The Volokh Conspiracy
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Venezuela Illustrates the Perils of "Democratic Socialism"
The Venezuelan experience shows that democracy cannot cure the evils of socialism, and that a democratic socialist system is unlikely to remain democratic for long.

In yesterday's Venezuelan election, the vast majority of the people wanted to remove socialist dictator Nicolas Maduro from power, but the regime remains in control through a combination of violence and fraud. Venezuela's socialist government has turned what used to be one of Latin America's wealthiest nations into an oppressive hellhole so awful that over 7 million people have fled - the largest refugee crisis in the history of the Western Hemisphere. This terrible experience is relevant to the broader debate over "democratic socialism."
One traditional response to evidence that the USSR, communist China, and other communist states demonstrate that socialism leads to poverty and oppression, is the argument that these regimes failed because they were undemocratic. If government control of the economy is combined with democracy instead of dictatorship, then socialism would fulfill the promise of uplifting the working class. Venezuela's history over the last 25 years undercuts such optimism.
To avoid confusion, I should emphasize that the "socialism" referred to here is government control over all or most of the economy (what Marxists call "the means of production"), not merely having a relatively large welfare state. The latter creates dangers of its own, but not of the same type and scale.
Maduro's predecessor Hugo Chavez first came to power in a democratic election in 1998. For a time, electoral democracy was maintained. But, gradually, the government's control over the economy and centralization of power (itself a requirement of socialism), enabled it to suppress opposition and establish a dictatorship. State control over the economy was a key element of this process. For example, the government used its control over food supplies to suppress opposition. If you oppose the ruling party, you are likely to go hungry. In an economy where there are few or no job opportunities outside the state apparatus, regime opponents also risk unemployment.
Meanwhile, far from uplifting the working class, Venezuelan socialism impoverished them. And that process began even before democracy was fully ended.
In a 2019 piece on "The Perils of Democratic Socialism," I outlined some reasons why democracy cannot cure the flaws of socialism, and why a socialist state cannot remain democratic for long, even if it starts out that way. Here's an excerpt where I highlighted the example of Venezuela:
Perhaps democracy will save us from any potential negative effects of bringing most of the economy under government control…. Any aspiring American Lenin or Hugo Chavez will be voted out of office or—better still—never elected in the first place.
Unfortunately, the democratic element of democratic socialism is unlikely to save us from the severe risks of the socialist part. Voters in democratic systems can and do elect dangerous demagogues. Hugo Chavez was democratically elected.
Closer to home, our own voters elected Donald Trump. And he is far from the first illiberal demagogue who ever achieved political success in American history….
A socialist state that controls most of the economy would also make it nearly impossible for voters to acquire enough knowledge to effectively monitor the government. It would greatly exacerbate the already severe problem of voter ignorance that plagues modern democracy. In a world where most voters—for perfectly rational reasons – do not even know basic facts such as being able to name the three branches of the federal government, it is highly unlikely they will learn enough to properly monitor a socialist state. Most of the powers of government would instead fall under the control of politicians, bureaucrats, powerful interest groups, or worse.
Finally, it is unlikely that a democratic socialist state will actually remain democratic in the long run. If the government controls the vast bulk of the economy, it can, over time, use its control over key resources to reward its supporters and suppress opponents. This has, in fact, actually happened in Venezuela, where the government has used such tools as its control over food resources to incentivize support for the regime, and forestall opposition.
For reasons noted in the 2019 piece, if democratic socialists came to power in the US, it would be harder for them to establish a dictatorship than it was for Chavez and Maduro in Venezuela. But that is in large part because we have more obstacles to the establishment of socialism itself than Venezuela did, such as stronger systems of federalism, separation of powers, and judicial review.
It may still be tempting to conclude that Venezuela's tragedy is the result of defects in their culture or the personalities of particular leaders, such as Chavez and Maduro. But socialist governments have led to similar horrific results in many nations around the world, despite differences in culture and leadership. Either socialism's weaknesses are caused by systemic institutional flaws, rather than local idiosyncracies, or the system tends to elevate awful leaders. Most likely, it's a combination of both.
There are, of course, obvious parallels between Maduro's use of violence and fraud to stay in power after losing this election, and Donald Trump's attempts to do the same after he lost in 2020. One major reason why Maduro may well succeed where Trump failed is that the Venezuelan regime's control of the economy and extreme centralization of power makes it easier for it to suppress opposition. Trump did not control the courts and many other key institutions, and he could not threaten opponents with unemployment and denial of food. Thanks to socialism, Maduro does have these tools of coercion available to him. Fans of democratic socialism would do well to consider whether they want Trump or someone like him to be able to wield such power, should he win an election.
Maduro's regime might yet fall. But it will probably take a mass uprising, large-scale defections by the security forces and regime elites, or some combination of both to make it happen. Socialist institutions make it easier for authoritarians to seize and keep power.
Despite some ideological differences, the "national conservative" policies advocated by Trump, J.D. Vance, and others on the right, pose many of the same dangers as socialism - including the use of state control over the economy to suppress opposition. The difference in slogans and flags between the two movements should not blind us to this underlying similarity.
There is another way in which the Venezuelan experience should give pause to the right, as well as the left. As in the similar case of Cuba, conservatives who rightly denounce socialist oppression should not at the same time try to close America's doors to refugees fleeing it. You can't combat socialism while simultaneously turning your back on its victims.
Like their Cuban counterparts, Venezuelan refugees should not be forcibly consigned to poverty and oppression merely because they had the misfortune of being born to the wrong parents in the wrong place. And, like Cubans, Venezuelan migrants can make valuable contributions to our economy and society - if only we would let them.
In sum, the Venezuelan experience should lead people on the left to reject democratic socialism, if they haven't done so already. For their part, right-wingers would do well to reject similar ideas sailing under the flag of nationalism, and adopt a more welcoming attitude to Venezuelan refugees.
NOTE: I have made minor additions to this post.
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Nonsense. It simply illustrates the perils of dictatorship, including dictators that originally came to power through a populist platform in a free and fair election.
True, but also, what use is there in talking sense to a "libertarian" who never met an excuse he couldn't support for denying the franchise to some group or the other? It's a plenty useless definition of liberty that manages to exclude the most important of all rights.
Also, this is someone who's so intellectually stunted, he points to a guy who lost the popular vote, but nevertheless lucked into office through EC affirmative action (the actual bad kind of AA), as a supposed cautionary tale of the perils of democracy! I think the former ASSLAW is, in fact, sending the best they have to offer.
You'd take a right to vote above, say, the right to life? It doesn't do you much good if you're dead.
Voting isn't the most important of all rights, nor is it a fundamental right. It's hardly even a right at all under the Constitution, more like a privilege.
"you won't have to vote anymore. In four years, you wont' have to vote again." -- Donald Trump
It's been simultaneously amusing and frightening to watch the Republican party swing so far rightward that their talking points include emphasizing the republic over the democracy and redefinition of voting as not a right.
I wasn't aware that entities such as Snopes, Vox, the New York Times, and the NAACP were part of the "Republican party." To give a few examples.
https://www.nytimes.com/article/voting-rights-constitution.html
https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/10/14/no-the-right-to-vote-isnt-in-the-us-constitution/
(I think that's as many links as I can post, plenty more to be found through Google)
And yet even Nicolas Maduro is not brazen enough to shout that an opposition leader is "dead on arrival" like Joe Biden did.
Oh, are your knickers in a twist now? I'd say borrow JD's fainting couch, but you might want to give it a thorough cleaning first.
