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The Clear Statement Rule and the Major Question Doctrine As Substantive Separation of Powers Canons
The clear statement rule and the major question doctrine both function as substantive separation of powers canons in order to avoid deciding if federal actions are unconstitutional.
During oral argument in the Trump immunity case, Justice Kavanaugh articulated a strong understanding of the "clear statement" rule. Under this principle, statutes should be read to not apply to the President unless there is a clear statement that Congress intended to subject the President to that constraint. Kavanaugh suggested there is always a "serious constitutional question whether a statute can be applied to the president's official acts." I wrote about some of Kavanaugh's questions in this post.
Professor Mike Ramsey observed that the clear statement rule, or the "presidential nonapplicability canon (if we can call it that) parallel a view of the major questions doctrine as a substantive canon." I agree with Ramsey. Both the clear statement rule, and the major question doctrine, are substantive canons to avoid potential violations of the separation of powers. Justice Gorsuch explained in West Virginia v. EPA that the major question doctrine is best viewed as an avoidance canon in service of the non-delegation doctrine. That is, the Court will require a clear statement that Congress intended to empower an agency to resolve a "major question" in order to avoid deciding if such a broad delegation would even be constitutional. Likewise, with the Presidential Avoidance Canon, as I described it during the Trump years, the Court will require a clear statement that Congress intended to limit the President's power in order to avoid deciding if such a limitation on the President's power would violate Article II.
The clear statement rule and the major question doctrine both function as substantive separation of powers canons in order to avoid deciding if federal actions are unconstitutional.
I recognize that Justice Barrett is less comfortable with the major question doctrine as a substantive canon, and said as much in the student loan case. Indeed, I question whether Justice Barrett would have joined Justice Gorsuch's Gundy dissent--she may take Justice Scalia's view on the non-delegation doctrine. Even so, I think the clear statement rule is even more justifiable in the context of federal criminal rules for a precise reason: the notion that the sitting President could be prosecuted for a federal crime would have been a non-sequitur to the framers. Regardless of what you think about Nixon v. Fitzgerald presidential immunity--a doctrine that has no real grounding in text or history--the President is the embodiment of the executive branch, and it could never have been fathomed that a President would be indicted by his own subordinates.
Of course, we still live in the shadow of Morrison v. Olson, which, as Justice Kavanaugh explained, was a "terrible decision for the presidency and for the country." Whether we are talking about the mostly-independent independent counsel or the quasi-independent special counsel, the mechanism by which a sitting President could be subjected to the criminal laws does not sit well with the separation of powers. An OLC opinion stating that the sitting President cannot be indicted is cold comfort for me. I don't know if Barrett agrees with Kavanaugh on that point.
What about prosecuting a former President? During oral argument, hypotheticals were raised about whether Presidents Roosevelt and Kennedy could have been indicted after they left office. Of course, such prosecutions would have been impossible, since both Presidents died in office, but we can still consider the hypotheticals. I don't know that the possibility of prosecution after the President leaves office changes the calculus very much. Then again, King Charles I could not be reached for comment.
If we assume that a statute of limitation is greater than four years, any decision that a sitting President makes would be affected by the fear that he could be prosecuted once he leaves office--indeed he would likely be prosecuted by the administration of his leading political opponent. Experiences in countries around the worlds attests to how common this phenomenon is. It is true that the Impeachment Disqualification Clause considers that a person can be convicted of a crime even after being removed from office, but there are a range of individuals who are subject to impeachment. The President is somewhat unique.
One final point on "Officer stuff." Did you really think you'd read an entire post of mine without talking about "Officer stuff"? During the oral argument in Trump v. Anderson, Justices Jackson and Gorsuch both asked why the President was not specifically enumerated in the list of covered offices in Section 3--those who had to take the oath and those who would be subject to disqualification. Jackson and Gorsuch were articulating a version of the clear statement rule: before we read a provision of the Constitution to regulate the President, we want a clear statement that the constitutional text applies to the President. General language about offices and officers is not enough. There are many reasons to require a clear statement of applicability to the President in many contexts. The Trump immunity case might be one instance to explore that issue.
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There’s no text suggesting Presidential Immunity, and there is no parade of horribles if none is magicked from the penumbrae. For the President can pardon himself as he goes along. Again if there was a rule against self pardoning, it would have to be magicked from the penumbrae.
As a textualist sort of person, I’d be quite happy with this textually sound conclusion – though Trump would obviously not be.
However much the same result – though happier for Trump – for those who prefer to magick things from penumbrae, would be the conclusion that the President is immune from prosecution for anything he could have pardoned himself for. I suppose going forward it would save a bit of paperwork compared with the textualist answer.
The notion that every president would be routinely expected to pardon themselves before they leave office should be enough to dismiss your interpretation.
Every President after it is made clear that President N+1 has no qualms about prosecuting President N. If there was a "norm" that you don't go after past Presidents and try to put them in jail, then it's not a "norm" any more. And should SCOTUS conclude there's no Presidential Immunity, that's exactly what all future Presidents will do. (Except the ones whose marbles have gone.)
So, what mechanism prevents utilizing the office to prevent the peaceful transfer of power? Using your reasoning, so long as it was the norm that presidents would accept an election, there was no need for prosecution for "corruptly" obstructing the transfer of power.
Once that norm is broken, what are the guard rails? If immunity for those acts is imposed, doesn't obstructing the transfer of power become the new norm, more so than prosecution of former presidents.
I just don't get the no worry about allowing presidents "to do whatever they want" thereby guaranteeing that no president need go quietly ever again. Why even bother pardoning themselves, instead of doing their utmost to stay in office contrary to the vote? (Or do both?)
