The Volokh Conspiracy
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Cruel AND Unusual?
On Monday, the Supreme Court will hear argument in an Eighth Amendment case, City of Grants Pass, Oregon v. Johnson. One thing I will be watching for is whether the justices in their questions treat "cruel and unusual" as two separate requirements, or as one.
Here are a few paragraphs from "Necessary AND Proper" and "Cruel AND Unusual": Hendiadys in the Constitution:
Read as a hendiadys, "cruel and unusual" would mean "unusually cruel." If "unusual" is taken as a term of art meaning "contrary to long usage," then the hendiadys would mean "innovatively cruel."
If "cruel and unusual" means "innovatively cruel," then there are no sequenced inquiries into whether a punishment is "cruel" and then "unusual." There is a single inquiry into innovation in cruelty. It is true that one could break this single inquiry into two analytical steps. First, is this punishment innovative? Second, does this punishment's innovation increase cruelty? Yet that is very different from the two steps associated with a two-requirements view. Those who see the phrase as containing two requirements typically ask first whether a punishment is cruel and then whether it is unusual, treating the two as distinct and unrelated inquiries. But if the phrase is taken as a hendiadys, as an essential unity, then these two inquiries—is the punishment innovative? and does the innovation increase cruelty?—are not really distinct at all. One tells the interpreter to look for innovation; the other tells the interpreter what type of innovation to look for.
In short, if the phrase is taken as a hendiadys, the prohibited punishments would not be ones that merely happen to be both cruel and unusual. Rather, the Clause would prohibit punishments that are new in their cruelty. A new, more painful form of capital punishment; a new, more damaging mode of incarceration (perhaps such as solitary con- finement); a new, more demeaning restriction on the freedom of movement of released offenders—all would be "innovatively cruel."
. . .
The fears expressed by the Anti-Federalists were not without foundation. Indeed, the first Congress prescribed the death penalty for anyone convicted of murder in a place under exclusive federal jurisdiction— adding, for the benefit of science and for greater deterrence, that the court could require "that the body of [the] offender . . . be delivered to a surgeon for dissection."
In other words, the concern behind the Cruel and Unusual Punishments Clause was about progress. But it was not Herbert Spencer's view of social progress as much as it was William Hogarth's view of the rake's progress. Times change and things can go downhill, and when they do, there needs to be something in the Constitution to resist the devolving standards of decency.
A slide into severe punishments was not, however, thought to be inevitable. Although there was little discussion of the Cruel and Unusual Punishments Clause at the time of its ratification, what discussion there was shows a more subtle, two-sided view of innovation: Legislators should be constrained from innovations that increase cruelty, but they should be encouraged to adopt innovations that ameliorate it. The reading given here exactly fits that two-sided view: "Cruel and unusual" is a hendiadys that prohibits not all innovation in punishment, but only innovation that brings new cruelty.
Second, this reading can lead to an inquiry that is better suited to judicial decision making. What makes this second advantage possible is that a hendiadic reading of the phrase allows a broad, non-evaluative reading of "cruel." If "cruel" is taken as an evaluative term, judges are forced to make absolute judgments about what is or is not cruel. That is a difficult question. Of course some punishments are more cruel than others, but the point of difficulty is the constitutional cut-off. If punishments are be- ing judged on whether they are cruel in a sense like "unjustifiably cruel" or "malevolently cruel"—then the question is an inescapably moral one, a question on which individual judgments are likely to vary widely. If the question is shifted to an inquiry into the subjective intentions and knowledge of government officials, that inquiry too is one on which individual judgments will diverge. Nor is the question made easier by directing it towards a moment in history, as in, "What was considered cruel in 1791?" That is still an abstract moral question, yet with the added difficulty of being a question the present is asking of the past.
But the judicial task changes if the phrase is read as a hendiadys and "cruel" is understood in the sense of "harsh." If what sorts the constitutional punishments from the unconstitutional ones is not whether they are "unjustifiably cruel," but whether they are "innovatively harsh," then the judicial inquiry is a comparative one. Judges would not be determining the quantum of cruelty that is constitutionally permissible, but they would instead be asking whether a punishment shows innovation in its harshness. This task is comparative, and such a task tends to be more amenable to judicial competence.
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There is a large contingent out there that seems to think any punishment is cruel.
Well Death by "Unga Bunga" would be, for me anyway.
No Snu-snu for you!
There is a large contingent out there that seems to think any punishment is cruel.
Do you mean to say that there is "a large contingent" that would not punish criminals at all? Perhaps you mean that they would simply tell them, "Bad boy! Don't do it again."
I would think that your "large contingent" only exists in your mind, if that was what you meant.
But since judging whether a punishment is "cruel" in proportion to the crime is always subjective, I can easily imagine there being a lot of people that would lean towards "rehabilitation" instead of harsh punishment for basically all crime. If you were just being hyperbolic, then, I might agree.
Well, I’ll define cruel & unusual in the context of this case — and why I no longer ride Amtrak. The one daily train to Amherst (MA) leaves DC’s Union Station before the city’s subway system starts running on weekends and I’ve had enough bad experiences with DC taxis to want to rely on one. And I inquired and was told that Union Station was open all night.
OK, so you show up at 1AM before the Metro stops running and wait for the 7 AM train — the same thing is common at ferry terminals, even post 9-11 although that involves waiting in your car in the parking lot. I had a book but apparently fell asleep and at 5 AM some cop is whacking me — not hard enough to injure me but definitely arrest able were I to do it to him.
This ain’t no hotel he says — I explain that I am waiting for the train and show him my ticket — he says that if I fall asleep again, he’ll rip up my ticket and throw me out on the street. His rational is that if he lets me sleep there, he has to let the homeless sleep there too — even though they don’t have tickets.
I put up with a lot from Amtrak, but I drive to DC now. It’s only 450 miles and I don’t have to deal with this crap. And while I’m not a fan of CPAC being moved to a Maryland resort (not accessible by public transportation), I imagine this was part of why.
Yes, treat respectable tourists like the homeless and you ain’t gonna have respectable tourists much longer…
This is a true story that definitely happened, and the Supreme Court should definitely base its decision on it.
Or to put it differently: Dr. Ed, stop helping.
You are out of line, boy. Quit being an ass.
man, the stuff poor people have to deal with.
The usual Ed fabulism.
The first flaw is why is your car in DC and you're waiting for the train to MA?
If you've lived near Union Station at all you know that the homeless do sleep just outside of Union Station, the police do not patrol the parking which is some distance outside of the station.
And a cop threatening to tear up your ticket (while chatting about the rationale) is the implausible cherry on top.
You usual idiocy. If you think cops don't do that kind of stuff, you have lived a sheltered life.
I was not speaking generally about the kind of stuff cops do, of course.
You’re strawmanning to defend the honesty and character of Ed? Wow, you really are a terminal contrarian.
"The first flaw is why is your car in DC and you’re waiting for the train to MA?"
I was discussing a ferry terminal located 700 miles north of DC
"If you’ve lived near Union Station at all you know that the homeless do sleep just outside of Union Station, the police do not patrol the parking which is some distance outside of the station."
I didn't even know there WAS a parking lot there, but if I had a car down there, it'd been in my hotel parking lot.
