The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
What Is "Sex"?
My new trade book On Sex and Gender, out today from Simon & Schuster, developed out of an academic project—first in the legal literature with Sex in Sport (2017) and Sex Neutrality (2021), then with scientists and policymakers in the medical research and sports spaces. This interdisciplinary collaboration allowed me a forest-through-the-trees view of three separate storylines from science, law, and progressive advocacy, all with the same basic theme: What is 'Sex'? In this post, I excerpt sections of the book that summarize these separate storylines and conclude with a reflection on how, taken together, they inform the current moment.
Note: In my first post I explained that I use the word sex in its biological sense. In this post I use gender not as a synonym for sex but rather consistent with one or more of the three ways it's otherwise defined: (1) The expectations others attach to us because of our sex, i.e., gender norms. (2) The ways we express ourselves that are coded as gendered, i.e., gender expression. (3) Our inner sense of our sex and/or gender, i.e., gender identity.
From Science
The following excerpt is from Chapter Five, Sex Just Is (Like Age):
Before the late 20th century, there wasn't a great deal of interest in—and so no real funding for—research into how males and females are different beyond the fundamentals of sex development. Work on human anatomy, physiology, function, and disease continued, of course, but on the male model.
This almost singular focus and the corresponding erasure of the female model was rationalized on the historically ironic grounds that we're alike enough that it's okay only to use males as research subjects—and to assume that the typical human is the average male. The fact that the menstrual cycle makes it more difficult to study the female body—and that it is certainly more expensive to study both and then contrast the two—helped to lock in this focus even as it was obviously inconsistent with the premise of sameness to take this position.
As a result, researchers did such famously inane things over the years as to study breast cancer—which primarily affects females and is tied to estrogen and progesterone production—using only male research subjects.
The seeds of change were planted in the early 1990s when the NIH began requiring that both sexes participate in human research. But this initial effort fell short because the NIH didn't require researchers to compare males and females, or to analyze enough participants of each sex to be able to establish whether there were differences in the ways male and female patients with the same condition present, or the effects of sex on the safety and efficacy of a drug or treatment regimen.
It wasn't until 2014 that the NIH required that all animal research consider sex as a biological variable. This led to an explosion in work directly comparing the two sexes to establish whether significant differences exist.
A major milestone along the way between the two NIH decisions was the publication of the report Exploring the Biological Contributions to Human Health: Does Sex Matter? (2001)…. Its "overarching conclusion" was simple: "Sex matters."
Among its key findings and recommendations are that: "Every cell has a sex" and so research on sex at the cellular level should be promoted; sex begins in the womb, and so sex differences should be studied "from womb to tomb" when necessary by "min[ing] cross-species information"; and to "ensure the integrity of sex differences research, [the report] strongly recommended that researchers clarify their use of the two terms [sex and gender]."
As I was drafting these posts, a prominent group of sex differences researchers wrote in Nature that "dropping" this work "would impede progress in a long-neglected area of biomedicine." I am grateful to the lead author, Art Arnold of UCLA, for his assistance last year as I was working on this part of Chapter Five.
Nature's editorial board has since announced a series on the topic titled Why it's essential to study sex and gender, even as tensions rise, concluding that "Where disagreements persist, our hope is that Nature's collection of opinion articles will equip researchers with the tools needed to help them persuade others that going back to assuming that male individuals represent everyone is no longer an option."
From Law
The law, meanwhile, has been busy with the mostly convergent (to science) task that is separating what's real about sex from the gendered inferences and artifacts that societies attached to us because of our sex. Although this hasn't gone uncontested—see my next post—the underlying idea is that sex itself isn't inherently problematic, including as a legal classification; rather, the ways we treat people because of their sex may be.
Entirely apart from developments in science and medicine, this work has taken down a lot of the structural sexism that historically served to box us in but that's been especially damaging for females (whatever their gender identity) who have been marginalized (e.g., in medicine) and subordinated (e.g., in law and society) on the basis of assumptions and expectations people have about us because of our sex.
These three short clips from Chapter Two of the book are out of order, but together they take us quickly to the present moment with a nod to how we got here. I'll say more about the legal history in my next post and in Chapter Seven.
The law has come a long way in the century and a half since the Bradwell [(1873)] decision. Huge strides have been made to ensure that this institution is working only with real (not manufactured) and immutable (biological) differences. The best evidence of the success of this effort is probably the Bostock [(2020)] decision.
[* * *]
Bostock affirmed that it was a violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964—which prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of sex—for a funeral home to fire a transgender woman simply because she was transgender since doing this required taking into account her (male) sex, which was irrelevant to the job. In reaching this result, which guarantees that transgender people have the same rights in the workplace as everyone else, the Court declined to re-define sex away from biology to include gender identity.
[* * *]
[Bostock's] effect was to strip from the law's idea of male, not the biology because that's always been the through-line, but the blind inferences and harmful artifacts that suggested it's somehow unnatural to have a nonconforming inner sense of oneself and a correspondingly desire to live a concordant external life. In its place, the Supreme Court left a more minimalist definition of male and of sex that stands in stark contrast to the ornate versions of the past.
From Progressive Academia and Advocacy
At the same time, progressive academia and advocacy have been busy on the mostly divergent (to science and law) project that is (1) treating all sex differences—even real and valuable ones—as 'myths and stereotypes,' (2) either growing gender to include gender identity or erasing gender role and gender expression so that it's only gender identity, and (3) treating the new gender, whichever it is, as synonymous with sex.
This can be confusing and so I do my best to explain it in detailed steps, with examples, in Chapter Three. But for now, I hope it works to say that these moves depend on both the tradition of using gender as a synonym for sex and our willingness to see the male-female binary as a social construct built from just a small sub-set of our sex characteristics that we can reconstruct to suit new agendas. Here's a clip on this last point:
[I]f sex was ever real it's not anymore because most of our sex characteristics are now alterable using drugs and surgical procedures. By taking birth control pills year-round, I can avoid ever having a menstrual cycle and thus this multifaceted aspect of being female. A male child can take blockers at the onset of puberty and estrogen thereafter to avoid physical masculinization and thus this multifaceted aspect of being male.
There's also gender affirming "top" and "bottom" surgery—breast augmentation, removal of the penis and testicles, construction of a neovagina. People of either sex can micro-dose with cross-sex hormones and have facial reconstruction surgery to curate an androgynous form.
Given that all of this is now possible, the argument is that only our chromosomes and our gender identities are actually fixed or immutable…. Then comes the coup de grace: for policy purposes, including for purposes of defining sex, of the two remaining sex characteristics—chromosomes and gender identity—the latter is most important.
The Forest Through the Trees
Stepping out of our disciplinary silos allows us to see these three temporally overlapping storylines together, to consider the significance of each project to its keepers, and to gain an apolitical, nonreligious understanding of why this moment is so culturally, politically, and legally explosive. Leaving aside for a moment the deep significance of sex and gender to our fellow citizens who are religious conservatives, among other things, it helps to explain why a whole lot of us who aren't religious or conservative are at profound odds with progressive academia and advocacy even as we may otherwise self-describe, as I do, as liberal or progressive.
It explains, for example, why Judith Butler's recent call for warring feminists to set aside their differences and ally against the right using the advocacy groups' template won't work. As I write in the book, our resistance "is almost never because we don't care about trans people, it's because we also care about sex."
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I know it was a while ago, in 10th grade Biology (California Pubic Screw-els)but I could swear that it was the “Sexual Chromosomes” that determined Sex. In College Biology we even had a Lab session where we drew each others blood, dropped colchicine to stop the cell division at Metaphase, some other Hocus Pocus, and looked under the Microscope to find all of the 47 Chromosomes. Normal Humans have 46? Well there’s Normal, and then there are us Superhuman XYY’s
and for all you "Believe the Science" numb skulls, it took years for Geneticists to even realize 46 was the correct number (in their defense reading Karyotypes is like reading entrails)
"In April 1956, Hereditas published the discovery by cytogeneticists Joe Hin Tjio and Albert Levan at Lund University in Sweden that the normal number of chromosomes in diploid human cells was 46—not 48, as had been believed for the preceding thirty years.[26] In the wake of the establishment of the normal number of human chromosomes, 47,XYY was the last of the common sex chromosome aneuploidies to be discovered, two years after the discoveries of 47,XXY,[ 45,X and 47,XXX in 1959. Even the much less common 48,XXYY had been discovered in 1960, a year before 47,XYY."
Frank
I could swear that it was the “Sexual Chromosomes” that determined Sex
“Determine” is not a good word to use in this context, as it can be used in three different senses :
(a) determine = define , ie what is it that establishes that this thing is male or female (ie gamete type)
(b) determine = cause or develop , ie what causes this thing to be male or female – what is the process of sexual differentiation ?
(c) determine = identify – lookee there under the bush ! Is that a male wabbit or a female wabbit ?
Those chromosomes and karotypes are part of (b). Not part of (a) which is solely a characteristic of phenotype. Though in practice chromosomes and karotype are a very accurate proxy for identification purposes, ie (c).
boys have a penis girls have a vagina (along with an automatically (save for external interference) expressed set of mental and physical characteristics) has worked since time immemorial and still works for 99.9% of cases. It says a lot about the level of intelligence the trans cult has brought us to that we’re suddenly having such a hard time with such a simple concept.
Quoting the existence of rare cases of intersex genitalia and chromosomes actually seriously undermines the trans case rather than supports it.
Most/almost all intersex chromosome arrangements default to one stereotyped specific sex.
Even if we determine that intersex is another category of sex beyond male/female the vast vast vast majority of ‘trans’ are not intersex which still defines sex into a set of objective boxes. A far cry from the subjective spectrum the trans cultists advocate for.
