The Volokh Conspiracy
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Some Takeaways from Today's Rahimi Second Amendment Opinions
A few practical thoughts for future cases (all bold emphasis added):
[1.] The Court solidly accepts (with only Justice Thomas dissenting) that "the Second Amendment permits the disarmament of individuals who pose a credible threat to the physical safety of others," at least after a judicial finding of such threat. That judicial finding can be in a civil case, and without proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
[2.] The majority opinion is likely to add force to arguments for the constitutionality of so-called "red flag" laws, which empower courts to order seizure of firearms from people when there is sufficient specific, articulable evidence that those people are dangerous (generally for mental-health-related reasons). Of course, much will depend on the details of the particular laws.
[3.] The decision, however, does not validate all restraining order statutes. Consider, for instance, California Code of Civil Procedure § 527.6; that statute authorizes "harassment restraining orders" based on "clear and convincing evidence" of "harassment," which includes not just "unlawful violence" or "a credible threat of violence," but also (emphasis added)
a knowing and willful course of conduct directed at a specific person that seriously alarms, annoys, or harasses the person, and that serves no legitimate purpose. The course of conduct must be that which would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress, and must actually cause substantial emotional distress to the petitioner.
{"Course of conduct" is a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose, including following or stalking an individual, making harassing telephone calls to an individual, or sending harassing correspondence to an individual by any means, including, but not limited to, the use of public or private mails, interoffice mail, facsimile, or email. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of "course of conduct."}
Courts have sometimes issued such harassment restraining orders based just on repeated online public criticism, or other offensive speech, with no findings of "credible threat to the physical safety of others." (See the recent post on Adams v. Gulley, California Judge Orders Removal of Reddit Criticism of Scientist/Consultant Who Publicly Criticized English Lucy Letby Murder Trial.) And California law categorically mandates that "The court shall order a person subject to a protective order issued pursuant to this section to relinquish any firearms" (as indeed happened in Adams v. Gulley). Such orders, issued in the absence of any finding of threat to physical safety, should remain challengeable under the Second Amendment.
[4.] The majority repeated Heller's statement that "prohibitions … on the possession of firearms by 'felons and the mentally ill'[] are 'presumptively lawful'"; Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence did the same, though Justice Thomas's dissent noted that this statement in Heller was "dictum." This suggests that the Court remains generally open to those restrictions, even though it turns out such restrictions actually lack a long historical pedigree.
At the same time, perhaps there is some room after Rahimi for this "presumpti[on]" to be rebutted with regard to people convicted of felonies that don't suggest a "credible threat to the physical safety of others," especially if those felonies are part of the well-post-Framing increase in the number of nonviolent crimes that are classified as felonies. A few courts have so concluded (to oversimplify slightly); U.S. v. Range (3d Cir. 2023) (en banc) is one example. I expect that the Court will send Range back to the Third Circuit for further consideration in light of Rahimi; we'll see what the Third Circuit judges say on remand.
[5.] The Court expressly declined to resolve whether the most relevant history is as of 1791 (when the Second Amendment was ratified) or 1868 (when the Fourteenth Amendment, which has been read as applying the Second Amendment to the states, was ratified):
We also recognized in Bruen the "ongoing scholarly debate on whether courts should primarily rely on the prevailing understanding of an individual right when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in 1868 when defining its scope (as well as the scope of the right against the Federal Government)." We explained that under the circumstances, resolving the dispute was unnecessary to decide the case. The same is true here.
This may be important for various questions, including whether limits on gun acquisition or possession by 18-to-20-year-olds are constitutional.
[* * *]
Some broader methodological takeaways:
[6.] The Court's six conservatives remain solidly committed to analyzing arms restrictions by considering pre-ratification and shortly post-ratification history, and not using balancing tests, "strict scrutiny," "intermediate scrutiny," or the like. Speculation that Justice Barrett was moving away from that approach, based on her Vidal v. Elster concurrence, was plausible at the time of that concurrence, but appears not to have been borne out. Justice Barrett's concurrence in Rahimi reaffirms her originalist approach; to the extent it notes differences from some of the other Justices, it has more to do with her skepticism of certain uses of "tradition" (as opposed to "original history," which she continues to endorse as "generally dispositive").
[7.] Five of the six conservatives (all but Justice Thomas) are willing to uphold restrictions that fit generally within a "regulatory tradition" going back to ratification, but that go beyond the specific details of those historical regulations:
[W]hen a challenged regulation does not precisely match its historical precursors, "it still may be analogous enough to pass constitutional muster." The law must comport with the principles underlying the Second Amendment, but it need not be a "dead ringer" or a "historical twin."