Was that supposed to be clever?
Was "mike petrik" supposed to be different from "Michael P"? Nobody is buying that one.
But since you asked, yes, it was at least as clever as what prompted it. Why should I waste any effort beyond that?
That’s like confusing Mike Johnson with Michael Jordan because they're both famous singers. I mean, CLEARLY there is only one Michael/Mike J in the world.
Instead of even addressing why Joe Biden shouted that Speaker Mike Johnson was “dead on arrival”, the bot went straight for a personal insult. Why is it that the left can’t engage on the substance?
For the same reason they don’t know there are multiple Mikes.
Way to miss the point. Venezuela started with an actual democracy. Venezuela implemented socialism (government control of the means of production. Venezuela's democracy was replaced by a dictatorship. The timing (and causation) is clear. Socialism leads to dictatorship.
Note - I'm not saying that socialism is the only way to get to a dictatorship. But there is no historical example of a community larger than about Dunbar's Number implementing socialism and failing to end in a dictatorship.
Venezuela's unnecessary and tragic failure and subsequent dictatorship is also about populism and cult of personality.
Which also lead to dictatorship just about all the time.
Sarcastr0 — Populism, cult of personality, and kleptocracy. The latter has proved a bridge to connect socialistic autocrats world wide to extensive aid and comfort dished out by capitalist governments and institutions. Banks throughout the world’s most capitalistic societies have rushed to facilitate and enable the depredations of along list of would-be kleptocratic autocrats.
Britain, Switzerland, France, and the U.S., among many others, have been heavily involved. A book detailing the particulars, Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World, was just published by author and Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Anne Applebaum. The Venezuela example figures prominently.
There is no particular focus on Trump in the book, but any reader will struggle to avoid obvious comparisons with autocrats whose practices Applebaum details. I recommend the book.
Rossami — There are plenty of such examples. Some American Indian tribes accomplished what you say can't happen. Some were so successful at it that their success became a propagandistic excuse to destroy their customary practices by law, in the name of fighting socialism. See the Dawes Act of 1887.
One specific example involved the socialistic economic systems of the Couer d'Alene Indians, who after being forced onto a reservation managed collective farming of wheat so successfully prior to WW I that their white capitalist-farming neighbors struggled to compete. Congress parceled some of the reservation out to whites at low prices, and by law and policy insisted that thereafter the Indians farm only private allotments, as proper individualistic capitalists.
Throughout the end of the 19th century anti-socialistic politics and plain greed delivered a toxic combination to put an end to successful socialistically governed Indian cultures.
When I first became aware of that history in the 1970s, the records and accounts to describe what happened remained widely scattered. I don't know to what extent that situation may have improved. Someone who would know is historian Patricia Nelson Limerick. You could get in touch with her if you want to find out more. She is a leading scholar. You could discover her present contact information via Google, and maybe a phone call or two.
“Nonsense” is a word that should be reserved for people who toy with dictatorship, believing the one-two punch of essentially unlimited control combined with sweet promises to use that power wisely.
You have nothing to give you confidence, and millenia of contrary examples, thousands of instances, involving many tens of billions of test “subjects”.
All your succeeding socialist states in Europe not coincidentally survive with, like it or not, the big hand of the US on their shoulders as backup. Not because of any inherent stable goodness to vox populi vox dei. This will offend. So what.
Again, you have zero evidence for long-term stability on its own.
The democracy that I live in and the democracy where I grew up have both been democracies since before the first white man set foot in the territory of what is now the US, thank you very much.
I don't think the people subjugated by those colonialist empires would agree.
If you're referring to a democracy in Europe, it wasn't a welfare state until long after the U.S. became a superpower.
But they haven't been independent democracies that entire time. Of course, democracy didn't start with the U.S. Greece and some localities in India, at least, had democracy long ago. And, yes, places like Iceland, the Faroe Islands, and the Isle of Man, set up democratic governing bodies long ago, but Iceland, the Faroe Islands, and the Isle of Man also spent long periods under the control of another, non-democratic state.
Just a quibble. The democracies where you live and where you grew up are not the same democracies set up and ruling since before North America was visited by Europeans. Or, depending on the situation, perhaps it's more accurate to say those democracies, albeit currently ruled by a democratic institution set up many centuries ago, were subservient to a foreign, non-democratic power. And, so, the people living there were not living in a democracy in any meaningful sense during the whole time.
(Of course, it could then also be argued that the first true democracy was Finland in 1909 when it became the first democracy to remove gender and racial obstacles to voting, i.e., adopting truly universal adult voting.)
NOVA Lawyer — Worthy points. Along those same lines, note that the democracy practiced at the time of the founding in the erstwhile confederate regions of the U.S. is not the democracy practiced there now. For more than a century, lamentations over that change have continued to resound.
Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy are not the same thing.
Maduro "came to power through a populist platform in a free and fair election"?! Really?! You might want to check on that...
Chavez did. Maduro was Chavez's successor.
Ah yes. That J. D. Vance, Yale law grad, Marine, son of a drug addict. He's a real threat to "muh democracy."
I get tired of these Ilya Somin posts. I'm extremely close to deleting my RSS feed for Volokh Conspiracy. It just feels like the Ilya Conspiracy. Really tired of it.
Thanks for sharing.
No... don't go
You should demand a refund.
Well - - - - - -
Bye.
Which of these attributes is supposed to preclude him from being a threat to democracy?
Where Marine = newsletter intern and Yale law grad = affirmative action beneficiary
As I've said before: his posts aren't worth reading, but the comments can be interesting.
Let's be clear...I'd be far more worried about the authoritarian policies of Kamala Harris than anything JD Vance has proposed.
Just to review...while AG in California, Harris faced multiple court orders to reduce the prison population due to its overcrowding. She basically ignored them...then one of her office's responses to the court order was...
"We can't free those (non-violent) prisoners, we're relying on them for cheap labor at a fraction of the minimum wage".
So, if you're worried about authoritarianism...worry about Kamala Harris.
Evidence? Link?
Sure. Here's one on her obstruction
https://prospect.org/justice/how-kamala-harris-fought-to-keep-nonviolent-prisoners-locked-up/
Here's her offices argument that they needed to keep the cheap prisoner labor.
“Extending 2-for-1 credits to all minimum custody inmates at this time would severely impact fire camp participation—a dangerous outcome while California is in the middle of a difficult fire season and severe drought,” lawyers for Harris wrote in the filing, noting that the fire camp program required physical fitness in addition to a level of clearance that allowed the felon to be offsite.
Not only that, they noted, draining the prisons of “minimum custody inmates” would deplete the labor force both internally and in local communities where low-level, non-violent offenders worked for pennies on the dollar collecting trash and tending to city parks. A federal three-judge panel ordered both sides to confer about the plaintiffs’ demands, and the state agreed to extend the 2-for-1 credits to all eligible minimum security prisoners.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kamala-harris-ag-office-tried-to-keep-inmates-locked-up-for-cheap-labor
What's the big deal?
Thomas Jefferson owned slaves too.
Dammit Armchair too quick for me.
The Prospect's a perfect source for ReaderY!
I mean, Harris is a freaking nightmare.
Liberal authoritarian is her name. Willing to use the power of the state to enforce her political whims, and ignore court orders and other limits on her power. Just...zero...in terms of ethics.
