The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
On Sex and Gender
The last time I blogged for the Volokh Conspiracy was in March 2019, following my testimony in the Semenya case at the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). That case was one of the first—if not the first—to raise two questions which have since become central features of our culture wars:
(1) Whether 'female' still means a person with a female body—or more generally whether 'sex' still means biological sex, e.g., per the NIH, 'the differences between males and females caused by differential sex chromosome complement, reproductive tissues, and concentrations of sex steroids' (emphasis mine); or per Oxford via Google, 'either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.'
(2) Whether it's still permissible to have (biological) sex classifications and then to sort people in and out of those categories on the basis of (biological) sex differences—or whether gender (here as legal gender or gender identity) is the better sorting tool.
(I emphasize caused by because sex isn't our chromosomes, our gonads, and/or our gonadal hormones. Rather, these are part of a much larger set of sex characteristics two of whose functions are to drive human sexual development and to sustain our bodies thereafter.)
In line with some progressive positions on these questions, at the CAS in 2019, two-time Olympic Gold Medalist Caster Semenya claimed—unsuccessfully in that forum—that she has a human rights-based reliance interest in her (female) legal gender that trumps her (male) sex so that she should have unconditional access to the female competition category.
(Just to get this off the table, for about a decade from 2010 to 2020, the media and others suggested that Semenya's actual sex—as opposed to her birth sex assignment—was female or something in between female and male. The terms 'female with hyperandrogenism' and 'intersex' were widely bandied about in that period. But that's since been put to rest, including by the CAS decision and most recently by the athlete herself. In her 2023 memoir, she denies being 'intersex' and (mostly) opens up about the relevant biology.
She appealed the CAS decision to the Swiss Federal Tribunal, where she lost; and the SFT's decision to the European Court of Human Rights, where she won an initial round—the en banc hearing on Switzerland's appeal is this month.)
My posts on Semenya's case—including on the underlying science, the performance gap between male and female athletes, and the commitments that inform the governing bodies' eligibility standards—probably contributed to my being invited by the GOP to testify a month later before the House Judiciary Committee that was considering H.R. 5 – The Equality Act. The Act would redefine 'sex' in federal law to include (among other things) sex stereotypes, gender identity, and sex characteristics (our 'bits')—but apparently not the sexed body itself. It would otherwise disallow any distinctions on the basis of sex and sex-linked biology—even good and valuable ones.
Together with my ongoing work, my testimony for federal protections for gay and trans people but against this strategy for achieving them led to a years-long, sometimes hostile, involvement with the issue that has culminated in a new trade book, out tomorrow from Simon & Schuster, On Sex and Gender – A Commonsense Approach. Some of the hostility occurred at a UCLA Federalist Society event just days before the country shut down for Covid. In other words, it's partly Eugene's fault that I'm back to blog about the subject as it's transcended sports.
As I explain in the Introduction, since I entered the domestic fray in 2019:
the culture war between those on the left who want to erase sex and those on the right who want to erase gender diversity has only ratcheted up. As a candidate for the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination, Joe Biden announced that the Equality Act would be his top legislative priority, and he's followed through to the extent of his authority. Florida governor Ron DeSantis, who was a candidate for the 2024 Republican nomination, illustrates the response. He's spearheaded laws that ban gender-affirming care for trans kids and any instruction on gay and transgender issues in schools.
It's not just straight male politicians who are presenting us with either/ors. In the sports world, Megan Rapinoe "would 'absolutely' welcome a transgender woman onto the USWNT," while Caitlyn Jenner "opposes biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school." These are just a few prominent examples. But in between, where the polling shows you'll find most Americans, there's confusion and concern.
I'm writing this book for everyone who wants to understand what's going on for themselves, and who's inclined to be both inclusive and true to the science. I'm also writing to say my piece.
We are at a crossroads in the history of sex and gender. We've overcome a lot of the historical sexism that defined women and their lives, and we now need to decide if, going forward, we're going to be sex-blind or sex-smart. This was already the question in 1996 when [Ruth Bader] Ginsburg penned the majority opinion in United States v. Virginia; that is, it predates the current trans movement. But in pushing as hard as it does for sex blindness, the movement has forced women—and men—in the middle to articulate a nonreligious case that sex matters and to show that there's a path forward that embraces both sex and gender. These are the goals of this book.
Here's the Table of Contents that details how I do that:
Part I. What is Sex?
Chapter 1 – The Answer from Biology
Chapter 2 – The Answer from Law
Chapter 3 – The Answer from Progressive Advocacy
Part II. Sex Matters
Chapter 4 – Sex is Good!
Chapter 5 – Sex Just Is (Like Age)
Chapter 6 – Sex Is Still A Problem (Like Race)
Chapter 7 – The (Un)Lawfulness of Classifications on the basis of Sex and Gender
Chapter 8 – The Politics of Sex and Gender
Chapter 9 – A Commonsense Approach
In my next four posts, I'll draw from different chapters to highlight four of several issues that may be of particular interest to readers of the Volokh Conspiracy:
Tuesday's post, What is 'Sex'? focuses on the fascinating collision among the efforts from science and medicine to grow the body of evidence that allows us to know sex better so that we can be smart—not sexist—about the differences between sex and gender; from law to denude sex of the unscientific inferences and cultural artifacts that have operated over time especially to subordinate and marginalize women; and from progressive academia and advocacy to describe all sex differences as 'myth and stereotype' and then to reimagine sex as gender—but this time as gender identity and expression—in service of different goals: (for some) liberty and equality for trans people and (for others) a sex-blind society.
Wednesday's post, This Crossroads Moment, highlights the central modern question for law and policy: whether to take the final step in the historical sequence from structural sexism to sex skepticism—where the Supreme Court left us in 1996 in United States v. Virginia—to sex blindness, where progressives have long wanted us to go. In 1996, the Court rejected this final move; how should we respond today?
Thursday's post, The Language Wars, focuses on how trans advocates and their allies have worked to control the words we can use to speak about sex and gender. The question that rang round the world on the occasion of then-Judge Ketanji Brown-Jackson's confirmation hearings, "Can you provide a definition for the word 'woman'?" derives from these efforts and the right's response to the language land grab.
