Fringe Theory About Justice Alito

A neighborly spat elevated into a conspiracy-theory to disqualify Justice Alito.

During Justice Kavanaugh's confirmation hearing, one of his former clerks was seated behind him. And, on camera, she made an "okay" symbol with her hands. Then came the outrage. Critics of Justice Kavanaugh charged that the "okay" gesture was actually a symbol for white power. This suggestion was preposterous. The former clerk was Mexican on her mother's side, and Jewish on her father's side. She had never even heard of this apparent hate symbol--nor had I. But that didn't stop conspiracy theorists on the left from attacking then-Judge Kavanaugh.

That background brings me to the latest conspiracy theory involving a Supreme Court Justice. Jodi Kantor of the New York Times reports that outside the Alito household, the American flag was flown upside down in late-January 2021. (Not that it matters, by that time, the outcome of the election was already settled.) The headline blares, "At Justice Alito's House, a 'Stop the Steal' Symbol on Display."

What happened?

Around the 2020 election, a family on the block displayed an anti-Trump sign with an expletive. It apparently offended Mrs. Alito and led to an escalating clash between her and the family, according to interviews.

Justice Alito, contrary to his usual practice, actually commented on the story:

"I had no involvement whatsoever in the flying of the flag," Justice Alito said in an emailed statement to The Times. "It was briefly placed by Mrs. Alito in response to a neighbor's use of objectionable and personally insulting language on yard signs."

The story goes on to explain how flying the American flag upside down was some sort of message for "Stop the Steal." What is the proof? Random social media posts!

A flood of social media posts exhorted Trump supporters to flip over their flags or purchase new ones to display upside down.

"If Jan. 6 rolls around and Biden is confirmed by the Electoral College our nation is in distress!!" a poster wrote on Patriots.win, a forum for Trump supporters, garnering over a thousand "up" votes. "If you cannot go to the DC rally then you must do your duty and show your support for our president by flying the flag upside down!!!!"

Well if it is on Patriots.win, that must make it legit!

Anyone who has clerked in federal district court is familiar with the fringes on the flag. The so-called sovereign citizens insist that a flag with fringes proves that a court is in fact a military court. (In one of the cases I worked on, a person brought a federal suit to block enforcement of a parking ticket on the grounds that he was a sovereign citizen and had ambassadorial immunity.) It is a fringe theory, figuratively and literally.

Is there any evidence, whatsoever, that Justice Alito or Martha-Ann Alito, intended to fly the flag upside-down as some sort of secret signal to overturn the election? Of course not. My guess? Mrs. Alito used the upside-down flag as a symbol of distress to clap back at her neighbors. Justice Alito indicated that the attacks were "personal," and his wife felt helpless to respond. In any other context, this sort of feud would, at worst, start a flame war on Facebook. But when you're married to a Supreme Court justice, the flap makes the New York Times three years later.

Justice Alito's wife, and the other family members of the Court's conservatives, can never find peace:

The half-dozen neighbors who saw the flag, or knew of it, requested anonymity because they said they did not want to add to the contentiousness on the block and feared reprisal. Last Saturday, May 11, protesters returned to the street, waving flags of their own ("Don't Tread on My Uterus") and using a megaphone to broadcast expletives at Justice Alito, who was in Ohio giving a commencement address. Mrs. Alito appeared in a window, complaining to the Supreme Court security detail outside.

She is even being monitored in her window. Why on earth would anyone want this job? Or to be more precise, why would any conservative want this job?

I could waste my time by digging up quotes from Justice Ginsburg about President Trump, but you know the double standard.

Comments

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

What kind of un-American misfit displays an upside-down American flag on a suburban lawn?

Maybe it was John Eastman?

Carry on, clingers.

[Frank Drackman]

Revolting as usual

[Jason Cavanaugh]

"The story goes on to explain how flying the American flag upside down was some sort of message for "Stop the Steal." What is the proof? Random social media posts!"

Indeed. Evidence of it being used that way is in fact, evidence of it being used that way.

You're a terrible lawyer.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Random social media posts are evidence of social media posts, not actual events. You're an even worse lawyer.

[Nige]

It's evidence of a particular act of symbolism and its meaning, as spread across a major international communications system.

[iowantwo]

No.
in Science, dose makes the poison. Or attaining critical mass.
so a few social media post, dont reach the required critical mass.

While I am tech savy, I dont have Facebook, X, tik tok, instagram accounts. There are lots of platforms I barely know even exist. its a leap from " I found a few" to "what I found is proof. "

[Nige]

So, your ignorance of the symbol's usage and absence from the forums where the symbolism was propagated is sufficent to dismiss its use as a symbol when someone uses it as a symbol.

[Don Nico]

"in Science"
What the hell is the cap S in science?

"dose makes the poison" is known by indigenous shaman.

[damikesc]

"It’s evidence of a particular act of symbolism and its meaning, as spread across a major international communications system."

Nah.

There are morons who think, due to a 4chan prank, that the OK sign is REALLY racist.

Just because trolls online convinced absolute morons of something does not make it so.

[Nige]

It was all the racists using the ok sign with shit-eating grins that made them think it. That right-wing idiots are susceptible to 4chan pranks is well-established and not a defence.

[Scooter]

The only racists are people like yourself who feel that Jewish people don't belong on college campuses.

[Nige]

Hey, I'm not the one desperate to set cops on protest groups with Jewish kids in them so they can get beaten up and arrested.

[damikesc]

Can you cite the moment when the "OK" sign went from some anodyne thing to "WHITE NATIONALISM!!!"

Because nobody can find a point that did NOT involve a 4chan prank.

White nationalists breathe all smugly. Maybe you should cease so you won't be just like them.

[Nige]

Wow, this means a lot to you. Maybe you should try that seminal 1,000 page non-fiction masterpiece The Exact Moment The OK Sign Went From Some Anodyne Thing To WHITE NATIONALISM by I P Freely. It’s thoroughly researched and won the Pullitzer.

[damikesc]

Oh, I see how this works.

1) You made an idiotic comment.
2) I demonstrated that your idiotic comment is, in fact, idiotic.
3) You get pissy that I noticed it vand then go with “Why do you care so much?”

Ignoring, of course, that you have made equally as many comments. Just yours were, you know, stupid as all hell.

[Nige]

The only thing you demonstrated was your utter commitment to sheer ignorance as an intellectual defence.

[damikesc]

You're the one claiming the OK sign actually is racist instead of the sign of OK used for my entire life.

Might want to pump the brakes on your laughable self-assertion of intellect.

[Nige]

Don't get mad at me, get mad at the racists for appropriating it. Unless, y'know...

[jdgalt1]

It was a 4chan prank. Everyone who actually believes the gesture means “white power” has been fooled by one of the anonymous punks who hang out on 4chan.

As far as the use of an upside-down US flag (which is supposed to be a distress signal, per the US Flag Code) to mean the country needs saving, that usage is at least a century old. The earliest use I've seen is from the FDR administration and objects, vaguely, to New Deal legislation.

[Nige]

I'm sure there are strong feelings in the Alito household over the New Deal.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Huh? I suppose there are random social media posts of people displaying a "thumbs down" indicating their displeasure with the purported stolen election.

That doesn't magically transform the thumbs down into a stop the steal symbol.

If he's a terrible lawyer, that makes you... something worse.

[Krayt]

I dunno. A few assholes on some sketchy web sites make Ok signs at each other and suddenly ok signs are tainted.

[Nige]

It's like the parable of the Nazis turning up at your bar. Once the Nazis are there, and keep coming back, and there are more of them, it's a Nazi bar. You can kick Nazis out of your bar the first time they show up, you can't really stop them from adopting harmless hand-gestures as signs they flash around to show who they are and to taunt and troll ordinary decent people. It's not the fault of the people pointing out the obvious, that this is what they're doing, that they taint everything they touch.

Of course the problem is the people pointing this out are people who are woke and liberal, and you hate these guys more than the Nazis/white supremacists, so some people effectively defend the Nazis/white supremacists by gaslighting in their behalf. It's a seemingly small and trivial thing, of course, but once you decide to *start* covering for the Nazis/white supremacists...

