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Judge in N.Y. Trump Fraud Civil Case Refuses to Recuse
From Thursday's decision in People v. Trump, by N.Y. trial judge Arthur Engoron:
This action, familiarity with which the Court assumes, arises out of a years-long investigation that plaintiff, the Office of the Attorney General of the State of New York ("OAG"), conducted into certain business practices that defendants engaged in from 2011 through 2021. OAG alleged that the individual and entity defendants committed repeated and persistent fraud by preparing, certifying, and submitting to lenders and insurers false and misleading financial statements, thereby violating New York Executive Law § 63(12).
In a Decision and Order dated September 26, 2023, this Court granted plaintiff summary judgment only on liability and only on the first cause of action.
On February 16, 2024, following a three-month trial, this Court issued a Decision and Order After Non-Jury Trial finding defendants liable on the remaining six causes of action. The Court ordered certain injunctive relief, including the continuation of the Hon. Barbara Jones (ret.) as an Independent Monitor of the Trump Organization, which obligates the Court to maintain jurisdiction over this action despite the trial's conclusion.
On May 8, 2024, NBC New York reported that Adam Leitman Bailey, Esq., a lawyer with no connection to this case, boasted that several weeks before I issued the Decision and Order After Non-Jury Trial, he "approached the judge presiding over Donald Trump's civil fraud case to offer unsolicited advice about the law at issue in the case."
On July 11, 2024, this Court so-ordered, in part, defendants' subpoena to Bailey, directing him to disclose any documents or communications in his possession that involve, discuss, or in any way refer to this action.
Defendants now move, pursuant to 22 New York Administrative Code § 100.3(E)(1), for me to recuse myself, or, in the alternative, for an evidentiary hearing before another justice on the communications and their potential impact on the Court's decision.
The Unsolicited Ex-Parte Communication
Sometime in or about February of this year, several weeks before I issued the Post-Trial Decision and Order, at the end of the business day, I left my robing room in the courthouse at 60 Centre Street and rode an elevator down to the main floor. There, on the outskirts of the famous rotunda, Bailey accosted and started haranguing me about Executive Law § 63(12). He did not relay any alleged facts.
{Of course, the irony here is that defendants, whose position Bailey was ostensibly promoting, is moving for me to recuse myself, and plaintiff, whose position Bailey was ostensibly controverting, opposes the motion. This suggests that defendants are not motivated by ethical concerns but, rather, seek an opportunity to reverse the trajectory and outcome of this case.}
Prior to that time, I considered Bailey a professional acquaintance and a distant friend. His sudden appearance and vehement speech took me aback, and I simply told him that he was wrong. He trailed after me, still droning on, as I descended the Judge's stairs to the street level. I entered my vehicle without saying another word (except, perhaps, "goodbye") and departed.
For approximately three and a half years prior to this unpleasant occurrence, starting in September 2020, I had researched § 63(12) intensely and had issued many rulings, including preliminary injunction and summary judgment decisions, based on it. I certainly did not need a landlord-tenant lawyer ranting about it. I did not initiate, welcome, encourage, engage in, or learn from, much less enjoy, Bailey's tirade. I did not base any part of any of my rulings on it, as Bailey has outlandishly, mistakenly, and defamatorily claimed. The entire 90-second incident, after three and a half years of studying and being immersed in § 63(12), was, to use the vernacular, a "nothingburger." I would have forgotten all about it by now had Bailey not attempted to burnish his reputation as someone who could influence judges (which would be unethical, and possibly illegal, but of which Bailey nonetheless publicly boasts).
Due to extensive news coverage of the subject trial, passersby often recognize and confront me on the street, at parties, in parks, in restaurants, and on public transportation. Sometimes their unsolicited words are complimentary. Sometimes they are derogatory. Never do they affect my rulings. As with my forced encounter with Bailey, I feel no need to report these fleeting incidents.
Defendants purport to rely on the rule that a judge may consult an expert only under certain conditions. I did not consult Bailey, and I certainly do not consider him an expert on Executive Law § 63(12)….
Defendants' Arguments
In support of their motion, defendants cite to an array of opinion editorials and blogs (from The Wall Street Journal OpEd, National Review, Newsmax, New York Post, YouTube videos, and The Volokh Conspiracy) critiquing this Court's legal rulings, which defendants collectively use as "evidence" that "this Court's final judgment has certainly imperiled public confidence in the integrity of the New York legal system." As this Court has already detailed in a prior order denying defendants request for a mistrial, "editorial opinions that denounce plaintiff's case … are irrelevant and of no evidentiary value."