If there is immunity, wouldn't Biden simply be stupid not to have Harris simply gavel him back into office? If the Supreme Court doesn't like it, ignore and replace them, no? Ditto Congress. If it fails, so what? There are no consequences. Can't blame a guy for trying, so long as it's the president.
We've lived this long on the assumption that presidents can be prosecuted for criminal acts in office. When they plausibly could be (Nixon, Clinton), that's been dealt with on a case by case basis. That, not "we will not prosecute former presidents" has been the norm.
And, seriously, how many presidential acts have placed presidents in criminal jeopardy? Not many. More important is the deterrence for possible criminal acts. What, in the immunity scheme, replaces that?
So, what mechanism prevents utilizing the office to prevent the peaceful transfer of power?
A swift impeachment and conviction ?
My point is that there’s no good argument that you can prosecute a President who doesn’t want to be prosecuted. Because there’s no limit on the pardon power. The only kind of President you can prosecute is one who’s dumb enough not to pardon himself before he leaves office. Now that Presidents are known to be “in season” they know what to do on the way out.
But by all means feel free to try to amend the constitution to limit the pardon power.
Unless Trump is extraordinarily bad. In which case this new norm you're concerned about will never form.
This is something the leaders of both political parties seem to believe about Trump.
So this isn't going to come up unless the GOP jumps.
The assumption that presidents are now somehow "in season" when before they were not, is incorrect. They were always technically "in season" after leaving office, and nobody ever doubted it. Else Ford would not have pardoned Nixon.
(Of course, one of the rationales for letting Trump off the hook on impeachment was that criminal sanctions remained as a deterrent. Had that been his defense, and a lawsuit instead of an impeachment, he could be judicially estopped from asserting immunity.)
To the extent that the possibility of prosecution may have chilled some presidential actions in the past, that is a good thing. It did not work on Trump and we wouldn't be here if they had. (Eastman asked to be put on the pardon list. Criminal jeopardy was foreseeable.) That's on him, and if he failed to pardon himself, then too bad, so sad.
And, it's not as if the examples of possible prosecutions that were foregone fly fast and furious from every administration.
Instead, they are isolated, and tenuous at best, and not remotely analogous to the crimes charged. If there was a "norm" it was a norm applied in those situations, and not the one at issue.
The public action defense is pretty robust in allowing a defendant to show a lack of criminal intent, as is the advice of counsel defense.
On the other hand, if there is presidential immunity, why is impeachment even on the table? With immunity there is no crime, and no constitutional basis for impeachment, right?
And, if the law shouldn't "chill" presidential action, why should we allow the possibility of impeachment to chill it? The whole rationale is internally inconsistent.
The category error is that the prosecution is somehow indicative of an inevitable new trend or practice, instead of the one-off for the unprecedented misconduct that it is.
Plus, prosecuting a former president is politically fraught to start with, and seems unlikely to happen except in serious, non-borderline circumstances. And, if not, we can depend on juries and the courts to toss out the stretches and abuses without inventing new doctrines.
Nor am I as convinced as you are of that the pardon power extends to self-pardons. Doesn't the argument that unless the president is expressly included in a text, he is excluded, apply doubly and even more aptly to the pardon power?
Surely if the framers thought it had that surprising application, the language would have stated that the president had the power to pardon himself. Heck, they would have put immunity in the Constitution, rather than simply allowing to the president to pardon himself.
Weird how the "textualists" and "originalists" are now just making up penumbral rules out of whole cloth. I've read numerous times in these pages about how "qualified immunity" is ungrounded, so I don't get the about face.
That aside, a self-pardon has political implications that would tend to work against that option. Likely that was Trump's reason for not attempting it. Conceivably, it might be considered as an "abuse of power" and a separate article of impeachment, not to mention an admission of wrongdoing.
In short, the purely prudential arguments, untethered to any text don't work and seem to be no more than motivated reasoning positing situations that do not and seem unlikely to exist.
Weird how the “textualists” and “originalists” are now just making up penumbral rules out of whole cloth. I’ve read numerous times in these pages about how “qualified immunity” is ungrounded, so I don’t get the about face.
That's because you've got yourself overexcited, and too emotionally invested in the result in the case of Trump.
My very first comment - indeed the very first comment on Josh's piece - states very clearly that, as a textualist, I don't think there's any Presidential Immunity because it's not in the text. And likewise there's no limit to the Presidential pardon power that prevents him pardoning himself. Because, again, there's no limit in the text.
We only get on to conjuring Presidential immunity and limits on self pardoning if we reject the text (ie the absence of it) and start making things up. Can't you see that I'm poking fun of people who are rustling in the penumbrae for answers they like ?
In short, the purely prudential arguments, untethered to any text don’t work and seem to be no more than motivated reasoning positing situations that do not and seem unlikely to exist.
I agree. Stick to the text. There's no presidential immunity and there's no limit to self pardoning. Not a good answer for Trump, but for Presidents in general, there's no magic button you can press to rely on the absence of text to reject presidential immunity, but then import imaginary text to limit the president's power to pardon himself.
Except a constitutional amendment.
Or "motivated reasoning" of course 🙂
Heh. My bad. I'm not completely convinced on the pardon power, since there's some room to argue the absence of text that would make the issue unambiguous rates consideration--not to mention the possibility of some "public meaning" lying around out there. Do you know of any case in a state/colony where the pardon was so used, or rejected?
Still, when a statement is unconditional it is usually interpreted as unconditional.
since there’s some room to argue the absence of text that would make the issue unambiguous rates consideration
Still, when a statement is unconditional it is usually interpreted as unconditional.
