The Volokh Conspiracy
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Everyone Needs To Take A Deep Breath About Trump v. United States
No one asked the Court to reverse Nixon v. Fitzgerald. And the Court found that the civil and criminal contexts cannot be distinguished. The decision should not have been a surprise.
In the aftermath of Trump v. United States, I wrote a series of posts breaking down most facets of the opinion as a doctrinal matter (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8). My general impression is that the decision was not premised on original public meaning, but was a mishmash of precedent, pragmatism, and "traditionalism." Yet the reaction was one of stunned outrage! It is the next Roe v. Wade. We need a constitutional amendment to overrule it. We need to pack the Supreme Court! And so on.
Never forget, most commentary about the Supreme Court is performative. Critics have a vested interest in making the decisions seem so much worse than they really are. There really should not have been much of a surprise here.
First, Nixon v. Fitzgerald has been on the books for decades. That decision established absolute civil immunity for all acts within the "outer perimeter" of the President's duties. No one asked the Court to reconsider Nixon, so that was precedent. During oral argument, Justices Jackson and Sotomayor repeatedly tried to explain why civil immunity made sense, but criminal immunity did not. But the majority disagreed. Critically, the Court found that it would make no sense to provide immunity for civil suits, but not for criminal prosecutions. Indeed, as I noted, the risks from a criminal prosecution of the President are greater than the risk of a civil lawsuit. One the Court declined to distinguish civil and criminal suits, it follows naturally that the absolute immunity recognized in Nixon would apply in the criminal context for Trump. None of this should be surprising.
Second, once the Court recognized that there would be absolute immunity for "core" powers, and presumptive immunity for other actions, the Court had to adopt some test. The Fitzgerald Court's "outer perimeter" test was never particularly helpful. Instead, Chief Justice Roberts borrowed from Blasingame v. Trump, a precedent from the D.C. Circuit. This case involved a civil suit against President Trump for his role on January 6:
For those reasons, the immunity we have recognized extends to the "outer perimeter" of the President's official responsibilities, covering actions so long as they are "not manifestly or palpably beyond [his] authority." Blassingame v. Trump, 87 F. 4th 1, 13 (CADC 2023) (internal quotation marks omitted); see Fitzgerald, 457 U. S., at 755–756 (noting that we have "refused to draw functional lines finer than history and reason would support").
Given Fitzgerald, and how the lower courts have applied Fitzgerald, the Court was going to have to apply some sort of test to determine immunity. The Court gave some guidance to the lower courts. I don't know how helpful it will be, but the Court here was treading in uncertain territory. Is the framework so unreasonable?
Third, I think most of the critics of the decision still believe that the law can constrain a populist presidential candidate. It can't. Alvin Bragg, Jack Smith, Fani Willis, and so on. None of them have made a dent on Trump. The WSJ summed things up nicely:
None of this is a vindication of Mr. Trump's conduct or an endorsement of paying off a porn star, trying to overturn the 2020 election, or refusing to help a besieged Congress on Jan. 6. But as the past nine years have shown over and over, Mr. Trump's biggest opponents are often his best asset. They convinced themselves he won in 2016 by colluding with Russia, and special counsel Robert Mueller would get to the bottom of it. They impeached him twice. Mr. Trump plowed through it all.
It is a fantasy to believe that any test that Chief Justice Roberts could make up would control this president or any other. The law only goes so far.
Everyone should take a deep breath. The only way to defeat Trump is at the ballot box. That was true in 2016. That was true in 2020. And it will be true in 2024.
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The only way to defeat Trump is at the ballot box.
Lack of recognition that Trump might actually be a criminal.
I'm not sure how this represents any such problem. Suppose that Trump actually was a criminal; Does that imply that he can't win the election? No, it doesn't; The Constitution doesn't prohibit felons from running for or taking office, and Democrats have very carefully NOT charged him with the one crime that wouldn't be true of. And his legal problem don't seem to be seriously impacting his popularity, probably because his supporters think it's all bogus, and his foes already assumed he was a criminal.
None of that changes the fact that, if he is guilty of a (serious) crime, he should go to prison. And the Supreme Court just made that a lot more difficult.
Josh, explicitly, was not talking about "should", but instead counseling people to stop thinking they can keep him out of the White house by some means other than defeating him in the election.
That's good advice. The dream of rendering the election a foregone conclusion by legal actions was always that: Just a dream on the part of people who weren't confident the voters would agree with them.
And, sure, IF Trump is guilty of a genuinely serious crime, he should suffer the appropriate penalty, AFTER getting a fair trial and being convicted. The problem here is, of course, that he hasn't shot anybody on 5th avenue. The charges Democrats are going after him on are all rather petty, or blatant cases of selective prosecution.
No; Josh was pretending that prosecuting him was about "keeping him out of the White House" rather than about punishing a criminal.
Of course it's about keeping him out of the White house. The idea that it isn't is ludicrous, given how long you guys have been groping around for some excuse to go after him, and the way everything was time to come to a crescendo right during the campaign.
No; Josh was pretending that prosecuting him was about “keeping him out of the White House” rather than about punishing a criminal.
FFS. If your TDS renders you any more delusional the real crime will be your family not having you involuntarily committed for psychiatric treatment.
Then they should have gone straight to work prosecuting him rather than waiting 2 1/2 years, before indicting him.
The way I read it they had a strategy, use the Jan. 6th hearings to prep the battlespace, and DOJ sat on its hands for 20 months until Nov 2022, when Garland appointed Jack Smith.
Trump announced he was running in 2024 on November 15, 2022.
Coincidentally Merrick Garland appointed Jack Smith as special counsel on November 18th, 2022. Three days later.
Even Mario Cuomo says the NY case is politically-motivated bullshit:
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/andrew-cuomo-says-alvin-braggs-trump-prosecution-was-politically-motivated/
We covered this already. Cuomo did not, in fact, say that. The author of that piece truncated the quote. Cuomo said that the Attorney General's suit against Trump — that was the civil suit by Letitia James, not the prosecution by Bragg — would not have been brought if Trump wasn't running.
Not really sure that the disgraced ex-governor on the least funny comedy show in history is really a reliable source of analysis, but you should at least base it on what he actually said.
We covered this already. Cuomo did not, in fact, say that. The author of that piece truncated the quote. Cuomo said that the Attorney General’s suit against Trump — that was the civil suit by Letitia James, not the prosecution by Bragg — would not have been brought if Trump wasn’t running.
Uh...what? Here's the exact quote from the article I linked:
Former New York governor Andrew Cuomo said Friday that the “hush-money” case in which former president Donald Trump was convicted only occurred because of Trump’s aspirations to return to the White House.
“If his name was not Donald Trump and if he wasn’t running for president — I’m the former AG of New York — I’m telling you that case never would’ve been brought,” the former governor, who resigned after facing a slew of sexual-harassment allegations, told Bill Maher on Real Time.
So the author is clearly not truncating anything. He quite accurately indicates that Cuomo quote above was regarding the NY AG's case.
Not really sure that the disgraced ex-governor on the least funny comedy show in history is really a reliable source of analysis, but you should at least base it on what he actually said.
So, I did base it on what he actually said (and the linked article accurately reported he said). Note that I didn't refer to either case specifically. Now, the piece's headline is misleading if you don't bother to read past that to the body of the article itself, as it is clearly jumping from Cuomo's observation that 2/3 of New Yorkers think BOTH cases are/were politically motivated to concluding that Cuomo thinks that about both as well (even though he only explicitly said that about one of them). But that doesn't change the fact that he did in fact say that at least one of them was politically motivated (not to mention stupid).
As for his disgraced ex-governor, I find it funny that so many who were avidly supporting Cuomo when he was killing elderly people by moving Covid patients into nursing homes (remember the self-branded "Cuomosexuals"?) turned on him so quickly not for that...but for being boorishly crass in his speech to a few women. Causing the deaths of thousands, totally cool! Being rude to women? You're such a piece of shit! That said, neither have anything to do with his bona fides as a former AG himself, nor does what show he was making his statements.
Cuomo wasn’t very articulate or precise, but if you watch the clip he is definitely including the New York criminal charges.
How could he possibly think that? Convoluted vague federal conspiracies and undefined state crimes unprecedented in history? State “special counsels” meeting with WH counsel? The number 3 DOJ official deciding that a career path as line prosecutor was really the better path? Charging one party with an offense but declining to prosecute the party candidate controlling the process who committed more egregious offenses? Rushing the proceedings through to have trials before Nov? Yeah, nothing political here. Or to paraphrase CNN, mostly non-political proceedings.
Bot's malfunctioning again.
51 lying intel backwashes on standby.
You still can't identify one lie that they told, though.
That would be the Biden campaign orchestrated letter acknowledged to be lies by everyone on the planet, except you of course.
That it had all the hallmarks of Russian disinformation when the FBI already had authenticated it.
The NY post had even had a forensic computer expert authenticate it.
Either they were lying, or totally incompetent to make that assessment.
I realize you are embarrassed that you bought in to their lie Dave, but you should quit trying to defend it.
1) The FBI had never, and still has not, authenticated it. (Hint: the "it" here is not the device in the FBI's possession, but an alleged disk image that the NY Post had in its possession that nobody had seen).
2) Whether the FBI thought it was genuine has no bearing on what other people who were not the FBI thought or knew.