Friday's post, Life in the Trenches, describes the politics of sex and gender as I've experienced them in academia over the last several years. Early on the debates were mostly on the substance, but they quickly became part of the broader ones about academic freedom, free speech, civil discourse, and the role of the university in society.
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Reminder: Sex isn't "assigned" at birth, it's observed and recorded. "assign" implies an arbitrary, discretionary act, while what doctors do on birth is neither arbitrary nor discretionary.
Probably the most disturbing thing about this whole mess, after the irreversible surgical and chemical mutilations, is how successful these lunatics have been at forcing the use of their preferred terminology in the face of objective reality.
What is your opinion with respect to superstition- or ignorance-based irreversible surgery that mutilates infants (circumcision)?
Dykes versus Trannies, Film at Eleven.
Just another day at a white, male, conservative blog.
Carry on, clingers.
"Probably the most disturbing thing about this whole mess . . . is how successful these lunatics have been . . . . "
I love it when you acknowledge losing.
I love it when your insults acknowledge your lack of an actual argument.
I'm a libertarian, of course I have practice losing.
I'm a libertarian, too!
(At the Volokh Conspiracy, everyone is a libertarian . . . or "often libertarian" or "libertarianish" or (mostly) just "faux libertarian.")
When you notice something completely trivial you're not actually obliged to find a way of framing it to make it seem like it's a devastating loss for you.
'forcing the use of their preferred terminology'
Which really puts the sheer scale of the threat faced by Brett in perspective. They have their own terms of art and forms of expression, and other people dealing with them adopt them out of respect and for ease of communication. Horrifying. The end is nigh.
They don’t have a problem with preferred proper nouns, but preferred pronouns? Holy shit!
I know... I love how poor Nate has to get a permission slip now in order for the teachers to be allowed to call him Nate instead of Nathaniel just because the right's culture war is afraid that his real name might be Nancy.
And one’s sex as observed at birth has literally nothing to do with being trans, except to the extent that it correlates with one’s actual sex. If someone’s sex is incorrectly observed at birth, that doesn’t make them trans.
And if the foundation of your argument is bullshit, it’s likely that the rest is too.
This is why this social justice stuff is more like a cult than an exercise in reasoning.
'And one’s sex as observed at birth has literally nothing to do with being trans,'
To them, their 'observed' sex is the entire problem, and it starts from birth. There is literally no need for you lot to keep having shitfits over this, it's nothing whatsoever to do with you.
But sure, leave the thoughts, feelings and experiences of trans people completely out of the equation and impose your own preconceptions and strictures on it, which are obviously way more relevant to what it means to be trans. Funny, if you were actually engaged in 'reasoning' the flaw would be obvious there.
“To them, their ‘observed’ sex is the entire problem, and it starts from birth.”
No, you’re confused, which is it uncommon for cult members, because you’ve been indoctrinated by stuff designed to mislead you.
The entire problem is their actual sex. If a doctor holds up a little boy and says “It’s a girl!”, and marks girl on the birth certificate, that observation is going to be little help to the boy if he develops gender dysphoria. It might smooth a few things over, but in general his experience will be very much like any other boy with gender dysphoria.
‘No, you’re confused, which is it uncommon for cult members, because you’ve been indoctrinated by stuff designed to mislead you.
The entire problem is their actual sex.’
See, you think you somehow *know* definitively what trans peoples’ problems are with absolutely no reference to the experiences of trans people whatsoever. You actually think the way *they* express *their* sense of their internal dysphoria is wrong, and you know how to do it right, and anyone who disagrees is in a cult. The arrogance is... well. it's typical.
This is why this social justice stuff is more like a cult than an exercise in reasoning.
Don't put this Doriane lady in our camp! If there's one thing that both sides of the trans debate can agree on it's that she's full of shit.
I'm not familiar with her work, and haven't read enough to form an opinion, but if she's managed to honk off both sides of the issue, that might just be an indication that her critiques are correct.
Legally the trans activist are in the right. We're not allowed to discriminate based on sex. Judges have made a lot of rulings trying to come up with a legal way to have same sex sports teams and bathrooms, but they were never logically sound.
Long term, I see this ending the single "gender" spaces permanently. Stalls in changing rooms and bathrooms will become the norm. Sports will take longer, but as people with daughters stop being able to expect their daughters to be able to excel at sports or get sports scholarships, women's sports leagues will lose popularity and become even more niche than they are now.
"Legally the trans activist are in the right. We’re not allowed to discriminate based on sex."
See, this is one of the signs that old age is catching up to me. I actually remember the ERA being defeated. I know rationally based on judicial rulings that this has to be a false memory, but still, there it is: I still remember the states refusing to ratify that amendment.
It's hell getting old, and having your memory fail.
Do you think that there might be another law or laws that restrict sex-based discrimination?
At the federal level? Not one with any constitutional basis.
So a blend of Schoolhouse Rock’s I’m Just a Bill with the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Ay Laddie, then you’re no true Bill! (set to a 1970’s pop-rock beat.)
No, just the Schoolhouse Rock.
No, it's BrettLaw - your version of the Constitution neatly cuts out all the laws you don't want to acknowledge.
But the law doesn't care about Brett's position, agree or now. Plenty of laws I don't like, but I acknowledge and talk about them.
" as people with daughters stop being able to expect their daughters to be able to excel at sports or get sports scholarships,"
The way that people with sons largely have?
What's the difference?
Bring Annie to know before they even try. Most kids don't have what it takes to excel, but you won't know that until they try. Having hope encourages people to take a step into the sports world.
Legally they've created a real paradox. How can you ban sex discrimination and carve out female-only sports, while at the same time allowing any male to "identify" as a female and participate in female-only sports?
They are incompatible. Watching all the quibblers outdo themselves, twisting themselves into knots, is the only useful part of the ordeal.
To put it another way, a group that has fought for centuries for equality and against discrimination do not have to explain or justify helping and supporting another group who have experienced the same. They only have to point out that misogyny and transphobia are inextricably connected.
