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Journal of Free Speech Law: "Defamatory in Whose Eyes?," by Prof. Kenneth W. Simons
An article from the Defamation: Philosophical and Legal Perspectives symposium, sponsored by the Center for Legal Philosophy at UC Irvine.
The article is here; the abstract:
Defamation is a moral and legal wrong that is distinct from the wrongs of insulting or offending a person, lying to a person, or unjustifiably causing emotional distress. Defamation essentially involves harm or injury to a person's reputation. And reputation is a social concept: It refers to a person's standing in some relevant audience, i.e., the group or community beyond the speaker and the person.
But from whose perspective must a statement be defamatory? This question has multiple dimensions. Is our only interest whether the person's standing is lowered in the eyes of the community? Or should we also consider the perspective of the person who claims to have been defamed? Must that person subjectively view the statement as injuring his or her own reputation? Are we also interested in the perspective of the speaker?
The perspective of the person's group or community is undoubtedly critical, but this prompts additional questions. If only a minority, or even a very small portion, of the community would lower their opinion of the person, while the majority would not, is that sufficient? Moreover, are these further questions descriptive inquiries into how (most, some, or a few) people would react, or instead normative evaluations of how (most, some, or a few) people should react? Or is the most defensible analysis a hybrid or combination of descriptive and normative features?
One possible approach to these questions about the defamatory character of a statement asks whether the statement might cause a reasonable person to lower their esteem of the person. But the reasonable person test is inadequate: It obscures critical questions, including the relative weight we should give to descriptive rather than normative perspectives, to subcommunities as opposed to larger communities, or to the varying perspectives of the plaintiff, the speaker, and the relevant community.
The most plausible approach, I will argue, is a largely descriptive perspective that focuses on the actual reactions of both the plaintiff and the subcommunity with which the plaintiff identifies. Defamation law should reject a purely normative perspective that considers only whether members of the community would be justified in lowering their esteem of the plaintiff if the false statement were true. People frequently criticize and even ostracize others for flimsy, irrational, or illegitimate reasons. Yet the resulting reputational injuries are real, and the conduct that causes them is often highly unjustifiable. However, courts should recognize a narrow normative exception and should exclude liability when providing a defamation remedy would contravene a significant public policy, such as the legal principles condemning discrimination on the basis of race or sexual preference.
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I think there are some limitations on this approach. I think there is a concept of general society that has to come through. Nations and states are not merely collections of sub-societies.
To this end, reputation within a subgroup has to be compatible with general social norms. To give an extreme example, a professional police officer could sue for falsely being called a bad shot, but not a professional contract killer. In general, defamation does not protect ones reputation among people that society as a whole legitimately regards as disreputable.
Perhaps a concrete example would help. Consider the following lyrics from B-Rabbit’s dissing of Papa Doc in Eminem’s movie 8 Mile:
But I know something about you.
You went to Cranbrook. That’s a private school.
What’s the matter, dawg? You embarrassed?
This guy’s a gangster? His real name’s Clarence
And Clarence lives at home wih both parents.
And Clarence’s parents have a very good marriage.
Now these accusations are absolutely devastating to the reputation of a would-be gangster rap artist, so embarrassingly devastating that Papa Doc couldn’t think of anything to say in reply.
But would they be actionable if false? I don’t think so. Public policy favors education, intact marriages, intact families. Is it really the role of the law or of the civil courts to maintain the reputations of people who want to be looked at as rebels and criminals? I don’t think so.
I think that public policy – general society and its norms – has to have a role in what kinds of things can be considered defamatory and actionable in court.
I am uncomfortable with defamation lawsuits in general, they have a chilling effect on free speech. They also waste enormous resources and court time. There must be a better way to do this.
I can confidently say that E Jean Carroll did not actually suffer $88 million in actual damages because Trump called her “crazy”.
How would you propose society stop Trump from lying about and causing harm to Jean Carroll?
I'll answer your question with a question. How would you propose society stop people from lying about and insulting Donald Trump on a daily basis?
He can sue anyone he likes. In his case, it will be ill-advised, but he can do it.
If people are defaming Donald Trump, he should sue and win.
You should prepare for replacement, clinger. By your betters.
By my "betters"? That sounds pretty racist.
Artie is one of the few liberals around here who is honest about how he feels: he plainly states he thinks progressives are better than anyone who's not, and has no embarrassment for saying it.
The fact that reality is the opposite means nothing to him.
Suing for defamation, which he's done a fair amount and threatened a lot more of. But he's done very badly at that. Insulting Trump is of course protected by the First Amendment; proving defamation in court is not infrequently discussed in this very blog.
Yeah, he's done badly at that. He wasn't able to pick a sympathetic jury in the right venue, in a state that just changed the statute of limitations specifically to allow Carroll to sue Trump.