3) The NY Post had done no such thing. They didn't even claim to have done so. (https://nypost.com/2020/10/14/email-reveals-how-hunter-biden-introduced-ukrainian-biz-man-to-dad/)
You still can’t identify one lie that they told, though.
I think even the lying intel backwashes kind of wish you would just stop with this nonsense, you’re embarrassing them. No small feat.
See, now you're lying.
I'm apparently much better at spotting lies than you are.
David Nieporent 6 hours ago
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You still can’t identify one lie that they told, though.
DN - cant name a single statement that was true
Well you should be embarrassed, but probably incapable of it.
You likely still think Biden is "sharp as a tack".
Nieporent’s go-to argument: You are lying. He typically resorts to this when he has nothing of substance to use in rebuttal.
Kind of a sad attempt at goalpost shifting.
I'll help you out. Here's the letter:
https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000175-4393-d7aa-af77-579f9b330000
Point to a single statement in there that's provably false.
Hayden's go-to argument: actually lying.
You likely still think Biden is “sharp as a tack”.
He actually did say...
"He [Biden] obviously does not have dementia."
...just a day or two ago. So, who are you going to believe, him or your lying eyes (and ears)?
Is "dementia" just a word to you like "lawfare" that means "something I don't like"? Because it's an actual thing, and Biden doesn't fit it. He's slowed down. Significantly. And that’s what we saw at the debate.
"The charges Democrats are going after him on are all rather petty, or blatant cases of selective prosecution."
Uh, Brett, selective prosecution does not mean what you seem to think it means. There are no comparators similarly situated to Donald Trump insofar as the offenses he is charged with.
That ship already sailed with Dubya and Obama and maybe even before then.
"guilty of a (serious) crime"
Good news. None of the crimes he's charged with is serious!
All of them are felonies with a possible sentence of four or more years in prison. That sounds pretty serious.
Not all felonies are "serious".
Serious crimes are mala in se, these are just mala prohibita offenses.
Trying to subvert an election, trying to overthrow the government, and stealing classified documents, are mala in se.
Will you be defending Biden when he is finally brought up on charges?
He has repeatedly shown his double standard -
Charges of what?
"trying to overthrow the government"
He wasn't charged with this.
"stealing classified documents, are mala in se."
No it isn't, its just a process crime, the weakest type of mala prohibita. Oh, you didn't declassify properly! Documents were considered presidential property until a 1970s law [because Nixon].
We didn't even have the current classification system until after WW2. mala in se crimes have existed since earliest legal history, not 75 years.
Your Trump hatred is affecting your brain now.
That's right, Trump is not charged with stealing classified documents. He is charged with retaining information. They would charge him with retaining the info in his brain, if they could.
trying to overthrow the government
See my previous observation about your need for psychiatric treatment.
He paid off a porn star, which people declared a benefit to his campaign, and a non-0 dollar value, therefore he should have declared it, and some other verbiage, therefore it is a felony, and therefore it can be used to further power the asinine metaphor he is “corruptly influencing an election”.
He’s legally, officially corrupt! Nevermind nobody uses corrupt in that way. They use it in the waggle-finger way so common to those politicians, as their fortunes skyrocket at multiples of their congressional salaries.
He made a "false" entry in an internal document, that's it. 34 felonies!
Technically, his accountant made the entry.
Along with double counting the same activity twice, creating the check was counted as two falsified records, even though printing one for printing the check and one for listing the check in the ledger even though the software automatically performs the second function when doing the first function
10-12 counts charged against trump were for invoices created by Cohen -
And, of course, Trump did neither. They were done for his benefit, but by accounting people no longer under his control.
And it wasn’t even false. It was a legal expense. It actually would have been a federal campaign law violation to use campaign resources to pay the NDA settlement. Because it was a private expense. Properly accounted for.
Exactly. It was not even a business record. Just a private legal expense.
Well, not even that. To make it a felony, the bookkeeping misdemeanors (most of which he didn’t actually commit, but were committed by underlings, mostly no longer under his control) had to be combined with other crimes, none of which could have been prosecuted on their own (NY election law preempted by federal election law, federal election law enforcement preempted by the feds and never having been prosecuted as a crime, etc). And, of course, we have no idea, even now, what each of the jurors believed Trump had done as an additional crime, or even if some of them had voted to convict based on the crime of Orange Man Bad.
Oh what a tangled web.....
to convert the misdomeanors into felonies, the falsification of business records had to be in furtherance of another crime. The jury instructions are informative on how weak the prosecution was on the commission of the other crimes.
At no place in the jury instructions was the any reference to any specific action that was in fact another crime.
“to convert the misdomeanors [sic] into felonies, the falsification of business records had to be in furtherance of another crime. The jury instructions are informative on how weak the prosecution was on the commission of the other crimes.”
Uh, no. Commission of another crime is not an element of NY Penal Law § 175.10. The actus reus is falsifying business records. The mens rea is intent to defraud which includes an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.
Actual commission or concealment of the object offense is not an element.
“At no place in the jury instructions was the any reference to any specific action that was in fact another crime.”
The object offense described in detail in the jury instructions (pp. 30-34) is a violation of New York Election Law § 17-152, an inchoate offense. https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24699539/people-v-djt-jury-instructions-and-charges-final-5-23-24.pdf
How could Trump have had an intent to commit New York Election Law, when said law was preempted by the federal election laws?
Actually, the NY election law was only one of three alternative additional crimes alleged to have been committed. It was, of course preempted by federal election law, so could not have been committed.
The second possible additional crime was violation of the $2700 federal campaign limit. That one again was impossible, since the payor was Trump’s Revocable Trust, which is an alter ego of Trump, and thus preempted by the 1st Amdt as to self funding. It applies to everyone EXCEPT the candidate himself, which was the case here. Moreover, that law has apparently never been utilized in a criminal trial before directly. Instead, those making excess political contributions are fined. Besides, the NY court couldn’t enforce that law if it wanted to, because such enforcement is limited to the Federal Election Commission.
Finally, the third alternative was a violation of NY state tax laws. The key word in the criminal statute is “material”, which is routinely ignored by such LawFare charges. A $30k or so disbursement by a multi-billionaire is hardly material. Moreover, whether it was a legal expense or a campaign expense likely didn’t affect his tax liability one bit, since neither would be deductible. Thus, again, not “material”.
How could said law be preempted by the federal election laws when a federal judge had previously expressly ruled in this case that it was not?
Aside from the fact that you made up this "alter ego" theory, the payor was actually Michael Cohen, so you're wrong again.
So what? The NY court wasn't trying to enforce that law, and the statute doesn't say anything about "a crime enforceable by a NY court." We could be talking about a violation of French law for all it matters.
You are either the worst lawyer in history or a fucking dishonest troll, or both. That is not what material means.
Sure. You spend multiple articles on the case but why sweat it?
Your extended discussion is just an academic exercise until we no longer have NCIS reruns.
My general impression is that the decision was not premised on original public meaning, but was a mishmash of precedent, pragmatism, and "traditionalism." Yet the reaction was one of stunned outrage!
Yes. Originalists or textualists (not the same thing) should not be outraged. By now, we know what the Roberts Court is.
the majority disagreed.
Okay. People think the majority was wrong. And, the "some test" rule doesn't require THEIR test. Shades of Roe, right?
law can constrain a populist presidential candidate
The ruling is not just the application to "populist presidential" candidates.
The only way to defeat Trump is at the ballot box.
We are a nation of laws. EVERYONE ELSE, down to the vice president, can be prosecuted as a basic matter. ONE PERSON (sorry for the caps, but hey, a bit of original understanding -- they loved selective capitalization) broadly is above the law.
We have no kings here. And, even kings can be restrained. The whole constitutional monarchy business.
You aren't fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled with your partisan theater.
Neither Congressmen nor judges may be prosecuted for their official acts. The Constitution provides the sole means of removal of a president for high crimes or misdemeanors: Congress must impeach and convict the president, which will remove him from office and may ban reelection. Your bias against one man has distorted your understanding. Or, perhaps, your investment in the evils of our current government that President Trump threatens is the source of your vitriol.
Say it with me:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
I'm not seeing the contradiction there. Yes, if a Congressman, Judge, or President commits an ordinary, everyday crime of the sort anybody might commit, that they were impeached does not invoke double jeopardy, they can still be prosecuted after.
Yogis_dad was pointing out that official acts are largely precluded from being crimes, even if they CAN be the basis for an impeachment.
Nice transcription Martin, now what's your point?
He made his point. And did so well.
Sorry, I lost my de-coder ring.
He made his point. And did so well.
Only if his intended audience is illiterate.
Judges and members of Congress do not have criminal immunity, although members of Congress have some immunity from the Speech and Debate Clause. Since Trump is not currently president, impeachment is irrelevant to him; Republicans in the House have failed to produce anything that would convince enough of them to impeach Biden, let alone a single Democrat.
The concern is not that carrying through on the multiple indictments Trump faces would keep him from winning the election, but that the delays and obstacles will prevent the voters from getting reliable information about his criminal acts. Every charge that is dropped because of this Supreme Court ruling will be portrayed as "total exoneration". If holding a trial would actually help Donald Trump, he and his judicial toadies wouldn't be pursuing a strategy of delay. (Blackman is wrong; Trump's conviction as a felon did put a dent in him with independent voters; his cultists of course would not be swayed by Trump shooting someone on 5th Avenue.)
Sure, a judge is not immune from a prosecution alleging that he murdered his wife to continue an adulterous sexual affair with his underage teen lover, or for selling classified info to Al Qaeda.