The second sentence seems sounder to me. We do not - I assume - interpret the absence of additional underlining text as making it ambiguous that the President can pardon police commissioners, ex governors, wealthy racketeers whose wives make hefty political contributions, members of the President's staff, members of the President's family, and former Presidents. It's not obvious to me why we would think differently about the absence of additional underlining text in the case of a President pardoning himself.
To doubt that unconditionals are unconditional on consequentialist grounds may sometimes be plausible if one is consequentially minded, but from a textual point of view unconditionals traditionally lead one to doubt that there are any conditions.
And as I mention elsewhere, in this particular context it seems odd to insist that the absence of text proves definitively that there is no presidential immunity, but the absence of text limiting the presidential pardon power should lead us to read some in. There's a certain logical asymmetry there.
I’ve read numerous times in these pages about how “qualified immunity” is ungrounded, so I don’t get the about face.
It is not an about face unless the Supreme Court were to simply abolish qualified immunity outright.
So, what mechanism prevents utilizing the office to prevent the peaceful transfer of power?
Nothing.
What were the consequences for Crossfire Hurricane?
There’s no text suggesting Presidential Immunity, and there is no parade of horribles if none is magicked from the penumbrae. For the President can pardon himself as he goes along. Again if there was a rule against self pardoning, it would have to be magicked from the penumbrae.
There is no text suggesting qualified immunity for police officers, and yet here it is.
https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article287820190.html
In Anglo-American law, an judge does not judge himself. Biden cannot pardon himself for the US federal capital crime of perpetration of genocide.
The US body politic needs to have a civil and public discussion of the best way publicly to send an ex-president to the gallows when he is convicted of a US federal capital crime as genocide Joe must be convicted.
As I stated on the other thread: all these hypotheticals and theoretical arguments seem specifically and intentionally designed to avoid actually discussing the relevant conduct. The guy was part of a criminal conspiracy to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power and remain in the White House against the will of the voters. If that conduct is not reachable by federal criminal law— what lies ahead? If you defrosted Thomas Jefferson and told him the Supreme Court was seriously considering that the President might not be subject to any criminal laws— even for attempting to stay in office beyond his term— what do you think he’d say? Would that sound to him like the system they were trying to set up, or the system they just fought a revolution against?
Can one faithfully execute the country’s laws and also not be liable for violating them? It seems contradictory, to put it mildly.
So you’re saying that by failing to prosecute himself for perjury, Bill Clinton should have been prosecuted and convicted after leaving office.
Noted, but I’ll want to see your dated comments about it to confirm your argument isn’t just opportunistic.
Again: all these hypotheticals and theoretical arguments seem specifically and intentionally designed to avoid actually discussing the relevant conduct.
This was a criminal attempt to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power— one of the gravest threats imaginable to our system of government. You want to talk about Bill Clinton lying about a consensual blow job as if there’s some sort of equivalency to the actual underlying conduct. Do you see how you’re reinforcing what I just said?
Again: all these hypotheticals and theoretical arguments seem specifically and intentionally designed to avoid actually discussing the relevant conduct.
But why do you find that strange ? All these hypotheticals and theoreticals are precisely the case that SCOTUS has been asked to decide. In advance of the case on the details of the relevant conduct. And - I may be wrong - but I thought the Special Counsel wanted things to be tackled that way round.
But your consequentialist horror at the implications of immunity are presumably not one time only concerns just for Trump, but general concerns about the conduct of all Presidents. And if this is so, your horror cannot be assuaged by a ruling that Presidents have no immunity. For that does not take away the President's power to pardon himself (and any accomplices.) So should any future President decide to do similar things to what you allege against Trump, he need only pardon himself for your horror to be confirmed.
In short you are panicking pointlessly. If you think a finding of Presidential Immunity would doom the Republic - then it is doomed already. (Except in relation to Trump.)
Got it. Your argument is opportunistic.
The guy that shouldn't be prosecuted is the guy you like, and vice versa.
“The guy that shouldn’t be prosecuted is the guy you like”
I explicitly did not say that. I’m not interested in talking about Bill Clinton. You are— because you don’t want to talk about the conduct at hand. Which was my original point.
This was a criminal attempt to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power— one of the gravest threats imaginable to our system of government.
I have already witnessed a criminal attempt to disriupt the peacful transfer of power- back in 2017.
Here is Jack Marshall.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
Barack Obama and Joe Biden actively participated in the scheme, as McCarthy’s last paragraph above reminds us. This was genuinely impeachable conduct, far, far worse than the contrived grounds for Trump’s two impeachments.
One attempt to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power deserves another as payback!
Wow you're just totally fine wearing your retardation on your sleeve, huh.
Smearing your opponent before the election has nothing whatsoever to do with disrupting the peaceful transfer of power after the election.
I don't get why you drag in the Clinton red herring, except, as Estragon says, to avoid discussing the matter at hand.
I don't see anything in Estragon's comments that says Clinton couldn't have been prosecuted.
You're just trying to throw some shit against the wall.
What you are missing is that this is a pre-trial appeal on “hypotheticals and theoretical” legal issues to address how to “actually discuss[] the relevant conduct.”
Its almost as if you think, as was floated during Trump v Anderson oral arguments: “Hey kids, lets have our own trial right here!”
That’s exactly what the Supreme Court’s job is to do.
And lets not forget it was Jack Smith that asked the Court to grant cert on the case.
Nothing you just wrote contradicts what I said. Alito was desperate to steer Dreeben away from talking about the actual facts of this case— it’s right in the transcript.
Morrison v Olson? Give me a break. As someone said the other day it’s like pointing out the fringe on the flag in the courtroom.
What was the question Jack Smith wanted resolved anyways? Do you think the justices will limit themselves to this specific case or “We’re writing a rule for the ages,” and isn’t that something conservatives used to complain about?