Its like claiming you can fly by jumping off a cliff and flapping your arms because airplanes exist.
'It says a lot about the level of intelligence the trans cult has brought us to that we’re suddenly having such a hard time with such a simple concept.'
Nobody is having a hard time with this. It's nothing to do with gender, sex, biology or science. It's a vulnerable minority, and the right decided to target them. Everything else is bullshit.
by ‘vulnerable minority’ do you mean the handful of sane people who aren’t going to be bullied into denying reality?
If you want to believe personally you can transform into a girl by clicking your heels three times and wishing very hard go right ahead. You are free to do so..freer to do so than many other things you should be free to do but people accept restrictions on.
Its when you try to impose this objectively wrong belief on others by punishing improper pronouns, brainwashing kids in school, and wasting taxpayer money on sex changes for hardened criminals that we have a problem.
'by ‘vulnerable minority’ do you mean the handful of sane people who aren’t going to be bullied into denying reality?'
Yes, I mean the trans people who you lot are trying to bully into denying the reality of their lives.
'Its when you try'
The tyrants with power whine of the tyranny of the powerless.
For someone insulting other people's intelligence this is a very confused argument.
Sex and gender are different things, just like intersex and transgender are different things.
But intersex proves the obvious, that biological sex (like everything else in biology) is more complicated than a clear male vs female division that works 100% of the time.
So if sex cannot be clearly defined in 100% of cases why would you assume gender identity, an even more poorly defined concept, would match biological sex (when it was clearly defined) in 100% of cases?
How pleasant it is to come across someone who writes clearly, even when they are wrong. So much less tiresome than those who clothe their mistakes in obfuscation.
But intersex proves the obvious, that biological sex (like everything else in biology) is more complicated than a clear male vs female division that works 100% of the time.
See my reply to Frank up top. What defines sex and how sex develops are different things. What defines sex is gamete type, and that is an absolutely 100% clear male vs female division. Male and female are the only two sexes out there, as there are only two types of gamete out there. A sperm is always spermy and an egg is always egg. There are no speggs or erms.
However these sexes have to be installed in organisms in the organism production process. As with any production line, errors can occur. Depending on the organism that has been ordered, the process is designed to instal either one of the two sexes, or both. But occasionally a production error can result in no sexes being successfully installed. Some organisms get no gamete production module fitted. But that is very rare - in humans maybe 1 in 100,000.
These rare no-sex humans do not throw the definition of sex into question, any more than no-eyes humans throw the definition of eyes into question. Nor does their no-sex condition throw their humanity into question. They are just very rare examples of humans in which no sex was installed during production.
The next stage in the production process is to install what are known as secondary sexual characteristics. These can be specific recognisably distinct organs like penises, uteruses etc. Or they can be sexual differentiation in common organs or structures - eg skeleton, musculature. These differetiations in secondary sexually differentiated equipment are tpically governed by the action of different hormones on genes that can be active in both male and fenale organisms. Hence there can be quite a lot of overlap. The tolerances for these secondary features are quite wide - unlike the tolerances for gamete type which are zero.
This is where we get to what the medics call "intersex" - ie production process errors in the installation of these secondaries that make secondaries that are in some respect outside the usual tolerances for the sex in question and within the tolerances of the other.
Strcitly these folk are not inter-sex, because their sex has already been defined by their gamete type. But it's a rough and ready description for females who look a bit like males, or vice versa.
And so on to gender after the jump.
See my reply to Frank up top. What defines sex and how sex develops are different things. What defines sex is gamete type, and that is an absolutely 100% clear male vs female division.
Ok then, but now you've taken Castor Semenya, along with a bunch of other athletes who won then-uncontroversial Olympic medalists and World Champions as women and redefined them as men. An identity they don't agree with, nor do the vast majority of people who know them. In fact, before modern medical science they likely would have lived their entire lives thinking they were women (albeit struck by infertility).
So while you have a very clear and simple definition it doesn't seem to work when applied to the very edge cases we're talking about.
As for gender and gender dysphoria. So you seem to agree that we don't understand gender identity well enough to understand what is going on. Alright, I think that's a good argument for putting the welfare of those individuals at the forefront. And in many (not all cases) that seems to include allowing them to transition as much as possible at some point.
An identity they don’t agree with
we don’t understand gender identity
No one gives a shit about your "identity". Identify as a ham sandwich for all I care. We are talking about factual sex determination.
Nah. Caster Semenya’s medals were always controversial. Lots of folk suspected that there were a couple of testes around, it was just that no one could insist on a detailed inspection (well within the medical technology of the time) because (a) privacy and (b) those weren’t the Olympic rules at the time (and still aren’t.)
So Caster’s case is a straightforward misidentification, there’s no scientific mystery. If the rules were that athletes presented themselves to a committee fully clothed and as made up as the wished, with no speaking required, then many more males could pass for females (and vice versa though that wouldn’t advantage them in the competition.)
It’s no more complicated than identifying birds. If you look at them a long way off up in the trees and get a view obstructed by leaves, it’s easy to get it wrong. If you look at them standing still on a branch ten feet away in good light, then it’s less easy to get it wrong.
The only complication with correctly identifying the sex of competitors for sports purposes is that to be sure you need to use techniques that are somewhat intrusive. Hunt the internal testes is not a game for amateurs. The Caster issue could have been resolved easily at the time, but hardly respecting “her” privacy. I’m not belatedly reassigning “her”, “she” was a guy all along, as was strongly suspected by many, on the basis of the visible evidence.
(Someone with CAIS is much less obviously male than Caster, because Caster obviously had little difficulty with androgen reception.)
An identity they don’t agree with, nor do the vast majority of people who know them. In fact, before modern medical science they likely would have lived their entire lives thinking they were women (albeit struck by infertility).
Sure. There’s lots of things we know now that we didn’t know in the past. Because …The Science.
For the avoidance of doubt I have not the smallest problem with Caster, or CAIS sufferers, or Caitlin Jenner trying to live their life as best they can, as close as they can get to a woman-like fashion. None of my business. And so long as they’re polite to me I’m happy to be polite to them and indulge their preference to be treated as if they were women, so far as reasonably possible. ("Reasonably" not including allowing males who have had the benefit of testosterone constructing their skeleton, musculature, lung capacity etc, competing in sports competitions for females.)
But in any kind of discussion about the scientific reality, I have to back the reality over the politesse. Caster is male and always was. It’s not an “edge” case, nor is it ambiguous. It’s just that correctly identifying the sex of people with significant DSDs is not always easy, particularly if you eschew methods that you regard as in poor taste, or invasive of privacy. Thusly with birds in the bush.
The definition of sex is indeed simple. it is also scientifically accurate. Let us not confuse scientific accuracy with our understandable desire to smooth, personally and socially, the rougher edges of some of the implications of scientific reality.
I am no longer 21. Or even 30. Or even 40. That’s a fact, if not a particularly welcome one. I am grateful that schoolchildren do not approach me chanting “You’re gonna die soon you old *&!?X&” even if that’s what they’re thinking. And if that’s what they’re thinking, they’d be right, at least in relative terms.
You clearly missed the really uncomfortable press conference from a South African minister talking about how their doctors had inspected her genitalia and confirmed her to be a woman. And of course, there are a lot of fairly masculine presenting women who are fully female in every sense of the word.
But anyway, so you declare Castor Semenya to be a man. To what purpose? Do you insist Castor uses male bathrooms and changing facilities? If so... that's kinda weird. If not... well the utility of your definition doesn't look so good.
Oh, and how do you deal with Klinefelter syndrome, XXY?
Genitals are excellent but not infallible proxies for gonads. Also if I was writing the rules I wouldn’t be having East German docs testing East German athletes for drugs.
As to “utility” I think I already covered that in my sentence in brackets above beginning “Reasonably”
What about Klinefelter’s ? What complication do you think it presents with either classification or “utility” ?
PS Don’t you think it is a bit weird, from a scientific point of view, to start trying to change the analysis of what sex is throughout the entire animal and plant kingdoms, because in one or two cases it results in some embarrassment about who gets to participate in sporting competitions ?
This is hardly the way to keep airplanes in the air.
PS Don’t you think it is a bit weird, from a scientific point of view, to start trying to change the analysis of what sex is throughout the entire animal and plant kingdoms, because in one or two cases it results in some embarrassment about who gets to participate in sporting competitions ?
I think it's a big weird, from a scientific point of view, to insist on a simple definition to use in every instance when you know there's a pile of special cases.
Half of science is learning things by digging into those special cases and you need a more nuanced definition of sex in order to investigate those cases!
For instance, your definition is XY vs XX, Klinefelter is XXY, so your 100% filter isn't actually 100% and Klinefelter is an interesting boundary case.
So what's the utility of your definition? It's not science because it's useless in the interesting cases, it's not policy because you're not trying to force Castor Semenya into a men's washroom, so what's the point?
Alas you have forgotten the definition I gave and have dredged up an imaginary one.
Karotype does not define your sex. Genes do not define your sex. Gamete type defines your sex. And there are no “boundary cases” – gamete types are strictly and digitally binary.
So unusual karotypes present no problems at all (definitionally) – XY, XXY, XXXY turn out to be just alternative ways you can make a male. XX works too in very unusual circumstances. Although anything other than XY tends to bring developmental abnormalities. Which is why Klinefelters has a name.
Ok so I got your definition slightly wrong. I suspect there's disorders out there that cause people not to produce gametes (or to produce ambiguous gametes) which would seem to be a problem with your definition, but that's not the core issue.
