The Volokh Conspiracy
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Second Amendment Roundup: A Double Shot of Oral Arguments
“Large-capacity” magazines and semiautomatic rifles are “bearable arms” in common use, no different from the handguns in Heller, but will two en banc courts agree?
Once it decided N.Y. State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n v. Bruen (2022), the Supreme Court acted on several Second Amendment cases it had been holding, granting petitions for writs of certiorari, vacating the judgments, and remanding the cases for reconsideration in light of Bruen. One was a challenge to California's ban on magazines holding over ten rounds, and another was Maryland's "assault weapon" ban. With sparks aplenty flying, these cases were argued en banc on March 19 and 20 before the Ninth and Fourth Circuits respectively.
These cases should be decided in favor of a straightforward application of the constitutional test for addressing challenges to "arms ban" laws set forth in District of Columbia v. Heller.
Bruen simply made more explicit the "plain text first, and then historical analogue laws second" methodology adopted by Heller when it declared that the District of Columbia's handgun ban violated the Second Amendment. Applying that methodology, Heller held that arms that are in common use by Americans for lawful purposes cannot be banned.
First, as a matter of plain text, Heller held that the Second Amendment extends, "prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms." And Heller made clear that "arms" includes all "weapons." If the instruments in question are bearable arms, the burden shifts to the government to provide a sufficient number of representative historical analogue laws (not the musings of anti-gun historians) from our early history to demonstrate that the challenged arms ban falls within the country's tradition of firearms regulation. In fact, the American tradition of firearms regulation is really a history of no or very limited prohibition of arms.
Second, Heller looked at two historical traditions that spoke to the arms ban question. At the outset, the Heller Court acknowledged the history of Americans bringing their own privately-owned firearms and ammunition with them to militia musters. These protected weapons were "in common use at the time" for lawful purposes such as self-defense. The Court further found that the "in common use" test was "fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of 'dangerous and unusual weapons.'"
Putting these two historical practices together, the Court held that arms that are "in common use," and therefore not "dangerous and unusual," cannot be banned. In other words, Heller already conducted the historical analysis for arms ban cases, and it concluded that once an arm is found to be "in common use" – and therefore by definition not "dangerous and unusual" – there is no more work to be done. That arm cannot be banned, period.
Because millions and millions of law-abiding Americans possess both the magazines banned by California and the rifles banned by Maryland, those bans are unconstitutional under a straightforward reading of Heller.
Unfortunately, the en banc Fourth and Ninth Circuits appear to be poised to defy Heller and hold that the California and Maryland laws are constitutional.
In Duncan v. Bonta, the Ninth Circuit after the Bruen remand sent the case back down to the Southern District of California, where Judge Roger T. Benitez found that the magazine ban violates the Second Amendment. Instead of allowing an appeal to a three-judge panel, which is the normal process, the Ninth Circuit ordered a hearing en banc before the same judges who had upheld the ban en banc before Bruen.
In Bianchi v. Brown, a Fourth Circuit panel heard arguments in December 2022. Before the panel could rule, a hearing en banc was ordered.
In both circuits, occasionally a panel has invalidated a firearm restriction under the Second Amendment, only to be overturned by the court en banc. In the Ninth Circuit in particular, it seems to be an automatic rule that a favorable Second Amendment panel decision will be overturned en banc. Indeed, Judge Van Dyke criticized his court for its "single-minded focus on ensuring that any panel opinions actually enforcing the Second Amendment are quickly reversed." A skeptic might speculate that the majorities in each court voted to skip the panel stage in order to decide the cases "right" en banc.
Oral argument in Duncan took place on March 19. Michael Mongan's argument for California offered several reasons for sustaining California's magazine ban, but none have merit. Mongan first suggested that the ban was reasonable as it placed no limit on the number of ten-round magazines or the amount of ammunition a person could use. But that is irrelevant under Heller, where the Court rejected the argument that D.C.'s handgun ban could be sustained because individuals in the District could still possess long guns. The question is whether magazines holding over ten rounds are in common use, and there can be no dispute that they are.
Mongan then argued that a firearm with an over-ten-round magazine is not an "arm" because it will function with a ten-round magazine. It is true that it can function, but that is not the test. California's ban has the effect of banning an entire category of semiautomatic firearms: those firearms (both rifles and handguns) capable of firing more than ten rounds without reloading. And California's argument would have no logical stopping point. The same reasoning would lead to the conclusion that firearms could be limited to a single shot.
It was next suggested that numerosity cannot be the test because there are 700,000 registered machine guns in the country, and Heller suggested that machine guns can be banned. But the 700,000 number is inflated. As the Fifth Circuit explained in Hollis v. Lynch, only about 176,000 of those are eligible to be registered to civilians, with the rest being possessed by state and local law enforcement agencies or federally-licensed firearm dealers (FFLs). Regardless, 176,000 is not only below the 200,000 stun guns found to be "in common use" in Justice Alito's concurrence in Caetano v. Massachusetts, it is also a far cry from the tens if not hundreds of millions of magazines over ten rounds owned by Americans.
After Mongan concluded, Erin Murphy argued for the Duncan plaintiffs. She was asked whether "use" for purposes of common use requires the actual firing of a firearm in self-defense. The answer clearly is no, for two reasons. First, Heller equated use and possession in this context, explaining that a weapon may be unprotected if it is "not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes." Second, as the same quote demonstrates, arms are protected if they are commonly possessed for any lawful purpose, not just self-defense.
But aren't "large capacity" magazines in common use because manufacturers push them onto the market? The answer is that no one forces consumers to buy them. They choose them for self-defense because of their capacity, not in spite of it. If marketing dollars made all the difference in popularity, no big-budgeted Hollywood movies would flop spectacularly at the box office. Moreover, no one ever complained about having too much ammunition, especially when they are in a life or death fight with a thug.
Finally, aren't the subject magazines used in horrific crimes? Any firearm is dangerous in the hands of a criminal. They are not dangerous in the hands of law-abiding citizens, whom the Second Amendment protects. The Heller Court invalidated the handgun ban despite Justice Breyer's dissent and an amicus brief highlighting misuse of handguns in crime. Justice Breyer's Bruen dissent likewise expatiated on the use of handguns in crime, including mass shootings.
As Professor Mark W. Smith explains in his article here, Heller's common use test cannot be escaped by pointing to technological developments or new trends in crime. Many of the same arguments were before the Court in Heller, which rejected them. In any event, the language in Bruen about "dramatic technological change" and "unprecedented societal concerns" is part of a description of the methodology that Bruen lays out for lower courts in deciding "other cases" not governed by Heller's "in common use" test or Bruen's principles about licensing systems.
