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Justice Sotomayor Would Deny Immunity For Abuses of Power, Corrupt Purposes, and Personal Gain
Justice Sotomayor's rhetoric in Trump v. United States mirrors the claims from Trump impeachment 1.0
In Trump v. United States, the actual distance between the majority and dissent is not vast. As Justice Barrett's concurrence points out, there is "substantial agreement" on certain points. Justice Sotomayor, in dissent, wrote that "The idea of a narrow core immunity might have some intuitive appeal, in a case that actually presented the issue." The disagreement really turns on how the Chief Justice chose to address other issues. To that end, the dissent chose very strong rhetoric to illustrate how misguided the majority opinion was.
Three rhetorical themes were repeated: abuse of power, personal gain, and corruption.
First, Justice Sotomayor referred three times to the concept of an "abuse of power":
- Ultimately, the majority pays lip service to the idea that "[t]he President, charged with enforcing federal criminal laws, is not above them," but it then proceeds to place former Presidents beyond the reach of the federal criminal laws for any abuse of official power.
- On the majority's view (but not Trump's), a former President whose abuse of power was so egregious and so offensive even to members of his own party that he was impeached in the House and convicted in the Senate still would be entitled to "at least presumptive" criminal immunity for those acts.
- Second, the majority's new Presidential accountability model undermines the constraints of the law as a deterrent for future Presidents who might otherwise abuse their power, to the detriment of us all.
Long-time readers may recall that the first Trump Impeachment was premised on a charge of "abuse of power." Seth Barrett Tillman and I acknowledged that "abuse of power" could form the basis of an article of impeachment, but we explained that this term was exceptionally difficult to define with regard to politicians. I observed in the New York Times:
The House seeks to expel Mr. Trump because he acted "for his personal political benefit rather than for a legitimate policy purpose." Mr. Trump's lawyers responded, "elected officials almost always consider the effect that their conduct might have on the next election." The president's lawyers are right. And that behavior does not amount to an abuse of power.
Politicians pursue public policy, as they see it, coupled with a concern about their own political future. Otherwise legal conduct, even when plainly politically motivated — but without moving beyond a threshold of personal political gain — does not amount to an impeachable "abuse of power."
Justice Sotomayor bandies about the concept of "abuse of power" but I think this framing creates more problems than it solves. Whether that power is being "abused" is circular. If the President actually has that "core" power, then it would be immune; he would not be abusing the power, he would be exercising it. Moreover, determining whether a power is being abused will largely turn on an assessment of the President's motivations, and his policy preferences. This concept cannot be defined with any sort of neutral principles.
Second, Justice Sotomayor repeated the refrain that the President cannot act for "personal gain."
- When Presidents use the powers of their office for personal gain or as part of a criminal scheme, every person in the country has an interest in that criminal prosecution. The majority overlooks that paramount interest entirely.
- Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends.
- Moving forward, however, all former Presidents will be cloaked in such immunity. If the occupant of that office misuses official power for personal gain, the criminal law that the rest of us must abide will not provide a backstop.
As I noted in the Times, when politicians pursue their conception of the "public good," they invariably will gain personally from it--if nothing else, through electoral success. A president who successfully accomplishes some policy goal will reap the benefits at the ballot box or the polls. If by "personal gain," Justice Sotomayor is referring to the proverbial briefcase full of cash--the quid pro quo--then we are trending towards the bribery hypothetical. But I think all sides agree that bribery would not be subject to immunity. So discussions of "personal gain" outside of the bribery context needs to be further developed.
On that point, the majority provides the correct rejoinder: the President, as the apex elected official, has the power to decide what is in the common good:
And the President's broad power to speak on matters of public concerndoes not exclude his public communications regarding the fairness and integrity of federal elections simply because he is running for re-election. Cf. Hawaii, 585 U. S., at 701. Similarly, the President may speak on and discuss such matters with state officials—even when no specific federal responsibility requires his communication—to encourage them to act in a manner that promotes the President's view of the public good.
Roberts is exactly right. The buck stops there. I think those who served in the executive branch understand this concept intrinsically. Perhaps it makes sense then that Justice Barrett, the only conservative appointee who did not serve in a presidential administration, declined to join the majority's opinion in full.
Third, Justice Sotomayor turns to the theme of corruption. She uses that concept to strong rhetorical effect. Sotomayor writes:
- Under that rule, any use of official power for any purpose, even the most corrupt purpose indicated by objective evidence of the most corrupt motives and intent, remains official and immune.
- Whether described as presumptive or absolute, under the majority's rule, a President's use of any official power for any purpose, even the most corrupt, is immune from prosecution.
Last week I noted that the Court really does not want to define corruption. And Justice Sotomayor does not define it here. She simply assumes readers will share her understanding of that concept. As a legal matter, if conduct is immune, the motivations are irrelevant. Would Justice Sotomayor probe an official's motivations to determine whether immunity attached? That is certainly not how immunity analysis is done in other contexts.
And, once again, Sotomayor's points harken back to the first Trump impeachment. Tillman and I wrote in December 2019:
However, impeachment for an "abuse of power" based solely on "corrupt" intent gives Presidents no notice, whatsoever, of what is expected of them. There is a nearly infinite range of conduct that can fall within this category. The House report explains, "[t]here are at least as many ways to abuse power as there are powers vested in the President." Virtually anything the President does can give rise to impeachment if a majority of Congress thinks he had an improper intent.
There is nothing new under the sun. During the first impeachment, Trump was alleged to have abused his power for personal gain based on corrupt motives. Justice Sotomayor's dissent in Trump v. United States would deny immunity when an official abuses his power for personal again based on corrupt motives. While the former charge arguably may have been suited for the quasi-political impeachment context, the latter charge does not belong in a federal court. Even where I struggle with the Chief's opinion on originalist grounds, on pragmatic grounds it is solid.
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Virtually anything the President does can give rise to impeachment if a majority of Congress thinks he had an improper intent.
Why, yes. It’s a political “national inquest” based on the judgment of the House of Representatives. Of course, a supermajority of the Senate has to convict, which is a significant check.
The Supreme Court gave Congress broad if not unlimited discretion over impeachment in Walter Nixon v. U.S. Some vagueness problem does not make it “unconstitutional.”
Your desire to support Trump’s corruption & provide limited means to check it, even by impeachment, is duly noted.
"Even where I struggle with the Chief's opinion on originalist grounds, on pragmatic grounds it is solid."
Net result is to give Trump immunity. Check.
It is worth noting that Josh, like the members of the court's majority, has abandoned originalism as any sort of principle. Clearly "pragmatism," or rather getting to the desired outcome, outweighs it by far.
This strikes me as a bit tendentious. It's not their (Admitted!) failure to be strict originalists that you object to; J,K&S aren't strict originalists, either, and you don't complain a bit about it. In fact, if the majority were strict originalists, you'd hate them even more.