If you want to substantively defend Trump’s conduct I’m all ears. I summarized one facet of it below.
What I think that the Justices were trying to divert the discussion from was the interpretation of 18 USC § 1512(c)(2), and whether it could be severed from 1512(c)(1), which Trump had been indicted under for Obstruction. And the reason that they probably didn’t want to get diverted talking about it was that they had heard oral arguments, a bit over a week earlier, on just that subject, in the Fischer v US J6 case. My bet, right now, from reading the oral arguments, is that they will likely rule (at least 6-3) that 1512(c)(2) is limited by 1512(c)(1), which applies to “Whoever corruptly— (1) alters, destroys, mutilates, or conceals a record, document, or other object, or attempts to do so, with the intent to impair the object’s integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding”. No documents were involved in the J6 cases, but some have claimed that some documents in Trump’s case were involved when he allegedly “(2) otherwise obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so”. Which means that if Fischer is reversed, as many expect, the trial judge will have to apply the new rule to the Trump case, and then, if he rules that it does, then it would go to the DC Circuit…
In short, they were probably trying to keep from walking over themselves in the Fischer case.
Yes exactly. Expansive hypotheticals to avoid discussion of the actual facts.
The case originated from expansive interpretations of criminal laws.
some would write these applications are novel.
Not one person in the 1998-2001 time period expressed the idea that Bill Clinton was immune from prosecution. Indeed, he reached a deal with the special counsel to avoid prosecution, surrendering his law license and paying a fine.
"The guy was part of a criminal conspiracy to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power and remain in the White House against the will of the voters. "
What guy ?
What conspiracy ?
Tell it to the judge. What's the problem?
Calling an action "criminal" does not, in fact, make it a crime. The action must actually be proscribed by a criminal statute. Criminal prosecution is not meant to be an exercise in creativity.
What is Trump actually charged with in the D.C. case? Two counts under the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, a banking fraud statute, under a section clearly meant to prohibit "obstruction" of congressional investigatory committees by keeping banking records from them or providing fake ones. The Supreme Court will soon blow these out of the water with its pending decision in Fischer v. United States. The other two charges are under the Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871, meant to prohibit the physical intimidation of voters, something rather difficult to accomplish after the votes have actually been cast. These charges are a mockery of the criminal justice system.
The guy tried to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power… are you really disputing that?
Again: anything to avoid actually discussing the conduct that occurred.
If you want to charge him with those things, do that.
Don't throw a bunch of half cooked pasta at the wall in hopes that some of the wall is dirty enough to make the pasta stick.
You don't seem to understand how criminal law works. He is not charged with "attempting to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power", which is not a crime, and is exactly what Al Gore did after the 2000 election. One is free to criticize any actions taken to that end and vote accordingly, but it is the grossest abuse of power and democratic norms to take non-criminal conduct and try to squeeze it into a criminal statute in which it clearly does not fit.
This was not merely criticism. He tried to stoke enough unrest to justify invoking the insurrection act in order to remain in office past the end of his term. See for example the DC bar proceedings against Jeffrey Clark.
Whatever equivalency you want to try and draw with Al Gore is risible but also predictable: because you’d rather talk about that than what actually happened.
And yes, it’s a novel situation that doesn’t appear to neatly fit into certain existing criminal statutes- because the conduct was, thankfully, sui generis (at least for now).
We all realize what Al Gore did was (D)ifferent, and we all know why. I am not suggesting anything Gore did was criminal, but you are.
I was not referring to criticism from Trump, but criticism of Trump, which is, of course, certainly permissible. The idea that his actions were sui generes is absurd as even recent history demonstrates. Democrats in Congress have challenged electoral votes after every presidential they have lost since 2000. But, of course, that was (D)ifferent.
Your admission that the actions don't "neatly fit" into existing criminal statutes is all but a concession of my point. Again, criminal statutes do not exist to provide prosecutors an opportunity to exercise their creativity, but to give potential defendants unambiguous notice that certain acts are criminal. To use the criminal law otherwise is an infinitely worse attack on democracy than anything Trump did.
Oh I think the conduct definitely fits under existing criminal laws.
I’ve already responded to “but Al Gore” and I’m not going to repeat myself.
To rehash just one facet of this criminal conspiracy:
Trump’s handpicked AG was over at DOJ trying to convince them to issue a statement casting doubt on the outcome of the election on the basis of rumors about smart thermostats changing votes. This was intended to be so outrageous as to stoke enough violence to justify the invocation of the Insurrection Act, thereby allowing him to remain in power beyond the expiration of his term, contrary to the will of the voters.
Your opinion appears to be that federal criminal law cannot reach this conduct. Would you like to defend this conduct substantively or would you like to talk about something Al Gore may or may not have done 25 years ago? Wait— don’t answer! We already know your answer to that one.
Where are the originalists? If you brought Thomas Jefferson back from the grave and told him our current operative understanding of the constitution is that the president is absolutely immune for criminal acts— including criminal acts designed to remain in power— how do you think he’d react to that? It sounds a lot like the problem they had with King George in the first place…
Assuming your allegations about the intentions are true (and could be proven in court), which criminal statutes did it violate? Be specific. Are they the statutes he is actually charged with violating?
I don't care what happens to Trump. But I do care about how the law functions. Mr. Wolf makes a plausible case that the criminal statutes cited by the government are poor fits for Trump's conduct. So rebut him, with reference to both the statutes and Trump's conduct, or concede he's right and these particular charges should fail.
That is not an argument for absolute immunity.
As I stated below, I think the conduct falls under 1512 and 371.
“Assuming your allegations about the intentions are true”
“Well, Pat, that’s what the Insurrection Act is for.”
