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Lawsuit Alleging School District Wouldn't Inform Certain Parents About Their Children's "Sign[s] of an LGBTQ+ Identity" Dismissed for Lack of Standing
From today's opinion by Judge Michael Watson (S.D. Ohio) in Kaltenbach v. Hilliard City Schools (a notice of appeal has been filed):
… Plaintiffs allege that, if the District believes a parent holds anti-LGBTQ+ views, the District will not inform that parent if the parent's child shows any sign of an LGBTQ+ identity. The [District's] Policies allegedly work as follows: The District's "default" is that it will tell parents anything important about their children, including things related to LGBTQ+ issues. However, there is a "health and safety" exception to this default. Separately, the District labels people who do not support LGBTQ+ youth as "unsafe." Plaintiffs allege that when a parent is labelled "unsafe," the "health and safety" exception applies and, therefore, the parent will not be told important information. Thus, Plaintiffs allege, if a child reports that the child is struggling with LGBTQ+-related issues, and if that child's parent has been labelled "unsafe," that parent will never be informed about the child's struggles.
Plaintiffs allege that these fears came to pass for one Plaintiff, D.S. D.S.'s child, who was assigned female at birth, was struggling with mental health issues during eighth and ninth grade. At some point, employees at the child's school started using a male name and male pronouns to refer to the child, apparently believing that doing so would help with the child's mental health. D.S.'s child attempted suicide but, fortunately, survived and has received professional mental health care. No one at the school told D.S. that employees referred to the child with male pronouns, until after the suicide attempt. D.S. has since removed the child from the District. D.S. does not allege whether the District labelled her as "unsafe" or perceived her as having anti-LGBTQ+ views.
In addition, Plaintiffs allege that school employees may have exposed students to graphic sexual material. Some school employees wore a badge (the "Badge") that communicates that the wearer supports LGBTQ+ youth. On the back of the badge, there is a QR code that, if scanned, brings up resources and materials related to LGBTQ+ issues. At least some of these resources allegedly contain sexually explicit material….
In-District Plaintiffs … allege that the [District's] Policies violate different rights: (1) Claim IV, freedom of conscience; (2) Claim V, familial integrity; (3) Claim VI, freedom of speech; and (4) Claim VII, due process….
In-District Plaintiffs lack Article III standing to pursue the Claims because they have not alleged an injury-in-fact. To establish injury-in-fact, a plaintiff must point to an injury that is "concrete—that is, real, and not abstract." To reiterate: An "[a]bstract injury is not enough." Rather, a plaintiff "must show that he has sustained or is immediately in danger of sustaining some direct injury as the result of the challenged official conduct[.]"If a plaintiff asserts a risk of future harm, she must show that "threat of injury is both real and immediate, not conjectural or hypothetical."
In-District Plaintiffs' theory for the Claims is as follows: if the District believes a parent does not support LGBTQ+ youth, the District labels that parent as "unsafe." If an "unsafe" parent's child expresses or questions an LGBTQ+ identity (or makes statements suggesting a mental illness), the District may decide that the fact that the parents is "unsafe" warrants a "health and safety" exception to the default policy of telling parents important things about their children. If that happens, the District may offer the child mental health treatment without consulting the parents. These actions, allege In-District Plaintiffs, would violate their rights to freedom of conscience, familial integrity, and freedom of speech. Further, because the District allegedly does all these things under impermissibly vague Policies, the District violates the parents' due process rights.
In other words, if a child expresses or questions an LGBTQ+ identity (or shows signs of a mental illness) to a school official, and if the parent has, or is perceived to have, anti-LGBTQ+ views, and if the school knows about those views, and if the combination of those facts mean the school does not tell the parent about the child's sexual-identity comments, and if the school gives the child mental health treatment without the parent's consent or knowledge, then the parent's rights are violated because the parent is being "punished" for his or her beliefs and speech, is deprived of the ability to make important health decisions for the child, and has suffered these deprivations under impermissibly vague Policies.
The number of "ifs" in the preceding paragraph show why In-District Plaintiffs lack standing. In-District Plaintiffs offer no allegations that their children have told or will tell the school that they are (or may be) LGBTQ+ or that the children show any signs of mental illness. Because In-District Plaintiffs have not plausibly alleged that their children have reported or will report such issues to school officials, they have likewise not plausibly alleged that they will suffer any injury as a result of what the District might do in response to such a report.
Nor do In-District Plaintiffs allege that they have (or are perceived to have) anti-LGBTQ+ views. {True, In-District Plaintiffs allege that they have received "backlash" for filing this lawsuit, but they do not elaborate on what that backlash is or, more importantly, whether that backlash includes being perceived by the District as having anti-LGBTQ+ views. Indeed, Plaintiffs allege that the backlash is not coming from the District but is coming instead from "certain activists in the community."} As a result, In-District Plaintiffs have not plausibly alleged that they were or will be labelled "unsafe" or, by extension, that they will suffer any injury stemming from how the District interacts with parents it believes are "unsafe."
Relatedly, In-District Plaintiffs have not alleged that they do anything else that might earn them the label of "unsafe." One of In-District Plaintiffs' theories is that the District might decide a parent is "unsafe" because of a parent's religion, political view, or associations, and that this decision (and the consequences of it) would violate their First Amendment rights. In-District Plaintiffs do not allege that they have any of the religious or political views, associations, or anything else that might lead the district to believe they are "unsafe" or otherwise anti-LGBTQ+. Neither have Plaintiffs alleged that they want to participate in any of those things but are chilled from doing so because of the District's Policies. Thus, because In-District Plaintiffs have not alleged that they engage in—or want to engage in—any First Amendment activities that might make the District label them as "unsafe," they have not alleged any injury related to the same.
In sum, because In-District Plaintiffs do not allege that their children have told, nor that they will—or even may—tell school officials that they are LGBTQ+ or are experiencing symptoms of mental illness, and because In-District Plaintiffs do not allege that they have any views or participate in any activities that could earn them the label of "unsafe," In-District Plaintiffs do not allege an injury-in-fact….
In- District Plaintiffs [also] seek an injunction enjoining the District from allowing school employees to wear the Badge. In-District Plaintiffs, apparently, fear that their children will scan the QR Code and be exposed to sexually explicit material.
However, In-District Plaintiffs do not allege whether any of their children's teachers—or anyone at their children's schools—wear the Badge. Nor have In- District Plaintiffs alleged that they have any reason to believe that their children will scan the QR code if they see a Badge. Therefore, In-District Plaintiffs have not plausibly alleged any risk that their children will be exposed to the sexually explicit material because of the Badge….
D.S. asserts three claims for damages arising out of the way the District handled her child's mental health issues. In two of those claims, D.S. alleges that Defendants violated D.S.'s constitutional rights to familial integrity and freedom of conscience; D.S. also asserts intentional infliction of emotional distress. Defendants do not seek to dismiss those claims and, therefore, they will proceed.