In particular, the majority pointed to
- "surety laws," under which "a magistrate could "oblig[e] those persons, [of] whom there is a probable ground to suspect of future misbehaviour, to stipulate with and to give full assurance … that such offence … shall not happen[,] by finding pledges or securities," coupled with
- "going armed" laws that imposed prison terms on people for "riding or going armed, with dangerous or unusual weapons, [to] terrify[] the good people of the land," which tended to lead "to actual violence." (As the Court held in Bruen, the "going armed" laws prohibited going armed in circumstances that created a clear threat of violence, and didn't ban "peaceable public carry.")
The majority concluded:
Taken together, the surety and going armed laws confirm what common sense suggests: When an individual poses a clear threat of physical violence to another, the threatening individual may be disarmed.
[* * *]
Finally, a couple of quick thoughts about the three liberal Justices' concurrences (though their views, as minority views on the Second Amendment, are less practically significant at this point) and about Justice Thomas's dissent (which is likewise less practically significant, as a dissent):
[8.] The liberal Justices continue to reject Bruen and possibly Heller as well, and prefer a "means-ends scrutiny" test (sometimes intermediate scrutiny, under which nearly all gun restrictions have been upheld, and sometimes strict scrutiny). Justice Jackson in particular argues that the Bruen historical approach should be rejected because it has proved unworkable in lower courts:
In my view, as this Court thinks of, and speaks about, history's relevance to the interpretation of constitutional provisions, we should be mindful that our common-law tradition of promoting clarity and consistency in the application of our precedent also has a lengthy pedigree. So when courts signal they are having trouble with one of our standards, we should pay attention.
[9.] Justice Thomas stresses (as Judge Ho did in his separate Fifth Circuit opinion) that:
This case is not about whether States can disarm people who threaten others. States have a ready mechanism for disarming anyone who uses a firearm to threaten physical violence: criminal prosecution. Most States, including Texas, classify aggravated assault as a felony, punishable by up to 20 years' imprisonment. Assuming C. M.'s allegations could be proved, Texas could have convicted and imprisoned Rahimi for every one of his alleged acts. Thus, the question before us is not whether Rahimi and others like him can be disarmed consistent with the Second Amendment. Instead, the question is whether the Government can strip the Second Amendment right of anyone subject to a protective order—even if he has never been accused or convicted of a crime….
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I think we can kiss goodbye at this point any hope that the prohibition of gun ownership by those convicted of domestic violence misdemeanors will be overturned any time soon. If 8 members of the court are ready to allow this civil right to be taken away based on a mere "finding", they're not going to be impressed by the difference between misdemeanors and felonies. At this point the only solid difference between a felony and misdemeanor, whether you can lose a civil liberty over it, is dead.
"The Court's six conservatives remain solidly committed to analyzing arms restrictions by considering pre-ratification and shortly post-ratification history, and not using balancing tests, "strict scrutiny," "intermediate scrutiny," or the like."
Or at least they're solidly committed to claiming that's what they're doing... I thought Thomas was very persuasive about the law in question not really passing the Bruen test.
"Taken together, the surety and going armed laws confirm what common sense suggests: When an individual poses a clear threat of physical violence to another, the threatening individual may be disarmed."
As Thomas pointed out, neither surety nor "going armed" laws actually disarmed anybody.
The Court said that temporary disarmament was okay. Lifetime prohibitions for domestic violence are inconsistent with the Rahimi opinion. I'm not saying that wife-beaters shouldn't be permanently disarmed, but the lifetime prohibition is inconsistent with the 2A right as defined by SCOTUS.
Sure, in theory. But I don't think you really get a Court that is 8-1 in favor of temporary disarmament on the basis of a 'finding' and yet 5-4 against permanent disarmament based on a conviction, even a misdemeanor one.
Maybe those poor souls who got caught up in it on the basis of guilty pleas back when all they were looking at was a fine will get some relief, but I doubt even that.
"Maybe those poor souls who got caught up in it on the basis of guilty pleas back when all they were looking at was a fine will get some relief, but I doubt even that."
Today's decision would not foreclose that. The Court did not address any procedural due process concerns. (Mr. Rahimi had consented to the antecedent Texas court restraining order and pleaded guilty to the § 922(g)(8) charge, reserving only his facial challenge for appeal.)
Neither does the decision preclude any as applied challenge to § 922(g)(8).
Yeah, I'm not talking about legal theory, here, but instead what an 8-1 decision like this says about where the Justices are coming from, mentally.
Literally telepathy.
Literally a douche statement by a douche.
Brett Bellmore - SCOTUS has not made any of its Second Amendment opinions retroactive. Those cases still in the pipeline might get lucky. The rest are SOL.
I think it'll be interesting to see what SCOTUS does with the post office gun case.