“I don’t care what happens to Trump.”
Hahaha, ok.
Do you have an opinion on the propriety of an AG attempting to cast doubt on the results of a presidential election on the basis of rumors about smart thermostats? And if your answer is “it’s fine”— what evidence have you seen in the three years since that leads you to believe it was a reasonable basis to attempt to obstruct one of the most important governmental functions we have? Something we managed to do for hundreds of years, btw, before 2020…
“Well, Pat, that’s what the Insurrection Act is for.”
Turns out that Trump wasn’t indicted under the Insurrection Act.
“Assuming your allegations about the intentions are true (and could be proven in court), which criminal statutes did it violate? Be specific. Are they the statutes he is actually charged with violating?”
We are still waiting.
“Turns out that Trump wasn’t indicted under the Insurrection Act.”
LOL! No shit. You have beclowned yourself. Congrats.
“We are still waiting”
If you are as brain damaged as you appear to be, you will be waiting for a long time.
Who did you think I was quoting?
I think I am going to save this response for posterity. It’s too perfect 🙂
Hey can one of you huckleberries grab Bruce and take him home and put him to bed? He’s lost the plot
Hey Bruce— make sure to have another cutty sark before responding further
“Turns out that Trump wasn’t indicted under the Insurrection Act.”
“LOL! No shit. You have beclowned yourself. Congrats”
So, you suggest that Trump violated the Insurrection Act (“This was intended to be so outrageous as to stoke enough violence to justify the invocation of the Insurrection Act”), then say that I beclowned myself pointing out that he wasn’t charged under it.
Bruce. Stop digging. You are mistaken.
Where did you copy paste that thing about 1512 from below?
“Well, Pat, that’s what the Insurrection Act is for.”
Who did you think I was quoting here and why?
Because I’m in a very charitable mood I’ll give you one little hint: the person quoted wasn’t referring to part of the federal criminal code
“As I stated below, I think the conduct falls under 1512 and 371”
How, in fact, did his conduct fall under 1512(c) which states that:
You do realize, don’t you, that the Supreme Court, in Fischer v US, heard arguments earlier this month on the DOJ trying to sever 1522(c)(2) from (c)(1), and from those oral arguments seems poised to say that they can’t be, under normal rules of construction, esp ejusdem generis? Obstructing a formal proceeding, by itself is very likely not going to be enough. That obstruction, to be actionable, must probably, alter, destroy, mutilate, or conceal a record, document, or other object, etc.
This shouldn’t be surprising, since § 1522 was part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act (SOX), enacted after the collapses of Enron and Worldcom. The legislative history talks about preventing document destruction and the like, in financial crimes, and nothing about using that part of the statute to criminalize trying to delay the counting of votes in the electoral college.
That is not an argument for absolute immunity.
I realize the supremes are likely to torture the language of 1512 in Fischer. My opinion is in line with the vast majority of the lower courts that have opined.
Would you like to talk about 1512 or defend the conduct?
The LawFare interpretation of 1512(c) used by Jack Smith is the tortured interpretation. It was severed from its context, and violates well established rules of statutory construction. And without 1512(c)(2), 371 isn’t a felony.
18 USC 371 ¶ 2
So, no, I am not going to argue for or against Absolute Immunity here, since I have already argued that it is irrelevant, and you have failed to adequately assert that he had committed a crime.
So… you don’t want to talk about the conduct but you want to talk about the applicability of 1512?
Isn’t that what my original comment said?
Do you want to defend the conduct substantively?
“You do realize, don’t you, that the Supreme Court, in Fischer v US, heard arguments earlier this month on the DOJ trying to sever 1522(c)(2) [sic] from (c)(1), and from those oral arguments seems poised to say that they can’t be, under normal rules of construction, esp ejusdem generis? Obstructing a formal proceeding, by itself is very likely not going to be enough. That obstruction, to be actionable, must probably, alter, destroy, mutilate, or conceal a record, document, or other object, etc.”
The question upon which SCOTUS granted cert in Fischer is:
A ruling that § 1512(c)(2) is limited by § 1512(c)(1) to acts impairing the integrity of evidence would not bar the pending prosecution of Donald Trump in the District of Columbia for violating §§ 1512(c)(2) and 1512(k). The fake elector scheme involved the fraudulent creation and transmission of bogus documents for consideration by Congress in determining the electoral count. That is closely akin to conduct which is prohibited by § 1512(c)(1).
But it is sui generis:
“No previous president has sought to overthrow the Constitution by staying in power after losing an election. Trump is the only one, which is why these questions are being raised now. Pretending that these matters concern the powers of the presidency more broadly is merely the path the justices sympathetic to Trump have chosen to take in order to rationalize protecting the man they would prefer to be the next president. What the justices—and other Republican loyalists—are loath to acknowledge is that Trump is not being uniquely persecuted; he is uniquely criminal.”
He did more than try to stoke arrest. He engaged in a conspiracy to prevent the peaceful transfer of power, including with violence and fraud. Some of the conspirators (Proud Boys and Oathkeepers) have already been convicted and sentenced.
“ He did more than try to stoke arrest. He engaged in a conspiracy to prevent the peaceful transfer of power, including with violence and fraud. Some of the conspirators (Proud Boys and Oathkeepers) have already been convicted and sentenced.”
Plausibly allege then the crimes that Trump committed. This is (mostly) a legal blog, with law professors as the bloggers, and primarily lawyers as commenters. Waiving your hands and screaming “OrangeManBad” is unpersuasive.
Hey, Bruce, why don't you tell us how Joe Biden can be prosecuted for bribery for receiving millions of dollars from China without any evidence that he received even one penny from China or that he performed any act on behalf of China.