The real question remains, what possible problem does your definition solve? Sure it's possibly unambiguous, but that's by performing bad classifications. Your definition declares Castor Semenya a man, except you concede "he" should still be allowed to use women's washrooms and change facilities, so not useful from a policy perspective. And it's bizarre to think that scientists would jump on your definition in place of their current approaches.
There are certainly disorders - very rare ones - that can prevent you having any gonads at all, making you "no sex" as I mentioned above. I've never heard of anything by way of "ambiguous gametes" though, probably because sperm and egg are highly specialised cells made by different organs, so it's hard to see how an intermediate could be made. But hey nature might throw us that curved ball sometime. That there are just two gamete types and so just two sexes is not a Law of God, it's an experimental observation.
As to the question of the utility of "my" definition - ie the standard one - you have to remember that sex is a reproductive category. That is the function it evolved for. That it has some secondary manifestations - eg having fun, companionship and presenting yourself socially - can't always be expected to align perfectly with its evolved primary function - making babies.
So for a gay couple wanting to live as marriage partners as if they were man (ie male) and wife (ie female) there's a problem in getting the lifstyle to mirror a hetero relationship precisely. Because children of the union are impossible. The onlything they can practically mirror is an infertile hetero couple, which is an unfortunate minority of hetero couples.
To say that the evolved function of sex doesn't quite fit gay couples perfectly and so there must be something wrong with the idea that sex is about reproduction is nonsensical. Our feet did not evolve for kicking footballs, nevertheless they seem to be able to be turned to this auxiliary use with reasonable efficiency. But it makes no sense to complain that because no one can kick a 100 yard field goal, there's something wrong with the idea that our feet evolved to stand on and walk about on, on two legs. That is what they evolved for and if you can only kick 50 yard field goals you're going to have to get over it.
As for sports and bathrooms the issue is not with the definition of sex, but the reasons for segregating sporting competitions and bathrooms.
There's no difficulty in concluding, for example, that because males have an unfair advantage over females, because of long term exposure to testosterone, there should be a separate category of events reseved for women. But if it is represented, reasonably, there there are certain categories of males - such as CAIS folk - who get no advantage from testosterone, then there's no reason - subject to the practicality of testing, why the restricted category should not be extended to {women plus CAIS males.}
The purpose is to create a fair and interestingly competitive category for those who cannot compete in an "open" competition and if "women" is underinclusive of the group that ought to be protected then fine extend the group to fit the purpose of the protected category. Subject always to practicality.
I'm not sure your definition is "the standard one". I'd say the standard definition is typical XX v. XY with clear sex characteristics.
The moment you get into complications there is no standard definition.
As for your example with the gay couple... you forget about hetero couples who adopt, or who can conceive and choose not to have children. Your standard hetero couple ignores a pretty damn large fraction of hetero couples. The actual difference has more to do with the genders involved and the surrounding sub-cultures, but that's a much different discussion.
Either way, this is just circling and I can't see any real purpose for your simple definition other than the ability to state you have a simple definition.
The “purpose” is to describe reality, no more no less. We then have to fit our activities within the bounds set by reality.
It would obviously be convenient for calculation purposes if π were 3.2, but less so when all the bridges collapsed, and the airplanes fell out of the sky. Sometimes we just have to make do with the world as it is.
So if sex cannot be clearly defined in 100% of cases why would you assume gender identity, an even more poorly defined concept, would match biological sex (when it was clearly defined) in 100% of cases?
So sex can be clearly defined in 100% of cases. But "defined is not the same as "identified" - again see my reply to Frank. If you can't inspect the gametes or the gamete production module, your identification has to go by the secondaries, which are excellent proxies but not 100%.
So gender. Let us stipulate, though it is by no means settled, that one of the sexually differentiated secondary characteristics which is installed in the production process is an innate sense of "gender" - some sort of feeling that "I belong to that team." To the extent that your installed gender-sense convinces you that you belong to the male team, even though you have ovaries, that is just another error in the production process. You have a secondary that does not align with your primary (your gonads.) C'est la vie. Your sex is not in question any more than the sex of someone whose sexual orientation module orients them to pursue same sex opportunities.
Now "gender identity" is not, of course, so clear a concept as I stipulated up top, so there's quite a lot of invesigatiing and defining to be done to work out what, if anything, it is; how it develops, how malleable it is and so on. All fascinating stuff.
But we don't have to do that with sex. What sex is is perfectly clear and clearly defined. It has also been found to be utterly consistent across all anisogamous organisms. And since we also have isogamous organisms to study we can see what sort of difference anisogamy makes. And the answer is - quite a lot.
We also know quite a lot about what sort of errors creep in in the sex installation process, and in the subsequent installation of secondary sexually differentiated equipment. But by no means everything. The mystery of gender and gender dysphoria, strictly speaking, falls within that last category - the errors that creep in in the subsequent installation of secondary equipment. Though being a psychological matter, the extent to which "gender" is installed in the factory or just picked up along the way is another interesting area for study. As of course is the reliable identifiaction of, and treatment of, gender dysphoria.
That's a lot of words not to answer the question "What is Sex ?"
For those who would like to cut to the chase, sex is a reproductive category applicable to gametes in anisogamous species. There are two types - male and female. The concept is extended to organisms by reference to sex of the gametes the organism is constructed to make.
The dictionary definition :
"Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, by which most organisms are classified on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions."
is a little vaguer and wordier than it needs to be, as substituting "gamete type" for "reproductive organs and functions" is both briefer and clearer.
We have a number of reproductive organs but our sex is defined simply by gamete type. To the extent that secondary or derivative reproductive organs do not match the gamete type, what we have is a DSD, not a philosophical puzzle.
Think I have enough LM comment samples from previous posts in this series (3? 4?) to come to a preliminary conclusion. Prof. Coleman opens with a metaphor (emphasis added):
Metaphorically, LM answers that question with only a blinkered 'Sex' view of two forests: one Deciduous, immutably losing its leaves in the fall and regrowing them in the spring; the other Evergreen, immutably green all year long.
This view considers individual trees irrelevant or diseased, even though evergreens only appear green year-round by shedding their foliage on a different schedule from deciduous; and botany identifies a third type, Semi-Deciduous, losing old foliage as new growth begins (but LM sees them just as evergreens).
In other words, LM can't see the trees for the forest. Granted, there are others whose storylines really do not see the forest for the trees...but I've probably already extended this metaphor a little too far.
All that's why I earlier said I was looking forward to this series, as it sees both trees and forests, acknowledging a greater complexity (than some taking extreme, one-sided positions) with an increased nuance needed to address related issues in a way to enable the greatest good for the most people.
A tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
You're repeating yourself. That seems to be your go-to no matter the context of what you're replying to. Neither of us are idiots, and I'm not a fury-full or particularly loud kinda guy. So, to what specific instance of sound and fury are you referring? And what compels you reply to nothing of significance, even with a cliché?
As neither the best nor worst—mostly hanging out the moderate center just trying to hold things together while the worst full of passionate intensity rage through the comments in fierce competition to see who can be most insulting to a knowledgeable, mostly moderate professor—guess I can reply to you with another thing everybody already knows but is at least relevant to the comment I'm replying to...
I had used up “that’s a lot of words not to answer the “question” already.
I don’t think Shakespeare was insisting on a lot of sound and fury per se, just a lot of drama (in the theatrical sense) of no significance. As if one has sat through 3 hours of prancing about and yakking to discover that there’s no there there.
Professor Coleman : “As I write in the book, our resistance “is almost never because we don’t care about trans people, it’s because we also care about sex.”
The pofessor doesn’t know her own audience. The reason trans people have been picked as a target is because they’re one of the last options left. Used to be the Right could loathe blacks, sneer at women, despise Jews and hate Gays. They could do so openly, passing their contempt around as a team-building tribal experience.
Now all that is lost to nostalgia. But with the minuscule number of people who are trans? There the Right experiences a heady blast of good times from the past. They can openly loathe. They can openly despise. They feel most people are still with them as before. It can be a public celebration of hate.
And that’s where the hundred upon hundreds of laws targeting trans people came from.
Not that lost. What else is anti-wokism and the hysteria over DEI about?
Bingo. Still plenty of gay-bashers left in America and elsewhere. Most of it is tied to superstition, although conservativism is still in the mix with respect to that form of bigotry.
It’s the other way around. After the Obergefell decision, gay rights activists had everything they ever asked for. So where to go from here? Political activists wanted to keep “the struggle” and the “Stonewall movement” alive, but that was all lost to nostalgia.
So they had to change course and demand privileges no sane person had ever demanded before: the “right” of males to use female locker rooms, play on female sports teams, even being housed in female prisons, even without prior surgery, HRT, or even a doctor’s diagnosis. The new orthodoxy demanded acceptance of self-identification, no questions asked. That was so far off the original equal rights track that the ultra-feminists, even ones who were openly lesbian, jumped ship.
'So they had to change course and demand privileges no sane person had ever demanded before:'
Everything you list had been in practice *before* the recent effort at an anti-trans pogrom. There was nothing new about any of it, other than the shift in focus of right-wing fear and loathing.
That's right. Trans issues are now prominent because they are being pushed by the Left. Those right-wing laws are just an attempt to return to common sense.
Bigotry is common sense? What is wrong with you?
Your parents must have been losers, because you plainly are a son of a bitch. An especially objectionable bitch.
Internet tough guy as usual, and who's the rube now? the father contributes 1/2 to someones SOB-ness. You call someones mom that word where I come from and you'll be pickin chicklets
If the mother's a bitch, being a son of a bitch has nothing to do with the father.