However, D.S. also asserts several claims for declaratory and injunctive relief (the "Prospective Claims"). In those claims, D.S. seeks a declaration that Defendants violated D.S.'s rights to freedom of conscience, familial integrity, freedom of speech, and due process, and asks the Court to enjoin some of the allegedly wrongful behavior and policies.
To the extent the Prospective Claims are not duplicative of D.S.'s first three claims, they must be dismissed for lack of standing. Declaratory and injunctive relief are both forms of prospective relief. D.S. has removed her child from the District and, thus, there is no risk that the Policies will cause any future injuries (or effects of any kind) to D.S. or her child. As a result, D.S. lacks standing to seek prospective relief….
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Has anyone ever met a transgender that was socially well adjusted? I haven't.
I have never met an intelligent Trump supporter, either; what follows?
I know some very intelligent Trump "supporters" - assuming "supporters" means they cast a vote for him rather than that they wear MAGA hats and attend Trump rallies etc...
In most cases they prefer Trump's policies and anticipated policies over H. Clinton's anticipated policies and/or Biden's actual and anticipated policies. They, however, acknowledge that Trump is far from their ideal candidate in part because he's erratic and in part because he's not very smooth politically.
This does not mean that they like all of Trump's policies (such as his tariffs) but that they are doing a "lesser of two evils" analysis where they consider the progressive option to be much, much more "evil" than the alternative.
Far from an ideal candidate?
If they don't acknowledge Trump is a lousy person, they're assholes.
'They, however, acknowledge that Trump is far from their ideal candidate in part because he’s erratic and in part because he’s not very smooth politically.'
Voting for candidates who are not ideal is standard in a democracy. Trump, though? That takes heaps of rationalisation.
You have Biden to compare him to...so no, not really.
Well, compared to Biden, it's even more obvious: Trump's a rapey clown show in a burning dumpster full of money. That's what 'reasonable' Trump voters are voting for. It's a complete self-contradiction.
Biden raped Tara Reade, so there’s that.
Biden has managed to shit the economy up, attempt to start World War III, ignored SCOTUS rulings, and has decided the Constitution is not really a limiting factor for his goals.
And that is ignoring his voluminous dementia-addled ramblings.
Yeah, yeah, the lies and the distortions and the stupid, stupid hysterical assertions - always a good sign that the guy you're supporting is rock solid.
This blog's trans fetish is profound . . . and a hit among this white, male, right-wing blog's target audience.
Yes, many. They became far more mentally stable after transition.
lol stop lying
Yes, several, both friends and relatives (I have a very large extended family), one an active-duty Colonel (O-6) currently stationed at the Headquarters of her military service (a decades-old friend of Mrs. Purple's).
Glad you care. Any other questions I can help you with?
That a nutcake would be commissioned as an O-6 says more about the modern military than about this "woman."
In other words, you've never met a "well adjusted" transgender person because you consider any transgender person to be automatically maladjusted.
"Has anyone ever met a transgender that was socially well adjusted? I haven’t."
So, why did you ask a 'question' if you're entirely unwilling to consider any answer not aligning with your evidence-free preconception?
She's quite well adjusted socially, and a superb officer on track for General—you're probably gonna be really pissed when she pins on that first star. And that fact does indeed say a lot about my modern military (I'm a SMSgt (Ret) USAF), just not what you think it says.
Glad you care. Anything else I can help you with?
And how many have you met?
Assume for sake of argument that your assumption is correct -- being trans is a mental illness. It is a harmless mental illness except for people who choose to take offense at it. If indulging it will make them less unhappy and more likely to be productive citizens, why not?
I once worked for a law firm in which the absolutely brilliant head partner could not function unless he was wearing female clothing. When he went to court he wore it under his suit; when he was in the office he wore a dress. Strange? Yes. But he was one of the best attorneys I've ever worked for, and if wearing women's clothes helped give him mental stability, why not?
"harmless mental illness"
Modern liberalism.
Cutting off your penis or removing your breasts is not harmless.
It's also something that isn't done nearly as often as a lot of people on the right seem to think. And I just saw a study that the regret rate of people who've done it is only 1%, as opposed to 50% of the population that regrets getting married.
Stopping puberty is not harmless either.
What is your position on circumcision, Bob?
Genital mutilation involving defenseless infants, especially when performed in the name of absolute fucking nonsense, seems indefensible.
Do you defend it?
That’s a legitimate point. If, today, for the very first time, someone circumcised an infant, that someone would be on the sex offender registry in no time flat. Circumcision only survives because it’s been around for a long time.
The longstanding-ugliness-and-superstition fans do not share your decency, modernity, or preference for reason.
More cis kids take puberty blockers than trans.
Perhaps, but only to restore puberty to a normal schedule, not to prevent it.
What they've been discovering from the efforts to delay puberty is that you've actually got a limited time window for it to happen, after which you're screwed, you're never going to be normal. Which was something their use for preventing abnormally early puberty (Which is the use in non-'trans' cases.) would never have revealed.
Oh, of course, it's okay for widespread use, but this particular group which we hate and despise, they can't be allowed to have it at all. Here's some entirely spurious medical crap to justify it.
They're already 'not normal.' You can't force them to be 'normal.' You can force them to conform to your personal defintion of normal, but you're harming them irrecoverably.
They're bigots, Nige. Disaffected, mostly worthless, obsolete bigots. Right-wing assholes bitter because they've lost the culture war and must spend the rest of their miserable lives complying with the preferences of better Americans they despise.
You can't reason with bigotry, superstition, or belligerent ignorance. The sole sensible course is to make conservatives' stale, ugly, delusional thinking increasingly irrelevant in modern America.
Do not get why you so freely use the slur of "cis".
Nobody has EVER been asked to be referred to as such yet you do so flippantly.
Why?
Why do you think it's a slur? Nobody ever asks to be called 'bipedal' either but nobody thinks it's a slur if they are.
It is a slur. And if you demand we "respect" others "preferred pronouns", you --- more than literally anybody else --- need to do that first.
No, you decided that since trans people get called slurs routinely, you needed a slur to make yourselves look like the victims. It's like claiming being called 'human' is a slur.
Hey, Bob
Do you consider belief in fairy tales -- superstition among adults who believe nonsense is true -- constitutes mental illness?
If not, why not? I mean . . . it's childish nonsense.
If there is a reasoned argument for adult-onset superstition not constituting mental illness, I would welcome it.
Except it has, indeed, proved to be beneficial for the people with a specific condition. Keep your personal squeamishness out of other peoples' health care.
Nah, it really has not. Europe is backing away from the abyss you champion because it is not an effective practice at all.
