The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Lies About Sex: Bill Clinton, John Edwards, and NY States' Prosecution of Donald Trump
Donald Trump should get the same pass for lying about sex that former president Bill Clinton got and that former 2004 Democratic Party Vice Presidential nominee John Edwards got
The NY State criminal trial that is about to begin on April 15th is all about whether former President Donald Trump lied in his expense reports to cover up his payment of hush money to pornographic film star Stormy Daniels prior to the 2016 presidential election. NY argues that in doing this Trump violated NY State laws, almost all of which involve misdemeanor offenses. The prosecution implies that Trump's alleged lies and coverup are a violation of federal campaign finance laws, which makes the misdemeanors more serious and justifies the prosecution.
First, it is settled U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) policy not to prosecute such cases, which is one of many possible reasons why the federal government has not brought any charges against Trump about the Stormy Daniels hush money matter. Another reason is that the DOJ may think Donald Trump's expense reports were truthful as Trump claims them to be. Second, when former President Bill Clinton perjured himself and engaged in obstruction of justice by denying under oath that he had had sexual relations with then-White House intern Monica Lewinsky, both in a deposition and before a federal grand jury, the judgment of the U.S. Senate was that Bill Clinton's "lies about sex under oath" did not disqualify him from holding the presidency.
430 law professors signed a letter to the Senate on November 6, 1998 writing that "making false statements about sexual improprieties" under oath before a federal grand jury "is not a sufficient constitutional basis to justify the trial and removal of the President of the United States." Harvard Law Professor Cass Sunstein wrote on October 4, 1998 in The Washington Post that mere lies about sex under oath were not in his view disqualifying behavior in a president of the United States.
Both the law professors' letter and Professor Cass Sunstein's op-ed tried to argue that perjury about a person' private sex life fell in a different category from perjury about the execution of a President's political duties, which would be a disqualifying offense for a President to engage in. It was noted that people often lie about adulterous sex to protect their spouses and to preserve their marriages, and not to retain or to win the presidency.
Of course, this is exactly why Donald Trump allegedly paid Stormy Daniels what is alleged to be hush money because Trump's alleged affaire with Daniels coincided with his wife Melania giving birth to Trump's son Barron. Former President Bill Clinton's perjury under oath before a federal grand jury led to his acquittal by the Senate in his impeachment trial, and, after Clinton left office, the only penalty he paid for his lies under oath about sex to a federal grand jury was disbarment and the entry of a plea bargain. Donald Trump's alleged lies about sex in filing his expense accounts are minor compared to Bill Clinton's lies about sex under oath before a federal grand jury at a time when he had sworn that he would take care that the laws be faithfully executed. As many remember, Clinton's DNA was found on a white stain on Monika Lewinsky's blue dress proving that he had in fact had sexual relations with Lewinsky.
In 2004, the Democratic Party's nominee to be Vice President, John Edwards, paid a woman $1 million in hush money to cover up an alleged adulterous affair leading to the birth of a child born out of wedlock. The U.S. Justice Department prosecuted John Edwards who defended himself arguing that he was trying to protect his wife from learning about his adultery and that lies about sex and hush money to cover them up were not an illegal, unreported campaign donation. The trial resulted in a hung jury, and the U.S. Justice Department declined to re-prosecute John Edwards. The Department adopted a formal position that DOJ would not going forward prosecute as campaign finance violations the payment of hush money. Lies about sex were not fit to prosecute as campaign finance violations. Again, this explains why the federal government has declined to prosecute Donald Trump over his payments of hush money to Stormy Daniels and others.
Edwards' behavior involved much more hush money than Trump had paid, as well as the birth of an illegitimate child. If what John Edwards did was not a felony warranting jail time then what Donald Trump did in allegedly paying hush money to Stormy Daniels does not disqualify him for running for President either.
The disparate treatment of John Edwards, and Donald Trump for paying hush money and lying about having done so suggests NY State prosecutorial misconduct. Even if Trump were to be convicted in the sham proceeding set to begin on April 15th, voters should give him the same pass for lying in order to cover up adultery that was given to Bill Clinton and John Edwards.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
This is a playground argument. It’s the argument kids make to their teachers when they want to evade trouble. You prosecute and enforce based on the law, not based on what others do or don’t get away with.
Lawyers, I’m genuinely curious: does “they weren’t prosecuted for this crime so I shouldn’t be” have any merit as an argument?
Yes, but in very limited circumstances. For instance, if you can show the government only prosecutes black people for certain crimes but not white people, then you can have your case thrown out. It’s rare but possible.