"Specifically"? Nonsense. Carroll filed her defamation suit in 2019, before New York changed its statute of limitations for adult sexual abuse.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/assessing-claims-york-changed-laws-163544798.html
You can say that because $65 million was punitive damages, and some of the other damages were for, you know, raping* her; other damages were for her getting fired as a columnist and lost revenue in book sales because of what Trump said; not to rule out yet other stuff.
* obligatory footnote about New York penile law.
She has more fame and fortune now than before she made her accusation, even when excluding the millions Trump owes her. So I'm not so sure she was defamed at all.
The original post says that defamation is damage to reputation, which does not necessarily equate with wealth or income.
She lost her columnist job in early 2020; I'm not aware that she has been hired back. That and lost income from her books, so it's not clear on the fortune part at all. Fame may be greater, but also millions of MAGA cultists hate her, so she may have less opportunity to benefit from that fame.
Rohan:
1. Libel is not 1A protected free speech.
2. If your worry is about chilling protected speech, then learn to be cautious about not publishing potentially libelous allegations until you understand the law better.
3. It is unwise to allow yourself to become a pro-defamation advocate.
Mr. Rohan appears to be a disaffected right-wing write-off. You can't reason with bigotry, superstition, or belligerent ignorance; it is pointless, perhaps even counterproductive, to try. Leave Mr. Rohan to his MAGA/QAanon delusions, his Trump rallies, and the time he has remaining before replacement of him and his stale, ugly, conservative thinking.
The biggest bigot on this blog is you, Arthur. The fact that you're too pig-headed to see that is actually a testament to it.
Do you understand what "chilling" means in the first amendment context?
(Hint: "being cautious about not publishing potentially libelous allegations" is chilling.)
Reconsider that Nieporent. Is it even slightly conceivable that whether defamation has delivered damage depends on a willingness of the perpetrator to admit he knew he did it? People who publish have a duty to understand the law of defamation well enough to know what it means. The question whether they know or do not know the law has nothing to do with the question whether their publication is false and damaging.
Understandably, pro-defamation advocates long to make it otherwise. Of course the internet has encouraged an upsurge of pro-defamation advocacy. You yourself are sailing under that flag when you assert there is no need for caution about defamation.
Here is a hint for you. The practical way to take maximal advantage of 1A protected expressive freedom is to learn to publish with confidence what you know to be true. Or to publish advisedly what you know is protected within the scope of NYT v. Sullivan. And to leave alone other potentially damaging questions of fact for which you do not have proof you can count on to be convincing in court.
So that's a "No, I don't understand what 'chilling' means in the first amendment context."
Nieporent, is it your impression that, "chilling," speech, whether false, defamatory, or otherwise, gets evaluated in court as an absolute? Is a law to permit civil punishment of defamatory falsehoods unconstitutional if it inflicts any chilling effect, or only if it inflicts too much chilling effect?
And nobody said otherwise. The actual damages were just $18 million. The rest were punitive damages.
Even $18 million was ludicrous when the whole episode gave her free publicity for her book. And tacking on another $70 million in punitives is just as ridiculous when Trump himself is insulted much worse on a daily basis.
Just for context, the courts found that George Floyd was murdered and his family only got $23 million. I just don't think E Jean Carroll's reputation is worth 4 times what another human being's life is worth.
These random awards/settlement numbers that are just plucked out of thin air are another reason there should be a better system for this.
Moreover, not all subsocieties get protected. Can a white supremacist claim defamation for being accused of having Negro blood? To give a (somewhat) more neutral example, suppose a Jewish Kohen has documentation tracing his lineage back to the Biblical priests in the days of the Temple in Jerusalem, and sues Palestinian activists who claim he specifically is a foreigner with no ties to the Biblical Land of Israel. What damages does this person have? The claim hurts the ability of this person or his descendents to serve in a future Jewish Temple and this may cause great personal distress and great damage and loss of respect within his religious circles. But is it a loss of reputation within general society? It doesn’t affect his ability to earn a livelihood.
I think the subsocieties concept makes some sense and has a place. For defaming members of a particular profession, you have to consider the point of view of people in the profession. But it strikes me as being far from a general rule.
For defaming members of a particular profession, you have to consider the point of view of people in the profession.
Why limit it to that? I would think the reputation among the professional's client/patient/customer base is as, if not more, important.
Let's say I spread rumors that Dr. X badly botched a surgery. Most surgeons would be skeptical that this reflects badly on the surgeon -- there are many reasons a surgery can go bad. But would-be patients, who are less educated about medical things, might think differently.
Think of a profession like engineering or technology, whose members aren’t usually engaged by the general public.
My point was simply to establish that the principle is limited, not to provide a comprehensive definition of its limitations.
Interesting. For whatever reason this got me thinking about the Flynn brother’s defamation suit that was mentioned here some weeks ago.
While I certainly view Q adherents as having some screws loose, that is obviously not a universal perspective. When you have one presidential candidate at least winking at Q beliefs on the campaign trail, can it really be said to be defamatory to be accused of association with that group? Especially if you frame their views as being merely slightly conspiratorial distrust of government.