On March 20, the day after the Duncan argument, the challenge to Maryland's "assault weapon" ban in Bianchi v. Brown was argued before the Fourth Circuit en banc. Opening for the appellants, Peter Patterson was immediately bombarded by the phrases "M-16s and the like" and "weapons of war," and the assertion that "the AR-15 is the M-16." Against the averment that a facial attack is improper because "some guns are more dangerous than others," he responded that all of the banned rifles are semiautomatic, just as in Heller the category was all handguns.
Some judges posed extreme hypotheticals. If Congress did not ban machine guns and they got popular, a state couldn't regulate them, right? How about bazookas and nuclear weapons? The questions kept getting more farfetched – it is entirely implausible that bazookas or nuclear weapons will ever be unregulated and possessed by millions of Americans, like the AR-15.
Judge Harvie Wilkinson, who in 2009 called Heller a form of "judicial activism" akin to Roe v. Wade, dominated much of the hearing. He said that he had fired an M16, that its kick was very powerful, and that very little was left of the targets when hit. Judge Wilkinson's statements are inconsistent with reality: the small-caliber 5.56/.223 cartridge used in M-16s and AR-15s is so underpowered that it is a crime in some states to use it for deer hunting (it would quite possibly only injure and not kill the deer). They are supposedly much more dangerous now than the early models. (They still use the same cartridge.) "I'm not familiar with all of the [banned] weapons, but I assume the Maryland legislature was," Judge Wilkinson opined. (Bad assumption.)
More on point, Judge Paul Niemeyer read Bruen's holding that "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms," adding that common use trumps any purported historical analogues. Once an item is identifiable as a bearable arm, the burden shifts to the government to show any limits. "If we don't like Bruen," he continued, "we shouldn't be on the court. We don't have to like it."
Next up was Robert Scott from the Maryland Attorney General's office, who insisted on the familiar refrain that "dangerous and unusual" means "dangerous or unusual." Asked whether he would use an AR-15 if five people were to break into his home, he responded that it "would not be well suited." The AR-15 would be in a safe, and by contrast a handgun would be easy to use.
Counsel's refrain that the AR-15 is not "suitable for self-defense," it was pointed out by one judge, ignored the step one presumption that it is a bearable arm. The state may regulate it only if it is dangerous and unusual. The burden is on the state to show that nearly thirty million such rifles are not in common use. Counsel insisted that "assault weapons" are excluded from protected "arms" in the first step.
In rebuttal, Mr. Patterson analogized how all speech is presumptively protected under the First Amendment at step one, but obscenity and defamation have historically been restricted under step two. Judge Wilkinson interjected again at length, pointing to dramatic leaps in weapon technology over centuries, creating new dangers and new regulations. Neither Heller nor Bruen, he continued, handcuffed states from restricting new lethal weapons. Of course, Judge Wilkinson's questions seemed unconnected to either the fact that Heller already decided the constitutional test for arms ban cases or that Heller, Caetano, and Bruen all make clear that modern arms that did not previously exist are also protected by the Second Amendment.
Counsel responded that common use keeps up with technological development. There is zero history of banning firearms with narrow exceptions like machine guns. As to semiautomatics being more accurate than machine guns, supposedly making them more dangerous, firearms may not be banned on the basis that they are accurate.
But how is common use decided? Is it mere popularity? May a state ban a firearm as dangerous and unusual even if it is in common use? Counsel again pushed back. A firearm in common use cannot be "unusual." As to "dangerous," rifles are used in 350 murders per year, handguns are used in 6500 murders per year, and yet those "dangerousness" figures do not support a handgun ban.
In both the Duncan and Bianchi arguments, one can see a uniform pattern of arguments in support of upholding the respective bans on magazines holding over ten rounds and semiautomatic rifles with certain features. First, what are undeniably "bearable arms" because they are arms that may be borne by a person for offense or defense are somehow not "arms" under the Second Amendment because they are not "suitable" for self-defense and are "weapons of war."
Second, "common use" cannot mean literal common use, and arms may nonetheless be banned because they are "dangerous and unusual." "Common" is apparently not the opposite of "unusual."
Third, commonly-possessed arms may be banned based on supposed historical analogues as far-fetched as Henry VIII's ban on crossbows, 19th century restrictions on carrying Bowie knives concealed, and laws on the setting of trap guns that fire when the owner is not even present. (No matter that Bruen recognized protection of "weapons 'in common use' today…."). And most of those were regulations on the "use" of these weapons and were not "arm bans" of the sort imposed by California and Maryland.
Before Heller, some courts appealed to the "collective rights" theory to deny Second Amendment rights to any individual human being. After Heller trounced that make-believe theory and held arms in common use to be protected, most courts conceded that the subject magazines and firearms are in common use, but added what Bruen called "one step too many" – watered-down intermediate scrutiny, under which the state always won. Painted into a corner, what's left now to uphold bans on common arms, but to claim that these arms are not arms?
When the Supreme Court says "check-mate," the losing chess players invariably try to invent new rules under which it was not check-mate at all. What Article III of the Constitution calls "inferior courts" will continue playing the game until reined in again by the Supreme Court. As to arms in common use, Heller was Act One, and Bruen was Act Two. Stay tuned for Act Three.
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No mention of muskets? No originalism here, apparently.
Woe be to the flat bed manual printing press makers, for they too have been forgotten!
Quill pens? What else would you restrict freedom of speech to?
Aren't abortions the analog to 18th century practices?
Not a serious response.
Well I do have an 1866 Winchester replica which has a 13 round magazine.
Is that unprotected because its not a musket?
What constitution are you reading where they mention muskets, The Constitution of Bull-shit-Vania?
The word “musket” was not used, but this was:
“ At the outset, the Heller Court acknowledged the history of Americans bringing their own privately-owned firearms and ammunition with them to militia musters. These protected weapons were "in common use at the time" for lawful purposes such as self-defense.”
Reading comprehension is important.
No mention of muskets? No originalism here, apparently.
You sound like a flat-Earther...only dumber.
Maybe because Heller explicitly rejected your notion. Else you might be trying to respond standing on a box in the public square.
A standard magazine is the size that comes with a firearm from the manufacture. A large capacity magazine is one that holds more rounds than some arbitrary number.
Is that before or after a state has (constitutionally?) mandated they be sold only with magazines of a certain capacity?
It's not that simple. A good number of AR pattern firearms come with standard 30 round magazines in most states but special 10 round reduced capacity magazines for sale in states that require such restrictions, such as California and Maryland. Likewise, some pistols are designed to hold 12, 15 or 17 rounds, but limited capacity magazines that only hold 10 round are included only when sold in states that require such restrictions.
