The Volokh Conspiracy
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"Getting a Home Depot Employee Fired for Calling for Trump's Assassination Is Still Cancel Culture"
Billy Binion had a piece on Reason about this on Wednesday, which I think is generally quite right. An excerpt, though there's more at the link:
Whatever your feelings on the former president, cheering on his assassination attempt is, in fact, wrong. It is also wrong to weaponize your millions of followers to turn a random woman into a national pariah, siccing a mob on her and rendering her unable to support herself—and possibly her family—because she made a tasteless comment on social media. These two things are true at the same time.
Cancel culture comes in different forms. But this is arguably its purest. We're not talking about someone who wielded considerable influence over society, whether in Hollywood or on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C. We aren't even talking about a public school teacher who said this to a classroom full of students. We are talking about a woman who worked at a big box retail store, whose ability to pay for housing and food is potentially now up in the air for saying something gross on the internet.
It's ironic that the people leading this mob are some of the same individuals who have repeatedly—and rightly—decried mob justice over the last several years.
Binion's piece is fundamentally about the right and wrong of the situation; but if you're interested in whether it's legal for private employers to fire employees for such speech, see this article, which canvasses the state and local laws on the subject. Here also is a map that summarizes this (from this article); the dark gray states are the ones where this sort of firing is most likely to be illegal:
For a case bearing on whether government employers may fire employees for saying, after an assassination attempt on the President, "If they go for him again, I hope they get him," see Rankin v. McPherson (1987); the Court there held that firing an employee for such speech violated the First Amendment.
To be sure, Rankin is not completely on point: On one hand, it dealt with on-the-job speech, and off-the-job speech would presumably be even more protected. On the other, the speech was just to a friend, and the Court noted that "Nor was there any danger that McPherson had discredited the office by making her statement in public," though perhaps this was just because McPherson was an employee at a law enforcement office—it's not clear that a concern about discrediting the office would apply to, say, a firefighter. But whatever the legal analysis might be, Binion's ethical analysis strikes me as correct.
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Game Theory tells us that tit-for-tat is the optimal cooperation strategy for both sides.
These people led the charge canceling anyone wearing a red hat, and empowering/enabling government bureaucrats to harass and oppress every Trump supporter they can get their hands on.
They need to suffer before they change their evil, vile, ways.
Prisoner's dilemma!
But, that analogy assumes I am better off when my ideological opponents are canceled compared to when no one is canceled. I suppose some (perhaps many or most) people feel that way, and if so game theory suggests both sides canceling is the rational strategy.
But, I don't feel that way and hope you don't either. It's high time we don't take having our ideological opponents fired as a plus.
Not quite.
1) "Both sides" are better off when no one cancels.
2a) But one side is much better off it it cancels, and the other side doesn't.
2b) That option is much worse off for the side that gets cancelled.
3) When both sides cancel, it's worse than option 1, but better than option 2b
The "tit for tat" strategy basically works to copy the opponent's last move. So, if the opponent cancels, you cancel. If the opponent doesn't cancel, you don't cancel.
Your conditions describe prisoner’s dilemma to a tee. Whether this is iterative prisoner’s dilemma (and thus tit-for-tat is available) is not clear.
Tit for tat is clearly available. And it's clearly iterative.
In terms of game theory, you'd need to posit a third party typically to take it outside the typical bounds.
Game Theory tells us that tit-for-tat is the optimal cooperation strategy for both sides.
No. People who blindly invoke this idea, which arose not from theory but from one particular set of experiments in a highly structured situation which they don't understand, are full of shit.
But we hardly need this evidence in the case of Jesus whatever, a jackass who significantly degrades the quality of any thread he participates in.
Correct, the OPTIMAL cooperation strategy is for neither side to attack. However, once that is off the board, by far the most optimal strategy is tit for tat.
No; we have not actually solved the prisoners' dilemma via iterative computer simulation.
For one thing, humans are not stripped down computer programs.
Whatever. If I risk getting fired for my social media posts, then my political opponents should also risk getting fired for their social media posts.
Why do you hate fairness?
Prisoner's dilemma is not about fairness.
Remember Emmanuel Cafferty?
I remember he made certain claims about why he was fired, which his employer disputed. How is the case going? Do we actually know anything?
So?
So, your comment about fairness is not salient.
What we have here is called a non-sequitur.
Huh? You responded to a post about prisoner's dilemma with a comment about fairness.
Yes, I know I did. How does that make my comment "non salient"?
It's not salient to the prisoner dilemma's analysis.
Fair enough, but I didn't say it was.
Q: "Why do you hate fairness?"
A: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/goodbye-liberalism/
The right's persecutions complex lets them manufacture whatever rage-bait they want and use it to justify any awful actions they do.
This is not fairness; it's being a fucking asshole.
More name calling.
"use it to justify any awful actions they do."
What awful action? Here, people were merely disseminating accurate information about what someone said publicly, under her own name, on social media.
This got her fired because the left created an environment were things that are considered a little bit beyond the pale are called out, and result in social consequences, instead of tolerated.
people were merely disseminating accurate information about what someone said publicly, under her own name, on social media.
You do a lot of work to strip out any context. Like the number of followers one of these 'people' has, what these follwoers have a longstanding pattern of doing, what the goal of disseminating the information was.
It says a lot how much you're willing to edit to justify this awful stuff.
I stand behind my asshole comment.
"It says a lot how much you’re willing to edit to justify this awful stuff."
No, you miss the point, as usual. The awful action was firing her for her comments, which you haven't condemned, and creating an environment were people are expected to get fired for dumb comments, which you haven't condemned.
In your zest to condemn those who you hate, you have overlooked the underlying causes of cancel culture.
"I stand behind my asshole comment."
Of course you do.
The awful action was firing her for her comments
I don't think that's true. That's a subsequent effect, it is not the action at issue.
"I don’t think that’s true. That’s a subsequent effect, it is not the action at issue."
I know you don't think that. Because, as I said, your hatred of the right is causing you to see only the actions of those that you hate as being "at issue."
There are a few actions at issue here:
1. The left created a norm where people are expected to be fired/ostracized for unpopular views/actions. (Cancel culture)
2. LoTT, et al, repeat this woman's statement with the intent of getting her fired/ostracized.
3. Home Depot fired her for her statement.
All three of these are "at issue," there's nothing wrong with repeating someone's statements if you don't have the "cancel culture" norm.
Notice how Sarcastr0 never polices the baddies in his tribe.
He's the kind that will be kicking you into the ditch after they've shot you in back of the head.
Who even cares about ladies getting fired from Home Depot? People need to be held accountable for their shitty opinions. Free speech means you're allowed to have and utter despicable ideas, but other people are not required to respect them. Idiot assholes should be treated like idiot assholes. I'm looking at you, Tiny Pianist.
And your hatred of the left leads you to believe that only the left is responsible for creating cancel culture.
And your hatred of the left leads you to believe that only the left is responsible for creating cancel culture.
The leftist elements of social media certainly pioneered the tactic, whether you're honest/bright enough to recognize that or not.
Funny how it's always conservatives that have to accept being attacked by your leftist buddies but no level of civility is ever called for from those pushing the marxist revolution. Get your comrades to stand down first since they're the ones pushing this weapon.
Horseshit.
On innumerable left wing blogs right now there are innumerable left wing commenters saying, “funny how it’s always liberals that have to accept being attacked by your right wing buddies but no level of civility is ever called for from those pushing the MAGA revolution.”
And they have exactly as much basis for their horseshit assertions as you do for yours: none.
The basis for that claim is the fact that multiple leftist commenters right above made that implicit argument. They reject the idea that the right should use the same tactics that the left already used. They don't admit the left should stop using them.
.
compare (this is something I said last year on a related comment-thread):
re: “hypocrisy” – “cancel culture”
My thinking on this has evolved. You are free to speak your mind; I’m free to criticize. I should also be free not to associate with you if I’m sufficiently bothered by what you said.
BTW: The real hypocrisy — worse than hypocrisy actually — is the claim by “liberals” (ha!) / “progressives” that only they should be free to decide who to associate with.
Your persecution complex excuses you choosing to be a bad person?
Good to know.
So what’s your excuse? Or are you a bad person just for the hell of it?
What an incredible burn you have made on me.
Here we have you endorsing making someone's life miserable over politics, and I've not done that.
Right. Home Depot did that.
But you're still a bad person.
You really are cutting off the actual issue so you can try and argue where you want to.
Good luck with that. I'm not going with you, no matter how much you declare 'the real problem.'
“You really are cutting off the actual issue so you can try and argue where you want to.”
Sigh. Every accusation is an admission. The topic is cancel culture, and the actual issue is the actual cancellation.
But you don’t see it, because that’s not where you want to argue.
I mean, the first words of the post are literally “Getting a Home Depot worker fired…”
I didn't endorse it at all, you liar. Again, what is your excuse for being such an awful person?
It sure looks like you're endorsing it in your comments here.
But OK, then, lets get you on the record: do you think what LoTT did was a bad thing?
Asking a company for comment on an employee’s inflammatory and intemperate public comments is not bad. I would also say it is only good if the employee is a spokesperson or major decision maker for the company.
Now will you answer the question of why you are such a terrible person? Or should we conclude that it's just inherent to your personality, with no further excuse?
We live in a Democracy. Let's have a vote on who is the more terrible person, you or Sarcastro. Initial polling indicates you may be in some trouble.
You dodged the question, Michael.
As expected.
As to your question, I'm not a horrible person. I work to be a good person, actually.
Meanwhile, you can't condemn LoTT. Who is a bad person. What does that make you?
I didn't dodge the question at all. I answered specifically about what LoTT did in this example, because you're the kind of bad-faith asshole who asks a vague question about "what X did" and then pivots to address some arbitrary other interpretation of "what X did".
If you don't want people to respond appropriately to neutralize your shtick, then work harder to be a non-terrible person.
If you can't admit what LoTT actually did (hint: it has to do with her national profile and many followers), then you are still dodging.
Nothing was unclear- my specific issue with LoTT is all over this thread, often in quote-marks.
It's also in the OP.
If you thought something was unclear, the thing to do is to ask a question to clarify. You didn't bother. Because clarity is not your goal.