Europe's far right extremists have their own hate campaign against trans people. Denying them access to health care is just flat-out cruelty. You guys love it.
Yes, medicine is now "far right extremism". Shame on that.
You don't seem as fond of "THE SCIENCE" when it does not shine brightly on things you believe (only believe, mind you) to be true.
It's the opposite of medicine, actually. It's not science, either. It's Ivermectin-Cures-Covid-level of right-wing pseudo-science.
So can I go around telling people that I'm the Queen of England and that they are awful people if they don't address me that way? If not, what's the difference?
I would argue that the very concept of royalty itself is a form of mass delusion; the only reason anyone is queen of England is because a majority of the population pretends that there is any such thing. Take a woman of modest abilities, stick a crown on her head, and she's now a goddess. And, as Marie Antoinette could tell you, the concept of royalty ceases to exist just as soon as people no longer play the game.
That aside, the late Queen Elizabeth once encountered a woman at a greet the public event who claimed to be the real queen of England. At one time that might have gotten her beheaded for treason, but HM simply smiled at her and continued on her way. It's not necessary to disabuse every lunatic of whatever craziness they happen to believe.
"Has anyone ever met a transgender that was socially well adjusted? I haven’t."
Balisane, how do you claim to know who among your acquaintances is or is not transgender?
Maybe Jesus whispers in his ear?
ahh so you're one of those people who thinks you can't tell.
Can't tell what? Whether someone's not socially well-adjusted? Will grant not always, but in your case, it's pretty obvious.
not guilty : “Balisane, how do you claim to know who among your acquaintances is or is not transgender?”
Balisane : “Ahh so you’re one of those people who thinks you can’t tell.”
Purple Martin : “Can’t tell what? Whether someone’s not socially well-adjusted? ”
Res ipsa loquitur.
You could have met any number of transgender people who are socially well-adjusted, why would you notice?
He wouldn't, because as his original comment disclosed and follow-up comments confirmed, he's not socially well-adjusted enough to let evidence affect his preconceptions.
I can't say what should be done about this on this forum. In any case, it shouldn't need saying.
It is true that showing children compassion while they are going through difficult questions about their identity - rather than using their experiences as fodder in a broader culture war - is likely to attract a lot of criticism from many of the VC's commenters. It is also true that it should go without saying that children deserve that kind of compassion.
Would you characterize the treatment of the child described in the complaint as compassionate?
We know virtually nothing about that treatment, other than the child at some point went by a male name and pronouns at school, and their parent wasn't told.
Reading in between the lines, and seeing that the child's parent ultimately decided to pull their child out of school after they attempted suicide, I would bet the child isn't receiving much in the way of compassionate treatment at home.
We know virtually nothing about that treatment, other than the child at some point went by a male name and pronouns at school, and their parent wasn’t told.
We don't even know that. "went by" typically connotes that that was the name by which the person in question wished to be called. We are told :
At some point, employees at the child's school started using a male name and male pronouns to refer to the child, apparently believing that doing so would help with the child's mental health.
which leaves it unclear as to whether this male name (plus pronouns) was the idea of the employees, or of the child.
Sure, Lee. The employees decided to use a male name/pronouns to refer to the child, completely on their own. That's how it works in real life.
The court's equivocal description of the events is likely just the result of the procedural posture. The kid probably wanted to experiment with social transitioning, and the school's staff decided to cooperate.
Some people struggle to recognize or understand normal social cues, interactions, and norms.
That, coupled with a few other factors, could lead to someone actually believing (or perhaps just asserting) that school employees might have independently decided to use a different name or pronoun with respect to a student, just . . . because.
Carry on, clingers.
Employee 1: "Hm, Mary seems to be having trouble concentrating in Algebra. Maybe we should start calling her 'Matt'?"
Employee 2: "Matt doesn't seem to respond to that name and only screws up his face when we insist."
Employee 1: "Tell him it's for his own good."
Employee 2: "He says that he's suicidal because his mother is emotionally abusive and doesn't let him make new friends at school."
Employee 1: "We can only control his gender identity."
Employee 2: "Agreed."
We did actually have a case on here a little while back where the judge made it clear in his (or maybe her) fact summary that the original suggestion that the child might like to go by an opposite sex name came from the teacher.
Not an accurate recall, but who am I to expect anything better from you?
Very good 🙂
You arrive on the scene to scold noscitur for assumin’ and…
….immediately swerve out into the middle lane, pedal to the metal, with a splendid bout of assumin’
Delicious.
You arrive on the scene to scold noscitur for assumin’ and…
You know what’s so stupid about this? Not only is this not what I criticized Noscitur for, but you’re accusing me of engaging in some kind of hypocritical pivot when my first comment to him also made some reasonable inferences from the OP.
I mean, Christ. I am always reluctant to accuse people of failing to comprehend what they read. But sometimes y’all make it too obvious that y’all are duuuummmmbb.
Apologies if I’m just irretrievably dense, but can you explain how you feel the first thing, in your view, is evidence of the second?
As I said in the bit that you chose not to excerpt, I am "reading in between the lines," drawing an inference from circumstantial evidence.
Why was the kid suicidal? Why were they socially transitioning at school? Why did the teachers at the school think it was a bad idea to tell their parent about the social transitioning? Why did the parent feel that removing the kid from the school (and so possibly from any independent support network) was in the kid's best interest? Why did the parent subsequently feel the need to sue, based on these preposterous claims?
Is anything about this account consistent with the kid's parent being compassionate at home?
Anyone who is familiar with the kinds of nightmarish accounts shared by LGBT kids with hostile parents would recognize a pattern.
And you can miss me with your feigned judiciousness. You recognize the same pattern that I do; you would just characterize the parent differently: Caring for her child, not buying into trans ideology, just trying to get her child back on track - "tough love," not indulgence, as "compassion." But you can't prove that, either, so you're pretending to object to my drawing unmerited inferences.
Know who was ZERO power to keep a secret from a parent?
A fucking teacher. The dumbest majors on any college campus are education majors.
The child was not the teacher's child. Keeping a secret from the parent is shit groomers pull.
You know who's keeping the secret? The kid. Why are they keeping it secret? Always a good question.
You are aware, in this case (where the pedo groomer --- sorry, "teacher" claims the child confided in them) it requires TWO parties to keep a secret, right?
Now look who likes slinging slurs about. The only reason to keep it a secret is at the child's request.
Seems correct, as far as it goes. Not all bad decisions can be remedied in federal court.
The General Assembly should remedy this kind of behavior by the school.
You claim to be quite concerned about adults' treatment of minors, Bob from Ohio.
It seems odd that you haven't had anything to say about this . . . until one considers the bigoted hypocrite angle.
Bit of a Catch 22 though. To stop the school from continuing to harm your child - as you see it - you get it out of harm's way by removing it from the tentacles of those doing the harm - as you see it.