"Not so pleasing for the concealed carriers."
I hope you don't think concealed carry is in any danger anywhere it's allowed, or even the few jurisdictions that are still fighting tooth and nail against implementing shall issue will ban it.
Kazinski - It all depends upon whether or not the United States continues its descent into depraved degeneracy. If it does, then concealed carry is not in any danger until the point of no return is reached. When that happens, it won't matter to anyone but the few moral people left, and they will soon die off. Open Carry is noble. Concealed carry is for depraved degenerates.
90% of the time I carry it's open carry because the critters don't care.
But when I conceal carry, I'm around people and it's because some people just freak out and I want to be polite, and if I did get in a situation where I might need to use a gun I don't want to signal I'm the first one they should shoot, and I don't want to be a target for someone sucker punching me to steal my gun.
I'm happy being a depraved degenerate, I don't want people talking about how noble I was at my funeral.
Kazinski said, "I don’t want to be a target...I’m happy being a depraved degenerate..."
Nobody ever doubted that you are a cowardly, depraved degenerate. But thanks for admitting it.
re: "Concealed carry is for ..."
That's got to be one of the stupidest comments I've read. And considering the quality of some comments here, that's saying a lot. Your arguments about concealed carry are neither logical nor persuasive.
Rossami, can I call you Buttercup? My arguments against concealed carry are those made by Justice Scalia in the majority opinion he wrote for District of Columbia v. Heller. Both four-justice dissents agreed with the majority that concealed carry is not a right protected by the Second Amendment. Heller contained multiple citations to 19th-century high court opinions that said concealed carry is evil, vile, and vicious. One of the two cases Justice Scalia said perfectly captured the meaning of the Second Amendment, condemned concealed carriers for seeking secret advantage and unmanly assassination.
"Unmanly" was the polite word for homosexual at the time.
Fun fact: Concealed carry is a crime of moral turpitude in the State of California, as it was in every other state with the possible exception of Vermont.
And let us not forget that McDonald v. City of Chicago, NYSRPA v. Bruen, and US v. Rahimi all cited Heller's holding that the 19th-century prohibitions on concealed carry do not violate the Second Amendment.
Jackson said it best. This test is dumb and unworkable.
No, the test is entirely workable in the sense that a disinterested jurist could apply it without trouble. It's just that there aren't a lot of disinterested jurists out there, and it leads quite clearly to results most real world jurists, even on the Court, aren't prepared to accept.
So— the test cannot fail, it can only be failed?
Isn’t the fact that 8/9 Supremes and a bunch of lower court judges think the test yields unacceptable results and therefore apply the test incorrectly (according to you) evidence that the test, as you conceive of it, is unworkable?
Depends on what you mean by "fail"; I'm not asserting everybody would like the results; Obviously gun controllers wouldn't. I'm just asserting that it's capable of being followed by judges, if they were willing.
I mean, no? “Unworkable” doesn’t mean, “leads to bad results.”
Do you think the outcome the Court arrived to be dictated by the required historical analysis?
Because that is not the impression I ended up getting from the opinion; seemed to me whatever was going on in the main opinion could have as easily gone down the other way with some slightly different sourcing and judgement calls as to what was equivalent to what.
I am biased, though. Not against guns but in favor of firmer doctrine than Bruen. See also many Kennedy decisions.
Bruen is firm enough, the Justices weren't willing to follow it once they knew where it led.
But they were willing to pretend they were following it.
Yes, Brett, you have made it extremely clear that you think Bruen instantiates everything you, neither lawyer nor historian, believe, regardless of what the Court itself thinks Bruen says.
That’s why I wasn’t asking your opinion.
And DMN and I agree on the matter. So Noscitur is the interesting one.
"Yes, Brett, you have made it extremely clear that you think Bruen instantiates everything you, neither lawyer nor historian, believe, regardless of what the Court itself thinks Bruen says."
"The only member of the Court who agrees with you about what Bruen met is the guy who wrote it!" isn't the sick burn you imagine it to be, Sarcastr0.
The people who signed onto the opinion have less authority than the opinion author as to what it means?
What an insane new jurisprudence you are inventing.
Yes, damn it, the guy who wrote the opinion is a better authority on what it meant than the guys who just signed onto it, and then had second thoughts.
Opinions are a *consensus* exercise.
Those who sign on are not delegating any of their vote and authority to the person who writes the opinion. They are individually agreeing with what it says, not just signing it.
This may be your craziest legal take yet.
"Those who sign on are not delegating any of their vote and authority to the person who writes the opinion."
True, they retained the ability to change their minds. Even to change their minds and pretend they didn't!