On the other hand, if you define Q views as being that leading Democratic politicians are part of an international cabal of cannibalistic child molesters, maybe being falsely associated with such a movement would be defamatory.
WTF exactly is a "Q view"? Do you use that as a pejorative toward all conservatives / Trump supporters? Or as a subset? And if it's a subset, how large is it in comparison to conservatives / Trump supporters as a whole?
Flynn’s brother certainly viewed it as pejorative— to the tune of 70 million dollars!
I describe two possible views above. As for how many adherents, who can say?
Looks like Professor Simons has invented a competing theory of defamation law, with an eye to replace everything it will not hopelessly confuse.
You're slipping, Lathrop. You've posted two comments on a speech-related thread and didn't mention § 230 by name even once.
Mr. Volokh doesn't include a vile racial slur in every post, either. Does that mean he is "slipping?"
I began work on something along these lines many years ago and have thought of picking it up again as a retirement project. I was very much concerned with the informer cases, which I thought misguided and based on an unrealistic view of what people in our society. other than judges, really think. I began the piece with a scene from The Maltese Falcon, in which Sam Spade tells Brigid O'Shaughnessy not to be so sure he's as crooked as he's supposed to be. That kind of reputation brings in detective business and makes it easier to deal with the enemy. Many a legitimate enterprise is advanced by a somewhat seedy reputation, and people doing certain types of useful work can't have it going around that they are better people than they seem.
In the course of my research, I came across the meandering line of cases holding at various times that being called a communist was defamatory as a matter of law (during the Red Scare and the Cold War), or, as a matter of law, not defamatory (when our gallant Soviet ally was helping crush Hitler), to the more sensible view that it was a question of fact. And don't get me started on whether falsely calling someone gay is defamatory as a matter of law, as a matter of law not defamatory, or a question of fact.
I only skimmed the paper. I think it would be clearer to use traditional terms from defamation law: general and special damages, per se and per quod.
I found this very persuasive on the whole. However, I'm not sure about the public policy exception to the first standard (p. 783). The author's assumption seems to be that without a public policy exception, the process of overcoming societal prejudice may be slowed: "if defamation law awards a remedy because of the continuing reality of prejudice against [historically disadvantaged] groups, this might encourage such prejudice or at least slow progress towards reducing it."
I think the opposite is true. Defamation law imposes a cost on those who weaponize societal prejudice to injure particular persons. Removing that cost seems likely to increase the frequency of false statements trading on societal prejudice and thus slow the development of more enlightened norms.
As for the second standard, I wonder whether the " substantial portion of the community" qualifier is needed. That standard only applies to false statements intended to harm. If intent to harm is proven, why wouldn't damage to reputation in any community, no matter how small and obscure, be enough to establish liability?
I'd go with a negligence/intent standard..
If you KNEW, or reasonably should have known, that the people who mattered to the target would view him less favorably if they believed your statement to be true, then you are liable for intentional defamation. assuming you knew you were lying or otherwise sharing private information.
If you couldn't have possibly known what the people who mattered to the target would think, because their manner of thinking is so oddball, and you didn't know that your statements were false, but you DID know that 'neutral bystander' people drawn from the sort of people the author and the target had in common, would likely use the statements to view the target unfavorably, that would be negligent defamation if it turns out the statements were false, and you didn't do enough work to verify a good-faith belief in the statement's accuracy.
Krenn, what do you think about your posterity? Are you damaged today by a prospect that your child or grandchild, or someone who knew them, might in the future discover a false and defamatory publication about you, perhaps after your death? Would it make any difference to you now if people in the future would by then have come to believe it reasonable to conclude that your offspring were tainted, and thus justifiably deprived of liberties, privileges, or social status as a result of your heinous crime?
That would be an entirely different category of law, in which my posterity would get to sue someone.
currently a VERY undeveloped area of law. I nominate someone else to worry about it.
Krenn, reread the question. It was primarily about damage you suffer, because libel can affect your reputation in perpetuity. Hence, “Would it make any difference to you now . . .”
That has been part of the law of libel for a very long time. Published libel creates an enduring record, which can continue to do harm at any time. That is one of the principal distinctions which makes libel different than slander, and more damaging.
A related harm that a libel victim suffers is the fact that even published corrections cannot undue the record of the libel. There can be no guarantee that a person who encounters the original libel will also encounter the correction.
This question misunderstands the reason for Free Speech. We have Free Speech not because bad speech has some inherent goodness, but rather because no one can be trusted to be the arbitrator to decide the difference between good and bad speech. Better to let no one have that power, thereby letting the decision be made, to the extent it is made, by civil society. The people have the right, regardless of Free Speech to decide who they will listen to. (But no sentence should end with a preposition. But that is the kind of nonsense, up with which I will not put.)