Stop tapdancing. Is this true or false:
"It is also wrong to weaponize your millions of followers to turn a random woman into a national pariah, siccing a mob on her and rendering her unable to support herself—and possibly her family—because she made a tasteless comment on social media."
LoTT highlighted what some random person said, and asked her employer for comment. It’s dishonest to focus on LoTT but ignore the NYT, Joe Biden, and hundreds of other people who have done similar things with much more explicit criticism of the behavior they highlight.
As a civilization, we absolutely have to address that random people say harmful things — and that the Internet as a medium, and social media as a particular case, makes it easy for people to do that without thinking through the impacts of what they are saying. People are very used to mouthing off in private and for small audiences, and the dynamics of those comments simply do not translate to context-free, generally-available platforms like most of the Internet has. I think the only way to do that is to do things like LoTT did, and then to have the others involve respond productively, along the lines I suggested elsewhere in this thread (rather than by firing or other destructive responses). This reminds people to be less extreme in what they post — at least publicly — and more thoughtful before they click “Submit”, without making lives miserable. There are also going to be threats in response to public comments, and we need to address those through the usual mechanisms to enforce laws and platform policies on acceptable use.
But as it is, you are just another critic who wants to shut up a successful woman for pointing out the stupid things your political allies are saying.
It’s dishonest to focus on LoTT but ignore the NYT, Joe Biden, and hundreds of other people who have done similar things with much more explicit criticism of the behavior they highlight.
This is whattaboutism and another dodge.
have the others involve respond productively
Well, I guess you couldn't dodge forever. "Have others involved respond productively" is not the mob justice that's being called down.
You want to support bad things, but don't want to be called bad. Too bad.
You are bad. You should not support Internet mob justice, and consider where you lost your way.
I don't support mob behavior, and I made that clear in my comment. You are just too busy hating on everyone to the right of Pol Pot to recognize that you are the baddie here.
Bull. Shit. LoTT calls down the mob. You call it "Have others involved respond productively."
When the rubber meets the road, you're into the mob. When it's on your side.
That sucks and your bare denials don't really play in the face of your support for the events as described in the OP.
Initial polling indicates you may be in some trouble.
The voices in your head don't get a vote.
BTW...I thought your side detested pathological liars?
No, “have others involved respond productively” meant what I said about Home Depot declining to comment publicly and having some minor, private discussion with the employee about responsible social media use. I very specifically said that threats should be punished — and assumed that it was clear that any direct (criminal) action even more deserves to be punished. But apparently you weren’t smart enough to infer that.
You’re very salty about this supposed mob but you haven’t decried the actual left-wing mobs or the assassin spurred into action by Democrats' “existential threat” rhetoric that is meant to stir up an emotional mob reaction much more explicitly that LoTT’s simple re-publishing of comments (sometimes with requests for employer comments).
Let us know when you denounce much more explicit behavior of the sort that you are supposedly bothered by.
And more to the point, this isn't "cancel culture." Cancel culture is the left's new communist like frenzy to silence any opposing views. It is not the reasonable enforcement of societal norms. Put another way, the subject article is just some leftist attempt to force acceptance of the left's moral relativism. No, we can reject unbalanced or offensive rhetoric or behavior without practicing "cancel culture."
You sure do not seem to be silenced.
Reason.com is one of the few remaining forums without selective censorship. I know, this bothers you to no end.
One of the few remaining forums?
It's a big Internet, this seems like nonsense.
Does VDARE not have any places you can comment? You like to quote them.
Or maybe try gab, they do seem like they’re your speed.
Shorter Riva: getting fired for yelling racial slurs is terrible; getting fired for saying mean things about the former president is awesome.
I appreciate that advocating for the assassination of political opponents is the norm in the communist hells you admire but you should probably keep such lunacy to yourself here. Just some friendly advice.
Notice that Riva doesn't even deny that this is his position.
In the form I originally saw it, the essence of the prisoner's dilemma is one prisoner does not know what the other is going to do. The players are not presented with a 2x2 outcome matrix and told that the other player has the same matrix. They are told, for example, that confessing means a predictable two year sentence. Clamming up is zero or ten years depending on what police already know or get out of the other prisoner.
The players are not presented with a 2×2 outcome matrix and told that the other player has the same matrix.
Yes, in fact, they are.
Well, I suppose one side copying the other side's decision not to attack can be viewed as a species of tit for tat.
That's exactly tit for tat. That's how it works.
Side B mirrors the last action of Side A.
Tit-for-tat is the optimal strategy when you are iteratvely playing with the same person. That assumption is not met in this situation. The specific people "canceling anyone wearing a red hat" did not include this particular Home Depot employee (and even if she did, she didn't personally cancel the specific people who got her fired).
It's possible that the tit-for-tat strategy can be generalized to organizations and their members in aggregate but that has not yet been empirically demonstrated.
Yes, there is no tit-for-tat if there aren't repeated plays. But for a single play, the Nash equilibrium is to cancel (again assuming you value getting your idelogicial opponent fired).
Tit for tat and game theory has been extensively studies in the context of international relations (ie "organizations"). It's generalizable in that context. An absolute proof remains difficult in that context, due to the absence of controls.
Where it breaks down is a "game" where:
1) One side is much more powerful than the other.
2) A "game" where there is a third party which has significant power and pays attention to the events and is willing to interfere in the game.
Let's put this in the context of a family feud, the proverbial Hatfields and McCoys (H & M) and a number of cows.
Let's say H & M share a pasture. One day, H takes one of M's cows. M can respond and take back one of H's cows (and is the proper response, according to game theory). Where this breaks down is the following.
1) H has a much bigger family than M. In such a case, if M strikes back, H can launch an "overwhelming" rebuttal that M won't be able to survive. In such a case, it's in M's best interests to not repond.
2) There's an external law enforcement presence. In such a situation, M's best move is NOT to strike back...but to simply inform the authorities.
I respectfully disagree with your opening paragraph. Game theory as applied to international relations is really game theory as applied to the leaders of those nations - again, specific individuals playing iterative "games". I am not aware of any studies showing that 'tit-for-tat' is a viable strategy across a regime change.
National entities remain a far stretch from incohate identity groups like "liberals" or "conservatives" (or for older examples, "blacks" vs" "whites").
Mind you, I'm not saying that it doesn't work, just that it hasn't been reliably studied yet.
Excellent discussion of the breakdown scenarios for tit-for-tat, by the way.
"Game theory as applied to international relations is really game theory as applied to the leaders of those nations "
True, but consider this theory remains even when the leaders transfer power to other leaders. IE, Eisenhower to Kennedy or the analog in the Soviet Union. Merely because Kennedy takes over, the previous examples are not eliminated. One can make the argument that this is an opportunity for a "reset." But, often as not, the other side will typically just use this as a chance to "take advantage" and betray.
The question of "organized groups" such as liberals or whites is an interesting one, and I'd argue has much to do with the overall organization of the group and how susceptible the group is to group action.
"Whites" as a group in the United States doesn't have any real type of group action or control. There's no "White newspaper" or "White leaders" or "White think tanks" to attempt to coordinate policy and thought.
"Liberals" on the other hand do have many of these coordinated actions and capabilities.
Who are the clueless putzes here who think that they can defeat the world's grand Master of Go or Champion of chess by the strategy of mirror moves?
Mirror moves was studied for Go in China and Japan centuries ago.
VC commenter Putz is not going to defeat a top level computer playing either Go or Chess
The mathematical assumptions of Nash's analysis seldom are satisfied in many 2-player games, even less so in life.
'Tit for tat' and 'mirror moves' are not even close to the same strategies.
Nor is Go a proper analogy because that is a pure-competition game with no option or incentive for cooperation.
Maybe think about being not so clueless yourself before accusing others of being "clueless putzes".
"pure-competition game"
Why do assume that no "real live" competitions are like that?
In fact the tit-for-tat strategy is not proved optimal except in games of total competition.
So get off your high horse.
Now you're just doubling-down on being wrong. Tit-for-tat is only a relevant strategy for cooperation games such as interative prisoners dilemma - that is, games where the rules provide a reward for cooperating.
The mathematical assumptions of Nash’s analysis seldom are satisfied in many 2-player games, even less so in life.
No. Nash proved that every competitive situation has an equilibrium.
Tit-for-tat is not a "proven strategy" for anything. It was the empirically best strategy for a specific version of the iterative prisoner's dilemma out of the set of algorithms that were submitted to a contest. It has little-to-nothing to do with game theory generally.
Mirror moves in chess would eventually mean you get checkmated one tempo before you checkmate your opponent.
Exactly
Which is yet another reason why your analogy is braindead.
Thank you for your braindead comment.
Maybe first Eugene or Binion should post a link to the supposed hypocritical mainstream conservative push to enshrine the right for people to call for the assassination of Biden or Obama with guaranteed zero negative consequences they seem to be referring to since I sure don't remember it.
For thousands of years, gay people: Please don’t jail us, or kill us (or fire us).
Sorry, cancel cancel cancel!
The last 15 years, oh no! The shoe is on the other foot, and it’s just firing!
Well, I think there ARE substantial practical and social differences between the majority canceling people with outlier views/behaviors, and the minority canceling people with mainstream views/behaviors.
Seen from a distance, they ARE the same phenomenon, and in some forms morally problematic from a libertarian position, but the latter is vastly more destabilizing of society.
It's like the difference between democracy and oligarchy; Yeah, they're both groups oppressing other groups, but at least when it's the majority oppressing the minority you get fewer oppressed people.
So I guess, since the Democrats outnumber the Republicans in this country, then by your logic, the right deserves to be cancelled.
You heard it here first!
I said "majority" not "plurality". If Democrats are even that...
I'd prefer not to have any cancelation, unless the views are really extreme outliers, like NAMBLA. But, yeah, in general it's less destabilizing if the majority is canceling the minority, than the other way around, because,
1. Fewer people get canceled.
and
2. The majority won't sit still for being canceled.
https://reason.com/2022/08/24/for-many-americans-cancel-culture-is-self-inflicted/?comments=true#comment-9667364
Krayt says (or at least implies) that the right to "cancel" is reserved to certain "oppressed" people (like him, presumably).