I think that Bruen was right on the outcome (that the New York law was unconstitutional) and right on the reasons why, as far as it went. I think it left a lot unresolved as far as how to apply things. (I think this is probably the biggest failing the Supreme Court shows this day, it's just that this case is more politically sensitive. For instance, they did it in two cases yesterday and in the confrontation clause case today that no one is talking about because they're talking about this instead.)
The open questions under Bruen are, how close a fit does the historical analogue have to be? We know it doesn't have to be exact, but it does have to be closer than anything anyone could find to the New York law. That leaves a lot of room, and a lot of questions about what things look like.
There are a lot of ways you could have answered that question. I think this case offers a serious and satisfying resolution of that question, in a way that clarifies and expands on Bruen rather than contradicting or narrowing it.
Thanks. Thoughtful.
Justice Jackson didn't say it's unworkable. But, she did say it's anything but clear (leads to confusion) and SCOTUS is to blame.
“I mean, no? “Unworkable” doesn’t mean, “leads to bad results.”
But yes it does! If the results are so ridiculous that the test cannot be employed, it is definitonally unworkable.
The judges and Rahimi’s victim— among others— have to live in the actual real world. The law does actually contemplate this.
There's a huge gulf between "so contrary to the preferences of the average judge that he won't follow it" and "incapable of being followed". It's capable of being followed, they just don't want to.
It's not capable of being followed because history at that level of granularity is rarely a determinative exercise.
I find myself so often saying in reply to your comments, “What does that even mean?”.
Look, I get what you don’t like about Bruen: You like gun control. Bruen says “shall not be infringed” gets treated seriously, and you only get to have the sort of gun control that the people who ratified it thought was consistent with the 2nd amendment. And that’s hardly any gun control. Because they were treating it as an actual human right, not a privilege that gets called a right for some reason.
But you not liking Bruen doesn’t make it incapable of being followed. You, and a lot of judges, (And 8 Justices, damn it!) don’t WANT to follow it. If they wanted to, they could follow it quite easily, they’d just be telling you “No” most of the time.
Well, you won: 8 of the Justices don't want to tell you "No" that often. Congratulations. But you winning doesn't mean Bruen wasn't manageable, it just means the majority of the Court changed their minds, decided they didn't really mean it.
Look, I get what you don’t like about Bruen: You like gun control.
No, Brett. I believe there is an individual right to self defense that includes within it a right to keep and bear arms.
But thanks for your usual assumption of outcome oriented reasoning.
Which is, ironically, what your comment is full of. My issue is doctrine. You respond with ‘well it takes me where I want to go.’ Except you do none of the work, you just say it. Just like your take on what the 2A means is out of step with how all rights have been treated throughout the history of our republic.
You do this with the 2A - skip all history and precedent and analysis and everything else about what it actually means and go straight to the outcome you want.
You comment is utterly unresponsive to my point that Bruen is doctrinally muddy and not determinative because you get stuck in some telepathic bullshit about what I truly believe.
What precedent is Bruen, or Heller contrary to?
McDonald of course reversed previous incorporation precedent for the 2nd, but that was in line with incorporation doctrine of the rest of the bill of rights.
Bruen is a pretty different push from McDonald (or really Heller which lays out some kind of groundwork that may be expanded upon). It instantiates a particular method of interpretation as a legal test.
But while I don't love that, it's not really that extraordinary.
When I said my issue is doctrine, that's what I meant. Doctrine, as in what courts will use in the future based on this precedent.
In my opinion from what I've seen in reading these gun threads about lower court cases, Bruen, for most cases that will arise in federal appellate court, does not create a doctrine by which a court may reach a conclusion. And it does not lend itself to precedents that will build towards a coherent doctrine that will do so.
The only way to work Bruen is for the conclusion to come first.
And, in my opinion, what's on display in those lower courts is an aversion to actually following that doctrine.
It's not like they can just come out and say, "Screw the Supreme court, we're not following Bruen!"
But they can say they're following it, and then just go off and do what they want, instead. That's not going to get them sanctioned, just overturned.
Did you read the decision?
8 out of 9 said the test worked fine and that limited duration restraining order was a close enough analogue to historical practice of surety bonds.
From Gorsuch's opinion:
"But if reasonable minds can disagree whether §922(g)(8) is analogous to past practices originally understood to fall outside the Second Amendment’s scope, we at least agree that is the only
proper question a court may ask.
They just worked it, and got the result you want!
Did they work it, though, really?
1. Roberts leaned real hard on "common sense" to validate his reliance on a sort of cursory glimpse at tangentially related historical anecdotes.
2. The difference between Thomas's and Roberts's analysis is a subjective sense of what counts as "close enough." And really, Roberts's seems so open-ended as to allow anything to count. You just have to find some historical restriction that shares the same general purpose... of essentially "public safety." It's hard to imagine a gun control case where that won't be pretty straightforward for a motivated jurist to do.