But with perhaps one exception, he can not be personally liable, either civilly or criminally, for orders and judgments issued from the bench.
Judges can be prosecuted for judgments from the bench, although I expect they would have a good faith defense much like qualified immunity. Judges in the "kids for cash" case were prosecuted federally.
Neither accepting nor soliciting a bribe are official acts.
If every crime is not an official act, then Donald Trump can be prosecuted for everything he has been charged with. It is more difficult for judges to commit crimes solely through orders and judgements than for the executive branch, but I would expect it's not impossible.
You’re really itching to say President Trump can be prosecuted because he was being prosecuted. Too late, the idiot prize for legal circular reasoning was already awarded to the DC circuit.
Just responding to the notion that only unofficial acts can be crimes. The Supreme Court decision is wrong; Joe Biden, with the support of 34 Democratic Senators and a willing black ops team, could commit a lot of crime and not be held accountable.
I would say Biden is already committing a lot of wrongs with his lawfare. But not quite sure what you're trying to say. That a president could employ assassination squads, with the imprimatur of Congress? That would be called a coup. And there ain't any federal prosecutor who would be able to stop that and live to see the 'morrow. In fact, the jack smith variety would likely jump on board the new dictator express. He's halfway there already.
You like the ruling because it enables Trump as dictator, and hides negative information from voters. (Recall that Trump arranged payments to a porn star to keep mildly embarrassing information from the voters.) Biden has stated he would not take advantage of being made king, which is largely true of the first 44 presidents (well, Nixon claimed that when the president does it, it's not illegal); Trump won't even commit to respecting the outcome of the election.
Neither Congressmen nor judges may be prosecuted for their official acts.
Yes, they can be. David N. covered this.
The Constitution provides limited civil immunity for congressional speech and debate. Members of Congress also are protected from arrest while attending a session, except for treason, felony, and breach of peace.
The Constitution provides the sole means of removal of a president for high crimes or misdemeanors
Impeachment doesn't just apply to the president. Also, criminal sanctions after leaving office is the issue here.
Congress must impeach and convict the president, which will remove him from office and may ban reelection.
The Impeachment Clause explicitly says people removed by impeachment (with no limits to "non-official acts") can be prosecuted.
The Supreme Court in Trump v. U.S. rejected the argument that the POTUS can only be prosecuted after leaving office if they are impeached first.
Your bias against one man has distorted your understanding.
My principle applies to everyone. The rule of law applies to all.
Or, perhaps, your investment in the evils of our current government that President Trump threatens is the source of your vitriol.
My passion is based on the principles at stake and the author's risible arguments. At some point, the latter warrants strong pushback to remind people the value of credibility.
"The Impeachment Clause explicitly says people removed by impeachment (with no limits to “non-official acts”) can be prosecuted."
Sure, but since Congress can impeach you for absolutely anything, it being a political decision, (Maybe the courts would take exception if the impeachment charge ran afoul of some explicit constitutional prohibition, like impeaching a President for being Catholic.) impeachment is quite capable of being for things that can't be prosecuted because, trivially, they aren't crimes. In such cases, no, impeachment can't be followed by prosecution.
All you are saying here is that impeachment and criminal prosecution aren't linked. You can have one without the other or both. Impeachment holds the president to a higher standard than criminal law.
Yeah, they're not linked, that's exactly it.
And whether impeachment holds the President to a higher or lower standard than criminal law depends entirely on the politics of it. Impeachment is a political process, not a legal process.
The Constitution specifically lists what can be impeached:
“Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors”
The word “crime” is right there. Treason and bribery are also criminal acts. Misdemeanors generally are illegal acts too.
If the impeachment covers something not statutorily a crime [since we don’t have common law federal crimes in this country, there has to be one to prosecute], they can’t prosecute.
Okay. "Impeachment is political." Yes. Perhaps, you are missing the point of the reference.
The Impeachment Clause says presidents can be prosecuted after removal. Covers things that are clearly crimes.
Under the Roberts Plan, even here, many things are immune & made up rules that make it harder to supply evidence for prosecution.
High Crimes and Misdemeanors being broad enough to drive a truck through.
Okay?
Not sure what the point is.
It turns out that generally speaking the actual impeachment cases involved statutory crimes.
To the extent they did not, it wouldn't be something likely to be open to prosecution. How this changes the bottom line is unclear except to have a lot of smoke.
The Impeachment Clause explicitly says people removed by impeachment (with no limits to “non-official acts”) can be prosecuted.
I continue to be amused by tour (and others') child-like inability to understand that the meaning of that is simply that the impeachment itself does not preclude prosecution for actual crimes for which the impeached individual could otherwise be prosecuted under other legal provisions. It does NOT mean that anything for which someone is impeached automatically becomes such a prosecutable crime.
You are either misunderstanding them or arguing against a strawman here.
I haven't read anyone saying that non-criminal but impeachable offences become criminal after impeachment. The point of quoting this, from my perspective, is to show that the president is liable for crimes and can be prosecuted. There is no language that says the president has immunity for illegal acts committed alongside official acts. Liability means no legal immunity.
Yes, they fucking can. Why do you morons lie like this?
Congressmen can't (for some of their acts) because the constitution expressly says so, something it does not say about presidents, or judges.
Not sure why you think that has anything to do with this discussion, because we are not talking about removing anyone, let alone a president. We are talking about prosecuting a private citizen.
Have you considered anger management counseling?
It’s been a rough couple of weeks. He still hasn’t come to terms with the realities about Biden’s mental decline that were so blindingly obvious to so many for the past few years, and are now so obvious that even most of the news media/propaganda outlets and D party members who were in similar denial and/or ran active cover for him all that time have been forced to acknowledge them.
Even Hollywood is telling Ole Joe to quit.
So give us an example of a judge who has been prosecuted for describing a legal settlement as a legal expense, or any of the other things Trump has been prosecuted for.
David Nieporent 2 hours ago
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"nor judges may be prosecuted for their official acts.
Yes, they fucking can. Why do you morons lie like this?"
Enlighten us on what "official Acts" would be illegal, thus subject to prosecution. Then explain how an illegal act can be an "official act"
Any act taken under the color of an office is an official act. And if it violates the law, well, it's illegal. This isn't very tough. Did you even read the Supreme Court's decision we're discussing? It divides presidential acts into three categories:
1. Unofficial acts.
2. Core official acts.
3. Other official acts.
If illegal acts couldn't be official, then this whole presidential immunity thing would be a non-issue, since everything Trump was charged with would be unofficial by definition.
In the context of judges, a judge sentencing people to prison for personal profit would be an example of an official act that would be illegal.
Hmm? I thought the constitution was the highest law. Another was to look at the ruling is that, under the constitution, congress lacks the power to criminalize the president’s exercise of his official constitutional duties. Separation of powers concerns again. You need a big time out.
Bot's malfunctioning again. Saying stuff that's not only gibberish, but non-responsive to the comment to which it responds.
If I am a bot, at least I’m a bot with a basic understanding of the separation of powers. Not quite sure what kind of bot you are, certainly a bot lacking any legal education and politically something seemingly no more aware than Vox or Slate.
Oh and Dave, it is responsive to your nonsense. I'm refuting your contention that Congress can criminalize official presidential acts. You really are out of your depth here. You should stop. Just some friendly advice.
That is in fact the holding of Trump v. U.S., which I guess was not part of the training set for the Riva bot. As long as they are not "core" acts, the president is at most "presumptively" immune from prosecution for official acts.
So core official acts can't be criminalized? So we agree that Congress cannot criminalize such core presidential conduct. As for presumptive immunity, that would also be beyond the power of Congress unless applying a criminal prohibition to that act would pose no dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch. In sum Congress cannot criminalize such presidential conduct, which is essentially what I was saying.
So Dave, you really aren't the sharpest Jacobin nut in the shed are you? Or do you prefer communist thug? I did advise you to stop. Some Jacobins just won't listen.
Unfortunately for you, it's not what SCOTUS was saying.
Given that you wouldn’t recognize a separation of powers argument if it swam up and bit you on the ass, I think I’ll disregard your views.
that would be an illegal act under the color of an official act, yet not an official act. An illegal act can never be an official act. They are mutually exclusive.
Again, completely wrong. You've utterly misunderstood the issues. Many official acts are illegal.
Dave, you don’t even understand the basic separation of powers concerns underlying this ruling yet continue to pontificate. Maybe you should take the present article’s advice, take a deep breath, and just stop writing your bullshit?
He obviously doesn’t.
Nobody is above the law is a subset of everyone is equal before the law, which includes not siccing the government's power of investigation and prosecution against a political enemy over and over and over again, because he is a political enemy.
Protestations it is merely disinterested concern for rule of law fall flat, for reasons I've discussed many times.
* The sheer number of initiatives belies anything other than an unhealthy fixation, like a creeper on the Internet.
* When the Constitution allows going after a political opponent-as-opponent, as with impeachment, folks around here gleefully pointed that out.
* Concerns he tries to delay trials until after the election. At worst, this is a minor infraction of delay of the trial itself. Those who maintain it is disinterested concern for rule of law have next to 0 concern about this, as if law violation is the issue, it doesn't matter when. It only matters if the purpose is to hurt a political opponent before an election. Hence the hyperbole of it.