In most sports, allowing biological males to self-identify as women and compete in women's sports against biological females is tantamount to allowing heavyweight boxers self-dentify as welterweights and compete against welterweights.
I have seen reports of biological female sports players injured and sidelined by trans competitors.
I have read stories where low rated male competitors in swimming and power lifting declare themselves trans then take first place in women's sports from female competitors who could not match male biological advantages no matter how hard they trained.
This is not fair.
As Hansel's Mom said "To be free, one must give up a part of oneself." And for trans, that would be giving up competing against girls where male biology gives them an unfair advantage.
Concur with your assessment of males competing in women sports.
However, men in female sports is quite trivial when looking at the irreversible damage done advocating a medical treatment the permanently prevents any chance for the afflicted to return to normal.
It's not just bone density and muscular strength, either. I've seen women get hurt in gymnastics in accidents that wouldn't have seriously injured a guy due to joint hyperextension; Both the elbows and knees in women go slightly past 180 degrees, making them much more prone to bending them backwards in accidents. In men those joints don't bend quite as far, making that sort of injury much less likely.
They carried a girl out on a stretcher in my gymnastics class after she came off the high bar wrong and dislocated both elbows.
Brett - my point was that the current fad treatment for those suffering from gender confusion is barbaric and creates permanent damage.
Your point on female injure rates is valid. Female injury rates and severity of injuries is definitely higher than male injury rates for comparable levels of contact and trauma.
" Female injury rates and severity of injuries is definitely higher than male injury rates for comparable levels of contact and trauma."
And when you mix men and women it spikes for the women.
Concur
And the obvious solution, I’m sure you’ll both agree, is to pretend that transgender people don’t exist, and deny medical treatment to any who claim to need it, since they’re obviously divorced from reality. Right?
Randal
nobody is denying the existence of individuals suffering from mental illnesses including those suffering from gender confusion. Your accusation is the typical fall back position to advocate a treatment that causes and / or prolongs the mental illness. I like most everyone else is strongly in favor of the most effective treatment possible.
I like most everyone else is strongly in favor of the most effective treatment possible.
Then you’re obviously misinformed about what that treatment is. You ought to take your politics out of other people’s medical decisions, is my advice to you, Sonja.
https://segm.org/Denmark-sharply-restricts-youth-gender-transitions
Randal you and other advocates are far behind the learning curve. Most european medical authorities have come to realize that the prescribed medical treatment is likely causing more harm.
There was a disturbing uptick in diagnoses of transgender minors over the last few years. I'm glad to see that is being addressed. The treatments shouldn't be entered into lightly, and the evidence suggests that minors were being overtreated.
That doesn't mean the treatments themselves are improper, when appropriately applied.
That doesn’t mean the treatments themselves are improper, when appropriately applied.
Just as sawing the heads off the smaller kids in kindergarten is not improper, when appropriately applied.
You guys don't even have any alternative treatments to propose! At least the covid whackjobs came up with ivermectin. What've you got?
'Most european medical authorities have come to realize that the prescribed medical treatment is likely causing more harm.'
Those decisions are only designed to cause harm and bring joy to people like you.
Yeah, I've seen reports of a trans woman beating over a hundred cis women in a marathon! (She came 500th.) A trans woman entering a weightlifting competition sure to utterly dominate! (She doesn't make it past the first round.)
I have a question for Professor Coleman
Every few months, we hear about a professor being outed for falsely claiming to be black, Indian, or some other non-white race. In some cases the people involved were told they were a particular race by their parents and believed it all their lives, but nonetheless get met with fury for dishonestly appropriating another race’s heritage. The New Yorker has published several articles on this in the last few years.
My question is, is there any legitimate reason why transracial people should be treated any differently from transgender people? Bostock’s claim to legitimacy was strict textual construction, and there’s no textual difference between the provisions for race and gender. Shouldn’t a member of one race be equally protected from job loss or harassment for identifying with or acting like a member of another race?
In addition to the legal question, my second question is, what’s the moral or ethical justification for treating the two differently? As a complete outsider, somebody who may as well have been hiding under a rock, I just don’t see why people who denounce discrimination against transgender people turn around and express such venemous hate for transracial people. To me, hiding as I am in my under-a-rock position, the venom seems indistinguishable from what they were loudly denouncing just a moment before.
The whole thing seems to come from assuming race has a biological basis but gender doesn’t. But why? The scientific evidence both that there there are lots of in between people, and that people with similar genetics can have different identities, seems if anything even greater for race than for sex.
Is it all just political ideology?
Why are the same people who are eager to denounce people who claim sex has a biological basis, equally eager to denounce people whose racial identities and roles they deem transgressive?
"The scientific evidence both that there there are lots of in between people,"
On race? Absolutely. 200 years from now race will be a quaint non-issue, at the rate we're genetically mixing.
On sex? Nah. People who are biologically "in between" are actually pretty rare. Advocacy groups say 1.7% of the population, but of course it's in their interest to exaggerate the frequency, so they use a VERY inclusive definition.
Using a strict medical definition of the term, biologically "inter-sex" people are about 0.018% of the population, maybe about 6,300 in the entire country. That's "lots" if you're booking a hotel for a convention, it's a fairly small number otherwise.
And even those scant few intersex people aren't actually "in between". Intersex people all have a sex (determined by the SRY gene), even if their sex isn't obvious to the observer.
And no intersex person has ever been fertile as both sexes. So human "hermaphrodites" don't actually exist.
Intersex people all have a sex (determined by the SRY gene), even if their sex isn’t obvious to the observer.
Well sorta. The SRY gene is the primary genetic trigger for sex differentiation (in a large class of animals) but in some cases the SRY gene is defective - this is one of the causes of Swyer Syndrome. So having an SRY gene almost always results in you having a sex (male.) But not always.
What sex you have (if any) may be caused by genes (in most animals) but your sex is part of your phenotype, not your genotype. It is what it is, however it is caused. Most of the 0.018% or so medically described as "intersex" are not inter-sex. because they have clearly identifiable gonads of one sex or the other.