Further, the cases defendants cite in support of recusal do not advance their cause.
Defendants purport to rely on Matter of George (N.Y. 2013), to support their claim that the conduct alleged here is "antithetical to the role of a judge." There, the judge presided over a matter in which he had close personal, professional, and financial ties to a party, without disclosing the relationship. As with each case defendants cite on recusal, the facts are wholly distinguishable from these herein.
Defendants also purport to rely on Matter of Levine (N.Y. 1989), in which the judge adjourned proceedings in favor of one party, and "by his conduct … conveyed the impression in an ex-parte communication that his rulings would not be based on merit but on his allegiance and loyalty to [a] former political leader." Here, the Court based its rulings on the law and the facts, not politics, and nothing in Bailey's ill-advised statements to the media indicate otherwise.
Defendants also cite to Matter of Ayres (N.Y. 2017), in which the presiding judge repeatedly initiated ex-parte conversations in an attempt to influence a favorable disposition of his daughter's traffic ticket. I did not initiate the encounter, I did not converse, and neither I nor any of my family members have a personal interest in this case.
In People v Lester (N.Y. Just. Ct. 2002), the judge received an ex-parte communication at his home from a party to the proceeding.
In Matter of VonerHeide (N.Y. 1988), the judge routinely sought out and interviewed witnesses outside of court and ruled based on their unsworn communications.
Defendants' reliance on Matter of Fuchsberg (N.Y. Jud. Ct. 1978), is misplaced, as in that case the judge presided over a matter in which he had an undisclosed financial interest, and in which the Judge consulted with law professor colleagues on at least 12 cases pending before him.
In Matter of Murphy (N.Y. 1993), the judge was "careles[s] in handling public moneys" deposited into Court….
In sum, all of defendants' cases are manifestly distinguishable, simply inapposite, or denied recusal.
Finally, defendants emphasize their claim that "this Court, based on public reporting, is also now apparently under investigation by the Commission on Judicial Conduct." However, the Commission has not contacted me, nor I am aware of any such investigation. An unsubstantiated allegation of an investigation cannot require disqualification.
Discussion
"It is settled that 'absent a legal disqualification under Judiciary Law § 14, a Trial Judge is the sole arbiter of recusal.'"
As no grounds for mandatory recusal exist here, it is up to me and my conscience to determine whether this 90-second, unsolicited diatribe about a law with which I was fully familiar and in which I was fully immersed, by a non-party and non-expert who conveyed no facts, in any way affected my adjudication of a dispute over which I had presided for three and a half years, during which time I had already issued several dispositive decisions. I hereby definitively state that it did not.
Directly on point, the Advisory Committee on Judicial Ethics has opined that a judge is not ethically obligated to disclose an attempted ex-parte communication from a non-party who alleges no relevant facts, but merely expresses a view as to how a matter should be decided, and which is not considered by the judge. Advisory Opinion 98-144, available at https://www.nycourts.gov/ipjudicialethicsopinions/98-144_.htm
Additionally, "[n]o judge may recuse based upon wrongful acts allegedly committed by some other person." R&R Capital LLC v Meritt (N.Y. Sup. Ct. 2008) (stating "[b]ecause this Court holds no bias for or against any party to this dispute, but has expressed in our determination of the issues put before us who shall be the prevailing side, there is no basis upon which recusal may be granted"). Accordingly, recusal based on the sole actions of Bailey, which did not influence my decisions, is unwarranted.
Moreover,
[W]hen there is no ground for recusal, recusal should not be ordered, especially when prejudice will result. Indeed, "'[a] judge has an obligation not to recuse himself or herself, even if sued in connection with his or her duties, unless he or she is satisfied that he or she is unable to serve with complete impartiality, in fact or appearance.'"
I have been presiding over this action, and the special proceeding that preceded it, for over three and a half years. The two dockets have a combined 2,624 separate entries. I have reviewed tens of thousands of documents in camera (and out), throughout extensive disclosure, motion practice, and the trial. To recuse myself now would result in immense prejudice to the parties, the public, and the judicial process.