My handgun was designed in 1926, came with 13 round mag only, Designed for military use as an officer's or enlistd manl's sidearm. Later, some agencies asked for a fifteen round mag, which was developed and supplied. The Argentine militaryaskef ror 17 round, same result. When I got mine it came with the 13's. I later fund a coule of 15's, never have found a 17 for sale, but seen a couple "nfs". (he wanted to kep them....)
There never was a ten round made for this gun.
Mine is a late enough production series it has a mag iterlock,and will not fire unless there is a magazine in the well. In other words, without a 13 round mag it is not a gun because it cannot be fired.
Wish I could have stood up in front of these silly clowns in black nighties and 'splained this to em. WHY are such clowns still on the bench?
A nit:
In determining ‘common use’, wouldn’t it be more appropriate to look at the number of citizens possessing a particular weapon (or a +10 magazine) rather than the number of those weapons?
And that of course would require registration. Oh what a clever ruse!
No it wouldn’t. The number of magazines is estimated without registration, one can - and does - estimate the number of gun owners without registration.
Reality and minimal actions are not how politicians decide to do things. They will use anything they can for an excuse.
As in the census. The original excuse, apportioning districts, could also be done with surveys, and the wide disparity in sizes show exactitude was never necessary. Counting people is the only requirement, yet they also want to know stuff which is none of their business, such as how many toilets in the house.
Politicians could care less, but they don't.
We are talking the difference between at least a hundred million semiautomatic firearms whose standard sized magazines exceed 10 rounds, and at least a billion magazines taking over 10 rounds. So, not really a significant difference - both are in common usage.
Neither the number of guns or the number of magazines is determinative of whether something in common usage. It’s not how many of something exist, it’s the number of people. One person owning 20 magazines is not the same thing as 10 people owning 2 magazines each or 20 people owning one magazine each.
What were you planning to use as the divisor? Common use among gun owners, or common use among pacifists?
English (2021 National Firearms Survey) estimated that there were about 80 million gun owners and that 48% of them had owned magazines holding over 10 rounds.
The assumption would have be all adults owning at least one of each type of firearm. There is no way to determine the actual number since guns are not tracked in most states and the cumulative sales of guns since 1900 is a huge number.
English (2021 National Firearms Survey) estimated that there were about 80 million gun owners and that 48% of them had owned magazines holding over 10 rounds.
Banning this gun or that magazine won't fix our problem; it's way beyond that now. The problem isn't the law any more; it's the guns. Too many guns in the hands of too many idiots, loop-a-dupes, and loonies. And they won't protect their owners from the Federal government, which will soon be able (if they're not already able, and they may well already be) to field drones (including very small drones) which can't be stopped by gunfire. Your personally-owned guns will be useless and you'll end up like David Koresh.
Gather them up and melt them down, or, dump them into the deepest part of the sea. Or even better, send them to Ukraine.
You've forgotten the necessary precursor steps in your road to dictatorship: the 2nd amendment and all the gun owners who won't cooperate.
Almost all gun crimes are committed by criminals on criminals. That this scares you says more about your proclivities and your ignorance than any real danger.
There's far more harm committed every day by wokies who think bearded males should be on teenage girls' sports teams or in women's prisons, and greedy rich kids who think their student loans should be paid by the poorest taxpayers.
Not a serious response.
Take a deep breath and see what other advanced countries do.
The genie is out of the bottle. You can’t put it back in. 400 plus million firearms in this country, Who is going to get them out of the hands of the citizenry? You? You probably wouldn’t survive the first day. You aren’t going to get many local LEOs to help, and any federal LEOS would be violating their oath of office to support the Constitution, until and unless the 2nd Amdt were repealed. Start there.
And 3D printers are getting better and better. Pretty soon it won't matter what scares hoplophobes.
They can't or won't enforce the anti-gun and anti-crime laws already on the books. More anti-gun laws is just more laws to not enforce.
And then there's the reality that the rich and powerful will always have armed security, so all they are trying to do is keep the poor from self-protection. More and more poor people are noticing, and getting gun training and buying guns.
It's all fear of individualism.
Not a serious response; take a deep breath and read the Constitution, read the facts about crime and who commits it on who, read the facts about Europe’s much higher violent crime rate, read the facts about the UK not counting a murder until they’ve got a conviction.
Then get back to me about who’s being serious.
I'm sure certain places in Europe are more violent than certain places in the USA, but you're probably deluding yourself if you think that Europe, overall, is a more violent place than the USA.
I live in Europe, and while on some level I miss my US guns (which include everything from .22 revolvers to semiautomatic rifles), I certainly don't need them here. In fact, one good test for a "shithole country" could be: "Do I need a gun to feel safe?"
You do the math.
Violent Crime Rates by Country 2024
So, you can see, the US, with a homicide rate of 4.96 per thousand, is way, way down the list. But admittedly none of the higher countries are in Europe.
The thing is, like Europe to some extent, crime is very heterogeneous in America. We're basically a very safe country with isolated war zones inside our major cities... The murder rate varies locally by literally several orders of magnitude.
Like China and Ear-ron?? (although limiting your Mother to one child would have been nice) No thanks Judge Bryer
No, it actually IS a serious answer: You can't round up and melt the guns because of... the guns. That's kind of the POINT of the guns: To limit what the government can get away with doing.
To collect and melt down the guns, the government would first have to conquer its own territory, in what would amount to an all out war. Have you really thought that through?
You mean like the UK which suppresses all speech the government disagrees with and issues prison sentences?
Or, how about locking up little old ladies who hit muggers with their purses? Forcing all citizens to accept being attacked and any retaliation is a crime, even if the criminal uses lethal force. Is that “advanced”?
Go back to your hut, peasant!
The problem is that, as a society, we don’t really want to punish people who commit serious, bloody, crimes. We really want to crack down on people who violate malum prohibitum regulatory offenses, but make all kinds of excuse for murderers and mass murderers. The Parkland, Florida school shooter was spared the death penalty because of his allegedly difficult childhood. Florida actually has a death penalty. Illinois, in practice does not, and the Highland Park shooter is certain not to get the death penalty. Both of these shooters are relatively young, and will be living rent-free for decades to come on the tax-payers’ dime.
Why have laws against murder if there is no stomach for actually punishing individuals found guilty of committing it? Gun laws appeal to the mindset of members of the administrative State: gun laws won’t prevent murder, but they will disarm the public thereby making bureaucrats feel safer.
You can melt my guns (if any) when I can melt your computer, and anything but quill pens and parchment that you use to communicate.