It's not their being partisan hacks, either, by the exact same reasoning. J,K&S get a pass on that.
Fundamentally, what pisses you off is that they're not partisan hacks for YOUR side.
You misunderstand.
Of course I don't object to the fact that they are not strict originalists. I would like it better if they weren't originalists at all.
All I'm doing is pointing out that for all the arguments about originalism being the bedrock of Constitutional law, and the "objective" way to do things, they are glad to abandon it when the result doesn't suit them. Principles be damned. And yes, they are Trumpist hacks, though Roberts might be more accurately described as a Republican hack.
And no, you have no idea what pisses me off. Since You are interested I will tell you that what pisses me off is that they are trying hard to help destroy the country, and more so, that there are so many like Blackman who can't wait to help out.
I've said before that Trump has promised policies that ought to disqualify him from being dogcatcher. But the "own the libs" crowd doesn't give a fuck. Instead, you make up BS excuses.
Well, I agree with Trump that Reagan and the Bushes treated veterans like crap and that Reagan’s economy was shit.
It certainly was bad for lazy fraudsters like SB-F.
"All I’m doing is pointing out that for all the arguments about originalism being the bedrock of Constitutional law, and the “objective” way to do things, they are glad to abandon it when the result doesn’t suit them."
Of course they are. And your guys don't even take it up to abandon.
They say that hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue, your three aren't even paying that tribute. They're not hypocrites because they don't even pretend most of the time to be trying to do the right thing. Our guys at least feel bad about being hacks, and act non-hackishly at the margins.
You can't get onto the Court if you're not something of a hack; The whole modern state rests on a series of hackish deliberate misinterpretation of things like the interstate commerce clause, it's wildly unconstitutional. Presidents would not nominate, and the Senate not confirm, anybody they suspected of being genuinely principled!
But you're not pissed because they're often hacks. You're pissed because they're not YOUR hacks.
And your guys don’t even take it up to abandon.
Right. Why should they? Neither Kagan nor Sotomayer particularly claims to be an originalist - they don't cite it as a bedrock principle.
Jackson does, but her interpretations generally don't match standard conservative ideology.
I'm sure you think you know how the Constitution should be read in all circumstances. You may be surprised to learn that there are those who disagree, and in good faith, not as part of some devious scheme.
No Bernie, you simply don't like the principles applied by the Court. This ruling simply applies established constitutional principles to a case originating from the unprecedented abusive lawfare used by the Biden DOJ to target the corrupt reptile’s political opponents. You're simply upset that this stage of the lawfare has been derailed.
To be exact, a supermajority of the senators that vote.
Yes, always worth mentioning that a party that doesn't mind triggering the political equivalent of nuclear war can win on an issue no matter how extreme, by holding a snap vote when they've arranged for only people who agree to be present. And maybe do it as a voice vote to conceal the absence of a quorum.
That's the real nuclear option, in American politics.
Because... then the VP becomes P? My goodness! What a devastating political blow!
You guys are weirdly personally invested in your politicians, like they're your sports heroes or something. Or cult leaders.
Compare Biden. One bad debate and we want him gone. Whereas you've quintupled down on your corrupt incompetent felonious con man.
You forgot to add "rapist" to your list of qualities for Trump. Let's not be incomplete, okay
"nuclear war"
Let's ask people in Japan if this is a good analogy.
In the real world, it would be hard for the party to make sure the other party doesn't show up. I provided the clarification to be exact but it is not surprising it never actually was relevant in practice.
And once the Senate gets the articles of impeachment in their hands then they can threaten the president with removal in order to get the president to do what they believe is the right thing. So McConnell could have put together a grand bargain in January 2020 that included funding the border wall and DACA and Trump agreeing not to run again in 2020. So with Johnson they shouldn’t have held the removal vote but instead cut a deal with him.
Political version of a plea deal. Trump never would have gone for it.
Republicans in the Senate were too weak to do it, but if they would have credibly threatened removal I think Trump would have taken the deal so long as he could say that it was his decision to not run again because he fulfilled all of his campaign promises. I just think McConnell missed an opportunity to get these done…and remember judicial appointments were Mcconnell’s priority and not Trump’s and McConnell was fine sacrificing Trump’s presidency in order to get Roe overturned.
The problem with this pig's dissent is that "corrupt purposes, personal gain and abuse of process" is in the eye of the beholder.
I think that reversing a two year old decision to make it easier for Democrats to cheat is corrupt purposes.
I think decreeing that the Due Process Clause creates a right to ejaculate into another man's anus is an abuse of process.
And I think it's corrupt to allow women to steal money from fathers while killing their babies if they feel like it.
Sure but you're either a joke account or a sociopath so who cares
Suicide is always an option for people like you.
As a legal matter, if conduct is immune, the motivations are irrelevant.
No matter what? Accepting a bribe for a pardon is immune?
The pardon itself has to be immune. Taking the bribe, OTOH, is hardly an exercise of a core power.
In order to prove the bribe you’d have to introduce evidence related to the pardon power. That evidence would be excluded by Trump v US.
No, you'd have to introduce evidence of the bribe. A bribe is a crime regardless of what you bribed someone to do.
Heck, you can't even just give the President money on a whim to do nothing! That's what an emolument is, after all.
How do you prove that it's a bribe rather than just a gratuity?
Incorrect. The Constitution has two emoluments clauses relating to the president; they forbid the president from accepting money from foreign governments, state governments, or the U.S. itself. Neither forbids him from accepting money from private citizens — of the U.S. or foreign countries.
Proving a bribe for a pardon is no harder than proving bribery of a Congressman to get a bill advanced. Core legislative acts are as privileged as a president's pardon. Which is to say it is hard, but it is not necessarily beyond the ambition of the Department of Justice to give the case a try.
That is the state of current jurisprudence on speech and debate, but does that strike you as overly broad? The framers specified "...Any Speech or Debate..." If they wanted to include all other "core legislative acts," they could have so written. I'm not asking a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious about this.
"ndicated by objective evidence of the most corrupt motives and intent,"
What are we talking about here? A diary entry saying. "June 12th: Today I acted with corrupt intent."?
What is objective evidence of corrupt intent? Is both the evidence of intent AND the corrupt nature of that intent objective? I'm having philosophical trouble understanding how the evaluation of even an undisputed motivation ad "corrupt" could be objective; The "is/ought" problem rears its head.
Bribery is corrupt. So is political assassination, insurrection, treason, coups. One may not know where the exact line is, but we sure can tell what is obviously on the corrupt side.
This ruling will backfire badly. Someone who knows they are immune to criminal charges is dangerous.
Molly,
Who was prosecuted for the coup and murder of Qaddafi? Same question for Saddam? Alliende? Similar question for Soleimani?