He tried to stoke enough unrest to justify invoking the insurrection act in order to remain in office past the end of his term.
You are ignoring the Constitution. A Presidential term ends Noon, Jan 20 . There is no "extending". Succession would fall the Speaker of the House.
Thats whats so maddening. No one plays their film to end.
Well, problem solved. No need to invoke immunity.
Al Gore went to court and gave it up after he lost there.
Trump too went to court, but did not give it up. If he had there would have been no indictment, or even a hint of one.
Instead, he provoked violence, and quite likely engaged in fraud to try to stay in office with zero legal basis.
Stop the disingenuous BS comparisons.
Can't tell if parody or serious...
The person you're responding to literally compared Trump's actual conduct that occurred to the criminal statutes used to charge him with crimes over that conduct. And you call that 'avoiding discussing the conduct that occurred'?
Why not explain why the criminal statutes do actually prohibit the conduct at issue, or are you the one avoiding discussing that?
Yes, that’s what I’m saying the supremes did and what Josh is doing here.
I have described some of the conduct in this thread. My opinion is that the conduct alleged falls under obstruction and also conspiracy to defraud the US.
Show how the behavior falls under “Obstruction” (presumably under 18 USC § 1522(c). And without a conviction under Obstruction, how do you get to “Conspiracy”.
Defend the conduct substanively.
The guy tried to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power… are you really disputing that?
Yes.
What we do know was that Crossfire Hurricane was undisputably a disruption of the peaceful transfer of power, even going so far as to break campaign finance laws and forge evidence.
Simple remedy: move to dismiss the indictment. You don't need immunity to avoid crimes for which an ordinary citizen can't be convicted.
Wait until the Supreme Court hands down their decision in Fischer v US, which is likely to say that 18 USC § 1512(c)(2) cannot be read in solution from 1512(c)(1). The same statute at issue in Fischer is the felony statute under which Trump is being charged (18 USC § 371 requires an underlying felony conviction to be a felony). The reality is that it makes no sense to move to dismiss the indictment, at this point, with the interpretation of 1512(c) needed for a valid indictment being in the hands of the Supreme Court right now.
So much for textualism!
Textualism does not mean the abandonment of all canons of statutory interpretation and all common sense to assign the most expansive definition of a word possible to the imagination, especially in criminal statutes, which are to be read narrowly, not expansively. In both the Trump D.C. case and the January 6 cases, the prosecutors are asking the word "otherwise" to mean "in any other way that can possibly be imagined," but as you may have noticed, the current Supreme Court is not particularly sympathetic to this expansive reading of "catch-all" clauses even with civil statutes, and there is a near-zero chance it will do so interpreting a criminal statute.
The current Supreme Court isn't worried about expansive readings or the like. It just wants to do what it can to lend Trump a hand, and is beclowning itself in the process.
Ask yourself. If this court was totally corrupt and completely committed to returning Trump to power— what would they have done differently than they have already done?
Your side is the side that is corrupt.
From the oral arguments, in Fischer v US (the J6 1512 case), my reading of the oral arguments is ether 6-3 or 7-2 (with Jackson being the possible swing vote) for reversal. I also expect a nonsensical dissent by Kagen and Sotomayer, and a rebuttal by Alito and possibly Thomas and/or Gorsuch to their dissent.
Are you not smart enough to understand that the conduct engaged in by Trump and the conduct engaged in by Fischer and other J6ers is entirely different and therefore a ruling that 1512(c)(2) doesn't apply to what the latter did would in no way benefit Trump?
Both the clear statement rule, and the major question doctrine, are substantive canons to avoid potential violations of the separation of powers.
They are both anti-weasel concepts, to stop the power hungry from growing their power in unanticipated and major ways, at their whim.
Resolving to absolute responsibility for all actions taken in and out of government will devolve all into an anarchy, and not a pleasant anarchy as there will be no one to enforce law because law will not exist, because no one will want to be under absolute responsibility, nor be able to be free of transgression of others.
There is a very concerted effort against former president Trump which has no basis in being healthy for anyone. These efforts, or rather hatreds, predated his 2015 run for office, albeit to a then general dislike of his personality and his station as a non-politician.
Maturity and reason demands caution and explicit examination absent feelings of the matter at hand.
Not only the Supreme Court arguments, but these comments, are disconnected with the reality of what happened leading up to and on 1/6/21.
Doesn’t matter. This is a legal blog, with law professors as bloggers, and primarily attorneys as commenters. The question is not whether or not you think what Trump did on 1/6/21 was horrible. You can make that argument at the NYT, Etc. What is relevant here is whether or not it was criminal, and if it was, whether, and to what extent, Trump has immunity for it.
“primarily attorneys as commenters”
Haha! You think?
The Supremacy Clause tells us that the president must not violate the Law of Nations. Because 18 U.S. Code § 1091 enables international law of genocide in the US federal code, upon departure from office, the DOJ should arrest, try, almost certainly convict, and seek the death penalty for Biden for the US federal capital crime of genocide.
By comparison with Biden's crime, Trump's crime seems like a penny ante peccadillo.
How do you figure?
"The Supremacy Clause tells us that the president must not violate the Law of Nations."
But if he does he's immune!
18 U.S. Code § 1091 enables genocide law of the Law of Nations in the US code.
18 U.S. Code § 2441 enables war crime law of the Law of Nations in the US code.
If we look at international genocide law and at international war crimes law, there are major differences between enablement of genocide law and enablement of war crimes law. In order to criminalize violation of jus in bello for the president, Congress would probably have needed to provide a clear statement of a lack of presidential immunity to war crimes law, but the source of international genocide law is significantly different from the source of jus in bello. The International Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide is crafted to prevent immunization of a person under the national jurisdiction of a ratifier of the Convention, and Congress needed to provide a clear statement of presidential immunity in order to immunize the president from US national genocide law.