And a cop threatening to tear up your ticket (while chatting about the rationale) is the implausible cherry on top.
At 5AM in an empty station?
"I inquired and was told that Union Station was open all night."
Weird thing to call a ferry terminal.
I'm just glad the officer was so chatty yet threatening. Really plausible stuff.
"This ain’t no hotel he says — I explain that I am waiting for the train and show him my ticket "
"I was discussing a ferry terminal located 700 miles north of DC"
Why were you waiting for a train at a ferry terminal?
The other interesting thing here is applying it to sleeping in a legally registered & parked vehicle. In most states, vehicles are considered private space -- uninvited guests do not have a right to enter them the way they do a city park.
It's the trespass from public property that's going to get really messy because that means that the person (licensed by the state) can't drive through town? And then one of the conditions of a state receiving Federal highway funds is that the state not "discriminate" against out of staters, so someone moves to Idaho, and then drives through this town?
And I keep coming back to suspension of a basic right (to walk down a public sidewalk or through a park) for an unpaid fine.
I don't understand Oregon law but they are making end runs around the state here. And on a more realistic basis, define "pillow" and "blanket" -- first, this is Oregon (SNOW) country so only a damn fool doesn't have blankets in the car at least in the winter (which means year round) and then a long heavy coat works better than many blankets and a backpack makes a pillow.
I'm surprised that 8th Amendment is the only challenge to this.
OTOH, when you have druggies shooting up on Boston Common -- and you do on a warm day, they sleep it off in the sun -- that's a problem...
As usual, you can count on Dr. Ed for the dumbest possible take.
No, it's only the dumbest take until someone like you or DMN responds to him.
You know, when you find yourself reflexively defending a serial fabulist like Dr. Ed based not on any substance, but simply because he defends your side (even when he is usually making up facts, or advocating violence), you might want to reconsider whether you are engaging in discussion or merely fandom.
Serial fabulist my arse.
The ordinance would be one thing if it involved just park lawns & sidewalks, but now that they have extended it to private motor vehicles, they've opened up a whole can of worms including the FMCA which essentially REQUIRES drivers to sleep in their parked trucks.
"Serial fabulist my arse."
So says one who doesn't know his burro from a burrow.
Dr. Ed,
Not too put too fine a point on it, but you do have the habit of coming up with anecdotes that always happen to support what you want to say, and when there are facts that can be verified, tend to be ... well, just not accurate.
Look, it is what it is. Maybe in your mind you are just one of those people who loves telling tales, and you don't think people should bother checking into how big that fish really was. But to the extent that you are asking others to take your word for it on these various stories you are providing, there is a reason that people don't put any validity in your comments.
On the internet, no one knows you are a dog. But at a certain point, if you keep talking about Alpo, they might begin to assume that.
I do not make things up.
https://content.amtrak.com/content/timetable/Vermonter.pdf
Here is today’s Vermonter Schedule — it now leaves on SUNDAYS at 7:30 because it saves an hour on the straight new track through Northampton instead of having to make a 3 point turn in Palmer and then take a speed-restricted track to Amherst.
Note the uniform departure and arrival times in St Albans, VT — it’s called the Vermonter because the State of Vermont is paying for it and hence gets to dictate when it will be in Vermont. It used to leave WAS earlier on Sunday mornings, memory is 7AM but it might have been even earlier as the arrival times in VT were the same.
I don’t know what other verification I can possibly produce — it’s a matter of public record that the DC Metro’s Sunday hours are7AM to Midnight. And that the Maine State Ferry Terminal is located at 517A Main Street in Rockland, Maine — about five miles north of where the railroad tracks have always ended and 75 miles from where Amtrack’s Downeaster ends (Brunswick, ME).
I’m told that when FDR was going to Campobello Island for vacations, he’d take the train to Rockland and then transfer to motorcade for the remaining 150 miles. There were tracks up to Bangor and then across to Brewer and down to Ellsworth (and MDI) and instead a branch line that went to Calais but this was shorter and likely quicker.
Again, I don’t make things up — I’m not creative enough to make things up.
"I do not make things up."
FTW
“I don’t make things up”
“Embassies are sovereign territory”
That's a lot of projection, dude. Objectively, reflexively whining about his comments involves less novelty and thought than the original comment.
Read as a hendiadys, “cruel and unusual” would mean “unusually cruel.”
Why not “cruelly unusual” ?
But if the phrase is taken as a hendiadys, as an essential unity, then these two inquiries—is the punishment innovative? and does the innovation increase cruelty?—are not really distinct at all.
Why is it required that “the innovation increase cruelty” ? The innovation might reduce cruelty but still be innovative. Or it might leave the crueltyometer unchanged, while still being innovative.
A good practical reason for rejecting the Bray theory is that it requires the courts to judge variations in the crueltometer reading, rather than allowing them simply to note “cruelty” – yes ! The former requires all sorts of enquiries and finely tuned – and highly discretionary – moral and emotional sensitivities, whereas the former requires a much less esoteric piece of equipment.
"Why is it required that “the innovation increase cruelty” ? The innovation might reduce cruelty but still be innovative."
This is like reading the excessive fines clause to also prohibit unusually small fines. You might be able to chop logic finely enough that it sort of makes sense if you squint hard, but it's still fundamentally silly.
I beg to differ.
"Excessive" necessarily requires "greater than."
"Unusual" necessarily requires "not usual."
You would have to strain pretty hard to call a smaller than usual fine "excessive." You'd have to go somewhere like - the proper range for the fine is $100-$200, the fine imposed was $5, that's an excessive difference from the low end of the fine range. Where a $80 fine would not be "excessively" below the fine range. ie the "excess" refers the size of the difference from the normal range, not to the size of the fine itself. As I said - a real strain.
But I agree that in the context of the amendment - which has to do with protecting the perp from over-eager judicial sadism, ruling out unusually small amounts of cruelty would be an idiosyncratic result.
But say the usual punishment for burglary was to be jailed for a year, and to have your pinky (on your dominant hand) cut off. What if the judge sentenced you to a year in jail, and to be tortured (by an enthusiast) for a weekend (but with no permanent damage inflicted.) Is the new - and definitely "unusual" - punishment imposed by the judge more cruel, or less cruel, or of the same cruelty, as the orthodox punishment ?
Who can say ? Or rather, different people will have different views on the question. But IMHO, a weekend of (good, solid, heartfelt) torture is pretty cruel. And since it's unusual, I'm happy to say that 8A disallows it. Notwithstanding that if you polled the public, maybe 67.35% of the public might say it's less cruel than having your pinky cut off.
I confess that I am back aboard my favorite horse - the evil of judicial discretion. Permitting the judge to impose any kind of unusualness in the sentence is playing with fire. In many cases the megalomania is only just below the surface - anything that allows a judge discretion adds kindling.
If there's any group of people in the land who need to be hogtied ferociously, and prevented from moving a single toenail out of line, it's not criminals. It's judges.
"anything that allows a judge discretion adds kindling."
Judges in the 1970s using "discretion" led to the highest crime rates in US history. Took decades to rein it in with mandatory minimums, 3 strike laws and parole limits.