Seem to me that lots of coorupt actions have been excused in the past.
Are you saying that there is no immunity whatsoever? Let's start the analysis with that question.
Corruption isn't per se criminal. If the President corruptly stops to tie his shoe for personal gain, he hasn't broken any laws. You need to explain in more detail what these hypothetical prosecutions should have charged the President with, and why the existing exceptions and defenses wouldn't apply.
We all know trolls literally get hard thinking about how to say blatantly idiotic things that upset others. The only difference between josh and half the comments is he's a law professor, presumably because Texas is run by trolls.
Let's all just stop commenting on his stuff. Don't read his posts. The best way to beat a troll is to ignore it
,,,and yet you're here.
It's good advice but I doubt he's here for comment hits. Not at the level he is taking this subject.
Someone told me that if you look in the mirror and say “Blackman” 5 times his spirit will come and defend Nixon…I’m too scared to do it!
He appears to be a law professor because Leonard Leo bought a faculty appointment from an especially shitty law school. For cash.
We all know trolls literally get hard thinking about how to say blatantly idiotic things
You must have been like the Rock of Gibraltar.
Objective evidence need not be shown. A corrupt state of mind, like any culpable mental state, is ordinarily proven by circumstantial evidence. (The factfinder is permitted to consider direct evidence, circumstantial evidence or any combination thereof.) A properly instructed jury is entitled to consider the accused's conduct, statements, evidence or absence of evidence of motive, hope of gain, benefit or reward, plus whatever other facts make it more or less probable that he acted with the intent alleged in the charging instrument, and to give each item of evidence the weight the jurors believe it deserves. If the evidence is sufficient for any rational trier of fact to find the culpable mental state (as well as every other essential element of the offense) to have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, with all permissible inferences drawn in favor of the prosecution, then a jury question is presented and any ensuing conviction will be affirmed on appeal.
Occasionally, direct evidence of intent will be presented. I recall representing a premeditated murder defendant where the decedent was killed inside her home. Police recovered a notebook from the scene containing the inscription, "I Allan, am going to kill Amy and myself. I'm sorry but she has messed with my life for the last time[.]" Despite an earlier conviction having been reversed because of instructional error, State v. Brooks, 880 S.W.2d 390 (Tenn.Crim.App. 1994), the prosecutor made no offer pretrial other than a plea to the charged offense
Is there an objective definition of corrupt?
What do you mean by "objective"? The relevant statute does not define the term. The trial court will define the term based on decisional law, after receiving input from the parties.
If you had ever tried a lawsuit, you would know that.
Yeah, but as Justice Scalia once said: [A] criminal statute must give fair warning of the conduct that it makes a crime." Bouie v. City of Columbia, 378 U.S. 347, 350, 84 S. Ct. 1697, 12 L. Ed. 2d 894 (1964). * * * It is simply not fair to prosecute someone for a crime that has not been defined until the judicial decision that sends him to jail. "How can the public be expected to know what the statute means when the judges and prosecutors themselves do not know, or must make it up as they go along?" Rybicki, supra, at 160 (Jacobs, J., dissenting).
[Sorich v. United States, 555 U.S. 1024, 1027 (2009); dissent from denial of certiorari.]
Yeah, but I'm not the one who introduced "objectivity" to the room, now, was I? That's the lady in the black robe, who I'm mocking.
What is objective evidence of corrupt intent?
What about testimony from one of the partners in crime? Of course, Roberts tries hard to exclude that, just to make sure Trump gets away.
I think that not guilty answered your question.
Aside from the fact that Roberts excludes it, why would such a person testify, anyway?
For all the usual reasons? Immunity deal, plea deal, sentencing leniency, a grudge...
Blackman will flip-flop should a former POTUS who is a Democrat face criminal charges.
Of course, that’s why it was so disingenuous for Republicans to call on Derpawitz to testify as an expert…he was such an expert Republicans ignored his expert testimony in 1999.
Dan Epps had a tweet about this. Something like if Justice Merrick Garland had authored a 5-4 decision granting immunity from criminal prosecution to President Hillary Clinton, the conservative legal community would be writing outraged opinions for years.
A related question that might come up soon:
What power do state courts/DC courts have with respect to placing the President under a conservatorship?
That’s what the 25th Amendment is for.
So Presidents are immune from conservatorships?
Trump resides in Florida which has the Baker Act, which effectively allows anyone to have anyone involuntarily committed for three days by claiming that the person is a danger to himself or others. Not sure how the practicalities would play out If someone actually tried to use it against a former president.
But I don’t see how a president or former president would be exempt from a state’s civil laws as they apply to stuff that’s obviously not related to official business. If the secret service walked in on an attempted presidential suicide, does he not get a ride to a psych ward just because he’s president? How about if he really did shoot someone on Fifth Avenue in broad daylight; his base might not care but I’ll bet local law enforcement would. But then, before last week’s Supreme Court ruling I wouldn’t have thought he would have immunity at all so maybe he would. Who knows at this point?
"What power do state courts/DC courts have with respect to placing the President under a conservatorship?"
Without having researched the issue, I would think that jurisdiction in personam would be limited to the President's home state and perhaps the local courts of the District of Columbia. State/local law would likely govern matters such as who has standing to request appointment of a conservator, what quantum of proof is required, who is qualified to serve as a conservator, what duties and obligations a conservator would undertake and what supervision the appointing court would exercise.
Again, these are seat of the pants musings.
12",
That is simply not happening. Abandon your wet dream.
I don’t see a fundamental issue but generally presidents keep most of their assets in trust while in office so a conservator wouldn’t have much to do. You may be thinking of a guardianship, which I think would be legally permissible. It would be kind of funny to have a President who couldn’t make his own healthcare decisions but could launch nukes, if it happened in a novel.
What are the objective standards for "Abuses of Power", "Corrupt Purposes" or "Personal Gain"?
And since every President in my lifetime has entered the office just well off (except Trump), and exited extremely well off (except Trump) is "personal gain" something the leftists like Sotomayor really want to talk about? Seems like (recently) Clinton, Obama, Biden, even Carter could run afoul of it.
Time to review Thomas Becketts attitude about laws, I think
And since every President in my lifetime has entered the office just well off (except Trump), and exited extremely well off (except Trump) is “personal gain” something the leftists like Sotomayor really want to talk about?
I don't know if JFK was President in your lifetime, but he was certainly more than "just well off" when elected. As were the Bushes and, most likely, Reagan.
It's also important to note that Presidents piling up the bucks after leaving office is a relatively recent development, maybe starting with Reagan.
At the end of the day, I always come back to the Obama ordered drone assassinations of US Citizens.
Were they "bad people" who Obama ordered to be assassinated? Sure. But simply because a US Citizen is a bad person, the President doesn't have the unilateral authority to be judge, jury, and (commander) of the execution squad.