I am supremely confident in my ability to continue to serve, as I always have, impartially.
Alternative Relief Sought
As an alternative to recusal, defendants request an evidentiary hearing, before another justice of the Court, "on the veracity of Mr. Bailey's allegations and the Court's and [the Office of Court Administration's] denial." In support of their request, defendants cite to a string of cases that, by defendants' own description, have "held that an attorney accused of professional misconduct must have an opportunity to confront the witnesses and subject them to cross-examination." However, such a rule would give standing only to Bailey, who is accused of wrongdoing, to confront witnesses against him in an inquiry into his alleged professional misconduct. These cases do nothing to advance the relief defendants seek herein….
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All lies.
Good boy!
Perhaps next time, you could make an effort to write a complete sentence?
Why bother? You wouldn’t understand it.
Were you to ever actually have a rational thought which you wanted to share, I would be happy to make an effort to understand your stupidity.
I am however, flattered that you write comments solely for my amusement, someone whom you didn't even know existed before your eloquent first attempt at communication.
Asshole.
You come in spitting empty declaration and insult, and when someone gives you back what you're dishing out, you call them an asshole.
...so what does that make you?
Muted
Lies!!
Congratulations, Eugene. You have successfully transformed the VC from a place for law professors and lawyers to discuss legal topics with a libertarian flavor into fodder for spurious legal arguments brought by the Trump criminal consortium.
I'm sure you, Josh, David, and Steve-O are proud of the shout-out, which I imagine is the only reason this opinion popped up here.
Personally - speaking of your name coming up in curious ways - I'm disappointed you haven't felt the need to address your name-check in the context of the Northwestern litigation. You've claimed to the press that you had no involvement whatsoever in that lawsuit, which I find personally difficult to credit, given your flirtation with grievance politics here and apparent duplicity when it comes to how you present yourself publicly. I suspect that you helped motivate the lawsuit, on condition that you not be a party to it directly or be publicly associated with it - a demand which, I'm sure, the advocacy group behind it were happy to satisfy.
Giving the Rev. a day off?
Bumbler, I like to think that my comments are less repetitive and rote than Kirkland’s. But I understand that few of you here can discern such “nuance,” least of all when reading things you’ve been trained to reject reflexively, without any kind of meaningful thought.
Well, that’s a high bar.
Trump criminal consortium.
Yes, they’ve been the ones inventing novel crimes, withholding and manufacturing evidence, planting evidence, forging documents, perjuring themselves, presenting obviously false testimony, finding them financially liable for crimes they were ruled innocent of, ad nauseam, all just to knock Trump’s opponent off the ballot… oh wait.
Pretty fucking psychotic of you “Simon”.
The tu quoque you're attempting here is almost impossible to make sense of, given the litany of complaints you're obscuring behind false and conclusory statements.
I keep asking you people - when you are trying to debate people who do not reside within your information bubble, you've got to drop the labels and "givens" you take as granted within your circles and adopt mainstream language. It's not easy to even understand what you're saying, otherwise.
Nothing in any if your posts is factual or worth debating. Why demand of others what you refuse to do?
With Mother's Lament, I ask only that people who respond to me - and who are, apparently, looking for a response in kind - do so in a manner that is comprehensible. We can get into substance from there.
And I can't say that I've ever seen you attempt to offer anything approaching "facts" or "worth debating." Your two contributions here (so far) are just insults. So... you think I care what you think?
That’s because you’re a pompous, self important leftist ass.
Checking the score card:
1. novel crimes - no President has ever incited an insurrection in a bid to prevent the peaceful transfer of power to his elected successor. That's novel.
2. withholding evidence - Trump failed to return the documents that are now evidence in the Florida indictment.
3. manufacturing evidence - fake electors!
4. planting evidence - Why bother when you only want bogus investigations to be announced? Fake evidence was mostly planted in the media and not in court. But certificates of fake electors sent to the National Archives and Congress.
5. perjuring themselves - Georgia case.
6. presenting obviously false testimony - Witness retracts 'prior false testimony' in Trump documents case. Allen Weisselberg committed perjury in Trump fraud trial. False claims in Trump's deposition for the E. Jean Carroll lawsuit. Trump lying is about the most obvious thing, so he usually avoids testifying and favors invoking the 5th amendment.