Those - much fewer - who have no such identifiable gonads - which includes Swyer Syndrome folk - are neither male not female. They're not really inter-sex either they're just duds, reproductively speaking.
Isn't it still accurate to say that sex is determined by the SRY gene? Always, or nearly always. That is, you are male if you have a functioning SRY gene, and female otherwise.
Nearly always. But you need to think of gene action as if it’s a game of football.
1. you pass to the wide receiver in the end zone (who is playing the part of the SRY gene here) – he drops it. No touchdown because of defective wide receiver.
2. you pass to wide receiver but the defensive end (another gene) blocks the pass. No touchdown. The defensive end gene has blocked the action of the wide receiver gene.
3. you pass to the wide receiver and the defensive end would have blocked the pass but the running back’s dummy run distracted his attention. Wide receiver catches the ball and scores the touchdown. The running back gene has blocked the action of the defensive end gene which would otherwise have blocked the action of the wide receiver gene.
There are plenty of genes whose action is to regulate the action of other genes. So it isn’t as simple as you flip the gene and it’s done.
Thus – in theory – you can have a fully functioning SRY gene but its action is blocked by some other gene that has malfunctioned.
So, yes, as a general rule, if you have a Y chromosome, you’re male – because as a rule that means that you have an SRY gene. Though it doesn’t guarantee it. And even if you definitely have a functioning SRY gene that doesn’t guarantee that some other gene might not block its action.
Gene action is complex and there can be all sorts of odd things happening. Very occasionally.
That's right. Intersex and hermaphrodites do not really exist. Even if they did, they would have no bearing on the trans issues, as nearly all trans people started as clearly one sex.
Concur - virtually all gender confused individuals started out life believing their gender reflected their biological sex. Unfortunately, Gender confused individuals typically suffer from multiple mental illnesses.
'Why are the same people who are eager to denounce people who claim sex has a biological basis, equally eager to denounce people whose racial identities and roles they deem transgressive?'
During Jim Crow black people who could 'pass' for white went down into the South and made records of lynchings and racial murders. Funnily enough, if they'd been exposed 'denunciation' is the least they could have expected.
'My question is, is there any legitimate reason why transracial people should be treated any differently from transgender people?'
Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition. I'm aware of nothing equivalent in terms of being 'transracial.'
"According to the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), gender dysphoria is a recognized medical condition that involves psychological distress caused by a mismatch between a person's gender identity and the sex they were assigned at birth."
Psychologists have stated in the manual of mental disorders - a description of a mental illness,
I don't think anyone denies it's a medical condition, aka an illness... least of all the people suffering from it. More stupid strawmen.
there is no question that it is a mental illness. The problem is with the current activist treatment. Its a treatment that prolongs the suffering by preventing the return to normalcy
This is fanatacism - exactly the 'erase gender diversity' mentioned above. Conversion therapy is abusive and traumatising quackery, but it's better than being trans, apparently.
It's not activist treatment. It's the best treatment. Believe me, if there were a more effective treatment, people would be all over it.
You, Joe, are the one promoting an activist, unmedical, unscientific treatment.
There's a psychiatric component to it, who has ever said otherwise? Ypu seem to think that this proves something, that if you can nail it down as a mental disorder then it can be safely dismissed and trans people left untreated.
Right, the answer is what Nige said. Both race and sex are based in biology, but for whatever reason, there are in fact transgender people. There aren’t transracial people.
A notion that might be helpful is that everyone has a built-in understanding of both genders, despite being just one sex or the other themselves. So it’s at least plausible to see a mechanism by which a person’s brain is wired to identify as the opposite gender to their sex. The basis is all there in the genes.
But your genes aren’t going to tell you about other races. How would a white person’s brain have any intrinsic knowledge of Black vs. Pacific Islander vs. Mongol?
This is also why little credence is given to people who claim to be some kind of novel gender, unrelated to male or female. How can you intrinsically identify with something that doesn’t exist?
Race consists of broad and vaguely define genetic groupings with wide overlap on the edges. The races aren't really natural categories. It's not a biologically self-sustaining phenomenon, either, it's a product of genetic drift combined with relative geographical isolation, and that isolation started breaking down many centuries ago. Current ease of travel has the world population in a blender set on frappe.
I'm serious when I say that in a couple hundred years our current obsession with race will be a historical curiosity, racial groups will have blended to the point where very few people will correspond to today's racial groupings, and it won't have any more significance than eye color today. I mean, barring germ line genetic engineering getting serious, of course, in which case things could get really funky.
So in a very real sense, there's nothing fundamental there to be "trans" about! Even if people freak out over light colored people putting on dark makeup...
By contrast, sex is rather binary in nature, with very few exceptions indeed you're biologically male, or biologically female, period, end of story. We're not frogs, after all. Sex is permanent, real, and deeply significant.
So, when some guy claims that they're really a girl, or visa versa, it's a significant claim, and significantly in conflict with objective reality. So people care.
'So people care.'
Someone's not conforming to our rigid gender rules! Get them!
Somebody is divorced from reality. That does tend to cause concern. You can sort of anticipate the actions of those who are in synch with reality, even people like me can mostly pull that off. But the deranged are wildcards, they worry people.
But the deranged are wildcards, they worry people.
Sooo... get 'em!
Someone isn't conforming to Brett's sense of reality! Get them before Brett's entire world crumbles!
Trans Derangement Syndrome?
It's not divorced from objective reality. It is objective reality. That's your problem Brett. You're defining your reality to exclude transgenderism, when it quite clearly exists.
Transsexism doesn't exist.
Unless it means being sexist against yourself.
There are plenty of anecdotal reports of transracial people. When people are in a group that’s so stigmatized that academics who are found to be in the group immediately get dismissed with catcalls hurled at them, don’t you think that makes formal academic study of them a little difficult to do?
Would you he prepared to say that there was no such thing as homosexuals until the Kinsey study? That they all had a mental disease until the DSM was modified in the 1970s? The history suggests that relying on the academic establishment for disinterested knowledge about a group the academic establishment itself highly stigmatizes does not exactly have a highly reliable track record.