Some of Harris’ prosecutorial shenanigans are well-known by now. In 2010, a California Superior Court judge blistered Harris’ DA office for violating defendants’ rights by covering up detrimental information about a drug-lab technician. The judge concluded that prosecutors working under Harris had failed to fulfill their constitutional duty to tell defense attorneys information about prosecution witnesses that might challenge their credibility. The failure of Harris’ prosecutors led to the dismissal of more than 600 drug cases.
https://nypost.com/2020/09/03/kamala-harris-rampant-prosecutorial-abuses/
They're not well-known to ReaderY! He seems baffled that Harris had any problems as AG. He'll be back along any minute now to demand a cite for her jailing the parents of truant kids.
So here you go, R_Y. You get HuffPo this time.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kamala-harris-truancy-arrests-2020-progressive-prosecutor_n_5c995789e4b0f7bfa1b57d2e
Willing to use the power of the state to enforce her political whims, and ignore court orders and other limits on her power. Just…zero…in terms of ethics.
This argument might have some purchase... if she were running against anyone but Trump.
Trump, unlike the Biden-Harris administration, at least respected court orders that struck down his policies.
Indeed.
What do you mean by "respect"?
He issued a number of different "Muslim Bans" until the courts stopped striking them down. Biden did much the same thing with his inane student loan write-offs.
However, Trump didn't dare the Justices to enforce their own judgments, like his newly minted VP running mate, JD Vance, has proposed:
“I think Trump is going to run again in 2024,” he said. “I think that what Trump should do, if I was giving him one piece of advice: Fire every single midlevel bureaucrat, every civil servant in the administrative state, replace them with our people.”
“And when the courts stop you,” he went on, “stand before the country, and say—” he quoted Andrew Jackson, giving a challenge to the entire constitutional order—“the chief justice has made his ruling. Now let him enforce it.” . . .
“We are in a late republican period,” Vance said later, evoking the common New Right view of America as Rome awaiting its Caesar. “If we’re going to push back against it, we’re going to have to get pretty wild, and pretty far out there, and go in directions that a lot of conservatives right now are uncomfortable with.”
Tired: Harris is a left-wing soft-on-crime Soros acolyte who wants to let all the criminals out of prison and even bailed them all out.
Wired: Harris is an authoritarian who was too hard on convicted criminals.
She's inconsistent, yes, but you have the order backwards. Her revealed preference when her job was to be a prosecutor was to exceed what was sentenced. After she left that job, she spouted the garden-variety Soros shill lines that the hard left loves.
It's the order in which these attacks on Harris have been made.
Dave is pointing out just some of her high points, he forgot to mention her fascination with bold ideas like taxing you bastards back to the stone age, and banning cars.
I don’t think Harris’s alleged inconsistency is what was being parodied, dummy.
It depends in part on the politics of the defendant, and the nature of the conduct at issue.
A pro-life activist engaging in standard undercover journalistic techniques and guilty of embarrassing Planned Parenthood? Put him in prison, 15 felony counts.
Malicious violence and mayhem at BLM riots? No way, let's help raise bail money and defense funds to get them out.
Illegal immigration? Not even a crime.
This is what Kamala Harris stands for.
The odd thing is, that's typical of authoritarians. They use the power of the state for their own benefit, while often benefiting criminals who are out.
Under Maduro's Venezuela, crime is rampant. Kidnappings, murder, etc. Meanwhile the state comes down hard on certain groups it decides it doesn't like, while exploiting prisoners and other.
It's so pure...
Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, Harris is at the same time too strong and too weak
You're such a predictable political hack. You must want a job from the plum book.
Weird accusation. I don't think posting on the VC is a KSA.
But what is your particular issue with my point?
That's only violent criminals where she is soft on crime.
Best response to a court order to free prisoners was in Savannah, GA.
Some fool judge said a certain number of bad guys had to be set upon the population, and the sheriff wrote a letter to the editor (it WAS a while back), saying his deputies were going through the records trying to pick the lesser threats. The next day there was a letter telling the sheriff it would be OK to let the really bad guys loose; just make it during daylight and tell the citizens where and when. The author reminded the sheriff that the town squares where the militia was to assemble still all had lots of trees.
This particular order went all the way to the SCOTUS (Brown v. Plata).
Logically, the best solution would've been to build and staff more prisons. That of course, didn't happen.
The second best solution would be to release some of the non-violent, low risk offenders early. But these were the very inmates that the State of California was exploiting for gardening, trash pickup, etc...because they were low risk and could be trusted outside. So the State of California argued "we can't let THEM out...they're useful". Which is so twisted in a certain way.
That's how a sane society takes care of its 13%ers.
Please, please stop helping like this.
Anti-crime policies are both correct, and an area where people continue to trust Republicans more than Democrats. Trying to hit Kamala Harris from the left is bad policy and bad politics.
But he's Armchair Lawyer.
This isn't about being anti-crime.
This is about being authoritarian, and using the power of the state in an unjust and unreasonable way.
The argument that "we can't let these low risk non violent prisoners go because they're just so darn useful as cheap labor....so, we'll not prosecute the dangerous murderers and rapists"...that's authoritarian as hell.
So your deep concern about authoritarian tendencies demands you bash Harris to boost Trump? Peculiar. What would lead anyone to think that way?
The fact that Harris is a typical authoritarian, and Trump demonstrably isn't?
I mean, look at the main complaint the left has about his Covid policy: He didn't try to force people to get vaccinated!
Typical dictator move, not forcing people...
Because, it's the truth.
If you look at the actual record, Harris is authoritarian. Trump isn't.
Harris likes using the power of the state to enforce her will, even against court orders. If the government screws up, there's no mea culpa...its hide, defend, we did nothing wrong. Even if it means innocent people stay in jail.
Trump was given the best excuse to be authoritarian...the Covid crisis. He could've cracked down like so many states and countries did. Buthe wasn't. He was the opposite,
If you REALLY care about authoritarianism...Trump is a much better choice. Harris, even given minimal power, has been seen to be abusive with it.
Armchair, a deadly pandemic is a thankfully-rare instance where authoritarian emergency activity is not only justified, but ethically mandatory. Survivors of this pandemic, if they are stupid, will not recognize how bad it was, or how much worse it could have been.
The Covid pathogen could have become one with capacity to kill a substantial fraction of everyone. Instead, it killed merely a moderate fraction among a narrower demographic—deadly enough, however, to kill during approximately three years, among about one-sixth of the nation's population, more people than all this nation's wars combined have killed during a discontinuous interval many times longer.
It takes moral rot—of the sort Trump promoted—to continue to minimize such a catastrophe, simply because you yourself did not succumb to it. It takes stupidity not to realize that your personal escape was a matter of luck. It takes folly to suppose Trump's example of feckless mis-management ought to become a model for future policies under similar circumstances.
Had the Covid pandemic been merely twice as virulent as it turned out to be, and had it affected all demographics alike, folks practicing your style of advocacy would have taken their lives in their hands to say one word in public against authoritarian public health controls. A future visitation as baleful as that is not only possible, but at some point likely.
Thus, stop being stupid about Covid, and instead confine your pro-authoritarian critique to Trump's other practices. Tell us how benign for American constitutionalism have been Trump's torrential output of lies; his Court packing to strip women of rights and privacy; his political purges of anyone who disagrees; his attacks on education, expertise, and knowledge; his promise of concentration camps to come; his pledge to execute mass deportations; his kleptocratic tax policies; his encouragement of racism; his unprecedented felony convictions and indictments; and his undoubted coup attempts, which remain ongoing.