This is wokeism. I am special (because of my skin-color, sexual orientation, etc.). I get special privileges. You, on the other hand (because of your skin-color, sexual orientation, etc.) are subject to (fill in the blank -- confiscatory taxation (for my "reparations"), "cancellation," etc., etc.; basically, anything I come up with).
This is sick beyond words. And, as the expression goes, it's been done (see USSR ("social class"), Nazi Germany ("belonging to a non-Aryan race"), etc.).
That's not at all what Krayt is implying. He's implying that you're a hypocrite, since you have no problem cancelling all kinds of people in far worse ways than this lady got cancelled.
A few points.
1. The right talks and acts as if the left invented cancel culture whereas nothing could be further from the truth. For most of our history it was the left that was being cancelled. During World War I, people who publicly opposed the war were jailed. There were vigilance committees that engaged in acts of terror against people who said or did things that were perceived to violate community standards. During the Civil Rights era there were white citizens committees that organized boycotts of businesses that supported civil rights. During the Red Scare public school teachers had to take loyalty oaths. For that matter, there was a well publicized news story in 2004 about a woman who got fired for having a John Kerry bumper sticker on her car. So the whole idea that the left started it is simply ludicrous.
2. Is there any reason to think that if the left stopped cancelling people, that the right would follow suit? I don't think so; I think the right's real complaint is that they want to go back to the days when they had the monopoly on cancelling people. So the whole prisoner dilemma argument is inapplicable.
So cancel culture is the name of the game. Stop fucking crying when you or yours get cancelled then and accept that’s how it is and forever will be. Embrace it. Relish it. Enjoy it, even.
Take a more stoic approach, and accept it. And be on heightened alert when the opposite tribe gains or regains control of the state. Because that's when it can get really dangerous. I believe that's why there's all this caterwauling about my Sacred Democracies from the Left, they know their institutional control is starting to wobble.
There are a great many things that “are the way they are” that society would be better off without and it’s not hypocrisy to say so, that cancel culture is wrong when my side does it and it’s wrong when your side does it. A free society benefits when all views may be openly voiced because no side is always right about everything.
And is that really the society you want to live in, in which any time your side is out of power you risk liberty and livelihood every time you express an opinion?
Look how you change your tune so quickly.
You want the other side to rollover while you steamroll over normalcy, decency, and hope for the future.
Just like Sarcastr0 in here all self righteous about how poorly the other side is responding to your aggressions.
When did I say any of that?
Opposing cancel culture does not mean thinking the other side should win on policy grounds. I don’t think opponents of gay rights, for example, should lose their jobs, but I do think they should lose in terms of public policy.
I'm fine with them losing their jobs.
Are you also fine with your side losing their jobs when the other side comes to power?
Yes.
"During World War I, people who publicly opposed the war were jailed. "
Yes, but people on both ends of the political spectrum opposed the war (in the US), while people on both ends supported the war as well. For every Eugene Debs, there was a Ben Salmon.
It’s far from clear why you think Ben Salmon was anything other than a leftist. Have you read anything he wrote? The only real difference between him and Emma Goldman is that he believed in God and she didn’t; other than that their social and economic views were nearly identical.
We know how you view religion. According to you, He'd be a conservative.
Whatever I may think of religion, it does not determine if someone is left wing or right wing as there are religious people on both sides of the divide. Other than that he was religious, why would you peg him as a conservative? Is the current pope conservative? Conservative Catholics don’t seem to think so.
"Is the current Pope conservative"
According to the views of the American Public. Absolutely.
" In his letter Tuesday, Francis made it abundantly clear the church still considers abortion a grave moral sin,"
Contraception: Francis has kept in line with the church's view that artificial contraception is a sin.
Hard to make that sound "liberal" according to the American public views, a hard no on Abortion and even artificial contraception.
But please, tell us how now he's a liberal.
He allows the blessing of same sex unions, for starters. And he supports a social safety net.
But cutting to the chase, is it your claim that being religious makes one conservative? And other than being religious you still haven’t identified anything about Ben Salmon that would peg him as a conservative.
Still waiting for Armchair to offer evidence that Ben Salmon was a conservative.
The Professor conveniently the woman in Georgia who was fired because she supported her son, a police officer who was ACCUSED of unjustly killing a Black suspect. I believe that happened in 2020. The Left created the habit of putting pressure on Companies and Corporations to do the Left's bidding. Now that it is being used against them, they are crying foul.
Agreed. I saw it happen to a friend of mine for a humorous comment that some worthless undoubtedly drug addled game programmer fro the mile HIGH state of Colorado objected to. My buddy was in Texas.
Deleted post
The left made the new rules. We begged them not to do it but they insisted. Now they are upset those new rules are being used against them. We warned them that just a thing would eventually happen. But they insisted.
I think the excuse the left used was that people are free to say what they wish, but a private company is free to fire the employee if their words reflect badly on the employer. Just imagine the outrage if the employee had made the “okay” sign with her hand.
Imagine if it was government officials visiting their home due to their comments. They may have not lived through that experience. But, conservatives do not have THOSE connections.
Yep, it’s the left’s rules so they can’t complain now. Just wait until a reporter tracks down the fired employees relatives at home and asks them if they agree with her comments. She should really enjoy that experience.
The left made the new rules. We begged them not to do it but they insisted.
'why do you make me hit you'
You have agency; no one is forcing you to rationalize away your principles towards trying to own the libs.
Someone sent a random Home Depot cashier's tweet to Home Depot, and Home Depot's response wasn't to say "So what, we would never fire someone for her personal opinions."
People like yourself are largely responsible for that, so own it.
Just a tweet, eh?
blasting them to her 3.2 million followers on X, and tagging their employers in hopes they are rendered jobless.
If you find yourself lying to minimize what's going on, maybe you're defending the indefensible and should stop that.
"If you find yourself lying to minimize what’s going on..."
Lol. Please point out the lie. If you find yourself falsely insulating that others are lying, maybe your position is indefensible and should stop.
The problem, you fucking idiot, isn't that her comments were made public. After all, she made the comments publicly herself. The problem is that she was fired for her comments.
"blasting them to her 3.2 million followers on X, and tagging their employers in hopes they are rendered jobless."
vs
"Someone sent a random Home Depot cashier’s tweet to Home Depot."
Knowingly cutting out materially vital information is a lie.
Sarcastr0 accusing someone of lying is like Bernie Madoff accusing someone of violating business ethics.
Someone sent a random Home Depot cashier’s tweet to Home Depot... People like yourself are largely responsible for that.
Ha lol, how quickly you forget. Not too long ago, the story would be "someone tipped Home Depot off that she was a lesbian" or an atheist or had an abortion or was divorced or had a Black ancestor or voted for Dukakis. The right has been cancelling people for millennia. It's kind of their raison d'etre... if you're not a "real American" (or Arian or whatever) then you get cancelled for the good of the purity of society. Just look at Trump's immigration rhetoric.
Then suddenly, in the last handful of years, the right found itself in the crosshairs. And they're not even getting thrown in jail or anything, they're just having their FB posts deboosted. What a tragedy! Boo fucking hoo!
It’s funny how only the right is supposed to exercise agency in your world. Just not ha-ha funny.
It's not my world; it's everyone's world.
You see me endorsing making someone miserable because they're on the wrong side of politics, you're allowed to call me out as well.
But I have not endorsed being an asshole as justified by politics so good luck with that.
"You see me endorsing making someone miserable because they’re on the wrong side of politics, you’re allowed to call me out as well."
You endorsed the WaPo's doxing of the person that made this tweet, about a year ago.
Doxxing is bad; WaPo's choice seemed unethical and needless from a reporting perspective to me.
But I don’t see the misery.
LoTT in this case asked for a company to comment. Home Depot was free to say something like “no comment” or “we do not comment on employees’ private speech” or “we disagree with the opinion expressed but do not comment on personnel actions”. Any of those, ideally with having a private discussion about why the original comment should not have been posted in the first place, would have been the right answer. Firing was not the right answer, and it was also something that LoTT did not even suggest (based on Minion’s article).
But in YOUR world, Home Depot and the (former) employee don’t need to exercise agency or accept responsibility for their actions. You focus only on LoTT or other right-of-center people because you’re so partisan. You want us to make LoTT miserable because she's on the other political side from you. And you complain when we call you out for that.
At this point, your inability to understand the issue with LoTT's actions looks less like ignorance and more like trying to take the moral high ground while defending someone who lives entirely in hurting random people and schools.
There are other ways to get Home Depot to comment than to make a public tweet about it when your followers are a mob of assholes eager to target anyone you highlight.
LoTT didn't do that.
I don't believe you're incapable of seeing the issue, I think you're working hard to stay blind.
For someone who claims to be a liberal rather than a hardcore leftist, you sure lean hard into “The issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution.”
What specifically did LoTT write that you think is so problematic? You’ve posted a lot of words here and demanded that we condemn her without providing any detail.
What the fuck are you talking about? I’m talking about the issue in the OP, not the revolution.
What specifically did LoTT write that you think is so problematic?
Wrong question. "weaponize your millions of followers to turn a random woman into a national pariah."
It's at this point quite clear where you are on this, and you're weaseling has gotten pathetic.
WADR, you are full of shit on this one. LoTT did not "ask for a company to comment." LoTT did not care about a "comment"; LoTT is not writing a newspaper article about the subject. LoTT put the company on blast so that the company would be forced to deal with it.
Of course it was not. That was what LoTT hoped for, so she could then say, "Look what Home Depot tolerates."
She didn't suggest it in much the same way that the shady guy on the street who generously offers to watch your parked car for you for a modest fee while you go inside isn't suggesting that something will happen to it if you don't pay up. Which is to say she suggested it, she knew she was suggesting it, Home Depot knew she was suggesting it, and you know she was suggesting it.
Either way, she gets a scalp. Either she gets to say that she got a guy fired or she gets to turn Home Depot into the next pariah corporation.
Fuck off you dishonest POS. Leftists do this all the time to force disassociation, it's the very basis of the attacks on Twitter advertising that Media Matters is being sued for and they're not alone. That you evil twats do this routinely but find it horrific to be applied to you is hilarious.
Left wing mobs? Or just no one wanted to advertise near tweets from Nazis?
Home Depot didn't want a Nazi working for them, which has you all hot and bothered.
