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Second Amendment Roundup: Bump Stocks are not Machineguns
The Supreme Court’s Cargill ruling has broad implications.
The Supreme Court's 6-3 ruling in Garland v. Cargill was based purely on the statutory text. The National Firearms Act defines "machinegun" as "any weapon which shoots … automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger…." A bump stock is a device that allows a semiautomatic rifle to fire more rapidly by pulling the trigger and maintaining forward pressure on the handguard, which harnesses recoil to continue firing.
The opinion by Justice Clarence Thomas includes extensive technical information on how the internal parts of AR-15 rifles function, including diagrams and an animated graphic showing the movement of the parts. Firing a rifle with a bump stock still requires a separate function of the trigger for each shot, and it is not "automatic" because it will not fire without constant manual pressure on the handguard. The Court has never before ventured into such a detailed explanation about how a firearm works.
While the Court's discussion of how the trigger, sear, disconnector, and bolt interact in the firing sequence is quite technical, the decision embodies broader implications that are significant in other contexts.
First, it is settled once and for all that a semiautomatic is not a machinegun. That should be a no-brainer, but plaintiffs alleged that AR-15s are machineguns in the Las Vegas, Highland Park, and Mexico civil lawsuits. Here's what the Court said: "No one disputes that a semiautomatic rifle without a bump stock is not a machinegun because it fires only one shot per 'function of the trigger.'"
And dissenting, Justice Sonya Sotomayor agreed: "Semiautomatic weapons are not 'machineguns' under the statute. Take, for instance, an AR–15-style semiautomatic assault rifle. To rapidly fire an AR–15, a shooter must rapidly pull the trigger himself." While the term "assault rifle" is misplaced as applied to a semiautomatic, she correctly referred to "the military's standard-issue M16 assault rifle" as "the archetypal modern 'machinegun.'"
Second, Justice Sotomayor referred to AR-15s as "commonly available, semiautomatic rifles." Recall that the Court in Heller said that firearms "in common use" are protected by the Second Amendment. Some courts that have upheld "assault weapon" bans claiming that AR-15s are not in common use, even though tens of millions of Americans own them.
Third, Cargill was decided solely on the statutory text. No "divine right of deference" was accorded to ATF. Had it claimed deference, it would have raised the issue of which ATF to defer to? The Court notes: "On more than 10 separate occasions over several administrations, ATF consistently concluded that rifles equipped with bump stocks cannot 'automatically' fire more than one shot 'by a single function of the trigger.'" And any day now we'll learn if the Chevron deference ship will sink in Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo.
Fourth, the statute being clear, the Court had no need to decide whether the rule of lenity applied, although the majority of judges in the Fifth Circuit decision thought that it did. That avoided the issue in Wooden v. U.S., where Justice Gorsuch supported application of the rule that "penal laws should be construed strictly" if they are "ambiguous," while Justice Kavanaugh thought the rule should apply only if a law is "grievously ambiguous."
Fifth, the supposed purposes of a criminal law do not override its explicit text. Cargill states that a semiautomatic with a bump stock is not a machinegun, even though it allows the rifle to "achieve a high rate of fire." It adds: "A bump stock does not convert a semiautomatic rifle into a machinegun any more than a shooter with a lightning-fast trigger finger does."
Justice Sotomayor thought the "high rate of fire" to be significant, adding: "When I see a bird that walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck." Yet nothing in the definition of "machinegun" refers to the rate of fire. If a strange weapon is designed to fire automatically with a single function of the trigger, it would still be a machinegun even if it only fires one round per minute.
Sixth, the decision reinforces that any change in the criminal law should be made by Congress, not by administrative agencies. The Court states: "Senator Dianne Feinstein … warned that ATF lacked statutory authority to prohibit bump stocks, explaining that the proposed regulation 'hinge[d] on a dubious analysis' and that the 'gun lobby and manufacturers [would] have a field day with [ATF's] reasoning' in court."
That brings us to Justice Samuel Alito's concurrence, which stated: "There is a simple remedy for the disparate treatment of bump stocks and machineguns. Congress can amend the law—and perhaps would have done so already if ATF had stuck with its earlier interpretation. Now that the situation is clear, Congress can act." Since that will now be on the table, how Congress acts if it is inclined to do so really matters.
In 2017, I testified against S. 1916 (Sen. Feinstein) in the Senate Judiciary Committee. As I summarized in my written testimony:
The misnamed Automatic Gunfire Prevention Act would apply only to semiautomatics, not automatics. Its ban on any part that "functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semiautomatic rifle" essentially bans any semiautomatic rifle, as a mere trigger adjustment for accuracy will increase the rate of fire. Since semiautomatic rifles are commonly possessed for lawful purposes, this would violate the Second Amendment. The terms are vague in violation of due process, as a person has no way to know or measure what may increase the rate of fire. "Bump-fire device" is not defined. Ten years imprisonment is imposed for mere possession without a willfulness requirement. This would be an unprecedented ban lacking a grandfather clause or an amnesty for registration.
Congress did not act in part because the proposed bills would have criminalized millions of citizens who possessed ordinary semiautomatic rifles and who had nothing to do with bump stocks. I recall Senator Feinstein responding to me that her bill was drafted by "experts." Indeed so, as the bill would have gone much further than restricting bump stocks, and that was the sponsors' aim.