You Armchair, along with most of the MAGA types who comment on this blog, are a disgraceful pro-authoritarian advocate. You should be chastened, but you can't be, because you approve of every reckless imposition Trump is trying to inflict on this nation. The authoritarian malice in it thus becomes invisible to you and your benighted ilk. You think it good policy, because you like it. Shame on you all.
“Instead, it killed merely a moderate fraction among a narrower demographic—deadly enough, however, to kill during approximately three years, among about one-sixth of the nation’s population,”
Nation’s population: About 330 million. So, a sixth of that would be 55 million. I think I’d have noticed over fifty million people dying over the course of three years. But let’s check the numbers.
2020, 3.38 million
2021, 3.46 million
2022, 3.27 million
Total, 10.11 million, 3 percent, a bit over 1/32 of the nation’s population. And, of course, most of those didn't die from Covid.
You, sir, are a moron.
Well, maybe you just confused a "sixth" and a "sixtieth"?
but he IS also a moron (with fascist sympathies... re covid lockdown)
Ersatz — If you find yourself within an existentially threatening pandemic, you will not utter a peep against authoritarian policies to control it. You will join everyone else to demand such policies.
It does not require fascist sympathies to understand that. It requires only insight into the nature of mortal fear.
Lathrop may be a self-important crank who writes pompously and at great length, but you completely misread what he wrote. He did not say that it killed one sixth of the population.
He said that it killed, among about one sixth of the population, more people than all this nation’s wars combined.
I assume he means the elderly/infirm. So his point is that even though it primarily impacted one segment of the population (which amounted to 1/6th of the total), it killed more people than all our wars combined. I’m not sure what the point of that comparison is — after all, wars generally only impact a segment of the population too — but it’s not a claim that it killed 55 million people.
"Among about" is a typical semi-literate construction which I took to just redundantly mean "about". I assumed Lathrop intended it that way because his whole point would be ludicrous if he didn't.
It really makes no sense to care that a cause of death kills people within a sixth of the population. Skydiving kills people within that sixth of the population. Lightning strikes kill people within that sixth of the population. Are they looming threats that justify authoritarian action? No, of course not.
The only way you can pretend to justify authoritarian measures against a disease is if it's killing a truly enormous number of people. So the interpretation that had a truly enormous number of people dying was the only one that made any sense of his argument.
The problem with his argument given the actual numbers, is that Covid wasn't even the leading cause of death during the pandemic, except for a few weeks when it was peaking.
In 2020, the leading causes of death were, respectively, Cancer, and Heart disease. Covid was a distant third.
In 2021? The same.
In 2022? A distant fourth.
So, do cancer and heart disease justify authoritarian measures? That's where Lathrop's argument leads, given the real numbers.
Only the extreme number suggested by my interpretation of his awkward construction would make any sense of his argument, unless you assume he thinks authoritarian measures are always justified.
Perhaps he does think that?
Bellmore — Apparently Nieporent did not take care of you already.
You write at length only to ease your embarrassment at being so aggressively rude, after being so obtusely stupid.
None of the imaginary crap you attribute to me is even slightly similar to anything I wrote. That's all you, and thus peculiarly illustrative of the way your mind works. Of course, no one can blame you for the embarrassment.
Bellmore — Just took down my reply. Nieporent took care of you already.
Armchair, a deadly pandemic is a thankfully-rare instance where authoritarian emergency activity is not only justified, but ethically mandatory.
Because such activity was used during the Asian flu pandemic of 1957, the Hong Kong flu pandemic of 1968, and the swine flu pandemic of 2009, right?
Poor commie, pushing the woman who brought slavery to Califirnia. Or do you think extending prison terms (so free men) explicitly to exploit them for uncompensated labor is different.
Yeah, not sure if the law and order lock them up party is going to be able to turn on a dime for this one Armchair.
Oh, they’ll try. Just like you did. But I’d be surprised if that kind of obvious inconsistency is going to do much more than make everyone wonder when exactly you lost all of your shame.
What Kamala did wasn't "Law and Order".
It's what typical Democrats do when they get power. Abuse it.
A willingness to obey and enforce the law isn't authoritarianism.
Authoritarianism is in many ways the opposite...it uses the power of the state to enforce one's will, often against the laws and systems of checks and balances. Ignores court orders, political enemies are hit with selective investigations, and so on.
Haha you support Trump, yelling about obeying courts and laws does not fly when you ignore his conviction and all his other lawbreaking.
And this is not really nearly as stark an issue as you make it. It’s a hard issue! Harris was not the only one grappling with it, nor California the only state.
Naw, your passion rings false.
Great comment. I really appreciate how you can peer into an anonymous online person's soul and judge their sincerity.
It's like your super power.
Keep up the good work! Surely the State will reward you.
It is. Strawman0's second favorite argument.
"it uses the power of the state to enforce one’s will,"
" political enemies are hit with selective investigations,"
This describes the current Biden-Harris administration and their allies.
Make no doubt about it, the Trump investigations were lawfare and selective prosecutions at their finest. This is authoritarian and unjust.
Sounds great now for you, but this is how leftist-governments like Venezuela get started.
I mean, this just gives the game away, eh?
You cry authoritarianism, but it only counts if you decide that's what it is. There's no facts here; your concern is purely manufactured.
It's not concern about authoritarianism, it's just bog-standard partisanship.
Armchair — Nope. Authoritarian leaders everywhere get started when they drift toward kleptocracy, and thereafter must abuse power increasingly to avoid exile, prison, or worse. Ostensible ideology matters less than ideologues suppose.
Leftist kleptocrats look for, and find, eager supporters among right-wing bankers, corporatists, and other anti-democratic enablers world-wide. During business hours, anti-democratic right-wing institutionalists remain agnostic about the politics of whoever may be shoveling wealth in their direction. Except for authoritarian tenets themselves, modern authoritarian leaders have given up the sloppy pro-ideological habits practiced by less-evolved predecessors during former eras.
Indeed, if you're warning of socialism leading to dictatorship, and your concern in this election is with Donald Trump or Vance, you've got some serious problems. There may be a lot of reasons for disliking Trump or Vance, but socialist tendencies isn't one of them. Harris, on the other hand...
Remember 4 years ago, when Somin was backing Biden? Who then tried to make an actual communist who advocated nationalizing banks into the Comptroller of the Currency? The man has no self awareness at all. None.
Who Should Libertarians Vote For in 2020? A Soho Forum Debate
Here you go, Somin urging Libertarians to vote for Joe Biden, four years ago. He's first up.
And this is the guy warning us about socialism. No self awareness at all.
You have long ago given up any standing to say much about libertarians.
The other guy is socialist is tired and you trot out stuff that was tried while your ignore all the awful stuff Trump tried.
Great comment, is it too late for him to delete his post?
He gave up his standing long ago and should be forbidden from speaking any and all things libertarian!
Not only that, he uses tired old memes that are no longer officially approved criticisms! He needs to search a .gov site and get approved opinions. I can't believe they haven't already been provided! How did you get yours so quickly?
He's got the AI extension that rewrites his posts for him. Only downside is that it compiles a social credit score on the original before the changes, but he's the last person who needs to worry about that feature... [/sarc]
One might as well inveigh against international postal systems on grounds they inevitably lead to Ponzi schemes.
Is the control a lot of so-called right-wing authoritarian leaders exert over the economy really any less?
Lot’s stop pretending that thieves and grifters have ideological preferences or that there kinds of regimes they’ll keep their hands off.
All political and economic systems have weaknesses. Thieves and grifters will find and exploit them. IngSoc really isn’t different from the other two ideologies. It isn’t the ideological trappings that’s fundamentally the problem.
