longer fun. He’s going down faster than the Mets’ playoff chances. The coping will be something to behold.
When has Biden ever been not boring and fun (discounting falling up stairs)?
When has Harris ever been not boring and fun (discounting her word salad answers and valley girl laugh)?
“When has Harris ever been not boring and fun”
I realize these things are subjective. But you are denying the current reality. Watch Trump’s Mar-a-Lago press conference and watch the recent rally in LV. As I said— coping.
Waiting for the first Harris press conference to decide.
It’s stunning how much stock you huckleberries are putting into this nothingburger. If you think this has any traction with the 80+ million people who are about to vote for VP Harris you have been dining at the same SE Asian restaurants as RFK
Also note Bumble's gallop.
From boring to no press conferences in no time flat.
I see you have begun to count the votes already.
To paraphrase Karl Rove, I am studying reality— judiciously, if you will.
I’m not sure what you’re doing.
Waiting for the first Harris news conference so she can tell us her plans.
LOL, ok. Bless your heart
Hey, no press conference but Harris announced a plan to not tax tips; oh wait she is agreeing with Trump's plan? Who knew she could be so inventive.
Yes— your very online argle bargle is sure to win hearts and minds across vast swaths of the US. Just look at how well JD has been doing! God bless and good luck with all that
Her Las Vegas "rally" was a Gen Z concert. Pathetic.
I hope Harris makes history by being the first half black half Indian politician to get ovarian cancer while in office.
Most of the conspirators are anti-Trumpers. Including Bernstein I believe.
Randy Barnette is pretty mask off these days, and of course Blackman. And whatever is wearing Calabresi these days.
What's notable is the MAGAfication of even many of the the non-Trump folks on the right. And, to be fair, one can see an effect on the left as well (in reaction but also because there's less of a reasonable right to keep them honest).
In the legal profession, if the Supreme Court goes MAGA, openly anti-MAGA lawyers get thin on the ground pretty quick. They will say this or that to suggest a possible legal trim, but assertions the Court is off the rails and illegitimate get hard to find—those seem more likely from Court minority opinions than from ordinary practicing attorneys.
Is that true about Barnett? That's disappointing.
https://x.com/randybarnettttt/status/1822314341145678142
Professor Barnett's Twitter is @RandyEBarnett, not @randybarnettttt
"President Obama has run an amazingly scandal-free administration, not only he himself, but the people around him. He’s chosen people who have been pretty scandal-free." - David Brooks, 2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States
David Brooks-Hahahahahahahaha!
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
Barack Obama and Joe Biden actively participated in the scheme, as McCarthy’s last paragraph above reminds us. This was genuinely impeachable conduct, far, far worse than the contrived grounds for Trump’s two impeachments.- Jack Marshall
Depends what you mean by 'scandal." Brooks and that Wikipedia post are talking about scandal as in financial or related corruption. McPherson was talking about evading/ignoring/breaking/bending the law for the perceived greater good.
"McPherson uses the lens of the Iran-Contra scandal to explore this claim"
As compared to the Bay of Pigs non-scandal?
That was worse, it just was covered up better.
The Kennedy Administration was said to be "running a 'murder, incorporated' down in the Caribbean" and assassinated the popular President of South Vietnam -- I've often wondered if the CIA assassinated Kennedy for genuine patriotic reasons as his administration was coming off the rails that fall.
The difference between the right and left is that the right debates while the left censors -- that's why the left has never done well with talk radio. Much like people will slow down to look at a gristly car crash, people like to hear people say outrageous things, Ann Coulter's made a career of it, as is Tomi Lahren.
In a country of 300+ Million, there has got to be a few cute blondes on the left -- but the left can't debate. The left can't defend what it believes in, and hence no leftwing Rush Limbaughs.
All the left can do is censor...