"...and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding" tells us that a Judge must adjudicate if Congress has conferred jurisdiction and if an ex-president comes before the Court either by criminal indictment or by civil complaint. (A sitting president won't come before the Court.)
If Congress has not conferred jurisdiction over a violation of the Law of Nations, an ex-president is probably immune to prosecution for this violation of the Law of Nations. A court probably must review immunity specifically with respect to an alleged violation of the Law of Nations.
Not hard for a former president to simply raise an as-applied challenge to the application of a statute. Other criminal defendants do it all the time. Chief executives will probably have an easier time of it too. Indeed, Rick Perry did exactly that, and was successful, when he was indicted for using his veto authority.
The fact that we haven’t had any prosecutions of former presidents is not really a function of presidents not committing crimes, as there are a ton of federal and state offenses that are often interpreted expansively. Rather, it’s that they can easily show that their actions were within their constitutional authority, so there’s no point in prosecuting.
Well since you bring up Perry, he raised the issue before his trial, and pursued an interlocutory appeal up through the Texas Supreme court before his trial and got the indictment dismissed:
"The state’s highest criminal court has dismissed the remaining indictment against former Gov. Rick Perry related to a 2013 veto threat, likely bringing an end to a legal saga that loomed over his final days in office and dogged his failed run for president.
The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals on Wednesday ruled that courts could not limit veto power and that prosecuting Perry over his action violates “the separation of powers provision of the Texas Constitution” and infringed on his First Amendment right to freedom of speech. Two of the court’s nine judges dissented, and one abstained."
Its a good point that Trump shouldn't have to wait for post conviction relief to pursue his immunity claim.
https://www.texastribune.org/2016/02/24/texas-high-court-dismisses-rick-perry-indictments/
I don’t disagree per se. But it’s not actually immunity. It’s just challenging a specific application of the statute. Typically, as-applied challenges have to wait until the trial is over because facts have to be developed. But, as in the Perry case, I think presidents should be able to make a pretrial challenge because the only relevant fact—were they the president at the relevant time?—isn’t disputable. Then it just becomes a legal question that can be answered without additional evidence.
In essence, it’s very similar to immunity, but not quite the same. It’s like light escaping a black hole doesn’t actually have anything to do with escape velocity, but it’s the functional equivalent.
But that’s not even quite right, because absolute immunity wouldn’t allow the prosecution at all, whereas as-applied challenges would fail if the president couldn’t point to a constitutional right, power, or prerogative to justify application of the statute to him.
*justify non-application of the statute to him.
Michael McCrum should have been disbarred for prosecuting Rick Perry.
By rthe way, do you remember Maraxus?
https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?p=3857818#p3857818
I agree the Perry prosecutions were beyond the pale. I never saw that thread by Maraxus. He (she?) seems like an idiot.
Rather, it’s that they can easily show that their actions were within their constitutional authority, so there’s no point in prosecuting.
Now we are adhering to the Constitution. Use the word power.
Is the action a POWER of the Executive Branch?
Example. Does the DoJ have the power to investigate questions concerning the out come an election in a state? If the DoJ has that power, it is only because the President has delegated that power.
That's a weird spelling of the word Congress.
My thought exactly. Congress defines the role of federal agencies and departments. It might give the president certain discretion, even broad discretion, on how to direct executive branch officials. But their authority comes from Congress. The AG can't give the military commands even if the president "delegates" that authority to him because Congress has put that authority in the Secretary of Defense. And the Secretary of Defense can't receive ambassadors because Congress has given that role to the Secretary of State.
Huge difference. The major questions doctrine, agree with it or not, is intended to preserve Congress’ ultimate power to control by preventing Executive administrators from using statutes to go beyond what Congress could reasonably have intended. And other clear statement doctrines - for example, against abrogating treaties, or traditional state powers, or using the spending clause to impose obligations on states, or abrogating the common law — all involve either interference with other sovereigns, or changing well settled law and expectations.
But this clear statement doctrine that Professor Blackman is proposing does none of these things. It is a limitation on Congress itself. The President is not a sovereign (that would be a monarch). And there is no settled understanding based on centuries of tradition that the US President is above the law.
Lets be clear (heh), Blackman isn't proposing a clear Statements Doctrine, it long precedes even the post precocious thoughts Blackman had about the matter.
Here is Jack Goldsmith in 2019 discussing Walter Dellinger's 1995 OLC Clear Statements memo:
"In a much-cited 1995 opinion by Walter Dellinger, OLC described the presidential clear statement rule as follows: “[G]eneral statutes must be read as not applying to the President if they do not expressly apply where application would arguably limit the President's constitutional role.” Please read this sentence carefully. It says that general statutes—i.e., ones like the obstruction statutes that do not specifically regulate the president—“must” (not may) be read as “not applying to the president” if they do not “expressly” apply, where (i.e., if) application of the statute would “arguably” (not definitely, arguably) “limit” the president’s constitutional role. Dellinger also says: “[S]tatutes that do not expressly apply to the President must be construed as not applying to the President if such application would involve a possible conflict with the President’s constitutional prerogatives” (emphasis added). Other OLC opinions contain similarly broad formulations of the clear statement rule."
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/mueller-reports-weak-statutory-interpretation-analysis
Blackman's ego is big enough without sycophants like you giving him undeserved credit for other's work.
Good grief.
Let's follow through on this.
* No traffic cop can write up the police chief for speeding.
* No police department can arrest the mayor for murder.
Since when did we elect kings?
Sure they can.
It is just that they can be overruled.
Let’s follow through on this.