It certainly is in part. A state’s ownership and control of the an economy’s means of production cannot work. Voters will eventually rebel if they can. All too often they can’t. Social democracy is tenable. Democratic socialism is not.
The problem essentially is that the government inevitably grows in power if there are not power centers outside it to push back against that growth. The private economy is one such power center, and socialists set out to destroy it. Similarly religion.
When a heavy-handed socialist, or communist, looks at business and thinks, "Gee, those are bad guys out for themselves. We should take away all their control and run it from one place!" just who the hell do they imagine will strive to inhabit that place?
Javier Milei, the economist-turned-President of Argentina has enjoyed effusive praise on this site, including from Somin. It has labeled him as "the world's first libertarian president," a probably fair assessment. Milei is an outspoken supporter of Donald Trump. What can he see that Somin and the effete pseudo-intellectuals in this country cannot? Perhaps Milei has not spent enough hours in the faculty lounge.
Why does Somin engage in this incessant, buffoonish anti-Trump screeds? Is he auditioning for a job at MSNBC? They can't be with the goal of winning anyone over. I think he's just making weak self-rationalizations to allow him to vote for a Marxist like Kamala Harris.
His gratuitous and unfounded smears are silly.
He sounds like Joe Scarborough.
I don't recall any effusive praise from Prof. Somin of Javier Milei. Can you point me to a few examples?
He got mentioned as "libertarian-leaning" with economic policies recognizable to American libertarians like Somin. I did not find anything else at the Volokh Conspiracy, although Reason at large probably liked him well enough.
Included that last paragraph given that Somin and Milei appear to disagree on Trump.
Ilya Somin is not an "it".
Marxist like Kamala Harris
Still nothing substantive yet, eh?
Gotta stick to the oldies for now, I guess. At least you're not making it weird, just dumb.
Won't play with the under 40 crowd, but it'll be a tonic for the troops at least.
Great comment!
The happiest, most successful countries on the planet are democracies and they are also (by American standards) socialist. And they have been that way for years.
Such as?
I think the only example you could semi try to point to is Scandinavia. (For nonracists libs sure love continuously singling out white people as the moral exemplars) And theres multiple issues even with that. Falling test scores, massive societal problems bubbling up, cultural differences between what different populations define as happy, and until very recently lily white homogeneous populations as the most likely cause of their vaunted stability and contentment.
All other socialist and semisocialist countries have even more obvious problems especially outside the Western European bubble.
Socialist (by American standards) and actually socialist are two very different things. Venezuela is actually socialist, and is certainly not a happy or successful country.
Socialist (by American standards) and actually socialist are two very different things. Venezuela is actually socialist, and is certainly not a happy or successful country.
Socialist, by American standards, is not nationalized industry. It is a social safety net that greatly exceeds ours, includes government support for pre-K child care, greater paid time off, especially parental leave, greater unemployment benefits, universal healthcare, and so on.
Venezuela is an actual socialist economy, by the original definition of the term. While maybe not all business and industry is nationalized, the oil industry, its major economic resource, is. I think (but am not sure) that the government also engages in major interventions like price and wage controls that modern economies rarely use. And yes, these things do not work well. Add in the kind of corruption that autocracies always have, and it leads to enormous suffering.
Socialist, by American standards, is an industry being so tied up in regulations that it's not allowed to set it's own prices, or determine the nature of the product it will sell. That's government control of the means of production. Remind you of any law enacted during the Obama administration?
Name one.
Start with Denmark. Norway. And go on. In fact almost any Western democracy would fit the bill.
And all at least until very recently lily white. Laundry's done capt. I think you should take those robes and hood out of the dryer before they start to wrinkle.
Did you really mean to say out loud that black people are ruining the USA?
I'm just pointing out that when leftoids talk about countries they admire they almost invariably point to lily white ones.
Nah, man, they love Wakanda too!
OK, and fictional black ones, too.
Any thoughts on why it's these '"lily white" countries that seem to make up the developed world?
Jarad Diamond has some ideas on that score.
I think it would be fair to say that, if you had somehow swapped the populations of Africa and Europe in prehistory, industrial civilization would still have begun in Europe, eventually. Having seasons, and needing to store massive amounts of food every year or die, really contributes to social development.
Pretty old history, but you’ve never been one to be interested criticism of a source you like.
Main point - the answer is colonization. We got to develop ourselves roughly the same way the antebellum south got to be so cultured.
Doesn’t mean anyone today is to blame, but it sure as shit does mean blaming countries that aren’t white for not being civilized is a fucked up thing to do.
So, Europe was the only place that could have done colonization? How is that?
Historically, if the Chinese hadn’t deliberately turned their back on the world, THEY probably would have kicked things off, not Europe.
Anyway, I thought you were asking “Why” Europe, not “How” Europe. Colonization is more of a "how" answer, not "why"; The developed world had to already have become somewhat developed to embark on the age of exploration/colonization.
Historically, if the Chinese hadn’t deliberately turned their back on the world, THEY probably would have kicked things off, not Europe
But they didn't. And after a bit the Opium Wars happened and they got a taste of Europe's imperial ambitions themselves.
To deny colonization is a why is to pretend colonizers have no agency. They did.
Now, Venezuela actually had a chance to be an exception - they have a shitload of oil. They could have gone the way of UAE. But they went for populist authoritarianist socialism instead.
But who denied colonization here? I haven't seen ANYBODY deny that colonization happened.
"Now, Venezuela actually had a chance to be an exception – they have a shitload of oil. They could have gone the way of UAE. But they went for populist authoritarianist socialism instead."
I'm... practically speechless. Ok, the UAE isn't populist, I'll give you that. I'm kind of unclear as to how a hereditary oligarchy is better than populism.
From Freedom House:
"The United Arab Emirates (UAE) is a federation of seven emirates led in practice by Abu Dhabi, the largest by area and richest in natural resources. Limited elections are held for a federal advisory body, but political parties are banned, and all executive, legislative, and judicial authority ultimately rests with the seven hereditary rulers. The civil liberties of both citizens and noncitizens, who make up an overwhelming majority of the population, are subject to significant restrictions."
To be fair, Venezuela is no prize in their ratings, either.
Slightly better on persona liberty, they get dinged relative to the UAE on political liberty on account of having less fair elections for a legislature that actually has power, instead of only moderately unfair elections for a purely advisory body with no power at all.
I'd call that six of one and a half dozen of the other, personally.
But the idea that Venezuela would aspire to be as free as the UAE is crazy. As wealthy, maybe, but that's just where the oil was, has nothing to do with their political system.
I don't think Amos is planning to highlight colonialism when he posts: "I’m just pointing out that when leftoids talk about countries they admire they almost invariably point to lily white ones."
He's trying to say the left is racist. By denying history.
Re: UAE I meant as to being independent of colonial legacy.
I took it as a given I didn't mean Venezuela would turn into a Muslim monarchy.
I didn't take that as highlighting racism, but instead pointing out that the countries they most admire conspicuously aren't 'multicultural'.
This isn't an accident, the sort of social cohesion you need to people to tolerate a high tax welfare state is dependent on most people being culturally alike; You don't get people being upset about being taxed to subsidize an out-group if there isn't an out-group.
Maybe you could wish people weren't like that, but they are.
It's not an accident *because of the history of colonialism* not some deep sociological issue with diversity.
The 'people are racist so you can't have a diverse welfare state' is an unsupported white supremacist talking point.
I'd never noticed that white supremacists were mourning that people were too racist to embrace the welfare state, but maybe you have more acquaintance with them than I do. It would be hard for you to have less.