My prediction is that Rahimi is only going to exacerbate the Bruen mess by taking Second Amendment jurisprudence even further away from any sort of objective principle.
The only fix will be to use the Egregiously Wrong Doctrine to pull the whole jumble out by its root: Heller.
I think that the opinion offers a very helpful and constructive way of thinking about historical analogues. I agree that it does offer room for judges who don't like the result to apply it incorrectly and unhelpfully. Hopefully the Supreme Court will police that sort of thing vigilantly.
They’ll have police it vigilantly, or you will have lower court judges claiming that disarming slaves and Indians not taxed is a close enough analogue to disarming blue city residents.
This is what stood out for me as an advocate for #OpenCarry. Not so pleasing for the concealed carriers.
“Like most rights,” though, “the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.” District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. 570, 626 (2008). In Heller, this Court held that the right applied to ordinary citizens within the home. Even as we did so, however, we recognized that the right was never thought to sweep indiscriminately. “From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.” Ibid. At the founding, the bearing of arms was subject to regulations ranging from rules about firearm storage to restrictions on gun use by drunken New Year’s Eve revelers. Act of Mar. 1, 1783, 1783 Mass. Acts and Laws ch.13, pp. 218–219; 5 Colonial Laws of New York ch. 1501, pp. 244–246 (1894). Some jurisdictions banned the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” 554 U. S., at 627 (citing 4 W. Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England 148–149 (1769)). Others forbade carrying concealed firearms. 554 U. S., at 626. US v. Rahimi, majority opinion, Slip Op. at page 6.
"Although Heller declined to “undertake an exhaustive historical analysis,” it recognized a few categories of traditional exceptions to the right. Id., at 626. For example, Heller indicated that: (i) “prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful”..." US v. Rahimi, Kavanaugh concurrence at 22.
This is what District of Columbia v. Heller said at page 626:
"Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e. g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e. g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884)..."
https://www.bitchute.com/video/sDqQIlTXzDtE/
I absolutely agree that, historically, it's a right to open carry. At the time the 2nd amendment was adopted, concealed carry was thought to be disreputable, the sort of thing criminals did.
But the Court seems to me to be inclined to allow states to prohibit open carry anyway, so long as they permit concealed carry, making it a right instead to some unspecified form of carry.
Brett Bellmore - If SCOTUS had intended that prohibitions on openly carrying loaded rifles, shotguns, and handguns were constitutional, a right that Heller clearly stated applied to the home and private property which Bruen held applied to public places (including densely populated places) then it would have clearly said so and overruled the Open Carry right defined in Heller. Instead of overruling Heller's approval of prohibitions on concealed carry at Heller 626, McDonald, Bruen, and Rahimi cited Heller at 626.
In Bruen, SCOTUS said it did not matter whether 1791 or 1868 was the defining date because when it came to bearing arms in public, the Second Amendment was the same. Pre-Bruen, both the 7th and DC Circuit Courts affirmed the Open Carry right. Post-Bruen, the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the right to openly carry rifles, shotguns, and handguns in public.
Heller noted that travelers were exempt from the 19th-century prohibitions on concealed carry (prior to 1868). But there is no general right to concealed carry.
Moreover, the State of New York did not, and does not, prohibit the Open Carry of loaded and unloaded long guns. A license to carry a handgun in public allows one to carry the handgun concealed. The license did not prohibit the Open Carry of handguns. Indeed, the same license is required for hunting and target shooting, which are two activities that cannot be conducted with a concealed handgun. After Bruen, New York Governor Horchul issued an edict that handguns must be carried concealed. New York law still does not prohibit the Open Carry of firearms. A bill to ban the Open Carry of long guns passed on the last day of the legislative session. Barring the governor calling for a special session, the bill is dead and will have to be refiled in the next session.
The only court to hold that Open Carry can be banned was a sharply divided Florida Supreme Court opinion in which the majority acknowledged that Heller said that concealed carry was not a right but explicitly rejected that holding.
The State of California has made mutually exclusive arguments on the right to Open Carry, both pre and post-Bruen. In the California Court of Appeals, the State argued (post-Bruen) that there is no right to carry handguns concealed. The Court of Appeals agreed and held that it is California's prohibition on Open Carry that violated the Second Amendment. Pre-Bruen, in Peruta v. San Diego/Richards v. Prieto (en banc), the State argued that Open Carry, not concealed carry, is the right. The en banc panel agreed that concealed carry is not a right and said if there is a right to bear arms in public, then the right is Open Carry. That en banc panel opinion is still binding in this circuit.