You say “It’s way beyond that now.”
Quoting Andrew McKevitt’s “Gun Country”
“There is simply no practical way to reduce the nationwide private firearms arsenal to levels that could make a significant impact on annual gun violence deaths.”
"The US is simply too far gone for that solution."
I wonder why the Ukrainians need our guns? Is it the idea that a tyrannical government is trying to take away their freedom? I wonder if that could happen somewhere else? In fact, I think it could. Seems having guns might help secure our freedom from tyranny without even having to point them at the enemy. People like you, who'd have us disarm, for example. The idea that many US citizens have guns and ammo sufficient to resist tyranny probably keeps people like you out of our business.
“Finally, aren’t the subject magazines used in horrific crimes? Any firearm is dangerous in the hands of a criminal. They are not dangerous in the hands of law-abiding citizens, whom the Second Amendment protects.”
Couldn’t the same be said of any arm? I would point to the recent report on mass shooters. What kind of society do you you want to live in? This is beyond deranged
There's a list somewhere of countries ranked by per-capita mass shootings. The US is around number 20, and most of the higher ones are developed countries. The only real outlier is Norway because of that one extreme nutcase. And guess what, almost all of them have much more restrictive gun laws.
Not a serious response. Educate yourself before you spout off.
Eh, I was off by a little, 10th or 64th instead of 20th.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country
Norway 1.888
Serbia 0.381
France 0.347
Albania 0.206
Slovakia 0.185
Switzerland 0.142
Finland 0.132
Belgium 0.128
Czech Republic 0.123
United States 0.089
“”Educate yourself“
“Eh, I was off by a little,“
Congrats! You have reached self-parody perfection
Congrats! You have failed to add anything to the discussion, unless the discussion is how useless you are in the discussion, self-parody perfection.
What exactly were you contributing by listing your list?
You also didn’t even attempt to answer my question!
You asked what kind of society I wanted to live in, adding the apparent modifier that current US society is deranged. I showed how there are 9 or 63 more deranged countries. You said my data was meaningless. I said your comment was meaningless. You repeat my data was meaningless. I repeat your comment is meaningless.
Your turn.
What I said was that particular line of reasoning was deranged (“guns don’t kill people- people kill people.” Yeah, ok, sure, but certain guns, and other arms, kill MORE people MORE quickly).
I said nothing about your “data” other than to note, here, that its inclusion is strange and not really responsive to the point I was making.
The self-parody comment I would have thought was self-evident but let me spell it out for you: gun pedantry is especially unconvincing when you can’t even get your stats right the first time! Take a breath and wait 5 mins before blowing up someone for being “uneducated” and then posting erroneous stats to back it up. You were so eager to respond you couldn’t even produce the right numbers! Does that say something about your priors? I report, you decide!
“I showed how there are 9 or 63 more deranged countries.”
Wow- truly a thread winner!
You still haven’t answered: what kind of society do you want to live in?
I’ll provide my own answer. I have lived in Albany, New York, where guns are strictly “controlled”, and in Provo, Utah, where gun laws are a tad more … relaxed.
And I know I’ve felt far safer in Provo, than I did in Albany. I’d much rather live in the society where one can go to a public place like a church, a library, a store, or a college, and ask yourself “I wonder how many people here are carrying guns?” and have a fair bit of confidence that the answer is “probably several”, than I would the society where, if I’m walking down a street, and I see a random group of people, and I ask myself “what is the probability that the group may approach me to beat me up, or even shoot me with an illegal gun?” ard realize the answer is “probably high”.
(Indeed, one of the warnings I got from my roommates in Albany the day I moved in was “don’t go out by yourself after dark, you’ll be in danger of being attacked”. And then there was the time when my wife and I were living in Troy, where someone was stabbed on our street, and had wandered a few blocks before getting medical help. Yep, much safer in the gun totin’ society than the one where criminals are given free reign to terrorize the unarmed peaceable citizens!)
There are some tough (Moose-lum) Neighborhoods in Belgium, France (ask Charlie Hebdo), heck, all of those countries, and if you don't count the US Inner Cities which are predominantly one particular "Demographic" Group we'd be down there with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.
Yes, not many mass shootings in Riyadh, want to live there?
Frank
One point that people keep missing. The shooters in the Charlie Hebdo incident used fully automatic weapons and grenades.
But those were illegal!
Exactly.
In general, firearms discussions (as in abortion and Israel) are well beyond the point at which logic and fact are sufficient determinative factors. Feelz rule.
According to the author, civilians do not have a right to bear long guns or to openly carry handguns outside of the home for the purpose of self-defense. And yet he says so-called "assault rifles" are arms protected by the Second Amendment as are 30 (plus?) round magazines. I couldn't find a 30-round magazine for handguns which doesn't make the handgun extremely difficult, if not impossible, to conceal in one's clothing. Perhaps he doesn't think we have the right to bear "large capacity" magazines outside of the home.
Or perhaps the author carries a very, very large purse.
Takes about a second to change 15 round magazines in most of my 9mm's.
You seem to be conflating two things. Standard sized magazines for most semiautomatic handguns anymore are probably on the line of 15-17 rounds. 30 rounds for AR-15s chambered in 5.56/.223. All of them violate the 10 round magazine limits. Those sizes are comfortable with those firearms. The guns balance better with the size of magazine they were designed for. In my view, 30 round Glock magazines and 50 round AR-15 magazines are stupid. They kinda work, but standard sized magazines work better. I have some 30 round 9 mm Glock magazines, but use them in a PCR (pistol caliber rifle) instead of a handgun.
Of course, a similar argument can be made for full auto adaptations. Besides the giggle factor, full auto G18s are effectively worthless, for anything beyond drive by shootings by gangbangers. Turning a semiautomatic G17 effectively into an automatic G18 using some sort of gimmick just makes sure that almost every round will miss its intended target. The purpose of full auto in a true military assault rifle , like an M16 is primarily to provide covering fire, to allow other elements of an infantry squad to maneuver. If you aren’t engaged in fire and maneuver as part of an infantry squad, it just wastes ammunition, without increasing body count. It’s a waste of ammunition.
To be fair, full auto tracers at dusk is pretty cool to do once. But, yes, the practical applications for full auto are pretty limited in a civilian context; Repelling a ravening mob, maybe?
OTOH, select fire makes a lot more sense, and is legally indistinguishable from full auto.
Judge Wilkinson's statements are inconsistent with reality: the small-caliber 5.56/.223 cartridge used in M-16s and AR-15s is so underpowered that it is a crime in some states to use it for deer hunting (it would quite possibly only injure and not kill the deer).