There is another fundamental problem lurking here. As I've discussed elsewhere, the National Firearms Act of 1934 did not ban machineguns, and instead was thought to be an exercise of the power of Congress to tax. In Sonzinski v. U.S. (1937), the Supreme Court held that the NFA "contains no regulation other than the mere registration provisions, which are obviously supportable as in aid of a revenue purpose. On its face it is only a taxing measure…."
However, in 1986 Congress enacted 18 USC § 922(o), which banned mere possession of machineguns not possessed by the date of enactment. Because it deviated from the rest of the Gun Control Act by including no element related to interstate or foreign commerce, judges in several circuits – albeit not a majority in any case -- would have held it to be unconstitutional.
One of those judges was now-Justice Alito. Dissenting in U.S. v. Rybar (3th Cir. 1996), he wrote:
Was United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995), a constitutional freak? Or did it signify that the Commerce Clause still imposes some meaningful limits on congressional power?
The statutory provision challenged in this case, the portion of 18 U.S.C. § 922(o) that generally prohibits the purely intrastate possession of a machine gun, is the closest extant relative of the statute struck down in Lopez, … which made it a federal offense knowingly to possess a firearm in a school zone. Both are criminal statutes that regulate the purely intrastate possession of firearms. Both statutes, departing from the mold of prior federal criminal statutes governing firearms possession, lack a jurisdictional element, that is, they do not require federal prosecutors to prove that the firearms were possessed in or affecting interstate commerce…. And in passing both statutes, Congress made no findings regarding the link between the intrastate activity regulated by these laws and interstate commerce…. That responsibility … requires us to invalidate the statutory provision at issue here in its present form.
It is no secret that many lower courts resisted Lopez, just as they later resisted Heller and Bruen. What enumerated power authorizes Congress to ban mere possession of a firearm? Before § 922(o) passed in 1986, ATF Director Stephen Higgins testified to the House Judiciary Committee that of the "118,000 [machineguns] that are registered in our files … I can count probably in less than my fingers, the number of cases in which those have been used in a crime or a crime of violence." Not exactly a substantial, adverse effect on interstate commerce.
But that's all water over the dam now. While the ban on new registered machineguns won't be revisited, bills must already be in the works to ban bump stocks. Will they allow the as many as 520,000 bump stocks (ATF's higher estimate) to be registered? And if they do, what percentage of owners would register them?
No doubt such bills will go much further than just to ban bump stocks. Senator Feinstein's S. 1916 certainly did – it would have banned getting a match trigger job that would make the trigger lighter, and thus able to fire faster. The sponsors may also include bans on what Justice Sotomayor called "commonly available, semiautomatic rifles" like the AR-15.
Whatever the future holds, Cargill sets a good omen that the Court won't be beholden to the administrative state and will follow Chief Justice Marshall's words: "It is emphatically the duty of the Judicial Department to say what the law is."
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Do you remember all of those times Stephen Halbrook lied to you? For example, he repeatedly stated before the decision in NYSRPA v. Bruen that New York had completely banned Open Carry even though the state did not have a law prohibiting the Open Carry of long guns and did not have a prohibition on openly carrying handguns provided that one had a license to carry the handgun in public.
Source, for the curious?
Uh, that would probably be a non-family-friendly picture. Are you trying to get Herr Nichols banned?
Kleppe, here is a pre-Bruen FedSoc video -> https://www.youtube.com/live/-E-_DY7V2wI
Compare it to this pre-Bruen article by Professor Leider, who clerked for Justice Scalia when District of Columbia v. Heller was published -> https://standinghisground.com/2022/03/23/the-right-to-bear-arms-openly-in-the-supreme-court-did-the-bruen-petitioners-err-by-seeking-only-a-new-york-concealed-carry-license/
After the Bruen opinion was published, New York Governor Hochul issued an edict that licensed handgun carriers can only carry their handguns concealed. Given that hunters and target shooters have the same license, I don’t see how either of those activities can be conducted with concealed handguns.
This year, the New York Senate passed a ban on the Open Carry of long guns on the last day of the legislative session. Unless the Governor calls a special session, the bill is dead -> https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2023/S9137/amendment/A
The dissent in Bruen highlighted that New York does not ban the Open Carry of long guns. In his concurrence in Bruen, Justice Alito said, "If we put together the dissent in this case and Justice Breyer’s Heller dissent, States and local governments would essentially be free to ban the possession of all handguns, and it is unclear whether its approach would impose any significant restrictions on laws regulating long guns."
"There is a simple remedy for the disparate treatment of
bump stocks and machineguns. Congress can amend the
law"
-- Justice Alito
As Strict Scrutiny Podcast noted in its most recent episode, you can't take that at face value.
The Court will be fine with "the administrative state" in many respects. As to "what the law is" YMMV
https://verdict.justia.com/2024/06/17/supreme-court-bump-stock-case-reveals-the-limits-of-statutory-interpretation
The courts are not the only body that has to determine what the law is. The executive has to apply the law without checking with the courts first. Legislatures also pass laws, after swearing/affirming to uphold the Constitution. In each case, they are given wide discretion.