Thereby eliminating your standing to challenge the purveyors of the harm.
To keep your standing, you have to allow your child to continue to be exposed to the harm.
This seems to be just a case of bad lawyering.
There appears to be at least one parent whose child actually had an experience of the sort the parents are complaining about. If, instead of trying to overgeneralize and loading their complaint with “ifs,” they had just focused on this case, they could have gotten past the standing hurdle pretty straightforwardly.
Whether they have a merits case is another question. But the standing issue seems straightforward if they simply modify and refile their complaint. They are essentially alleging religious discrimination and parental rights claims. These claims might fail. But they aren’t so obviously frivolous as to negate standing.
To be clear, the court didn’t dismiss the claims for damages based on the past treatment of that child (and indeed, the school district didn’t ask it to). See the antepenultimate paragraph from Prof. Volokh’s excerpt.
"D.S. asserts three claims for damages arising out of the way the District handled her child's mental health issues. In two of those claims, D.S. alleges that Defendants violated D.S.'s constitutional rights to familial integrity and freedom of conscience; D.S. also asserts intentional infliction of emotional distress. Defendants do not seek to dismiss those claims and, therefore, they will proceed."
NS identified the relevant portion, but here it is.
Anyway, the decision is correct. The party with standing gets to proceed on those issues, and the remainder do not proceed (either because of lack of standing due to lack of injury-in-fact, or for the one who has standing re: damages, lack of standing for prospective relief).
"assigned female at birth"
The rot is spreading to elderly GOP judges.
No human assigns a child's sex at birth. It is merely observed. Like weight and height.
You're awfully touchy over a very slight nuance in the choice of a verb, Bobbie.
It’s not unusual to point out lies. “Assign” is a lie. It implies that doctors deploy discretion when they identify the sex of a baby. They don’t – they use their biological expertisee objectively to identify the sex.
Very occasionally they get it wrong, because the indicia of sex may be less well marked than usual. But there’s no discretion being used. It’s a properly objective scientific conclusion from the observed facts.
“Assign” is woke weasel-wording [ie deliberately inserted false "nuance"] to align with the nonsense that sex is socially constructed. Which it isn’t. Ask any beetle.
“Assign” carried none of this meaning before your lot decided to virtue-signal over the terminology.
The increasing visibility of transgenderism meant that people needed a way to refer to the process by which their original gender was selected. Any number of neutral terms could have been used. “Identified male at birth”; “observed male at birth”; “born male”; and so on. Every one of those formulations would be just as vulnerable to your totally made-up criticism, had they been chosen.
It just so happens that it’s been customary to say “assigned” instead of any other verb. So that’s the one you latch onto and read into, like some kind of moronic seventh grader.
Its not "nuance", its a deliberate lie chosen to imply that sex can be changed, another lie.
As I said to Lee, in the comment you've chosen to respond to - the same critique can be made no matter what verb is chosen. They do not inherently imply anything about the mutability of sex.
What "implies" the mutability of gender identity is the distinction of sex at birth from the gender identity one might choose later in life. We didn't, in other words, need a way to refer to a person as being "born" one sex or the other, until we started to recognize that there might be a difference between that sex and how they might present otherwise. Otherwise they'd just be a "man" or "woman" or "male" or "female," regardless of when in time we're referring to.
So - in fact, you're just as susceptible to the brain rot you think the judge is. You've bought into the actually relevant distinction. You're just quibbling over the verb because you're an idiot.
"the gender identity one might choose later in life."
You really don't understand your religion at all, do you?
I'm sure you can explain it to me, Twip.
What drivel.
People ask pregnant women "boy or girl?" first thing after "Congratulations". Before ultrasounds, it was an vitally important "observation" to people.
Sex and gender are the same thing in any event.
Before ultrasounds, it was an vitally important “observation” to people.
Why do you think that was, Bobbie?
Just set your hair on fire it'll be quicker than trying to work up a fake rage strong enough to ignite it.
Huh? Gender is not selected. Sex is observed, usually at around 12 weeks on ultrasound, and continuously throughout a person’s life. Why do you people hate facts?
This type of ritualistic behavior should be a clear indication that you're in a cult.
Gender is not selected.
“Gender” is not synonymous with “sex.”
Sex is observed, usually at around 12 weeks on ultrasound,…
To be more precise, “biological sex,” sure.
…and continuously throughout a person’s life.
Twip, let’s not pretend that anyone has observed your sex willingly since your last adolescent physical.
But – speaking of facts – it is true that most people’s gender identity is perceived by others continuously, as a natural part of life in human society. We see a person over there, we recognize them as a “man” or “woman,” or a “boy” or “girl,” or perhaps we have some difficulty making that out (not uncommon in NYC) and we settle on “androgynous” or “nonbinary” or something of that nature.
You’ll recognize none of that requires consulting a 12-week ultrasound, a genotype profile, or the current state of their genitals. We observe their gender from secondary gender characteristics, such as their facial structure, their hairstyle, their manner of dress, and other features that are either not biologically determined at all or are not necessarily tied to any underlying biological sex (e.g., biological females can have bodies that are “masculine” in appearance).
Nor is their gender presentation in any meaningful sense really about their underlying biological sex. If I am introduced to an “Alice” who looks and presents in every way as a woman, it would be socially bizarre to refuse to refer to her as “Alice” if I were to learn, sometime later, that she has a dick. What would I say? Throw a tantrum and insist on learning her “real” name? In what sense do my interactions with her in any way turn on whether she has a dick or not?
People try to draw this link all the time, in order to justify their anti-trans attitudes. Gender identity implies biological sex. But this is false too of the cisgendered people I deal with. As I write this pedantic comment to you, Twip, I can assure you that I am not thinking about your genitals, and their current state of turgidity is not relevant to anything I have to say to you or about you. I assume you are a dude because the juvenile pun you’ve chosen as a moniker is very typically “male.” But an immature sense of humor isn’t biologically-driven either, is it? No, it’s just something our culture has learned to treat as acceptable, from “men,” because “men” by and large engage in stupid jokes about dicks. (And I am no different.)
But those are the “facts.” Sex is biological, and immutable. Gender is socially-constructed, so gender identity is subject to change, at least within the social parameters we set for its mutability.
It’s not actually hard to see this, or to be precise about the phenomenon. Strangely, you deny this distinction and accuse me of “hating facts.” But it is you who deny facts. Nothing about what I’ve said about sex and gender compels any particular conclusion about trans kids or trans adults in sport, among other things. But it is essential for your ideology to refuse to acknowledge the basic point I’m making. Because otherwise your pre-ordained conclusions won’t result.
“Sex is biological, and immutable”
Excellent, we are at one.
So what was “To be more precise, “biological sex,” about.” ?