Recently, in Texas, some defendants had successfully argued that their charges for criminal trespass should be thrown out because the government had a policy of only arresting and prosecuting men for illegally crossing the border while women were set free.
This is all to say that this isn’t the type of situation where Trump can successfully argue selective prosecution.
That sums it up. If you want more detail than Area Man provides, the legal term to search for is “selective prosecution.”
Some Jan 6 defendants are starting to use this defense.
Selective prosecution is a legit claim, but an extremely tough row to hoe. Honestly the closest big case in recent memory is gonna be Hunter.
Another hit from Steve. Can you imagine being an incoming 1L?
My first year con law prof dropped the class to run for Senate after about three weeks. What a twerp. He got crushed, needless to say.
I am unaware of anyone not named Yick Wo who has obtained final relief from a criminal charge or conviction based on a claim of selective prosecution.
The Texas cases are still pending final review by the state criminal court of last resort, but as of today they’ve won relief. We’ll see what happens.
The law in NY is that at worst this was misdemeanor yet they are insurrecting federal powers and charging a felony.
Why aren't you upset about NYs illegal behavior?
We understand the (D)ifference. 🙂
This is always a boring and unproductive accusation to make. I get it, but Good Lord…
I'm genuinely coming to think that you really believe this is the difference, rather than the actual question of whether particular laws were broken.
Get some self-respect and stop parroting MAGA bullshit.
Not funny, not clever, not accurate.
Get some self-respect and stop parroting DNC bullshit. C_XY’s comment is funny and accurate. So, 2 out of 3. You’re full of garbage as usual.
We get that you commies see law as a weapon to be used to attack your enemies and not rules for society to live by.
It's a "playground argument" as in an issue of fundamental fairness so simple that even playgrounders can understand? Why yes, it is.
Why don't you want to understand it?
Get paid tens of millions to make unsubstantiated allegations about stuff that happened decades ago and the only bar you have to clear is he’s a big meanie today in someone’s opinion. Lucky the gutless Republicans didn’t go this far to bankrupt Clintoon or any of the other Dem candidates credibly accused of sexual misdeeds when they had the power, but tbf the Dems are far more creative when it comes to gaming the legal system.
There is a lot better argument that using campaign funds to pay hush money for an affair is a violation of campaign laws.than using private funds. Was the only plausible reason Trump had for paying off Stormy Daniels the impact on his campaign? Obviously Not.
Lets look at.A hypothetical here, say a billionaire currently running for office wants to look good for his campaign so he announces 500k to start a scholarship fund for children of deceased firefighters. Is he obligated to use campaign funds for the scholarship because the donations is to benefit his campaign?
No, even if his only motivation is to help his campaign, its not only permissible to uses his own funds, its not permissible to use campaign funds because its not a legitimate campaign expense.
Trump could have paid hush money himself, for the same reason he could finance his own campaign. If other people put up money to make a politician look better to voters, that's pretty clearly a campaign contribution, and might exceed limits on campaign contributions or lead to violating rules about reporting campaign contributions.
John Edwards didn't put up his own money to pay off his mistress but was still aquitted.
And rightfully so, paying off a mistress is not a legitimate campaign expense.
I don't think aquitted means what you think it means
It does when the DoJ concludes it never should have brought the case.
Edwards was acquitted as to one count. The jury couldn't reach a verdict on the remaining five, as to which the court declared a mistrial.
This is what politico said at the time:
"The outcome of the six-week trial was a high-profile blow to the Justice Department’s beleaguered Public Integrity Section and a told-you-so moment for many in the legal community who ridiculed the case from its outset.
After nine days of deliberation, the jury deadlocked on five of the six felony counts the former senator faced. The government had accused him of orchestrating nearly $1 million in payments two wealthy Edwards donors made to hide his pregnant mistress, Rielle Hunter, from the media during a critical phase of his 2008 bid for the White House.
Within hours of the verdict, there were signals that the government would not take another crack at convicting Edwards.
“It’s very unlikely that there will be a retrial,” a federal official who asked not to be named told POLITICO."
https://www.politico.com/story/2012/06/how-the-edwards-prosecution-stumbled-076942
File it as a campaign expense: Get prosecuted
File it as a personal expense: Get prosecuted
What's the legal way to file the expense and not get prosecuted?
Switch your party registration to Democrat.
Edwards was prosecuted, moron.
Well, that escalated to a hostile response immediately. That's not healthy.