Why would you think it would have anything to do with judges or sentencing? Surely it was the presence of Buddhists, whose numbers increased in the US in the 1970s, that caused the increased crime rate.
After all, everybody knows it’s a scientific fact that pirates prevent global warming.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikaandersen/2012/03/23/true-fact-the-lack-of-pirates-is-causing-global-warming/?sh=186a4c0c3a67
My reaction to the article was much the same as Lee Moore's, expressed here. Given that any punishment can be regarded as cruel (or else the criminally-inclined would have no incentive to avoid it), under Bray's hendiadys theory "cruel and unusual" would be tantamount to "unusual" or "innovative". This would eliminate our ability to devise new modes of punishment that might be more effective or less costly for society, while being no more unpleasant (or even less so) for the punished.
The example that occurred to me was that of using Singapore-style flogging in place of fines or imprisonment. This would be extremely unpleasant during its administration, and it'd probably take a few days to recover from it, but no permanent damage would be inflicted. Most of us, I think, would choose it, if given the option of that or a months-long term of imprisonment; so in terms of revealed preferences, it'd be less cruel than packing someone off to the hoosegow. But it'd certainly be innovative in its mode of inflicting discomfort, so under Bray's formulation, would clearly be on the wrong side of the Eight Amendment.
This would eliminate our ability to devise new modes of punishment that might be more effective or less costly for society, while being no more unpleasant (or even less so) for the punished.
I’m going to beg to differ, though I accept right away that my opinion is eccentric, and will not be adopted by any court, ever.
I don’t think the bar on “cruel and unusual” punishments applies to statutory punishments, at all. This is for the extremely simple reason that the statutory punishment (if described with reasonable precision) is by definition not unusual. Everybody gets it. That it might be different from what everybody got last week, before the statute changed the punishment, is irrelevant. The statutory punishment is the usual punishment, by definition.
The 8th Amendment “cruel and punishment” thing is a straight copy from the English Bill of Rights of a century before, which was enacted – as was the case a century later in America – when statutes prescribing sentences were more or less unheard of. Sentencing was done by judges and juries and – which clearly provoked the incluison of “cruel and unusual” in the 1689 Bill of Rights – by the King’s judicial poodle, the Star Chamber, which deployed all sorts of fun and unusual punishments.
So “unusualness” was a dangerous feature of pre-1689, and pre 8th Amendment, sentencing, because sentences were not prescribed in statutes. That’s the mischief that “cruel and unusual” is aimed at. Note that in the English case, since “cruel and unusual” was included in an Act of Parliament, it couldn’t possibly bind a future Parliament to limit statutory sentences from being “cruel and unusual” – because in case of conflict the later Act would trump the former.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am not claiming that all this history, including English history, must determine our interpretation of the 8th Amendment. It is the text that rules and textually I cannot see how the usual punishment, as set out in a statute prescribing that punishment, can reasonably be described as unusual. The history is added merely to explain why this textual conclusion is by no means absurd in the historical context in which 8A arose.
While Kim Jong Un's use of Anti-Aircraft guns to execute "Seditious" Generals was certainly "Unusual" and arguably "Cruel", I'm guessing a large contingent of the Conspirators would have no problem if Judge Juan Valdez was to sentence "45" to death (at age 77 isn't any imprisonment a "Death Sentence"?) and what's a Colombian Judge doing presiding over the trail of an Amurican POTUS?
Frank
I wonder how would an AI algorithm read 8A, and apply it to present day reality. What would it get 'trained' on?
Interesting question. You'd definitely have to limit the training not just to actions of government in the United States, but specifically to court-directed punishments. The magnitude of potential "cruelty" in life expands very quickly when you reach beyond those limited examples of court-ordered punishments.
It's silly to look at the 8A through the lens of 1791. If you tested a typical American today on what he/she thinks is either cruel or unusual, or both, you would get a much different picture than what the typical white, voting-eligible American male thought in 1791.
Did the typical American today write the 8th amendment, or ratify it? I'm pretty sure the answer to that is "no".
But the average American today IS entitled to amend the Constitution. There's even a formal process for doing it. It just happens to not be, "Judges deciding that the average American holds different opinions today."
The Framers expected that the Constitution would be pretty easy to amend. Later developments and procedures have made it all but impossible.
“And how!” — Supporters of balanced budget amendments and term limit amendments, thwarted by those with the above complaint, because they would be very popular and likely to pass.
In other words, the side complaining of the difficulty of amending the Constitution decries the federal part of the process, as well as the 3/4 supermajority requirement, both of which get in your way (by design.)
Yet these two amendments you thwarted using the federal part, to avoid the severe risk of easily leaping the other “difficult” bar you decry.
Crocodile tears. Difficulty for thee, but not for me.
US flag burning amendment too. Dems blocked when it would have got 45 states.
See, the Democrats are good for something.
Burning Fags is “Free Speach”?
So you're saying that we need about a hundred amendments to bring the Constitution in line with overall current values?
The Constitution is silent on whether it is to be interpreted as it would have been understood in 1791 or as later Americans would understand it. The mere act of choosing originalism is therefore to place a gloss on it that the document itself doesn't contain. Absent anything in the document itself that specifies an originalist interpretation, you're placing your gloss on it just as thickly as any living constitutionalist.
Go back 233 years from 1791 and you have an era where burning at the stake, torture on the rack, garroting, putting heads on pikes on London Bridge, etc., were common. The men of 1791 would be surprised to find that their sensibilities would be frozen in time for the next 233.
Why do you think that?
They had the humility not to think they were the height of civilization; the Constitution was not intended to, and indeed did not lock in the morality of the 1790s.
Will Baude's research goes into how legally trained people at the time of the Founding understood that everything, especially the Constitution of Britain, evolved under common law practices.
"Will Baude’s research"
Thin reed to base an opinion on.
You assume that your research “into how legally trained people at the time of the Founding understood ” anything is superior?
This is funny, as if Mr Ed were criticizing Einstein’s thoughts on the general theory of relativity.
No, just that Baude's other research is hysterically bad.
No, you don’t like his conclusions so you dismiss them.
Scholarship always has some chance to be in error. You're not really coming at it as a critic.
You don't give a fig about accuracy, you only care about favoring your side.
Einstein DID make mistakes -- see: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-einstein-got-wrong/
"Einstein DID make mistakes "
Of course he did, but as usual, you are entirely missing the point.
Do you have have the qualifications necessary to criticize any of Einstein's observations, conclusions, intuitions or calculations? Almost any dope can read a magazine article pointing out that Einstein got something wrong, but not many have the qualifications to understand what he got wrong and why. I suggest that you are among the unqualified in this regard, as am I.
Example: Einstein's intuition concerning the EPR paradox was likely mistaken to some degree. Do you think that you are able to intelligently discuss what he got wrong, why, and how we know?
They knew that great advances in sensibility had taken place. Many were old enough to remember the transition from British to a new American culture. And they all were prepared for a great western expansion which would bring many more changes.
And how do you know this?
So now Criminals get sentenced to Unga Bunga, Comedians even joke about it with “45”
You have a very strange idea of what things were like in 1791.
I do agree that there wasn't as much burning at the stake.