To quote Alito again:
"There can be little doubt that the Congress that enacted 26 U. S. C.
§5845(b) would not have seen any material difference between a machinegun and a semiautomatic rifle equipped with a bump stock. But the statutory text is clear, and we must follow it"
Hey. If Congress can’t write laws properly, that’s not the court’s fault.
The OP seems to question Congress passing a more clearly written replacement.
Well, it is unlikely, in as much as most of the members of Congress who actually think banning bump stocks is important actually want much, much more than bump stocks banned. I doubt they'd ever be able to tolerate a "clean" bump stock ban.
People who don't start out seriously hostile to private gun ownership find bump stocks silly, not horrifying.
He also wasn't opining as to whether the 2nd Amendment allows Congress to enact 26 USC 5845.
"There is a simple remedy for the disparate treatment of bump stocks and machineguns. Congress can amend the law—and perhaps would have done so already if ATF had stuck with its earlier interpretation."
If the provision is unconstitutional, Congress could not constitutionally do that. It is a bit coy to say they "can" do it.
He's referring to the disparate treatment.
I agree with you that the Supreme Court is unlikely to find that machine guns are protected, but it's not for any principled reason.
It's for a principaled reason... The reason they virtually never find actual federal statutes unconstitutional: That's the chief qualification for their office!
So I guess he's not an originalist after all.
While it is true that Congress must pass laws and the executive must enforce them, it nevertheless remains that, as SCOTUS noted in Marbury, "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is."
Yes, courts interpret the law, including saying what the law is.
It's not too profound of a statement. Even courts in Great Britian, with parliamentary supremacy, will say what the law is.
Some people are under the impression that only the courts determine what the law is. Not true. Other branches have to determine what the law is.
The courts only get involved in a limited number of cases & some "political questions" are left to other branches. So, Congress gets to determine what "try" means in impeachments.
It was a profound statement in Marbury because it made clear that the courts were the final authority on what the law is. The executive enforces the law, and that may require interpretation, but the executive does not determine what the law is. That is exclusively the domain of the judiciary.
It is incorrect to say the courts get involved in a limited number of cases. That may be true for appellate courts, but not district courts where lawsuits begin. WRT political questions, this requires a determination by a court, and all such cases are dismissed, not just some of them.
You want an example of a substantial effect on interstate commerce? Try 500+ casualties inflicted by a single shooter on a crowd of music festival attendees vacationing in Las Vegas.
Alito is one of the two most corrupt justices in Supreme Court history. Thomas is the other. Together they are leading the way in support of a politically partisan, "Better arm seditionists," political campaign.
Halbrook cheers that on with tendentious assertions. Like this one, offered as if it were support for a pro-machine gun interpretation, instead of the opposite:
However, in 1986 Congress enacted 18 USC § 922(o), which banned mere possession of machineguns not possessed by the date of enactment. Because it deviated from the rest of the Gun Control Act by including no element related to interstate or foreign commerce, judges in several circuits – albeit not a majority in any case—would have held it to be unconstitutional.
To the extent you can twist that into an appearance of support for machine guns, blame it on Alito. But not so for Halbrook, who fails to distinguish a legal refutation from its opposite, even while the very words he writes literally refute the nonsensical conclusion he insists upon.
The correct conclusion? Machine guns manufactured since passage of the act Halbrook cited are banned for civilian use. That is the legitimate Constitutional end which should have governed this case, had not the Court ignored it in service of an ideological, partisan policy preference.
No, Halbrook. Elevation of the the corrupt Alito to the Supreme Court did not dignify as law his previous dissent. It instead undermined the legitimacy of the Supreme Court.
“Machine guns manufactured since passage of the act Halbrook cited are banned for civilian use. That is the legitimate Constitutional end which should have governed this case, had not the Court ignored it in service of an ideological, partisan policy preference.”
If you don’t understand what a machine gun is, as defined by statute (and it’s obvious that you do not), then you should keep your dumb takes about what legally constitutes a machine gun to yourself.
Your appeal to emotion and ignorance are both unpersuasive and laughable.
Cavanaugh, my dumb takes, emotion, and ignorance, somehow led me to believe that Constitutionally legitimate statutes define ends sought by policy. And that administrative decrees defined means to achieve those ends. What do your dumb takes, emotion and ignorance suppose?
Notwithstanding your refusal to acknowledge basic facts about a subject you've written numerous idiotic and incorrect diatribes on...
I believe that, when a statute defines a machine gun, that the definition actually has meaning under the law, and that 'desired policy outcomes' do not permit a statute's specific language and definitions to simply be ignored.
One of the two of us is correct as a matter of fact and law. The other is Stephen Lathrop.
Cavanaugh, tell me what you think about the Necessary and Proper clause, and the limits Chief Justice Marshall decided it imposed on the Court's jurisdiction to overturn legitimate laws passed by Congress. Are we supposed to find all that in the rubbish bin, alongside yesterday's left-over pizza scraps, and the Militia Clause?
As for, "specific language and definitions," where in the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 do you find the technical diagrams the Court relied upon in Cargill, purporting to define machinegun operation? What's wrong with reliance on the definitional text just as it appears? Too little gun pedantry in that for you? I get that you need the pedantry to create an illusion of ambiguity, but there is no real ambiguity there.