You have another kind ? Non biological sex ?
“Gender is socially-constructed, so gender identity is subject to change, at least within the social parameters we set for its mutability.”
Thanks, we can now identify the particular congregation that you belong to. But we heathen are also exposed to the teachings of other congregations. One teaches that “gender” is wholly subjective and refers to whatever the subject feels that it refers to – and is thus irrefutable in any subject’s case, by society, by science, by anything, by definition. Another teaches that gender definitely has a biological component, pointing to what it considers evidence of neurophysiological concordances between the gender as identified by trans folk and the sex that is opposite to their own actual sex. Both of these congregations are obviously heretical to your own.
However, let us not quibble about heretics. It is true that gender roles in human society are, in part, socially constructed. That is to say, a human can look to the behavior of other people for cues to copy when presenting themselves as a male or female. (Or perhaps as something else, though that is usually going to involve departing from established cues.) However the fact that gender roles are linked to social and cultural cues does not mean that they do not involve a significant biological component.
That all human societies have a greater role for women than men in childrearing derives from the fact that until a less than a century ago, women had little choice but to spend the next quarter century after their fifteenth birthday either celibate, or alternating between pregnancy and looking after toddlers. Or both. That’s biological. As is the fact that although the male human role in childrearing is smaller than the female role, it is actually rather large by comparison with other primates.
This is because of our large brains, which force an uncomfortable trade off between female pelvic capacity and the baby’s head size at birth. That means that human children are born very immature, making their after birth care extremely expensive in terms of time and effort. Generally making them too expensive for a single woman to bear. Hence all the cultural taboos against women having sex without a “commitment” from the man – and the extraordinary business (for primates) of males actually making commitments !
All this is biological but it has a yuuuge effect on evolved human behavior. Which manifests itself in some of the rather unusual (but common to all human groups) aspects of human society, as compared with other primates. So we have to recognize that although some parts of human culture are parochial and changeable, some parts have deep biological roots. This btw is why in all species other than humans, the homologue to “gender role” is called “sex role” – because it is understood that the differing roles of males and females is substantially carved by reality rather than whim – it’s not a blank slate for culture to play with freely.
Now then :
“it is true that most people’s gender identity is perceived by others continuously, as a natural part of life in human society.”
Yes but no. Obviously we humans are interested in the sex of other people, because that determines whether they represent mating opportunities, or rivals for mating opportunities. Again, you don’t need to get much more than five minutes into any David Attenborough program to appreciate that this is ubiquitous across animal species.
On the whole, for various cultural and practical reasons, we generally wear more clothes than our ancestors did 10,000 years ago, and we use them not merely to advertise our sex, but also our class, our age, our hygiene, our job, our wealth and so on. So – particularly if our biological inheritance of secondary sexual characteristics is somewhat androgynous – we can use clothes and hairstyle and indeed other cues, such as speech and behavior, to try to present ourselves, if we wish, as if we were the sex that we are not. And where, within reason, is the harm in that ?
But the obvious error in your formulation is that most of us are still trying to clock other people’s SEX. Because we know that some people try to present themselves as the other sex (ie the one they’re not) we may also be trying to work out their “gender” – in the sense of reading what they are trying to present themselves as. Thus if I see a somewhat sexually ambiguous person, I might conclude – that’s a dude (sex) presenting himself as a gal (gender or possibly just cross-dressing.) But that doesn’t mean that I’m constantly trying to identify what “gender’ other people are presenting themselves as. I’m identifying their sex, and only in cases of ambiguity (to me) will I start bothering with whether they’re deliberately trying to present themselves as the opposite to their sex.
So when we are inspecting each other, we do not always read the cues correctly. Thus when I see a dude who seems to me to be presenting himself as a gal, I might just be mistaking a rather masculine looking gal who’s happily a gal. Who would be mightily offended if I revealed that I had mistaken her for a “trans woman.” The transmission of “presentation” is not the same game as the identification by the perceiver.
Nor is their gender presentation in any meaningful sense really about their underlying biological sex.
This is obviously untrue. For starters, 99% - or whatever – of the population is happily presenting themselves as the sex they are, in most cases without even trying. The “gender presentation” is no different from the “greediness presentation” or “idleness presentation” – what is presented is what is, without adjustment.
And for that minority that goes to considerable trouble to present a gender that does not correspond to their sex, again the presentation is about sex. It is the fat girl winching herself into a corset. It is a manifestation of the desire to be taken for something other than what you are. A desire which is hardly unique to those unhappy with their sex.
Anyway, it’s all a fascinating subject, but it’s always good to start with solid agreement on some basic facts.
“Sex is biological, and immutable”
Unless you’re a clown fish, of course.
Sex is biological and immutable. That much is correct. All that stuff about gender is just opinion.
And the only people whose opinions should matter are any given trans person and their health care professionals.
Says the guy who values silly superstition over opinion.
Do you believe you would have been gullible enough to fall for that nonsense if your substandard parents hadn't subjected you to childhood indoctrination?
I am not a mental health expert, but I wonder to what extent pecker checkers' fixation upon the genitalia of children not their own indicates severe mental illness.
“Identified male at birth”; “observed male at birth”; “born male”; and so on. Every one of those formulations would be just as vulnerable to your totally made-up criticism, had they been chosen.
Nonsense. Neither identified not observed would be open to criticism, since they both describe the actual process - observation of the indicia of sex by a medical professional, and the objective expert identification of the sex therefrom. Neither word connotes, as "assign" does, discretionary classification.
"Born male" is somewhat weirder since it suggests a temporal aspect to the sex itself (rather than to the time of identification.) Since humans are not clown fish, and since scientists have not yet worked out how to achieve actual sex changes in humans, there is no temporal aspect to human sex (or the sex of most animals.)
We're stuck with our sex lifelong. "Born male" hints otherwise. But as and when the scientists do work out how to do actual sex changes in humans, it will become a perfectly reasonable description.
Neither word connotes, as “assign” does, discretionary classification.
This is not correct, but explaining the way in which it is fundamentally wrong would require a philosophical detour where I am sure to lose you, like a child bewildered by the shadowy depths of an unthreatening but still mysterious forest.
Ultimately, I recognize that you're just a toadie making a polemical, partisan point, so here I pat you on the head and will leave you to your colorful blocks.
Not sure it requires a philosophical detour – just a few examples of it being used in a non discretionary sense dating from before it began to be used in the expression “assigned at birth.”
"Observation" and "identification" also require an exercise of what you've described as "discretionary classification." There is a perception, and then an exercise of rational judgment about what is perceived.
To the extent that "assignment" generally involves something besides an exercise of rational judgment about what is perceived, that something is not operative when an obstetrician is making a judgment about a newborn's sex. They are not saying (for instance) - "this baby identifies as a boy and I respect that choice". They are saying, "I see a dick, therefore boy."