I'm not so sure I agree 100% with your policework there, Revolting. Now you're talking about Virgin births? who's the Superstitious one now?
Frank
Like getting gay people back in the closet.
That's what the Volokh Conspiracy hopes to arrange.
While you prefer to get them in the rear exit
Are you equating being homosexual with being transgender? These are not the same thing.
Yeah right, most men getting their dicks cut off, fake gash, and taking Estrogen are raging Heteros.
Don't be stupid Frank.
While you were studying chromosomes I was learning logic.
"All A are B" does not imply, "All B are A," which is what Rohan is trying to sneak by, and you are defending. (Actually, I learned this fairly early in my education. When did you get on to chromosomes?)
ISTR you went to Auburn. Is that right?
Excellent mind reading!
We can see from comments about Justice Thomas here that racism is still alive on the left.
The end of every day, and I haven't heard that Clarence "Frogman" has passed, I smile about how pissed Julianne Malveaux must be.
Frank
The pofessor doesn’t know her own audience. The reason trans people have been picked as a target is because they’re one of the last options left. Used to be the Right could loathe blacks, sneer at women, despise Jews and hate Gays. They could do so openly, passing their contempt around as a team-building tribal experience.
Plenty of idiots left for people to loathe. Like you, for this drivel.
The reason trans people have been picked as a target is because they’re one of the last options left.
I do agree that there are those who simply want to identify a group to hate.
But I don't agree with the sentence I quoted. There will always be another option, or else the haters will circle back though the previous targets.
Used to be the Right could loathe blacks, sneer at women, despise Jews and hate Gays.
Not to mention Hispanics.
And before that Chinese, Italians, Irish, whoever. But those bigotries became unacceptable, at least in public, and among the so-called "elite" classes. You didn't want your kid home from college telling you you were an asshole because you made some remark about women being bad drivers or something.
Ruth Bader Ginsburg, in an era when only "men" and "women" were spoken of, deliberately used the word "gender" instead of "sex" because she noticed how many men, even 65-year-old judges, tended to turn into giggling adolescents when "sex" was mentioned.
"What is "sex"?"
I know it when I have it (h/t Potter Stewart).
(I'm more inclined to smirking than giggling.)
"deliberately used the word “gender” instead of “sex”"
Yes, gender was coined because of the double meaning of "sex", the act and the male/female division.
Some people use gender to be synonymous with sex. Others use gender to mean a chosen gender identity or one of the three definitions given above. By now, the term gender is hopelessly confused.
"Others use gender to mean a chosen gender identity or one of the three definitions given above."
But those uses came later, much much later. 500 years later.
"The Oxford English Dictionary's earliest record of using the word to specifically refer to men or women, though, did not occur until 1474, when someone used it in a letter to describe what the writer refers to as the masculine gender."
"In 1955, the controversial and innovative sexologist John Money first used the term “gender” in a way that we all now take for granted: to describe a human characteristic."
"controversial and innovative sexologist John Money" -- Read more about that guy, and you will be against everything he favored.
gender was coined because of the double meaning of “sex”, the act and the male/female division.
Huh?
My understanding is that "gender" used to be simply a grammatical term.
Lots of languages - most of the ones we are more or less familiar with - assign a gender to nouns and pronouns, hence often adjectives as well. German, like Latin, even sports a third gender - neuter.
While all this probably derived from Latin, note that Hebrew and ancient Greek are also gendered as was the older (I think) Ugaritic. I have no idea where the whole thing started, but it was obviously a long time ago.
As I understand it, these classifications are largely arbitrary, and don't have much to do with any characteristic of the thing named.
English has some gendered nouns - uncle, sister, priestess, but unlike truly gendered languages, that is rare. We do used gendered pronouns - he, she, her, him, etc.,
(h/t Wiki and misc other sites.)
Maybe the Trannies are onto something,
“Prostate” in German is a feminine noun…
and "Ovary" is Masculine.
Of course, if you've met many Hausfraus the last one
makes sense
Frank
Quoting myself:
As I understand it, these classifications are largely arbitrary, and don’t have much to do with any characteristic of the thing named.
Good examples, Frank. Appreciate your help.
https://www.noslangues-ourlanguages.gc.ca/en/blogue-blog/evolution-of-gender-in-english-eng
This is a reasonably clear and brief summary.
Basically English was inflected and full of genders when it was really German. Then when the Normans arrived speaking their version of French there were changes, graaaaduuuallly.
The Normans started to learn English – provincial barons first because they were dealing with the local Anglo-Saxons, the Royal Court last because they were dealing with other Normans. (I think the first English King to use English rather than Norman-French as his first language was about 400 years after the Norman Conquest.)
And basically if you need to communcate with your rulers, whose command of English is weak, you simplify. So over time all the complicated bits like inflection and gender were ditched.
What remains of gender in English are the very common words used in the household – like Uncle and her.
Same idea for those splendid irregular verbs. The irregularity survives only in the most common everyday verbs. All non everyday verbs are regular.
In my long experience, women are exactly as likely as men to act immaturely at the mention of the word "sex" in a serious context. Just as much giggling, smirking, and shooting looks, slightly less likely to speak up with a joke, but more likely to respond positively to someone who does. Ginsburg's experiences may have been skewed by associating with a lot of frum women.
When arguing for (as Ginsburg was) protections for women who were abused, assaulted, raped or discriminated against, you’re not going to find many women giggling.
When former justice Ginsburg was arguing in court, most of the judges were white men. Many of them were lousy, obsolete men.
Not that long ago -- early in my legal career -- one of those robed men placed a woman in custody because she (1) wore pants to court and (2) resisted when the judge said she could continue to wear pants if she presented a note evidencing her husband's approval, but that she must use her husband's surname instead of hers. That guy was a Republican federal judge -- until a few months later, when he "stepped away" under pressure.
Carry on, clingers. So long as your betters permit, that is.
Now that's the Revolting we all love to hate.
Better Americans don't want love from clingers. All we want from conservatives is continuing compliance as the American mainstream continues to shape our national progress against the wishes and efforts of conservative culture war casualties.
Right-wingers get to whine and whimper as much as they wish about all of this damned progress, reason, inclusiveness, science,
modernity, social justice, and education -- but they will comply.
Thanks, conservatives, for your continuing compliance with the preferences of your betters.
Again with the Klingers, the Kompliance, the Bettors,
and for the last time, I'm not putting the lotion
on the skin. I'm not rubbing it in.
To tell you the truth, brother,
between you and me, ...that thing with the complying with
your "preferences"
is coming off a little fruity.
That's just me talking.
Frank
You and Eugene Volokh deserve each other, Frank Drackman.
That story is about Helen Hulik, and the incident took place in 1938. If you're 120 years old, then congratulations, but I expect you're remembering something you read about later and confused yourself.
That's definitely a different context than I was thinking of, but I'm curious about the incident (did the judge in question stay on the bench?). I can't seem to find any mention of it on Google or Bing, or even confirmation that Ginsburg ever used the word "giggle." I assume this is because search engines have degraded so badly in recent years - do you have a pointer to this story?
They certainly giggle and smirk when I (used to) ask them for it.
because she noticed how many men, even 65-year-old judges, tended to turn into giggling adolescents when “sex” was mentioned
If you were any more full of shit you could single-handedly fertilize every cornfield in Iowa every time you opened your virtual mouth.
He didn't get it spot on but it's a well known story.
"on a panel honoring her at Columbia University, her law school alma mater, Ginsburg explained how she arrived at that linguistic choice:
"I owe it all to my secretary at Columbia Law School, who said 'I'm typing these briefs and articles for you and there's the word sex, sex, sex on every page!'" Ginsburg told the audience.
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/916377135/pathmarking-the-way-ruth-bader-ginsburgs-lifelong-fight-for-gender-equality
"She said, 'Don't you know that those nine men to whom you are arguing, when they hear that word, their first association is not what you want them to be thinking about?!'"
"He didn’t get it spot on "
An understatement!
She didn't notice it, it was specifically about the Supreme Court, and no giggling was mentioned.
It was my own experience with men of that generation (i.e., older men in the 1970s) that, no, you couldn’t get them into a conversation about those topics without them trying to throw a joke in, or at least trying to hide a smirk.
Just take the L.
You said "she noticed", not "I noticed"
First Year Med School, Grizzled Gross Anatomy Professor doing the lecture on the Genital Region. "We'll Cover the Female External Genitalia, Labia, Moms Pubis, Vagina, and then we'll slip the Penis in at the end"
Everyone laughed, even the 15 or 16 Chicks (last class before they went 50% XX, it's more like 60% now)
Frank
“He didn’t get it spot on ”
An understatement!
I'm shocked...SHOCKED, I TELL YOU...to hear that Sarcastr0 is defending a lie.
Well I hit a nerve here didn't I!
Why is everyone so upset about this? Are they somehow personally offended? If so, why?
It's just that it's always Sex! Sex! Sex!
I tell ya, I've had it up to here with Sex!
Not lately though, I'll tell ya that! (Rim Shot)
Frank
Given your history I can certainly see why you'd be perplexed by people objecting to dishonest assertions.
As far as nature is concerned, the sole purpose of sex (the act) is reproduction, and the sole difference between the sexes is that one creates an egg, the other fertilizes it. There is no third sex involved.
In humans, no human has ever actually changed their reproductive sex, nor has any human ever been fertile as both sexes, even in the most extreme intersex cases.
As far as nature is concerned, the sole purpose of sex (the act) is reproduction...
That certainly is not true for humans. Bonding and intimacy from having sex is beneficial to a couple's success at raising children, I would think.