[Brett Bellmore]

This is more like saying, "I saw a Nazi in a bar once, so going to a bar proves you're a Nazi."

[Nige]

You walk into a bar and it's full of Nazis, you say look at all these Nazis, and someone says what Nazis? Are you saying all bars are full of Nazis? That's just a prank! They're shaving their heads, getting swastika tattoos and sieg heiling to pwn the libs! You just got pwnd lib! By these Nazis!

[TwelveInchPianist]

I can't imagine that the original version of the parable is about Nazis.

[Nige]

Its a good parable. About Nazis.

[JasonT20]

The concept goes back at least to Karl Popper in 1945. He proposes that we can't tolerate the intolerant. (At least, not completely, and not always) That is because the intolerant have as their goal to create an atmosphere of intolerance. Thus, tolerating them is going to eventually eliminate the atmosphere of tolerance that we want to have.

A quick search did turn up a story exactly like Nige was describing that was posted to twitter in 2020. But the guy posting it was referencing something he experienced in 1981, so it could be that he has been telling that story for a long time. (Or, he was making it up from something he read long before.)

A slightly more complete version of the story:

Bartender tells the writer why he kicked out a Nazi that wasn't doing anything bad. Bartender explains that letting one 'nice Nazi' in leads to him bringing a couple of his other 'nice Nazi' friends. They become regulars and start showing up with more, and then more, and then more that aren't nice, until it is a Nazi bar. Basically, the bartender figures that the goal was to turn it into a Nazi bar gradually all along, so he has to 'nip it in the bud'.

[MeanGene]

So, if the alleged National Socialists have no outward identifying features, is the barkeep justified in requiring some kind of ideological purity test to make sure his patrons are not Nazis before he serves them? Is lack of swastikas, shaved heads, etc. any guarantee that it won't become a Nazi bar?

[Nige]

Why are you people so weird about Nazis?

[David Nieporent]

The concept goes back at least to Karl Popper in 1945. He proposes that we can’t tolerate the intolerant.

Illiberal leftists love to cite this as an argument against hate speech and such. But they are misreading and/or misrepresenting Popper.
(Er, that came out wrong; I'm not calling you an illiberal leftist. After a while the misconception spreads.) Popper was talking about violently intolerant people. Not people with bad ideas. You're not required to try to reason with someone who's lynching people they dislike.

[Nige]

You're also not required to reason with or be nice to Nazis just becase they, say, have some pretty good gardening tips.

[damikesc]

"It’s like the parable of the Nazis turning up at your bar. Once the Nazis are there, and keep coming back, and there are more of them, it’s a Nazi bar. You can kick Nazis out of your bar the first time they show up, you can’t really stop them from adopting harmless hand-gestures as signs they flash around to show who they are and to taunt and troll ordinary decent people. It’s not the fault of the people pointing out the obvious, that this is what they’re doing, that they taint everything they touch."

Speaking of Nazi bars --- look into the bar that Blinken went to in Ukraine to play that shitty Neil Young song.

OK, ALL Neil Young songs are, by default, shitty. That is just one of the many.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"It’s like the parable of the Nazis turning up at your bar. "

There was a Cheers episode about something similar.

Diane defended the 'Nazis' against claims that Cheers would turn into a 'Nazi' bar. Sam was very concerned, but eventually agreed with Diane and took the 'Nazi' side. Cheers didn't turn into a such a bar.

[Nige]

Was the episode called 'Cheer Hitler?'

[Nige]

Well obviously, thumbs down is too generic, that's why they went for stuff like the upside-down flag, duh.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Um, the upsize down flag is pretty generic too.

[LawTalkingGuy]

The fuck are you talking about?

If it was generic it wouldn't be remarkable at all.

There was literally a movie where the dramatic climax was about the act of hanging a flag upside down and what that is supposed to represent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Castle

[David Nieporent]

It represents generic anger. Not "Stop the steal" in particular. Hell, even the NYT acknowledged that, though they buried it in their article:

Over the years, upside-down flags have been displayed by both the right and the left as an outcry over a range of issues, including the Vietnam War, gun violence, the Supreme Court’s overturning of the constitutional right to abortion and, in particular, election results.

[Sarcastr0]

Generic *nationalist* anger.

[Sarcastr0]

It is part and parcel of the 'we're so patriotic we hate our country' strain of right-wingers. Freepers, patriot.win. You know the 'American Pinochet would be good' crowd.

I don't see it anywhere else. The left isn't into the flag like that, and moderates aren't gonna be fringe radical like that.

If you think it's generic, that says a lot about who you hang out with.

[LawTalkingGuy]

Even if he hangs out in a town exclusively populated by Groypers it wouldn't be generic since they all know the point of the act is to use transgressive symbolism to communicate something.

[Commenter_XY]

The left isn’t into the flag like that....

You're right Sarcastr0, the Left tends to burn flags, not be into them.

[Nige]

Y'know, you don't hear much about flag-burning any more.

[Commenter_XY]

Yeah, I suppose all those stories about American flags being burned at the Hamas rallies around the country must be untrue.

[Nige]

No, I mean, who gets upset about it any more? Used to be a real rage-trigger.

[tkamenick]

Dude, did you ignore that the NYT article itself (eventually) points out that both left and right have used it as a symbol of distress?

The first time I ever heard about a controversy over something like this was ~13 years ago, where a lefty in Wisconsin was flying it upside down to protest Scott Walker and Act 10 (the law reducing collective bargaining for government workers to near-federal levels), and a bunch of righties were complaining how disrespectful it was. The news then pointed out that the symbol had a long history and was actually approved in military usage as a sign of distress.

[Nige]

Maybe in your house.

[Jason Cavanaugh]

Congratulations, you've discovered that context matters! Now apply that to the practically never-used upside-down flag and the specific facts surrounding its usage as reported here.

You MAGA types keep pretending like you have brains, and then immediately give up the ruse. Don't you ever get tired of being stupid?

[LawTalkingGuy]

This is also very funny because he used the 1868 equivalent to a random social media post as evidence for his theory on the meaning of “officer of the United States.”

https://reason.com/volokh/2024/01/10/louisville-daily-journal-april-1868-the-president-is-not-an-officer-of-the-united-states/

[Rossami]

Evidence that someone called for it to be used that way in a completely different context is no evidence at all that it was intended to be used that way in this context.

With logic skills like that, you have no room to talk about someone else being a terrible lawyer.

[Jason Cavanaugh]

You're saying it's much more likely that Alito's wife is the only person in the history of this country to hoist the US flag upside down in response to an annoying neighbor, and it just so happened to coincidentally happen during a period where other people of her political persuasion were using that same symbol for another purpose?

That makes complete sense if you're a total moron. Oh, (R)ight....

[Brett Bellmore]

I'm having a hard time believing she's the first person to do that, given the population of the country.

[QuantumBoxCat]

"Justice Alito, contrary to his usual practice, actually commented on the story:"

Wall Street Journal Op-ed by Samuel A. Alito Jr., June 23, 2023: Justice Samuel Alito: ProPublica Misleads Its Readers

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Alito seems pretty dumb…remember he’s only on the Supreme Court because McConnell blocked the far more qualified Harriet Miers from being appointed because he was involved in a pecker measuring contest with Bush.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

I think you've not thought that meme out very well. No one measures peckers, that would settle the question.

[Stella Link the dog]

"No one measures peckers"

It seems that Stormy does.

[Estragon]

Unbelievable, frankly. I look forward to the excuses that will appear below. You huckleberries are not patriots. You are reactionary revolutionaries, and I bet mr and mrs Alito would embrace that label. Where does it end?

[Estragon]

And PS- Josh: one feature of this kind of movement is performative purges of loyalists. Cuidado, amigo

[TwelveInchPianist]

OK, dude.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Does anyone wish to try to advance an explanation for the Alitos flying an upside-down American flag that does not depict them as un-American, disaffected assholes?

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Yes! I do!