There was even a pseudo-intellectual professor who tried to buttress the delay as a major problem by conjuring into existence the value to The People of seeing timely prosecutions. Skip for the moment that is a conservative value. But more likely than not this professor could quote bible and verse about why rushing things in death penalty cases was a bad idea (which I agree with.)
Then there's facetious lying Congress needs his papers, as in 4th Amendment protection from without a warrant, to study law in its application for potential changes, but actually for the purpose of leaking them to embarrass him, which was done.
If prosecutions of Trump were merely disinterested applications of law, then the timing of the trials would be irrelevant. Yet folks scream bloody murder at the thought of a trial starting after election day.
Funny how that works.
Exactly. Both of the federal cases, and the FL case in particular, would likely not have begun until 2025, at the earliest, if the prosecutors hadn’t been trying to fast track the cases so much. They wanted both cases started in March, right around Super Tuesday. The fast tracking in the FL case was so egregious because they were simultaneously slow walking security clearances for Trump’s attorneys, preventing them from seeing much of the evidence. Moreover, the prosecution tried to assume away several key Constitutional arguments (ownership of the disputed documents, whether Trump could and did declassify them, Presidential immunity), and even that Smith had the prosecutorial power that he utilized to prosecute Trump. You could see that in action, when the judge essentially rejected their theory of document ownership in her proposed jury instructions, where Smith and Bratt were incandescent with rage, with her failing to include their theory. Even putting those issues aside, a trial like this likely wouldn’t have started before 2025 at the earliest, under normal circumstances.
If Trump gets back into power, there is a concern he'll use his new imperial immunity to kill all charges against himself. Having the trials beforehand reduces his options to a self-pardon.
All the more reason he should have been charged in 2021, at least for the DC and Georgia case.
What was the holdup?
Super Tuesday, March 2024.
If Trump gets back into power, there is a concern he’ll use his new imperial immunity to kill all charges against himself
I understand that some have that concern.
But what if the trial starts on Wednesday, November 6th? That offers plenty of time (nearly 11 weeks) to conduct a trial.
Why not start the day after the election is held?
Having the trials beforehand reduces his options to a self-pardon.
If Trump gets convicted for any of the Federal counts then nothing that anyone can do can prevent a self-pardon for any guilty verdict.
If self-pardon is constitutional. There is some question about that.
Not with this Supreme Court!
So, the Biden Administration arbitrarily indicts Biden’s principal political opponent just in time for the election between the two, and you are concerned that Trump might have his DOJ dismiss the cases? Sounds a bit one sided to me.
And, no, the two cases against Trump did not spontaneously arise. Evidence in the FL case show that it, at least, was hatched in consultation between the Biden WH and AG Garland, back in 2021. It was then made possible by several Biden WH orders, including one that required NARA to fully cooperate with the FBI, turning NARA into a cat’s paw for the DOJ. Moreover, the Biden Administration kept the prosecutions political by appointing Smith as Special Counsel, since he reports directly to AG Garland and legally lacks any independence as a result. To the extent that his appointment was legal, his prosecutions are effectively as if performed by AG Garland, the 4th ranked Cabinet member, himself.
So, again, what is wrong with Trump, if elected, immediately having his AG dismiss the charges effectively brought by Biden’s AG against Biden’s primary political opponent, Trump?
Because the charges are well-founded and Trump is guilty.
Man who has never been calm since he started posting at the Conspiracy wants everyone to calm down.
Personally, I go with Baude's view that the decision is badly reasoned, but functionally does not matter much outside the scope of a second Trump term.
But in that case, giving him immunity is giving him impunity, and that has some pretty big implications for Trump and his endless dwelling on petty revenge.
functionally does not matter much outside the scope of a second Trump term.
I like your optimism about the post-Trump era.
Historically, populist movements need a person to fasten onto or they are short lived.
More talk, revealing it’s about getting a political enemy, and not disinerested concern for rule of law.
Hey did you manage to read the comment I was replying to? It provides valuable context for what I was saying!
Thanks for saying I have no concern for rule of law based on my thinking Trump is bad. Fuck you.
I’m actually more concerned about the long-term effects of this ruling than the short term ones. A century from now, Trump will be mostly forgotten, but this ruling will likely be binding precedent. Trump’s primary virtues are that he is lazy and not very competent. We may not be so lucky with our next criminal President.
That’s fair - it creates an obvious exploit should someone awful get in there even a century from now.
As always, it’s fuck your feelings, his are sacred.
"Man who has never been calm since he started posting at the Conspiracy wants everyone to calm down."
Maybe you should stop living in a fantasy world? Josh is usually calm.
Hahahaha
Oh wait you’re serious, let me laugh even harder.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Behold the face of perpetual rage.
If you want to say he dresses badly, (Though not remotely as badly as that powder blue Western leisure suit I wore interviewing for Johns Hopkins!) and needs a better haircut, I would not argue. But he's usually pretty calm.
Lol someone skipped the hysterical blogposts about so many things over so many years. Which is understandable.
"hysterical blogposts "
You are the very last person here to criticize anyone for hysterical blogposts. Its your entire history.
Game recognize game. But the difference is: I’m upset about bad things and he’s upset about good things.
Back when I was in Houston he was the go-to guy (they never seemed to invite any other scholars) for legal analysis on the morning AM shitshows. He did seem pleasant when he spoke
Put it out there that people are above the law (functionally or otherwise), and it's going to be hard to cabin the overall principle.
Someone in the future will be protected, even if they aren't as bad as Trump.
"Someone in the future will be protected"
Yes, the entire point of the SCOTUS decision. We are not just making "Trump law" as the left desires, we are protecting Joe Biden and all future presidents.
Assuming there are any and assuming that, if the office keeps that name, that it isn't a single-party system that takes advantage of it.
My comment was in response to Sarcasto who argued that the case only will effectively matter with respect to Trump. I'm glad we have a limited form of agreement that it will cover more ground.
To keep my sanity I'm forced to look at all this a little more philosophically. Trump will never be held to account by justice. His court and his congress and his Blackmans will see to that. But we have well over 1000 people through 10 years sent to prison on his behalf. And the true architects and executioners of his frauds - the lawyers (and congressmen) - are well on their way to prison in state courts. And that needs to be enough for me at this time. Trump was never bright enough to engineer any of this. When left to his own devices, he comes up with telling his gardeners to hide boxes in bathrooms and erase tapes.
Anthony Fauci will never be held to account by justice, until he stands before the Eternal Judge and learns his well-deserved fate. At that time, I would rather be Trump than Fauci.
I'd rather not be either of them, personally.
Living in the mindset of someone who thinks that trying to figure out how to deal with infectious diseases is worthy of eternal damnation must be wild.
You could deal with infectious diseases by shooting everybody you suspect of being a carrier; Would that it was to deal with disease immunize you against God's wrath?
Fauci doesn't even get a legal pass on crimes committed, just because he had some purported medical motive for committing them. Why would you expect him to get a theological pass?
Sorry, I don't speak wingnut. What are these "crimes"?
Well, for one, the gain of function research he illegally arranged to be funded.
Can someone please tell me how to summon the damn rolling eye emoji?!!
Sorry, I can tell you how, but Reason's settings will block your post if you try, so it won't do you any good.
Oh, the myths that were debunked years ago! I'd forgotten all about those, but it's adorable that you're still hanging on.
Oh, the myths that were debunked years ago! I’d forgotten all about those, but it’s adorable that you’re still hanging on.
That you eagerly and blindly swallowed Fauci's and other's bullshit whole and then just stopped paying attention doesn't mean that it's a myth, let alone that it was debunked.
https://www.bbc.com/news/57932699
Illegally? Seems overdetermined.
The organization that Fauci led funded research at a Chinese laboratory that also conducted biological weapons research. If nothing else that has the appearance of wrong doing. To the extent that work at Wuhan led to the Development of SARS-CoV-2, Fauci has some complicity in the deaths of millions. Moreover, to the degree in which his agency failed to retract early incorrect guessed about the nature of SARS-CoV-2 in a timely manner, he also shares some blame.
Read the disbarment of EcoHealth letter again. The failures were not NIH's, and were by all evidence negligent failure to report not intentional.
'the appearance of wrong doing' is a great way for you to smuggle in some subjectivity.
To the extent that work at Wuhan led to the Development of SARS-CoV-2, Fauci has some complicity in the deaths of millions
Big if.
retract early incorrect guesses
I cannot believe someone involved in scientific research in any capacity typed this.
...and of course; no masks necessary to two masks, made up social distancing and two weeks to "slow the spread" to months long shutdowns.
And let's not forget Dr. Scarfs.
Mr. Bumble seems to think stuff that annoys him Illegal. And that said policies were all directed by Fauci.
S_0,
The early guess were incorrect. Just to pick one, the renial of immunity from prior infection. That was wrong; The science proves it was wrong. Your BS response shows that you have forgotten whatever scientific education you once received.
As for your other rebuttals, what I wrote is shared by at least half of the US Intelligence Community. Your bureaucratic defence of your masters is pitiful. Simply pitiful.
You don't retract a paper for it later being shown to be incorrect! That is baseline scientific integrity!!
Again it must be wild being in your brain.
If the eternal judge is against people trying to deal with disease (that the eternal judge created in the first place), but pro-Trump, I’d say the eternal judge is a depraved-moron.
Possibly the eternal judge doesn't think that the end justifies the means.
So the eternal judge wants a lot of his creations to suffer at the hands of his other creations i.e. a depraved moron.