That said, I happen to think that people today tend to give short shrift to the idea that the Framers did not mean the Constitution (and certainly all terms within it) to be frozen in time, and that they assumed that it would be interpreted in the way that they interpreted things, in the common law system.
That's not to say that originalism and textualism don't have a place in interpretation, but the recent idea of the primacy of originalism is very much a novel concept that is a radical (as in not small-c conservative) attempt to read into the Constitution certain policy goals.
I happen to think that people today tend to give short shrift to the idea that the Framers did not mean the Constitution (and certainly all terms within it) to be frozen in time,
Of course they didn't. Did they really imagine that then-current practices were the ideal, and that "due process," for example, would forever be deemed to be whatever it was then, with no more thinking allowed?
The Constitution, IMO, does not enshrine certain practices (except where they are explicitly laid out.) It establishes principles, and there is no reason our implementation of those principles should match that of 1791, or 1868.
That is one flaw with Baude's argument about "cruel and unusual." It essentially grandfathers in punishments used at the time, with no room to decide that some are unacceptably cruel and unusual.
If they'd meant for the Constitution to be frozen in time, they'd have omitted article V. There's a huge gulf between "frozen in time" and "treated as a blank check".
The problem with judicial 'evolution' of the Constitution, is that the judiciary is a branch of the government, which means you're handing to the government the power to redefine the extent of its own powers and restrictions without having to get the public's approval. All they have to do is claim that public opinion has changed, and they can make changes to the highest law of the land, which then requires you to pursue an amendment to reverse.
So, say 51% of the the federal government supports some change to the Constitution, like getting rid of some basic liberty. The courts helpfully declare that public opinion has shifted, impose the change, and while the 51% had no chance of amending the Constitution to make a formal change to the document, they're easily large enough to PREVENT the amendment that would undo this informal change.
It converts a system where you need the public's buy in to change the Constitution, into a system where you need the government's buy in to STOP changes!
I know you're going to bring up abortion, but this underscores why, if you really thought that abortion should be a constitutional right, you should have pursued an amendment to that effect, instead of counting on the courts always being willing to impose on the political branches a 'right' that wasn't actually in the text of the Constitution.
No Snu-snu for you!
No Snu-snu for you!
It’s easy. Is a modern sentiment to increase freedom of The People? That is in keeping with rights are reserved to the people. No amendment needed.
Is the “sentiment” to increase the power of the power mongers sans amendment? Please.
Doing so is in contravention of design principles of a free society. History is nothing but power mongers increasing their power at their whim, which has not worked out so well, to say the least.
There is no confusion on this issue.
"The Constitution is silent on whether it is to be interpreted as it would have been understood in 1791 or as later Americans would understand it. "
It's also silent on whether it's written in English or para-English, a language which is visually indistinguishable from everyday English except that the words carry different meanings. Are you suggesting that the founders were unfamiliar with the idea of fixity in the meaning of statutory text?
a language which is visually indistinguishable from everyday English except that the words carry different meanings. Are you suggesting that the founders were unfamiliar with the idea of fixity in the meaning of statutory text?
This is pure question-begging. The issue is "What did they fix?"
Why does "no cruel and unusual punishment" mean that all punishments in use at the time are automatically OK? I see no reason to think that, or that it is what the Framers intended.
I think the idea that we should do things the way they were done 200+ years ago is silly.
The bill of rights is to limit the power of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
The States were good to do their own thing. The People are well positioned and capable of deciding proper punishment.
Short memories? Nobody remembers the dogs breakfast, SCOTUS created with Roe?
And then the 14th Amendment happened, which changed the original calculus.
But even that event arguably only moved the Overton window up to 1868.
In any case, the people of 2024 are as free to update the 8th Amendment to reflect today's norms as they are to update the 2nd Amendment. Saying it's "too hard" to follow the clear path established by the Constitution is contemptible.
Short memories? Nobody remembers the dogs breakfast, SCOTUS created with Roe?
If Roe created a dogs breakfast, then Dobbs made it only fit for rats. I would argue that RBG was correct, in that the Equal Protection Clause is where to go to evaluate the question of abortion. As far as I can tell, only women would be legally forced to take on significant risk to their safety (including their own life) to benefit something else living when abortion is banned.
You are attempting to avoid the ineluctable logic of the situation. Just as both rich and poor are forbidden to camp on public property, so are men and women alike forbidden from obtaining abortions.
Right. And at one time, both white people and black people forbidden from marrying someone of the other race. Both heterosexuals and homosexuals were only permitted to marry someone of the opposite sex. That's all equal protection of the law, right?
Sorry, but no. Besides the unjust history of that kind of argument, this particular example also doesn't make any sense. If a man can't become pregnant, then even referencing whether he could or couldn't legally obtain an abortion is nonsensical.
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
" If a man can’t become pregnant, then even referencing whether he could or couldn’t legally obtain an abortion is nonsensical. "
Do you think?
Only Women can get pregnant? Where you been Rip Van Winkle?
The argument in the mid '90s was that Roe didn't go far enough -- that there was a "Male Roe" needed -- a ruling that as the mother had the sole legal right to kill or raise the child, the father's financial responsibility would be limited to the lesser of the two -- that he had to pay the full cost of *an* abortion, with the mother having the choice of having it or not, but that would be the limit of his financial responsibility.
Please cite to someone (sane) making that argument.
But, Mr Ed doesn't make things up so it must be true!
https://www.care-net.org/abundant-life-blog/a-pro-choice-dilemma-should-men-be-forced-to-pay-child-support
https://ncfm.org/know-the-issues/mens-rights-issues/
"sane."
Your first link disagrees with the argument, and the second mentions it only in passing.
Well, if we want current Americans to decide whether it's too cruel & unusual to pass, then we would simply use the ordinary democratic process; the voters can decide. Turns out the laws at issue in Grant's Pass are overwhelmingly popular.
Which puts people who say the death penalty is always cruel and unusual in a tough spot. "We have to overturn these laws because the 8th Amendment requires it. Well, the people who drafted and enacted it didn't think so, but that doesn't matter because those guys don't know anything, we mean modern values. And no, we don't mean the modern values of the voters, those people don't know anything either. It's my made up 8th Amendment that must triumph!!!"
I have not checked deeply into the Grants Pass briefing, but I imagine there were also laws against vagrancy in the founding era and you could not, e.g., simply pitch a tent in the lawn of the Executive Mansion. If so, then that's a conclusive historical checkmate, Grants Pass wins.
Only if we abolish anti democratic institutions like the electoral college and two senators per state so that elections accurately reflect where the country actually is. Can’t have it both ways. Can’t appeal to democratic elections when we don’t have democratic elections.
That might maybe be relevant for federal laws, although not really-- that's the system the states agreed to when they signed up. It's a complete non sequitir as applied to municipal ordinances (as in Grants Pass) and the death penalty at the state level (as most death penalty cases are).
1. 14th Amendment.
2. If your disdain for the applicability of the 8th Amendment to states and municipalities were to be sustained, would that also apply to the applicability of the 2nd?
3. Are you a constitutional sheriff or something?
1) Okay, but at the time of the 14th amendment there were also vagrancy and death penalty laws.