7. finding them financially liable for crimes they were innocent of - OK, they mostly find themselves financially liable for defamation about crimes that others were innocent of.
8. knocking Trump's opponent off the ballot - Trying to get Ukraine to damage Biden got Trump impeached (the first time). But now they want legal challenges to keep Biden on the ballot, which would mean knocking the actual Democratic nominee off the ballot.
no President has ever incited an insurrection in a bid to prevent the peaceful transfer of power to his elected successor. That’s novel.
What insurrection?
The one on January 6, where people acting at the direction of the sitting president, attacked the Capitol to prevent the people’s choice for the next president from having his election certified.
Hope this helps. Surprised you didn't hear about it before.
You’re such a clown.
TDS folks live in a parallel universe.
It's a Gish Gallop in action. A string of nonsensical accusations, with of course nothing even pretending to be factual support (or even specification of what the accusations actually consist of).
The crimes of which trump was convicted are certainly novel, heard before a beaner judge.
§ 175.10 (falsifying business records) is a very common charge in New York. It was applied in a novel context, sure. But that's like arguing that someone's murder charge is "novel" because nobody has ever been prosecuted for beating someone to death with a pickleball racket before.
A nice bit of alchemy turning misdemeanors into felonies.
Simon destroyed all credibility he will ever have with that sentence.
A criminal consortium that has no committed no criminal acts, save for opposing the democrat agenda
The irony being the Letitia James case being fully spurious and the judge failing at basic legal construction in accepting Florida Tax Evaluations as market prices.
But you've always been a liberal lawfare proponent.
Have I been?
When it comes to "lawfare," I'm ambivalent. But surely, when we're in situation where a presidential candidate attempted to reverse his loss by bringing a flurry of lawsuits across the country, where red states even tried to toss the results of blue states' elections in court, and where Republicans are now trying to stymie the Harris campaign by complaining about her taking over the Biden campaign apparatus (and are promising various other lawsuits besides), liberals can't be expected to disarm unilaterally, can they? This is (apparently) how politics is done, these days. What kind of criticism is it, exactly, to say that I'm a "proponent" for "not rolling over and letting conservative politicians, lawyers, and judges win elections via legal challenges"?
Also, the use of the term "irony" is incorrect here.
It sucks when your victims start hitting back, doesn’t it?
Oh, and the on,y way to commit loan fraud in a case like this would be to bribe all the appraisers (there were likely two or three appraisals performed independently at the order of the lending institution for loans of this type) plus the internal appraisal review department of the lender. As 1) representations made on a preliminary loan application are not a basis for loan fraud, and 2) the lender makes their own assessment of collateral value based on their own valuation standards. Which as I stated above invoke two or three independent appraisals order by the lender and reviewed by their appraisal review department.
So James’ legal claims of loan against Trump are spurious and laughable. Only a crooked partisan judge could allow this to go forward.
Trump was not sued for "loan fraud," whatever you mean by that; he was sued for violating Executive Law § 63(12). And of course none of the rest of your statements are accurate/relevant, even if the traditional elements of fraud applied. ("It's okay to lie on a loan application because the lender should've done its own appraisal" is not actually a thing.)
Everything I said is exactly right. I’ve been in commercial mortgage lending for over 25 years. Initial loan applications are not a basis for fraud. The information on the final application, the one signed at close of pan is the one that would be the basis for any potential accusations of fraud. And don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’ve attended several dozen loan fraud seminars, many run by attorneys, over the years and this subject is regularly discussed. Preliminary loan applications aren’t the actual loan application, as much information changes, including valuation data.
Amd no commercial lender ever relies on borrower estimates of collateral value, ever. And EVERY lender uses their own procedures to establish value. So I am exactly right.
Thank goodness you’re here to set that judge right.
But wait...so is the lawfare plan to just hope you get a judge who isn't as savvy as JesseAz?
Seems a janky plan!
Jesse decamped years ago for the more congenially fetid right wing fever swamp of the regular Reason comment threads. That he now finds these threads sufficiently to his liking to dip his toe back in is dispiriting.
In other words, he won’t go along with the left’s (democrats) efforts to use the courts as a partisan weapon.
In what way exactly were these loans different from every other property loans? In what way were they different from the speculative value of every IPO? Other than the target they are the same but you ignorant commies don't care as long as you get your man.
You don't get to lie about the valuation of your IPO or on applications for other property loans either. That's fraud as well.