The M16 is so underpowered that it is now "the longest serving rifle in US military history." And the NATO version of the cartridge is "the standard assault-rifle cartridge in much of the world." Couldn't hurt a fly.
The question is whether magazines holding over ten rounds are in common use, and there can be no dispute that they are.
So, before they were in common use, they could have been banned? That's an interesting approach to constitutional law; "oops; you missed your chance to regulate."
It's really too bad that the drafters of the 2nd amendment weren't clearer that it was about militias; if only they'd written an introductory clause or something... oh wait.
No one is disputing that the M-16 is an effective weapon. But it’s not an especially powerful one. Indeed, the thing that makes it effective (and what made it controversial when it was originally adopted) is precisely the fact that it is much less powerful than other rifles, including the military rifles it replaced.
Once again, the M-15 firing the .223 round is about a third more powerful than a .44 magnum pistol. The rifle offers a private advantage—which is a public-safety disadvantage—that it is far easier to learn to use, and to control the rifle. Veteran law enforcement firearms experts tend to eschew the .44 magnum as too unwieldy, and too uncontrollable, despite its notoriety as the most deadly pistol generally available.
Also, the rifle's ballistic superiority to the pistol is multiplied by its greater magazine capacity, and thus by better ability to sustain rapid fire. That is a force-multiplier for the rifle, because it puts yet-more ballistic energy per-second in the hands of an assailant using the rifle—more-energy-per shot gets multiplied by more shots possible during any interval longer than a few seconds.
Claims to the contrary are gun pedantry—typically from knowledgeable but dishonest shooter-advocates who would themselves choose the AR-15 for mass killing over all other gun types. Advocates of that sort parade moral monstrosity behind pseudonyms. They deserve public contempt.
Once again, then, you only object to AR-15's because their relatively low powered cartridge makes them uniquely dangerous, but have no objection to similar rifles in the more traditional full power cartridges like .308?
Absaroka, once again, what similar rifles firing the .308? You rely on a contradiction in terms. Changing the cartridge changes the rifle. A semi-auto firing the .308 is not as easy to shoot, not as easy to aim, not as easy to learn with, more expensive to use, not as amenable to sustained rapid fire, as the AR-15 shooting the .223.
If the .308 is comparably light-weight, the experience of using the the two is nothing alike. I owned a light-weight rifle chambered for the .308, but not for long. To shoot it was too punishing an experience—compared, for instance, to my comparably powerful .270 Ruger, which became my everyday big game rifle.
Not coincidentally, crazy mass killers who remain free to buy .308 rifles seem to buy the AR-15 .223 instead. I have no doubt you know why.
And that's before we get to comparison of weapons modified for full auto operation. Problems with full auto .308 are what induced the American military—which rightly prioritizes mass killing—to essentially discard the .308 in favor of the .223.
Gun pedantry aside, if it were to turn out that a semi-auto .308 became a weapon of choice for crazy mass killings, then it would be time to get rid of that too.
"...if it were to turn out that a semi-auto .308 became a weapon of choice for crazy mass killings, then it would be time to get rid of that too."
So after the Va Tech massacre, which guns would you ban?
All of them. Except those needed by government to confiscate the others, and of course the ones needed by the civilian security details of the rich and powerful.
Speak for yourself. I have never advocated anything like you said.
“ So after the Va Tech massacre, which guns would you ban?”
Pending…
I would suggest that you have fallen into the same mistake made by leftist judges. Scalia in Heller required that weapons be both extraordinarily dangerous AND uncommon, to be banned. They, and apparently you, appear to be trying to take that AND, and treat it as an OR. You seem to be arguing that commonly owned firearms can be banned if they are uncommonly dangerous. But that cannot work, because if they are commonly used, they cannot be uncommonly dangerous. Hence the power of AND.
A side note here. Some question the banning of machine guns, etc, under the NFA, effectively affirmed by Miller. But while machine guns were widely available at the enactment of the NFA, they were never in common use in this country, because they were only really useful by and against gangsters of that era. A better argument could be made for short barreled rifles and esp shotguns, which had been in much more common use at that time, and are probably only rare today because of the NFA.
"what similar rifles firing the .308?"
AR10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-10
The AR-15 is an AR10 scaled down for .223 ammo.
Anyone intimidated by the recoil of a typical AR pattern semi auto should probably take up knitting as a hobby. The reason the 5.56 is so much more popular is that it is considerably less expensive to shoot regularly. It's not rocket science, and it's not the "punishing" nature of firing a 308. A 12 year old kid could comfortably shoot an AR pattern 308 all afternoon.
Ah, I see you haven't fired the AR-10, the AR-15's big brother, which fires the .308 with the same controlability that the AR-15 gives for the .223. (I have fired both, myself, as well as a few guns that had far more of a kick than either AR.)
And as for the AR-15 being the "weapon of choice" for mass murderers -- which isn't even remotely true -- the fact is that more people are murdered per year by hands and feet than are murdered my rifles of all types. By your logic, if the murder rate of AR-15s justify banning the 30 million or so rifles in civilian hands, the murder rate also justifies the amputations of hands and feet as well.
M-16 was also designed with the average South Vietnamese Soldier in mind, M-14 on full auto would put a 120lb ARVN Private in Orbit.
I liked the M-14. Good solid accurate rifle.
That for most people doesn’t do accurate full auto fire very well. Too much muzzle climb. Not an issue in semiautomatic fire, where the rifle excels. The AR-10 was better in this respect, because it put the barrel and buffer in line with the shoulder, effectively eliminating the vertical force component that causes muzzle climb, and the 5.56/.233 M16/AR-15 even enter because of the lowered power cartridge.
Why, you'd almost think the drafters of the Second Amendment expected militiamen to bring their own private arms when called up!
“The M16 is so underpowered that it is now “the longest serving rifle in US military history.” And the NATO version of the cartridge is “the standard assault-rifle cartridge in much of the world.” Couldn’t hurt a fly.”
Military weapons that wound and stop the enemy without killing them are usually more desirable on the battlefield because a dead soldier deprives the enemy of one soldier. A wounded soldier deprives them of two or three. The wounded soldier and those required to treat and assist him.
There is also the logistics issue. It is a lot easier for an individual soldier to carry 210 rounds of 5.56 (a standard load is at least seven 30 round magazines) than the same number of 7.62 which was the previous U.S. military rifle caliber or the 30-06 before it.
The M16 is so underpowered that it is now “the longest serving rifle in US military history.” And the NATO version of the cartridge is “the standard assault-rifle cartridge in much of the world.” Couldn’t hurt a fly.