"I’ve often wondered if the CIA assassinated Kennedy for genuine patriotic reasons as his administration was coming off the rails that fall"
"Coming off the rails that fall?" JFK was only overwhelmingly favored to win Re-erection in 64'
No, the CIA didn't assassinate Kennedy, they'd have put an untraceable poison in one of the "Vitamin" shots the Oval Orifice Physician gave him every day
It was Harvey Lee Oswald, with the Candlestick, I mean Mannlincher-Carcano, in the Texas Schoolroom Suppository.
Not gonna go into all of the evidence, it's like trying to explain that Water is wet to a Mongoloid.
That being said "JFK" is a great movie "Nixon" too, (Love Oliver Stone's work, of course, I was "Born on the 4th of July")
Frank
A rightwing hack objects that someone else doesn't see things through the same far right lens...
That’s “Dr” Hack, than you
David, this isn't an ideological problem in the field of history. The journal has a five year impact factor of 0.9. No one is reading this. I get that it's not an actual junk journal but it's not a notable one either. No one doing peer review for this applying more than the minimum scrutiny.
That doesn't mean you can't point out if it prints something that sucks.
Though as I note above, I'm not sure the OP does a great job doing that.
John Yoo has endorsed the concept of revenge prosecutions. Crimes to be determined later. A classic example of the prior victimhood genre, espoused by Ed among others. I wonder if DB supports that idea as well…?
John Yoo has endorsed the concept of revenge prosecutions.
As has Trump, along with many of his supporters.
The immunity ruling does limit what sort of legal arguments can be used in these revenge prosecutions.
Ah yes the 'look what you made me do' caucus.
More like, time to pay the piper.
When all you have is revenge, everything looks like a nail. You can mutter darkly about payback to your heart’s content— in fact I encourage it. But if you think revenge is a winning vision for the future of this country you are going to be sorely mistaken— unless you plan on discarding the results of the election again?
Donors: what is your positive vision for the country going forward?
Trump: I was right to say that bitch Kamala isn’t black. Also, I am who I am
The philosophy of a domestic abuser is no way to run the country.
Eliding your own agency and choices does not actually absolve you of moral judgement.
I can tell you if Harris wins, I'm not going to go on about how it's payback time. Because my self image includes not being the baddies.
Nobody will be convicted unless a jury finds them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of some crime, and defendants will be able to present a selective prosecution defense if applicable.
I don't see a problem here at all.
And unless the defense comes right out and says it's a revenge prosecution, most people won't even know.
*prosecution
Bernstein: "McPherson uses the lens of the Iran-Contra scandal to explore this claim, by he hardly limits himself to that example. What empirical evidence does he have for this claim? Social science research? Polling data? Nope. Just his subjective impressions based on his understanding of how Republican administrations have behaved versus Democratic administrations."
Also Bernstein: "Okay, so a particular historian made a particularly poorly defended claim. My broader point is that one sees such claims routinely because the academy is such a political monoculture."
On your example,
1. what is your evidence the prisoner swap cost the government money?
2. General Patton, after taking Algeria, tore up the surrender document the State Department had drawn up, which would have called for putting Vichy French soldiers in prison camps, and paroled them instead. Grant did something similar at Appottomax. Are you prepared to say these and other examples, famous and not, were all criminal actions? American commanders in the field have traditionally gotten a fair amount of leeway about how to deal with prisoners of war, including an ability to pardon and parole them if deemed the most appropriate away to handle the exigencies of war.
3. The President has an explicit pardon power. Can Congress really make an end run around that power by prohibiting the President from using money to exercise it?
Frankly, if this is your poster example of an Obama “scandal,” it says a great deal about the substance or lack thereof of your claim. Obama took an action as commander in chief that he believed to be in the best interest of the country and from which he derived no personal gain. It makes no difference whether you or I think this action was wise or not. His constitutional authority as commander in chief, his constitutional pardon authority, and the long history of American field commanders having authority to parole or deal leniently with surrendered or captured enemy soldiers on the spot all suggest that Obama would have serious ground to support that what he did was entirely legal. This is an ordinary interbranch power dispute, much like President Johnson’s firing of his Secrtaty of War against Congress’ wishes. It was no crime and no scandal.