Yes, Edwards was a Dem. However, after the hung jury the feds decided not to pursue the case any longer.
Yes, he was--because he pissed off Hillary.
He was acquitted of one count, but there was a hung jury on the other five counts. Be accurate.
Calabresi devotes a lot of space to arguing that Trump didn’t commit an impeachable offense when he paid off Stormy Daniels, which seems like a waste of space given that Trump wasn’t impeached for it.
Calabresi claims that the DOJ adopted a formal policy of not prosecuting the payment of hush money as campaign violations. This may very well be true, but Calabresi doesn’t cite the alleged policy and I can’t find it.
Calabresi asserts that the “disparate treatment of John Edwards, and Donald Trump...suggests NY State prosecutorial misconduct.” Donald Trump allegedly violated New York law while there is no suggestion that John Edwards did so. It is standard practice for prosecutors to prosecute people who they believe are guilty while declining to prosecute people they believe are innocent. This is the first time I’ve heard this practice described as “disparate treatment.”
Calabresi closes by asserting that “voters should give him the same pass for lying in order to cover up adultery that was given to Bill Clinton and John Edwards.” Neither Clinton nor Edwards ran for office after their covering up of adultery was uncovered, so voters never had the chance to give them a pass, and in the case of Edwards, the reason he never ran for office again is pretty clearly a belief that voters wouldn’t give him a pass.
‘member when you were all scared he was gonna pardon himself, so the feds sent all the info down to NY so the state could git ‘im?
Good times, good times.
Question: If it's a Federal offense, why couldn't he pardon himself, even if it was a state that prosecuted it?
Related question: How is this different from AZ prosecuting Federal immigration violations, which SCOTUS said they couldn't do?
NY can't and isn't prosecuting a federal offense. States can have laws that are similar or even duplicative. He is being prosecuted for a state offense
The federal government doesn't have a plenary power over elections. It's role is actually quite limited. That is in contrast to immigration which it has plenary power over (at least under long standing doctrine) and it also implicates foreign affairs. And again NY isn't trying to enforce federal law.
For many reasons, including the fact that the state isn't prosecuting a federal offense and the fact that he's not president and therefore has no pardon power.
The felony charge.is based on the theory that Trump was.trying to cover up a Federal crime.
But you knew that.
And?
I did know that. So what? Whether he pardoned — or pardons — himself for that federal crime has no bearing on whether he falsified business records to cover up that crime.
He couldn't have done it to cover a up a crime, because the action alleged isn't a crime.
Think this through though. Assuming the falsified business records were fake invoices paid to Cohen as legitimate attorney fees. Then assume Trump wrote off the legal services as a business deduction (or similar) on his taxes. Do you doubt he did so?
How many times has it been said…the coverup can be worse than the crime. Trump’s CFO was involved in all kinds of various tax law violations. He did time for it. Was indicted for it. At all times, he was working for Trump and Trump was the boss. Which means Trump was a part of it. Trump was also a part of this payment scheme; and Trump signed the checks to Cohen. He knew the payments weren’t for legitimate legal services. Yet he paid them.
There is a long paper trail documenting all of this. And the State will have Cohen’s testimony that he, the CFO & Trump devised the scheme for Cohen to set up a shell company to pay Stormy and be reimbursed by the Trump Org with the fake invoices.
Why should Trump get a pass when they took all these steps to falsify records to cover up what happened?
That may — or may not — be true, but whether or not he pardons himself for the crime has no bearing on that issue.
Yet Trump has never been charged for the alleged crime. NY DA trying to convict Trump for something he's never been charged with much less convicted of.
No, the NY DA is trying to convict Trump for something he has been charged with: falsifying business records.
You know what he meant. The DA bumped the charges up from misdemeanors to felonies on the ridiculous theory that Trump violated federal law. Despite the fact that the feds didn't charge him.
Also, despite the fact the inconsistency that courts keep ruling against states who want to take federal immigration matters into their hands. But federal election matters are ok?
States could prosecute businesses for falsifying business records for the purpose of hiring undocumented workers or could prosecute undocumented individuals for forging a drivers license or birth certificate of SSA card (or for identity theft if they use a real one that belongs to someone else).
This isn’t even hard. Why are you having trouble understanding?
Yeah, states could. Until the feds sue them for it. But since they are so focused on Texas right now, they have to turn a blind eye to NY.
In this case, Bragg couldn't even specifically say what federal laws Trump violated exactly. For non-Trump candidates they don't usually resort to such creative overreach, insisting that giving personal money to a mistress is a "campaign expense".