They were trying to goad you into looking even more gullible than usual.

[santamonica811]

By making the Alitos look like conspiracy-minded nutbags???

(Remember, Ginny Thomas and her repulsive and anti-American efforts to steal the election makes all normal people nervous. If the moronic and dangerous Mrs. Thomas had not acted so irresponsibly; perhaps people on the Left and in the center would not have reacted so strongly to the Alito household (lack of) virtue-signaling with its flag.

(I think it's absolutely fair to point out that--for example--the "OK" sign is used so often and frequently, in such a wide variety of situations, that it's probably folly to try and tie a particular use to some nefarious hidden agenda. But there are lots of code phrases and dog-whistles that do spread like wildfire, in the age of the internet. "Brandon" is a perfectly normal boy's name. And, if watching a sporting event, we'd all expect to hear, "Let's go, Brandon!", or the like. But only a true idiot would, here in 2024, respond to that sentence in anything *remotely* political by saying, "You're simply crazy for assuming it has anything to do with President Biden.")

[Brett Bellmore]

As I recall, it eventually emerged that the idea that the OK symbol was a secret white supremacy sign was actually a 4Chan prank.

[Michael P]

It's been known as a prank for six years: https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/how-ok-symbol-became-popular-trolling-gesture

Yet useful idiots still believe it.

[Nige]

Those useful idiots believed that a sign being flashed by white supremacists was a white-supremacist sign?

[Brett Bellmore]

And, as you can see, they still to this day pretend that they weren't really pranked.

[Nige]

It was all the white supremacists who took part in the 'prank' that told us it was a white supremacist thing.

[Brett Bellmore]

Yes, Nige: After you fell for it, some actual white supremacists started using it just to troll you. And you'll cling to that for the rest of your life to pretend you didn't really get pranked.

[Nige]

Literally nobody heard about it or cared about it *until* the white supremacists started flashing it about, at which point, as with so much right-wing shite, the 'prank' became real. You just conveniently choose to ignore that because you like white supremacists more than you like people who don't like white supremacists.

[damikesc]

White supremacists drink water.

Does not make water a white supremacist thing, Nige.

[Nige]

They drink water out of swastika mugs. So that makes all swastika mugs Nazi paraphenalia, does it? Do not make swastika mugs a Nazi thing damikesc.

[damikesc]

Wow, Nige, you really are horrible at this.

Just admit that you are lost.

[Nige]

I’m not the one wrestling with the appropriate markers that can be used to identify Nazis.

[damikesc]

You're the one claiming the OK symbol is one.

You, above all others, are doing that.

[Nige]

You can pretend they didn't go around flashing it for a while if it makes you feel better, I guess, they still did it.

[shawn_dude]

@Michael P ... not so fast. I give you a later ADL.org article on the same topic: https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/okay-hand-gesture

"By 2019, at least some white supremacists seem to have abandoned the ironic or satiric intent behind the original trolling campaign and used the symbol as a sincere expression of white supremacy, such as when Australian white supremacist Brenton Tarrant flashed the symbol during a March 2019 courtroom appearance soon after his arrest for allegedly murdering 50 people in a shooting spree at mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand."

It started as a hoax but morons will be morons and now it's used non-ironically by racists.

[damikesc]

You mean ONE guy in a global population of 6 or so billion people did something, ergo, the meaning of it is now inherently racist.

So, if a white supremacist is breathing, does that make breathing white supremacist?

[Nige]

Wow you really suck at spotting Nazis, apparently.

[damikesc]

Hey, that is not fair.

I punched the shit out of a dude who flashed the OK sign at me. More than once.

...or is it not cool to "punch a Nazi" now?

That you completely bought into a 4chan prank --- and that you keep HARPING ON HOW MUCH YOU DID SO --- speaks poorly...correction, nothing can speak more poorly of you than what you write as is

[Nige]

It sounds more like you punched someone who said, hey remember when white supremacists went around flashing the OK sign, and you flew into a rage.

[Nige]

So was pizzagate, but that didn't stop a lot of right-wingers adopting it as deadly serious, ultimately giving us Qanon, the weirdest fucking cult of modern times. A racist white supremacist 'joke' is still racist and white supremacist.

[Brett Bellmore]

Yeah, Pizzagate was pretty stupid. Not in a fundamentally stupid "could never happen" way, after Rotherham, but in a contingent, "Easily proven to be false" way, like the Steele Dossier.

Which you probably still believe.

[Nige]

‘Probably believe the Steele Dossier.’ What a meaningless statement to set beside Trump’s devoted cult built on lies conspiracies and Satanic panic. Yet we’re supposed to accept that white supremacists didn’t throw around the ok sign and stop-the-stealers didn’t use the upside down flag, because, why? Because it suits you to pretend that both aren’t exactly the sorts of behaviours the right goes in for, making up secret signals for each other like kids playing at spies. Hoping that one day Trump himself will return the signals to his devoted followers, and prove the Storm Is Coming.

[Brett Bellmore]

White supremacists probably drive compact cars and eat hamburgers, too. Does that make them indicators that you're a white supremacist?

[Nige]

The swastika is also a sacred Hindu symbol, does that mean that all Nazis are potentially being mistaken for Hindus and whenever you see a swastika you have to give the benefit of the doubt as to whether the person using it is a Hindu or a Nazi?

[hobie]

Brett, we all use the letter Q. But these days when a political figure uses it standalone, you need to damn well take notice. It is not hard to contextualize and compartmentalize the political use of ordinary symbols these days. This was no accident.

[Brett Bellmore]

"But these days when a political figure uses it standalone,"

We do not all use the letter Q standalone, though. But almost everybody uses the "OK" hand gesture.

In fact, (Just got certified for my impending vacation.) it's one of the official hand signals for scuba divers. We're all just a bunch of white supremacists, apparently.

Point is, this isn't some obscure gesture nobody did before, so you can't assign it an exclusive obnoxious meaning just by establishing that obnoxious people occasionally use it.

[hobie]

You may already be suffering from nitrogen bubbles, Brett. In the span of a year or two anyone probably gives the OK sign. But context matters. Jan, 2021. An activist judge. A republican. An apparently contemporary symbol of the insurrection. Occam's Razor. Congrats on your certification, BTW.

[Sarcastr0]

Nice try to Brett for shifting this to being about the letter Q and the OK signs, and not the facts at hand.

[Brett Bellmore]

"In the span of a year or two anyone probably gives the OK sign."

LOL! Not happening, Nige. It's an international symbol, and people aren't going to give it up just because a few lunatics in the US get a weird obsession about it.

[Brett Bellmore]

The OK gesture was literally in the OP, you did notice that, right?

The point is, flying the US flag upside down is, in the US, officially a distress signal. It's right there in the statutory Flag Code, which originated over a century ago, and was officially adopted into law in 1945.

And the hand gesture goes back to ancient Rome. Possibly further, that's how far back its use has been documented.

So your argument here essentially boils down to, "Once somebody I don't like uses a symbol, any use of that symbol proves you're a member of that group."

To say it is to refute it, your position is that stupid.

So, NO, we're going to go on using traditional symbols and gestures, to mean what they traditionally mean, even if bad people also occasionally use them, and you can just go pound sand.

[Sarcastr0]

It is in the OP, but it's a distraction up there as well.

The facts at hand are the facts at hand, and the OK sign thing is at best a lemma.

[Nige]

Hey. I’m all in favour of reclaiming the OK sign! I think the white nationalists got bored and put their hands back down the front of their pants anyway.

'And the hand gesture goes back to ancient Rome'

I've got some bad news about where the word 'fascist' comes from.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Hillary threw the Steele Dossier in the trash…McStain scrounged around in the garbage and got it out and handed it to the FBI.

[iowantwo]

Like q anon, pizza gate is far more the lexicon of the mainstream left, than conservatives

[Nige]

Affected ignorance of things you'd rather not acknowledge doesn't make them go away.

[Vryedni]

Popehat's Law of Goats applies.

[damikesc]

Wow, I remember a time when I gave the slightest iota of a shit of what Ken White thought of anything.