Using google analytics to try to prove the point would be asinine. I'm not engaging in that kind of debate with youo.
Thank you.
Changing sex or gender is impossible !
Changing outward looks is possible, but not the internal workings which are by way of hormonal consistency. Such consistency may be altered some, but can never be fully changed to be another.
It's also not your problem or concern in any meaningful sense.
'Neither identified not observed would be open to criticism,'
The criticism is irrational and dumb; that sort of thing can adapt to any language they use.
It definitely has not been customary to use "assigned at birth".
Why would you even say that? What do you think "customary" means?
What do you think “customary” means?
Words that Simon uses.
I expect you'll be able to demonstrate how one "customarily" refers to one's sex at birth, in a discussion that acknowledges that someone no longer lives or presents as that sex.
I'll wait, White Pride.
"I expect you’ll be able to demonstrate how one “customarily” refers to one’s sex at birth, in a discussion that acknowledges that someone no longer lives or presents as that sex. "
I think I'd better start from the end of the sentence, as I think I can proceed more logically from there than from the front.
"lives or presents as that sex" - I'm assuming this is a reference to "gender presentation" but then I'm struggling to square it with :
Nor is their gender presentation in any meaningful sense really about their underlying biological sex. If I am introduced to an “Alice” who looks and presents in every way as a woman, it would be socially bizarre to refuse to refer to her as “Alice” if I were to learn, sometime later, that she has a dick. What would I say? Throw a tantrum and insist on learning her “real” name?
If the gender presentation isn't about "Alice's" underlying sex, then what is the difficulty in referring to "her" sex as male ? At birth, before birth, at death and at all times in between ?
So, with all due respect to ManyFsPride who may have his/her/whatev's own answer, what's difficult about "customarily" referring to Alice's sex at birth as having been (correctly) identified as male ?
Cos that's what actually happened at that time. As happens to all babies. Their sex is identified at (or before) birth, from their physical attributes.
If "Alice" wishes to present herself, and indeed, live as best "she" can, as if "she" were female, then "she" can do so. And if "she" turns out to be friendly and cheerful, and not a jerk, most people will humor her preference. Which obviously doesn't mean that they accept that she is actually a woman or actually female - and sure they may accidentally screw up "her" pronouns from time to time.
But if she turns out to be a jerk, who screams at people who don't incant their belief in her womanhood, or indeed is a jerk quite regardless of her transiness, then most people will call "her" what they call any jerk. Which won't be "Alice" or "she."
And should "she" turn up on a discussion forum to make the case (politely) that she is a "woman", then some (polite) fellow chatboardettes may disagree. Politely. Which is entirely reasonable IMHO.
In what sense do my interactions with her in any way turn on whether she has a dick or not?
In the sense that there are circumstances in which "her" possession of a dick or not, is relevant to your interactions. For example if you are thinking of dating "her. "Or introducing "her" to a friend as a possible date. Whether you recommend "her" to the local sports team as a "big strong athletic girl" you've recently met. Or if you're a police officer looking for a suspect in a rape-by-penis. The absence of a dick would allow you instantly to exclude "her" from your suspect list, even if there were lots of other factors leading you to suspect "she" might be the perp. If you were a doctor and "she" came complaining of period pain. The presence of a dick might suggest to you that "her" self diagnosis might be astray. In short - in any circumstance in which "her" sex was relevant.
That's right, "assigned" is a trans propaganda term.
Why does the term SOB come to mind every time this bigot's name shows up?
It's a trans term of art. Only to facists seeking to scaremonger a trans panic could it be 'propaganda.'
"The increasing visibility of transgenderism meant that people needed a way to refer to the process by which their original gender was selected."
But why "at birth"? Most people's gender is observed prior to birth via ultrasound nowadays.
Why not? Who cares? It's the phrase that they adapted to express a concept. Forensically examining it is just unnecessary language policing intended to challenge them and demean them about avery tiny little thing.
"Very occasionally they get it wrong, because the indicia of sex may be less well marked than usual."
Yup. And if they misidentify a girl as a boy, or vice-versa, that doesn't make the kid trans.
I mean, could you imagine?
Person A: You were assigned male at birth...
Person B: Well, actually, I was assigned female at birth, but I'm a man...
Person A: Wow! Can I have your surgeon's number?
I can well imagine the ‘gender critical’ crowd enforcing gender norms to the extent that once assigned a gender, it must be rigidly adhered to. There’s no irony allowed in a dystopia, but dystopias are nothing but irony.
It's the phrase trans people use to distinguish one thing from another - going batshit insane about it, calling it a lie is all just hateful stupid bluster. So much of the outrage is focused on policing language, and the way a specific group uses it to describe their own experiences.
1. If you were paying attention, you will have noted that Bob was wondering why “an elderly GOP judge” was using this, as you correctly point out, trans-activist invented phrase. There’s no reason at all why trans-activists shouldn’t invent whatever phrases they like, pushing whatever “nuances” they feel like pushing (and standing ready for incoming if other people find those “nuances” deceitful or absurd.) Such is life. But why would “an elderly GOP judge” adopt it ? In an actual court judgement ?
2. trans people use to distinguish one thing from another
What thing is being distinguished from what other thing in the phrase “assigned male at birth” ?
I’m guessing you’re thinking one thing is sex and another thing is gender. But, at birth, nobody is assigning, or identifying, or observing anything about gender. Nobody has any clue about what gender the infant may later wish to present, least of all the infant. The docs are simply identifying the sex.
If you are aware – as you seem to be – that sex and gender are not the same thing, why would you – and trans-activists – bother to spend any nuance on what is being done at birth (or as has been pointed out, by ultrasound pre-birth.) Why would trans-activists invent a special phrase for themselves to avoid using the normal phrase – identifying the sex – if there’s nothing gender related going on ?
3. In reality of course the phrase is part of a battery of “nuances” – aka lies – put up by trans-activists to advance the notion that sex is on a spectrum (as opposed to being binary) and thus at birth, the docs are arbitrarily “assigning” you to a box, when there are in fact no boxes. Just one long trough in which we all live, and can swim about a bit.
Thus, at birth just as later on, you can’t really say what a “woman” is, it’s all a very grey line, indeed there’s not really a line at all, more of a spectrum really, and thus …… a guy who thinks he’s a gal, is just as much of a woman as Margot Robbie, but just placed differently on the spectrum.
The “policing language” thing, is no more than calling out your team’s (impressively determined) efforts at preparing the political and cultural battlefield by redefining terms.
If your battlefield preparation was not having some success, we wouldn’t be finding “elderly GOP judges” stumbling into the ditches you have dug.
"You’re awfully touchy over a very slight nuance in the choice of a verb, Bobbie."
Not "nuance." Rape of language maybe, but not nuance.