You're going against the judge and the jury at this point. Both of whom are better informed than you on this case.
But you're not here for the facts or the law. Trump innocent is where you begin and end your thinking.
No jury on this one.
Letitia James is a retarded ape. Much like Kamala Harris.
That comment explains Prof. William Baude’s decision to publish scholarly observations at this white, male, movement conservative blog operated by disaffected, bigoted Federalist Society members.
And his disinclination to talk about his blog’s daily stream of right-wing bigotry.
#ConservativeCourage
#ConservativeCharacter
What a trenchant observation! Your mother must be so proud!
You object to holding law professors to account for bigotry?
I don't see why they should be "held to account" for your antisemitism, no. They are not responsible for the things you pollute this blog's comments with, and are not obligated to cease posting here because you do that. They probably should delete all your comments and ban you, but of course you would have a tantrum about that. (And no, doing so would not retroactively rehabilitate your false claims that this happened to you before.)
Arty, you’re a homogeneously inferior creature. Not really human, but struggling to maintain some laughable delusion of superiority. When we all know that you’re an indigent failure in life that comes here to inflict your impotent rage on your betters. Which is nearly everyone that isn’t you.
You’re something that even Morbidly Obese Jeffy, or Sarcasmic, would scrape off their shoe. You really don’t even have a right to exist.
Look, it's not their fault that you're so unsuccessful in life.
Democrats tend to fail upwards.
I'm personally glad that Trump's team made this motion. Now that I see the underlying facts; it's clear that it's a nothing-burger AT BEST...and was most likely a breach of that lawyer's professional ethical duties. At Worst (if this guy did this at all in collusion with Trump or Trump's legal team), there should be a criminal investigation, and people should temporarily/permanently lose their right to practice law.
If we lawyers can get judges recused just by approaching them out of court and talking to them (unsolicited!!!) about a case, then cases will be handled very differently going forward.
I hope the relevant state bar(s) is investigating this lawyer...he sounds like he's unworthy to hold a law license.
Now that I see the underlying facts;
You have now seen Judge Engeron’s story, which may be the facts. Or not as the case may be. However his account of the facts does not accord with the lawyer’s :
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/new-york-lawyer-tried-advise-judge-trump-trial-civil-fraud/5395676/
Bailey said he “explained to him” that a fraud statute at issue in the case was not intended to be used to shut down a major company, especially in a case without clear victims. He said such a ruling would hurt New York’s economy. Engoron had rejected a similar argument raised by the Trump team in court.
“He had a lot of questions, you know, about certain cases. We went over it,” Bailey said.
Baker, the court spokesman, did not reply when asked whether the judge had engaged with Bailey or asked questions.
The judge says :
His sudden appearance and vehement speech took me aback, and I simply told him that he was wrong. He trailed after me, still droning on, as I descended the Judge’s stairs to the street level. I entered my vehicle without saying another word (except, perhaps, “goodbye”) and departed.
“He had a lot of questions” and “we went over it” is not the same as “I simply told him he was wrong” . “without saying another word” and “goodbye.’
One of the two has misremembered.
"One of the two has misremembered."
...or lied?
People do sometimes misremember innocently. Even members of the New York bar.
However I do have a wholly hypothetical legal question here.
Suppose there was a recording of the incident, or several witnesses who could come forward and testify that the judge’s account was incorrect and the lawyer’s account was correct.
If the judge had given his account of the facts as a witness then he might potentially be at risk of a charge of perjury. (Though the prosecutor would have to prove that the misremembering was deliberate.) But does the perjury jeopardy apply in a case like this, where the judge is not a witness (at least not formally), he’s the judge giving his own witnesslike account of the facts in the course of his own ruling ?
ie if a judge deliberately makes material false statements of fact in the course of a ruling on a motion for his recusal is he in trouble (perjury) or free and clear (judicial immunity etc) ?
Interesting. Hope someone will find this and posit an answer.
This hypothetical judge would be subject to judicial discipline. If he offered false testimony in the disciplinary proceeding, that would be perjury. The Judicial Commission can seek censure, admonition, or removal from office. The Court of Appeals hears their determination, and would be the ones to refer perjury for potential prosecution.
And just to follow on in answering Les Moore: there is no "judicial immunity" from professional sanction or criminal prosecution. The only thing Engoron as a judge would be immune from is being sued by Trump (or anyone else) for damages.