Man that was a long time ago.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Buddy! You need to step back and laugh at the Rev once in a while.

[Mr. Bumble]

The explanation is she tried to fly the Stars and Bars upside down but that didn't work.

[LawTalkingGuy]

This is actually pretty funny but you missed it by that much:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#First_flag

Confederate Battle Flag was the one you were looking for.

[bernard11]

It is unbelievable.

I mean, none of the cultists will even offer the slightest criticism - certainly Blackman won't.

Instead, they go for a flood of whataboutery and BS claims about the significance, etc.

Did Alito know the flag was there? Well, the picture shows it right next to the garage, so unless he was out of town he certainly saw it, and certainly should have had it removed immediately.

That is, if his story about it all being his dear wife's fault - there's a gentleman for you - is true. Instead, he let it fly for a few days, which is pretty much equivalent to hanging it himself.

Why? Because someone in the neighborhood put up a "Fuck Trump" sign. That 's a SCOTUS Justice's idea of a good response. Is he in Jr. High School, or what? Does he understand his job?

And of course our champion toady - Blackman - is right there cheering him on. Make sure to put this one on the CV, Josh.

[damikesc]

Maybe he did not give a damn one way or the other and supported both sides free speech?

I can imagine few things I'd be less able to give a shit over than this.

[Nige]

If you vote for Trump, we alrweady know you do not give a shit that the man you're voting for has established that he refuses to accept the outcomes of elections he loses and will do anything he can to undermine democracy.

[myself]

It's amusing the lengths Blackman goes to in order to cast doubt on the completely obvious.

Would he really have us believe that as part of a feud with an anti-Trump neighbour she decided to use a symbol overwhelmingly associated with Trump's attempts to overturn the election as some kind of generic "distress signal"?

[Michael P]

Take, for example, this picture of a 2020 protester clearly trying to express "Stop The Steal(ing of Stuff in this Riot)": https://www.boston.com/news/untagged/2020/05/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-protests-flag-photo/

[Magister]

The flag should not be flown upside down "except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property". If that was the intent, and they believed there was such danger, they should have called 911. "Objectionable and insulting language on yard signs" hardly rises to that level.

If not from the code about respect for the flag, where did they get the idea for flying the flag upside down? Really only one explanation, which Blackman is desperate to excuse as only intended "to clap back at her neighbors".

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Apparently, her "Let's Go Brandon" flag was at the cleaners.

[David Nieporent]

Would he really have us believe that as part of a feud with an anti-Trump neighbour she decided to use a symbol overwhelmingly associated with Trump’s attempts to overturn the election as some kind of generic “distress signal”?

Without opining on how Alito's wife was using it, I’m afraid the claim that an upside down flag was at any point in time “overwhelmingly associated with Trump’s attempts to overturn the election” is going to need a bit more support than the original NYT article provided.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Is there no right-wing asshole you won’t try to defend?

[apedad]

"Well if it is on Patriots.win, that must make it legit!"

I certainly agree with Prof. Blackman that anything labeled Patriots.win must be a hack site that can't be trusted.

Thanks Prof. Blackman!

[hobie]

Fuck me. This is really, really bad. Two avowed insurrectionists on the Supreme Court.

[hobie]

Thomas: "we don't discuss each others personal interests at the gold-plated dinner table' ("Wife did it")
Robert Menendez: "Wife did it"
Alito: "Wife did it"

What a bunch of fucking low-life losers

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Is any of that worse than what Ted Cruz did to his wife?

You know, the hideously ugly pig.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

It’s feezing! Time for a Booze Cruz in Cancun! We need to make America great again by spending money in Mexico!!

Ted Cruz (R-Margaritaville)

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

I guess that's the tradwifey way.

[Please, Daivd, Seek Help]

I agree that the Times is being uncharitable by characterizing the distress flag as a “Stop the Steal” flag — and that it is comparable to the discourse around other dual-use things like flashing the OK symbol. I think it’s probably reasonable to speculate if the Justice or his wife are loony J6 types based on the context we have, but I agree the Times is aiming for theatrics here and especially the headline is bad journalism. Irrespective of whether it’s intended as “Stop the Steal”, it’s wildly inappropriate for the Justice or his wife to fly a political flag or do politics in public like this.

That’s why the ending of the post is so absurd. Why are you blabbering on about a double standard? Which standard is it that you want enforced? If you believe the press should butt out when it comes to Justices expressing politics in public, then say that. If you believe, as I thought you would, that Justices should not do politics in public, then say that.

“Double standards” or “hypocrisy” are terrible arguments because they offer a gesture towards your actual position and then tank it by making it about Us vs. Them. It’s a juvenile thing to do. It’s up there with “Teacher, He’s Doing It Too!!!!” from a student caught breaking rules. You’re not an idiot, so why do you so frequently act like one? It’s embarrassing. Pull up your pants. Stop being a diaper baby.

This is you condemning Ginsburg for one of her sets of ill-advised remarks wading into politics: https://reason.com/volokh/2019/12/18/justice-ginsburg-opines-on-biased-senators-and-president-trumps-knowledge-about-the-constitution/

This is you condemning Ginsburg for another one of her sets of ill-advised remarks wading into politics -- in this one you actually call for her resignation (what a fucking drama queen move, I should say):
https://perma.cc/X8QH-3G6H

If you want to know where I stand, I agree with Josh Blackman (2016-2019) that supreme court Justices doing nakedly political things is an ethical violation and presents a conflict of interest, and that the behavior should be condemned even in the absence of a mechanism for formal sanction. I disagree with Josh Blackman (2024).

[Estragon]

“Biden crime family & ballot fraud co-conspirators (elected officials, bureaucrats, social media censorship mongers, fake stream media reporters, etc) are being arrested & detained for ballot fraud right now & over coming days, & will be living in barges off GITMO to face military tribunals for sedition.”

[Estragon]

Ginny Thomas! Prophetic!

[Sarcastr0]

OK so well known MAGA idiot website says flip the flag round in Jan 2021; part and parcel of the Jan 06 stop the steal nonsense that got violent.

Alito' house does this.

Alito claims it's his wife about another thing and the timing is just unfortunate. As is the alignment with his well known character as a right-wing tool brimming with resentment and editorials.

The timing and ideological alignment seem a pretty damming set of coincidences to me, but I allow YMMV on this one.

Blackman's post is almost irrelevant to this whole thing though. He just pounds the table. Which is how you know he's extra got nothin'

[damikesc]

Flying the dlag upside down to state you feel the country is in danger is a thing never once considered before 1/6/21.

Yup, that mostly peaceful protest made that a thing.

It's power is immense.

The Left loves themselves a good Reichstag fire, don't y'all?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Disaffected, un-American, right-wing assholes should stick together on this, and everything else.

Increasingly, that's about all you superstitious, bigoted write-offs have left in modern America (well, that and West Virginia, Alabama, and Idaho) as the culture war continues to make clingers less and less welcome in and relevant to today's America.

After UCLA's campus improvement spring cleaning, which school will become Conspirator-free next?

[Mr. Bumble]

SarcastrO's understudy Nige will be playing the part of Douche today.

[OtisAH]

And here you are reprising your role as The Fool.

[hobie]

You're gonna have to really work on your spin today, Bumble.

[Mr. Bumble]

Hardly. It's a target rich environment.

[Bwaaah]

Vote for Joe Biden. Because four years ago, there was a day when the wife of a Republican judge displayed a flag upside down next to her house.

FRONT PAGE NEWS!!! NEW YORK TIMES!!!

And look at how serious these people are about this stuff. They act like they are reacting to Josh's obsession. But leftist news media boosted this nothing into a SERIOUS ISSUE. And Douche1 and Douche2 and all the other Douches say, "IT'S SERIOUS!!!"

[Sarcastr0]

Didn't you get all pissed off last week when someone said you were MAGA?

[Bwaaah]

No. You just need to believe I was all pissed off, as if name-calling is SERIOUS like flag handling. It's in that same SERIOUS spirit that I join Bumble in addressing Douche1, Douche2, and other SERIOUS Douches. lol

I'M SERIOUS!!!