Weird how flexible your principles are.
Well not weird. We all see what you write day in and day out.
Yep, the left is the problem. ‘member the good old days when gays could be jailed? That had SC approval as recently as the 1980s, only reversed in the 1990s.
‘member when Ellen came out on her sitcom, and got tacitly fired anyway? When was that? 1985? 1995? Oh, wait. 2001.
Can you blame “the left” for pushing as hard and as far as they can in this historical wink of an eye opportunity?
I lament humanity has not learned its lesson. “The right” does not get that honor. You don’t wish to return to a detente, but would restore the old status quo without beating an eyelash. Proof? Just hang around here a few days. Such drivel will be drivved.
Ellen DeGeneres came out as gay shortly before her character in her first sitcom did. That was in 1997, and from Wikipedia:
That show was cancelled because its ratings dropped. Later, The Ellen Show lasted 3.5 months (Sep 2001-Jan 2002) and was a ratings flop. DeGeneres went on to host her talk show from 2003 through 2022.
Saying “‘member when Ellen came out on her sitcom, and got tacitly fired anyway” is like saying “‘member when JFK got shot and people went to the moon”: it’s falsely implies some close connection between events that were merely sequential in history and connected by the common involvement of one person.
‘member when Ellen came out on her sitcom, and got tacitly fired anyway? When was that? 1985? 1995? Oh, wait. 2001.
What other things that never happened do you remember?
Even ignoring the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about, DeGeneres' sexual orientation wasn't exactly a well-kept secret to anyone who didn't have their head lodged firmly up their own backside. It's just, much like Freddy Mercury, Charles Nelson Reily, and numerous other successful entertainment industry celebrities through the past few decades, nobody cared about it.
Cool, so just to be clear, you're endorsing perpetual eye for an eye retribution. So tolerant and progressive comrade.
And the left’s new rules of “cancel culture” are characterized by a mob like frenzy to silence/censor anyone expressing an opposing opinion on a political or social subject with which the left disagrees. This is the offensive “cancel culture.” The left’s mania doesn’t require the victim to be anyone of import who could influence matters. A reaction to an outrageous call or support for presidential assassination is not the left’s cancel culture or any variation of it. Cancel culture is just a new manifestation of the communist mania to silence all opposition. It is not someone in society responsibly enforcing the norms of civilized discourse. This is not a “degree” of “cancel culture,”unless one defines cancel culture as simply enforcing all norms of behavior in society. How about defining terms before the argument? The article isn’t brilliant at all. It’s sophomoric.
You're sophmoronic.
Nice try characterizing right-wing speech as "civilized discourse" and left-wing speech as "communist mania." At least you're transparent about your biases.
“we suffered first, and therefore anything we do to make others suffer will always be justified.”
Ah yes, prior innocence appears again! Such an immutable feature of a certain— ahem— ideology
The libs can always apologize and compensate everyone they have hurt. I would suggest REPARATIONS to the tune of $1,000,000 to come from liberal organizations.
Frankly, I doubt that gray-state courts would classify calling for somebody’s assassination as “political speech.”
Or, they just might.
You want to play this game, fine.
1) What was the conditional nature of her post?
2) Given the near miraculous partial miss, how could her post be considered hyperbole?
3) Given her posting history and the reaction of those who politically agree with her, would the average person consider it to be hyperbole?
It might not be hyperbole, but "Too bad they weren't a better shooter" isn't a threat (Watts' statement taken at face value could be a threat since he vowed to have LBJ in his sights).
True, which is why nobody is saying it’s a threat. The question presented is whether you would find it to be hyperbolic political speech and not say, a genuine wish that the next assassination attempt succeeds. Because if your position is that genuine wishes of a politicians death by assassination are protected political speech, we have a much bigger problem to discuss.
In that case, we have a bigger problem. That genuine wish is political (assassination of a politician is a political act) and protected speech, whether or not it is hyperbolic.
The question is not whether it is protected from government action by the First Amendment. The question is a completely different one, whether it is protected from PRIVATE employer action by state law. I suspect the kind of “political speech” that state law protects does not include calls for somebody’s murder. And I don’t think the fact that the person happens to be a politician would be relevant in the slightest. Calls for somebody to commit a crime of violence against somebody else are not the sort of “political speech” state public policy, and these laws, are intended to protect.
Would you consider calls to rape a politician to be political soeech? Rape the politician’s children? What about raping or murdering a teacher, a bus driver, or some other government employee? Is that political speech?
Wishing a politician to be raped is political speech. Their children. no. A teacher or bus driver, no. But nonetheless in most cases, it's protected speech.
"Protected" in this context doesn't mean protected from any consequences. When someone speaks out in the public square, they invite commentary, criticism, and public reaction. When someone memorializes a hot take on a web site (that isn't "disappearing media" like Snapchat supports), they make it a lot easier for millions of people to see exactly what they said, and it's a good idea to think before posting attributable hot takes like that.
Commentary and criticism, sure. Being fired from Home Depot? No.
You're certainly free to disagree with the logic explained in National Association for the Advancement of Colored People v. Claiborne Hardware Co., 458 U.S. 886 (1982), but you should probably explain where you disagree or why you think it’s irrelevant.
The merchants weren't being boycotted for things they said, but rather to put pressure on elected officials to change the law. So, speech is not at issue and the analogy to this case fails.
That being said, I'm uneasy about canceling uninvolved merchants, but some were owned by elected officials.
The core question of that case was whether the advocates of the boycott — public reaction beyond just “commentary and criticism” — were liable to the otherwise uninvolved hardware stores. None of the justices dissented from the answer of “no”. I don’t understand what discussion you think you were making about speech not being involved, because that advocacy of a boycott is legally protected speech — even in the absence of either action or speech that it responded to, applied purely as political pressure.
The merchants weren’t engaging in speech (they are analogous to the fired employee – the ones being canceled).
Yes, and the Supreme Court said that the NAACP was allowed to advocate that boycott -- making them analogous to Home Depot in this case. Do you think the NAACP and other advocates of that boycott morally wrong even though they were legally in the clear?
The NAACP was not morally wrong (and not analogous to Home Depot) because they weren't canceling anyone for their speech.
Firstly, I am of the opinion that if it is protected from government sanction, it ought to be protected from beng fired at Home Depot (with the exception of speech that interferes with doing the job, such as "I hate people like you, get out of this store").
Secondly, she did not call for anyone's murder. Nor, did she call for someone to commit a crime (*). She lamented he wasn't murdered.
(*) Note, calls to commit a crime are protected speech if they are neither true threats or incitement of imminent lawless conduct. It certainly appears I am in the minority. People apparently think employers should fire people for speech that is protected from government sanction. But then, how do you draw the line?
I am a bit confused as to your view here. I assume you aren’t suggesting that 1A prevents Home Depot firing an employee for their speech.
Are you saying that HD ought not to fire someone for their (offsite) speech as an ethical proposition ?
Or are you saying the law should be adjusted so as to prohibit HD from firing someone for their speech ? And such prohibition would be OK 1A wise ?
Or something else ?
HD ought not fire someone as an ethical proposition.
A better cite is this one, which is almost directly parallel, unlike Watts.
I don’t generally approve of cancel culture, especially minimum wage home depot employees.
But there is a difference between misgendering someone, and openly rooting for someone’s death and expressing disappointment ibecause someone isn’t shot in the head.
But I’m not to worried she’s going to see someone’s maga hat and purposely recommend unsanded grout, when the specifically told her they were spacing the tile at 3/16 inch knowing full well the grout will crack and fall out and they are going to have to regrout in 2-3 years.
At least I hope she wouldn’t do that, but it would probably serve somebody right for listening to a home depot employee about technical details like that anyway.
I worked at a Home Depot for a year 6 years ago. I unloaded trucks. Was the best physical job ever. Fast paced, little thinking, very enjoyable. 2 hours of strenuous bliss. Challenging oneself is rewarding, and it's also why I enjoyed shot-putting in my 30s 30 years ago.
But, to the caliber of typical 'Depot people, I'd say maybe you're right on average. For myself, when confronted with a challenge, I gave it my best even when earning 12 an hour.
People should realize that when they help someone else, they help themself too by providing a better outcome and hence, hopefully, a better world.
I can't believe I'm agreeing with you, but . . . 🙂
I am consistently and constantly pleasantly surprised as how often I find "lower" workers (I'm talking only about people earning at or about minimum wage--I can't think of a less potentially-offensive term to use in its place) who bend over backwards to help me and others. Who serve me at restaurants with a smile...even at the end of a long shift. Who give me advice and helpful hints (looking at you, Home Depot and Best Buy), EVEN WHEN it means losing some commission.
I am repeatedly depressed at how many shitty people there are in my country. And usually, they are the loudest voices. But I'm far more often cheered by how many more really kind and decent people there are. "So shines a good deed in a weary world."*
*Willy Wonka
You are not watching enough Jordan Peterson videos on Personality.
Agreeable people behave agreeably. They get a buzz from people liking them. Agreeableness is negatively correlated with promotion and positively correlated with being taken advantage of.
Disagreeable people tend to rise, though to rise a long way they have to learn to camouflage their disagreeableness.
Very disagreeable people, of course, end up in prison.
There’s nothing surprising about finding lots of agreeable people in lowly jobs. And lots of assholes at the top.
Dividing people into 'agreeable and disagreeable' is not good social science. But then, no one listens to Jordan Peterson for actual science.
Perhaps not, but it's quite common in psychology. Maybe that's why people don't consider social science real science.
"But then, no one listens to Jordan Peterson for actual science."
Right, because the College of Psychologists of Ontario cancelled him over politics. Surely you wouldn't endorse that, right?
Quoting 1980s psychology as though it's good science.
Jordan Peterson is not a scientist. I would say his career choices subsequent to resigning as a professor have made it pretty clear where his ambitions lie, and it's not science.
"Quoting 1980s psychology as though it’s good science."
Your comment seems like you're intending to imply that using agreeableness in Psychology is no longer current. Is that true? You wouldn't imply something that's not true, would you?
Pop-psychology is fun.
It is nothing for anyone to live their life by.
Oh, and nice change of thesis on my behalf. Here is my thesis: “Dividing people into ‘agreeable and disagreeable’ is not good social science.”