Let's pretend that Presidents "aren't" given immunity for their potentially criminal acts. Then Obama could essentially be blackmailed or threatened by any future president... Cooperate or else criminal charges that may result in the death penalty may be made.
I think an American citizen who is also an enemy combatant gets classified as an enemy combatant rather than as a citizen. And I’m betting that’s how a jury would analyze it too.
Yeah, and that's perfectly fine, enact a law making being an enemy combatant a death penalty office, and sic the drone on them after they get convicted of being one in a jury trial.
Imposing the death penalty on the basis that a hypothetical jury would, as you imagine it, have convicted them? Screw that.
More performative Trump sycophancy, pretending inability to make distinctions you very well understand. It's mysterious what you think you get out of doing that, but the process is utterly transparent.
Obama put out a hit on a US citizen, outside a war zone, with no declared war. Those are the objective facts, and if Presidents aren't above the law it was murder.
You can make all sorts of arguments for why it was the right thing to do, but the question is whether it was a legal thing to do.
We've made Presidents into temporary kings, only you don't want Trump to benefit from that. I'm fine with NO President being a king, but forget this business of treating Trump differently.
Is your argument that since in your opinion Obama broke the law and wasn't prosecuted, therefore Trump shouldn't be prosecuted? Or just that partisan Democrats shouting about prosecuting Trump are hypocrites. The first argument is ridiculous, the second is trite.
The argument is, US Presidents should be allowed immunity from criminal prosecution for their official acts. Otherwise, they may make technically illegal acts in the course of their duties which opens them up to prosecution (or potential prosecution) and severely limits their future capabilities.
Yes, it limits their future capabilities to commit crimes! Which we want to do! Just as we want everyone else to be so limited! That's the entire purpose of criminal law!
If it's actually illegal — "technically illegal" isn't a thing — to employ a drone strike against an American member of Al Qaeda in Yemen, then either:
a) The law should be changed to make that legal; or
b) Presidents shouldn't do it.
The Supreme Court's answer is just terrible, horrible, no good, very bad:
c) It remains 100% illegal, but former presidents can't be prosecuted for having done it.
Brett actually believes the "lawfare" talking point, and he also believes that the Dems are as much of a cult as MAGA is, and therefore that we'd care about cases in which former Democratic presidents could be open to hypothetical lawfare.
Only in one direction. Would he -- or the other clingers -- call the practice of filing novel lawsuits advancing a right-wing wish list in front of drawling conservative justices, hoping to get the Supreme Court to create whole cloth or reverse precedent, "lawfare?"
Enemy combatants such as terrorists and other irregular fighters are engaged in hostile actions against the United States, and because they operate outside the standards of acceptable conduct by armed forces during wartime, they are not typically afforded rights including the Geneva Convention.
Citizen. Outside a war zone. No declared war.
So, how exactly do you get designated an "enemy combatant", and thus lose your normal citizen immunity against the government up and deciding to kill you without first convicting you of a capital crime?
I don't care what rights the Geneva convention afforded him, I care what rights the US Constitution afforded him.
So, that brings us to the key question here: Does Trump, too, get to designate people "enemy combatants", and then extra-judicially kill them? Maybe even on 5th Avenue?
I would allow a post-hoc hearing on whether the deceased was in fact an enemy combatant. I might even allow a pre-hoc hearing on it, if it can be done without jeopardizing the mission. But at the end of the day, enemy combatants assume the risk.
"But at the end of the day, enemy combatants assume the risk."
That's an accusation against a US citizen which should be adjudicated before blowing them up, don't you think?
That depends. In a perfect world my preference would have been for him to have been brought back to the US for trial and afforded full due process. I would have preferred that for Osama bin Laden as well.
But the constraints and realities of global terrorism are that we sometimes don’t have that luxury. This guy was actively trying to kill as many Americans as he could. We knew where he was at that moment but not where he’d be a day later; it was a case of kill him now if you’re going to. So I’m fine with the way Obama handled it.
Al Alwaki was on an assassination list for over a year and a half before his death.
By February 4, 2010, the New York Daily News reported that al-Awlaki was "now on a targeting list signed off on by the Obama administration"
On September 30, 2011, al-Awlaki was killed in a U.S. drone strike in Al Jawf Governorate, Yemen.
In that entire year and a half, there was "no time for a trial"? Or even a hearing. No time for any due process?
Oh come on, you’re not really that dense. Having him on a list for a year and actually being able to take him into custody during that time are not the same. We got him when we were able to.
I hate to agree with Armchair on anything at all, however:
Do you think no adjudication of his status and simply signing his death warrant from afar is better than an ex-parte hearing?
You're assuming a tremendous amount of good faith, and ignoring entirely that he was given absolutely no Due Process of any kind before being assassinated.
You're not getting it Krychek,
There's no due process. Zero. No courts, no evidence, nothing except the government says "You're on a kill list. Sucks to be you. Now die". No chance to say "Look, you made a mistake, I just happen to have the same name as this other bad guy!"
al-Awlaki's father challenged the kill list in court. He was told he didn't have standing and it was a political question anyway. There ARE options that don't require the suspect to be in custody. Ex-Parte hearings. Revocation of citizenship. None of that was done.
Krychek...let's say the government puts you on this kill list. Maybe by mistake. What do you do? What legal options do you have?
Surrender; turn yourself in to the government. Nobody — except maybe Dr. Ed — even remotely suggests that the government can use a drone strike on someone who's in custody.
I don't see any meaningful distinction. A hearing in which he doesn't have the opportunity to participate and in which nobody has the ability to challenge the government's presentation — both because it's ex parte and because all supporting information is exclusively within the government's control — has no value.
That is honestly an extremely frightening interpretation of federal power.
Who classifies who is an "enemy combatant"? Just the President?
We have a "War on Drugs." Can the US President order assassinations of US Citizens who are smuggling drugs overseas, and name then "enemy combatants"? Fentanyl has killed far more US Citizens than terrorism has. These are "very bad people" who are smuggling and profiting off the death of US Citizens.
And if you tell me, the US President has no immunity for his official actions taken as president...the honest truth is, ordering the death of a US Citizen in an assassination strike is a crime. It's a crime for anyone else to do it, and if the president has no immunity for his official actions, then it's a crime for him as well.
The “war” on drugs is a metaphorical war, unlike the actual shooting war being waged by terrorists against the US. What’s the argument that he wasn’t an enemy combatant? There may be situations in which it’s a close question but this is not one of them.
When you actually physically go to war against the US you get treated like anyone else who has taken up arms against the US. But if some crazy prosecutor wants to try Obama for murder, fine. Bring the indictment and we’ll see what the jury thinks.
So a 16-yo citizen went to war against the US because he was with his dad in Yemen? Sure. One might make that claim about the father.