I would suggest transracial people perhaps “don’t exist” in the same way homosexuals “didn’t exist” pre-Kinsey, when a respectable university would be likely to fire someone who proposed formally studying perverts in a non-judgmental way. The anecdotal reports do suggest they’re there.
Could be. It’s still hard to imagine a mechanism. I mean, there are certainly a lot of people who wish they were a different race, but that seems more like people who wish they were a different gender, which is different from being transgender.
It's like tiny pianist was saying elsewhere. Raising a boy as a girl doesn't make a kid transgender. Same with race.
I think there's a different conversation to be had, which is more like... even if race has a genetic component, it's not relevant, and race is more of a cultural thing anyway, so let people be part of whatever racial culture they want. Sure, maybe, but I don't think that line of thinking has any parallels to transgenderism.
On the legal issue, Bostock was decided strictly on behavior, without regard to the causes of that behavior. So Bostock doesn’t recognize the distinction you’re making between “medical” behavior motivated by some causal mechanism and plain old ordinary behavior motivated by plain old ordinary free will. Bostock treats them both the same. It doesn’t look under the hood. It doesn’t ask why a person wants to exhibit appearance or behavior characteristics commonly attributed to the “other” sex. It doesn’t matter why.
So logically, the same principle would apply to race.
The second issue is that lack of a known causal mechanism isn’t evidence a phenomenon doesn’t exist. There are many things we know exist but don’t know why. Medicine is as good an area as any. There are many diseases – many cancers, for example – where we simply don’t know what causes them. It’s a normal part of science. There is usually a period, sometimes a long one, between first discovering a phenomenon and understanding what causes it. The fact that scientists happen to know less about some things than others doesn’t make the less understood things any less real.
When in 1847 Ignaz Semmelweis discovered that washing hands reduces surgery-related deaths, his paper was rejected as unscientific because he couldn’t explain WHY this would be so. He had only observation, not a causal theory. Doctors of the time harrumphed and went right on keeping their hands dirty.
It’s now generally recognized that this conception of what science requires was really, really stupid.
I think you're right from a legal perspective. I was answering your second question about a moral & ethical distinction.
The second issue is that lack of a known causal mechanism isn’t evidence a phenomenon doesn’t exist.
Sure, which is why I said it could exist. But without any evidence that it does exist, I don't think there's any moral or ethical obligation to entertain the notion.
Or the way it was confidently asserted that there were no homosexual psychologists until members of the GayPA decided to out themselves during the DSM revision debates.
Gays were closeted but eventually demanded their rights. If being transracial is on par as a trait, we will (or would already have) seen a transracial rights movement. Don't hold your breath.
Examples:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/03/04/a-professor-claimed-to-be-native-american-did-she-know-she-wasnt
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-layered-deceptions-of-jessica-krug-the-black-studies-professor-who-hid-that-she-is-white
How ironic that feminism has circled all the way back to the flip side of what it originally opposed, so that now men get to define for everyone else what it means to even be a woman.
Huh. Gotta admit, didn’t see that one coming.
Even having read 1984 and Alice's adventures with word twisters didn't prepare me for the hypocrisy. It is breathtaking how far they will twist language to mean anything.
Feminists have been supportive and inclusive of of trans people for decades. Trans women get to define what it means to be a trans women. Only weirdos are threatened by this, and frankly they’re lying, they know the only real threat is that a vulnerable minority group might not be getting enough hate.
Many don't have a problem with it. But sports teams and records may be a bridge too far. The whole point was to separate out athletics where women weren't left in the dust.
This will be reversed at some point, once many world and Olympic records have fallen.
Or maybe the current women's sports will be turned into a trans women's sports, with born women being given, how graceous, a new place of their own.
I have no elegant solution where trans women should play. But lining up to crush womens' world records ain't it.
Trans Women: We can't compete against men, we'll be crushed!
Traditional Women: We know your pain.
Women's sports have been discouraged, marginalised, neglected, fetishised, underfunded, and plagued by sexual predators. Men sure do like to stack the deck in their favour. Now 90% of the objections come from cis men being worried they might find themselves watching womens sports and not know if they're ogling any trans women, which might make them gay.
Yes, I think you nailed it.
So let's marginalize them more by letting men compete against them.
It'll only marginalise them if cis men get to decide who can and can't compete.
In fact, the whole reason we are right here is because nobody wants to create a proper trans women category. So let's do it and bite the bullet.
Let there be a trans women sports cagegory!
This is no more discriminatory than women's vs. men's categories. Which is to say, a little bit, but based on facts of reality, which does not care.
There. Now I have an elegant solution. You're welcome.
That is the quickest way to ensure that fully half of the Olympic medals go to trans people.
Trans people have been in sports for decades. They have failed to dominate as feared. There’s no reason not to let them continue.
No one said they couldn't continue. In the correct category, obviously.
Derp.
Megan Rapinoe would welcome? Yeah, after she's already retiring. She wouldn't feel the same way if some trans were taking her spot.
That’s right. Rapinoe only favored the female-identifying men after she was sure that we would not have to compete with them.
I'm going with a comment I saw in a story once,"People have sex(ex), language has gender(s)".
I do not see any useful purpose to distinguishing sex and gender. Feminists used to advocate this distinction, but it appears that many in the trans lobby hate. Most of the public has not accepted the distinction, and the law cannot cope with it. So forget about it.
Which one should they use for prisons?
I emphasize caused by because sex isn't our chromosomes, our gonads, and/or our gonadal hormones. Rather, these are part of a much larger set of sex characteristics two of whose functions are to drive human sexual development and to sustain our bodies thereafter.
Yes, the causes and consequences of sex, including derivative sexually differentiated characteristics, constitute a fascinating melange, but these are not what sex itself consists of. (Sex is a category describing gamete type, which by extension can be used to describe the reproductive type of an organism possessing that gamete type.)
But no - this melange has not been assembled "to sustain our bodies thereafter." And there's only one function. Not two. Reproduction. All derivative sexually differentiated characteristics are secondary adaptations which have evolved to assist the organism's efforts to reproduce, using its gametes.