No one supposes purchasers of bump stocks do that for any reason except to circumvent laws against machineguns. The need for the device to achieve machinegun-like rates of fire proves the bump stock transforms a semi-automatic into a machinegun. Whatever performative claims to ambiguity there may have been, the change in ATF regulations laid to rest. That change did not bestow any power on the Court to require a still-legitimate law to be edited and re-passed.
Are you just doing a bit or are you really this dense? The court *did* rely on the definitional text, but in order to make a decision based on that you have to analyze whether a semiautomatic right equipped with a bump stock meets the definition of a machine gun, that's where the technical diagrams come in. The court rightly concluded it does not meet the definition.
Congress could've passed a law that said something along the lines of "It shall be unlawful to possess a machine gun — defined as a firearm that shoots more than one shot with a single press of the trigger — or parts designed to make a machine gun, or any weapon that has the same effect as a machine gun… the ATF shall have the power to issue regulations to enforce this section."
Assuming that the ban on machine guns itself survives Heller/Bruen — and it probably does — then this law would be upheld. Further, if ATF issued a regulation confirming that guns with bump stocks had the same effect as machine guns, that regulation would probably be upheld even if Chevron is tossed.
But that has nothing to do with this case. Congress enacted a specific statutory definition of machine gun. §5845 does not define machine gun in terms of rates of fire, or effects, or anything like that. So your rambling nonsense about that is irrelevant to the case. The question in this case is what the meaning of the statute is. And — to quote a case older than McCulloch — "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is."
To reiterate: this case is not about Congress's powers under the constitution. This case is not about whether a ban on bump stocks is constitutional. This case is about how to interpret § 2845, and the necessary and proper clause does not address the interpretation of § 2845 in any way.
P.S. "Circumventing" laws is entirely legitimate. Violating them is not.
Congress could’ve passed a law that said something along the lines of “It shall be unlawful to possess a machine gun — defined as a firearm that shoots more than one shot with a single press of the trigger — or parts designed to make a machine gun, or any weapon that has the same effect as a machine gun… the ATF shall have the power to issue regulations to enforce this section.
That is of course for all intents and purposes the law as it existed following the change the ATF made to the regulations, right up until Cargill was announced. It turns out that in light of the Las Vegas experience, the Executive got the intent of Congress right, after it made the regulation change, as demonstrated by no action by Congress to disagree.
Assuming that the ban on machine guns itself survives Heller/Bruen — and it probably does — then this law would be upheld.
Nope, SCOTUS just overturned what was effectually the very law you proposed. Overturned it with a partisan eye to satisfy right-wing gun policy demands, by the way. Which is why you can be certain that even a more formalistic legal rewrite in Congress would have got the same boot from SCOTUS.
I hope you can see after Bruen that this Court will not stand for any gun laws except those which match predetermined policy outcomes. If not, I would have to conclude you are a stupid observer of the Court, and I do not think that.
Also, I could have written at greater length, to try to anticipate nonsense such as gun pedants bring to this discussion. I could have anticipated or at least explain in advance the issues the gun pedants were sure to serve up. After giving that brief thought, I decided it would be a fools errand. Who can hope to anticipate endlessly resourceful gun pedants?
But just to satisfy you, Nieporent, or frustrate you, take your pick, I know better than you do what §5845 means and does not mean. Absent the change to ATF regulations, §5845 remained ambiguous, but ambiguous with good sense on one side, and nonsense among a selection of impossibilities on the other. The problem centers on the way bump stocks work.
Bump stocks include a design to stabilize the trigger finger of the shooter, which makes a puzzle out of the §5845 definition of one shot per trigger finger actuation. With a bump stock, a stabilized trigger finger actuates once, and multiple shots result until the trigger finger is released. Which is identical to what happens with a typical machine gun.
In either case, there are multiple ways to design mechanisms to make that single finger actuation use energy generated by the discharge of the gun load and fire successive rounds without additional trigger actuations by the shooter. The dissent seemed to get that right, without making, it perfectly clear.
The Court majority got it wrong, supposing somehow that if one of the many possible designs to activate automatic fire was routed through a stabilized and thus inactive trigger finger, that was a material difference in the mode of operation. It is not. In both cases, either purely mechanical means which bypass the trigger finger, or a combination of mechanical means plus an inactivated trigger finger used as a passive conduit for the energy necessary to achieve automatic fire, the result is the same: far higher rates of sustained fire than any volitional action by the shooter could achieve.
To anticipate just one gun pedant objection, there is an experiment you can do yourself. Get a stopwatch, and see how long it takes to activate it and stop it once. Few people can do that reliably in 3 tenths of a second. To sustain that rate for more than a few seconds is all but impossible. Check the math on how much time it would take to fire even 400 shots at that rate. Far more than a minute. Any gun pedant who tells you otherwise has never tried it himself, or is just estimating optimistically, or repeating an unreliable account, or just lying.
"Absent the change to ATF regulations, §5845 remained ambiguous,"
It's not even slightly ambiguous. "The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger."