Baird v. Bonta, which is limited to Open Carry of handguns in the district court but argues for concealed carry as well in the Court of Appeals, is currently being briefed before the same panel that heard the preliminary injunction appeal (N.R. Smith, Lee, and VanDyke). The State argues that the burden of proof lies with the Plaintiff. Despite Judge VanDykes' open hostility to Baird's attorney during the PI oral argument, I doubt he or the other judges are going to hold that other than the burden of proof lies with the government. The district court judge in Baird referred to revolvers and handguns that can fire more than one round as "murder weapons." It is highly doubtful that any panel would affirm on those grounds.
And, of course, there is my California Open Carry lawsuit in which the final judgment of the district court was reversed in full and remanded back to the district court in September of 2022. The State's motion for summary judgment is due on July 24th (the district court judge does not allow cross motions).
A handgun Open Carry preliminary injunction appeal has been argued and is awaiting a decision in the 2nd CCA, so stay tuned. The fat lady has yet to sing.
And now every government can prevent and seize anyone's firearms just on the whim of an enemy that can convince a judge to issue a protective order with NO factfinding at all.
How a constitutional right can be disregarded? This is how. Government just not playing by the rules and inventing their own.
How do you figure? The statute they upheld requires specific fact finding, and that is a pretty important part of why they upheld it!
Ehh, yeah in theory, but not in practice. The court didn't rule on the portion of the statute that prohibits possession by someone subject to an order that "by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury;"
A judge may just, as a matter of course, put an order prohibiting the use of force in every temporary order of protection, and (ii) is triggered.
The opinion said "We need not decide whether regulation under Section 922(g)(8)(C)(ii) is also permissible."
They can say that all they want, but we all know how lower courts filled with Democrats are going to interpret it. Also, they'll ignore wholesale the provisions of the concurrences saying that the Bruen test is not a blank check for judicial policy weighing. The Democrat judges are still going to do that anyway.
"And now every government can prevent and seize anyone’s firearms just on the whim of an enemy that can convince a judge to issue a protective order with NO factfinding at all."
That does not describe what 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8) requires. It applies only where the restraining order was issued after a hearing of which the person restrained received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate. It applies only where the antecedent order includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury.
An ex parte order pending a hearing would not trigger § 922(g)(8).
I’m sure there are plenty of female judges out there that will find every screeching complaint from every female litigant to be “credible.”
I think that's the last comment of yours I'll be reading.
Do you deny that female judges, especially in the family space, tend to be very biased toward female litigants?
Do you have any empirical evidence to substantiate that claim? If not, I take your comment as worth the price I paid for it.
1. The court, when have with the logical calamitous conclusions from the crazed Bruen decision and its methodology, turned back from the precipice and saved a few lives in these United States.
2. They did so with as much face saving as was feasible.
3. Justice Thomas should be impeached, convicted, and removed from the Supreme Court.
You're an idiot. A big fucking idiot.
How is Bruen a crazed decision?
Because these stupid hacks either are stupid enough to believe the "collective right" theory, or they're intellectually dishonest enough to claim that, while knowing otherwise.
Your projection runneth over.
He isn't making a legal argument, he is making a worst possible case of fevered imagining results based argument.
Ever since Florida passed it's shall issue law, and nothing happened, the fevered imaginings have never been tempered by reality.
They never were tempered by reality, Florida turning out OK just made that obvious.
I think the biggest shortcoming of Bruen’s “history & tradition” requirement (which, as J Barrett noted, is itself a balancing test) is that it presumes the lack of an historical analog strongly suggests the unconstitutionality of the current restriction in question, as if everyone in the past just knew that trying some policy would offend the constitution . The lack of any history or tradition for a given law could just as easily be that the issue wasn’t a big issue in the past, or no one could think of what to do about it, or any of a thousand reasons…like, maybe, that domestic violence was viewed throughout the 18th and 19th centuries as just a natural part of romantic relationships, not just tolerated, but sometimes even encouraged by magistrates.
domestic violence was viewed throughout the 18th and 19th centuries as just a natural part of romantic relationships, not just tolerated, but sometimes even encouraged by magistrates.
And a good part of the 20th century as well.
As late as the 1960's spousal rape was not a crime in any state.
Domestic violence, far from being a crime, was sometimes considered a source of humor. So because of that people like Brett think Rahimi should have won - history and tradition, blah, blah, blah. Dumb idea.
Point very well taken.
If originalism concerns respecting the democratic ratification of constitutional text (citing Barrett) and the understanding of that time, the Fourteenth Amendment would logically be defined by how things were understood in 1868.
Alito in McDonald explained how there was some changing of understanding between 1791 and 1868.
Originalism is overly concerned with the original Constitution period. In passing, this is a good reason for a reasonable time requirement for ratification of an amendment (the 27A is a joker, I wouldn’t put much stock in it one way or another).