Just noting that the fact you used a flawed example doesn’t make McPherson right here.
Nonetheless, using a case where President Obama released several Guantanamo Bay prisoners in a prisoner exchange despite a statute prohibiting expending government funds to release Guanatamo Bay prisoners as a lead example of scandal in a supposed scandal-ridden administration is just, weird. This tiff between the Executive and Legislative branches here is indistinguishable from countless other ones in our country’s history, regardless of which branch you think should win in any particular dispute. Not only that, I think President Obama has very good, indeed winning arguments for the legality of what he did.
The President is empowered under the Constitution both to grant pardons and reprieves and to act as commander in chief. The idea that Congress can use its spending power to collaterally prevent the President from exercising these core powers strikes me as very likely a losing argument for Congress.
Do you think Congress, disagreeing with a pardon decision, could prohibit the President from ordering a civilian prisoner released by the collateral method of prohibiting spending funds on the release?
I understand that enemy prisoners don’t generally have rights. But I think that even if the Court hadn’t held that habeas positions could be entertained from Guantanamo prisoners, I think that distinction would make no difference here. The Constitution gives the President power to grant pardons. An Act of Congress that purports to use the spending power to stifle that power is not likely to survive a constitutional challenge. And the fact that an enemy prisoner is involved also gives the President a separate power over enemy prisoners as Commander in Chief.
But even if I didn’t think President Obama was legally right here, decisions made in using official powers for what one considers to be the public good that overstep boundaries are completely different from crimes and scandals. Was Eisenhower a criminal for ordering the steel seizures? Roosevelt for enforcing fair trade rules for poultry against the Schecters? Every President has taken official actions that have been checked by courts.
People who have a conscience, a sense of public duty and concern for old-fashioned ideas like truth, honor, and a sense of justice that requires attempting to judge even sones oppoments fairly, understand very well the difference between a President who oversteps based on a sense of public duty and a President who oversteps for personal gain. There is no comparing the two.
In previous comments during the Trump administration, I repeatedly said I thought various actions, like using emergency funds to build border walls and attempting to withhold federal funding from “sanctuary” cities that refused to cooperate with federal authorities on immigration matters, exceeded Congressional authority and were unlawful. But I never said these things were either scandals or crimes. Unlike certain other Trump actions, they were attempts to take public policy too far, not pursuits of personal office, power, or revenge.
Sadly, the National Emergencies Act actually did authorize the diversions. It's a terrible law, under which the only criteria for whether there's an "emergency" is whether the President says there's one.
The word”emergency” itself has a meaning which places limits on the President’s discretion. While Congress often defines terms, when it doesn’t, that doesn’t mean the President is entitled to claim the term means absolutely anything he wants it to mean. Undefined terms either get accepted specialized meanings as recognized legal terms of art, or get their plain, ordinary meanings.
Statutes must be construed according to the common law, not according to the law of Humpty Dumpty.
1) Abusing terrible laws is still abusing power.
2) It's not a terrible law, Congress just assumed when it said emergency the President would listen to that word in the law. That seems a fine assumption to make. Trump is just extraordinary.
3) Now you're back to formalism? I guess Biden pushing student debt forgiveness via a new law is fine now.
The National Emergencies Act does not say that.
If there is no quantitative and little qualitative analysis, the argument lacks rigour and may be dismissed.
I think it very likely true, nonetheless.
Doesn’t seem to be a partisan thing – police, prosecutors and judges routinely disregard the letter of the law when they use police discretion, prosecutorial discretion, or approve plea deals in exchange for testimony against other criminals, or to spare the govt the cost of a trial.
In all these cases, it's done because (in their view) the ends justify the means.
None of those things "disregard the letter of the law."