Note how different it is from “using agreeableness in Psychology.”
Maybe argue against what I say, not some shitty strawman.
"Note how different it is from “using agreeableness in Psychology.”
How is it different?
And in any event, your "thesis" doesn't make any sense. Dividing people based on some criteria isn't science, good or bad, but it may be a component of science, good or bad.
Understand that the term "good social science" when translated from its native bozo means "forwards the narrative we are trying to push". Nothing more and nothing less than this.
I don't particularly think Jordan Peterson is particularly a scientist, but what he does is orders of magnitude more sciency than anything Sarcastro argues or does and it seems to me that in some cases Peterson is actually insightful where Sarcastro's methodology lacks any redeeming value. It always amazes me when folks who take forms of Critical Theory seriously think they have anything to say on the topic of science.
I don’t particularly think Jordan Peterson is particularly a scientist, but what he does is orders of magnitude more sciency than anything Sarcastro argues
That's probably because you've seen his current public persona which is political, and to some extent religious, rather than his psychology lectures. But as I mentioned to Sarcastro elsewhere he has loads of psychology papers published, with more than 20,000 citations for them on Google Scholar. That's quite enough to be called a scientist.
It's a bit like Paul Krugman, who now does nothing but politics. But it would be silly to say that for that reason he's not an economist,
Sarcastro does not know whereof he speaks. It's a day with a Y in it.
Dividing people into ‘agreeable and disagreeable’ is not good social science.
It's a distribution not a division. RTQ.
But then, no one listens to Jordan Peterson for actual science.
He has more than 20,000 citations for his psychology papers on Google Scholar. I couldn't be bothered to count the total number of papers, but there were over 40 with more than 100 citations.
How about you ?
"I am consistently and constantly pleasantly surprised as how often I find “lower” workers (I’m talking only about people earning at or about minimum wage–I can’t think of a less potentially-offensive term to use in its place) who bend over backwards to help me and others."
It happens often enough I'm not surprised :-). When I have hitchhiked, for example, it's not people in Mercedes who stopped to pick me up. With the yuuuuge disclaimer that I don't think I'm very good at analyzing people, I think that you find less empathy the farther you get from minimum wage. If you have ever driven a beater with a broken gas gauge, or not filled up because you only had $10, then when you see someone standing there out of gas you think 'there but for the grace of God go I' as opposed to 'dummy should have just had the dealer fix the gauge or filled up'.
I also think there is a lot of truth to Lee Moore's "Agreeableness is negatively correlated with promotion and positively correlated with being taken advantage of. Disagreeable people tend to rise, ..."
I disagree with the cynical take that Lee has.
I've seen people change their behavior when you lean forward/confess you need help, etc.
It's honestly a pretty leftist proposition - that a capitalist society selects for assholes. I don't buy it as a core proposition - plenty of managers are externally motivated, i.e. get off on being liked.
This is the same fallacy as the sociopathy test. Sounds right, but not really backed up with anything but vibes.
"that a capitalist society selects for assholes. '
What is your proof for an absurd proclamation. Radical leftism has also selected for assholes.
Trump is an asshole. AOC is an asshole. What does that prove? that being a politician selects for assholes/
Read the very next sentence, Don: "I don't buy it as a core proposition."
Why do you keep failing like this.
AOC is an asshole not seeing it - you don't like her politics, that's all.
He didn't fail. He understood precisely why you included "core" as a weasel word there.
What weaseling is going on? At worst core is redundant.
Do you entirely reject the proposition “that a capitalist society selects for assholes” (specifically, to a degree greater than some reasonable set of alternatives types of society)?
I think you mistake me for a leftist. I'm a liberal; I like capitalism, just not laissez faire capitalism.
I don’t think a capitalist society selects for assholes in most areas of life, absolutely nor relative to some other economic system.
Not as heads of business
Not citizens
Not even politicians.
There’s a lot of branding not just on the left but mainstream and even accepted on the right about business ghouls for whom people are just instruments of profit. I think that’s quite rarely a thing with actual people.
Corporations are not people, but they have some requirements that in a human would make them assholes.
For somebody who complains about other people supposedly dodging a question, you spend a lot of words dodging questions.
But you very thoroughly demonstrated the kind of weaseling I was talking about.
How the fuck is this a dodge?
You: "Do you entirely reject the proposition “that a capitalist society selects for assholes” (specifically, to a degree greater than some reasonable set of alternatives types of society)?
Me: "I don’t think a capitalist society selects for assholes in most areas of life, absolutely nor relative to some other economic system."
Any society selects for assholes, so long as you define “asshole” as “person with a less agreeable personality than average.”
Nothing special about “capitalism.” The reason is straightforward - being a position of power over others often requires (if you are to succeed at your task) taking decisions that will be unpopular. Agreeable people are capable of doing this but it takes an effort because they care a lot about being disliked.
Disagreeable people do not have to steel themselves because they don’t care so much about what other people think of them. (Emotionally - obviously they care instrumentally when the unpopularity hurts them.)
"...not really backed up with anything but vibes."
One of many results for a search of "CEO sociopath": "About 1 percent of the population may qualify as having psychopathic behavior, while among senior executives, that rate climbs to 3.5 percent."
Beware Gaslight0's isolated demands for epistemic rigor.
I’m sorry EV but you are WRONG here.
It is a CRIME, a Federal Offense, to threaten the life of any USSS protectee. Donald Trump, Hunter Biden, Jimmy Carter — it doesn’t matter who, this is a content-neutral law.
While what she did was kinda grey (in an earlier era, it’d at least earn her a personal visit from the USSS), I don’t have a problem with firing someone advocating the assassination OF ANYONE….
Would it somehow be different if she advocated the assassination of Brandon? We don’t do such things in this country….
Who's Brandon???
Hang Mike Pence?
What she said was "To [sic] bad they weren't a better shooter!!!!!"
That’s not threatening anyone, and is clearly first amendment-protected speech. Just like, say, calling for illegal immigrants or protesters to be murdered, or celebrating sex workers being raped.
I've actually done neither -- been very careful not to.
Legitimate state use of deadly force is not "murder" -- come on lawyers, you know I am right. And as to whores, I pointed out the concept of assumption of risk.
Congress, in its infinite wisdom, has created a special category of people -- USSS Protectees -- and made threatening THEM a Federal Offense. I could (not am) say you deserve to be shot and that is protected speech, but saying that (any) Federal Protectee deserves to be shot is a Federal Offense.
Until you get a court to rule this unconstitutional, it is the law.
I honestly think that it is unconstitutional -- as was the Civil Rights Act -- I also think that both are good ideas....
Careful is the absolute last thing you’ve done in gleefully calling for and celebrating the victimization and deaths of countless innocent people. But of course, none of it comes anywhere close to anything to at could be criminally punishable.
As could have been trivially predicted by the fact that Dr. Ed said it, it is not.
You mean like this?
"Cancel culture totally isn't a thing, it's consequence culture."
--Every leftist everywhere, probably.
If the left suddenly doesn't like the cancel culture it created, it should work to get rid of it.
Rush Limbaugh created cancel culture long ago. Dixie Chicks anyone?
Didn't they cancel themselves while appropriating the name of an Australian band?
Is that how you choose to remember it, Michael?
They don't call themselves The Dixie Chicks any more, so it is more than just my memory. If you remember it differently, perhaps you should join Gaslight0 and Brandon in the memory care unit.
Is them removing Dixie from their name all you recall happening? You seem to be missing huge chunks of reality when we bring up past conservative behavior
As you haven't cited any worse impacts than them changing their name, I assume you don't know of any such impacts. After all, one of them leaned very strongly into a "their appeal is becoming more selective" mindset:
As you haven’t cited any worse impacts than them changing their name, I assume you don’t know of any such impacts.
Or he thinks it's too obvious to bother leading your sealioning ass to.
It's only on him if he can't back up his use of them as an example.
Dixie Chicks did quite well for themselves after the incident.
Shame they alienated their actual audience.
And by "alienated," you mean their conservative fans tried to cancel them?
By alienated, I mean they annoyed the people who would have bought their crap.
They are not entitled to other people's money.
Notice that they only complain about cancel culture when it looks like their side might be cancelled?
1. People getting fired for saying shitty political stuff has been a thing for a long long time.
2. This Internet mob shut isn't that. If you see anything like it on the left, feel free to point it out.
“Cancel culture totally isn’t a thing, it’s consequence culture.”
–Every leftist everywhere, probably.
If the left suddenly doesn’t like the cancel culture it created, it should work to get rid of it and compensate every one of their victims - $1M each.
There fixed it for you
"[W]eaponize your millions of followers to turn a random woman into a national pariah” is very bad. And it is bad to call it cool and good because the libs deserve it for being very bad.
I'm trying to think of some MAGA person being targeted like that, though I honestly don’t see this particular style of siccing a social media mob being used against Trump supporters.
The twitter account that tweeted this was doxxed by the Washington Post, and you supported the Washington Post.
Doxxing is bad.
But come the fuck on, TiP. She's been fine; she continues to train her right-wing followers on randos utterly unprepared for that kind of insanity.
I hope you are being sarcastic. Dare I mention the countless examples of people getting fired for tweets about their OK hand gestures?
How about how Carl Benjamin got his Patreon suspended for mocking Clinton? If memory serves, his bank account was cancelled.
That was far less violent than wishing for murder.
I note a lack of a mob being involved in all your examples.
?
A mob shrieked about whatever it was Carl Benjamin said. As a result, he "got his Patreon [channel] suspended" and possibly "his bank account...cancelled." You probably supported this. So why complain now?
Whatever it was. Sure seems serious.
Bank account cancelled seems pretty nuts; never heard of that before. Have you considered looking into the facts at all?
Are you saying that the cancellation of Carl Benjamin wasn't "a leftist project"?! You're delusional (or just lying).
I'm saying all I know about Sargon of Akkad was that he was an Internet political guy with a lot of edgy takes who ran for office.
IIRC he's British.
I am SURE there is more to the story than you relate. I just don't care enough to go deep into it.
Look, we can debate individual situations and whether they are justified or not, but your attempt to claim that the left never does anything like this is ludicrously, absurdly false. So much that I initially thought it was a joke.