You believe the Bell Curve remains good science, say the Camp of Saints is predictive, and push The Great Replacement.
Denmark and Norway are neither socialist nor more successful than the U.S.
Other than that, though, great point!
Exactly right.
To be fair, this depends on what definition of socialism you are using.
Democratic Socialism is also a brand that just means a high tax high benefit high regulation state.
But Venezuela is not that kind of socialism. It’s the state owns all the businesses style.
Thankfully increasingly rare these days.
That's a Social Democracy not Democratic Socialism.
Other than being 100% wrong, great comment!
And it's not really high regulation either, counties like Denmark have fewer government regulations on businesses than the US. The main difference is that *starting* a business is easier in the US, but once the business is going it would be easier to run under the Danish system. And the regulation they do have is more transparent and efficient than the US, bureaucrats have less discretion in things and it's just a matter of meeting some objective criteria, which leaves little room for cronyism and political favoritism. Something we are unlikely to see in the US anytime soon.
I'll back down on regulations and Denmark. You seem to know what you're talking about, and seem sincere and not outcome-oriented.
And I agree with your below that the Nordic model is not something the US is going to adopt anytime soon for both political and practical reasons.
I do think for consistency we should use the definition of socialism Prof. Somin is using, but I understand those who are getting it wrong - Europe does love it's Democratic Socialism brand!
Yeah, I try not to use the term socialism for the European/Nordic model although I do agree with Jesus on democratic socialism vs social democracy.
Going with the US's favorite democratic socialist (Sen. Sanders) the end goal still seems to be state control of the means of production, just achieving thaylt via purely democratic means rather than the Marxist workers' revolution and dictatorship of the proletariat. It's also the road Venezuela went down, although AFAIK they are the only country to try it this extent so you can't really draw any general conclusions from a single data point.
One thing I got from Sanders in his presidential runs is he knew where he wanted to go, but didn't much think about how to get there. I guess he was planning on massive coattails.
Suffice to say, I was not a fan. I'm a boring incrementalist institutionalist liberal, not a revolutionary one.
Chavez didn't rise to power democratically. And saying he stayed in power democratically misapprehends Latin America's thin democracy for anything like our system.
The political science term is not thin democracy but I can't find it right now. It's not every country over there, but the phenomenon is weak institutions, widespread corruption and general indifference to democracy as a civic system.
People vote, but no one thinks their vote will count.
No. You are confusing the Democratic Socialists, a fringe party that favors actual socialism, with Social Democrats, a party that favors free markets coupled with a fairly robust welfare state.
To be sure, I was unaware of the distinction. My point was that while I understand why people might rope Europe's systems into this discussion, that isn't correct.
We'll never see the Nordic model in the US, at least not in my lifetime. The middle-class tax rates would be political suicide for whomever proposed them.
The Nordic model also involves White heterogeneity, a State church, a Monarchy, massive fossil fuel extraction, reasonable election security and abortion restrictions.
Vote election would be political suicide for the Federal governing classes. It would probably get you suicided by the FBI.
Right-wingers who compare the U.S. to European nations commit a common error. They posit a U.S. model approximately equivalent to Texas, but then attribute to that model substantial well-being generated outside it—mainly in the Northeast and on the West Coast. (Those regions retain a less-individualist culture—it originated in the Northeast, and followed Northeasterners who migrated west).
If national policies did not continuously suck wealth out of the Northeast and West Coast, to support less-successful but more-individualist regions elsewhere, the comparisons would be stark. They would favor even more obviously the more-European-like and less-individualist regions over the others.
By almost every measure of personal well-being, the Northeast is the region to live in the U.S., if you can afford it. The reason affordability problems in the Northeast trouble those living elsewhere, is because to live in more-individualistic regions works against accumulating wealth sufficient to emigrate to the Northeast. Thus, to try to subsist in Texas, or Idaho, or Alabama, or South Carolina, tends to cut you and your offspring off from economic opportunities to enjoy superior higher education, better healthcare, better housing, better personal safety, and various other regional advantages typical of subsistence in the Northeast.
Thus, it has become trivially easy for native Northeasterners to transplant to the nation's individualist regions, but damnably difficult for them to go back. That happens especially if they too much prolong their residence outside their native culture and economy. To subsist for long in a less-expensive economy increases the challenge to return to a more-expensive one.
Failure to take note of such regional disparities within the U.S. has undermined ability to compare accurately U.S. national cultural and economic outcomes with those in Europe. A national approach to comparison necessarily blurs by averaging any regional differences in factors included among the intended subjects of comparison.
Of course, that has not prevented pro-individualist commenters from championing their comparative economic and cultural disadvantages as if they were virtues—because what they get, they get more cheaply—especially after subsidies from elsewhere. Cut those subsidies off, and arguments about the relative merits of individualist economics and the other kinds would look notably different.
Or we could try Democratic Authortarianism?
"You won’t have to do it anymore. Four more years, you know what? It’ll be fixed, it’ll be fine. You won’t have to vote anymore, my beautiful Christians"
Of course, at that point, is it even democratic? You hillbillies would sacrifice everything to own the libs. And I get to watch all this in real time. Is why I no longer subscribe to cable. I get honeybooboo and duck empire all in this shithole blog
This is the new version of "Trump says he'll be a dictator," isn't it?
Yeah, that's really dictatorial, telling your supporters that you'll fix what they're worried about, so they can go back to politics not being desperately important.
Is that what he said or how you took it? The interesting thing about Trump is that he says things that people can take to be their own ideas. It the trait of the confidence man. You see him fixing things. Some see him saying he arrange so election don't matter and MAGA will always win. I think he doesn't care after 2024 and if he not running elections are not important to him.
It is what he said: That he'd fix it, and we'd be able to go back to not voting.
What he certainly didn't say is that we wouldn't be permitted to vote. Just that we wouldn't have to.
“Fix” what, exactly?
And how is “fixing” things once and for all compatible with democracy?
No, he didn't say "won't be permitted to vote" (but I'm sure you'd find a way to spin that, too!), but Mod4 didn't say he did.
Look, we all know that what really Trump meant was to tell his audience a bunch of bullshit in hopes they'd give him their votes. A different bunch of bullshit than he told the last group, or the next group--it doesn't matter to him.
Will he do 1/10 of what he talks about if re-elected? Probably not. But why take that risk? Why set such a precedent? That's just dangerous and shortsighted.
Why take such a risk?
Well, setting aside that you're worried about a 10th of what you imagine him to be talking about, because you give everything he says the worst possible interpretation...
Maybe because we're worried that Harris will do 1/10th of what SHE talks about?
I alone can fix it is actually quite an authoritarian thing to say.
Yes! Nailed it!
Great comment!
It's the most normal thing in the entire world for a politician to say. So, yes, it's "authoritarian" from an anarchist perspective, but from a democratic perspective it's totally baseline.
No, it's not very normal.
It's about individual authority, and special ability. That's cult of personality stuff, and you're not going to find it coming up very often from either side of the aisle. I'm the best to fix it, sure. But I *alone?* much more rare.
With one exception.
I can't think of any successful politician anywhere who ran on the idea that he couldn't solve any problems, and anyway, his opponent could solve them just as well.
You're talking about 'I'm the best to fix it.' Something I explicitly distinguished from 'I alone can fix it' in the comment above. You've gotten worse at reading lately.
-Alone implies personal authority.
-Alone sets oneself apart not just from one's opponent, but from everyone.