Since reproduction with eggs, and reproduction with sperm, is often optimised with slightly different auxiliary equipment and strategy, once you have anisogamy, you have an evolutionary driver for more general phenotypic sex differentiation than just the gametes.
None of our secondary sexually differentiated characeristics evolved to assist breathing, feeding, defecating, escaping predators, bricklaying or writing sonnets. They evolved because they assisted reproduction.
None of our secondary sexually differentiated characeristics evolved to assist breathing, feeding, defecating, escaping predators, bricklaying or writing sonnets. They evolved because they assisted reproduction.
Well, you're wrong about that, at least with respect to bricklaying and writing sonnets. I'm pretty sure you're wrong for all of them, now that I think about it.
Your lack of actual argument is evident from your fault to support your assertion in the slightest way.
Thank you for pointing out another flaw in Lee's argument.
The culture war between those on the left who want to erase sex and those on the right who want to erase gender diversity has only ratcheted up.
Congrats, you framed your entire book as a battle between two strawmen. Of course your approach is “common sense” in that context.
Should we kill all the prisoners, or set them all free? Read my new book for a common-sense middle-ground approach!
I've never heard anyone on the left say they want to erase sex, whatever that even means, while hostility to trans people from the right is only getting worse. But 'both sides.'
Hostility yes, but erase? Someone on the right was taking issue with that language on the other thread, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that "erase" is an overstatement.
I have no idea what 'erasing sex' is even supposed to mean, but we can see right-wing legislatures pass laws aganst trans people all the time, and Trump promising to roll back trans rights, so 'erasing' them seems like something they're pretty intent on. People forget they were victims of the Holocaust too.
So far, I find myself as long having been in alignment with much of Professor Colman’s general approach…will be interested in the series to see if that continues. At the moment, my views can be summarized as follows:
• Transgenderism is a complex and sometimes puzzling phenomenon, our understanding of which is evolving.
• It is predicated on notions of gender performance and gender identity that are in some ways logical and rational, in others contradictory or incoherent.
• To a major extent, my own early and consistent trans-inclusive attitude is a deliberate choice grounded in fundamental civil liberties and a live-and-let-live, benefit-of-the-doubt approach, rather than following what Ms. Coleman refers to as progressive advocacy (as far as that ideology may exist/be relevant).
• A range of legitimate perspectives exists on whether and when gender-affirming care might be appropriate for minors, considering the range of treatment options, and acknowledging varying rationale in the commitments of the therapists and doctors who provide such services.
• Some trans women who completed puberty as testosterone-laden males, sometimes retain a genuine advantage in competitive athletics over non-trans girls and women. That's being researched and adjusted in the scientific, sports-medicine and athletic competition groups (i.e., analysis, metrics, hormone balancing, etc). They're making some progress but, at least in high-stakes competition, there's not yet a consistently manageable fix. We may or may not eventually get there.
So, I think there's legitimate room for debate. But…what debate is possible with those:
• Who categorically refuse to acknowledge any reality that includes transgendered individuals?
• Who support efforts to ban any gender-affirming care for minors, or any transwomen participation in athletics with non-trans women (at any age or competition level),
• Who would restrict public education so none of this is ever discussed in schools?
• Whose relevant information diet is likely the current talking points about how transgenderism is the enemy of Christianity and trans students are all ticking time bombs?
There is a line to draw.
A line to draw? You are saying that you refuse to debate those who disagree with you. Okay, but you are the narrow-minded one. People have good reasons for those opinions that you do not like.
If your first and last approach to debate, especially given the wealth of possible subtopics in his comment, is to pre-emptively whine that he won't debate you, then he's probably right not to bother debating you.
Lots of room—on both my right and left—to debate the first five. And indeed, I've engaged in considerable debate—to both my right and left—on these topics.
Not much room, however, in the absolutism of the others. I don’t debate Flat-Earthers either.
Having attempted to debate Roger, I can vouch that it's like debating a pillow.
"They’re making some progress but, at least in high-stakes competition, there’s not yet a consistently manageable fix."
It's not clear to me that the concept of a 'fix' is even intelligible. To the extent the biological differences are permanent, what are we talking about? Harrison Bergeron style handicaps?
To the extent the biological differences are reversible, it would be medical malpractice to intervene to degrade somebody's strength or bone density.
I assume he just means, come up with measurable, objective standards which are neither dramatically over- nor under-inclusive.
It is also not clear that anything needs to be fixed. Athletic competitions have divided by sex for a long time. Now some want to divide by self-chosen gender identity, whatever that is. They could just go back to dividing by sex.
That's the obvious answer, of course.
Why? To appease a bunch of cis men who have no interest in women's sport but are on an anti-trans crusade?
Most of the complaints about trannies in women's sports are coming from the women athletes, who don't appreciate having to compete with men, and REALLY don't appreciate having some asshole exposing his junk in the woman's locker room.
There are some women athletes complaining, a lot more who are supportive of trans people, you dickhead, and mostly it’s dickheads like you obsessed with peoples’ junk ranting and raving.
"• Who categorically refuse to acknowledge any reality that includes transgendered individuals?"
They obviously exist as human beings. Any they can call themselves whatever they want. What I object to is the use of the government's police power to force anyone else to indulge their fantasies/mental illnesses. If anything, they need treatment, not special rights.
"• Who support efforts to ban any gender-affirming care for minors,"
Like any medical procedure, gender-affirming care should not be banned for minors, but that wasn't the issue; the issue (until recently) was that "gender-challenging" care was effectively banned for minors in the UK and several US states.
"• [O]r any transwomen participation in athletics with non-trans women (at any age or competition level),"
Nobody needs to ban transgender athletes from competing in the correct category--the market will do that, all on its own. What we need is for government, again, to butt out, based on the absence of any constitutional right to assign your own sex.
"• Who would restrict public education so none of this is ever discussed in schools?"
That's just what conservatives do.
"• Whose relevant information diet is likely the current talking points about how transgenderism is the enemy of Christianity and trans students are all ticking time bombs?"
I usually don't debate with religious nutters, either. Not sure what "ticking time bombs" refers to. Audrey Hale?