When using a bump stock, the trigger must reset between shots, you only get one shot per function of the trigger. Literally the only thing the bump stock does is make it easier to pull the trigger repeatedly, by causing the gun to bounce back and forth between your shoulder and your finger on the trigger. Something you can accomplish simply by holding the gun loosely, with practice!
But it is utterly unambiguous that you're only getting one shot per function of the trigger.
No, it didn't. It didn't overturn any law. This case was about a regulation, not a law. You just don't even have the most basic understanding of legal procedure.
Not sure what your point is here. The statute does not define machine gun by rate of fire, so how fast a bump stock allows one to fire is irrelevant.
"Bump stocks include a design to stabilize the trigger finger of the shooter, which makes a puzzle out of the §5845 definition of one shot per trigger finger actuation."
Even more puzzling is your theory that the statute says anything about fingers.
As I've been saying to you for months on every 2A topic: you're fucking ignorant. Claiming you know the statute better than actual lawyers do is arrogantly absurd and demonstrably false by your repeated idiotic arguments that don't even get the text of the statute correct.
Lathrop has this convenient notion that one can’t understand the law related to a topic without understanding the underlying topic. It’s not that this is completely wrong, but it carries with it the utterly unwarranted assumption that people here don’t understand the underlying topics as well as he does.
But he has also adopted a bizarre corollary to this notion: that one can understand the law related to a topic only by understanding the underlying topic, without knowing the law.
Nieporent — Your second paragraph is mistaken. I have not said that, or reasoned that way. I have never said or implied that anyone can understand the law without knowing the law.
Your first paragraph is partly mistaken. You graciously explained correctly what I have said, until you generalized it to, "people." That misunderstands what I actually said, which has been confined to your advocacy specifically, in instances where I know I understand the underlying particular activities better than you do. For instance with regard to topics related to the publishing business, which I practiced with uniform success over multiple decades, and about which you show not even a glimmer of insight—except with regard to literal readings of often tangentially relevant legal texts.
So here again is what I do say. To know the law it is sufficient to know what the texts of the laws say, what the precedents are and how to research them, what the customs and procedures of the legal profession require, what judges are likely to decide on the basis of particular evidence, and no doubt other such topics which escape me because I do not know the law, and must defer to lawyers.
To understand the law, however is a different and larger task. To understand the law you must first know the law as described above, but you also must add to that insight into the activities the law purports to govern. That is a test renewed case-by-case, as the subject matter under consideration varies. Superb lawyers show breadth of insight and an accommodating temperament sufficient to meet that challenge. Most lawyers do not.
To those points I will add another that I have not previously touched on except in different context. It is a mistake to expect anyone without historical training can purport to understand the law pertaining to antique contexts, long-dead persons, and their activities.
No one drives exactly 65 miles an hour except to “circumvent” laws against driving 66.
Although there's one obvious exception to my comment about "circumventing" not being illegal: money laundering. One can't break one's transactions down into <$10,000 chunks to circumvent the reporting requirements.
Well thats because Congress passed a specific law making structuring illegal (the Money Laundering Control Act of 1986) in order to close that particular loophole in the Bank Secrecy Act of 1970. Between 1970 and 1986 it would have been perfectly legal to circumvent the law by breaking down your transactions.
Which just brings us back to Congress needing to pass a new law if they want to close this "loophole."
Yeah, that's wrong.
The interstate commerce clause did not authorize Congress to regulate the tides, the weather, and the rising of the sun, all of which have a major impact on interstate commerce. It affords Congress the authority to regulate actual commerce which crosses actual borders. NOT everything that effects such commerce. Everything beyond that is usurpation, though well entrenched at this point.
Halbrook asks, "What enumerated power authorizes Congress to ban mere possession of a firearm?"
Congress has no enumerated power to ban mere possession of ANYTHING. Period! Our federal drug laws started out as tax laws for that reason, too. But at this point you could count the members of Congress who genuinely care about the constitutional limits on their power on the fingers of one hand of a careless shop teacher.
However, you will not find a lot of Republican votes to ban bump stocks; The moral panic induced by that Las Vegas shooting has long since expired, and an election in which Republicans desperately need to avoid pissing off an important constituency impends. And the echo of that panic induced by this ruling will have died down by the time of the lame duck session.
To get even Democrats enthused about a bump stock ban it would have to be a major gun control initiative that just happened to also ban bump stocks, and I don't think Democrats have entirely forgotten what electoral poison gun control is in most of the country.
This has been another safari into BrettLaw. Keep your hands and feet inside the vehicle at all times.
"Congress has no enumerated power to ban mere possession of ANYTHING."
Not quite anything, but I hear your point. I think, under necessary and proper, they have the enumerated power to ban mere possession of materials that violate copyrights or patents, and they have the power to ban the possession of counterfeit currency.
Not much else though.
"I think, under necessary and proper, they have the enumerated power to ban mere possession of materials that violate copyrights or patents,"
Except they haven't done so.
Copyright law covers making copies and distributing copies but does not cover mere possession. Also copyright violations are primarily civil torts, not criminal.
The same goes for patents.
The DMCA bans mere possession of tools used primarily to circumvent copyrights.
More people are murdered with knives each year than bump-stock equipped rifles, or any rifles at all, for that matter. Where’s the legislation on knife control?