But why didn't the president take the second drone strike to the FISA court? Because of convenience?
You're just making excuses. However, no one was ever going to prosecute Mr Obama. And now we know he was immune. In fact that is reasonable in that case.
No, because it wasn't necessary to take it to the FISA court. An enemy combatant is an enemy combatant.
He was a kid traveling with his father.
You like to cite "facts" to support your narrative
Then don't travel with enemy combatants. If you do, you take the risk that you may get blown up.
It's an unfortunate fact of life that when people do bad things, innocent bystanders often suffer. A man goes to prison, leaving behind a wife who now has to figure out how to raise his children without their income, their children who are now growing up without a father, and who also now face the stigma of having a father in jail. It's not their fault, but they're the ones that suffer. I don't like it either but that's the facts of life. And I care more about protecting Americans from enemy combatants than I do about giving enemy combatants due process rights.
Wow.
Does all of that apply in Gaza?
It seems to me you don’t understand the reason we have due process.
It’s not a meaningless favor or a symbolic affirmation that we grant to people we’ve already decided to kill, Krychek. It’s the process by which we decide who deserves punishment and who doesn’t. It’s a decision that our constitution explicitly takes away from the executive branch.
Otherwise all you have is the bald assertion of person ordering the summary execution. You like and trust Obama so you’re fine with him being judge, jury, and executioner. Are you unaware that there is an election coming up and who is leading in the polls?
I suppose if you’ve descended into a “who, whom” theory of justice, then all that matters is if it’s one of “Us” (Obama, Democrats, urbane Western Europeans) or “Them” (terrorists, Trump, Republicans) on giving vs taking side of this summary execution thing you support.
You're making a category error. Attacking enemy combatants (whether soldiers, terrorists, or something else) isn't about "punishment." Indeed, legitimate enemy soldiers in wartime haven't even broken any law or done anything to deserve punishment. But we can still blow them up, until they're rendered hors de combat.
What role do you think the FISA court could play? As the full expansion of the acronym suggests, the FISA court is about surveillance, not about blowing stuff up.
Krychek,
1. The "War on Drugs" is every bit as real as the "War on Terrorism." Drug users and smugglers have shot far more often at US Agents than terrorists have. You can make nearly identical arguments for both.
2. The argument isn't that he is or isn't an "enemy combatant." It's who gets to choose that. And how that definition somehow overrules the US Citizenship he has. (If you want to be picky about it, he never fired a shot at US forces, but that's a non sequitor).
3. "When you physically go to war."
--What war? What declaration? We're not talking about a combat situation here, where you could make a realistic claim about combat
4. "we’ll see what the jury thinks" Sure. Maybe a nice jury in Wyoming. Or maybe a military tribunal. Or maybe we just hand Obama over to the International Criminal Court.
I very much doubt that the reddest MAGA jury in the reddest state in the country would fault Obama for taking out an enemy combatant. You cannot insist that you have constitutional rights when you are in the middle of waging war on the Constitution itself.
"You cannot insist that you have constitutional rights when you are in the middle of waging war on the Constitution itself."
That is when Constitutional rights are most important. History is littered with incidents of governments and dictators that needed to "suspend" Constitutional rights during a conflict. More often than not, those Constitutional rights never returned.
"I very much doubt that the reddest MAGA jury in the reddest state in the country would . . ."
If you discount, let alone dismiss, how stupid, disaffected, bigoted, antisocial, superstitious, and worthless a backwater right-wing jury could be, you err severely.
The difference, of course, is that the “war on drugs” is a rhetorical term that some people sometimes use to describe some enforcement actions, as opposed to the Congressionally-approved use of military force at issue in the drone strikes.
This one.
"This one"
"Page not found."
That says it all.
That’s what I get for trying to be fancy.
https://www.congress.gov/93/statute/STATUTE-87/STATUTE-87-Pg555.pdf
The 1973 War Powers Resolution? Really? You think THAT justifies the killing of a US Civilian in a targeted assassination in 2012? THAT serves as a declaration of war? When its intent was the absolute opposite of that?
Wow.
I managed to fat finger the better link a second time, but… yes. In accordance with the War Powers Resolution, Congress authorized the president to use military force against al-Qaeda. Maybe I’ll actually be able to post the right source this time.
https://www.congress.gov/107/plaws/publ40/PLAW-107publ40.pdf
And you know what's even more frightening? The idea that a president should be able to get away with murder.
I think you are flat out wrong that what Obama did was murder. I think enemy combatants are fair game for drone strikes regardless of citizenship. But if I'm wrong about that and it really was murder, then what's the argument that a president should be able to get away with murder?
What you're essentially arguing is a legal blank check -- we won't prosecute the crimes your guy commits if you won't prosecute the crimes my guy commits. And you have got to be kidding. You really want that to be the standard?
"I think enemy combatants are fair game for drone strikes regardless of citizenship. "
Then quote the law that allows that.
"then what’s the argument that a president should be able to get away with murder?"
That's an interesting question. Took a brief look at the US Constitution again, to see if the President had any responsibilities to "Defend the Country against foreign aggression"
The best I found was the oath of office
""I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
That's a thin reed to support assassinations of US Citizens.
You've got that ass backward. The president has not just the right but the duty to protect the country, and that necessarily implies the ability to take any steps not specifically unlawful. So you're the one who needs to find something that says that enemy combatants are entitled to due process. Good luck.
Would you agree that if a US citizen had put on a Nazi uniform during WWII and fought for the Germans, that he would not have been entitled to due process before one of our soldiers shot him? If you do, and I certainly hope you do, then we're quibbling about where the line is to be drawn and not whether it exists.
"Would you agree that if a US citizen had put on a Nazi uniform during WWII and fought for the Germans, that he would not have been entitled to due process before one of our soldiers shot him?"
Depends on the circumstances.
1) If it was open battle, and the citizen just caught a bullet during the fight that's one thing. Most courts would consider that legal, as they would of any criminal shot and killed during a shootout with the police.
2) If the citizen was caught as a POW, and then executed as a traitor without a trial, that would be quite illegal. As would courts if a prisoner in a US prison was just summarily shot by the police without a trial.
3) If the individual was declared a "traitor" by the administration, but NOT GIVEN A TRIAL (even in absentia) and specifically sought out for an assassination order, that would be illegal. Just like the courts would consider an assassination order against a criminal in the US illegal.
There is a list of US traitors to the Nazis in WWII below. Many served the same sort of propaganda role for the enemy as the Obama assassination case. None of them were summarily assassinated. Instead, they were captured and given due process and a trial. Take a look.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Allied_traitors_during_World_War_II
Now you’re just being deliberately obtuse. Al-Awlaki was a propagandist, but he wasn’t targeted for that: he was targeted because he was an operational commander for al-Qaeda.