2) The point is that if original understanding doesn’t count (either at the time of the 8th or 14th) *and* current voters opinions about what counts as cruel and unusual don’t count, then who the hells opinion does count? “Well, the guys who drafted and enacted this don’t know anything, and also current voters don’t know anything, only my opinion counts” is pretty freaking egotistical and not much of a basis for governance. That is distinct from situations where we have to apply constitutional principles to novel situations; we can't look to an original understanding of the 4th Amendment and Computers. We can look to original understanding for vagrancy and the death penalty. The 8th and 2nd apply to the states; I wasn’t disputing that.
3) No.
The states agreed to it 200 years ago; I know of no other type of contract that would still be presumptively valid 200 years later, particularly if the contract contains a clause that makes amending it almost impossible.
And the Bill of Rights impose a federal standard.
Many states entered more recently than that. Regardless, the means for amending it is right there and there’s also the option of founding a new government. If you’re arguing the constitution is void because it’s too old than great; then there’s also no basis for using the 8th or 14th to strike down anything. So Grants Pass and the death penalty win under that standard too.
As I said earlier, though, there is nothing in the actual text of the Constitution that mandates an originalist approach, so you're just applying your own gloss as much as the living constitutionalists are. Where does the text explicitly forbid living constitutionalism?
Get back to me when you locate that passage.
That aside, originalism is a con game, not unlike three card monte, in which the only way to win is to not play, which is what people who actually like the idea of progress are increasingly doing. It basically casts, not just conservatism, but the most extremist form of conservatism, in constitutional concrete, makes it a practical impossibility to do anything about it, and then says, "Oh, I won again; what are the odds?" It deserves to be treated like any other con game.
Another vote for might makes right...
If that's true, then we've got a bigger problem than that: the very legitimacy of the US system of government is based on that contract. Cut that tie and what is left?
Might makes right, and the Constitution is just there for show.
The question is how to interpret the contract. You think the intent of the authors is decisive. I think the Constitution is written in vague generalities so we may as well pick the interpretation that best meets current needs and reflects current values.
As for might makes right, why should a minority of contrarian obstructionists have a veto over everything?
Originalism undermines the legitimacy of the contract because it allows unelected and unaccountable officials to continually frustrate the popular will or claim that common understandings of the document are wrong based on inaccessible sources they cherry-picked from the footnotes of Obscure Originalist Quarterly.
The Anglo-Portuguese Treaty of 1373 is still active. If you think of the Constitution as a treaty, it makes a lot more sense.
of course, if you think of the Constitution as a treaty, that implies that the Constitution stops existing when the treaty stops making any applicable sense... such as in a dystopian landscape following a nuclear war...
I'm reasonably certain that there were no laws against having a blanket roll on the back of your saddle as any prudent person did.
The laws against vagrancy were "having no visible means of support" and those got tossed out by the Warren Court.
It wasn't on the White House LAWN but the so-called "Bonus Army" did camp on the Anacostia Flats in what is now SW DC. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
As as to how things were in a more innocent age, Congressional Staffers used to eat their lunches on the Capitol Steps, and some President (memory is Teddy R) used to swim nude in the Potomac. Lyndon Johnson used to urinate in the parking lot. Young people being young people, would you really be surprised if a few didn't roll out a blanket on the White House Lawn on dark nights to "look at the stars"?
Lyndon Johnson used to urinate in the parking lot.
Ah, glorious times!
What have courts decided is cruel and unusual to date?
Using bullwhips on chain-gang prisoners in some southern state. Stuff like that.
Delaware and Washington have conducted executions by hanging in the last few decades, last one in a Southern State was in the 30’s
"Delaware and Washington have conducted executions by hanging in the last few decades, last one in a Southern State was in the 30’s"
Wrong on two counts:
Delaware is a southern state. Last of two southern states to free its slaves.
Louisiana was still hanging people into the 40s.
And I see that not only are you guilty of random capitalizations, you are also a fan of the greengrocer's apostrophe. Or, as you might write, Greengrocer's Apostrophe.
Somehow I missed where Delaware was in the Confederacy. Also, Parkinsonian Joe claimed it was a Southern state, QED
Frank
"Somehow I missed where Delaware was in the Confederacy."
Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware were all southern states not in the confederacy. West Virginia, largely below the Mason Dixon, was also a Union state.
Stella, if you want to go after me for accuracy, then be accurate on West Virginia -- which was not LEGALLY a state. It was the pro-unioin counties of Virginia that seceded from Virginia when Virginia seceded from the union. The VA Legislature did not approve this.
This is why Northern ME, NH, & NY don't split off...
I know where West Virginia came from and I am familiar with the arguments about the legality of its origin -- all specious.
I was addressing Mengele's implication that only states illegally seceding were southern states.
"This is why Northern ME, NH, & NY don’t split off…"
No:
"New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress."
Your complaint about WV hinges on your claim that "The VA Legislature did not approve this." Of course, that's your opinion.
Having slaves does not change the geographic location of a state.
Yes, and Delaware is a southern state by geography. Also, there is a high correlation between states which are southern states by geography and those that were still slave states during the existence of the pseudo nation the CSA.
Its north of the Mason Dixon line, commonly used to divide south from north.
"Its north of the Mason Dixon line, "
1. No, it's not. It's mostly east of the Mason Dixon line.
2. "The geographic location of a state" determines whether it is a southern state or not. The M-D line is a political line, not geographic line defining, mostly, the boundary between PA and MD and MD and Delaware.
3. The M-D line portion that mostly correlates with what is and is not a southern state east of the Mississippi is about 39°43′20″ N. States mostly below are southern states and those above are northern states, by geography. All states north of the Ohio (NW territory) are northern states.
Del. is entirely north of the southern part of Ohio, all north and west of the Ohio River. You have to get far up the Ohio River {about Bridgeport] to be northwest of Del.
You are giving pointless pedantry a bad name.
I think you will find that Delaware has a different growing season due to its proximity to the ocean.
"Having slaves"
Slavery persisted into the 19th century, to some degree, even in some northern states. New Jersey, for one, still had some legally enslaved persons into the 1860s.
The word "hendiadys."
I hope the author of that law review article got paid by the word....
"hendiadys • \hen-DYE-uh-dis\ • noun. : the expression of an idea by the use of usually two independent words connected by and (as nice and warm) Examples: The hendiadys "good and loud" appears in many reviews of the concert. "
That does not seem to me to be sufficiently determinative that cruel and unusual means 'unusually cruel'. similarly, the term of art reading of 'innovatively cruel' does not seem the only way to read the phrase as a term of art.
In law school, 'cruel and unusual' was actually used to introduce terms of art to us. I.e. that reading the text here is actually wrong, as the intended and originally understood meaning was different.
Though they never got to defining exactly what it did mean. To be a bit functionalist, my take was always that it operated as some threshold of outrageous to current public sentiment, with some originalist grumpiness in the dissent that was never going to go anywhere.
To be a bit functionalist, my take was always that it operated as some threshold of outrageous to current public sentiment, with some originalist grumpiness in the dissent that was never going to go anywhere.
I take the same meaning from the 8th Amendment. Unusual doesn't only mean "innovative" or "new". It can mean outside of what is expected. In fact, being new or innovative doesn't seem to be the . . . usual . . . way to use that word.