[I'm no fan of originalism overall. It's unfortunate so many justices now put so much stock in it. Kavanaugh doesn't really consistently rely on it. Roberts also. Alito cites it selectively. The others debate the details in their own styles. But, if we grant the premise, 1868 is the date, and the rules would somewhat different by doing it.]
If not for originalism, what is left? To just have judges make things up based on what they "feel" is right?
Originalism already has judges do what they "feel" is right.
Eric Segall wrote books on this. Others wrote a lot too.
Non-originalist judges -- and that includes a majority of the current Court -- use multiple techniques involving text, doctrine, structure, and so on to interpret the law.
They don't just "make shit up." To the extent judges do that, "originalists" do it too.
Exactly. Bruen hardly looks at the text. It's just, "whatever they did in the late 1700s is what it means." Or really, "it means whatever I want it to mean, and here's some cherry-picked historical examples to prove it."
Let's get back to the actual Constitution. They did take the time to write it down after all.
No, Bruen isn't, "whatever they did in the late 1700's is what it means".
It's, "The text means you can't have any gun laws AT ALL, but we're going to give you a pass for any gun laws that they tolerated in the late 1700's, anyway."
Which is basically what they did with the 1st amendment and libel. If you were going by the text, you couldn't have libel laws, but they'll allow them anyway because the same generation that adopted the 1st amendment was OK with them.
What part of the text says that?
If the text said "you can't have any gun laws at all," you'd be right.
But of course, that's not what it says.
In a healthy society, this decision would have been irrelevant. Because Rahimi, or anyone else found to be dangerous, would be locked up.
And that's what the Court should have ruled: "Of course you can take his Gus away, as soon as you've convicted him of a violent felony. If you think he's such a bad dude, why didn't you put him on trial???
Well, the counter argument would be that while he's awaiting trial, he'd be dangerous. But I'm supportive of detaining violent people until trial as well. If they're ultimately acquitted, the state needs to pay them damages.
Can still put on conditions for pre-trial release.
Almost any thinking person would concede Rahmi's guns are more dangerous than Trump's tweets.
Sure, but if you are saying "you can indict him in a non-adversarial grand jury proceeding, before a group that will indict a ham sandwich, and then the prosecution can have him disarmed as a condition of release", what right exactly are you protecting in the Rahimi situation? It's pure formalism.
Rahimi got MORE due process than your typical indictee. You don't get to even contest the prosecution before a grand jury. In a DVRO hearing you can put on evidence that you are innocent! It's a better protection for gun rights! (And also a better one for women.)
Exactly my position: Do what needs doing before the trial, and if it doesn't end up in a conviction, make them whole. The cost of doing so is just part of the cost of having a legal system, and ought to come from the general budget, not be imposed on people determined to be innocent.
The S.Ct. Spoke to exactly that, and “disarm before trial” is exactly that in the history-and-tradition analysis. From the opinion at 14-15:
Seems like a no-brainer concept to me.
TF? You think depriving someone of all liberty before they've been convicted is better than depriving them of some liberty?
"The state needs to pay them damages" is a REALLY important part of this formula, you know.
The problem with the misdemeanor aspect is that in 99% of domestic violence cases, women initiate the violence by hitting the man. He pushes back, and being bigger, she falls and gets hurt. He's then prosecuted by a liberal DA before a liberal female judge. He pleads guilty, and now his gun rights are gone forever?
Leaving aside that white men should be allowed to hit women and blacks when they get out of line, as determined by the man in his sole discretion, the law is unconstitutional.
Had to push the envelope over the mute line didn't you?
Never have I seen stronger divorced-she-took-the-kids energy around here.
*That* force is strong with this one.
Nope. But I am sympathetic to my friends who have had that happen to them. That's why I counsel my clients that the only sure fire way to know that a female judge won't screw you in a divorce is to make your wife disappears.
Murder is 100% justifiable when it's a man killing a spiteful ex-wife.
"Just asking for a friend..."
I guess. He was perfectly reasonable in the first paragraph; That really is what typically happens. Though I'd hardly assert that 99%, there IS a distinct tendency to just assume that in any physical conflict the guy absolutely had to be the aggressor. Even though the statistics show the numbers aren't all that one-sided. (See page 8.)
I had a female relative slip in the kitchen and end up with a knife in her rib cage. She had an incredibly hard time convincing the legal system her husband hadn't assaulted her, the assumption of the male aggressor is so strong.
Claiming that virtually all domestic violence is really the weaker partner’s fault, with zero evidence, is “perfectly reasonable?” Really?