So does that mean that [a hypothetical judge's] "perjury" about the facts, in his own ruling, would actually be criminally prosecutable as perjury ?
“Perjury” generally refers to lying under oath about a material fact. A judge’s ruling isn’t given under oath, so a false statement in a judge’s ruling cannot be perjury. That doesn’t mean the judge would face no consequences, as Drewski explains above.
A judge writing an opinion is not under oath, so it would not meet the statutory definition of perjury. But there are other crimes that your hypothetical judge's hypothetical actions probably would in fact meet the statutory definition of, and the hypothetical judge would in fact be criminally prosecutable for those hypothetical actions.
(In addition to other consequences such as impeachment.)
Sure must be difficult, being a serious, intelligent, ambitious person climbing the greasy pole with a shitbag failure like Don Trump at the top.
Still doesn't excuse Eugene's slow shedding of the ethics he used to have, and demonstrates the enduring truth of the "everything Trump touches turns to shit."
Reasonable conservatives are very thin on the ground these days.
"Still doesn’t excuse Eugene’s slow shedding of the ethics..."
How is this post, which takes no position on the merits of the judge's response, have anything to do with anyone's ethics?
Refuses?
Word choice is often revealing. In this post with no original analysis or consideration provided or needed (consisting entirely as it does of mildly interesting blockquotes from the filing), not sure if EV thought about the subtle but meaningful difference between his headline's Refuses, and the more accurately descriptive, less argumentative Declines.
Or perhaps the neutral Denies Recusal, as used in the Defendant's Arguments section
A little thing, but they add up.
You are right about word choice and connotation.
Doing that comes at the cost of clicks.
the subtle but meaningful difference between his headline’s Refuses, and the more accurately descriptive, less argumentative Declines.
I agree that the two words have a somewhat different connotation, though in substance they amount to the same thing. The difference is to do with the emotional tone, or as you say the degree of argumentativeness. But I disagree that in this case Declines is more accurately descriptive than Refuses. The tone of the judge's ruling is highly argumentative throughout, capped by this magnificent bit of snark :
{Of course, the irony here is that defendants, whose position Bailey was ostensibly promoting, is moving for me to recuse myself, and plaintiff, whose position Bailey was ostensibly controverting, opposes the motion. This suggests that defendants are not motivated by ethical concerns but, rather, seek an opportunity to reverse the trajectory and outcome of this case.}
which is completely irrelevant to whether the judge should or should not recuse. It's simply a kick at the Trump team. He's letting off steam.
So I think "Refuses" is more accurately descriptive than "Declines". The latter connotes a smooth dispassionate Justice Barretesque detachment. "Refuses" correctly captures Judge Engeron's indignant tone.
Whether EV thought all this through, I don't know. He is a bit of a wordsmith after all. Or maybe "Refuses" just popped naturally into his head when he absorbed the emotional tone of the Judge's ruling.
It's just more evidence for the appeal that Big Schnozz Engoron was hopelessly biased.
Maybe this blog is what it is because the proprietor is afraid of being called Big Schnozz Yehven.
You’re just a dirty retarded Marxist bigot. It will be good when you and your fellow travelers are dealt with.
Judge Engoron was simply doing what a judge does: ruling on a party’s pleading. But yours is a not unreasonable take. Perhaps better would have been the more neutral language I also mentioned.
So, revise to: Judge in N.Y. Trump Fraud Civil Case Denies Recusal Request
Though, the “indignant tone” you mention was much stronger in the defendant’s original filing so, per your logic, should Request be replaced by Demand?
Still, as I said, a little thing but they add up.
I agree that denies or declines would have been a better word choice than refuses, but I also think that it's reading a bit too much into a single word… in a blog post.
#Polemical
#OnTheSpectrum
#Hypocrisy
#Bigotry
#Cowardice
Ok, now talk about someone besides yourself.
Yes, those are your key attributes.
You really pissed the leftist shitposters off with this one.
Did he? Did you read the OP?
Rarely come here but have to say the comment thread is a lot worse than Reason next door. Aside from the headline stating that the judge refuses to recuse as opposed to maybe declines (?) I am not seeing any any editorial judgement at all but the TDS heads are exploding. If this crowd is representative of the legal profession I finally understand the old quote " first we kill all of the lawyers". Really pathetic.
but have to say the comment thread is a lot worse than Reason next door.