You'd think that most people would have outgrown the sort of braindead hyperbolic reasoning you're using somewhere around middle school. "Underpowered" is a relative term, and compared to the vast majority of rifle cartridges the .223/5.56mm cartridge is in fact underpowered. That doesn't imply that it's harmless or even ineffective for the rolls in which it is commonly used. I'm guessing most children would have understood that, and yet it eluded you completely.
It’s really too bad that the drafters of the 2nd amendment weren’t clearer that it was about militias; if only they’d written an introductory clause or something… oh wait.
Regurgitating the preferred mantra of illiterate simpletons everywhere doesn't really help your case.
In combat, wounding an enemy is more effective than killing him.
A dead soldier motivates his buddies to come and kill you back.
A wounded soldier ties up a medic/corpsman or two and four to six stretcher bearers.
With regard to machine guns and bazookas coming under “common use” if they had not been banned sooner, I think that they might have, and rightly so. Firearms (and accessories) in common use should remain legal so that the law abiding can acquire and keep weapons comparable to those that might be used by their attackers. If there were reason to expect that a home invader might have a machine gun or a bazooka, I would argue that home-owners should also have legal access.
I personally love to see the gun… enthusiasts… pop up on these threads. Nichols, bratwurst, please make sure to remember your less deranged relatives when you craft your estate plans. God bless and good luck
Estragon, Judge Otero referred to me as a "gun enthusiast" as well. Like you, he was a c*cksucker.
That escalated quickly
Always the homoerotica with this crowd. Maybe you should try talking with someone about that
That's another fine contribution to the self-parody discussion of how useless you are.
I’m getting distinctly boomer vibes from you too so I’ll say what I said above: leave your guns to a saner relative— preferably a woman, if you know one. And bless your heart!
Boomer vibes? Good grief.
I'm getting distinct Aunt Bessie vibes from you. There, a useless comment you can actually comment on.
“Good grief”
Ok, boomer.
Okay, Groomer.
Careful now. I sense that particular insult is past its prime. You don’t want to end up like the Moms for Liberty gals on 60 minutes…
I'm not worried, Groomer. Are you?
About what?
Hey— you do you. Do you work somewhere with an HR person/department? Just for fun try that insult out on a work colleague!
Be sure to report back the results…
Do you know any women?? Please leave your guns to those individuals in your estate plan.
Can you define what a woman is? If so, can you pass that on to Justice Jackson?
LOL
Anyone self-identifying as such will do. Thanks!
So much for Title IX, then. Or, the WNBA.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Why do you hate women?
???
We’re talking about alphabet soup’s estate plan, not some grand theory of gender and politics… or at least, I was.
And it's always fun to see the gun ... detractors ... come in, and with their full ignorance on display, propose laws that would have absolutely no effect on preventing mass shootings (which is easy to determine, by observing that the proposed laws wouldn't have prevented past shootings), but be a hassle for the millions of those who would never commit a mass shooting (which is easy to observe because millions of people already own these guns, and mass shootings -- or murder in general -- with these guns are so rare, that these events are almost literally statistical noise, literally on par with murder by hands and feet).
I do not think it would be that difficult to get any particular class of firearms out of public circulation, so long as it was not done tyrannically, and sufficient time were allowed to do it. About 30 years ought to suffice, with the right incentives. Those could include free replacement of contraband arms types with high-quality substitutes designed to reduce public gun danger while enabling 2A compliant self-defense. It does not take military-capable assault capacity to reasonably protect a private home.
Thirty years is a long time of course, so during that interval there will need to be a rebalancing of public and private interests with regard to all firearms. For whatever cause, there is way too much firearms-related violence in the U.S., and public policy must reckon with all of it. Nor can there be, as so commonly demanded, a dual standard of gun policy enforcement, with one lenient policy for the self-styled presumptively law-abiding, and another harsher policy for alleged criminals. Public gun policy must anticipate and enforce alike against criminal gun use by whoever has a gun.
The nation has lately commenced an era where gun prevalence and gun advocacy have taken on dangerous political implications. Public priorities are out of alignment when a gun advocate ostensibly defends law-abiding private arms use in terms of armed, "individualism," but does so in context of threats of private militia overthrow of government,.
To prevent that slipping the next increment toward armed chaos will require shifting far more of the burden of gun violence toward arms owners, and away from peaceably unarmed citizens. To do that will not be a new or anti-democratic imposition. It will instead be a return to gun governance norms which were customary and widely followed as recently as 60 years ago.
During that former era—with allowances for former racially founded injustice—there was not much advocacy, as there is today, that the perpetrator of a shooting death of an unarmed person be afforded opportunity to escape prosecution. Assertions that a shooter feared for his life were not so likely as now to be taken as basis for innocence, without a trial to prove those assertions as matters of fact. It is time to return to an expectation for criminal trials for all shooters of unarmed victims.
Likewise, public displays of private arms in political context did happen previously, but were generally features of events and incidents regarded as reprehensible and chaotic—the coal mining labor strife in West Virginia during the 1930s and 1950s, for instance.
Advocacy today for armed public defense of unbounded personal liberty goes beyond that former sense of customary constraint. The change is dangerous. Laws are overdue to suppress that danger by balancing 1A protected political liberty against chaotically asserted gun liberty. It should not be a legally protected norm that private-militia wielders of semi-automatic arms can appear en masse to intimidate unarmed citizens while they exercise a right of peaceable political assembly.
There was never anything about the 2A intended to support any notion that private arms purchases ought to influence politics at the expense of civic engagement by peaceable means. Private arms advocates who defy that custom, and attempt public gun wielding to assert political influence should do so at risk of suspension of their personal rights to carry guns in public.
The more insistent assertions for ungoverned public gun liberty become, the more draconian the laws the nation will have to impose on would-be public gun wielders, if they seek to use their guns to achieve political dominance. Guns may indeed provide a private bulwark for the defense of political liberty. They may also become the means to overthrow liberty. Too strong a tendency toward guns implies too strong a tendency toward overthrow.
Your opinion on guns is even stupider than your opinion on Israel. Why don't you give yourself a 45 caliber lobotomy?
I think that you are looking at things backwards. Self defense has been well accepted for hundreds of years in our culture. Maybe thousands. The problem was progressive prosecutors who attempted to deprive law abiding citizenry of that right. For example, the Retreat Doctrine dates from a time when edged weapons predominated in self defense. Then, it made sense to make self defense inapplicable if you could walk an away from a fight. The dynamics are very different when dealing with highly reliable firearms, where the speed of bullets greatly decreases the time it takes for a confrontation to become deadly. Aggressive prosecutors started convicting obviously self defense shooters on the grounds that they had an avenue of retreat open to them, even if in the stress and speed of an armed confrontation they couldn’t see it, while investigators and prosecutors, with months to investigate, could. As a result of this misuse, by prosecutors, most states, by now, have statutorily abrogated the traditional Retreat Doctrine, in whole, or at least in part.