“Some threshold of outrageous to current public sentiment.”
It’s pure living constitutionalism and it’s also the best approach to the amendment. More than most constitutional provisions, “originalist” interpretations really diverge from what the public understands the provision to mean. So we have to have thousands of pages of “UM Ackshually” to get a justification for why the common understanding of an important constitutional provision is wrong. This tends to destroy the broader legitimacy of the document because only the high priests of law know the real answer unlike the rubes in the public.
only the high priests of law know the real answer unlike the rubes in the public.
And this is a little odd for another reason. Many Americans are asked to take an oath to support and defend the Constitution. This includes people taking public office, immigrants being naturalized, military recruits, maybe others.
But now come the originalists to tell them all that they don't really understand their oath, and the document can is only understood by said high priests.
Really?
I would read it as "cruel, and we don't consider any of the existing punishments to be cruel, so any cruel punishments are also unusual too". And no, this doesn't make "unusual" a meaningless word, because it makes the process of determining cruel a lot easier. Death penalty unusual? No? Then you don't get to even argue that it's cruel.
Alternately, maybe it means "cruel punishments, and also unusually severe punishments". Executing you for stealing bread isn't allowed because it's cruel. Putting you in jail for a year for stealing bread when everyone else gets 3 months is also not allowed because it's too high a sentence compared to what is usually given for that crime, whether you can argue that it's cruel or not.
I wouldn't have thought "nice and warm" or "good and loud" were great examples of hendiadys, because in both examples the first word just modifies or intensifies the second. You see other similar uses, like "nice and neat" or "good and hard."
I always thought that hendiadys referred to inseparable pairs, like "part and parcel".
From the article: "It is true that one could break this single inquiry into two analytical steps. First, is this punishment innovative? Second, does this punishment's innovation increase cruelty? Yet that is very different from the two steps associated with a two-requirements view."
The above silliness falls somewhere between "six in one hand, half a dozen in the other" and "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin."
1) I agree.
2) What would be the better mode of analysis for whether a government action runs afoul of the 8th?
Well, we could just start with the text and the meanings of each term and then use a series of hypotheticals to whittle down to basic outline of what is forbidden by the 8th amendment. Then apply that reasoning to each case. Examples below.
Suppose the usual penalty for 1st degree murder is death by hanging but no skilled hangman is available.
1) The judge sentences the convicted to death by firing squad which is not normally employed outside of military, but also is not seen as more cruel than hanging, since each, when done correctly, results in instantaneous death. Since not cruel or particularly unusual, this would not seem to run afoul of the 8th amendment.
1a) The judge sentences the convicted to death by a novel method which results in instantaneous death with no more potential for pain than commonly used methods. Since not cruel even though unusual in method for carrying out the normal penalty(death), this does not run afoul of 8A.
2) In a particularly heinous case of murder, a judge sentences the convicted to be put to death by slow and painful process. That would be both cruel and unusual.
In other instances the penalty might be cruel and unusual for a particular offense. Suppose that hanging is the usual penalty on conviction for specified capital crimes. But a judge sentences a person to hanging for a very minor offense. Here the cruelty is in the overly harsh sentencing, and the unusual character of the penalty is that it is far outside the normal range for the given offense. A thing can be both cruel and unusual for the very same reason -that it is highly disproportionate to the offense.
This looks a lot like Comte portray standards of morality.
Which I’m fine with but a lot of others may take issue with since it’s not the 1790s directive meaning.
Comte portray = contemporary.
What a difference a word makes. If it had been cruel "or" unusual punishment would we be having this discussion?
"If it had been cruel “or” unusual punishment would we be having this discussion?"
I suspect we would. Most people seem to just change their interpretations of words and phrases as needed to reach toward their desired outcomes. Words, in the hands of partisans, have little inherent meaning.
Did either of you read the OP?
It manages to discuss how non-literal definitions of cruel and unusual can be in the mix, and yet doesn’t fall headlong into useless legal realist cynical wankery.
Broad-spectrum assumptions of most people being in bad faith is a boring and false take. Everyone's got their biases, but they are not everpresent.
Really, this cynicism is just a way of saying you are the special one and above it all.
You aren’t, and you aren’t.
"Did either of you read the OP?"
As we have all learned by now, reading the OP might slow people down from posting their opinions, which they have formed long before considering what the OP might say.
As for reading the source material that a given OP usually excerpts? That's for, like, nerds.
Internet comment sections aren't really the place for nuanced conversations. The VC used to be somewhat better in the past, but even those better days of yore weren't that amazing. Just a little more focused.
Yep. But good to see your posts, Loki.
Loki has been around for a long time -- even before WaPo, I think.
As for the quality of discussion, it seems that both the change to WaPo and the change to Reason have both served to debase it; the latter change being the worse, the intellectual quality of the WaPo cranks not being as abysmal as that of the Reason crackpots.
I haven't been around since the very beginning, but close enough.
As in I can still tell you about the controversial outing of Juan Non-Volokh and the Cramer controversy (which, given the recent tenor, seems almost remarkable).
I remember the Juan Non-Volokh brouhaha and the rantings of a certain philosopher/law professor then at the University of Texas who shall remain nameless by me as if he were a certain Transylvanian. Memory of Cramer eludes me.
Cramer had some ... interesting things to say about, um, "teh gayz."
And he went from being a contributor (VC'er) to a commenter.
Either Cramer preceded my interest in The Conspiracy or he has escaped my memory. Encounters with the World's Greatest Philosopher, for some reason, have been much more memorable.
Are you talking about this?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315336839_An_Open_Secret_Child_Sexual_Abuse_as_One_Possible_Cause_of_Homosexuality
It looks like serious, well-supported research. Are you one of those anti-intellectuals of the left who oppose research that could lead to conclusions you dislike, and try to tar the researchers as prejudiced – when it is you that has prejudged?
Can you provide a link to "the Cramer controversy"? I do not recall, nor can find, Cramer ever being a Volokh contributor. The only controversy I can find about Clayton Cramer on Volokh or elsewhere was the hoplophobes who hated it when he exposed Michael Bellisles fraudulent research.
As for the quality of the discourse, I would say that there used to be a much higher population of lawyers, law professors, law clerks, and law students. And the people who weren't familiar with the law were more interested in learning the legal issues and discussing them. That's not to say that there weren't partisan arguments on occasion, but it was much more law-focused.
Now, well, it's more like ... "Can you believe an actual legal discussion broke out amidst all the partisan posturing????"
(We also miss the more frequent, and nuanced, contributions of VCers like Orin Kerr.)
That aligns with my recollection as well.
It’s a real shame. Is there anywhere left that has some of the ~2010 Volokh energy left?
“It’s a real shame.”
It seems that almost all fora that used to host reasonable debate have been overcome by hordes of wankers and Russian trolls.
Popehat, for one, used to be fun mostly because Mr White would clamp down on the miscreants and make them eat paste, metaphorically. Now it's gone.
"“If it had been cruel “or” unusual punishment would we be having this discussion?”
I suspect we would. Most people seem to just change their interpretations of words and phrases as needed to reach toward their desired outcomes. Words, in the hands of partisans, have little inherent meaning."