What I object to is the use of the government’s police power to force anyone else to indulge their fantasies/mental illnesses.
Do you have an example of this? I've never heard of it.
I've heard of the opposite, government's police power being used to force people not to indulge transgenderism. Do you also object to that?
‘What I object to is the use of the government’s police power to force anyone else to indulge their fantasies/mental illnesses’
The government, occasionally, gets around to, often imperfectly, protecting the civil rights of vulnerable groups who have been targeted by extremists. Blame the extremists doing the targeting.
To tell the truth, I find the very concept of transgenderism, if it is anything more than humored gender dysphoria, philosophically incoherent.
I'm a heterosexual male. I know what it means to feel like a male, it's what I am, so what I feel IS what it means to feel like a male. QED.
But I absolutely do NOT know what it means to feel like a woman. It's outside my experience, I have no knowledge of the internal sensation of womanhood, any more than I do the internal sensation of being a tree frog.
So, if I were suddenly seized by the notion that I really felt like a woman, how is that in any way sensible? Having no experience of feeling like a woman, for all I know what I'm feeling is just some aspect of feeling like a man!
The concept of a man feeling like a woman is void of meaning, without some objective reference to compare the sensation he is experiencing to! An objective reference which is absolutely absent.
The whole concept of transgenderism is philosophically incoherent at its base. As befits a notion born of mental illness in the first place...
Agreed.
But, is there any difference in feeling between one or the other, other than hormones and their effects ? Thus, there are differences in feeling male and female and in behavior based on those differences in hormones.
Why my father at age 5 decided he was a female or wanted to be one is a mystery. What became was his "viewpoint" of what a woman was based on the view he developed as a child, not as an adult, thus it was a view encompassing 'glamor' as being a woman. Eventually, he underwent surgery after several decades of whatever he went through to get surgery.
Obviously, I was born, as others were too, before his decision was made. But, it's not so these days as degenerate people want children to mutilate their primary being and function to become something wrong based on a child's view and with a child's brain.
If adults want to go against their creation, it's one thing we all can honestly debate, but not with children - Never. Waiting for adulthood must come first before any "treatment" is ever attempted to alter one's birth formation, for it is a one-time decision not to be taken lightly. I'm very glad such altering treatments were not available for my father in his minority, for many reasons.
The wake of our lives upon society gives it its life. And, to remove that ability is worse than abortion, for possibilities are never to be known.
'Waiting for adulthood must come first before any “treatment” is ever attempted to alter one’s birth formation'
This is arbitrary and ignorant.
Frontiers in Psychiatry: A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder
Fully 88% of boys with gender dysphoria had gotten over it by the time puberty was done. Only 12% were still dysphoric post puberty.
That means that if you start treatment before puberty is done, 88% of the people you're treating would have gotten over it and ended up normal if you'd just left them alone.
Given that fact, is is basically impossible to justify any treatment of gender dysphoria prior to the conclusion of puberty, and any treatment with long term effects is outright medical malpractice.
We’ve been through this before. That study shows most children referred to gender clinics do not get a dender dysphoria diagnosis, contra hysterical claims about children being pushed into it. Therefore the kids who are diagnosed get the treatment they need. I beleieve they call this ‘health care.’
Right, no man can feel like a woman. But even if he could, what reason is there for anyone else to play along?
What reason is there to single them out and subject them to satanic-panic fearmongering and hate?
They are not being "singled out" when they decide to compete under the wrong sex category. That's them singling themselves out.
I’m a heterosexual male. I know what it means to feel like a male
…
The concept of a man feeling like a woman is void of meaning, without some objective reference to compare the sensation he is experiencing to
You have no reference to what being a male is like either, and yet you know.
Consider that there might be people with an experience well outside what you personally can imagine; all it takes is basic empathy.
I'm not saying you need to agree on sports, I'm saying don't tell people that based on your life so far, they are philosophically invalid.
"You have no reference to what being a male is like either, and yet you know."
Of course I have a reference to that: I am one. I literally have no other reference.
This is circular.
No, it's tautological. Logical claims are, technically, either tautological, contingent, or contradictory.
Tautologies are unavoidably true, they just don't increase your knowledge of the world, being an expression of preexisting knowledge.
Contingent claims may be true, may be false, depending on real world facts. Establishing their truth value involves learning something about the world.
Contradictions are unavoidably false, and similar to tautologies, don't increase your knowledge of the world.
I'm beginning to figure out my problem here: You guys genuinely have no academic background in philosophy or predicate logic, do you? Engineers typically got pretty rounded educations back in the 70's...
Your problem here is trans people somehow independently worked out, possibly through trial and error, possibly through study and experimentation, that they are one gender on the inside and a different gender on the outside, and *your* philosophy is profoundly ill-equipped to deal with it.
Or possibly through delusion and fad, ever consider that?
No. I mean you can disparagingly use those terms all you want. It's stupid and disrespectful, since it's been studied for decades. They said the same thing about adhd and autism. Some people probably still do.
It's tautological, but irrelevant.
Sarc is right in one respect: you have no external reference of "manhood" to support your feeling of being a man. But that doesn't undermine your observation that you also have no external reference which could support contrary feelings of "womanhood".
I would say that I cannot know what it feels like to be a woman any more than I can know what it feels like to be a man. All I know is what it feels like to be me (and my biology indicates that I am a man). Colloquially, I might say that I know "what it feels like to be a man", but that feeling incorporates the knowledge of my biological destiny.
Other than that, agreed, and well put.
Hahahahahaha Brett. "If I haven't experienced it, it's impossible to experience." Spoken like a true fundamentalist bigot.
When you have no argument, call someone a bigot.
Didn't say that. For all I know, transgenders actually DO experience the subjective experience of being a member of the other sex. It's just that they have no basis for claiming that they do, because they unavoidably have only been what they are.
Suppose somebody walked up to you and claimed to be a "transchromate", explaining that, while they had color vision, their subjective experience of "red" was the same as what a normal person would experience for green, and visa versa.
Unless they'd been subjected to some exotic surgery that reversed the color connections in their retinas, it would be BS, because they have no way of KNOWING what anybody else's experience of color is like! Because they'd only had the experience they had had, and for all they know it's the same as everybody else's.