'Rape of language,' Jesus, you'll be denying trans people access to words next.
"assign" is one of those words going through a woke, er, transformation.
I recall making exactly the point you are making, on a VC thread a few months back. One of the more transinista commenters came up with a usage example from a dictionary - I forget which - which referred to dinosaur bones being "assigned" to a particular species/genus/family, on the basis of dinosaur folk looking at the bones. Which is kinda adjacent to a usage in which "assign" is a synonym of "observe."
But some cruel party pooper (possibly Brett) stopped by to note that that particular usage example had been added only a year or two ago 🙂
It's like homophobia - how ridiculous! I'm not scared of gay people! That argument was tedious too.
These bigots don't like gays, either . . . because they're conservative, deplorable bigots!
And they are plainly no problem that the glorious American culture war is not already solving on a daily basis.
Carry on, clingers . . . until replacement.
.
That's quite the unqualified declaration from a disaffected, bigoted, obsolete, downscale, backwater lawyer . . . a right-wing dumbass do deeply mired in a can't-keep-up rural stretch that Wikipedia and the Journal of Sex Research are unavailable.
Carry on, bigoted clingers.
What does intersex have to with transgenderism or gender identity?
How is your question relevant to Bob's silly assertion or my comment, you racist scum (and Volokh Conspiracy fan favorite)?
You linked to an intersex article.
What the fuck? that must've been a Wang on the AM shift.
Sex is not assigned at birth. It is determined by DNA.
Not in crocodiles
Everything is determined by DNA, including whether a person is trans.
I'll go ahead and humor you and ask for a cite of this.
Why wouldn't it be? Or do you think DNA has no influence on neurological dvelopment?
So, no citation for your claim?
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and not just assuming you pulled it out of your ass.
Turns out my first suspicion was true.
Oh, I'm sorry, are you under the impression that DNA has nothing to do with how humans develop? Or is it just a dark suspicion that maybe the DNA is doing the grooming!
Your belief system is determined by your DNA?
Speaking of observation . . . when is the last time you observed that god you claim exists, Bob from Ohio?
Other than in a childish fairy tale.
Carry on, superstitious and gullible clingers.
When you were caught and had to pay for your crimes.
The science on this stuff is only just developing.
Advocates overestimate the scientific support they have.
Right-wing performative assholes don't bother to invoke science; they make a stand on semantics as though that's the real science. Well, that and saying disagreement with them is religion.
Shows what they think about religion as well, if you think about it.
My observation is that scientists do tend to deploy semantics quite carefully in their line of work. Instead of using vague handwavy terms as do we regular members of the public, when scientists discuss sex they deploy terms like "syngamy", "meiosis", "monoecious" and so on, terms which have a fairly precise meaning.
And the reaon for using all these complcated, unfamiliar, but fairly precise, words is that you can't get very far into the detail using vague handwavy ones.
The rot is spreading to elderly GOP judges.
It may be that the elderly GOP judge was merely reporting "the facts" as per whatever evidence had been presented. I do not know precisely when "assigned at birth" became voguish, but at some point it may have leaked into official forms, so there may be an official form out there, admitted into evidence, stating that child X was "assigned male at birth."
Earlier: "In addition, Plaintiffs allege that school employees may have exposed students to graphic sexual material. Some school employees wore a badge..."
Later: "However, In-District Plaintiffs do not allege whether any of their children's teachers—or anyone at their children's schools—wear the Badge. Nor have In- District Plaintiffs alleged that they have any reason to believe that their children will scan the QR code if they see a Badge."
On a motion to dismiss why is it not sufficient to allege that "Some school employees wore a badge"? And given that the purpose of the badge, as alleged, is to send people to naughty information why shouldn't the court assume it is used as intended?
I sense the trans fetish has pulled into a tie with vile racial slurs atop the list of this blog's signature features.
Anyone else have an observation?
The only remarkable observation I have is how much you cry about stuff. It's impressive how long you've been carrying all that pain and anguish.
Have you thought forgiving those that trespassed against you?
I call a bigot a bigot.
That's not popular among the Volokh Conspirators and their carefully cultivated collection of obsolete bigots.
Speaking of crying . . . what is this white, male, right-wing blog, if not one incessant whine from modern America's disaffected culture war casualties?
I notice how "D.S." managed to be able to proceed pseudonymously for this case. I wonder if an expert on the topic of pseudonymous or anonymous litigation might be able to provide some insight on how that might have been permitted?
Anyone have a theory concerning Prof. Volokh's apparent failure to object to pseudonymity in this particular case?
Clingers gonna cling.
But not at UCLA much longer.
I assume that revealing the identity of D.S. would reveal the identity of her child, who "was struggling with mental health issues" and "attempted suicide". The identity of D.S. (and her child) is presumably known to the district, so it doesn't prejudice them.
"I notice how “D.S.” managed to be able to proceed pseudonymously for this case. I wonder if an expert on the topic of pseudonymous or anonymous litigation might be able to provide some insight on how that might have been permitted?"
I can understand how the parent of an adolescent -- whose life was so severely unhappy that the child attempted suicide -- who thinks that the appropriate response is to withdraw the child from school and to sue school officials who were supportive of the child would face obloquy and ostracism if the parent's identity were known.
Do you think D.S. might have put the child in a nonsense-based school? A bigoted school? A dogma-enforcing, shitty school?
D.S. seems to be short for dumbshit.
Sure, though at that point I would expect an expert on the subject, possibly one also generally in favor of transparency, to say something about how suing public officials in court will always carry a risk of obloquy and ostracism and so can't be a sufficient reason, by itself, to proceed anonymously. If only such an expert were available!
Keeping to the topic, I come across the same question that I keep coming back to on these standing questions. If this person doesn’t have standing, who does? It seems that no one is allowed to sue over this policy ever until serious damage has been done. The declaration that the suit cannot demand that the policy, which allegedly caused such serious consequences, be halted or stopped, seems to have prejudged the case before it's even begun.
In fact, this is a bit of a catch-22. The problem is that the district is hiding secrets from the parents. However, you cannot challenge the policy of hiding secrets unless they hid secrets. However, if they hid any secrets decently, you wouldn't know about it, and you would be unable to show harm. And if you do remove your child from immediate harm, you now have no standing to stop the policy.
This. The courts are guaranteeing that nothing can ever be done about these constitutional violations until the harm has already occurred. That's not how it's supposed to work.
The "unsafe" label seems weird, but I suspect that's an invention of the parents, not the district.
I suspect what actually happened is the district did exactly what you'd expect normal compassionate people to do. When the child confided in them they did their best to support the child, and to not violate that trust by telling the parents against the child's wishes. True, children have fewer rights than adults, but forcing the school employees to betray that trust seems flawed ethically and practically.
That secrecy policy almost killed the child.