[Sarcastr0]

Satire doesn’t land when your delivery is dripping with resentment.

You just seem really unhappy. By your own choice.

[Commenter_XY]

You know Bwaaah, it might be interesting to have a Douche Day Competition, with a Douche leaderboard for Mondays and Thursdays. I am reading your exchange here, and I believe I am watching a douche move up your leaderboard. 🙂

[Bwaaah]

I don't think you appreciate the sadness that overcomes me as a Douche calls me MAGA while he's SERIOUSLY obsessing over an upside-down flag.

If you could see me right now, you'd see that I have three fingers on my left hand pointing to the East. You know what THAT means, don't you? (It's in the Handbook of MAGA Signaling which, unsurprisingly, is a New York Times Bestseller. Wokies eat it up.)

Douche Leaderboard. Anybody want to suggest which suspects vie for the top there? If Sarc doesn't earn a Douchie award, there's no justice in this world.

[Commenter_XY]

Listen, Bwaaah, don't let depression set in over being called MAGA by some mean girl. I know, it is truly psychologically devastating. It is Ok, you'll somehow live through the ignominy of being called MAGA. Just know that millions have gone through it, and they came out Ok. LOL.

Get a couple of shooters of JD, some Coke (drinkable kind, not snortable), and have a couple of drinks. You'll be right as rain in no time, you won't give a shit. You can trust me on that one.

[Nige]

Bwaaah just a few comments away from *ironically* deciding that Trump is right, the election was stolen, just to pwn the silly libs! That'll teach them to take themselves so SERIOUSLY.

[damikesc]

Tell us more about how the OK sign is REALLY a white supremacist thing.

[Nige]

Why? Don't want to talk about Trump's efforts to undermine democracy?

[Bwaaah]

Only wokies knew about the White Supremacy Sign. They received knowledge from reliable news outlets, and it became true. (Reliable news outlets don’t misinform; they just make inexplicable mistakes that produce knowledge.)

[Nige]

You don't want to talk about it either, I see.

[Nige]

I love how you're supposed to be a free thinker with your own unique ideas, yet literally all you do is say stuff sarcastically and act as if it's an argument.

[Bwaaah]

No room for sarcasm here. This is a SERIOUS issue.

lol.

[Nige]

I’m sorry, this is distinguished from your responses to every other issue that isn't about how liberals are mean to you how?

[Bwaaah]

Sarc and Nige are being MEAN to me! They're calling me MAGA. They hurt my feelings. They're HARMING me!!!

SERIOUSLY!!!

(sticks and stones, pussies. sticks and stones)

lol

[Nige]

We broke your brain.

[hobie]

Looks like it. Watching crazy people become crazier at your own hands is very fulfilling

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

(sticks and stones, . . . , sticks and stones)

Eugene Volokh has censored a liberal for using that word to describe conservatives (I omitted it because I was warned never to use it again at this blog), but I doubt the former professor will object when a fellow right-wing write-off uses it.

(Which (viewpoint-driven, partisan censorship) Volokh is entitled to impose at his blog, in my judgment. His playground, his rules. Disaffected partisan hypocrites have rights, too.)

[Estragon]

LOL it’s sarcasm! Like the Hannibal Lecter stuff. You people are losing touch with reality

[Bwaaah]

No. Hannibal Lecter is SERIOUS. But that's last week's SERIOUS. This week's SERIOUS is an upside-down flag next to a Republican judge's house four years ago.

I'm SERIOUS...MAGA SERIOUS!!!

[Estragon]

You would excuse anything. Including shooting a person on 5th Avenue. Remember when he said that, years ago? And look at you now!

[Estragon]

Such a good little trumpster!

[Nige]

Trump and his supporters don't accept the election results, they have their fun little symbols to signal to each other, and one turned up outside the house of a justice of the Supreme Court. Granted it's fundamentally unserious, it's still what they're doing. Don't shoot the messenger.

[Bwaaah]

That's no act.

[Nige]

And you will have nothing else to say about anything, ever.

[OtisAH]

I cannot be the only person surprised and even a little impressed that a dumpy, sweaty dude like Blackman can bend and twist like that.

[Magister]

Lack of a spine, maybe?

[NOVA Lawyer]

Well played. And, yes, the bending over that he does......I'm not sure how impressive, but it is surprising.

[ReaderY]

There’s an obvious difference between the OK sign case and this one. In the OK sign example, the OK sign has a long-standing traditional meaning, the context indicated the aide was using it in its traditional sense, and hence importing a meaning given the symbol by white supremacists would require taking the use of the symbol completely out context.

But in this case, there is good readon to believe that Justice Alito’s wife was intending to respond to a neighbor’s anti-Trump message with a specifically pro-Trump message. She was specifically intending to speak as a Trump supporter and to place herself in the Trump supporter group.

This means that in this case, it is indeed contextually relevant to ask what meaning Trump supporters in general give this message, and to interpret its meaning in the context of how Trump supporters as such interpret it.

The traditional meaning of flying a US flag upside down is, per the Flag Code, a sign of extreme distress, specifically extreme danger to life and property.

Justice Alito attempted to invoke this meaning by claiming his wife was extremely distressed. But frankly, it doesn’t cut it. It just doesn’t feel plausible that the wife of a controversial Supreme Court justice would be so distressed by a fairly ordinary expression of political disagreement of a sort she must have dealt with many many times over the course of her life, that she would feel in such personal danger as to override the general prohibition on disrespecting the U.S. flag.

It seems, frankly, much more plausible that she would respond to an anti-Trump message with a pro-Trump one, to be interpreted in light of the meaning Trump supporters give it.

The two cases are not similarly situated. It is not nearly such a fringe theory in this case as it is in the OK sign case.

And Trump supporters’ use of a sign specifically connoting disrespect for the United States as a symbol of their movement is entirely consistent with their general disrespect for its institutions, not to mention their use of other symbols such as the Confederate flag.

[ReaderY]

I have to say, the sheer implausibility of Justice Alito’s explanation of his wife’s behavior is itself troubling. It’s a legal defense, not a candid leveling with the American people about his family situation.

[Vryedni]

[wrong place]

[SimonP]

It's also, with Alito, absolutely typical. It's a half-baked lie. He doesn't feel we're owed more than that.

[damikesc]

You aren't even "owed" that much, to be frank.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Alito figures God is on his side, so the rules of man do not apply to him.

[Don Nico]

But what do you expect. Assuming that his wife did raise the flag that day, he was going to try ti defend her.
As for the Flag Code, how many people do you thing actually know the rules in that code? My guess is pretty few who have not been in the Armed Forces.

[Sarcastr0]

I don't see anyone on here rolling furious about the violence being done to the Flag Code, only that Alito is of the set to fetishize the flag and will absolutely know that an upside down flag is not a generic act.

[grb]

Don Nico : “But what do you expect?”

1. I don’t expect to learn a Supreme Court Justice disrespected the flag while pandering to Trump’s crude toxic lying.

2. I do expect better from Alito than throwing his wife under the bus or blaming everything on a petty spat with neighbors.

3. I don’t expect better from this forum’s hollowed-out whorish Trumpian lickspittles. Whether Blackman or his fellow tools, claiming the upside flag wasn’t a pro-Trump message is pure & obvious weaseling.

4. I do expect most Americans know turning the flag upside down is a serious act - even if they haven’t memorized the flag code.

[NOVA Lawyer]

Each of these. #3 especially. It's embarrassing to watch them pretend that the most likely explanation is that Mrs. Alito did this on her own as an extreme distress symbol as opposed to, you know, a direct response to their neighbor's anti-Trump statements. I guess once you've gone all in for the rapist, self-respect isn't a thing you really care about any more.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

It's not like she was responding to "anti-Alito" lawn signs, either. She was likely only offended because she's a Trump cultist.

(Assuming it was, indeed, she whodunit.)

[damikesc]

Says the person supporting the guy who took showers with his daughter often enough that she had to schedule showers for when he would not be around.