“The correct conclusion? Machine guns manufactured since passage of the act Halbrook cited are banned for civilian use. That is the legitimate Constitutional end which should have governed this case, had not the Court ignored it in service of an ideological, partisan policy preference.”
That is not one of the powers granted by the Constitution to Congress. Some that are, are the Taxing Power, and regulating Interstate Commerce. One of the helpful things that are taught in Con Law and Bar/Bri is that there are Power Granting clauses and Power Limiting clauses in the Constitution. For legislation to be Constitutional, it must first be grounded by a Power Granting clause, and then it can’t violate a Power Limiting clause. Moreover, it must be determined in advance which Power Granting power is being invoked, typically justified by Congressional findings.
Interestingly, the government has, to date, never made publicly available which of the shooter’s guns was used to shoot which victim, or even how many shots were shot from each gun and how many wounded or killed how many victims. He had a large arsenal of guns available, and shot a number of them. Most didn’t have bump stocks, which suggests that your 500 casualty figure for them is probably grossly over optimistic.
The problem with bumpstock equipped semiautomatic rifles is that they are fairly inaccurate. A skilled shooter with a light, competition, trigger can obtain almost comparable rate of firing, while being far more accurate (I.e. the inaccuracy from shooting a bumpstock equipped rifle is primarily attributable to the use of the bumpstock, and not the weapon itself).
The claim is that accuracy didn’t matter, because the shooter shot into a crowd. But that ignores the physics where the distance involved combined with the accuracy of the shots determines the probability of hitting someone. While the crowd was large, so was the distance. Which is to say, with the information publicly available, we don’t know if a bumpstock equipped rifle killed a single victim. It probably did, but, on the other hand, the number of those so killed or wounded is likely far below your 500 figure.
As stated before by others, the event in Las Vegas did not change the statute.
So you're okay subjugating the rights of tens of millions to avoid casualties.
To what extent does your logic hold? Are you supportive of subjugating black males in the interest of reducing crime? If not, why not?
Um, this case had nothing to do with the constitution. Your stupid misinterpretation of McCulloch does not and could not govern this case, so of course the Court "ignored" it. This case is solely about the correct interpretation of a particular statute.
"The correct conclusion? Machine guns manufactured since passage of the act Halbrook cited are banned for civilian use. That is the legitimate Constitutional end which should have governed this case, had not the Court ignored it in service of an ideological, partisan policy preference."
That only begs the question the Court was asked to resolve: Does a bump stock make a semiautomatic gun a machine gun?
look, steve, I know you're emotionally invested, but it comes down to just these few words: by a single function of the trigger
a bump stock relies on many functions of the trigger. all else is irrelevant. yet you're writing hundreds of pointless words
.
Just curious; was the second amendment mentioned at all?
It was not.
No, because the issue was one of statutory interpretation.
Jake Charles, a Second Amendment expert, has a different take on the case. For those who want that sort of thing. He's not just some easy-swiped away liberal.
Yes, he is.
As noted in the post, Cargill was never a 2A case. Nor should it have been -- it's fundamental that if you can decide a case based on statutory interpretation, you don't reach constitutional issues.
Nevertheless, despite the case never involving or addressing any Bruen analysis of the NFA or the Hughes Amendment, Alito's concurrence appears to preemptively bless any expansion of the NFA / Hughes Amendment under Bruen. Why he felt the need to do so is beyond me, especially given his prior Lopez commerce clause analysis.
Halbrook correctly points out that *as originally written,* the NFA's MG provisions could probably withstand Bruen scrutiny (all they require is registering and paying the tax on NFA-covered weapons). But how the Hughes Amendment (1986 law which closed the machinegun registry, and effectively banned civilian possession of any post-1986 MG's) withstands a Bruen challenge is not at all clear.
Civilian possession of MG's was totally unrestricted until 1934, and as long as you were willing to register and pay the tax you could still make and possess them until 1986. Indeed, you *can* still lawfully possess pre-1986 MG's that are on the registry, albeit the price of transferrable MG's today is stratospheric [e.g., over $40,000 for a select fire AR, whereas a newly manufactured version of the same weapon sells to LE/Mil for under $1,400].
Particularly given that in 1791, private citizens could (and did) own fully armed warships, finding a historical analogue for the Hughes Amendment is problematic at best.
In 1939, you had US v Miller, a carefully constructed test case after "The switch in time that saved Nine". The next time the Court deigned to take a 2nd amendment case, (And there were plenty of attempts!) wasn't until 2008, nearly 70 years later. For a whole lifetime, the Court refused certiori without comment to every last case where somebody brought up the 2nd amendment as an issue.
It was so bad that the NRA actually tried to sabotage the Heller case, because the people who'd brought it made a point of it being a 2nd amendment case, which was thought to guarantee that the Court would refuse to take it. Almost everybody was shocked when the Court didn't deny cert, and then ruled in Heller's favor. That was 2008.
Then you got McDonald in 2010 establishing that the 2nd amendment was incorporated, and the Court stopped taking cases again, for like 12 years.
So it's only been a couple of years that you could reasonably expect to get a test case on the 2nd amendment and machine guns to actually be taken up.