Well, if you want to know, the reason that there isn't an "or" in the phrase is that "cruel and unusual punishment" was a legal term of art that was known at the time, and was a catchphrase, cited in the common law of England and by Blackstone. It was in the English Bill of Rights of 1689, which would have been well known at the time, and it was thus included in many state constitutions as well (and the version in the English Bill of Rights is copied from the Virginia Declaration of Rights).
"[E]xcessive Bail ought not to be required nor excessive Fines imposed; nor cruel and unusual Punishments inflicted." English Bill of Rights, 1689.
So there wouldn't have been any reason to parse it differently.
"Cruel and unusual punishment" always existed as a singular, non-parsed phrase in my layperson head. It's interesting that you point to it having a non-parsed history.
Whenever questions about it arise, it is almost invariably in the context of a dispute between parties in which one prefers greater permissiveness of severity of punishment, and the other prefers less. My non-expert point was that no measure of clarification of semantics will keep people of different preferences from proposing whatever interpretations support their preferences. More simply: clarification of terminology won't eliminate much of the controversy.
loki's point, and that of the OP, is that the actual meaning here does not turn on the conjunction but on the phrase as a whole.
Thanks for Sarcsplaining that.
Wouldn't being sentenced to Unga Bunga for Life be worse than Death by Unga Bunga?? It's certainly kept me on the Straight and Narrow.
Frank
I don’t think this distinction will be relevant to resolving the case at hand. In addressing whether homeless people can be fined for sleeping in public places, the fundamental question is whether the Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause addresses only overly severe punishments, however overly severe might be conceived, or whether it serves as a form of backhanded substantive due process, prohibiting imposing ANY punishment on particular activities.
The Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause has historically been applied only to require a lesser punishment for the offense, not no punishment. Moreover, fines are entirely covered by a separate clause, the Excessive Fines Clause. Imposing a fine is never cruel and unusual punishment within the meaning of the Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause. Indeed, a fine of less than $1000 is neither cruel nor unusual; it is well within historical fines that are imposed for minor offenses, adjusted for inflation. Whether it is too excessive for poor people to pay, and I think sometimes it may be, is an Excessive Fines question, not a Cruel and Unusual Punishment question.
I think the 9th Circuit simply erred in holding that the cruel and unusual punishment clause can be used to strike down criminalization of conduct whose criminalization is not otherwise prohibited by the Constitution. I think the Supreme Court will so find.
And in doing so, it will leave the question of what punishments are cruel and unusual for another day.
Perhaps some other clause in the constitution prohibits this ordinance. But the Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause does not. Whether the fine is excessive, whether the poor have a due process or equal protection right to sleep on the streets, etc., are all questions for another day.
" think the 9th Circuit simply erred in holding that the cruel and unusual punishment clause can be used to strike down criminalization of conduct whose criminalization is not otherwise prohibited by the Constitution. I think the Supreme Court will so find."
While I disagree with the 9th Circuit opinion, it is premised on a SCOTUS case. Robinson v. California, 370 US 660 (1962) held that it was unconstitutional to punish someone for their status, rather than an act (in other words, you can punish them for buying or selling drugs, or other conduct involving drugs, but not for being a drug addict).
And the basis was the 8th Amendment (via the 14th).
So technically, the prohibition on criminalizing status, as opposed to acts, is from the 8th, per binding precedent.
(Sorry, that was supposed to be a nested reply to ReaderY, supra, not a new comment.)
It’s pretty clearly conduct under Robinson. Lawrence v. Texas significantly relaxed if not eradicated the traditional status/conduct distinction. I don’t think this court will be interested in expanding Lawrence. After all, to paraphrase Anatole France, this law, in its majestic equality, prohibits the conduct it prohibits to rich and poor alike.
Vagrancy statutes were struck down on Due Process grounds in Papichristou v. City of Jacksonville. But they were struck down on vagueness grounds. The drafters of this ordinance seem to have managed to specify the conduct it prohibits clearly enough to pass vagueness muster.
Again, I wrote that I disagreed with the decision by the Ninth Circuit.
I was just replying to note that under binding precedent, the 8th is actually the reason you can't criminalize status. I express no opinion on that other than to say that's the case.
To the extent that a person is arguing that a law is criminalizing status as opposed to an act, that's the precedent. For now.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/21/us/james-parker-dartmouth-stabbings-prison-release/index.html
These are the people liberals want to put back on the street.
Parker was convicted of "being an accomplice to second degree murder in 2004[...] He was sentenced to 25 years."
Do you think that was an inadequate sentence?
When paroled, he will have served about 20 years. Do you think that's an inadequate amount of the 25 years to have served before parole?
Are the victims getting paroled? If not, then yes and yes.
"Are the victims getting paroled? If not, then yes and yes."
That's just stupid.
Should all criminal acts that result in a victim's death receive life without parole? Should there not be different sentences for such crimes of different depravity, different degrees of homicide, different elements of participation? Should, for example, drunk drivers who cause a death be incarcerated forever because the victim[s] cannot be paroled?
Perhaps in Bob world, or maybe Iran.
"Should all criminal acts that result in a victim’s death receive life without parole? "'
Of course not silly. Many should be executed.
Did you read the article? The "accomplice" was obviously a plea.
Home invasion, after which " Parker then slit Susanne Zantop’s throat" He was not some fool who got conned into helping, he was a willing thief and murderer.
"Did you read the article? The “accomplice” was obviously a plea. "
That's my interpretation as well.
Then the question becomes: should copping a plea to a lesser crime in order to receive a lesser sentence be forbidden?
"Of course not silly. Many should be executed."
So that's it, either life without parole or death no matter what the conviction is for so long as the crime resulted in a death?
Just goes to show, there's no point in arguing with some bell-ended fool who has locked into old testament logic.
"So that’s it, either life without parole or death no matter what the conviction is for so long as the crime resulted in a death?"
For intentional murder, yes. I never said or implied that for negligence or other acts, such a sentence is appropriate.
He slit a woman's throat. For some money. He should never step outside a prison except in a coffin.
What are the odds you’d keep this position if I described a US or Israeli war crime or an unjustified killing by a police officer?
For what it’s worth, I’m on Bob’s side on this one. Either the intentional killing was justifiable, in which case nothing should happen to you, or it wasn’t, in which case you should never breathe free air again. There’s room for disagreement as to which side to put individual cases on, but I don’t see any principle where an intentional killing should result in 25 years in prison.
I disagree on quite a few grounds.
First, that one-size-fits-all justice like that almost always results in miscarriages of justice.
But more importantly, what principle of punishment are you using?
It must be retributive or deterrence, since we have plenty of examples of killers who have rehabilitated upon the completion of their sentence...which means your principle would deny all of those people freedom. People can sometimes change, and our current system recognizes that.
Deterrence doesn't really work at the higher level of punishment - criminals tend to either not think or think they can get away with it because they're special.
So yeah, if you want one-size-fits-all retributive justice, you've got the model. Doesn't really reflect a culture I much want to live in though.
"which means your principle would deny all of those people freedom. People can sometimes change, and our current system recognizes that."
He slit a woman’s throat. For some money.
That is what you all are defending. He took her life, everything she had or would ever have. Who cares if he "reformed".