You are just so desperate to view Trump as a dictator in waiting that it's pathetic. And equally desperate to ignore any threat from the left.
I mean, it's not just the one quote.
Trump talks like an authoritarian, Brett.
How long you gonna put in this kind of work? He didn't mean it; it was a joke; he actually meant this; that's out of context; that's actually a normal thing to say.
Everyone can tell what's going on with you but you.
Only Trump can end wars in one day. Only him.
In your 2019 piece you argue that the Scandinavian countries are not "democratic socialism", largely on the basis that they aren't authoritarian shitholes. If your predictor is defined in terms of your outcome, then the relationship between predictor and outcome is assumed.
I say this as someone who agrees with you that Chavez (and thus Maduro) plundered Venezuela and that a huge part of the problem was the massive drop in productivity that occurred when the ideologically-picked state employees took over a lot of the economic engine of the country. That is to say I agree with you that Venezuela is a strong argument against a centrally planned economy and an argument in favour of markets.
No, he argued that they were not "democratic socialism" on the basis that the government hadn't taken control over the means of production, it had only taxed the means of production and run a welfare state, while leaving the productive economy in private hands.
Ludicrous and dishonest to compare violence and autocratic rule, which Maduro actually does direct and engage in, with violence on J6 which Trump didn’t direct, control or condone, and who never defied the USSC as Biden has repeatedly.
Silly, frankly.
Trump directed, controlled, and most especially condoned.
When did Trump order people to riot?
It would make more sense to say Kamala funded insurrectionists committing rioting and arson for bailing out "Summer of love" rioters nut who cares about the billions in damages and the deaths from Democrats.
There was no excuse for those riots.
That depends. Do you consider J6 to have been a "riot"?
David lied, lied, and most especially lied.
Soros must be paying you well.
The usual dose of anti-Semitism on Volokh, I see. Never far from the near continuous stream of racism.
There are, of course, obvious parallels between Maduro's use of violence and fraud to stay in power after losing this election, and Donald Trump's attempts to do the same after he lost in 2020.
Or the Dems' attempt to sabotage Trump, after he won in 2016, with the whole "Trump Colluded with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election" propaganda campaign.
Do you support all of those things, or just some of them?
Socialism; is there anything it can't do?
Let an individual make a choice?
My God, man. Trump is the least Socialist human being on the planet. The "Courts" refused to allow meaningful development of the stolen 2020 election. If you think Biden got votes from 81 million valid voters, you should work for Maduro.
Trump is the least Socialist human being on the planet
I will ignore your 2020 trutherism sad sad comentary on your brain worms. Because this least socialist is a somewhat novel bit of idiocy by superlative.
Trump was such a fan of Kim Jong Un. Remember that? Not really the least socialist.
Oil subsidies, of course.
Getting the government to pay rent at his hotels is some prime socialist fat cat dictator looting of the treasury.
Oh, and the Wall. Big government work project like that? Socialist.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Trump was the absolute least socialist guy on the planet, but if your case for him being a socialist is that he doesn't lunge across the table and assault foreign leaders during talks, it's pretty weak.
"Oil subsidies, of course."
Oil isn't subsidized in this country, it's taxed. Just not as much as you'd like, maybe. But it's a net revenue source.
"Getting the government to pay rent at his hotels is some prime socialist fat cat dictator looting of the treasury."
That's your definition of "socialism"? Hotel owner demands that the government pay rent when using rooms? Are you just a parody account at this point?
Well, lots of so-called studies pretend that not imposing arbitrarily (and imagined) high "carbon" taxes on oil is subsidizing oil. Lots of idiots and liars repeat the claim without realizing quite how counterfactual it is.
You should look up A,Erica oil subsidies sometime.
And from the rates he charged to Trump inviting those currying favor to stay at his properties to how often he chose to stay there…yeah he was looting. This is all well documented.
You don’t care. You never care.
It's what Michael P said; What you're calling "subsidies" is not punishing them enough: "But the really big subsidy is the license to pollute for free."
"https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs"
The United States provides a number of tax subsidies to the fossil fuel industry as a means of encouraging domestic energy production. These include both direct subsidies to corporations, as well as other tax benefits to the fossil fuel industry. Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil
I mean tax breaks count as subsidies. It's stupid to argue otherwise.
But I don't need to try and convince you of basic economics, there's tons of direct subsidies in the form of tax credits as well.
I mean, seriously, did you not read your own link? The subsidies you're complaining about basically fall into two categories:
1. Not taxing fossil fuels as much as you'd like.
2. Not punishing them for having people burn them.
Fossil fuels are actually a net revenue source for the government, you're just mad that the taxes on them aren't high enough to drive people away from them.
What link?
I just posted a link now and you're comment is 8 mins ago...I had not posted any links when you posted this.
Fossil fuels are actually a net revenue source for the government
That doesn't mean they're not subsidized.
OK, you got me, I looked up "A,Erica oil subsidies" and arrived at the exact site you linked to afterwards, rather than following a link. That was rather imprecise of me, mea culpa!
Yes, it DOES mean they're not subsidized. What you're calling a "subsidy", again, is Not taxing them as much as you want!
Tax credits are subsidies.
Fair enough on the link, though - I was on my tablet which is not great for doing much research.
But yeah, all sources (including a Brookings article) Pointed to that facts sheet.
Maybe your telepathy is legit!
So if we eliminated the subsidies and reduced fuel and environmental taxes to the point where net revenue is the same you'd be happy?
I’m not going to get into our oil policies; it’s not a simple thing, and I’m not a lets go to 100% renewables immediately guy.
Suffice to say I wouldn’t be happy.
But oil subsidies are still very much a thing. And socialist enough to put the lie to Trump is the least socialist person alive.
Of course he's not the least socialist guy alive. He's just the least socialist guy running for President this year on a major party ticket. By a wide margin.
Listen, I don't care about your partisan semantic games.
Ghost of Patrick Henry was being silly, and you agree with me on that.
You just still want to talk about how Trump is the freedom candidate. Yet again.
It's like you want to convince yourself.
He's not the Libertarian candidate, obviously. The Libertarian movement failed. If he were remotely a Libertarian he'd be politically doomed.
I'm stuck picking between a moderate authoritarian within normal values of authoritarianism for US politics, and a rather more than normally authoritarian candidate.
And the latter is Harris, not Trump.
Not at all. You'd think the "least socialist" guy wouldn't have picked as a running mate a guy who has more than once publicly said that Eliabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are closest to his economic views. And Trump himself is often indistinguishable from Warren in his economic rhetoric.
BS. Courts? Trump was freakin’ president. If he had actual evidence instead of hot air for talking heads who wouldn’t go under oath, he could have addressed the nation from the oval office and gone through the evidence.
That didn’t happen. They lied stuff for rubes to believe, like courts wouldn’t let them develop it. WTF. You take it to court as a criminal case after you build one.
They did not do this. The president doesn’t need courts to develop anything. He has near infinite resources to build up a case, and then proceed. Or give a speech to the nation.
There was nothing there, and they shined you on deliberately.
And yes, both sides have been doing this long before. It just got a little out of hand this time, if you want to put it that way.
But they never indended anything other than the usual FUD. Political manipulation.
" If he had actual evidence instead of hot air for talking heads who wouldn’t go under oath, he could have addressed the nation from the oval office and gone through the evidence."
Yeah, what if he assigns the job to some guy, "Barr", we'll call him, and then after a while consults him on how it's going, and is told, "I expect to have this wrapped up some time during the Biden administration."?