Goodness.
Coastie removed for OK hand sign: "The agency responded swiftly to the ensuing social media backlash."
(Bonus points there for "Whatever that symbol means, it doesn't reflect the Coast Guard and our core values," Coast Guard Lt JB Zorn told NBC News.". Bit of a logic failure there.)
Utility worked fired for, well, not even the OK sign: "The picture made the rounds on Twitter accompanied by a claim Cafferty was making a "white power" hand gesture".
(Not sure why it matters if someone is fired for an innocuous gesture because of a twitter mob or just because their employer fears one or is just overly sensitive)
Hot take - no one should be fired for making the OK sign.
But as I've said before, when I see a pic of a bunch of white boys flashing the sign at the camera my antennae go up.
Less because it's a white supremacist shibboleth, but because it's a thing a buncha white supremacists do to troll the libs.
"white supremacists"
you decided that based on the color of their skin. It figures.
1. As I lay out in my comment, it's not just them being white.
2. Not sure you know what 'antennae go up' means.
Double fail on this one, Don!
You don't do this in replies to anyone else; I've never see anything like it.
"2. Not sure you know what ‘antennae go up’ means.
That you're an insect.
It means a member of the colony has detected the chemical smell of someone that is not part of their clan, and that troops must be marshaled for the attack. In all, a fitting metaphor for “cancel culture” as well as being a bit too revealing as to the commenter’s subject blindness.
"Less because it’s a white supremacist shibboleth, but because it’s a thing a buncha white supremacists do to troll the libs."
But it's also a thing that people who aren't white supremacists do to troll the libs.
And it's also a thing that people who aren't white supremacists do to say, "OK".
So if your antennae go up, that's probably on you.
"when I see a pic of a bunch of white boys flashing the sign at the camera my antennae go up."
As is sometimes said here, no new goalposts.
Here is the photo that got the utility worker fired. I'm really not seeing a lot of white supremacy there.
This Home Depot employee was much less made a parish than, say, Central Park Karen or the “Has Justine Landed Yet?” woman.
Your memory seems to be awful.
Both bad.
From a while ago, and not leftist projects.
No new goalposts. And yes, they were very much done by leftists. The supposedly racist angle of “Central Park Karen” was a huge factor in the left singling her out for pariah status. Witness hobie being his usual shitty self right below.
Maybe you would like Gina Carano as a more recent, explicitly leftist example of cancellation.
The crazy thing is, she was cancelled for a thoughtful post against "hating someone for their political views." "Liberals" were outraged, of course!
https://x.com/HerbScribner/status/1359576970762219523
Michel, my goalposts: "I’m trying to think of some MAGA person being targeted like that, though I honestly don’t see this particular style of siccing a social media mob being used against Trump supporters.”
Nowhere near met.
And Gina's issue wasn't a mob; it was that she couldn't shut up on twitter when her management told her to shut up on twitter.
I liked her character.
It's easy for a federal government employee to say it's cool for private-sector employees to be fired because they said something (unrelated to their job) that their employer didn't like, but it would normally be surprising to hear that from someone who claims not to prefer corporations over individuals. In the case of "some MAGA person", though, your partisan priors make it unsurprising.
Yet again, I’m talking about LoTT.
Businesses making marketing decisions with moral moment to them is inevitable, and thus their involvement in moral panics and general morality policing is a pretty complicated subject, actually, that has no easy answers.
My favorite example is not this frankly more heat than light anecdote-by-anecdote which-side-to-blame firing thing.
Banks (well, credit companies) have internal reputational risk groups that discuss what porn companies are legit enough they’ll process their payments.
Yes – banks have a strong hand in what porn is out there.
You think LoTT’s name is Gina?
As usual, you make excuses and allowances for your side and demand far more rigor for anything you disagree with.
I've made it very, very, clear the mob is my issue.
You just don't want to talk about that, so you keep trying to change what I'm saying so you can argue over where you want to argue.
I've opined a bit on the firing issue on this thread, but I'm not going to argue much there because that's not the issue that's making so many on here reveal themselves as horrible.
So your concern is not at all what LoTT says, but the fact that she has a significant audience, and that some of the audience might behave badly even when she does not suggest bad behavior. You’re blaming her for the behavior of third parties.
That reminds me — a lot — of the argument made by a certain bad-faith serial litigant that EV writes about occasionally (and has been a litigation party against) in the context of that serial litigant’s efforts to seal her various unsuccessful lawsuits. That litigant’s argument is that because EV writes about her, and she supposedly gets (or might get) threats related to her litigation, EV should be gagged from writing about her.
The argument that LoTT should just shut up and stop writing about random people is just as flawed as that litigant’s argument that EV should just shut up and stop writing about her lawsuits.
To a substantial degree, I think a role like LoTT’s is necessary in our culture. The government or private entities need to apply the norms about what speech is acceptable. It’s not always one or the other: certain speech might be illegal or tortious, and other speech might only get private reactions. Naturally, in the latter situation, not all private parties will respond in the same way. However, an equilibrium where private employers and schools respond to concerns raised by random people with no audience is not sustainable: there will be too many unwarranted complaints, leading to many complaints being ignored and/or to overzealous enforcement of norms against the targets of complaints. The sustainable equilibrium is for employers and schools to tend to ignore complaints from those without an audience, unless those complaints come with excellent documentation. And even then, private and unpublicized sanctions will not deter others from repeating the same kind of mistake; either the complaints or the punishments must be publicized in order to communicate the norms that are enforced. Our laws discourage publication of punishments by schools or employers, leaving the “solution” as publication of complaints by people or organizations with significant audiences.
To be sure, there are other possible solutions. Europe gives the government broad powers to suppress speech, making it the judge, jury and executor for social media as well as other speech. We could relax defamation liability law for employers and universities, and they could publish information about the cases they investigate and handle. But for communicating and modifying social-media norms, LoTT-type accounts are the mechanism that is most compatible with the rest of the current US legal system.
Me: "There are other ways to get Home Depot to comment than to make a public tweet about it when your followers are a mob of assholes eager to target anyone you highlight.
LoTT didn’t do that."
I'm not suggesting she be quiet, I'm suggesting she not orchestrate her mob of Internet psychos.
You're on a strawmanning tear because you don't want to talk about it.
You are on an arm-waving tear because you're too eager to cancel LoTT for being conservative -- as usual.
In particular, you haven’t even suggested any other mechanism that serves the (important) purpose of publicly communicating the bounds of normal behavior. This needs to include examples as well as statements of policy or terms, because the latter are always going to be abstract and ambiguous at some level, and people tend to game any system with fixed or known rules.
Central Park Karen was pretty bad though. Screeching at the Black man was one thing, but mindlessly chocking her dog all the while was the clincher. I'm sure her life has stabilized by now, though
re: "From a while ago..."
Well, sure, it took non-leftists a while to adopt the Left's tactics. Now you're screaming bloody murder. (And denying all responsibility for supporting this crap previously.)
Well, sure, it took non-leftists a while to adopt the Left’s tactics.
Any sign of the left in those? Or just gonna blame all the bad things on the left just 'cause.
As I remember it early twitter mobs were a nonpartisan 'this is fun' moment before people realized how awful it was.
Then it calmed down.
Then this awful woman turned it into a right-wing partisan exercise, and y'all love it because there's a large span of the right what just wants people not like them to suffer.
Has GaslightO forgotten the Tiki Torch Brigade?
Uh..have people dropped their brains on the floor today? Calling for the killing of domestic political figures has always been almost universally considered wrong by the majority of both the left and right.
I’m not sure where Eugene is getting this idea that there was this big push from the mainstream right for the freedom to say Obama and Biden should be killed without consequence before the Trump assassination attempt
She didn’t call for killing Trump. She regretted that he wasn’t killed. The OP agrees, that’s bad behavior, but it is not a fireable offense (at least for the ordinary Home Depot worker). And, the right has called for firing people who make comparably bad statements.
Now perhaps you think this statement goes well beyond statements the right has felt justified canceling. I agree with the OP the statements are comparable.
Again please post the link to the concerted long term mainstream push by conservatives to legally enshrine a guarantee of zero negative consequences for praisings or hopes of assassinations of democrats. Unlimited license to say absolutely anything you want without any consequences doesn't sound like any mainstream conservative platform I ever heard of. Thats more a libertarian thing. Eugene is literally projecting his own values on to conservatives than calling them out for hypocrisy for not living up to it.
This is a silly gotcha post where the gotcha was invented in the mind of the authors.
What you don't appreciate is “Too bad they weren’t a better shooter” is comparable to "send that [nword] Obama back to Kenya." I do believe there is a manistream belief that should not be a firing offense for Home Depot workers (and, I agree).
Deportation is as bad as assassination? Wow you are delusional.
They are equally protected by freedom of speech from government sanction, and hence ought to be equally protected from being fired from the Home Depot.
AHHH. You’re saying you think they “ought to be.” You’re not actually saying you think they are.
I don’t see why government has any business interfering with people’s private business to stop the kind of social approbation that comes when people call for violent crime against a specific individual. What interest does the government have in interfering with people’s freedom of association in such a case?
I'm not expressing an opinion whether the government should step in to keep this woman from being fired. I am only saying she should not have been. Wouldn't it be nice if we could cancel cancel culture without government interference?
No. In a free society different people have different opinions, including employers. Some will be very offended by an employee’s offsite speech or behaviour and will not wish to continue to employ them. Others will be relaxed and super tolerant.
And likewise for employees. If their employer starts doing things they disapprove of, on or offsite, then if they wish to take their labor elsewhere that’s their affair.
I don’t believe society would be better by attempting to “norm” employee firing practices. I’m happy to leave that to the market.
That’s an enitrely defensible way to draw the line. But in that case, you have no right to complain if HD fires someone for posting on social media “trans women are delusional men.”
In contrast, I think such a firing is wrong.
I don’t think that follows. Since I am arguing that it’s perfectly OK for one employer to fire an employee for something that another employer would not, I am not compelled to accept the equality of all offenses against employer sensibilities.
I can applaud Employer A for firing Employee X for dissing the US Women’s Soccer Team, and condemn Employer B for firing Employee Y for supporting the Green Bay Packers.