You do notice, I hope, that you're building Fauci's innocence and good intent right into everything you write, instead of arriving at it as a conclusion. You just assume that everything Fauci did was on the up and up and for the best.
Maybe you're wrong about that?
I’m assuming two things:
Trying to deal with disease is good and I’m not an expert so my questioning of his methods would be ill-informed and certainly not enough for me to think someone deserves cosmic punishment.
An eternal judge is typically just a reflection of the person who imagines them. In this case, a depraved moron.
Trying to deal with disease is a good end. Evil means can be used to good ends, and that doesn't render them not evil. Is this complicated?
It is. But you have a simplistic and child-like worldview combined with an extreme level of arrogance that makes it so you can believe it’s simple. You asserting that Fauci is EVIL, and God would agree with ME doesn’t make it so.
No, that's absolutely true, my opinion doesn't make them evil, the causality actually runs in the other direction.
But it remains that I wouldn't want to be either of them.
my opinion doesn’t make them evil, the causality actually runs in the other direction.
Brett isn't God, he's just speaking *for* God.
Worse though, Fauci knew from the beginning that there was no evidence behind most of what he was pushing, and what he was inhibiting. He very likely knew within days that the virus was created in a Chinese lab in Wuhan, given the evidence available to him at the time, and that he had helped fund it. Yet, he was instrumental in orchestrating the campaign against it, coercing numerous experts to agree with him publicly, and not their lying eyes. And why did he do that? Likely to cover up that he had (arguably illegally) helped fund it.
2020 truther seems committed that no one will out conspiracy him.
"eternal judge created in the first place"
HaShem did not create it, the ChiComs did.
Totally on topic, Yogis. Anyway, Trump is immune to the law it seems. Fauci not. So shoot your best shot at Fauci instead of moaning about it from your cabin. Wearing that mask on that airplane still has your ass chapped after all these years, yeah?
Trump is NOT "immune to the law". He has legal immunity under some circumstances, and political immunity so long as the charges are not such that his supporters would take them seriously.
If you'd charged him with insurrection, a felony, several years ago, and managed to prove it in court, all this would be irrelevant. But you had nothing of substance on him, and so the charges you do bring don't have substantial political effect.
I mean, what have you got? A dispute over a property valuation on a loan he already paid off in full? His accountant labeling an entirely legal payment to his lawyer as legal expenses? His taking home classified documents like everybody else in DC does?
Pretty petty stuff for super ultra Hitler, if you ask me.
"His taking home classified documents like everybody else in DC does?"
You're a fucking relic of stupidity and dishonesty, Brett. You've been told dozens of times what he's actually been charged with in SDFL, and yet you continue to bury your head in your asshole and come here with bald-faced lies.
No wonder you support Trump. You're just as worthless and ethically challenged as he is.
Too bad there isn’t a Presidential Records Act that would specifically apply to this circumstance.
The case is built on a number of innovative theories, most wrong. First, and foremost, is that PARA controlled the determination of what documents were Presidential records, and which were personal papers. Also that Trump couldn’t declassify them when he was President, that bureaucrats, reporting to his political opponent, could determine whether they were still National Defense information, or should still be classified, etc.
Why do you come here and shame your family with your lies?
1) NARA has nothing to do with the charged crimes.
2) Trump has not made the legal argument that he declassified anything, or that he ordered it done and was stymied by your imaginary bureaucrats.
So shut the fuck up.
NARA is critical to the entire prosecution. They (very likely under orders from the FBI) requested all the documents Trump had that were marked as classified. When Trump failed to comply quickly enough, they (probably illegally) issued a criminal referral to the DOJ, justifying the DOJ’s subpoena, and Trump’s failure to respond to that quickly enough was the justification for the MAL raid. Their claim of ownership of documents in the possession of Trump is key to the case.
The other aspect, besides ownership of the documents, Is whether they contain National Defense information. Who gets to determine that question? The President at the time they were ordered shipped? Or said unnamed bureaucrats?
This issue hasn’t been addressed yet, because the case isn’t to that point yet. In the indictment, Bratt just asserted that Trump had a number of documents containing National Defense information. It doesn’t appear that the case is to that point yet, and has been frozen for several months. When the prosecutors get to that point, then Trump’s attorneys can challenge them on those grounds. This is part of the reason that several experts in litigating this sort of case have suggested that 2025, or maybe even 2026, was a more realistic trial date, instead of the prosecution’s hoped for Super Tuesday trial date.
It's irrelevant to the case. Have you read the indictment?
See what I mean about how your go-to is lying? Nothing in this case has anything to do with "quickly enough."
There is no such thing as a criminal referral, let alone an "illegal" one. "Criminal referral" is a rhetorical term, not a legal one.
More Hayden lies. Trump did not fail to respond to it quickly enough. He responded on time. He just didn't do so accurately or honestly.
Utterly wrong. Trump could've been charged with possession of stolen property, but he wasn't. None of the actual charges against him turn on ownership.
The jury, you incompetent moron.
Yeah, Brett, you gotta get new talking points after a jury found it wasn't just a dispute.
No, I in fact do not, or else that would have decided the election.
If we're going to consider it impossible for a black man to get a relevantly fair trial with an all white jury, when race and attitudes are only moderately correlated, then you have to confront the reality of all Democrat juries in politically fraught cases.
You're never going to get these cases taken seriously by Republicans so long as they're always tried in locations where the jury pool is overwhelmingly Democratic. A problem Democratic politicians don't have to worry about, because so little of the country is overwhelmingly Republican.
Now, it would be a different matter if we were talking a simple crime with objective evidence, like the proverbial shooting on 5th avenue. But when the crime requires accepting novel legal theories and dubious assumptions, the fact of a biased jury pool is not going to be ignored.
If we’re going to consider it impossible for a black man to get a relevantly fair trial with an all white jury,
Not what Batson says. And if you want to revisit it, that's fine.
Listen Brett, you may not be able to understand the concept of Dems with good faith, but that doesn't mean you get to pretend the crimes he's convicted of haven't happened.
I get to pretend or not pretend anything I want, it's a free country. The convictions happened, doesn't mean the crimes did.
For legal purposes, and exclusively for legal purposes, the crimes he gets convicted of "happened", but this doesn't require anybody to take the convictions seriously if they have reason to doubt that he got a fair trial. And there's abundant reason to doubt that he's getting fair trials, starting with the fact that it's all been going on exclusively in jurisdictions where a 100% Democratic jury can be arranged.
Once again, an utter inability to think that anyone who disagrees with you could be acting in good faith.
"And there’s abundant reason to doubt that he’s getting fair trials, starting with the fact that it’s all been going on exclusively in jurisdictions where a 100% Democratic jury can be arranged."
One more thing Brett doesn't understand but acts like he does:
Voir dire.
In order for your genetic predisposition to stupidity and conspiracies to even begin to have any possible validity, you'd have to demonstrate that the jury was in fact all 100% Democrats, and that they voted based purely on partisan retardation like you obviously would, rather than basing their votes on the facts.
Why do I say you'd obviously be that retarded? Because you think everyone else is. The only reason to think that, is if you aren't an exception to your own delusions.
What’s your point about voir dire? They can’t ask who the potential juror voted for in 2020. They can guess, based on party membership and 90% (DC) vote for Biden that year. But with that imbalance, it is impossible to eliminate Biden voters from the jury for cause. That leaves peremptory challenges, that in DC or NYC, would be very quickly exhausted, leaving a jury heavily biased against Trump.
It is impossible to eliminate Biden voters from the jury for cause because that's not cause. Trump is not entitled to be tried before people wearing MAGA hats or people who didn't vote. Instead, Trump is entitled to unbiased jurors. A competent attorney can use voir dire to suss out biased jurors. (Obviously, Trump's lawyers rarely are competent, but there's no evidence they failed in voir dire in this case wrt that issue.)
"MANHATTAN (CN) — After a mixed jury of a dozen New Yorkers unanimously delivered guilty verdicts on all 34 felony counts against Donald Trump on Thursday afternoon, legal experts told Courthouse News that two lawyers on the panel may have helped other jurors see through the noise in the case and focus on the “actual law” behind the charges of falsifying business records as part of a scheme to illegally influence the 2016 election.
Former federal prosecutor Neama Rahmani told Courthouse News he thought it was a mistake for Trump’s lawyers to not strike the two lawyers from the trial jury.
“That never ever happens,” he said. “You rarely have one, much less two.”
Rahmani said lawyer-jurors can be “so powerful in the deliberation room” because they’re able to set aside the irrelevant spectacle surrounding a case and instead “focus on the jury instructions and the actual law in the case.”
“When you have lawyers on the panel, they tend to sway the deliberations, so you have to make sure that they’re on your side,” he said, noting that as a trial litigator he nearly always uses peremptory strikes to remove lawyers from the potential jury pool.
“Lawyer-jurors are very, very risky unless they’re on your side,” Rahmani added. “Jurors like that are high-risk, and certainly not helpful.”
Juror No. 3 was identified as a corporate lawyer originally from Oregon.
The other lawyer on the panel was Juror No. 7, a middle-aged civil litigator who is originally from North Carolina."
https://www.courthousenews.com/pair-of-lawyers-on-jury-of-12-everyday-new-yorkers-helped-convict-trump-experts/
His taking home classified documents like everybody else in DC does?
That you continue to push this line despite having had the actual facts explained to you dozens of times is absolute proof that your defenses of Trump should be considered complete garbage. You will make up some lie or distortion or something to prove he did nothing wrong.