Same here: Since it's biologically impossible for people to have been one sex and become members of the other, nobody has access to both experiences to compare them.
And yet they do. You have declared something impossible, therefore it can't be happening, yet it happens every day.
'nobody has access to both experiences to compare them.'
People can, in fact, compare their experiences, people do it all the time.
Trans people are capable of both exploring and expressing their experiences, and sharing them with each other. It's the sort of thing that leads to it being studied, even if the Nazis tried to destroy the research. This isn't some weird alien mystery that suddenly sprung up overnight.
People claim to do things all the time that are actually impossible. It's not like it's logically impossible to be confused.
So a thing that happens all the time somehow remains in the category of the impssible. Of course you weren't there when Obama was born, and yet Obama exists.
As I explained elsewhere, Brett, people obviously do understand both genders innately. How the hell do you think you're attracted to women if you don't know what a woman is?
You got lucky in that your brain got wired to think you're a male and to be attracted to females. Some people get wired to think they're a male and be attracted to males. Some people get wired that way even though they have XX chromosomes.
You did not, as you suggested elsewhere, just look down at your pee pee one happy morning and say welp, guess I'm a guy! That is so so dumb. So dumb.
So again, given how dumb your actual logic is, I can safely assume that you're not really trying to think this through. You really just want to believe that because you can't imagine it, it's impossible. Which I maintain is a bigot's perspective on the world.
Or it's possible you just don't understand what I'm saying.
I'm hardly denying that there's such a thing as homosexuality. If anything it's the trans movement that's trying to insist that guys who are into other guys are really girls, not guys attracted to guys.
They are absolutely not insisting anything like that.
You said "red" blah blah "qualia" blah blah. The difference between red and female is that colors are largely symmetric... calling the color of blood green and leaves red doesn't really matter. So even if the brain has an innate understanding of red and green -- it does -- there's nothing other than shared references -- i.e. the color of blood -- to align on the vocabulary*. That's why it's nonsensical for someone to say "I think red is green." It just means they got the vocabulary backwards.
But the concepts of male and female are not symmetric. (And they too are obviously built-in.) You don't need to point to a guy and say "male," you can describe masculinity and agree that that's "male." (There's no way to describe "red" in the same way.)
Therefore it is meaningful for a male to say "I feel that I'm a female." Female is a meaningfully distinct built-in concept in human brains from male.
Get it now? Bejesus. You and your attempts at fancy words like qualia.
* There may actually be some asymmetries in colors that you could use to distinguish objective red from subjective red. Red is an alarming color, I suppose because it's the color of blood. If there's a physiological response to red, increased heart rate say, then you could test someone claiming to "see green as red and vice versa" by checking whether green, rather than red, triggered the same physiological responses.
Oh and, to the extent your point is that a male’s concept of female might be different from a female’s concept of female… that’s just totally retarded as Nige pointed out. A) Who cares? B) Anyone’s concept of female could be different from anyone else’s concept of female. Your sensation of “what it’s like to be a man” could be different from my sensation of “what it’s like to be a man.” The fact that that only matters to you when it’s a trans person’s sensation of “what it’s like to be a man” is more proof that this is all just a lame attempt to justify your bigotry.
"How the hell do you think you’re attracted to women if you don’t know what a woman is?"
The flaw in Brett's logic is that he doesn't actually know that he is a man (independent of his experience of his biology and of how other people treat him).
The flaw in your logic is that you don't need to know what you "are" to know what you're attracted to. You just are.
This doesn't make sense. People can surely feel things about themselves that aren't true. Foe example, I think I'm more handsome than Robert Redford and sing better than Pavarotti.
For a more serious answer, Bill feels like a loser because he only rescued two of the three toddlers from the burning building, he's wrong, but he still feels that way. Logic has nothing to do with it.
And if someone feels like an A trapped in a B body, that's what they feel. I'm OK with that. This doesn't mean I'll let A compete in B sports or serve their sentence in a B prison or whatever.
To use your example, anorexics, I think, really do feel they are fat.
‘philosophically incoherent.’
Oh no. Not Brett finding something philosophcally incoherent! He finds a *medical condition* philosophically incoherent. Can’t wait for the next entry, ‘contradictions in the ethical strictures of appendicitis.’
What you go on to write is, indeed, incoherent. I’m not even sure what it’s supposed to mean for people who experience gender dysphoria.
I get the impression you people are going to tune out completely if I mention qualia. Did you all sleep through philosophy in college?
It’s qualia all the way down, everything is incoherent at that level.
“How are you feeling?” the doctor asked.
“Well, I could be in what our language represents as intense dicomfort but how can I know whether what I feel as intense discomfort matches anyone else’s experience of intense discomfort and not something else entirely?”
“Just take the fucking laxative.”
Yeah, those charts with the faces from 1-10 are a joke. Ever since I had an infected eardrum rupture it's been "1" across the board.
Are you sure it wasn't a delusion or a fad?
You really don't understand my point. I'm not saying people can't know what they're feeling, I'm saying they can't know it's the same as what somebody ELSE is feeling.
If you've never been a woman, (And if you're a biological male you never have been.) you can't say that what you're feeling now is what a woman would feel.
You also can't know for sure what you feel as pain is the same as what abyone else feels as pain. Ultimately, this leads to solipsism. You've never been trans, yet you seem to think you're an authority on how they feel.
lol
A type of medical study I don't see mentioned in this context are studies of men on long-term hormone therapy to control prostate cancer. Such men have fulfilled all the technical requirements for hormone therapy for men to be considered women. But those studies show that even after several (three to five) years of such therapy, the average muscle difference between male and female pattern bodies is only reduced by 25%. In other words, the male who has undergone such treatments will still have 75% of the advantage over an equivalent body female that a male who has not undergone the therapy would have. This is why trans females in female sports cannot be a level playing field. Perhaps if sufficient allowance were made to have the trans female compete against women who have sufficient additional body mass to offset the innate difference it could be made to work, but with many sports there is no reasonable way to define such an offset.