Or the fact they had a teacher to confide in meant the suicide attempt was less serious than it could have been (and thus unsuccessful).
If a child tells a teacher something in confidence, something they explicitly ask not to be shared with the parent, do you really think the teacher should then go and tell the parent? You really think that child will continue to confide in the teacher? You really think other children will think its safe to confide in the teacher?
Yes, absolutely. Teachers should not keep secrets from parents. What do you think, that the teacher is going to play amateur psychologist and talk the kid out of the suicide, without notifying the parents of the problem? That would be reckless and dangerous.
Congrats.
Previously the struggling child was only afraid to confide in their parents.
Now they're afraid to confide in their teacher as well!
I assume your object actually is to stop the kids from potentially considering suicide?
(btw, there's zero reason to think the teachers knew the kid was suicidal and did nothing about it, that's entirely your invention)
The dopey teacher may know nothing about the student's problem, and may not realize how much damage he is doing. Soon the teacher is gone, and the parents have to clean up the mess. Ignorance is not an excuse for the teacher to intervene.
Trans kids don't attempt suicide because they're accepted and supported.
I'd like an actual cite for this claim as well.
The suicide rate is incredibly high for trans, no matter what level of treatment they receive.
And the "acceptance and support" treatments are notoriously half-assed.
Have you ever heard trans people talk about what helped and what didn't? That.
As you know, the plural of anecdote is not data.
And the plural of 'how do you know what works for trans people' is 'talk to trans people.'
The parents who filed this lawsuit -- especially D.S. -- aren't going to clean up anything. They're stains on society -- worthless, aggressive right-wing bigots.
The best course available to D.S's child is plain: Leave the day of high school graduation -- that house, that parent, that town -- and never return. Don't even look back. There is a better world than the one you have experienced so far. I hope you find it. Good luck.
Is the child the TEACHER'S child?
No?
Then the teacher's feelings are immaterial.
We have an astonishingly high number of trans shooters per capita in this country. This is a mental problem, clear as day.
Trans shooters? There's been, what, one?
How cute that you are not paying attention.
Denver shooter was trans.
Aberdeen shooter was trans.
Tennessee school shooter was trans.
The recently stopped Baltimore shooter was trans.
IA school shooter.
Prove it. Actual police reports. Off you hop. Last time Brett Bellmore made this claim it turned out that, oops, still only one of them was actually trans.
"Teachers should not keep secrets from parents. What do you think, that the teacher is going to play amateur psychologist and talk the kid out of the suicide, without notifying the parents of the problem? That would be reckless and dangerous."
How far are you willing to adhere to that proposition, Roger S? If a child tells a teacher that her father is raping her, should that teacher alert the parents?
They should alert the police. They should not just keep the secret.
If they just keep the secret, how much of a monster does that make them?
Edit: Let's also discuss the far more likely scenario of the teacher raping the child as opposed to a parent doing so.
'the far more likely scenario'
Aren't the vast majority of child abusers members of the child's family? If not, as you keep demanding for every comment you can't process, cite.
I'd like to see some semblance of evidence of the claim.
10% at least of teachers in the US do so.
Wow, you hate teachers almost as much as you hate trans people, and you really don't give a fuck about what's true and what isn't.
Let me reframe this from the other perspective.
I can think of nothing worse for a child’s mental health than encouraging them to believe that they are fundamentally broken and need invasive medical procedures for the rest of their life. In addition, telling them that their family hates them and that they must isolate themselves from their family and all forms of support.
That is what is actually being said by this “affirmation” to someone who is suffering depression. Speaking from personal experience, the very nature of depression means that the negative framing is the one that will be held.
Pardon me if I express skepticism that it’s in any way positive to mental health. I'm just glad I didn't have such "affirmation" in my childhood.
I can think of nothing worse for a child’s mental health than encouraging them to believe that they are fundamentally broken and need invasive medical procedures for the rest of their life.
You think you have a reliable way to fix this? Folks tried this with homosexuality and ended up causing a huge amount of harm.
In addition, telling them that their family hates them and that they must isolate themselves from their family and all forms of support.
Not even the family's dubious accounting of events was this extreme.
If one's sex is fluid --- why is sexuality concrete?
Can you provide a logical reason?
This isn't necessarily a contradiction. The developmental processes for sex and sexuality may be (indeed are) significantly different, so one can be concrete and the other fluid.
It just so happens that it's the other way round. Sex differentiation happens very early in the development process and because it's essential to reproductive fitness to get it reliably right, it's very conservative - ie errors are exposed to more or less 100% effective deletion. The development of sexuality happens much later - all those neurons and synapses growing and then being weeded, all sorts of influences not all of which are necessarily genetic, and it's much less important than sexual differentiation itself. Gay folk can still have children. Any selection applied to sexuality is nothing like 100% effective.
Consequently while sexual differentiation has to be concrete with all working parts slotted neatly into place, if you are to be reproductively viable, sexuality can be quite loosey-goosey without disastrous results for reproductive fitness, and hence for survival.
They are being polite for the legal interpretation. I'm giving the actual meaning that is being communicated. The meaning of the actions that speak a lot louder than the words. There is a reason that trans individuals have tremendous suicide rates, no matter what the level of intervention. Because what I said is the actual meaning of all the affirmation that they receive.
The solution is to do nothing. I didn't need any secret society supporting me as a kid. When they are adults, they can chose their own fate. Until then, doing nothing is by far the better option.
Yes, the teachers and counselors who do this to children are monsters. They groom kids according to their own weirdo sexual views.
Any comment on circumcision, clingers?
What a bunch of hypocritical, cowardly, superstitious losers.
As I write this, Bill Maher is giving a monologue on HBO against teachers doing these weird sexual things with kids. And he is not a right-winger.
Oh but he's so 'politically incorrect!' Edgy!
'than encouraging them to believe that they are fundamentally broken'
Does this go for other neuro-atypical conditions as well - autism, adhd? Are we going back to ignoring a child in distress on the grounds that you don't want to admit the existence of whatever is wrong with them? If YOU think their condition means they are 'broken' then your kid is sure as shit going to come to believe they are broken, made all the worse by denial of health care and treatment wahetevr speacial arrangements can be put in place for neuro-atypical kids in schools.
If the child is depressed because they are in difficulty or distress and it is being ignored, even actively denied and shut down, continuing to ignore the distress can only worsen the depression. How is this not obvious?
Do teachers keep autism from a child's parents? If so, they should be imprisoned for child abuse.
If a child's autism means they need to get up and move around periodically, but the parents are hostile to the possibility of the child being autistic, does the school have to tell the parents they make accomodations for the child's obvous needs? Is that child abuse?
So, go with an outright absurd hypothetical?
I'll pass.
You made the comparison, I just went with it. You are absurd, though.