[grb]

Says the Trump bootlicker whose cult hero repeatedly gushed (publicly) his daughter is hot ******** meat he’d do in a hearbeat except for that irksome fatherhood business.

Peddle your Biden lie as often as you can, but it will never equal the stomach-churning spectacle of Trump’s sexual obssession with Ivanka. Oh, and that spectacle is on tape for all to see and hear, not some sleazy factoid fabricated by a discredited partisan crook.

[grb]

“While president, Donald Trump made sexual comments about his daughter Ivanka in front of his employees that were so lewd and disturbing that he was rebuked by his one-time chief of staff John Kelly, a former Trump official writes in a new book.

“Aides said he talked about Ivanka Trump’s breasts, her backside, and what it might be like to have sex with her, remarks that prompted Kelly to remind the president that Ivanka was his daughter.”

“Kelly “retold that story to me in visible disgust,” Taylor wrote, according to Newsweek. Kelly also said that Trump was “a very, very evil man,” Taylor said.”

And why not? Trump had no problem agreeing with Howard Stern that his daughter was a “piece of ass” – live on-air. He had no problem discussing whether she’d had breast implants on national radio. He had no problem telling Rolling Stone, n a 2015 interview with Rolling Stone, “If I weren’t happily married and, ya know, her father …”

Other people noted his martial status shouldn’t have played a part in that formulation, much less been the lead factor, but Trump didn’t care. He’s been vomiting-up very public sexual comments about Ivanka since she was 15. He doesn’t seem able to exert any self-control over this obssession. When you can’t stop dreaming about what it’s like to fuck your own daughter even while sitting in the Oval Office, you have a problem.

There was one point where father and daughter were interviewed on the Wendy Williams Show. What do you have in common, the host asked the pair. Poor Ivanka gamely tried real estate and golf. Trump sneered, and said “Well, I was going to say sex,” he said, “but I can’t relate that to her.”

Ivanka must have been humiliated & mortified. Does your Biden lie give you permission to vote for a loathsome perverted freak like Trump, damikesc?

[Vryedni]

Well said.

[Dan Schiavetta]

According to my sister (career Army) the upside down flag is supposed to indicate an actual emergency and using it as a political statement is inappropriate. (Just as the actual three dots etc. SOS signal can’t be used on a TV show per FCC regulation.)

[ReaderY]

Its appropriateness depends on the political message one wants to send.

If you want to communicate a message both that the Leader IS the state (and it is to the Leader personally, not the state as an abstract concept, that allegiance is owed), and also that there is such an emergency going on now we need the equivalent of an Enabling Act to save the country, it’s hard to think of a more appropriate message.

[Dan Schiavetta]

The attitude, “The Leader IS the State”, is taken by Trump supporters, who seek to insulate him for every misdeed and who continue to follow him after he says “as President I can do anything I want” and “the Constitution should be suspended” and after he tries to delegitimate any election where he's not declared the winner. It does not, by any fact-based argument, apply to Biden supporters.

[damikesc]

Hey, didn't SCOTUS already say "forgiving" student loans is a no-go?

That is more of a Constitutional violation than anything Trump has even been rumored to do.

[ReaderY]

Wow.

I mean, a whistling-Dixie Confederate could just as well say that Jefferson Davis’s violations of the constitution were peanuts compared to what Lincoln did.

[hobie]

Any former Boy Scout (hobie) and red-blooded, mask-hating patriots like Alito know that it is a desecration to display the American flag in such a manner. Again, that flag was no accident

[Mr. Bumble]

Yes, should have set it afire.

[LawTalkingGuy]

I grew up listening to conservative scout leaders give overly emotional lectures on the flag code and flag etiquette. It’s funny thinking about how many of them probably ended up flying Blue Lives Matter flags or doing this (or at least coming to its defense).

[Mr. Bumble]

Was that before or after they molested you?

[LawTalkingGuy]

Imagine being such a stupid dipshit that you think this is funny or clever.

[Sarcastr0]

It's like Ed got quiet so they decided to step up.

[LawTalkingGuy]

Ed has such special case of brain worms that he's actually pretty fascinating. I honestly can't wait for his deranged take on this one.

Bumble here is just engaging in some run-of-the-mill basement dwelling 5th year HS senior stupidity.

[Sarcastr0]

Ed was burning especially hot right before he got quiet.

I have no inside knowledge, but whether through action taken by the mods here or some external thing, he may not be back for a bit.

[Mr. Bumble]

So what happened to Queenie?

[Brett Bellmore]

Some kind of over the top moderation, I guess, since they went and retroactively deleted Queenie's past comments. (Which I found rather disturbing.)

[David Nieporent]

Some kind of over the top moderation, I guess, since they went and retroactively deleted Queenie’s past comments. (Which I found rather disturbing.)

Or Queenie requested that, a possibility that for some reason you keep failing to consider.

[grb]

Sarcastr0 : “… he may not be back for a bit.”

If so, I’ll miss his predictions. No one could whip-up an apocalyptic dystopian scenario like Ed. He must have foretold the end of all civilization a hundred different ways.

Of course he was always wrong – most recently when he predicted the Key Bridge accident would prove the fault of black people. Not even two months old and that prediction already stinks to high heaven. And Ed was so sure too!

[SimonP]

One of the more exhausting things about living in the MAGA era is the constant drumbeat of lies, mischaracterizations, and gaslighting from the right, where hacks like Josh here insist that what we can see plainly isn’t the truth.

What we know about this kerfuffle is this:

The Alitos flew the American flag in a “distress” position for some number of days leading up to Biden’s inauguration, during the immediate aftermath of the J6 insurrection and Trump’s second impeachment, in apparent disregard of judicial ethics norms against engaging in openly political activity.

The “innocent” explanation for this is that Ms. Alito was engaged in some kind of neighborhood spat with someone who put a “Fuck Trump” sign in their yard.

But why would an American flag in the “distress” position have any significance, in such an exchange, if it were not to be interpreted as some kind of support for Trump? All that it conventionally means – if we are to ignore the J6 noise that Josh dismisses as irrelevant – is that someone is in distress; more broadly, in the context of a protest, it can convey that America is in distress. So if the point of flying the flag upside down wasn’t to show support for Trump’s effort to stay in office, or outrage over his second impeachment, then are we to take Ms. Alito as only conveying her personal distress over a neighbor’s use of an expletive?

No, of course not. We all know that wasn’t what was happening. The “innocent” explanation makes no sense absent the very implication that the Alitos are attempting to deny. The Alitos (and I don’t buy the “my wife made me do it” dodge) were using a simple means within their disposal to register disagreement with their neighbor, to symbolize where their loyalties lie. Their loyalties were with the soon-to-be-former, twice-impeached, attempted-insurrectionist who had spent the previous four years doing so much to destroy our country. We know it. You know it. Stop wasting our time with these contortions over whether we really really know what we can see with our eyes.

Now, I don’t exactly understand why the NYTimes felt the need to run down this story several years later, why it put it on its front page, or any of that. Jodi Kantor needs to keep busy, apparently.

[Krayt]

We are to believe she independently came up with using it off-label as a signal of distress, in a context of Trump losing, but because she was stressed out at a neighbor’s irritating signage and not because of a fun carnival atmosphere to use it?

I’ll reject out of hand, for the moment, that someone in that house believed in election fraud.

[Brett Bellmore]

Even the "stop the steal" people are using it as a signal of distress, you do realize that, don't you? I mean, you don't agree with the distress they're signaling, but it still means "distress", not something completely different.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

That’s because we don’t see a black man as president to be a bad thing.

[SimonP]

We are to believe she independently came up with using it off-label as a signal of distress,...

Like I said. The gaslighting is tiresome. And your comment is incoherent, so I'm not sure how to respond to it.

If we're charitable to the Alitos, the only conventional meaning for flying the flag upside down that we can properly attribute to them is conveying "distress." But that meaning makes no sense in context. It only makes sense if we infer that the Alitos were familiar with its use more broadly among MAGA nation - again, remembering that at this point Congress had just impeached Trump a second time for his role in the J6 insurrection.