Are you not embarrassed to repeat your lies so many times?
Anyway, Trump is immune to the law it seems.
That would be the simple-minded child's take on the issue.
If you believed that, you wouldn't believe that. Which is to say, if you believed in God you wouldn't pretend to judge another person's soul. Such an act of pride and defiance would leave you trembling in fear of eternally separation from the light.
But you're just an asshole who knows there's nothing beyond the grave but find it rhetorically useful to invoke religion. It doesn't work, because nobody else believes it any more either. And it really highlights what a bad person you are.
This is just bizarre logic. You can believe in Satan and not agree with Satanists. So you can believe in God and not agree with how it's followers portray it.
He truly is one of the luckiest people who has ever lived, huh?
A bit like Forrest Gump
Dubya and Obama were never gonna be prosecuted for war crimes REGARDLESS of what the Supreme Court said.
I mean, why should you care if Trump whined about a stolen election or kept some dusty old papers or even committed perjury or forgery?
It's like having a hissy fit over the "misogyny" of Alec Baldwin yelling at his daughter while giving Brian Mitchell, Scott Petersen, and Richard Spock medals of freedom!
More talk, revealing it’s about getting a political enemy, and not disinerested concern for rule of law.
The Wall Street Journal errs in asserting in contravention of plain evidence that President Trump “refused to help a besieged Congress.” That such a lie persists is evidence of prejudice, if not dementia. No public figure has been attacked more with less merit than Donald Trump – and not because he has done something wrong. Trump represents an affront to the overweening leviathan state, and such an affront imperils the rice bowls of millions of collaborators who suck at the public teat to the detriment of our republic. The lawfare waged against his supporters is meant to deter anyone from ever daring to oppose the Apparatus again. With God’s help, we will reelect Mr. Trump and overturn the corrupt regime that saps freedom from our land, debauches our currency, and ships our jobs to slave lands abroad.
You forgot the part where you point to this supposed “evidence.”
Chairman Loudermilk Publishes Never-Before Released Anthony Ornato Transcribed Interview
The Jan. 6th committee was pretty determined to bury any evidence that made Trump look better, weren't they?
They were rightly skeptical of Anthony Ornato's testimony, in which he did not recall a bunch of stuff that multiple witnesses testified to, and contradicted other witnesses with things like "the Trump White House pushed for immediate help from Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller and grew frustrated at the slow deployment of that help". Trump being blocked by his Acting Secretary of Defense?
I'm not saying you have to be persuaded by the evidence, just not deny that there IS evidence.
"Trump being blocked by his Acting Secretary of Defense?"
You're right, that's as implausible as the State Department lying to him about troop numbers. Everybody in the chain of command was instantly responsive to his orders, after all.
Numerous witnesses testified to Trump's indifference to the attack on the Capitol, and even approval about the possible hanging of Mike Pence. That Trump couldn't manage his own appointees would be plain evidence that he was not qualified to be president, but it's really just an excuse for his failure to try.
When Kevin McCarthy (among numerous others) contacted Trump begging for him to provide assistance, Trump brushed him off, saying, "Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are."
And what was Trump supposed to have done? He had already offered National Guard troops, and that offer had been rejected by both DC Mayor Bowser and Speaker Pelosi. They were the ones in charge of protecting the Capital that day, and they were the ones who had refused Trump’s offer of assistance. What else could they have done? Sent in a bunch of FBI agents? They were already busy monitoring the crowds and instigating the violence.
Poor Mitch McConnell, erased from responsibility again. Except neither he nor Pelosi was responsible for defending the Capitol, nor would the mayor of DC be in charge of defending federal buildings. Such a weak president, needing permission from Bowser and Pelosi to act.
Trump could have sent the National Guard when his family and advisors pleaded with him to take action; instead Mike Pence ordered that deployment. He could have told his supporters to leave the Capitol; he only did that after it was clear that they would not be able to achieve what he wanted (like hanging Mike Pence).
(1) Neither the DC Mayor nor Nancy Pelosi are in the chain of command for the DC National Guard, so they had no power to "reject" any such offer, if it had been made, which it had not.
(2) Whether he had "offered National Guard troops" in the days before J6 has absolutely zero relationship to what he was supposed to do on J6, after the attack on the Capitol had begun.
They were not. (Indeed, assuming you meant Capitol rather than Capital, the DC Mayor does not play any role in security for that building.)
See above. (1) They did not, and (2) could not have, and (3) also irrelevant.
They could have sent in the DC National Guard. Or FBI agents. Or ATF agents. Or Park Police. Or census takers from the census bureau. You know, anything other than mocking the people asking for help and refusing to act.
Oh, you forgot to mention you were mentally ill.
No public figure has been attacked more with less merit than Donald Trump
Trump tweet
LOL!
So you think Mike Pence deserved to be hanged?
Why would you ask that?
Because many Trump supporters chanted that on January 6th, and Trump expressed support for that hanging?
Because Trump said so.
You are be-clowning yourself.
Starting with the guy who has written 10 blog posts about it in the past week.
Blackman reminds me a lot of Kavanaugh when he writes his concurrences. After slipping the knife into the jugular, Kavanaugh goes to great pains on how innocent it all is and how everything will be fine, and how the knife really isn't a knife...even though it is a knife.
Which is funny because Blackman criticizes Kavanaugh for that ALL the time!
Could someone with a higher tolerance and more time to sift through Josh’s logorrhea please let me know whether he’s written anything worth reading on the Supreme Court decisions over the past two weeks? There’s just too much, given the typical “juice for the squeeze” one gets from a typical Josh post.
He wrote a weird thing about Kagan lacquering Barrett? That’s worth reading if you’re interested in writing that is terrible/weird as shit.
But if Trump is elected president again then it will be literally like The Handmaid's Tale.
You know, just like the last time he was president.
The last time Trump was president he shifted the ideological balance on the supreme court to the point that they took away the right to abortion. So I'm not sure if that analogy to the Handmaid's Tale is as funny as you apparently think it is.
Re-writing history one post at a time.
Roe overturned. Bounties on pregnant women fleeing. Approaching eugenics in Alabama. Where's the revision?
What bounties?
I expect it would be Texas SB8 and similar, although the bounty is on those who help a woman to get an abortion rather than the woman herself.
https://apnews.com/article/abortion-texas-idaho-alabama-state-lines-trafficking-d314933f3f7db93858561a0c6ad0b188
You realize that those who support "a right to abortion" are the ones who support eugenics? Planned Parenthood explicitly embraces eugenics. That is why most of their abortions are provided to minorities and low income people. Margaret Sanger supported abortion so as to keep the "lower orders" from having kids.
Planned Parenthood supports voluntary family planning.
Margaret Sanger, a product of her time, to some degree, voiced comments about the value of voluntary eugenics.
https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/08/14/432080520/fact-check-was-planned-parenthood-started-to-control-the-black-population
Buck v. Bell which upheld coercive eugenics was 8-1, supported by the conservatives and progressives on the Supreme Court (minus 1). Griswold and Roe overturn the basic principle involved there.
Planned Parenthood helps supply health care for those who are less able to get it from more expensive sources. Logically, it would be often more likely to serve low-income individuals.
The right to birth control and abortion, however, should apply to everyone. And, that is what Planned Parenthood supports.
The thing is, because the American right is chasing after a mythical past, they’ll never actually be satisfied. We’ve got US Senators opposing no-fault divorce now. Let’s say one or two states implement that. Inevitably it won’t return them to some idyllic traditional society. In fact it’ll likely do the opposite: less people getting married more kids out of wedlock, more separations without divorce, more adultery, more domestic abuse and murder. So they’ll just move onto some other idea that restrict’s women’s freedom to get to where they want to go.
A complete myth. Women already have far more freedom than men:
Look at the incarceration rate (freedom from prison).
The mortality rate (freedom from the grave.)
No requirement for Selective Service registration.
Restrictions on men's reproductive freedom.
When the mortality and incarceration rates are equalized; and women are prosecuted for exercising their reproductive freedom at the same rate as men ... then we will talk.
These are great points!
Yeah, if you’re a sexist asshole.
These obsolete, antisocial, right-wing bigots are the Volokh Conspiracy's target audience, greatest fans, and most ardent defenders . . . and an important reason the Volokh Conspirators are disliked and disrespected among mainstream law faculty and administrators throughout the United States.
“women are prosecuted for exercising their reproductive freedom at the same rate as men.”
Uhhhhhhh what?
It's all basically the Southern Strategy writ anew: Dismantle the federal government so the states can slowly get back to their preferred social order: The diminution of women, niggers, agnostics and fags. And I must admit, they're pulling it off.
Oh, it's funny in the way I think it is.
That is, the histrionics demonstrated by the left on how Democracy is under attack never fails to produce a laugh.
If I'm not mistaken, I'm sure there's still room for you and all the other drama queens in The Resistance.
Hmm. So you agree with the critics of qualified immunity who argue that it should be abolished since it provides immunity from criminal proseuctions?
Because, as stated, if immunity exists for the lesser (civil suits), then it must necessarily provide immunity for the greater (criminal prosecution.)
It does? Says who?
It is pure common sense.
Why immunize someone from a damages suit for a type of conduct, while NOT immunising from criminal prosecution for that EXACT sane conduct?