I can, quite consistently, attach different values to different employee “crimes”. I am not obliged to regard them as equal so that the same principle applies to each.
OK. How do you draw the line between applauding and condeming?
Josh R, do you seriously not understand the conceptual difference between applause and condemnation?
What I don't understand is the standard for choosing applause versus condemenation.
Attention, "sealion" brigade: Cleanup required on aisle 9. One of your guys pretends to not understand why people applaud some things and condemn others.
Is it anything besides one's personal opinion? Because if not, it's a crap standard that will lead oodles and oodles of people fired who shoud not be. Enough of the my-side-against-your-side cancel culture!
There is not one single "the standard for choosing applause versus condemnation", but instead a very personal decision process. That's also a different standard than firing or not, and also from hiring or not -- and all of those are somewhat subjective or personal. That's why I said elsewhere that there are complex rules for how people respond to what others do!
You may claim it is a good faith complex decision all you want. I think it's a my-side-against-your-side shit show.
How about I lay out what I think the rule set should look like, and you tell me which rules are extraneous or too complex, or too aligned to partisan considerations? There is some overlap between the heuristics I list, but I think the non-overlapping parts are important to consider.
Assumptions:
i. These address off-the-job behavior, including speech. On-the-job issues are very dependent on safety and security risks of the particular job, and also not relevant to the motivating example of Home Depot and Pinckney (HD-DWP). I also don't address how to handle behavior by pupils/students.
ii. These are my personal thinking, and not strongly held. I am an engineer -- with a decade and counting as technical lead and/or line manager -- rather than in HR or employment law, and the few times I have had to discipline anyone it was for on-the-job behavior (inebriation, including drinking during the workday, or incompetence+insubordination).
iii. I assume the employer's options are a scale similar to: no action, informal discussion, verbal warning, formal written reprimand, suspension, termination.
iv. These focus on determining the severity of response, and do not consider adjacent, important questions of process. For example, I tend to think that whether legal action could (or is) being pursued should be irrelevant to the employer's response, even though it is not ideal to conduct separate investigations. As another notable example, if the employee's off-the-job behavior could lead to liability for the employer, then investigation and corrective action is much more urgent; but that should not directly affect the severity of response: if the employer thinks the response is too mild, then the corrective action should include additional training or some other institutional change rather than ad-hoc harsher punishment.
v. After writing up the list below, I tend to think that whether the behavior is "speech" or not is not a significant independent driver of workplace discipline. Of course, laws (as in item 1) might affect that.
In rough order of importance (I debated the order of 4 vs 5):
1. Does law constrain the discipline, such as the examples EV cited in the main post? If yes, then satisfy those constraints. (This can be hard to determine in advance.)
2. Is the employee a public face of the firm (executive, spokesperson, performer/athlete/etc)? If so, urgency of investigation and severity of response should increase.
3. Did the employee have constructive knowledge that the behavior was prohibited, whether through training or previous discipline? If so, severity should increase.
4. Did the behavior reflect a risk that the employee would violate a duty specific to their role (such as drug abuse for health care, assault for a child care provider, fraud for financial services, etc.)? If so, severity should increase.
5. Did the off-the-job behavior adversely affect others in the workplace (employees, customers, suppliers, partners, etc.)? If so, severity should increase.
6. Is the behavior one that otherwise reflects on the employee's plausible behavior in the workplace? If so, severity should increase.
In the HD-DWP case, I assume #1 answers "no", believe #2 through #5 answer "no", and think a "yes" to #6 is reasonable but debatable. So I think the right action would have been on the level of informal discussion rather than anything more severe.
My comments concern only off-the-job speech.
#1 is a given. I understand from a PR perspective why #2 is different and the employee ought to be sanctioned, but I still don't like it. #3 begs the question whether the off-the-job-speech should have been punishable in the first place. #4 through #6 almost never result from off-the-job speech (and did not in HD).
You’re moving the goalposts. We’re not talking about the first amendment we’re talking about freedom from professional consequences.
Contrary to the fevered imaginings of Eugene and Binion to justify their bothsides posts there hasn’t been a mainstream protests by conservatives in favor of assassination posts.
Now there has been rumblings that people should be protected from private organization retaliation for their political speech. But this is in contexts other than praising assassinations . Also its a pretty big reach and pretty sloppy for a professor who makes a living supposedly being quantitative and precise to assume the academic libertarian right leaning faction that debates the particulars of the 1st Amendments interactions with modern corporate structures are the same people who got one far leftist fired for praising assassinations.
Again, you think that lamenting Trump (or Obama) not being assassinated is worse than other speech. But why, and how do you draw that line?
https://xkcd.com/1357/
HTH, HAND.
It appears you support being canceled for any reason the private-sector canceler wants. So if someone gets fired for posting on social media for posting "trasns women are delusional men," you have no right to complain.
It appears Josh R can't read and doesn't understand simple points, in addition to thinking that factually true comments about mental illness are morally equivalent to supporting an assassination attempt.
Correction: Michael P supports private-sector canceling in some cases, but not others. I have no idea where and how he draws the line, except perhaps it's not OK when someone speaks the truth as he sees it.
This xkcd was very popular in lefty circles, a veritible paean to cancel culture.
There is a huge range of stupid things can do, and a correspondingly broad range of how others can react, some of which are perfectly fine reactions, some of which are contingent or neutral in valence, some of which are legal but immoral, and some of which are illegal (some of which are probably moral in some cases).
It is correspondingly infantile to think that there is a "line" to be drawn rather than a complex set of rules that depend not only on the specific facts but also the cultural context and norms surrounding those facts.
A “complex set of rules” strikes me as a recipe for canceling the things you don’t like while opposing canceling things you do like. And firing someone should lean very heavily towards not canceling.
Saying "lean very heavily" is an implicit admission that there is, in fact, complex and fact-bound logic about how to respond to any actual/specific incident.
This after decades of heavily-enforced "political correctness" -- and not just at private companies like Home Depot, but even public universities!
Josh R is the new Sarcastr0.
Past discretions on the left (or right) have no bearing on the analysis of this case. She should not be fired. Ditto if she said the same exact thing about Obama.
The hypothetical anti-Obama remark, if phrased as you phrased it, would call into question the employee’s willingness to treat all races equally (I refer to the person's use of the Kirkland Word). So, yes, HR should look into it and see if the employee treats people without racial discrimination. If not, fire the employee.
"Treats People Without Racial Discrimination"??
What the Fuck do you think "Affirmative Action" is? Why does the Census need to know my Race? or the Medical Board? or Anybody? (I always put "Human" for "Race?" and "Yes Please" for "Sex?" (HT A. Powers KG) Why did Parkinsonian Joe pick Ka-grungy Jackson Brown for the Surpremes ?(Diana Ross would have been a better pick)
Frank
Because she was already a Supreme.
Josh, are you talking about a lawful deportation or kidnapping him?
I don't know about the current cadre of clowns, but there was a time when you'd be in trouble for saying the latter.
There was, in point of fact, not.
Forget consequences; saying "Hang Mike Pence" makes you a hero to Republicans. (Not conservatives; there is absolutely nothing conservative about MAGA.) But, I mean, apparently you missed the Texas/Florida attempts to prevent people who engage in that sort of speech from even being booted off Twitter, let alone being fired.
Just following the rules as laid down by the left. Offend ANYONE, even a 1,000 miles away, you lose your job.
The Libs created this game and now don't want to play.
Let the games begin.
It’s tattling, Amos.
Welcome to the party of gleeful call your manager tattletales.
Emmanuel Cafferty.
It's wrong to support personal violence in most cases.
The language is often rhetorical. The First Amendment protects personal opinion including "I wish he died" (let's say of a rapist in a car accident). That is from government action. With certain exceptions, including speech at work in various instances.
The principles of free speech should also protect such expression. I agree with one comment that generally it would be good public policy to protect workers from being fired as a general matter. Home Depot should not be able to fire a person for being a Republican either.
People often speak to let off steam. They are not speaking after deep thought about the issues. Some comments here are crude statements. There is a value in broadly allowing the right to express oneself in this way, including in the stress of the moment.
The individual comments can very well be wrong. If someone has some influence (lots of followers) or a job of some public importance (a government official) they have an additional ethical responsibility. Sometimes, a public response that criticizes such comments is warranted.
A clerk at Home Depot is low on the totem pole. It is a bad policy to "cancel" such people in this fashion. The term is sometimes overused. Sometimes the response is warranted -- if a celebrity says something offensive, the person is fair game for strong criticism that might hurt their Instagram hits.
But, we need to have some perspective here, especially as people in the immediate reaction to stressful events express their emotions.
I disagree. As a matter of public policy freedom of association is just as important as freedom of speech. It just doesn’t happen to be supported by 1A.
Freedom of association is protected by the 1A.
Regulation of public accommodations remains different from regulation of truly private speech.
A person can decide not to marry based on race, religion, and a range of other things that should not be the basis of a job at Home Depot.
Home Depot can also choose who to hire or fire on the basis of a lot of things that are not very important factors in deciding who to marry. In particular, almost nobody cares whether their spouse does a good job as a worker specifically in a big-box home improvement store, or whether their prospective spouse's public statements reflect well on a big-box home improvement store's public image.
.
Fully disagree. Home Depot should be free to select its employees on any basis whatsoever. (This certainly includes not hiring / firing someone who supports political assassination.)
The Punishment is having to work at Home Depot
Remember a year after the 08' Crash, seeing one of the local Real Estate mini-moguls selling toilets, seemed appropriate. (OK it was Lowe's still a good story)
Frank
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/11/03/nate-silvers-free-speech-is-in-trouble/?comments=true#comment-10303111
“ You are free to speak your mind; I’m free to criticize. I should also be free not to associate with you if I’m sufficiently bothered by what you said.”
This is way farther than that,
?
The employee spoke her mind. Libs of TikTok criticized. Home Depot decided not to associate with the employee.
I don't see a problem.
"Libs of TikTok criticized"
You're a fucking idiot if this is what you think is the issue.
For someone who claims to be a liberal rather than a hardcore leftist, you sure lean hard into "The issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution."
What specifically did LoTT write that you think is so problematic? You've posted a lot of words here and demanded that we condemn her without providing any detail.
“The issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution.”