Had Admiral Yamamoto held dual citizenship, do you think that we would have had to confront him with an arrest warrant rather than fighter planes?
"Al-Awlaki was a propagandist, but he wasn’t targeted for that: "
Now you're just trying to justify things in hindsight. Al-Awlaki wasn't anything close to Admiral Yamamoto.
Again and again from Trump defenders we get these purported analogies which aren't analogous. The Trump defenders pretend they can't see the difference. I don't think any Trump defender actually thinks Obama was guilty of murder. I don't think any Trump defender thinks Trump is innocent in the Florida documents case.
All this Trump defender blather is about trying to run out the clock, to get as soon as possible down to the business of authoritarian government. Problem is, the corrupt Supreme Court majority skipped right past authoritarian, and authorized totalitarian.
It's not an analog Stephen.
It's an "example" of an official action taken by the President (or semi-official) that would be a crime if anyone else did it.
If you or I ordered the assassination of a "bad" US Citizen overseas, it would be murder. And we would be prosecuted for it, if it was found out. There's no question there.
You've got to argue why it's OK for the President to do it, while simultaneously arguing that he is subject to the same laws that every other US Citizen is.
No, I do not have to argue that way. I am not commander in chief of the U.S. military. Military exigency has forever received legal deference, within limits, for those charged with military command. Obama was far within the limits.
I think you know that. You join other Trump sycophants commenting here, as examples of unskilled reasoners afflicted with repellent motives, however obscure you prefer to keep the motives. I might be persuaded to be charitable in your case—perhaps you enjoy a sense of belonging, with Trump sycophancy the most easily accessible group-acceptance option in your locale.
Stephen,
We're not talking about "Military exigency." We're talking about "The Law"
The law is very clear. 18 U.S. Code § 1119 & 18 U.S. Code § 1117
18 U.S. Code § 1119
A person who, being a national of the United States, kills or attempts to kill a national of the United States while such national is outside the United States but within the jurisdiction of another country shall be punished as provided under sections 1111, 1112, and 1113.
18 U.S. Code § 1117
If two or more persons conspire to violate section 1111, 1114, 1116, or 1119 of this title, and one or more of such persons do any overt act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be punished by imprisonment for any term of years or for life.
Now perhaps you can cite SOME law that somehow gives the commander in chief of the U.S. military a "Freebee" to ignore this law. Or perhaps you can agree with the SCOTUS that official acts of the US President are immune from prosecution. But if you say "official acts of the POTUS aren't immune"...you need some other way for the president to be able to be immune from 18 U.S. Code § 1117 in these circumstances.
You might be able to get away with "The heat of battle" or something in other situtations. But not a standing assassination order, by drone...
And it would have been illegal for me to send armed men to kill Osama bin Laden too. There are some things the President can do that I can’t. Killing enemy combatants is one of them.
"And it would have been illegal for me to send armed men to kill Osama bin Laden too."
Can you cite the US law that would make that illegal? Killing (or conspiracy to kill) a non-US national not on US soil? (Yes, it would almost certainly be illegal under Pakistani law).
Yes.
18 U.S.C. § 956(a)(1).
So Krychek just needs to go 12.1 miles offshore, then he's good.
Given that the Democrats were perfectly willing to call normal exercises of core powers "abuse of power" I'm not thinking this means anything.
Right. Abuse of power, corruption, obstruction, and fraud do not mean anything anymore. Real crimes have elements that have to be proved. I think that Biden is abusing his power to prosecute Trump. Others have other opinions.
"Abuse of power, corruption, obstruction, and fraud do not mean anything anymore. Real crimes have elements that have to be proved. I think that Biden is abusing his power to prosecute Trump. Others have other opinions."
Joe Biden is not prosecuting Donald Trump. The Attorney General appointed a Special Counsel when Donald Trump declared his candidacy for president, in order to insulate President Biden from charging decisions regarding Trump and his cohorts. Trump is before the federal courts because grand juries in the District of Columbia and Florida found probable cause to indict Trump for multiple felony offenses.
Biden cannot be insulated under US law. All federal prosecutors work for Biden. Biden campaign ads even brag about prosecuting Trump.
Yes, grand juries have been induced to indict Trump under novel legal theories that have been largely refuted by Scotus. It is all a plot to undermine democracy by using lawfare to cripple a political opponent.
Biden campaign ads even brag about prosecuting Trump.
Fact check: lie.
Here is an ad where Biden complains that his prosecution of Trump has already lost a key issue before Scotus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-gY2e4j1jg
God what a liebaby you are. Do you think we’re not going to click the link? The ad doesn’t even mention any of the Trump prosecutions or lawsuits.
Master America, the story of a sad loser.
Huh? The ad is very directly talking about the adverse (to the government) immunity ruling, which was issued in one of the prosecutions of Trump.
Lol. That’s like saying a campaign ad endorsing the result in Dobbs is bragging about the actions of Dallas’s hard-nosed attorney general.
Justice Sotomayor Would Deny Immunity For Abuses of Power, Corrupt Purposes, and Personal Gain
I don't see why this is such a bad thing. if these abuses, etc. are illegal. Nor am I stupid or craven enough to think that a core power inherently permits breaking the law in its exercise.
Did Clinton obstruct justice by pardoning Marc Rich?
No. His pardon of Marc Rich was unfortunate but it was not obstruction of justice.
If it wasn't unjust, why was it unfortunate?
“Unjust” and “obstruction of justice” are not the same thing. Obstruction of Justice is a legal term of art with a specific legal meaning. Unjust is a philosophical and metaphysical question.
One could argue that any pardon is unjust because it’s unfair to similarly situated people who didn’t get pardoned. But that’s not the same as obstructing justice in the legal sense.
Rich was a philanthropist and a lot of international heavy hitters, not connected with Clinton, were actively urging the pardon.
I don't have supporting evidence, but I suspect that Denise Rich got horizontal with Bill Clinton in exchange for the pardon of her husband.
"But Clinton!"
You lot can't help yourselves.
At worst he sold a pardon. The McDougal pardon was closer to obstruction of justice, a reward for her not testifying against him, but it falls short. If a new investigation had started she would not have been protected by the pardon. There is no evidence that she offered him anything of value, or even future silence, in return for a pardon.
Basically one can summarise the two positions - opinion and dissent - thus: opinion - the president needs to be protected from The People; dissent - The People need to be protected from the president
Protected from the President?
There is absolutely no history of using criminal prosecution as a tool to protect people from the President.
There is also no previous history of a president sending a mob to the Capitol to disrupt the vote count, or asking state officials to change the vote, or attempting to get fake electors certified, or falsely claiming that the election was fake. The reason this situation has never arisen before is that we've never had a president like Donald Trump before, and there are entirely legitimate concerns about what he would do for an encore.