Taking as an example Florida, the state had, traditionally, been a stand your ground state, and then the state supreme court up and declared that
Oceana had always been at war with EastasiaFlorida was, and always had been a duty to retreat state.The state legislature had to enact a stand your ground law in order to put things back they way they'd originally been!
You love your own words a little too much, Steve.
Anyway, so you think it would take thirty years of concerted effort to "get any particular class of firearms out of public circulation"? Sure, but when have there ever been thirty years of one-party dominance in the US? Even at the height of its gun-controlling era, Congress could only pass one significant gun control measure which was riddled with holes--and automatically expired after 10 years.
Ah, but the plan isn't to legally strip Americans of our guns. They know that's a non-starter at this point. Maybe as a mopping up operation, not now.
The actual plan has several components.
1) Make becoming a gun owner in the first place, or remaining one, extremely inconvenient. Laborious training requirements. Licenses you need to frequently renew. Expensive insurance. A crime to own ammo that doesn't fit the guns you've registered.
2) Financially cripple gun manufacturers and sellers, with their own licensing, expensive to comply with regulations, zoning them out of large parts of the country, and Project Choke Point style pseudo-private financial penalties.
3) Make public who owns the guns, so that they can be subjected to nominally private sanctions, like difficulty getting jobs, higher insurance rates, being turned down for loans. One of the approaches to this is gun registration and licensing, another is getting credit card companies to force vendors to identify to them when a transaction involves firearms.
When, ideally, all of this has whittled down the fraction of the population who still own guns, THEN it becomes politically feasible to overturn Heller and sic the police on anybody still owning a gun.
Ridiculous.
One of the lawful purposes you appear to ignore is the militia purpose - including our right to abolish any government that becomes abusive of our Liberties and becomes a domestic enemy.
Criminals and local law enforcement have no effective limits on what they carry. It is nonsensical that our system of ordered Liberty could sanction us law abiding folk as the only ones who are limited, especially by people who no idea of our needs. For example, you assert, absent evidence, that "assault weapons" are not necessary for home defense. We don't have to prove a need. The fact that the right exists is all we need. If our servants carry them as "defensive systems" (they do) so can we. In addition, auto capable bearable systems no doubt WOULD be in common use by law abiding citizens, if they had access to them. The argument that there are suitable alternatives has been rejected numerous times and Scalia's unnecessary ramblings about M16's in a ruling intended to more firmly establish the protected right needs to be adjusted to comport with the rest of Heller.
Sorry, but what you propose won't work. It's already been tried! It's called the Assault Weapons Ban of 1990, and it was intended to get America used to the idea of banning guns -- and it is clear that you don't understand the fallout of that ban.
First of all, the ban galvanized the Gun Rights community -- and what's worse, people who otherwise weren't interested in guns suddenly joined the debate -- and they did so by joining ranks with the Gun Rights community. It's quite possible that, without the ban, neither Heller nor McDonald would have come down the pike the way they did.
Second, the ban didn't do diddily squat in preventing crime -- or even in preventing mass murder. What's worse, the one event that became the template for The Ritual of Mass Murder was committed during this time -- and ever since that event, many mass murderers have been keeping score, and have been trying to out-shoot the Originals. Fun fact: we were actually lucky that the Columbine shooters resorted to using their guns. They only used them because "Plan A" failed -- their bombs didn't go off. Had they done so, hundreds of people would have died. And who knows what shape The Ritual would have taken, had that happened?
Third, as a direct result of this ban, Democrats lost the House. When it came time to renew the ban, despite President Bush stating a willingness to sign it into law, it couldn't get out of Congress. Indeed, it was only "passable" in the first place because of that sunset provision.
Fourth, during the time of the ban, President Clinton made a deal with Smith and Wesson in a sort-of private-public template for working with the gun industry to implement further gun control. Do you know how successful this partnership was? It produced a backlash so bad, that Smith and Wesson was almost destroyed as a company due to the resulting boycott.
Now, people like to say that the National Rifle Association is powerful, and that they are powerful because of their donations to political figures -- but the reality is that their donations are a pittance compared to many other organizations. Do you know where the power of the NRA comes from? It comes from voters. The NRA has 4 million members willing to vote on gun rights, and there are several million more who aren't members of the NRA, because the NRA isn't diligent enough when it comes to protecting our right to keep and bear arms!
So go ahead, tell yourself that America would accept a gradual ban of guns. It's a lie -- but it's cute how you find comfort in it!
This is why the Court has to stop this stupid business of remanding for a decision consistent with, and just go straight to deciding the case itself, and reprimanding the lower court. These lower courts aren't making mistakes, they're deliberately defying the Supreme court. They don't need correction on some obscure point, they need to be smacked down, and HARD.
If the Court doesn't start doing that soon, they're going to find there are too many contrary lower court decisions for them to deal with. They'll face whole circuits full of Reinhart's.
Agreed. The rule of law means nothing if it is not respected by the lower courts.
Incidentally, I'd like to point out two deficiencies of Heller/McDonald/Bruen:
1. The Court spent 68 years failing to take 2nd amendment cases, and these three cases effectively grandfathered in a lot of violations of the 2nd amendment which, by their own reasoning, would be rejected today if you attempted them for the first time.
For instance, the only reason civilian owned machine guns are so few is that the federal government DID effectively ban their ownership, almost half a century ago. If it hadn't, they'd easily cross the commonly possessed threshold.
2: The commonly posessed test is a roadmap for future gun control: If you ban a new development in firearms before it can be widely sold, this test allows it.
It's a recipe for freezing civilian arms technology in its place as technology in general advances. If you'd treated printing presses this way in the 1700's, we'd only be able to own hand set manual printing presses today!
If your test tells you things can be banned today, that would unambiguously have been protected today if your test had been in place yesterday, your test has a fundamental contradiction built into it.
Mr. Halbrook has as usual taken a maximalist interpretation of Bruen. But it is by no means clear that the members of the Court’s current center, Roberts, Kavanaugh, and Barrett, will agree with this maximalist position. We will have to see.
Halbrook isn't taking anything like a maximalist interpretation of Bruen. Though I will agree that the Court is likely to fail to follow its own reasoning in future cases.
The majority on the Court wants to transform the 2nd amendment from the "general population entitled to be armed the same as soldiers" amendment the founders actually gave us, into something less scary. The minority wants to transform it into a complete dead letter.