The issue is in the OP. You don't want to talk about it. Because if you do, you'll show that you are indeed an immoral asshole who just wants to make the other side miserable.
Well, from above the jig is up.
As usual, you project your own failings onto the rest of us.
I and the OP are talking about the same thing. You very much want to talk about something else.
No, you want to go on and on about “you’ll show that you are indeed an immoral asshole who just wants to make the other side miserable” — and in doing so, reveal yourself as the immoral asshole who just wants to make the other side miserable.
Well, you and hobie reveal yourselves as such, any way.
Since leftism is objectively evil and wrong, it's an ethical imperative to cancel anyone propagating it.
Your analysis only works if you consider leftism to be a legitimate set of ideas within a universe of ideas. It's not.
Poor Sabed. You know what you need? To listen to a little Madonna:
FROZEN
You're so consumed with how much you get
You waste your time with hate and regret
You're broken when your heart's not open
Love is a bird, she needs to fly
Let all the hurt inside of you die
You're frozen, when your heart's not open
Step 1: Bad thing happens. Or is speculated to happen. Or a rando on twitter mentions it.
Step 2: The right decries this, and blames the libs [e.g. the Trump shooter dipshit.]
Step 3: The right immediately starts endorsing bad thing when they cause it, citing game theory.
This is how the right loses all principles like a month after they discover them. Own the libs is the only principle.
The left has their issues to be sure; this is not something they do.
You’re right, the left doesn’t wait for the right to do bad things before destroying our society’s norms. The leftist logic process looks more like:
Step 1: The left immediately starts endorsing bad things when they cause them.
One recent notable pattern is blocking democratically nominated candidates from ballots while claiming the other side is an existential threat to democracy.
"destroying our society’s norms."
Listen, I wouldn't want leftists in charge of my party, nor my country. They love nothing more than the purity police, ignore collateral damage via their ideological blinders, and are the worst kind of utopian grumps.
But this isn't politics or policy, it's targeting randos to hurt them.
You're a bad person. Stop being a bad person. You can stop at any time.
They are in charge of your party, though, and the innermost clique has argued that it’s okay to have a near-vegetable as the nominal president because “good” leftists are the ones actually making decisions.
I tend to agree with Darth Buckeye below: Home Depot should have had a frank discussion with her and pointed her to the employee assistance services (or whatever the nearest equivalent is). LoTT didn’t ask for anything more than a comment from Home Depot — your anger is entirely misplaced here — and I think Home Depot was trained to overreact by your side. I linked above to XKCD’s smug “free speech” sketch, which leftists pointed to for years in defending efforts to get people fired and deplatformed for core political comments, much less inflammatory than wishing an assassination attempt against a leading candidate was successful.
Stop projecting your awfulness onto me, and remove the log from your eye before you complain of the stye in mine.
No, leftists are not in charge of the Democratic Party.
You may be an idiot who doesn't know the difference between a Democrat and a leftist, but most folks don't suffer from that malfunction.
I’m so old I remember that Kathy griffin thread from like 3 weeks ago. Interesting contrast.
I'm glad she lost her job. I'll be glad whenever a bad thing happens to a bad person. Simple as that.
You have one data point about this person. And you want their life to be over.
What a horrible way to treat strangers.
You don't get to tell me what I "want". Stick to mind-reading the former and future president.
I can call you out for being a bad person based on what you write.
Maybe it's all an act. But if it's not, you've let partisanship turn you into a bad person.
Wanting people to face the consequences of their own decisions doesn't make me a bad person. Trying to shield people from consequences DOES make you a bad person. That's honestly the one and only plank in the Democrat platform: people must not face the consequences of their own decisions.
Wanting bad things to happen to people just for the sake of them suffering makes you a bad person. Calling them "consequences" doesn't change that.
Especially when these are the consequences only because someone has decided that should be the consequences. If someone gets drunk and drives his car into a tree — well, wanting that to happen to the guy makes you a bad person, but it's something the person did to himself. But that's not what you mean; you mean, punishment imposed by other people.
That is a mindless position. Why should HD give shit what she said?
Arguing about whether they *should* is sort of boring, given that they already proved they *do*. If you have a problem with the employment decision, tell it to the employer. I'm glad she got what she had coming!
Do you remember this?
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414/?fbclid=IwAR0vW8kv0b8QwSCPpWdlVjTfIxFtrLRTqtC4VpexK3BtJrTgAFZHFYnNGUU
**START QUOTE***
It all started about two weeks ago near a Black Lives Matter rally in Poway when Emmanuel Cafferty, a San Diego Gas and Electric employee, encountered a stranger on the roadway.
The stranger followed Cafferty and took a picture of him as his arm hung out the window of his company truck.
The picture made the rounds on Twitter accompanied by a claim Cafferty was making a “white power” hand gesture made popular by white supremacists groups.
According to the Anti-Defamation League, the gesture — made by forming a circle with the thumb and index finger, and extending and separating the other three fingers — has been used in recent years by white supremacists to form the letters W and P, but has also long been used as a sign signifying “OK” or approval. Therefore it shouldn’t be assumed to be a white supremacy symbol unless there is other evidence to support those claims, according to the ADL.
Cafferty claims he was just cracking his knuckles.
Soon after the encounter, a supervisor of Cafferty’s told him he was suspended and that further action may be taken after an investigation. A few days later, he says he was fired.
Cafferty maintains he was unaware of the hand gesture until the whole controversy started.
**END QUOTE***
The best course of action in reaction to this is to have a zero-tolerance anti-snitching culture.
Snitching is always wrong.
No exceptions.
Snitches always get stitches.
No exceptions.
This is the only way out of this.
By the way, I wonder why Priya Sridhar (the author of the article) did not reveal the name and address of the stranger who “followed Cafferty and took a picture of him as his arm hung out the window of his company truck” nor the name and address of Cafferty’s supervisor. Is that not information that the public needs to know?
" . . . accompanied by a claim Cafferty was making a “white power” hand gesture made popular by white supremacists groups."
Actually, it was left wing groups that defined the "OK" gesture as racist, and left wing media that went along with oppression.
White supremacists started it, 4-chan trolls promulgated the white supremacist meaning, and it is now typically dismissed by mainstream media and leftist groups as a 4-chan hoax, and yet white supremacists are drawn to it like flies on shit, mostly for the same trolling as 4-chan.
The link notes:
He was cracking his knuckles by hanging one hand out a window while driving past a Black Lives Matter demonstration? It seems unlikely.
Ah, actually, 4-chan trolls started it as a prank, and then when the left fell for it, white supremacists thought it was hilarious and ran with it.
The purpose was and is trolling, but the origin still sits with white supremacists. Observing that white supremacists use it is not "falling for it".
At most she deserved a counseling. Better yet, a query if she is okay and an offer of help.
Why is it always the ones who make the rules that get upset when someone else plays the game?
It doesn't feel like a game, be it the prisoner's dilemma or global thermonuclear war, to me because I don't care if the person trying to match my paint sample at Home Depot wants Trump dead, Harris dead, both, or neither. Getting that person fired does not make me better off. It's a coin flip whether the next person behind the counter will do a better job.
It's not a game.
It's an excuse.
But you might care that you are free to express your views without being canceled.
If an opponent allows you to say things without cancelling you, it might make sense to allow him to say things without you cancelling him. But if he cancels you when you speak, it might make sense to cancel him when he speaks in retaliation, so he has less incentive to cancel you next time you speak.
You notice how Sarcastro's outrage at this incident contrasts with his complacency at the SDG&E OK sign firings. Perhaps if he understood how his inaction then contributed to this situation, he'd be behave differently when his side cancels people.
I don’t actually notice that at all! What’s your basis for this claim?
When the shoe is on the other foot, Sacrastr0 can often be found making statements along the lines of “freedom of speech, but not freedom from consequences”
I can’t believe you haven’t picked up on his blatant partisanship. Do you have him on mute or something?
I didn't notice more than one firing by SDG&E.
Do people feel similarly about cancelations for non-speech offenses, like when a football player gets suspended for beating his wife?
There's an argument that football teams should let the justice system handle it, and make decisions about football based on football.
Biden out.
Et tu Obama?
Covid got him in, Covid (yeah right) got him out, but why did he have the “Brain Fog” in 1987?
Frank
In a final FU to Obama and the Democrat Oligarchs, Biden endorses Kamala.
Was Joe Biden just "assassinated" by his own party?
As far as I know, no. His campaign was assassinated, maybe. Maybe he was replaced as the presumptive nominee in a metaphorical coup. Thankfully, Joe Biden was not "assassinated" in anything like the usual sense of the word.
To be clear I am not making light of assassination as a political tool and meant it metaphorically here, although assassinations and coups often go together.
Wrong spot
Is Al Frankenstein available? Minn-a-Soda is close
Frank
So, how is different than Trump’s call to march to the Capitol and “fight” against an alleged illegal election?
It's amusing to see the pathetic sheep of the Trump Personality Cult trying to complain about 'cancel culture,' given the GOP's recent history of removing anyone who doesn't swear fealty to Trump's dick.
Kamala knows a lot about random dicks.
This is what us democrats are up against. I had a get-together this evening on my porch. All the brothers were there and I mentioned Biden had left the race. They start whooping and hollering because Trump is their boy now because he is gangster. They don't really know why he is gangster, but, whatever. They start yelling that Trump is now president. I had to disabuse them of that. Explain the process of elections. Then I tell them Kamala might be the front-runner. Man they became so mad. They shouted that no woman can ever give a man orders. They said they would never vote for a woman.
So you hayseeds can see, these negroes are almost as bigoted and backwards as you. I thought I was moving into a black neighborhood, but I just moved in with a bunch of rednecks
Did you tell them that Kamala would probably blow them for their vote?
Press X to doubt.
I can see people being happy that Biden is dropping out. But your "no woman can give a man orders" and not realizing that Trump will actually have to win the election is so overly stereotypical that I don't believe it. Not for one minute.
Living around many self-declared rednecks, I've never heard anything like that in real life. Never once.
I've seen a fair number of HD employees, in their aprons. Most people consider it a point of pride that their apron (the only one they asked for, when they first started) are raggedy, filthy, well worn and worn-out.
This picture looks like the guy didn't do any work at all.