Is it even true for all non-human animals? Do any animals besides humans engage in sex for pleasure or bonding purposes?
The bonobos are famous examples. Probably some other monkeys, too.
There's a bunch of animals that engage in homosexual sex as well, which is an even more obvious example of how wrong John Rohan is.
John Rohan doesn't know any better and seems disinclined to learn. He will be replaced soon enough, and his beliefs will continue to fade into irrelevance as America continues to improve against his stale, ugly conservative wishes.
As usual, you are very heavy with ad hominems, but very light on any specifics why someone else is actually wrong.
very light on any specifics why someone else is actually wrong
Other than they accurately pointed out that the entire premise of your comment was faulty.
Animals in nature use sex for purposes other than procreation. Bonobos, as has been mentioned, being a very well known and irrefutable example of non-humans using sex for non-procreative purposes, particularly including bonding.
As someone upthread said, just take the L. You were wrong.
Wrong about what? Your strawman? I never said animals used sex only for procreation.
But the ultimate purpose of sex is just that - procreation.
Then: the sole purpose of sex (the act) is reproduction
Now: I never said animals used sex only for procreation. But the ultimate purpose of sex is just that – procreation.
Can you spot the incompatibility between these two assertions?
If not, check your dictionary for the definition of "sole".
You dishonestly sliced off an important part of that statement, I’ll put it in bold.
As far as nature is concerned, the sole purpose of sex (the act) is reproduction…
Obviously from the micro POV of an individual gay man, lesbian, older hetero couple, etc reproduction is not much of a priority when it comes to sex. But from nature’s macro POV (“nature” being shorthand for evolutionary adaptations for species survival), reproduction is the only thing that ultimately matters.
"As far as nature is concerned" adds nothing to which I didn't respond. There's nothing "dishonest" about it. It is funny to see you flailing to gain the moral high ground though.
Are bonobos not a part of nature?
Are you arguing that the behavior of bonobos (and other animals) is not all, ultimately evolved in service of "the only thing that ultimately matters" from an evolutionary perspective?
As I've pointed out elsewhere, eating is an evolutionary adaptation for species survival whose "ultimate" purpose is reproduction of genes. But it's pretty banal and not terribly enlightening to assert that in some "macro POV" eating is only about reproduction.
Only you can explain why you have to amend your argument (from "sole purpose" to "ultimate purpose") and then try to backtrack when you see the consequences. It appears, you wanted to make the very flawed argument that homosexual acts are "unnatural" and serve no evolutionary purpose and therefore are "bad." It turns out, they are neither "unnatural", they do, in at least some cases and cultures, serve an evolutionary purpose, and, most importantly, none of that even matters to the question of whether those acts are "good" or "bad."
I'm sure you'll keep flailing though.
Again with the gay bonobos. You really have a one track mind. And I responded to you several times below.
Even the Chickens with sharp Talons? Sounds dangerous.
Explain to us how homosexual sex, either in humans or animals, contributes to reproduction.
Leaves more women for the Hetero men to choose from, not like that ever helped me any.
Your reading comprehension is not very good. Your assertion was procreation was the only purpose of sex in nature. It has accurately been pointed out sex serves non-procreative purposes in other animals, famously including bonobos.
No one in this thread has asserted that homosexual sex "contributes to reproduction".
(Although, with respect to bonobos, the fact that they do routinely engage in homosexual acts suggests there is an evolutionary benefit (i.e., in a roundabout way it likely does contribute to reproduction) to the practice for them.)
Your sexual fantasies about what bonobos do are irrelevant. What animals or humans do in their spare time is irrelevant. The fact remains that the sexes evolved to facilitate reproduction.
The fact remains that the sexes evolved to facilitate reproduction.
Sure, Captain Obvious. Glad you cleared up a point no one disputed or had any confusion about.
But, it's also true that pretty much everything that has evolved is to facilitate reproduction of the selfish gene. Evolution is pretty brutal in eliminating traits that are not conducive to reproduction.
As we've cleared up above (you slyly acknowledged "sole purpose" was inaccurate), sex (the act) has more purposes than simply the means of reproduction.
Do you dispute that the bonding of bonobos through non-procreative sex facilitates the survival/evolutionary success of individuals in that species and, so, the individual's success in perpetuating its genes?
Given the ruthless efficiency of natural selection, it's unlikely this behavior is not evolutionarily advantageous (i.e., that is doesn't contribute to successful propagation of genes into the next generation). Maybe you see that your evolution from "the sole purpose of sex (the act) is reproduction" to "the ultimate purpose of sex is just that – procreation" leaves plenty of room for the idea that homosexual acts in bonobos, as well as eating and sleeping and playing, all have the "ultimate purpose" of propagating genes into future generations.
Go forth and be less bigoted!
What is it with you and bonobos?? Do you own a set of bonobo sex tapes?
Again, at the risk of indulging your perverted fantasies even more, the fact that some people & animals use sex for purposes other than reproduction has zero to do with the fact that the ultimate purpose of sex is reproduction. People also eat unhealthy foods, become obese, even die from overeating. That doesn't mean that we evolved the ability to eat food for the purpose of becoming obese or killing ourselves with food.
the ultimate purpose of sex is reproduction
Only in the banal sense that every naturally selected trait has the ultimate purpose of reproduction.
People also give to charity, help complete strangers, and sacrifice their lives for strangers. That doesn't mean that we evolved for the purpose of sacrificing our lives for strangers. In fact, quite the opposite. Yet, I think we all agree those things I listed that we do, including those that actually thwart our evolutionary success, are laudable activities.
I'm glad we agree that whether something is "natural" or "unnatural" or whether it helps with reproduction or doesn't is not determinative of, and in many cases is irrelevant to, whether it is a good or bad thing.
I'm glad we won't see you making that very flawed argument in the future.
I never made the argument that gay sex was good or a bad thing. That's your insecurity and your strawman talking.
Humans do a million things that their bodies weren't originally designed to do. Not all of them are immoral.
The subject of this article is "what is sex". I'm just telling you what sex is. Not eroticism, not fetishism, not bestiality, but human sex.
I can't help if if you are in denial about the basics of biology.
You said: “As far as nature is concerned, the sole purpose of sex (the act) is reproduction”
Which is wrong. When that was pointed out, you said:
Explain to us how homosexual sex, either in humans or animals, contributes to reproduction.
Which is entirely irrelevant to the first point you made and which, at any rate, is answerable as I explained how, in bonobos, it contributes to reproduction unless by that phrase you mean “only traits and behaviors that directly facilitate reproduction” which you explicitly say below you never said.
The question is: What is your point? Because you are wrong about “the sole purpose” of sex (the act) and you are wrong that homosexual behavior cannot be evolutionarily advantageous.
If, as it now appears, you only ever meant to make the rather banal point that sexual reproduction is an evolved thing (with certain advantages and disadvantages vis a vis asexual reproduction) and involves, in humans, one egg-producing member of the species and one sperm producing member of the species, then you’ve done a really poor job of making that point. Particularly as it is an incredibly obvious point.
The “sole purpose” argument has nothing to do with that. It’s irrelevant and, worse, your “purpose” framing is anthropomorphizing a purposeless process and merely confuses the issue.
Eyes have the “purpose” to see, but also, in humans, to convey emotion, etc. Which is to say, they don’t have “a purpose”, rather they are evolutionarily advantageous in certain ways and they are useful to the humans who have them in most of those ways and in other ways as well. Same for sex. It has evolutionary advantages and then it has uses for the humans who engage in it that have little or nothing to do with conveying an evolutionary advantage.
It takes consciousness to give purpose. And that’s one of the key failures of your argument, relying as it does on "purpose" (whether the "sole" or later "primary" purpose argument). As has been pointed out, sex (the act) has many purposes only one of which is procreation. You went down a blind alley with that argument.
The fact remains that the sexes evolved to facilitate reproduction.
Reproduction occurred before sexual reproduction evolved and parthenogenesis is still common enough in some species.
It doesn't at all. Which is the whole point.
There's a bunch of animals that eat their children, which is an even even more obvious example of the limits of looking to other species for ideas of natural behavior.
Don’t you believe in Evil-lution? must be a selection advantage somewhere, and at least they're not being wasteful, just flushing them down a suction cannister like we do, not that there's people I would have preferred were flushed down suction cannisters.
Frank
the limits of looking to other species for ideas of natural behavior
I rather think it's an indictment of the idea that "natural behavior" in any way correlates to good or right behavior. Murder, by all appearances, is pretty natural in our and many other species. It's the anti-LGBT crowd that retreats to the bromide that the conduct is "not natural" in grasping for reasons to condemn the independent, private, consensual conduct of adults.
You can certainly have bonding without sex. In the animal world, most mammals and birds naturally bond with their parents. But sex organs were developed for reproduction.
That doesn't mean its immoral to engage in other sex activities that don't involve reproduction. The article here is about definitions, and when discussing this subject, it helps to go back to the basics and shed cultural baggage.
it helps to go back to the basics and shed cultural baggage
Some of that baggage is pretending the act of sex has one and only one purpose, in nature or otherwise. You are the problem you are complaining about.
Then enlighten us. Why do you think sex evolved then?
So that people could engage in BDSM, furry cosplay, or wear edible panties? Those are all fun things for some people, and nothing morally wrong with it, if it involves consenting adults.
But all nature cares about is the propagation of a species, so all the rest of that is irrelevant to the definition of sex.
Why do you think sex evolved then?
Reduces the effect of harmful mutations, is one possibility.
But all nature cares about is the propagation of a species, so all the rest of that is irrelevant to the definition of sex.