This is an exception. Usually debate here is significantly better informed and more narrowly focused than over on the main Reason pages, which is why so few posters from the main page are regularly seen here.
As I write, there are only 35 comment in this thread. How anyone can reach that conclusion from such a small sample size is mystifying.
Incidentally (or not), apart from the usual switch-hitters, we have at least three “regular” Reason commenters now popping up in this thread. Is Reason finally enforcing its “pay-to-play” policy? Maybe VC’s notorious “open borders” approach is unwise after all…
We'll know that's the case when the open threads become consumed with discussions of goings on on the R side of the R/VC divide. But, yeah, that's an obvious concern.
It was the newest article listed under “Latest” yesterday evening. I don’t think it goes farther than that.
No, it’s just a prog circle jerk. Which what you like, right Shrike?
You won’t have to wait long for the vile racial slurs at the Volokh Conspiracy. And not just in the comments. There is never a wait with respect to other forms of bigotry, an everyday signature element of this white, male, right-wing blog. Right-wing racism, conservative antisemitism, Republican xenophobia, superstitious gay-bashing, Federalist Society Islamophobia, white nationalism, on-the-spectrum male grievance, old-timely misogyny, Christian dominionism, fetish-infused transphobia . . .
Anyone playing woke-word bingo?
The Rev. is the champ of playing with himself in every way...
Got any other prog buzzwords you want to throw in Arty?
I finally understand the old quote ” first we kill all of the lawyers”.
Do you, though??
It’s sort of grimly amusing when huckleberries trot out this quote thinking that it provides some sort of pseudo-intellectual veneer to their homicidal fantasies, as if Billy Shakespeare somehow legitimizes advocating mass murder.
If you read the quote in context I don’t think it’s saying what you think it’s saying.
"t I don’t think it’s saying what you think it’s saying."
Do you? As with much of Shakespeare it is not entirely clear one way or the other.
See purple Martin below, who summarizes more eloquently than I could
Another view:
But! As scholar Daniel Kornstein notes in his book Kill all the Lawyers: Shakespeare’s Legal Appeal, this quote could also have been a class-focused criticism of lawyers, a group of professionals committed to securing the interests of the wealthy. Cade is a laborer and longs to overthrow the oppressive upper-classes, and Dick recognizes that lawyers stand in their way.
Kornstein writes,
Cade’s and Dick’s negative attitude toward lawyers must be understood in the context of a class revolt. The rebellion led by Cade in Henry VI, Part 2 is an uprising by the commons, a popular revolt by lower classes—”infinite numbers” of peasants, “laboring men,” and “handicraftsmen” such as clothiers, butchers, weavers, sawyers, tanners-against the power and luxury of the English upper classes. Cade tells his cohorts they were fighting to recover their “ancient freedom” so they would no longer have to “live in slavery to the nobility” (4.7.181-82).
Then as now lawyers were more available to the wealthy and powerful, who could afford to retain them, than to the poor and the weak, and were the very symbols of the inequities and oppression that provoke a revolution. As a result, the folk image of lawyers has often been bad. Common people have frequently seen lawyers in their roles as conservative defenders of property and the status quo, as unethical “hired guns” or “mouthpieces” available to the highest bidder, as a professional elite of technical wizards adept at using the law to cheat honest but poor people. Many upright citizens, wearied by what Hamlet called “the law’s delay” or caught in the intricacies of legal red tape, must have bitterly echoed Dick the Butcher’s sentiment through clenched teeth at one time or another.
In another reading, Kornstein notes that this line also reflects the play’s preoccupation with “the law,” and persons who embody the law, most prominently the honorable Humphrey, the duke of Gloucester, who is of such importance to the dramatic proceedings that he even appears in the play’s original title, The Second Part of Henry the Sixth, with the Death of the Good Duke Humphrey.
Kornstein writes,
As lord protector, Gloucester in effect rules England during Henry’s minority. A “virtuous prince” (2.2.74), Gloucester symbolizes the rule of law, its fair execution and administration, as well as the need-reminiscent of Socrates-to submit to it when it wrongly turns on him. In Gloucester, one finds the humane impulses that should animate the law. Other advisers to the king, ambitious for themselves and jealous of Gloucester’s sway, unjustly accuse him, and while holding him for trial, kill him. All the time, everyone around the king—scrupulous or not—pays lip service to the law, its integrity and symbolism. In the three acts before Jack Cade appears, law—especially law in the person of Gloucester—is a dominant theme.