* No traffic cop can write up the police chief for speeding.
* No police department can arrest the mayor for murder.
Do those officer have those actions as enumerated Powers/
Can Obama murder a citizen without due process.
"Even so, I think the clear statement rule is even more justifiable in the context of federal criminal rules for a precise reason: the notion that the sitting President could be prosecuted for a federal crime would have been a non-sequitur to the framers."
This is just making shit up and flinging it around.
And this is the core of it. If there really were centuries of settled tradition, you’d think there would be sources to cite. But he doesn’t cite any. He just says so on his own say-so.
Exactly, as is the major questions doctrine.
Not only that, but since Donald Trump isn't the sitting president, it isn't even relevant to the discussion! Nobody is debating what can be done wrt a sitting president.
That was by far the most pathetic part of the whole diatribe...
I don't know that the possibility of prosecution after the President leaves office changes the calculus very much. Then again, King Charles I could not be reached for comment.
I mean, this guy purports to be a law professor, right? After building a case based entirely on the structure of the executive with the president at the top, he "doesn't know" whether the president not being president anymore "changes the calculus very much?" Wow, I think what doesn't change the calculus very much is having Trump's dick wedged in your mouth.
This is probably as good a time as any to point out a semi-prediction I made about Calabresi’s (and Meese and Mukasey's) assertion that Smith’s appointment was irregular:
“However I don’t think there is any probability the case will be thrown out on that basis, in this hearing.
Best case for Calabresi’s argument is one of the justices will ask a question or two about it, or put a line or two in a solo concurrence or dissent, flagging the issue for more attention in its own motion in Florida or DC and then a cert petition.”
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/04/21/special-counsel-jack-smith-lacks-standing-to-defend-the-d-c-circuits-ruling-on-presidential-immunity-in-the-supreme-court/?comments=true#comment-10530409
From the oral arguments:
JUSTICE THOMAS: Did you, in this
litigation, challenge the appointment of special
counsel?
MR. SAUER: Not directly. We have
done so in the Southern District of Florida
case, and we totally agree with the analysis
provided by Attorney General Meese and Attorney
General Mukasey. And — and it points to a very
important issue here because one of their
arguments is, of course, that, you know, we
should have this presumption of regularity.
That runs into the reality that we have here an
extraordinary prosecutorial power being
exercised by someone who was never nominated by
the president or — or — or confirmed by the
Senate at any time.
So we agree with that position. We —
we hadn’t raised it yet in this case when this
case went up on appeal.
And because the issue hadn’t been raised directly before the Supreme Court, it will likely not be used by the Court to as a shortcut, allowing them to sidestep the messy job of drawing a line where Presidential Immunity starts and ends.
That said, one possible alternative might be to say, in Fischer v US (the J6 1512 case), that 18 USC § 1512(c)(2) cannot be interpreted outside the context of 1522(c)(1) (which makes it essentially an inapplicable document destruction statute). Then, remand this case to determine whether there still is a case, and invite the defendants here to move to dismiss the indictment on those grounds. Or something like that. Fischer is easier, because they wouldn’t be making a decision “for the ages”.
I don’t get the Fischer argument… I find it impossible to read 1552(c) as anything other than (c) Obstruction (1) via document destruction or (2) other means. What’s the point of (2) if (1) is both necessary and sufficient?
I’m sure this debate has been debated but I missed it and remain confused.
it is not necessary for the Supreme Court to rule on absolute immunity. A way out of this zugzwang is to rule that qualified immunity holds, per Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800 (1982) "We therefore hold that government officials performing discretionary functions, generally are shielded from liability for civil damages insofar as their conduct does not violate clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known". Harlow, 457 U.S. at 818. The rationale for the Harlow standard was that “If the law at that time was not clearly established, an official could not reasonably be expected to anticipate subsequent legal developments, nor could he fairly be said to “know” that the law forbade conduct not previously identified as unlawful.” id (emphasis added)
If anything, the Harlow rationale applies with even greater force with respect to all criminal prosecutions.
Problem with your argument is that qualified immunity reasoning has never been applied in the criminal law context. Our criminal justice system does not rely upon the notion that one must have a case on point specifically ruling that the exact same conduct is unlawful before someone can be prosecuted for crimes.
Exactly. And criminal liability already requires mens rea, so the justification for qualified immunity doesn't really work in that context.
the notion that the sitting President could be prosecuted for a federal crime would have been a non-sequitur to the framers.
Not what "non-sequitur" means.
Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say :
In Latin, non sequitur means "it does not follow." The phrase was borrowed into English in the 1500s by people who made a formal study of logic. For them, it meant a conclusion that does not follow from the statements that lead to it. But we now use non sequitur for any kind of statement that seems to come out of the blue.
The usage you complain of seems to fit well enough into the last sentence.
the notion that the sitting President could be prosecuted for a federal crime would have been a non-sequitur to the framers.
is intended to be along similar lines as :
the notion that the Yosemite could be prosecuted for a federal crime is a non-sequitur
the notion that the sitting President could be mailed is a non-sequitur
They all carry the same flavor - "WTF ? The second bit makes no sense attached to the first bit."
So I think you're being overpedantic.
The Merriam-Webster text you cite is not part of the definition. It is a comment on it - basically showing that people use the term incorrectly.
It is a comment on it – basically showing that people use the term incorrectly.
It doesn't seem to me that they're saying it's an incorrect usage that some people use.
But we now use non sequitur for any kind of statement that seems to come out of the blue.
"we now use" isn't really the same as "some ignorant people incorrectly use"
Of course Merriam-Webster isn't the Lord High Executioner of Usage, but after a while if the hoi polloi (sic) start using a usage commonly enough, it stops being incorrect.