Nature actually doesn't care about anything. Anthropomorphizing evolution can be useful to explain some concepts in some circumstances, it isn't here.
all the rest of that is irrelevant to the definition of sex
This does not follow from your premise, though it is true that none of your fetishes are actually relevant to the definition of sex (the noun). Sex, like most words, has the meaning we give it. You started this talking about "sex (the act)", now you are talking about sex (the noun). Did you ever have a point?
Remember, you came in after people pointed out that you were wrong about the "sole purpose" of sex (the act) with this gem:
Explain to us how homosexual sex, either in humans or animals, contributes to reproduction.
It's been explained that (a) even assuming that's true, it's not relevant to your initial ("sole purpose") point or the refutation of it and (b) your implied point (i.e. that homosexual sex does not contribute to reproduction) would appear to be wrong except in the most banal sense that everything except acts directly leading to a successful meeting of sperm and egg fails to "contribute to reproduction."
How about female ducks that have evolved defenses against rape? How does that contribute to reproduction? (Obviously, the evolved trait is to thwart specific instances of actual reproduction to give the females choice in picking better mates.) Might you think similar indirect evolutionary benefits may flow from the homosexual acts we see "in nature"? At the least, nature isn't only concerned with only traits and behaviors that directly facilitate reproduction.
Do you have any point that actually addresses anything I said? Or did you have these strawman arguments written down already, and just copied and pasted them in here? I sure as hell never said that nature was "only concerned with only traits and behaviors that directly facilitate reproduction."
Exactly WHAT is your argument?
Tell us then, if not reproduction, just why the fuck do you think the biological process of sex evolved in the first place?
As explained ad nauseam, my point is that your two points are wrong.
It is not true that “As far as nature is concerned, the sole purpose of sex (the act) is reproduction” (even setting aside that nature isn't concerned with anything).
It is entirely irrelevant to anything in this conversation whether homosexual sex, either in humans or animals, contributes to reproduction.
You've just spent a lot of time kind of backtracking from the first, but then seeming to circle back. Just admit, that statement is factually wrong. The second statement is irrelevant and, in any case, there are reasons to think it almost certainly can as I set forth in more detail above.
Tell us then, if not reproduction, just why the fuck do you think the biological process of sex evolved in the first place?
As has been pointed out to you, reproduction occurred long before sex.
This is one of your issues. You can't accurately and precisely say what you mean.
Sexual reproduction evolved, in some species, because it provides certain advantages over asexual reproduction in terms of genetic diversity and, perhaps, lessening the impact of harmful mutations. But we don't really know how it evolved. But it evolved somewhere between 1.2 and 2.0 billion years ago, so the answer to that question really has very little to do with humans (or the OP or anything you have said).
It’s relevant, because yet again, you don’t seem to comprehend what is the topic on the table. This discussion isn’t directly about trans rights, gay rights, or your favorite topic, sex with bonobos. Or the morality thereof. It’s about the actual definitions of sex and gender.
I haven’t backtracked from anything. Sex evolved for the purpose of reproduction. Even you are now begrudgingly admitting that. Yes of course reproduction of another type happened before that – but that’s hardly relevant. We were were an entirely different species then! This discussion is about humans. There are a few animals that can actually change their sex. Humans can’t. Sex (the noun) is binary and immutable.
you don’t seem to comprehend what is the topic on the table
I've pointed out what this conversation is about. You were just wrong when you entered.
I haven’t backtracked from anything.
First: the sole purpose of sex (the act) is reproduction”
Second: I never said animals used sex only for procreation. But the ultimate purpose of sex is just that – procreation.
Are you even serious? I invite you to look up the definition of "sole" again, as you clearly don't understand what that word means. Or you don't understand what "backtrack" means.
You changed positions as, obviously, your first comment in this thread was factually wrong. Now you claim you didn't backtrack, i.e., retreat from the indefensible "sole purpose" statement.
Sex evolved for the purpose of reproduction.
You clearly don't understand that reproduction occurred before sex evolved. In fact, reproduction was necessary for there to be evolution. I'll say again, you don't think precisely at all. This statement is just wrong.
This discussion is about humans.
Actually, it's about whether the sole purpose of sex is reproduction, which, quite obviously it is not. Furthermore, if it is about humans, then your point about sex evolving for any "purpose" is idiotic as humans didn't evolve sex. Humans inherited sex from our non-human ancestors. Therefore, it is nonsensical to talk about why sex evolved in humans. By the time humans arrived on the scene, sex quite clearly had more than one purpose.
Sex (the noun) is binary and immutable.
This, despite your confusion, has nothing to do with your original point about "sex (the act)." I don't think you even know what you're arguing.
The existence of intersex individuals also refutes your mistaken belief that sex is binary. Typically it is binary. In the vast majority of cases it is binary. But there are humans who are neither male nor female, in terms of biological sex. There is a condition called ovotestis in which the person has tissue for producing both eggs and sperm. There is at least one reported case of a person actually being able to produce first eggs and then his testes began producing sperm.
Yes, these cases are extremely rare. But they exist. I'm not so sure why it's so important to you that biological sex be absolutely and always binary. But, given your fuzzy thinking on other topics (sole purpose, implying sex evolved in humans for reproduction etc.), maybe you just aren't very good with the nuances of the actual world. You need things to be simple and straightforward when, in fact, the real world, especially including biology, is messy.
This bears response:
Even you are now begrudgingly admitting that.
As I've pointed out, I didn't "admit" anything other than you seem utterly confused about biology. I do admit that I have a much better understanding of biological sex than you do.
As far as nature is concerned, the sole purpose of sex (the act) is reproduction,
Doesn't sound right to me.
Humans too old to reproduce still engage in sex, and even enjoy it to the extent of very actively seeking opportunities, often at considerable cost.
If it were only about reproduction, wouldn't it make sense, from an evolutionary point of view, for that to stop once fertility ends? It would save a lot of time, conflict, jealousy, even murder.
Not really a great example. We evolved to eat food to nourish our bodies, yet plenty of people eat more than the optimal amount - even to the point where some die of obesity.
Anyway, not making moral judgements (sheesh!) . But if we are talking about the fucking definition of sex, it helps to get back to what the original purpose of it even is.
"If it were only about reproduction, wouldn’t it make sense, from an evolutionary point of view,..."
As an aside, this is a common point people miss - Darwin doesn't say that organisms end up optimized (that would be intelligent design!) - they just end up better than whatever else has come along.
The downsides of being interested in sex after fertility are pretty small - you can argue that, say, if granny gets tired of gramps chasing 20 year olds[1] and clubs him while he sleeps, the downside is maybe a little less positive kin selection caring for the grandkids. In contrast, the downside (from your gene's POV) of not being interested in sex while fertile is yuuuuge. So there is a huge selection pressure to reproduce while fertile, and only (maybe!) a tiny one to cease trying post fertility.
Lots of biological things are suboptimal. For example, one of the things that has involved is a one way digestive system. Early organisms had only one opening to the digestive system. If lunch was half digested when a dinner opportunity arrived, you have to pass on the opportunity, or mix the new and half digested food, or get rid of the partially digested lunch and start over with the new dinner. Evolving two openings mean you can have this wonderfully efficient multi stage flow through digestive tract.
To date, we haven't done the same with respiration - when you are done exhaling, there is still a non-trivial tidal volume of useless air in your respiratory tract, and that's the first thing to enter your alveoli when you inhale. How much better it would be to have a one way flow through air path!
Evolution doesn't guarantee good, it only guarantees better than the competition.
[1]and note that, for gramps' genes, him chasing 20 year olds is a good thing if he succeeds in fathering another kid
“I’ll have Bigger Picture for $400, Alex.”
”It's an angry gathering point meme, one of hundreds, used in memeplexes by to try to gather sufficient followers to seize control from other corruptions with their own near-critical mass of followers. All that really matters is the corruptions remain on the gravy train, facilitated by being in power.”
“What is ‘sex’?”
‘it helps to explain why a whole lot of us who aren’t religious or conservative are at profound odds with progressive academia and advocacy even as we may otherwise self-describe, as I do, as liberal or progressive.’
Ah. Right. Some academics make some arguments, which you may or may not be representing accurately, and which may or may not be widespread, but this puts you at such profound odds with them you can’t make common cause with them, meanwhile there’s a spate of anti-trans laws, lgtbq book-banning and a presidential candidate promising to roll back trans rights.
“is almost never because we don’t care about trans people, it’s because we also care about sex.”
At WORST sex is ‘under attack’ by academics challenging preconceptions and existing definitions, the sorts of things academics are supposed to do. Trans people, meanwhile, are actually under real political and social attack. These things are the same.
‘This almost singular focus and the corresponding erasure of the female model was rationalized on the historically ironic grounds that we’re alike enough that it’s okay only to use males as research subjects’
I feel compelled to point out that a feminist wrote an entire book about this, and women everywhere, feminist or not, reacted with an utter lack of surprise. Misogynists have been bad-faith twisting ‘equality’ to mean ‘there’s no differences between men and women’ since feminism began. Trans women don’t erase the differences either, otherwise they wouldn’t need hormone treatments and surgery.
I think there's a real cleavage between trans PEOPLE and trans ACTIVISTS here.
The weird gender theories of Judith Butler have little to do with real life. But some activists have made it their singular goal in life to enact her theories as both positive law and cultural norms.
Meanwhile, your typical trans person wants (1) not to be discriminated against because they have transitioned, (2) access to the health care they need to transition and to manage their transition, and (3) basic respect such as names and pronouns.