There's some interesting political science in the 'thin' democracies of Latin America.
But that might make them other than a political tool to bash your enemies with.
Sarcastr0’s comment is (typically) disingenuous.
A: Hey guys, did you hear how, over in Venezuela, the government has imposed socialism, and now the people are starving? Maybe socialism isn’t a good idea…
B: (see Sarcastr0’s comment above)
What’s really crazy though is that Somin is trying to use the Venezuelan example to bash … Republicans — not “the most liberal [i.e., leftist] Senator in 2019” (source)!
There are lots of ways to tell socialism is bad without trying to impute a single cause to an unanalogous country to do so.
Great comment! Surely you’ve persuaded them not to be critical of the things you support!
Nothing like a good finger-wag to shame someone into self censoring!
Imagine dog poop on the sidewalk. That's socialism
Now, imagine dog poop on the sidewalk, but this time it has sprinkles! That's "Democratic socialism". Either way, it's dog poop.
Put your lyrics to John Lennon’s melody interpreted by Jason Aldean. Have Kid Rock arrange and produce it. Should have a big hit to play at all the Trump rallies.
Actually, it is San Francisco. Okay, maybe it is people poop there.
Meh... SF's poop issue is exaggerated.
If one is worried about stepping in doo doo, you need look no farther than Pittsburgh as one of the worst cities for the crappy conditions.
like most major cities, Pittsburg is run by democrats
The object lesson from this populist revolution? Never, ever give up your guns. If they want them, that is your sign that they plan on using violence on you in the future.
I would be nice if the US had the moral authority to be outraged at this power grab, but after Trump's power grab in 2020 our country lost some of that authority. Republicans lost more when they renominated Trump again. Is it democratic socialism to blame or people that have no honor.
Gee, who knew that Trump stayed in power.
If only we, as a people, had the respect of some anonymous foreigner!?
That's so important. If only some low IQ serf in their tiny apartment, high migrant
crime, and low quality of life approved of me!?!!
Many of the "victims" of communism are the reasons communism took effect. You import low ability left wing people, and you get that here.
Look, I'm no fan, but when the vast majority of people say "democratic socialism", they're talking about a large welfare state.
To avoid confusion, I should emphasize that the "socialism" referred to here is government control over all or most of the economy (what Marxists call "the means of production"), not merely having a relatively large welfare state.
Sure, but the line between them isn't as sharp as you might like.
Here in the US, for example, the government basically took over the health care insurance market not so long ago, dictating prices and what the product had to include, and penalizing selling insurance that covered too much, as a welfare program run off budget.
We've socialized health insurance to a large degree. And did it to provide "welfare".
That's not the definition of socialism that applies to Venezuela. Heck, it's not even as applies to Europe.
If you call everything socialist, nothing is.
I don't call everything socialist. But once an industry can't decide its own prices, product, or customers, because the government is dictating all those things, why the hell WOULDN'T you call that "socialist"? How much of the bundle we call "ownership" does the government have to take away, before you'll say it's taken ownership? All of it?
Even the National Socialists let the original owners keep running the factories, as long as they followed orders!
1. You're doing a two-step here. Using one definition of socialism for Venezuela, and then switching to a much broader definition so you can get apply that to just about anything you don't like.
2. Price-based regulations may be bad policy, but calling the all socialist is overbroad. Do minimum wage regs make us socialist? Rent control?
3. Even the National Socialists oh good lord.
Yes, minimum wage regulations and rent control are socialist ideals.
As is socialized medicine to ensure that 99% of us pay more in taxes and health insurance premiums so that you and Kirkland can enjoy your free PrEP drugs.
American confusion over political terminology? "Liberal"? The colour "red"?
Please tell me this isn't your first exposure to these queer Americanisms...
“socialism . . . is government control over all or most of the economy”
Our government has multiple fingers in every piece of the pie that is the US economy. On the whole there is a substantial degree of control over most sectors.
Do you take this absolutist position on definitions like “capitalism” and “free markets” as well? So we don’t have those either? Certainly haven’t had a free market in health care for a long time.
...meanwhile Venezuela is inching closer to a civil war.
I should hope so, given the situation!
I'm not big on political violence, but that seems to call for...some shows of popular force, if not actual violence.
Hey, in a similar vein, what about if a bunch of states refuse to certify come November? Do you see that as distinguishable?
Looking good so far.
So where will Mierda escape to? Cuba, Brazil ...?
So, Trump wins this fall, and a bunch of bluish states refuse to certify his victory? That's not entirely off the table, I suppose.
I like to say that there are no winners in civil wars, just big losers and little losers. If we did have a civil war, I sure hope Europe proves to be up to the challenge of keeping China from taking over. Because we sure won't be doing much abroad for a long while.
You didn't answer the question. Lets hope you never need to.
"A bunch of states" seems unlikely. One or two? Possible.
If it's not enough to deny the winner an absolute majority, nothing particularly out of the ordinary happens at the federal level, though the winner's supporters would be royally pissed where it happened.
If is IS enough to deny anybody an absolute majority, constitutionally it goes to the House, which votes by state, each state having 1 vote. They pick the President from the top 3 candidates in the EC. Then the Senate picks the VP from the top two VP candidates.
It's the new House and Senate doing this, not the old, of course.
It's almost certain that Republicans will control a majority of state delegations in the House, so if Trump was the winner the rogue states refused to certify, he ends up President. If Harris was the winner they refused to certify? I think she probably still ends up President, but it's not as certain.
Then if the Senate is controlled by the Republicans, the elected President probably gets their own VP, if by the Democrats, I expect we'll get a Democratic VP unless Trump won by a landslide.
I wonder how Trump would get along with whoever she finally gets to agree to take the 2nd spot? So far she's not having much luck getting people to agree to take it.
If Harris was the winner they refused to certify? I think she probably still ends up President, but it’s not as certain.
You did a better job than I did, and walked right up to hypothetical scenario I'm analogizing here.
But you didn't answer the question.
I thought I did. I don't see it resulting in a civil war, because we actually have a constitutionally determined process for dealing with such a situation, and I expect it to work.
If you want to further posit that Trump wins, and enough Democratic elections officials refuse to certify the results to deny him an absolute majority in the EC, and THEN somehow the fact that Republicans would dominate the process in the House is circumvented? Yeah, you'd probably get some level of unrest, but how exactly do you see that happening?
Now, in the inverse situation, you get MASSIVE riots. Democrats massively riot at the drop of a hat recently. But it won't be a civil war, because Democrats are not in a position to prosecute a civil war.
States do not certify a president's victory; they only certify the results of that state's election. Why would Trump win "a bunch of bluish states"?
His victory in that state.
Normally, because more people in those states voted for him than for the Democrat. That’s how it generally works.
What I mean by “bluish” is states that have roughly split electorates, but where the certification is under the control of Democrats. I really doubt Trump would carry any reliably Democratic states, now that Biden is off the ticket.
Because it’s possible Trump might win some “blueish” states?
An example might be NJ where Trump attracted a crowd of 100,000 recently and Murphy squeaked by in winning re-election.
What is it with Trump acolytes and their focus on crowds?
Setting aside the completely fictional number — 100,000 people would not have fit there, and the number was pulled solely from Trump's ass — each person showing up to a rally counts as 1 vote, not 20. Trump lost NJ handily in 2020, but he still got 1.9 million votes there. Why would 40,000 people — or even 100,000 people — showing up to a rally mean that he was going to get any more votes this time than last time?
I am pretty sure it will be anything but civil - - - - - - - - - - -