Nobody cares Tiger Woods’ wife ruined his career by violently attacking him. Btw, he made her wealthy beyond her wildest imagination which doesn’t make his behavior correct…but it should entitle him to not being violently assaulted.
Her attempt to physically harm him was…not a good look, but “ruined his golf career”? I’ve long been a huge Tiger fan, but his own behavior (extracurricular and golf training) account for the lion’s share of his career fizzle, not Elin’s wielding a club like a baseball bat at his car. Also note, she was already wealthy as a model and nanny for another top-flight golfer—sure, the relationship turned up the $ to 11, but…seriously.
There's as much as evidence of that as there is that blacks are just as smart as whites.
Look, though I disagree with your policy preferences and legal analysis, i welcome it in the debate. But, how about not being so absurdly sexist and racist? And maybe holster the ad hominems and outright abusive personal attacks. If you’re going to make such a bold claim re: the “real” cause of domestic violence, how about adducing some actual evidence. Otherwise, it’s all just sound and fury, contributing precisely 0.0 to the discourse.
This is like saying to Carrot Top, "You know, I like your comedy, but maybe you could dye your hair brown?" That's the entire raison d'être.
Touché, my man
I'm mostly a troll and I post serious things once in a while. Why do you start from the assumption that I want to contribute anything to discourse?
Aaaand good riddance to you.
Via Peter Sagal (of WWDTM fame) on Bluesky:
Decision: Bruen was fine, but let’s not get crazy.
Gorsuch, Kavanagh: Bruen may be nuts, but originalism is good!
Kagan, Sotomayor: We done told you
Jackson: Look at the mess you made
Thomas: DIE UNHAPPY LOSERS
Good news for Hunter in Rahmi the court had one holding that should give him some hope in appealing his gun conviction:
"Finally, the Court rejects the Government’s contention that
Rahimi may be disarmed simply because he is not “responsible.” The
Court used this term in Heller and Bruen to describe the class of citizens who undoubtedly enjoy the Second Amendment right. Those decisions, however, did not define the term and said nothing about the
status of citizens who were not “responsible.”
Am I Hunter's only defender that thinks he was unconstitutionally convicted on his weapons charge?
How about, drunk people have no right to free speech?? Glug glug glug…hiccup!
How dry I am
Doesn't really make up from the way you keep smearing him as corrupt in order to also smear his father.
He's really proud of what a principled nonpartisan position this is - he can't stop bringing it up.
I'm just pointing out who his real friends are. You, and Joe, are willing to have him rot in jail just to assuage your gun phobia.
Don’t troll.
Or maybe you are that kind of wild asshole; I don't know.
I'm not trolling, I'm wondering why people who proport to be supportive of Hunter wouldn't want him to appeal what an unconstitutional restriction on Hunter's right to bear arms.
Under Bruen, and now Rahimi its clear that blanket restrictions on drug users are unconstitutional.
Here's Gorsuch almost screaming from the rooftops 'Hunter we got you!'
"Nor do we purport to approve in advance other laws denying firearms on a categorical basis to any group of persons a legislature happens to deem, as the government puts it, “not ‘responsible.’”
I guarantee he will be citing Rahimi in his appeal, In fact it will probably be in his pre-sentencing motion for dismissal.
Now I have to admit I will get some amusement seeing an appeals court citing Bruen when they vacate Hunters conviction to keep him out of jail. But I will also be happy for Hunter.
I don't think Joe Biden is going to 'let Hunter rot in jail' because he agrees with your take on what Bruen requires but hates guns too much.
What an asshole accusation to make.
Beyond you being indeed an wild asshole re: the President and his son, you have my position on guns or Bruen wrong.
Here’s Gorsuch almost screaming from the rooftops ‘Hunter we got you!’
Haha OK man.
See? The sincerity isn't even paper thin.
Clarence “Frogman” Thomas showing again why he’s my favorite Surpreme. Right to keep and arm bears was granted by Jay-hay, not some guy in a Black robe, did Adam have arms? Eve did too, time to replenish the Liberty Tree (not by me, like Maynard G Krebs I’m allergic to physical work)
Frank
A comment referenced something that I also thought about.
Thomas argued that if we want to defend ourselves from people like Rahimi, we could prosecute and put them in prison.
The BARD standard will to some extent provide defendants some protection there. Still, especially for some defendants, unequally treated in practice, that won't be a high bar.
The other approach is that the person still is out of prison (a big deal; just ask those who have been there) & you still have to (at least per the terms of this opinion) give the person due process before disarming them.
There certainly is a valid question about a federal law that criminalizes violations of a state domestic restraining order.
We need to can at least 3/4 of federal criminal law and only allow legitimate federal questions to be criminalized.
However I don't see a second amendment violation, since a state law doing the exact same thing wouldn't pose any problems.