There's no present history of a president sending a mob to the Capitol to disrupt the vote count, either. If you could prove THAT, you'd have charged him with it, and put him on trial. You're just fantasizing. The only people in the government there's any evidence to pin that mob on happen to work at the FBI.
"or asking state officials to change the vote, or attempting to get fake electors certified, or falsely claiming that the election was fake.
Wow, were you living in a cave all my lifetime? Seriously, were you?
You just keep telling yourself that.
“or asking state officials to change the vote, or attempting to get fake electors certified, or falsely claiming that the election was fake.
In other words, exercising his freedom of speech and freedom to petition the government for the redress of grievances.
Yerah, but fake electors necessarily entails crimes like perjury, forgery, and identity theft, which aren't presidential powers in any way.
Then why does he "love" them and want to pardon them all? He should hate them for not following his instructions and messing up his life. Right, Brett?
Even Scotus says that hundreds of them have been falsely convicted.
For the first impeachment of Trump, Dershowitz testified that there's nothing wrong with the president doing whatever it takes to win on the grounds that he thinks his re-election is in the national interest. When people pointed out how insane this was, he threw a tantrum, claimed people were misquoting him and he never said that, and (IIRC) even sued one of the outlets that reported that. Blackman, in contrast, just leans into that argument.
Um, do you actually have a link to him specifically saying that? Because I don't recall him saying anything like that.
Jan 30, 2020
Dersh …. more verbose than Nixon,
but a similar principle:
“If a president does something which he believes will help him get elected, in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment,”
That was the opinion of everyone, not just Dershowitz, until some people got consumed by Trump hatred.
I don't see any, "whatever it takes" in there, and that's the part I was objecting to.
In a democracy, the fact that office holders can't remain in office past the next election without pleasing the voters is a feedback mechanism to constrain them to do the voters' will, or at least act in a manner that the voters will, by the election, think was in their interest.
So acting to please the voters can not be a corrupt motivation, it's the motivation we WANT office holders to have.
So acting to please the voters can not be a corrupt motivation
If it cannot be a corrupt motivation, how is that different from "whatever it takes?"
Biden could please the voters by having Trump assassinated. According to you and Dershowitz, he couldn't be impeached for that.
No, Dershowitz would say that Biden could be impeached for murder. You are misreading him. Maybe not impeachment for being a quid pro quo, but impeachment for murder.
Ok so bribery and extortion are never impeachable, as long as it’s in the service of a reelection campaign, but murder is? Does that make any sense to you?
No, Dershowitz would not agree with that either. I believe that he wrote a whole book on the subject. You are being obtuse. Read his book if you really want to know.
You just said everyone agreed with this quote.
If a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment.
How is that different from what I said?
Bribery, extortion, and murder are not in the public interest.
I believe Dershowitz was addressing the issue of a President who acts in the public interest, but is accused of corruption by acting to improve his own popularity. If that is corruption, then just about anything is corruption.
He said "quid pro quo." That's bribery or extortion.
You have no idea what you're even saying, do you.
That's not what you people — and Dershowitz — were saying in 2019. Trump was extorting Ukraine to try to get them to announce that Biden was being investigated, and the claim was that this was not impeachable because he was doing it to get himself reelected, which was in the public interest.
Exposing corruption was in the public interest. Hunter Biden was soliciting bribes on behalf on his father. Joe Biden's personal culpability is debated. Exposing the Bidens could have the side effect of helping Trump's election, just as any good policy in the public interest could. Having that side effect cannot be the legitimate basis for impeachment.
I think Dershowitz wrote a book on this. Disagree with him all you want, but you are misrepresenting his opinions. The House Democrats disagreed, and impeached Trump for trying to expose the Biden corruption.
The notion of "evidence" still trips up a Schlafly. What a surprise.
More importantly, having the government of Ukraine issue a fake announcement of a non-existent investigation would not, of course, be "exposing corruption." If Trump had actually thought there was corruption — he knew there wasn't — he'd have ordered DOJ to investigate it. That's how our government works. Instead, he sent his personal attorney to Ukraine to pressure their government.
Exposing corruption was in the public interest.
Even accepting that arguendo (it's not true, as DMN pointed out already, but whatever), it was still extortion. So you (and Dershowitz) were and are saying that extortion (and bribery) is fine as long as it's done for the purpose of reelection. Right? That's what you just said anyway.
So why can't Biden say
Assassinating Trump was in the public interest.
under the same reasoning?
I realize that you're too stupid to follow this logic, Roger, so no need to reply with the same non-responsive response yet again. But do at least try to roll it around your tiny brain and see if you can grasp it.
I don’t see any, “whatever it takes” in there, and that’s the part I was objecting to.
I don't see any exceptions for illegal acts.
"something which he believes will help him get elected," can be anything. The "whatever it takes" is implied.
Brett 100% of the time reads between the lines to tell what his political enemies are "really" thinking and intending, but can never manage to do that for the people on his side. They can only be taken 100% literally, at face value, using the exact words they said and only those words.
And, just to be clear, I did not put "whatever it takes" in quotes, so I was not claiming that Dershowitz used that exact phrase.
Trump fans should stick to being fans, and stop pretending they are analytical supporters. Except for the few among them, like Blackman and Cannon, who are outlandishly ambitious. The others aren't actually capable of analysis.
Trumpism was always destined to become a cult for substandard reasoners, because Trump built it on that basis, on purpose. Trump spotted a large, substandard, plurality going to waste, and decided to leverage it to the max, to see how far he could push it.
Turns out it could get pushed pretty far. And then it became evident that if you added the outlandish ambition, and enough money, you might actually organize corrupt control of the nation.
Here we are. Now what?
Maybe the MAGAts just need to go outside, get some exercise, increase the blood flow to their brains a bit, and forget about their fake grievances for a while. Maybe August can be videogames-are-banned month, and millions of disaffected twentysomething guys can crawl up out of their moms’ basements and into the sunlight for the first time in their adult lives. Like the emergence of the cicadas, they can mate for the first time, thereby dissipating the impotent anger that Trump feeds off of.
Joe Biden resists demands he step aside. I began after the debate disaster in a frame of mind to join the demands. I still think a Biden candidacy is likely to turn out to be an own goal, with disastrous consequences for the nation.
But the course chosen by those demanding Biden’s surrender has given me pause. I do not understand confronting him with an open ended demand, in favor of . . . fill in the blank.
You might as well reason that anyone at all will prove a better candidate than Biden. That makes no sense. Harris would have less chance to win. Newsom would have less chance to win. Whitmer would have less chance to win.
Harris is loathed by mainstream Democrats, and the other two would be incapable to mobilize black urban voters in swing states. I conclude that at least some of the ditch-Biden energy is coming from partisans loyal to those likely losers, which I find a discouraging prospect.