Now to be clear, there are real threats to those things, plus some edge cases that require real discussion and debate (sports, prisons, changing rooms, nude spas, etc.). But the movement that Prof. Coleman is arguing against is a basically Extremely Online movement that punches above its weight in certain institutions and advances some ridiculous positions that I doubt are even of much interest to many actual trans people. E.g., if you are mad at Jesse Singal for writing an article about detransitioners or demanding that abortion rights groups say "pregnant people" and not "pregnant women", your concerns are pretty far from the actual material interests of the trans population.
Trans activists being strident tends to be the outcome of a massive anti-trans movement. Jesse Singal drives them crazy because his articles are so incredbly shitty and yet are taken seriously, which has real-world consequences. Trans men do get pregnant and somethimes have abortions. Peoples' ideas about trans real-world material interests are quite incrediby distorted.
If you want something Extremely Online to treat seriously, libsoftiktok will target people, often trans, and her followers will swarm, dox and harass whoever she picks on, and if she picks a teacher there will be bomb threats to the school and if she picks a doctor there will be bomb threats sent to a childrens' hosipital. Criticising Jesse Singal and asking for inclusive language kinda pales into insignificance, unless everybody keeps insisting they are truly terrible awful things, while ignoring everything else
I'll just take this one because it may demonstrate how wrong you are:
"Trans men do get pregnant and sometimes have abortions."
Yes, that happens. Now, how often does that happen. Of the 1 million or so abortions last year in America, how many were performed on trans men? 300? 30? 3?
Remember, even trans men getting PREGNANT is very rare. First of all a lot of them can't get pregnant because of the various medical treatments they are receiving. A lot of them are in relationships with people who are not assigned male at birth and thus the only way they are likely getting pregnant is as a result of an intentional act of insemination unlikely to result in abortion. (Yes sexual assaults happen but I bet the number of trans men impregnated by sexual assaults is a tiny number.)
So we have this thing that almost never happens, is irrelevant to the abortion issue really, and if we worry about would force us to deprive the argument of its moral force (which comes directly from the fact that abortion rights are WOMEN's rights that arise out specific aspects of a WOMAN's sex and reproductive capacity).
And, finally, it's not like most trans people are calling for this. It's a few idiots in the Internet who aren't helping trans people at all with these calls and ARE hurting the cause of women's rights. Any wonder that there's a TERF movement within feminism?
So no, online trans activism is bad for trans people, because it focuses on idiotic stuff like "pregnant people" while taking the focus off the actual rights violations that trans people face.
Of course "Trans men" is just another way to say "Women", to technical? Bee-Otches (HT Reverend Revolting), Cunts, Split-Tails, Double X's, Battle Axes, Floozies, Hags, Harpies, Dykes, Molls, Muff Divers, Fag Hags, Shiksas, Shrews, Sluts, Spinsters, Squaws, Twats,
dammit, know I'm missing a few,
Frank
Remember the good old days, Mr. Volokh, when you could censor liberals for partisan reasons and claim it was for violation of a "civility standard" and for "vulgarity?"
‘Of the 1 million or so abortions last year in America, how many were performed on trans men?’
Well, you don’t know, so probably best to play it safe. The reason for doing it is to show solidarity.
‘So we have this thing that almost never happens,’
‘Being trans’ is something that almost never happens, and yet there’s a massive hate crusade against them mobilised by the right. On the one had, you have ‘uses different but still accurate words’ on the other you have ‘literally emulate the Nazis.’ Tough call.
‘and ARE hurting the cause’
This is the same as ‘some academics are talking about sex in a way I don’t like so I won’t oppose the fascists.’ It’s not impressive, as a moral stand. It’s more like an excuse.
The reason for doing it is to show solidarity.
Why is "showing solidarity" to the tiny number of trans men who get abortions (who, by the way, may not even give a crap about whether you show solidarity with them) so important that it is worth giving up the women's rights rhetoric that persuaded a majority of Americans to support abortion rights?
Screw solidarity. Trans people don't need rhetorical solidarity over a marginal issue like abortion rights for trans men. They need rights and health care and their identity respected.
‘Being trans’ is something that almost never happens
Not true 1.6 million American adults and teens identify as trans. That's a significant number. Indeed, one reason I consider trans rights an important issue worthy of my concern and support is because I know that there are a lot of trans people and this is an issue of significant concern.
"1.6 million American adults and teens identify as trans"
Social contagion. Especially the teenager cohort.
See? They literally think they're a disease, and that they infect children. Satanic panic.
"Social Contagion is defined as the spread of behaviors, attitudes, and affect through crowds and other types of social aggregates from one member to another. Adolescents are prone to social contagion because they may be especially susceptible to peer influence and social media." National Institutes of Health Published online 2023 Feb 15.
Call Wertham!
Where you been Nige-bot? Tranny-ism is a disease with it's own ICD10 code (F64.9) and Cutting (Literally) Edge treatments
‘so important that it is worth giving up the women’s rights rhetoric’
That’s up to the abortion activists to decide, and its hardly ‘giving up.’ Slogans and wordings change.
‘Screw solidarity’
This is unsurprising, since you seem to acknowledge the righteousness of the Trans cause yet seek to distance yourself from it at the same time. Generally, in terms of civil rights, solidarity always gives people more power than ignoring other injustices.
‘Trans people don’t need rhetorical solidarity over a marginal issue like abortion rights for trans men. They need rights and health care and their identity respected.’
You seem to think these things will magically arrive, or where they already exist be magically protected, by them sitting still and being quiet and behaving perfectly and getting no support whatsoever from other people active on their political side. I do not think this is a particularly clever approach.
Re: solidarity. This coming election Trump is set to give Republicans whatever they want on abortion, as well as roll back trans rights - that makes them allies right there. On top of that:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/2024/05/21/trump-contraception-restrictions-policy/
Whether you regard trans issues as a subset of or adjacent to the assault on women by Republicans, they can, as they say, hang together or hang seperately.
haha he backtracked so fast he got whiplash luckily he's a trustworthy guy
His post was a reversal of comments he made in an interview with KDKA News in Pittsburgh when he was asked whether he supported any restrictions on a person’s right to contraception.
“We’re looking at that, and I’m going to have a policy on that very shortly, and I think it’s something that you’ll find interesting,” Trump said. “I think it’s a smart decision. But we’ll be releasing it very soon.”
How can you read the second paragraph and not laugh out loud at Trump and the fools who believe him? But hey, Biden got the inflation rate wrong.
Whatever does or doesn't happen in November, it won't be affected by sophomoric leftist notions of solidarity.
It might, however, be affected by whether abortion rights is a salient issue, which requires we talk about pregnant women using the language normies use.
It certainly won't if they listen to you. Though you're also saying that trans people COULD affect the outcome with their absolute control of the English language.
the actual rights violations that trans people face
Which are...?
Probably not having the state pay for sex change surgery or hormones. Or even more outrageous, banning chemical and surgical transition for minors.
That's about all I can think of that would be unique to trans.
As Jacob says, the laws banning health care, the laws that seek to enforce gender conformity in names and clothes, the ones that forbid children in school from having names other than the ones on their nirth certificate, campaigns to remove lgtbq books from schools and libraries, that sort of thing. Which state was it set up a snitch line for people to inform on trans people who they suspect of going into the wrong places? Utah?
"laws that seek to enforce gender conformity in names and clothes"
Citation?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/arresting-dress-timeline-anti-cross-dressing-laws-u-s
https://archive.ph/oVYVq
(It's funny how every time you lot demand proof of this and I post links you either don't bother to read them or immediately forget their contents!)
"1848 law" "wave of laws in the 1850s"
You are just being stupid now.
I'm sorry they confused you with history.
You are just being stupid now.
"now"?
As the article showed, people like you were always stupid.
There are some laws against sexually mutilating children.
Satanic panic!
Nige, even the most outspoken advocates for transitioning children admit that parental involvement in the process is critical for success. Especially when trans children are so incredibly vulnerable, as you repeatedly point out. It's too important to be kept a secret from those who are charged with the well-being of their children.
As for books, the level of grossness and obscenity that was being put into certain "lgtbq" books in school libraries all but guaranteed an overreaction. Ultimately, it falls upon the schools that are supposed to operate with some competence and responsibility rather than well-meaning but dumb parents and politicians who answer to them.
'Nige, even the most outspoken advocates for transitioning children admit that parental involvement in the process is critical for success.'
As with anything related to children, parental support is hugely important.
'It’s too important to be kept a secret from those who are charged with the well-being of their children.'
The question is, why does the chld feel the need to keep it secret?
'As for books, the level of grossness and obscenity that was being put into certain “lgtbq” books in school libraries all but guaranteed an overreaction'
Only from people who think young people should not be educated about sex.
Ultimately it falls on the schools not to capitualte to the hystrionic demands of well funded loudmouthed minorities of religious extemist parents who out to be creepy and weird in their own right.
Yes, some transmen have gotten pregnant. And zero transwomen have gotten pregnant. Ever, in the entirety of human history.
So that leads us to conclude that transmen are females, and transwomen are males. What a surprise.
Here's a simple way to remember it "trans" means "not", so "transman" means "not a man".
And yet trans men are men and trans women are women. Embrace the paradox and messiness of real life, it means precisely fuck all to you personally.
It must be nice to live in a bubble free of science and biology.
It must be weird to have a rigid and inflexible doctrinal approach to 'science and biology' based on this one hyper-narrow issue.
Oh, wait, maybe you're also anti-vaxx? In which case congratulations for helping bring back measles!
Didn’t Timberlake bring that back??
It must be weird to decide that because an issue is "hyper narrow" you can arbitrarily decide to ignore the actual biology of sex in favor of politics.
No, what you mean is you think if you repeat 'biology' like a magic word trans people will vanish.