And then you're facing the fact that the Court is usually insanely deferential to Congress, so a challenge to the Hughes amendment faces not just "But, guns!", but also the huge hurdle of getting the Court to seriously evaluate the constitutionality of a FEDERAL law.
We've only got 6 votes on the Court, and the combination of "But, guns!" and "But, Federal!" could easily lose us two of them. Regardless of the legal merits.
Understood, and as I commented even Alito seems unwilling to even consider applying the Bruen test to the NFA. And from talking to people at FPC and other 2A think tanks, they correctly assess that there are much more important fish to fry (e.g., AWB's) before taking a swing at the Hughes Amendment.
We'll know a lot more in the near future when we see what SCOTUS does with Rahimi. (I'm predicting an opinion by Roberts that will say that an individualized, final judgment finding that a person is in fact dangerous can support prohibited person status, but mere conviction of any crime / entry of a DRO does not. They'll thus remand, and the lower court will find that the DRO was sufficient . . . but the logic of the opinion will let Hunter Biden and lots of other nonviolent offenders off the hook.)
But again, if you take the Bruen test as Justice Thomas stated it, I've never heard any reasoned theory of how the Hughes Amendment survives serious Bruen scrutiny.
"they correctly assess that there are much more important fish to fry (e.g., AWB’s) before taking a swing at the Hughes Amendment."
That's my conclusion: We spent many decades watching the 2nd amendment be eroded, and today's judges are unused to living in the country I was born in, where people were literally able to buy anti-tank guns mail order through ads in the backs of magazines. They may know as a matter of objective historical knowledge that the country used to be like that, but they aren't minimally comfortable with it.
It's going to be a long hard slog getting these rights back. We'll get back some increment of them, a while will pass without disaster, the judges will regain a bit of courage and follow the logic a bit further. Machine guns will be the last thing we get back, not the first.
And it's going to be a really hard slog, because soon we'll be dealing with judges who came from utterly and completely politicized law schools, we're coasting now on the generation who graduated before the left purged conservatives from most law school faculties.
The one thing NFA related I'm hopeful about are suppressors. Forget the 2nd amendment, a ban on suppressors simply doesn't survive even rational basis analysis, their being a safety/health accessory.
I hear you. It was not that long ago that public schools in NYC had riflery teams, and kids routinely carried (cased) rifles to and from school on the NYC subways. When I was in high school (late 1970's) in Texas, many of us routinely had shotguns and ammo in our cars / trucks on campus during hunting season. Heck, UT still had a shooting range on campus!
And back then drop in auto-sears (and other full-auto weapons) were dirt cheap and could be readily had, as long as you had a clean record and a friendly local police chief / sheriff / judge who'd sign off on the tax stamp application.
It's going to take a while, but the movement towards constitutional carry shows it is not impossible. A generation ago, it was one state. Now, a majority of states have it. Sure, it'll never happen in California, NY, NJ, etc., but once people see that allowing law abiding citizens to pack heat without a government permission slip doesn't lead to to the rivers of blood predicted by the usual Chicken Littles, the politicians take notice.
Getting suppressors off the NFA *should* be easy, but getting judges and politicians to abandon what they "know" suppressors do vs. what suppressors *actually* do is a daunting task.
I read Alito’s concurrence as giving Congress another opportunity to reform the NFA. I suspect he believes that a good start would be to repeal the Hughes Amendment, without which bump stocks wouldn’t exist.
si qua res ut anas appareat, ut anas natet, ut anas tetrinniat, nonne vere anas sit?
I wonder if Sotomayor knew she was quoting Joseph McCarthy?
Firing a rifle with a bump stock still requires a separate function of the trigger for each shot, and it is not "automatic" because it will not fire without constant manual pressure on the handguard.
Well, an automatic rifle will not fire continuously without constant manual pressure on the trigger.
Basically, the Court majority decided to parse the meaning of "separate function of the trigger" differently than the dissent did. The majority seems to have decided that they should look at how the trigger actually works in combination with other mechanisms in the gun. More simply, the majority was relying on the mechanics of the gun. The dissent thinks that the initial pull of the trigger by the shooter is one, separate function of the trigger, and thus the bump stock makes the weapon automatic because the shooter doesn't need to flex their trigger finger again. More shortly, the dissent was relying on what the shooter does.
Which is correct, from a textualist point of view? The definition of a machine gun is "any weapon which shoots … automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger…" as Halbrook quotes. Does this definition rely only on the design of the weapon? If so, then the majority would be correct. But can that definition be read as only about the design of the weapon? The weapon has to be operated by a person, so that "single function of the trigger" is the phrase that matters. The shooter has to pull the trigger for it to function at all. I don't think it is easy to dismiss the dissent's view here. The "function of the trigger" can be read to be the act of the shooter pulling it, since a trigger does not function without that happening.
It also should not be ignored that the whole point of a bump stock is to enable something close to fully automatic fire without having to go through the rigorous procedures to obtain a fully automatic rifle. I see the Court as saying, "Well, you did a good job of finding a loophole in the way the law was worded, so go on and continue what you were doing."