The problem is that, while you could very easily construct a consistent test for enforcing the 2nd amendment the founders actually gave us, the right to 'every terrible implement of the soldier', and you could very easily do as the minority wants, and not enforce it at all, staking out a consistent judiciable middle ground isn't an easy thing to do. You've got no historical or textual grounding for the majority's half hearted enforcement of the amendment.
Is any PART of a gun an "arm" under the Second Amendment? If the government determined that a particular type of trigger is prone to accidental firing, and required a different trigger that is harder to accidentally fire without affecting the ability to intentionally operate the gun, would that constitute an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms under the Bruen test?
To be clear, that is, indeed, a question. I.e., I don't know the answer to it. But that's my point. I don't know. And Prof. Hallbrook's argument contains a MAJOR ipse dixit when he just assumes that the Bruen test applies to a gun part (a clip or magazine). Maybe it does. But Bruen certainly doesn't SAY that it does.
It's really intellectually dishonest to do stuff like that and to claim things are certain when they are not.
No, I think it's pretty clear that the government can, consistent with the 2nd amendment, engage in normal product safety regulation. Unlike a lot of gun rights advocates, I think they could probably even legitimately get away with banning the use of lead in ammo; It really IS a pollution problem, and their are substitutes.
Which is not to say that gun controllers aren't quite happy to pretend that laws intended to infringe the right are just product safety laws, so you can't just assume that everything that claims to be a safety regulation IS one.
"And Prof. Hallbrook’s argument contains a MAJOR ipse dixit when he just assumes that the Bruen test applies to a gun part (a clip or magazine)."
OK, imagine for a moment that the government issued a regulation, perhaps purporting to be a safety regulation, which limited printers to only holding 5ml of ink per cartridge, and 5 sheets of paper. How do you suppose that would fly under normal 1st amendment jurisprudence? I think it would go down, and it wouldn't even be a difficult call.
Why would magazine limits be any different?
You lose me with speech analogies. Guns aren’t speech.
As I said, I don’t know the answer with respect to parts. (I actually agree with your underlying point that a restriction on a gun part could be a backdoor gun ban.) But it isn’t as simple as “a gun is an arm, therefore any part of a gun is an arm”, which is what OP seems to assume.
Technically, guns aren't printing presses. It's shooting that isn't speech. Guns are printing presses: The instrumentality through which a right is exercised.
But the point remains: You can't regulate exercise of a civil liberty in a manner designed to deliberately inconvenience or limit that exercise. Because it's a civil liberty, limiting it is not a legitimate governmental policy.
You can't say, "Aha, maybe I can't deny you a printing press, but I can drastically and arbitrarily limit the amount of ink or paper it will hold!"
No, you can't, and for the exact same reason you can't limit the number of rounds a gun can hold, because the only purpose is to limit exercise of the liberty.
And that's the common thread of essentially all gun control laws, the thing that makes them gun "control" laws: That the aim is to limit exercise of the right.
It’s shooting that isn’t speech. Guns are printing presses: The instrumentality through which a right is exercised.
On basis of that analogy a power of government to punish defamation is a legitimate power to ban bullets.
Forget foolish 1A analogies. The purported analogies are red herrings; the two amendments are nothing alike.
Notably, the Founders authorized the 1A not only as prescription of means to conduct the public life of the nation, but also as means by which the jointly sovereign People could accomplish overthrow of their own Constitution, and thus replace it with anything else it pleased the People to proclaim.
The jointly sovereign People, under American constitutionalism, undoubtedly possess a sovereign power to accomplish armed overthrow of the Constitution, and replacement of it with whatever else might please them better. But that is a power inherent in sovereignty, not a power authorized by the Constitution itself.
Gun advocates who attempt armed force to overthrow Constitutional government are not thus patriots, they are traitors. That is why the Constitutional definition of treason hinges so specifically on resort to armed force, while forgiving as lesser offenses plots for government overthrow attempted by mere advocacy without violence.
"On basis of that analogy a power of government to punish defamation is a legitimate power to ban bullets."
Your remarks, as usual, are the stuff of epic face palming. The above is a basic category error!
When the government punishes defamation, it punishes a specific and wrongful, speech ACT. Not having a word in your vocabulary! It doesn't say, "The word 'rapist' is frequently used to defame people, therefore we're banning its use."
So, analogously to defamation, the government can punish specific and wrongful USES of firearms. And does, already! Basically anything that would be a crime if you did it with any other tool, or just your bare hands, is also a crime if you use a gun to do it.
If the "militia" part of the Second Amendment is taken in the intent of those who wrote it, the restriction on automatic weapons is BS.
The lawyer clown who mentioned "bazookas" and "nuclear weapons" is just showing how lame his argument is.
By the way, I can legally own a bazooka. I can also own rounds for it. What I can't own is rounds with explosive warheads. The same goes for grenade launchers and cannon. There maybe restrictions on where I can fire them, but, that mostly concerns the range of the weapon.
Correct. The "militia clause" suggests that the primary reason for the Founders' respect for the people's right to keep and bear arms was to ensure that the citizen militia would always have access to appropriate military-grade weapons to function as an effective militia.
The problem was the facts in the Miller case. Sawed off shotguns (regulated by the NFA, along with machine guns) were used by our military in trench warfare during WW I. The Germans objected. We said “tough”. At the time of Miller, they were in federal and state armories around the country. Clearly, a militia weapon. But the two defendants were dead by the time that Miller was heard by the Supreme Court, and there was no way to augment the record to include this reality. So, they could get away with saying that it wasn’t a militia weapon, because there was no evidence in the record before them that it was. Machine guns, like the Thompson submachinegun, were similarly used in WW I, and used into the Vietnam War, by the military, so would have faced a similar problem with the Miller Court.
"He said that he had fired an M16, that its kick was very powerful, and that very little was left of the targets when hit.
The man in this video fires an AR15 (same round as the M16) holding it one handed with the butt of the stock against his nose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3qjpZB6ME&t=1s
Not broken, not bleeding, no bruised.
" . . . and that very little was left of the targets when hit.
What was he shooting, balloons?
Judge Harvie Wilkinson is either an emaciated 5 year-old, a liar...or both.
With regard to machine guns and bazookas coming under "common use" if they had not been banned sooner, I think that they might have, and rightly so. Firearms (and accessories) in common use should remain legal so that the law abiding can acquire and keep weapons comparable to those that might be used by their attackers. If there were reason to expect that a home invader might have a machine gun or a bazooka, I would argue that home-owners should also have legal access.