What it would take to get me back on the ditch Biden program would be some sign of serious political analysis to figure out who a more effective candidate might be, and a move to mobilize support for any of those named alternatives. Given my sense of
Biden’s weakness, I would be willing to accept less-prominent, or more-surprising, alternatives, if there were at least some supporting theories about how they could do what the current favorite alternatives evidently cannot. My sense of emergency about Trump might lead me to back candidates distributed over a broad swath of the political spectrum, so long as they offer counters to Trump’s anti-institutionalist tendencies, malice, and insanity.
For instance, I would prefer Wes Moore of Maryland to Biden. He has youth, brief but real success and popularity as a governor, a military background including combat in Afghanistan (a captain in the 82nd airborne), and a Rhodes Scholarship on his resume. Moore is probably the potential candidate who looks the most like Obama. I think Obama could win easily if he were eligible to run, so I think Moore would be worth the risk. I would expect Moore’s policies to be close to the ones I usually prefer.
At the other policy extreme, I would be amenable to a candidate during this emergency whom I would never have considered otherwise. In all seriousness, I suggest Democrats might be wise to forget ideology altogether, and offer to pick Liz Cheney as their candidate. Cheney has shown herself a courageous leader, consistently principled, and an unyielding institutionalist. Compare those qualities to Trump’s. Cheney is an anti-Trump epitome.
I would vote for Cheney, knowing for certain that the only political good I could hope to get out of it would be Trump’s defeat, and a government put back on an institutional basis. That would be enough for me. More than enough.
Cheney has said she will do anything she can to block Trump’s re-election. It would be fascinating to explore whether that would extend to accepting the Democratic Party’s nomination for President.
As a political bonus, I think Democrats would at this political moment relish the chance to demonstrate national unity ahead of political partisanship, and vote for Cheney in that spirit. I think she would beat Trump. He would not dare get on a debate stage against her. She would make mincemeat of him on the campaign trail. And she would offer the added bonus, for women inclined to think that way, to be the first woman president.
Liz Cheney is mostly in favor of Trump policies. She just has a personal grudge against him. She would not get Democrat votes.
I do think there's some insight here as to why the left's anti-Trump efforts haven't been successful. The messaging to those to their right has largely been, "You'd better get on board with what we want to do, because the other guy is way too bad for you to possibly vote for." While that made a certain amount of sense in 2016, the fact of the matter is that lots of people are apparently quite willing to vote for the other guy.
If Donald Trump getting reelected is really an existential threat to the country, then everyone needs to makes some compromises and sacrifices to stop him. Conversely, if you're not even willing to retire at 82 to let someone with more mainstream appeal get in there, then it's hard to believe that you really think Trump's an existential threat.
Harris is and was the ultimate "affirmative action" pick. She is not is not smart, has no gravitas, and frequently speaks meaningless drivel. She has nowhere near the abilities of Mr. Newsom or Gov. Whitmer.
I wish that Ms. Cheney were a real possibility; she is courageous. I that case I'd agree with you Stephan.But that certainly will not happen
All true. I’m a Democrat who fervently hopes my party nominates neither Biden nor Harris. But, she is far more likely to keep Trump out of the White House than Biden is, and this year that’s a pretty big selling point.
"far more likely"
That is far from certain. And I would prefer a slow President Biden to Harris any day, this year or next.
Nothing is ever certain but that’s the way to bet.
What "abilities" does Newsom have? He has been and is the white affirmative action pick in the form of family connections.
He has managed (along with the legislature and courts) to turn the Golden State into the Golden Showers State.
What “abilities” does Newsom have?
Great hair.
I have no love for Harris either but I don't think affirmative action is quite right. I think he picked her to help him get certain votes and also because most really don't (or didn't) want her as POTUS.
Alito in Dobbs:
"The Constitution makes no reference
to abortion, and no such right is implicitly
protected by any constitutional provision,"
Alito wrote
Alito should have written this
about Article 2 :immunities or privileges”:
"The Constitution makes no reference to Presidential immunity, and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision,"
Nobody ever thought the Constitution had anything to do with abortion, until Roe v Wade. But Presidential immunity had been respected for 230 years.
A more important point is this.
No one asked the Court to reconsider its immunity precedents. No one asked the court to overrule Nixon v. Fitzgerald and Imbler v. Pachtman, the same way the court was asked to overrule Roe v. Wade and Baker v. Nelson.
With one exception, the Court never overrules its own precedents absent one of the parties asking it to.
Since neither Nixon v. Fitzgerald nor Imbler v. Pachtman spoke to the question of presidential criminal immunity, by what mechanism could they have been overruled?
“With one exception, the Court never overrules its own precedents absent one of the parties asking it to.”
I don’t know about that. In Trump v. Hawaii, 585 U.S. ___, 138 S.Ct. 2392, 2423 (2018), did any party ask SCOTUS to overrule Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214 (1944)? Chief Justice Roberts recognized that Korematsu had nothing to do with the case, but overruled it nonetheless.
In Mapp v. Ohio, 367 U.S. 643 (1961), the Court overruled Wolf v. Colorado, 338 U.S. 25 (1949), regarding the applicability of the exclusionary rule to the States, even though no party had asked it to do so. Id., at 646 n.3. Justice Harlan in dissent noted that “Counsel for appellant on oral argument, as in his brief, did not urge that Wolf be overruled. Indeed, when pressed by questioning from the bench whether he was not in fact urging us to overrule Wolf, counsel expressly disavowed any such purpose.” Id., at 674 n.6.
So there were two exceptions.
I don’t know whether the list is exhaustive. None of the opinions in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), discloses whether any party therein had asked that Minersville School District v. Gobitis, 310 U.S. 586 (1940), be overruled.
Wasn't Mapp the situation covered a few days ago here at the VC, where an amicus, not the defendant, asked for that remedy?
You seem to be forgetting that the Constitution also makes no reference to judicial immunity nor prosecutorial immunity, and yewt there is over a century of precedent recognizing both.
None of the parties asked the Supreme Court to overrule its immunity precedents.
Seriously, is there an Idiot Talking Point factory which produces these things faster than the assembly line workers can package them? There is no fucking judicial or prosecutorial immunity. There is no precedent recognizing either.
He’s probably confusing criminal immunity with Section 1983 civil immunity. Michael m’love, they are different concepts. Judges and prosecutors have occasionally been criminally prosecuted and sent to jail.
Yes, since Ejercito not one of our total trolls, I assume he's being sincere and actually believes that there is immunity, which means he is referring to civil immunity. And ordinarily I'd just correct the claim. Except that this exact claim has been corrected at least a dozen times here in the last week.
And of course not only is that civil rather than criminal immunity, but it's statutory rather than constitutional. (Nothing in any of the 1983 caselaw says that immunity is constitutionally required. It just claims that Congress meant it.)