Jasont20
You are misreading the quote. To use a bump stock, you have to do two things: hold down the trigger and "maintain pressure on the foregrip" so that the trigger resets and is activated again, i.e., multiple trigger functions. In a fully automatic gun, you hold the trigger down so that it doesn't reset and doesn't need to be reactivated, i.e., a single trigger function.
A semiautomatic with or without a bump stock requires that the trigger reset before it fires again. Unlike sears and other devices which eliminate the requirement that the trigger reset before firing again, the bump stock doesn't affect the basic operation of the gun.
This basic understanding of the law and the functionality of bump stocks was abundantly clear for more than a decade as ATF repeatedly held that bump stocks were not machine guns. Prior to Las Vegas, no one thought that bump stocks were illegal.
“Well, you did a good job of finding a loophole in the way the law was worded, so go on and continue what you were doing.” And, your point? The executive doesn't get to rewrite the law. That is the sole province of Congress.
The statutory language is "single function of the trigger" -- not "single function of the shooter." The statute is thus defined by how the *firearm* is designed to operate.
And if you've ever used shot a bump stock (I have, and I think they are stupid), you'll know it's not *just* a single pull of the trigger. (Do that and you get exactly one shot.) It's the combination of a trigger pull AND forward pressure in the rest of the gun. More importantly, as Justice Thomas observed, you can do exactly the same thing by hooking the thumb of your trigger hand on a belt loop and firing from the hip -- bump firing is a technique of the shooter, not a function of the weapon. All a bump stock does is make that technique a bit easier.
Recall too that for years the AFT consistently had the same interpretation of 5845(b) as the majority . . . until under political pressure, it changed its mind. Hardly an example of legal reasoning.
Most fundamentally, if there is a "loophole" in a law as written --- whether its a law concerning widgets, taxes, bananas, or guns -- then it's up to *lawmakers* to fix it. That's just not the job of judges and bureaucrats in a republican system of government.
And if you’ve ever used shot a bump stock (I have, and I think they are stupid), you’ll know it’s not *just* a single pull of the trigger. (Do that and you get exactly one shot.) It’s the combination of a trigger pull AND forward pressure in the rest of the gun.
Okay, fair point. For those having trouble visualizing how a bump stock works, along with arguments on both sides of the issue, I found this video helpful. They feature the inventor of the bump stock prominently in the segment.
The inventor makes the point that if his invention violates the spirit of the 1986 ban on machine guns, then Congress should rewrite the law. Sounds good, then. Who here would support that?
Worse. Changing the ATF interpretation based on a Presidential order, and the like, suggests that the change was arbitrary and capricious. No Chevron deference, and probably a violation of the APA.
"Basically, the Court majority decided to parse the meaning of “separate function of the trigger” differently than the dissent did."
It bears reminding that even the Obama BATF didn't think the meaning of the statute was ambiguous. Seriously, the purported ambiguity here is purely imaginary.
I understand how one regulates the sale of a mechanical device based on how it works, I don’t see how one regulates the sale of a mechanical device based on how someone might go about using it.
One might think it reasonable to ban, say, civilian sale of electric chairs, but it would be insane to ban civilian sale of all seating devices and electrical equipment because someone might use it as an electric chair.
To put this in context, a Civil War Gatling gun fired about 900 rounds per minute. Yet, it has never been considered to be a machine gun.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2004-5-minigun-ruling/download#:~:text=The%20original%20Gatling%20Gun%20is,a%20weapon%20that%20fires%20automatically.
Congress wrote the law that it wrote in part to exempt Gatling guns for whatever reason. A manual equivalent of a machine gun isn't a machine gun.
Yup. And if you have the cash, you can get a 9mm Gatling gun that takes GLOCK mags:
https://tippmannordnance.com/gatling-gun/
ATF has long held it's not a machine gun (so long as you don't attach a motor to it and turn it into a Poor Man's Minigun).
Actually, don't even put a nut on the end of the crank, and have a battery powered nut driver handy. Constructive possession...
Congress wrote the law that it wrote in part to exempt Gatling guns for whatever reason.
Is that true? Congress wrote the law in 1986 to intentionally leave out Gatling guns? Or was it just that a hand-cranked Gatling gun was figured to be far more unwieldy and slower to use than a typical semi-auto rifle, so what would be the point?
"What would be the point" is a species of "intentionally", I think.
The people who wrote these laws were not, by today's standards, hard core gun controllers, and neither were they of the opinion that they had the legal power to do whatever they wanted. So they wrote laws that fell well short of what gun controllers today would have written, because they weren't TRYING to be comprehensive, and they understood themselves to be treading on questionable constitutional ground to begin with, so they were avoiding pushing the limits and prompting the courts to slap them down.
Congress wrote the law in *1934* to define MG’s in a fashion that excludes Gatling guns from the NFA. As BB observes, their objectives at the time were very different that what gun control advocates want today.
The Hughes Amendment (1986) simply closed the MG registry (i.e., absent having an SOT and jumping through all sorts of very difficult hoops, MG’s that were not in the registry as of 1986 can’t be possessed by civilians). Prior to that, if you wanted, say, to buy the parts and put together your own select fire AR, as long as you filled out all the paperwork, paid the tax, and had the tax stamp in hand before you started, you could legally do so.