Whether the Alitos specifically believed the lies Trump was telling about "election fraud," or simply aligned with that movement because it serves their culture-war prerogatives, only they can know. I think that anyone familiar with Alito's pattern of sniveling opinions, divulging Court deliberations to dinner pals, leaking draft opinions to box in fellow justices, using the WSJ as a soapbox for responding to widespread public criticism, and transparently lying to the press when approached for comment, can draw their own conclusions.

[Krayt]

You said what I said, only verbosely rather than compactly.

[SimonP]

I.e., with many fewer words, including several that were essential to your meaning.

[Stella Link the dog]

" [not] because she was stressed out at a neighbor’s irritating signage and not because of a fun carnival atmosphere to use it?"

Does either of those strike you as plausible?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

What are these right-wing yokels going to say when someone produces evidence that Alito's wife did not raise that upside-down flag?

And that there were no schoolchildren exposed to an anti-Trump sign while awaiting a bus?

And that it was not displayed for a "brief period."

And that the Alitos were quite familiar with the "stop the steal" angle -- in particular, that they knew un-American insurrectionists had displayed that symbol while assaulting the Capitol.

And that there was no personally insulting language on yard signs?

And that the in-person communications were commenced by the Alitos?

One more step toward ethical standards at the Supreme Court. Another step toward enlargement of the Supreme Court.

Carry on, clingers. (Your betters will, as always, let you know just how far and how long.)

[LawTalkingGuy]

We live in a society that has traditionally treated the US flag, as a physical object, as something sacred. Until the last few years or so the American conservative movement were the biggest promoters of the flag as sacred object.

So it’s absolutely insane to see a fucking Supreme Court justice/his wife fly one upside down! His explanation of “neighbor-dispute” should make him see like a humongous asshole: desecrating a revered object for something super petty! It’s not a great defense! And the fact that it is the defense tells us about the American right in the 2020s.

Ask yourself the following:

Could this event plausibly happen or this defense be given in the 1980s-1990s when banning flag burning was a culture war flashpoint?

What about in the post-9/11 pre-Trump era?

We know the answer to both is an “absolutely not.” Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.

But it can happen in the 2020s. Why? Because Trump and Trumpism have totally reoriented the right-wing approach to the American flag and its symbolism, to such an extent that a right-wing Justice/his family felt comfortable doing this! It could never happen without that cultural green light from the movement. Whatever the Alitos were trying to communicate…they can get away with this method and have defenders only because Trumpism has altered the reverence accorded the American flag.

[ReaderY]

In the 1980s, the right supported and respected things like democracy, the rule of law, the American military, the American alliance system. Today they don’t. Why should they respect any of the symbols of these things?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

This incident will not be mentioned in the case for enlargement of the Supreme Court, but it will be one of many precipitates.

The wife of a Supreme Court justice publicly displays an un-American symbol in disaffected, low-grade solidarity with insurrectionists; the justice never mentions it or recuses.

I hope someone has a photograph or recording of the person who raised that flag in such a shabby, un-American manner. I doubt the Alitos considered that prospect before responsibility was ascribed to Mrs. Alito, who appears to be just another ready-for-replacement culture war casualty residing on the obsolete, bigoted, superstitious side of the street..

[Commenter_XY]

Arthur....are you beating that SCOTAL enlargement thing again from March 2021?

Sandra (formerly OBL) will be along shortly to remind you of your prognostication shortcomings. 🙂

[grb]

Commenter_XY : "remind you of your prognostication shortcomings."

Not fair. The Rev sees things from a geological time-style perspective.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

I expect the Supreme Court to be enlarged.

I also expect the United States to stop supporting Israel's right-wing asshole government.

You seem to figure the American mainstream will continue to accept a Court that resembles a '50s meeting of Alabama landowners and will continue to subsidize elsewhere the bigoted, superstitious right-wing belligerence that mainstream does not support in the United States.

Let's see whose positions prevail.

I know what side I am on. I know which side has been winning in America throughout my lifetime. I know which side is on the right side of history and the stronger side at the marketplace of ideas.

Good luck with your hopes of reversing the tide of the culture war, clinger.

[John F. Carr]

Alistair Cooke, Letter from America, 23 June 1989:

But there is one prohibition which, while perhaps not unique to this country, was odd enough to cause a funny disruption of Anglo American relations during a tense period of the Second World War. This is the rule, which says "that the flag may never be used as decoration merely, curtains, cushions or be represented in any form in an advertisement".
Now this, I remember, was to me something quite new, having come from a country in which pictures, paintings, representations of the members of the Royal Family with or without the flag were a regular feature on cushions, boxes of chocolate and so on.
The funny hullabaloo I'm thinking off happened in, I believe, the spring of 1943 when the first massive wave of GI American soldiers began to pour into Britain. A manufacturer of flags in the Midlands generously decided to play his part in cementing Anglo American friendship by making, at his own expense, thousands of – how shall I put it – what were then known in Britain as ladies knickers (in this country as panties).
They were to be, they were, imprinted with a miniature American flag, they were to be distributed as a gesture of gratitude and goodwill to the incoming hoards of GIs who, presumably, would cherish them as reminders of home sweet home or send them home to their wives or girlfriends. It was a gesture greatly appreciated by the board of trade and the foreign office.
The distribution began. Shock and outrage at the American Embassy in London, aftershock at the foreign office, London was in a tizzy, why were the Americans not merely ungrateful, but insulted?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4zJD6ns9wjL3StCS23dnFt9/the-desecration-of-the-american-flag-23-june-1989

[Dan Schiavetta]

There's actual patriotism and divisive, defensive patriotism. Britons seem to have more of the former. Maybe it's because they've already lost an empire and have reconciled to it. Or maybe it's because they have a system with a nonpartisan head of state whom everyone can swear allegiance to.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Your perspective is amusingly American. There is plenty of the latter.

And (not sure this will help, but) most Britons are fairly "republican" these days. Charles is no Lizzie.

[John F. Carr]

When Cooke observed the controversy in 1943 Britain had an empire and was led by a proud imperialist.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

ReaderY provides a calm and reasonable analysis.

Spence v. Washington, 418 U.S. 405 (1974) is an interesting precedent.

Harold Spence hung an American flag on his apartment window, displayed upside-down and adorned with peace symbols as a means to protest the United States’ recent actions in the invasion of Cambodia and the Kent State shootings.

The controversy there was the peace symbol affixed to the flag. But, the upside-down “distress” symbolism is displayed.

The NYT article notes that the upside-down flag was used by people on both the left and the right over the years with Vietnam protests cited. The idea it is a “fringe” argument is silly.

We can debate the importance of the whole thing but that is a separate matter. I also would flag something — maybe Prof. Eugene Volokh wishes to discuss it — the limits of Supreme Court employees against public displays of partisan views.

That seems questionable on First Amendment grounds. Why should a bumper sticker on the car of a court secretary or whatnot be banned? People can also not “state positions” on social media and so forth. At the very least, it seems overboard.

Perhaps, current employee speech law allows for such a regulation. It seems more worthy of discussion, all the same, than this bit of silliness.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Overboard. Overbroad too!

[hobie]

I don't think anyone here questions Alito's rights to express what he thinks. In fact, the more the Alitos and Thomas' open their mouths and their wallets the more we know how far the rabbit hole they've gone

[JoeFromtheBronx]

The article talks about regulations limiting the speech of Supreme Court "employees." The Court did not respond to a request asking for clarification if "employees" include justices.

I'm thinking broadly there. Not about Alito particularly.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Also, the article discussed the ethical limits of what federal judges can say. I assume many people here accept some limits there.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

So long as he recuses himself appropriately, he can say what he wants about any potential future topic of Supreme Court deliberations.

But you know he won't do that...

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

He's on a Mission from God.

A bigoted, illusory, paltry, obsolete, worthless God.

[Commenter_XY]

Do I have this right? We are witnessing a collective freak-out by the uber-patriots at various leftist MSM outlets because an American flag was flown upside down on the premises of a SCOTUS justice.