My impression is that trans activists are the most unreasonable people in the world.
Rejecting reason (and suppressing science, and warping history) to flatter childish superstition seems more unreasonable. Why would you give people who do that a pass?
I am not giving a pass to the trans activists, who nearly all deny basic science.
Do you give a pass to ostensible adults who believe (or, at least, claim to believe) fairy tales -- silly nonsense -- are true . . . and expect special privileges associated with that gullibility and superstition?
No, I do not give a pass to you. All you do is name-calling.
I say reason is superior to superstition; inclusiveness is better than bigotry; science is superior to dogma; our nation's strongest research and teaching institutions are superior to backwater, nonsense-based, academic freedom-flouting conservative schools; our educated and modern communities are superior to our can't-keep-up rural and southern backwaters; and progress and modern America are superior to backwardness and the illusory "good old days" for which right-wingers pine. Clingers label these statements -- and calling a bigot a bigot -- name-calling.
Have you met you?
"trans activists are the most unreasonable people in the world."
Third.
Train and bike activists.
If the kidnapped Israeli women abort their rape babies…then they are the true monsters!! Also, they should respect the wishes of their rapists and raise the babies as Muslims! All praise to Allah!!
Where are religious fundamentalists -- old-timey, bigoted, religious kooks -- on your list?
+1 to this
Although I think it's silly when (as we see here) folks on the right argue that all of the anti-trans hate is really the left's fault for trying to protect them in the first place, I do think that in some case trans activists have pushed the debate so far in one direction that it's come at a cost to overall public support for the types of protections that Dilan outlines above. (The way we approach trans athletes in sports is probably a good example of this.)
As Dilan put it, athletics is an "edge case" where there are good arguments on both sides. I think partial-birth abortion is to trans athletics as abortion rights are to trans rights.
While some on the left have taken extreme views (not on edge issues) that turn most people off, it's the right that is guilty of using edge issues to drive a wedge between supporters of abortion and trans rights. It didn't work for abortion. Hopefully, it won't for trans rights either.
Just the issues themselves are "edge" issues, since abortion is a pretty rare event for most women, and being trans is overall pretty rare too. It's the political left that is driving the wedge here, because they don't allow any room for nuanced disagreement. See how they turned on JK Rowling, for example. You can be banned on Reddit simply for saying you disagree that transwomen are women.
BTW, if you think that athletics is an issue where there are good arguments on both sides, I would love to hear what you think is a good argument for allowing males to dominate female sports.
'It’s the political left that is driving the wedge here,'
That's odd, it's the right passing anti-abortion and anti-trans laws.
That's odd, since it's the left that started this whole thing in 2011 by introducing the "dear colleague" letters that threatened to pull federal funding from any school that didn't allow males to play on female teams or use their locker rooms and showers. Followed by pronoun mandates, trans pride celebrations, federal funding of experimental gender surgeries, and the list goes on.
As far as I can discern, there's no such letter. Can you point to whatever you're talking about?
Yeah, he's got the 2011 letter on sexual harassment confused with the 2016 letter that actually did that.
Hmm, that letter says this:
So it seems like it does not say what John is asserting it says? (It does allow transgender students access to the restrooms or locker rooms of the gender they identify with, so I guess he's only half wrong?)
Yes, as Brett noted, it was 2016, not 2011.
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/obama-administration-title-ix-transgender-student-rights-223149
Should a middle-school trans girl play softball with the girls or baseball with the boys during gym class? One side argues she will have an unfair competitive advantage if she plays with the girls, and thus harm those girls. The other side argues playing with the boys harms her because it is counter to her treatment for gender dysphoria. The resolution ought come down to which harm is greater. The answer may depend on the age, level of competition, the sport and other case-by-case factors.
"counter to her treatment for gender dysphoria"
That suggests that the treatment is expecting everyone else to change, rather than managing the patient's own self-perception.
This certainly suggests that your idea of personal freedom and autonomy is so tightly constrained literally seeing or hearing another person exercising it is intolerable.
Denying the patient's gender identity rarely works. Very few are forced to accept the patient's gender identity, but people of good will do so.
We want kids participating in sports and exercising because it’s healthy physically and mentally. Now varsity sports and college sports are inherently exclusionary and so excluding people for various reasons is standard operating procedure and so trans athletes might be excluded on various grounds like not being good enough.
I think part of the varsity sports area is scholarships. Private entities that offer scholarships can award them to anyone they like. Government associated would be according to policy. I think there is an argument for some protection of female sports regarding things like scholarship opportunity but then again whatever entity offers the scholarship gets to set the criteria. There are anecdotes of players being injured some sports where contact is expected. When I played youth football there were weight limits on players for safety reasons.
Most of what I see are the wings on each side of the issue doing their normal thing. Maybe this is something that should be on a case by case basis.
Then too you have the parents of the children involved. Each will want what is best for their child.
People, especially those with public clout, need to stop disparaging these kids though. I mean they are children for goodness sake.
Just my rambling thoughts.
I think there's already pretty good evidence that it's working. See the initial reaction to North Carolina's bathroom bill in back in 2016 versus now as a pretty strong example of how public sentiment has moved.
trying to protect them
From what?
I do think that in some case trans activists have pushed the debate so far in one direction that it’s come at a cost to overall public support for the types of protections that Dilan outlines above. (The way we approach trans athletes in sports is probably a good example of this.)
What does trans athletes in sports have to do with "protecting" trans individuals?
Stuff like employment discrimination. See Bostock. Or just see Dilan's list above, which seemed pretty reasonable to me.
Only that the arguments that trans activists have been making about athletics may be alienating the public sufficiently that it makes it easier for anti-trans sentiment to reverse protections in those other areas. (Although to take the side of the activists for a moment: they probably think that it's important that trans women get to compete in sports too, just like everyone else.)
Trans activists know a wedge issue when they see it; and these anti-trans people both lie about and overestimate the support they have. They’re just well-funded because of crackpot billionaires and well-off Christian fundamentalists. Politicians who run hard on anti-woke nonsense often do poorly without extensive gerrymandering.
Not much cleavage between conservative bigots who hate transgender people (and gays, and Blacks, and immigrants, etc.) and conservative bigots who hate transgender activists, though.
Many lefty feminists dislike trans activists. Do you think they are bigots?
Probably depends on why they hate them.
Why do conservatives hate gays . . . and Blacks . . . and Jews . . . and transgender people . . . and immigrants . . . and women . . . and . . . agnostics . . . and Muslims . . . and atheists . . . and . . .
(Not all hatred is bigotry. Conservatives hate our strongest research and teaching institutions, but not entirely because of bigotry. They hate modernity, but not entirely because of bigotry. They hate progress, but not entirely because of bigotry. They hate science, credentials, and expertise, but not entirely because of bigotry.)
As a conservative of many years standing, I take exception to you're scurrilous lies. You're a scoundrel and deserve my opprobrium!
Considering what feminists went through simply for being activists and the shit they took for giving women a bad name and always damaging their cause with their carry-on, I guess they're just forgetful.
No, they remember. They remember males pushing them out of their opportunities and into their spaces making them feel unsafe. And they are pissed off that your side is doing that to them all over again.
Feminism traditionally accepted trans people. Most of them still do. It seems to be men like you telling them what they should and shouldn't do. Again.
If that's true, it was back when they are were called transvestites and drag queens, and no one was pretending that biology was irrelevant.
Sex? Yes Please! (HT A. Powers)
.
Are you referring to our vestigial conservative bigots, professor? The obsolete culture war casualties who believe superstition improves bigotry, or transforms bigotry into something other than bigotry?
Why the kid gloves for bigots? Is it the venue -- a white, male, right-wing blog dedicated to creating and preserving safe safes for conservative bigots -- or your nature?
Yes, she is. It’s code for can we just let the adults talk for a few minutes? Necessary sometimes.
It's all rather tiresome.
A man can't become a woman. A woman can't become a man. You are what you are. There's no two ways about it, the lefties are just loony.
Nobody cared about this issue until the left began turning it into a political football, starting in Charlotte NC by forcing everyone to let men into women's locker rooms.
'Nobody cared about this issue'
Everybody was more or less content to let trans people exist in peace until suddenly the rw culture war needed a new target.
Dr Jill Biden actually accidentally offered a little insight into this issue at the 2023 Women’s Final Four. So first LSU stiffed her pregame because Joe Biden didn’t pick them to win in his bracket challenge which is pretty funny. So Dr Jill was a little upset with LSU and I think the LSU players didn’t realize Biden was Obama’s political ally and so they just didn’t give her the respect she believed she deserved. Anyway, after LSU won Dr Jill offered the losers a chance to attend to WH ceremony along with LSU and outrage ensued. Plus many people who had never watched women’s basketball were outraged by the behavior of the players during the game.
Long story short—many Americans didn’t understand just how competitive women athletes are and just assume they are good sports that want everyone to participate and have a good time. Women athletes are probably more competitive than men because winning is so much more important. The losers on a men’s team will still get huge professional sports contracts while in women’s college athletics winning is all they will have. So once one understands how competitive female athletes are it makes perfect sense they won’t welcome a group of people with an inherent advantage into their competition.
It is difficult to believe Prof. Coleman is unaware that right-wing bigots constitute this blog’s target audience. Her return to this forum as a contributor in that context —precipitating yet another stream of bigoted comments from the Volokh Conspirators’ carefully cultivated collection of conservative commenters — reflects poorly on her character. Duke deserves better.
Carry on, clingers.
You're a bigoted sexist and racist pig. You're betters will see you gone soon enough. Squeal piggy squeal.