I wouldn't do either, but it's not hard to understand: Any rando can initiate a lawsuit, only prosecutors can prosecute, so if you don't want proceedings without very good cause, it's more important to immunize against lawsuits.
Blackman. To quote,
"Critically, the Court found that it would make no sense to provide immunity for civil suits, but not for criminal prosecutions."
Or to work it backwards, since there is no immunity from criminal prosecutions provided by qualified immunity, there should be no immunity from civil suit.
So the supposedly "common sense" extension of Fitzgerald is directly contradicted by one of the most high profile legal doctrines of the current Court.
The four dissenting justices in Nixon v. Fitzgerald would have denied absolute immunity to a former president from civil suits for damages. Chief Justice Burger, who was essential to the five justice majority, opined in his concurrence that the immunity recognized therein is limited to civil damages claims. 457 U.S. 731, 759 (1982). The majority opinion there expressly recognized that there is a lesser public interest in actions for civil damages than in criminal prosecutions. Id., at 754 n.37.
No member of SCOTUS in Nixon v. Fitzgerald contemplated that a former president enjoys immunity from criminal prosecution. Last week's decision is result oriented partisan hackery on par with Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (2000), and Shelby County v. Holder, 570 U.S. 529 (2013).
Shorter Blackman: It's only one step toward authoritarianism, there've been others. So don't worry about it. Also, the Originalist justices abandoned Originalism when it didn't give the desired answer. It's hardly the first time. So don't worry about it. And no decision by the Court would have immediately removed Trump anyway. So don't worry about it.
All coincidences.
Since we have all taken a deep breath, let’s change the subject.
Thesis: the 25th Amendment does not work. We need something else. Darn if I know what.
I was reading up about Woodrow Wilson’s stroke. WW was the inspiration for the 25th Amendment. From Wikipedia:
Any of that sound familiar? The current Biden situation is a textbook example of what the 25th Amendment was meant for. And it has failed miserably. It needs to be replaced. Darn if I know with what.
BL,
My impression is that the 25th Amendment gives cover for the VP acting as POTUS while s/he is anesthetized. Other than that a President who doesn't want to be removed has an excellent chance of getting a 1/3 vote in at least one house to prevent his usurpers from taking over. So it is hardly remedy for replacing Mr Biden.
Agreed, as I said, the 25th does not work. Biden is clearly not capable of carrying out the duties of office, but he remains stuck there.
You can read the details of the mechanism here at Section 4: https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/amendments/amendment-xxv
Note that Section 4 provides that you need a majority of the cabinet “or of such other body as Congress may by law provide.” AFAIK, no such body has been created. Maybe that should be considered.
Maybe a panel of experts.
Clearly!
Dead-ender!
Your comment is anything but clear. Care to elaborate? Or is this just your usual snark.
The meaning is pretty obvious to everyone except you:
"Biden is clearly not capable of carrying out the duties of office, but he remains stuck there."
You people like to try and let that word do a lot of evidentiary work that you can't (or simply won't) otherwise do yourself.
We were having a trial? I must not have noticed. My bad, those usually start with a judge and jury.
If you need evidence, you have not been paying attention for the last month. The WHITE HOUSE defended Biden by saying he is sharp from 10 am to 4 pm. Maybe that qualifies him to be president -- of the book club at the local nursing home. Of the US, not so much.
Keep living in your delusions. The adults around here are trying to have a serious conversation.
You seem to misunderstand which part of the Venn diagram you land in.
The adults are telling you that you can't just waive your hand and pretend the word "clearly" is a valid substitute for evidence and persuasion.
An adult would understand this, you do not. Ergo, you are not the adult you claim to be.
The more you comment the more I'm inclined to believe you are one of SarcastrO's alternate personalities.
Has Nigebot been retired?
Oh, I like this conspiracy theory. Nige is a sock puppet of mine, and so is Jason Cavanaugh?
Delicious.
DANGER SARCASTO, DANGER SARCASTRO. CONSPIRACY THEORY, CONSPIRACY THEORY.
Not a “conspiracy theory” you douche, just an observation.
Of course it is his usual snark. He is quick to criticize and exceedingly slow to offer possible solutions.
Clarly? Can't you read. If POTUS rebuts it still take a 2/3 vote in both house to remove her/him.
The benefit of making it the cabinet is that it ensures that this will never be a partisan affair; it's the people handpicked by the president as his most senior people. If you can convince them that the president can no longer serve, you can convince anyone.
That... doesn't mean it won't be a partisan affair. It just guarantees the polarity of the partisan impulse: To protect the President, rather than harm him.
It DOES have the advantage of putting the decision in the hands of people who encounter him every day, and thus should have a sound opinion about his condition, though.
The ones trying to remove Biden as incompetent are primarily Democrats. Their motivation appears to be primarily the fact that Biden has fallen behind 2-6 points in the popular vote polls.
Not partisan, but also unrealistic. It’s based on a false assumption - that the Cabinet is independent. As was recently reinforced by the Supreme Court, the power of the President to dismiss his top officials, for any reason whatsoever, is supreme. Congress can’t prevent it, even if they tried. That means that if a majority of his Cabinet declares the President as incapacitated, he can turn around, declare himself capable, and immediately fire the Cabinet members who voted for his incapacity.
It is not in fact based on that assumption at all. It is based on the exact opposite assumption.
It does not in fact mean that, because if the Cabinet voted as such, "the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President." (Emphasis added.)
Yes, Biden is incompetent, but so is the VP. The only practical remedy is to elect Trump, and for him to win by enough votes that the election cannot be stolen.
Harris is less competent now than Biden likely will be in two years.
Given the choice, I'd stick with Biden.
Lol. You can't make this shit up.
But even if another body is created, POTUS can rebut in writing and it takes a 2/3 vote in each house to remove him/her.
Does he now?
It would only take 1/3 of the Democrats voting with the Republicans to remove Joe now.
The way things are going I'd say 1/3 of democrats would be gettable. The question might be do the Republicans want to bail the Democrats out of this mess. And can you get enough cabinet officials to go along.
Republican would be wise to vote "present" and not involve themselves as accomplices in the Big Lie promulgated by the White House and "elite" Democrats and their media lackeys.
I was going to say that it wasn't intended to deal with Presidents who were still capable of disputing their incapacity, but you have persuaded me: It was, but is badly designed for that purpose.
Now, ambition might counter loyalty, making the prospect of a VP invoking it seem plausible, but the fact that Presidents pick their cabinets, and are able to fire cabinet members, (And must be able to in order to have an effective administration.) means that the cabinet is a bad choice for confirming the VP's decision. Sure, they regularly encounter the President, which is an advantage, but they have too little independence.
Fortunately the 25th amendment allows Congress to designate a different group in advance. They should do so.
That leaves the vote in Congress. It should probably be a secret vote, to prevent retaliation.
" It should probably be a secret vote"
That is the worst possible idea. One has the cojones to vote one conscience or one ought to resign.
"I was reading up about Woodrow Wilson’s stroke. WW was the inspiration for the 25th Amendment."
The 25th amendment was submitted to the states on July 6, 1965 in the wake of the JFK assassination. There was concern about what would happen if a sitting president were alive but incapacitated.
Third, I think most of the critics of the decision still believe that the law can constrain a populist presidential candidate. It can't.
Trump is no mere populist presidential candidate. He has undertaken a contest for sovereignty—a contest against the jointly sovereign People of the United States. Sovereignty is about the power to constrain, and not merely to constrain by law, but also and chiefly to constrain at pleasure, without limit or interference. A contest for sovereignty is about who shall enjoy that power, and who shall be subject to it.
In American constitutionalism, the jointly sovereign People have long enjoyed the power to constrain; members of the nation's government have been the objects of that constraint. The quote from Blackman which led this comment stands in stark opposition to that doctrine, and to the centuries of history during which it has governed the nation.
It is incongruous, to say the least, to find Blackman—who has enrolled himself in such a momentous struggle—speaking in tones of reassurance and minimization. Blackman could take a lesson in candor from Kevin Roberts, president of the right-wing Heritage Foundation, “We are in the process of the second American Revolution, which will remain bloodless ― if the left allows it to be,” said Roberts a few days ago.
The "jointly sovereign People" have a right to vote for the candidate of their choice don't they?
Why are you trying to deny them that right?
They continue to have that right even if Trump is convicted of the federal charges against him, right?
The voters have the right to know if those charges can be proved in court by a jury of Trump's peers. Why are you trying to deny them that right?
Two and a half years ago when it was the appropriate time to charge Trump then they would have had time to bring him to trial and prove the charges against him.
Now it’s just election interference.
Jack Smith was appointed special counsel 20 months after Jan 6th, but only 3 days after Trump announced he was running in 2024.
They had their chance, they blew it.
Concern about voting choice. Ignore all the rest. I think you need one of my nicknames, Kazinski. I've only bestowed one on Amos 'Whatabout' Arch for obvious reasons. But you...you ignore all objective evidence and just push a narrow agenda. Sort of like Rush Limbaugh before god killed him. Hmmm....
I miss Rush, but I already got a nickname.
When I was a teenager in the early 90's I thought Rush was the coolest. He made fun of all these people I knew nothing about. Made me hate them too. And I did. But as I matured I started to notice that when he was wrong (a lot) he would never admit it or apologize...just kinda sputter and change the subject. Because of my upbringing, it was that that made me turn on him. Eventually you will grow up too, Kazinski. Or perhaps not. You need a special kind of internal compass in the first place to abhor all this hate
Rush was the epitome of the saying: choose a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life.