Is this for real? This is what the MSM is fixated upon? And these same people wonder why the general public reviles them, and distrusts them? /smh - and makes me laugh.

[hobie]

Sigh. Trump was just asking questions. A flag was upside down. You're right. That's all we're on about, XY.

[grb]

Commenter_XY : "Is this for real?"

Are you for real? Suppose Sotomayor or Jackson flew a flag upside down. Do you think it would get no MSM attention? You might want to look at your situational standards as a source of humor & give the tired old media bashing a rest.

[Commenter_XY]

I would not give a shit if Justices Sotomayor or Jackson flew an American flag upside down. I would be saying the same thing....is this for real?

[bacchys]

You're not believable.

[Nige]

The right is getting even weirder and freakier, sorry we keep noticing.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Please don't mention the adult diapers thing again.

[Nige]

Cauterised from my brain.

[bernard11]

I would not give a shit if Justices Sotomayor or Jackson flew an American flag upside down.

I don't believe you.

You are marinated in the same toxic mix as so many other RW commenters here. You will, predictably, follow their lead.

[Sarcastr0]

He's also low-key strawmaning. No one is unhappy about the Flag Code, they're unhappy about the evidence Alito supports the fact-free right-wing fringe.

Add in Ginny Thomas' delusions about military trials in 2020.

Makes you think about authoritarianism and intellect/education.

[damikesc]

So, bernard, you come up with a silly hypothetical and then assume your hypothetical was, in fact, not silly but FACTUAL REALITY.

Got it.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

You are lying, bigoted, superstition-addled, right-wing culture roadkill, _XY. A stain along the path of America's national progress, shaped against your obsolete, ugly preferences.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

You are a very poor liar, _XY.

Replacement will fix that.

[shawn_dude]

If one minimizes this down to just an upside down flag, sure. But this is part of a larger issue of Supreme Court ethics, the lack of accountability, and recent cases of Supreme Court family members being involved in things like insurrection or other items that are likely to come before their spouses on the court. It's also about the general erosion of governmental traditions, especially under Trump, that are destabilizing some of our core institutions.

There's a bigger picture here.

[Commenter_XY]

That is a fair point = there is a bigger picture here

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Bigger, sure -- as in enlargement.

See you down the road apiece, clingers.

[Commenter_XY]

You need a visit from Sandra. 🙂

[James Alp]

“The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.” 4 U.S.C. § 8(a). Literally part of U.S. law for decades. Apparently the person who posted on Patriots.win knew that, but Professor Blackman didn’t. Also, not sure what point he thinks he’s making by saying that by “late-January 2021 … the outcome of the election was already settled.” Clearly, the time of “dire distress” for Trump supporters would be AFTER the failed attempt to install him for a second term via the mob assault on the Capitol. And that’s exactly what the Patriots.win poster said too: that their time of dire distress would ensue if the Jan. 6 effort failed (“If Jan. 6 rolls around and Biden is confirmed by the Electoral College …”). The Trump supporters’ distress was centered around the coming inauguration of Joe Biden, precisely the time when the Alitos’ house was flying the upside-down flag — supposedly because a neighbor had a yard sign with a naughty word on it, at least two-and-a-half months earlier? Not buying it.

[Magister]

Were the objectionable signs definitely from months earlier? Alito's neighborhood is probably somewhat conservative, but conservatives briefly experimented with criticism of Trump in January 2021, so the signs may have been prompted by the insurrection rather than the election.

[bacchys]

If it weren't for double standards, Blackman wouldn't have any standards at all.

MAGAt idiots Comer and Jordan are promising hearings into Judge Merchan's family, but I doubt we'll get any on Alito's bizarre display of bias.

[damikesc]

Merchan's DAUGHTER is an advisor for several Democrats. One of her clients, Goldman, coached Cohen before his laughably terrible testimony. He has placed an insanely unconstitutional gag order on Trump --- but ONLY on him --- ignoring that gag orders are to protect the defendant, not the prosecution.

Yup, it's the same thing as a flag flying in a way you don't like. Seriously, it's identical.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

The gag order was upheld by the appeals court. "Insanely unconstitutional"... Sure, believe what you want.

[Stephen Lathrop]

The half-dozen neighbors who saw the flag, or knew of it, requested anonymity because they said they did not want to add to the contentiousness on the block and feared reprisal.

The, "feared reprisal," part needs to be taken seriously, of course.

But so does the prospect of a Supreme Court Justice sitting on an election-related case, after displaying publicly a partisan interest in its outcome.

Take the two together, then add the parade of congressional MAGAs denouncing America's rule of law at the New York courthouse, and attacking the judge's family on television, and you get genuine questions of loyalty to the U.S., oath breaking, and disregard of separation of powers.

This is insurrection continued. It is not being played as a game. It is Constitutional crisis, kept barely under wraps while participants experiment to see how far they can push it. To tolerate it will embolden them.

[damikesc]

"Take the two together, then add the parade of congressional MAGAs denouncing America’s rule of law at the New York courthouse"

At a trial where, mind you, nobody knows what the "underlying crime" is to make this a felony.

Nor that Trump did anything illegal at all. Lawyers do not tend to specify everything they did when they send you a bill.

Cannot figure out why the legitimacy of this criminal case is in question.

[David Nieporent]

Anyone who has clerked in federal district court is familiar with the fringes on the flag. The so-called sovereign citizens insist that a flag with fringes proves that a court is in fact a military court.

He can't even get small details right. They do no such thing. They insist that the gold fringes on the flag make it an admiralty court, not a military court.

[Zarniwoop]

Anyone who has clerked in federal district court is familiar with the fringes on the flag. The so-called sovereign citizens insist that a flag with fringes proves that a court is in fact a military court.

He can’t even get small details right. They do no such thing. They insist that the gold fringes on the flag make it an admiralty court, not a military court.

Have clerked. Can confirm the sovcits argument is “admiralty court” not “military court” IME.

That said, didn’t Blackmun clerk too? I won’t say it’s impossible that sovcits are indiscriminate when it comes to recycling loser whack-a-doodle arguments.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Can't say I noticed any fringes at the time. I did learn about sovereign citizens though...

[Zarniwoop]

Wrong spot

[bernard11]

Complete BS post, Josh.

What does a protest on May 11 have to do with that stupid flag she put up (and carefully concealed from her husband, per Alito's story)?

AFAICT, there was no protest, just some (literal) flag-waving.

I could waste my time by digging up quotes from Justice Ginsburg about President Trump, but you know the double standard.

But this was not Alito criticizing Biden or his policies. It was a statement that the election was stolen, that it was rife with fraud. The situations are not comparable. You may disagree with Ginsburg, or think it inappropriate for her to make her comments, but then why defend Alito, who was spreading a particularly harmful lie, in a particularly juvenile fashion?

I have some guesses.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

.

Justice Alito's wife, and the other family members of the Court's conservatives, can never find peace:

Whining, grievance-consumed right-wingers are among my favorite culture war casualties.

Maybe Harlan Crow will send a superyacht or private jet to the Alitos' street to help soothe Mrs. Alito's feelings enough to fortify Justice Alito for the task of deciding whether to rule in favor of the assholes who share his wife's un-American nature.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Who will show up in Trump's courtroom to provide support to the defendant first, Mrs. Thomas or Mrs. Alito?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Volokh Conspiracy dreamboat John Eastman was arraigned and mug-shotted today.

Eugene Volokh's academic career is over.

Josh Blackman is rapid-fire posting, mostly whining about perceived persecutions of clingers.

Bad times for the Volokh Conspiracy. Good times for America.

[ILK]

And there we go, one week later the NYT breaks a continuation of the story that makes clear that the denialists were full of sh*t. Josh, you think you would know better than to weigh in immediately. The media did the same with the Thomas leaks. If you'd ever practiced, you'd know that this is literally the oldest litigation tactic in the book. Reveal half of what you have, get your opponent on the record with a lie or half truth, then bury them with the second half.