If you and Bob feel so strongly about this why don’t you run for prosecutor in your respective jurisdiction and refuse all pleas in murder cases and take them all to trial as capital charges. I’m sure that will work out well.
It's pretty clear that's not the scope I'm discussing, Bob so quit with the shitty emotionalist strawmen.
Though you've demonstrated many times over that you are not morally equipped to handle conversations about criminal law, so maybe just fuck off and let grown ups talk.
The funny thing about this convo is that Bob actually practices in a state where this kind of sentence and deal wouldn’t be totally unforeseeable. A state where republicans run things (and before he says some dumb shit about Democratic prosecutors in the larger counties they actually bring more capital cases than other counties).
Prosecutors here might not pursue capital charges if this guy was an adult. They’d likely accept a plea deal that resulted in a sentence other than death or LWOP.
And they’d probably accept a plea deal for 25 to life for a juvenile offender.
It's hard for a prosecutor like you describe to be elected, because many Americans are fuckups with fuck up family members that they envision as a potential defendant someday.
I can’t claim to be an expert on political dynamics in that area, but “I will seek harsh punishments for murderers” doesn’t exactly seem like a toxic message.
I should have been more clear: I wasn’t talking about the electoral politics, but the logistics of refusing pleas in murder cases and going for the max sentence every time. I’m sure the victims’ families will feel great when you inevitably lose some of the trials/get convictions reversed.
"For intentional murder, yes. I never said or implied that for negligence or other acts, such a sentence is appropriate."
"Are the victims getting paroled? If not, then yes and yes."
Those two statements are in contradiction.
Not all. I read the article first, knew it was intentional "1st degree" murder with a plea.
It’s not exactly a contradiction but they’re in tension: the victims in other homicides with other mental states don’t get “paroled” ever either. So why should any sentence be less than death or LWOP in any homicide?
"It’s not exactly a contradiction"
When someone claims that "victims getting paroled" is the standard by which a conviction of less than LWOP may be given and without qualificatiion, the implication seems pretty clear to me. If the implication was not intended, it is, none the less, a justifiable inference to be drawn (but not quartered as that may violate the 3rd amendment, or something.)
The problem is, you are describing first degree murder, but the DA chose to reduce the charges to second degree murder. The 25 year sentence is appropriate to the crime he was convicted of. If you don't like that, oppose plea bargaining, but don't try to further corrupt our legal system by imposing sentences for unconvicted crimes.
Always fun when people not acquainted with Bob's particular brand discover how screwed up his moral compass truly is.
He may not be as showy as Ed, but he's almost as awful.
"he’s almost as awful."
You are defending a man who slit the throat of a woman in a planned attack.
The awful person is the one who looks back in the mirror at you each morning.
Dude, we’ve seen you defend Pinochet and other authoritarian governments that have done similar things plus engaged in sexual violence. You defend QI for some really egregious conduct by police (“need a tissue”) You defend heinous shit all the time. Often with glee.
Stop pretending you’re somehow better or more moral than Sarc because he thinks a 25 year sentence as part of a plea might be appropriate. Also that’s hardly “defending” the conduct so it’s not like you’re being honest here.
If you want people to take you seriously be more honest and consistent.
That is quite clearly not what I'm defending, Bob, don't put words in my mouth you asshole.
"You are defending"
What's wrong with you? Why are you being such an asshole?Nobody is defending Parker and nobody is crapping on the vicims or survivors. He was sentenced for 25 years for the crime he was convicted of and, when paroled, will have served 20 years. Some people of good faith think that's an appropriate sentence for the crime he was convicted of, others don't. Get over it.
It seems fairly clear that he engaged in intentional murder, and I do think that should, at the very least, carry a pretty strong presumption of dying in prison.
Do you disagree?
The flaming liberals in People’s Republics of Oklahoma, Ohio, Utah, Wyoming, and West Virginia among others apparently disagree since they have sentencing options for intentional homicide besides death or LWOP.
From my quick scan, it looks like most of those states require life imprisonment, but give the option of parole. Which is a different problem.
But sure, many states allow people convicted of intentional murder to not have a life sentence. Do you think that’s a good thing?
Yes. Every case is different. For example Cyntoia Brown also murdered someone to rob them. But she was also being sex trafficked at the time. So is death or LWOP really the appropriate sentence?
Do you disagree?
Not necessarily. Personally, I would not find LWOP without parole to be abhorrent for those convicted of "intentional murder," whatever that means. However, when you have a required very harsh sentence for a certain class of homicide, it distorts the justice system in what I consider to be nasty ways. I'm thinking specifically about the fucked up mess that Harris County death penalty obsessed prosecutors created in the latter years of the 20th century.
Lol your virtue signaling defense of victims is so tiresome considering your enthusiastic support of cruelty in other aspects of human life.
You are the expert in tiresome virtue signaling.
My favorite is how you think there's way too much due process except when it comes to Trump where there's nowhere near enough.
It's really not subtle.
That’s because I have more virtue to signal.
The fact that you're a homosexual man means you have no virtue.
From a behavioral modification view, negative reinforcement (punishment) must be both 'cruel' AND unusual.
If it isn't cruel, it isn't punishment.
Imagine being sentenced by a court to eating ice cream each day for five years. Possibly unusual, but not cruel.
If it isn't unusual, it isn't punishment.
Imagine being sentenced to your existing commute for three years. Possibly cruel, but not unusual.
“From a behavioral modification view, negative reinforcement (punishment) must be both ‘cruel’ AND unusual.”
Even if your premise is granted, it doesn’t follow that no punishment can exceed the Constitutional proscription, does it? Surely the ratifiers considered that there must be some punishments that would be forbidden by the 8th Amendment otherwise they would not have ratified it. If, as seems obvious, the framers and ratifiers considered that there might be some punishments for some crimes that would be Constituionally proscribed, what would those punsihments be and who decides such questions?
A fine is cruel and unusual now! Man, is AG James going to be embarrassed.
Why? Was Trump fined for being a homeless (in Brettmore speak) caught camping on public property?
It will be interesting to watch Barrett and Kavanaugh. Barrett perhaps reflects a viewpoint that was once housed in the Democratic party and was once a substantial wing of it, a wing that was socially conservative on issues like abortion, but tended towards liberalism on economic issues and attitudes towards the poor. This perspective was once that of Joe Biden, who was once a prominent member of this wing before abandoning it when it became politically untenable to be a socially conservative, economically liberal Democrat.
Is it common to have more than 100 amicus briefs (Briefs amici? Amici briefs?) filed, even for SCOTUS cases?
As opposed to Gucci briefs?
Homeless folks are again offending our Christian values. Declaring them criminals is only fitting to reflect our refined sensibilities. After all, we are one nation under God with callousness for all.
It seems to me that the "cruel and unusual" clause is very different from "necessary and proper". The federal government is one limited, delegated powers. The "necessary and proper" delegates powers to the government. It follows that all of its requirements need to be met for a power to be delegated. By contrast, the "cruel and unusual" clause limits the powers delegated. If either of its elements is breached then the power has not been delegated. In both cases, the Constitution is being read so as to delegate powers only when all the necessary elements for delegation are aligned.