Gloucester is often seen passing laws, and interpreting them—and he abides by them without exception, even when his own wife is arrested for witchcraft. Although he wants to, he cannot spare her, explaining “I cannot justify whom the law condemns.”
But then he is killed! He is killed via the bastardization of the law by ambitious and greedy pretenders. That’s when Cade’s crowd rises up.
Kornstein notes,
Most important, Cade’s mob emerges only at the moment of Gloucester’s death. They did not criticize the law before then. The people are compelled, through lack of a lawgiver, through the total breakdown of the constitutional rule of order, to take the law into their own hands. They do not protest all law, but only perverted, false law, such as [the kind that] accused and killed the good duke of Gloucester. As symbols of the evil legal system, lawyers become the object of hatred.
So there you have it! “Let’s kill all the lawyers” is a complicated phrase that (somehow always) refers to the importance of maintaining an fair rule of law that protects the people. Whether lawyers symbolize evil or good is almost irrelevant; the most important thing about this quote is the upholding of a fair and just law system, itself.
Sounds like an interesting book. I stand by the balance of my comment
Daniel Kornstein, as a moment's Googling will tell you, is not a scholar but instead a lawyer.
He's a fun writer and all, but it is surprising to see you posting this frank class warfare analysis of Shakespeare, actually.
But I guess if you're going to slam in random links to try and win arguments on the Internet, any post in storm will do.
But by all means, please grace us with your interpretation. Might be interesting for you to try something other than one-liners…
Says Mr. Deep Thoughts.
See above.
So Bumble, you have no view of your own but must instead copy-and-paste Kornstein’s? (btw, even with acknowledgment of the original author, that approximately 650-word extract from a copyrighted work is generally considered to exceed Fair Use principles.)
Yes, as I mentioned, there are alternative readings of the sentiment. Justice Stevens writes the majority opinion, of which Daniel Kornstein concurs in part (as summarized in the last paragraph) and dissents in part (and a strong, well-written dissent it is, which I always appreciate).
What I wrote is my concurrence with that agreed-on paragraph. Do you limit yourself to a full concurrence with the Kornstein opinion, or would you like to add any original thoughts of your own?
Gaear, thanks for the shout-out, but your "I finally understand," if a typical example of the way you learn things, doesn't give anyone much confidence that you're going to provide any value here.
Because, the first thing you do is demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of that "old quote," which you start by getting wrong. Accurately, it's:
It’s spoken by the character Dick the Butcher in Act IV, Scene II of Henry VI, Part II. Watch the play and you'll notice Dick is a villain, part of an aggressively anti-intellectual group in rebellion against King Henry. They burn any documents or books they find, and kill anyone displaying literacy (both issues of some concern to lawyers).
There are a couple alternative readings of the sentiment, but the most broadly accepted seems the one captured by Justice John Paul Stevens in a 1985 SCOTUS decision:
Irrespective of the characteristics or morals of lawyers in a specific legal system, consensus is that the Shakespeare's intent was to note the importance of a consistent, agreed upon, fair rule of law that protects all the people.
Feel free to criticize the quality of the thread. Your observation is, if obvious, not inaccurate as applied to the TDS-afflicted of both sides. Some Trumpists and anti-Trumpers present with the same symptoms, though numerically, the most severe MAGA-originated TDS infections are overrepresented here—you should fit right in!
But you're going to have to up your game. Frankly, your boringly ordinary first effort (I might have said "Really pathetic" but it's not interesting enough to rise to that level)...doesn't bode well for the future.
Moreover, nearly every lawyer learns, if only as a matter of self-defence, during (if not before) law school what Shakespeare's often misunderstood lawyer quote most likely really meant.
Laypeople, not so much.
Volokh doesn’t link to the full decision, presumably because he got it from behind a paywall. The ruling (along with the motion to recuse and the state’s reply) can be found at the following link:
https://www.justsecurity.org/89120/clearinghouse-new-york-attorney-general-corporate-fraud-case/
Expand the “Selected Court Proceedings” section and search for “Recusal”.