Always having fun and never letting the bastards wear him down.
Also, great bumper music and intro themes (like Clarence "Frogman" Henry and killer impersonations.
Gone much too soon.
Rush was a cultural cancer.
Kazinski, voting is a power. It is not a right.
Also? There is no right to hold office. Or to run for office. The jointly sovereign People decree at their pleasure which candidates are eligible, and which would-be candidates are not eligible.
Election winners receive the gift of office at the People's pleasure.
To discuss that process in terms of rights is to misunderstand American constitutionalism.
Once again, this is nonsensical and self-contradictory. Under your formulation, if the (so-called) jointly sovereign people want to make an insurrectionist president, that’s their prerogative. The 14th amendment is irrelevant, because the dead people who wrote and enacted it have no power/right/etc. to constrain the (so-called) jointly sovereign people who vote for the insurrectionist today. By definition, anyone that the (so-called) jointly sovereign people choose to gift the office to is eligible.
Nieporent — The jointly sovereign People established at their pleasure various qualifications and disqualifications for office, with an eye to convenience themselves during elections. Those qualifications and disqualifications apply at all times while elections occur. Exercise of the constitutive power is not confined to voting only, which is but one of the aspects of that power.
You are partly correct in your understanding of the notion you attempt to refute. The joint sovereignty is continuously active. Elections, for instance, are a manifestation of that continuity, even at times when Election Day is not presently at hand.
But because it suited them to do so, the jointly sovereign people also decreed in their Constitution various empowerments and constraints on government which they intended to remain in place and operate continuously, pending joint action to revise them at some future date, perhaps long after the generation which authored those decrees. That is not hard to understand. An election cannot upset that intent, unless the election is illegitimately interpreted to go beyond its purpose to award the gift of office according to procedures announced in prior decrees. The constitutive decrees announced Constitutionally remain unaltered until addressed for that specific purpose by the People acting jointly.
Of course I understand the background point of your comment is to object to the notion that sovereign power even exists, and especially to object to the notion that the People's Constitution does not in any way limit the legitimate power of the People themselves to act jointly at any time, at pleasure, and without constraint. On that you are mistaken—mistaken as a matter of political philosophy, mistaken as a matter of history, and even mistaken as a matter of the texts of key founding documents.
No, they don't. Under your theory of sovereignty, tomorrow the so-called "jointly sovereign People" can name a 12-year old foreigner who is also an insurrectionist as president, and nothing that some dead people wrote 230 or 150 years ago about "qualifications" can constrain them.
Of course it can. An election is the jointly sovereign people speaking. They can do whatever they want whenever they want. They do not need to utilize any special procedure or any magic words to overrule anything in the constitution. To say that they do would be to deny that the people are sovereign over the constitution.
How has he contested the sovereignty of the People of the United States?
He led an insurrection and sicced his brownshirts on Congress.
Trump is not charged with insurrection.
And O.J. was acquitted of murder. Legal findings and factual reality are overlapping sets, not a perfect circle.
Trump is charged with crimes that overlap with what “insurrection” in 14A, sec. 3 covers according to various originalist discussions.
Anyway, what he has been criminally indicted for can be different than a non-criminal provision (14A, sec. 3).
It also can be that he did something that was not criminally charged since it would be harder to prosecute as compared to some lesser offenses.
["OJ murdered two people" is a fair statement even if he could not be prosecuted for it after the not guilty verdict.]
To make some general remarks.
So the Biden administration charged him with the Enron Act, because they is easier to prove. They just need to show that Trump corruptly shredded court documents, or otherwise. He did not corruptly shred any court documents, but they just prove the "otherwise", because there is nothing to prove.
They do not, in fact, need to show that he corruptly shredded anything, let alone "court documents." Even under the cramped reading given by SCOTUS in Fischer, they just need to show he falsified or made a false entry in any record or document that might be used in an official proceeding.
Plus that it was intentional, material, and not within his official duties.
In any case, the Obstruction charges will, by necessity, very likely have to be dropped, because (c)(2) was taken out of context of (c)(1).
The president has no duties whatsoever with respect to the electoral college, so that's a really easy showing.
As for the latter, you didn't even read the post to which you responded. According to the Supreme Court's cramped interpretation of (c)(2), it must be interpreted in the light of an entirely different section of the statute (c)(1), and thus only applies to obstruction of official proceedings that in some way involve tampering with/destroying evidence/witnesses/etc. The cases against the J6 insurrectionists did not; the charges against Trump do, and thus are completely consistent with the Fischer decision. They will not be dropped.
It’s silly calling the decision “cramped”. That just means that you didn’t like the result. It was based on centuries of experience and precedent interpreting statutes, which require that earlier portions of a list limit the latter portions.
Which means that, yes, the Obstruction needs to involve document destruction and the like. That wasn’t alleged in either federal case against Trump.
That was in fact alleged in both federal cases against Trump.
Ejercito, it would not be possible to create a more direct challenge to the sovereignty of the People than Trump did when he conspired to create his fake electors scheme.
Do not trouble yourself to deny that on some spurious basis to assert Trump was not involved. His involvement is already proved for practical purposes, with the proof publicized. Only a conspiracy in the corrupt Supreme Court to keep Trump safe from accountability prevents it from being proved in court beyond a reasonable doubt. That certainty is what mobilized the corrupt Court conspiracy in the first place.
“The Fitzgerald Court's "outer perimeter" test was never particularly unhelpful.”
This is not the double negative you’re looking for.
"Indeed, as I noted, the risks from a criminal prosecution of the President are greater than the risk of a civil lawsuit."
You claimed it to be so, yes. You sure as shit didn't prove it though. Indeed the only comparisons you offered didn't involve Presidential authority whatsoever, because you're a fucking hypocritical, dishonest hack.
Tell us again how your 'guardrails' work. Feed everyone another load of your bullshit.
"The only way to defeat Trump is at the ballot box."
Then we might need to settle for watching him die in prison as a consolation prize. I would be content.
Take a deep breath, like my mentor, Darth Vader.
"In the aftermath of Trump v. United States, I wrote a series of posts breaking down most facets of the opinion as a doctrinal matter (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8). . . . Never forget, most commentary about the Supreme Court is performative."
Everything else is just the partisan tears of a clown.
Here's another one by the same songwriter . . . one that got away (or perhaps was taken away, over a weekend).
People have been rightfully dunking on Blackman for so much of this post, but not really engaging on its substance. And said substance is pretty pathetic. Although it uses a ton of words, it basically says, "This is just like Nixon v. Fitzgerald, so no big deal."
But (a) Nixon v. Fitzgerald was from an era when the Court didn't care much about things like text or originalism, whereas this court supposedly cares highly about them, and thus should decline to extend a precedent from that era that isn't based on either; and (b) Nixon v. Fitzgerald itself distinguished civil from criminal and said that the government's interest in prosecuting presidents was much greater than in presidents being suable.
The Biden administration lawfare is unlike anything that the USA has seen before. It would be a radical change to our system of government, if the lawfare against ex-presidents and political opponents is allowed to continue. Scotus is just trying to maintain our system of government.
What guys like Roger S (and the Volokh Conspiracy's operators and fans) wish to maintain in America -- the old-timey misogyny; the backwater xenophobia; the illusory "good old days;" the chanting antisemitism; the obsolete racism; the flattery of childish superstition at the expense of reason and science; the half-educated Islamophobia; the disdain for environmental protections, consumer protections, progress, and modern America in general; the antisocial positions on vaccines, global warming, health laws, education, and the like -- has been rejected by the American liberal-libertarian mainstream and defeated at the modern marketplace of ideas for more than a half-century.
These losers deserve everything they have experienced and everything that is coming to them in the culture war.
Someone taught Roger S and these other rubes the word lawfare and now he (they) squawks it like a parrot. I used to think watching COPS thumping drunk, ignorant, angry people was the height of entertainment...then I found this blog.
Ha! Ha!
Pretending that it doesn’t exist doesn’t negate its existence. What is LawFare? Best definition I have seen is intentional misinterpretation of criminal statutes, which usually means implicit violation of 5th/14th Amdt Due Process protections, for partisan advantage, and very often premiered, or at least condoned, in the LawFare Blog. In the DC case, it was the deliberate misinterpretation (see Fischer) of 18 USC 1512(c)(2) that turned it into LawFare.
Remember when precedent used to be a thing?
And, the ruling was a strongly divided 5-4.
Expanding a bad ruling into an area it expressly says it doesn't cover is pretty bad. It is a standard bait & switch.
"Don't use the courts to demand the answering of subpoenas etc. Don't worry impeachment is always available."
Sorry, you did it wrong & anyway it's meritless partisanship.
"Don't convict, the people will decide"
They decide. We don't like the results.
"Don't convict, civil & criminal means are present"
Nah.
No one asked the Court to overrule Nixon.
No one could. Nobody had standing to raise that issue here.
Actually, Donald Trump (who is being sued civilly as well over his post-election shenanigans) would have had standing to ask that Nixon v. Fitzgerald be overruled, had he preserved the issue in the District Court and in the Court of Appeals.
He could ask that it be overruled in appellate proceedings relating to those civil suits. (I mean, he can ask in an adjudication of a parking ticket, but I assume we all agree that by "he can ask" it's understood that we mean "can legitimately ask.") But any attempt to overrule Nixon v. Fitzgerald in this case would be pure dicta.