Are you just pretending to be obtuse? Or is this for real?
I think they are not understanding that federal immigration law has occupied the field of immigration enforcement such that state's don't have a role and are preempted from engaging/interfering in it. Whereas with this law regarding business records, there is no field preemption. NY State law can be enforced and if relevant; federal law on the same topic can also be enforced. The fact that DOJ is not doesn't mean NY state is prevented from enforcing their own laws. NY don't need permission from anybody to enforce their own state laws.
Why do you think that Bragg "couldn't say" what federal laws Trump was trying to conceal violations of?
Bragg claims Trump “violated election laws” when he instructed Cohen to pay Daniels. Which election laws? Bragg so far has refused to say. “The indictment doesn’t specify them because the law does not so require,” he told reporters last year.
https://reason.com/2024/02/16/alvin-bragg-is-trying-to-punish-trump-for-something-that-is-not-a-crime/
Because Bragg knows he's got nothing. And asking him to explain himself is like asking a poker player who is bluffing to show his weak hand.
Yes. It's not clear why federal DOJ policies would determine NY's policies on prosecution. Clinton of course did not pay anyone hush money (that we know of), but was impeached; Edwards was prosecuted and acquitted on one charge with hung juries on five charges. Trump is indicted for hush money paid to three individuals, and those paying it understood that it was to benefit his campaign. Voters should have the benefit of learning what is revealed in the upcoming trial (to add to everything else they know about the candidates) and decide for themselves if Trump deserves their votes.
"Yes. It’s not clear why federal DOJ policies would determine NY’s policies on prosecution"
NY has never explained why these misdemeanor charges are not, in fact, misdemeanors as of yet.
those paying it understood that it was to benefit his campaign
Need lots of mind reading to justify your hate.
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-stormy-daniels-karen-mcdougal-payoffs-40dd9d1f3590dfcd5c494b1815e9eaa2
No mind reading is needed. A lot of denial needed to justify your worship of Trump.
Edwards was running for president while his hush money scam was uncovered but here smoothbrained marxists like you are denying reality.
How'd that work out for him?
Calabresi has become unhinged in a way we rarely see on full public display. The idea that it’s prosecutorial misconduct to not follow what some other jurisdictions’ prosecutors did in decades-old cases is beyond absurd.
It would be like saying the Jim Crow South didn’t prosecute whites for murdering blacks so it’s prosecutorial misconduct for modern-day prosecutors in other states to bring murder charges in similar cases. (Hell, even the former Jim Crow jurisdictions could obviously prosecute similar cases without it being prosecutorial misconduct.) Everyone would immediately see how stupid that argument is—everyone except Trump acolytes.
So 25 years ago, cheesy partisans refusing to prosecute were a product of their times, but today everyone is clean and pure as the snow in the Yukon, motivated, you god dammit assure us, by pure disinterested concern for rule of law?
I…I believe you! Turning the power of government against political opponents-qua-opponents is over. The plague of millenia has ended!
What a time to be alive!
Just because things have changed for the better doesn't mean that everything is now perfect. But things are largely the same; of the three men, the two who had others pay hush money to benefit their campaigns were indicted.
WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE! I BELIEVE YOU!
Loud but appropriate agreement; these are facts which you can verify for yourself.
I literally said none of that. But you, like Calabresi, need to lie and distort to protect Trump.
I've been reading your supercharged cynicism for years. You're clearly intelligent and it's disappointing to remember that Sarcastr0 (and myself) once tried to umm ... sway your viewpoint, but to no avail.
I'd recommend watching 'A Man in Full' when the mini-series comes out this summer (Jeff Daniels; Diane Lane). Or read the book.
Exploding preconceptions can be enlightening.
Trump is a sack of shit! He needs to lose! I will joyously not vote for him a 3rd time! We don’t need someone checkered flag west of Poland and all that.
This isn’t just a sufficient reason, but a full blown deal breaker.
But I will not fall in with facetious statements people aren’t going after him because he is a political opponent.
What percent of this stuff would be under way “butfor” him being a thorn in the side as a presidential candidate? A good chunk of constitution design principle orients around stopping using the investigative power of government against political enemies, including two amendments. When I said doing that was actually the biggest threat to democracy, and not hyperbolized descriptions of a tantrum that got out of control (of the sarcastic form “see all this rioting shit the other sides’s been doing for a few years without significant blowback, your turn!”) I meant it.
What percent of this stuff would be under way “butfor” him being a thorn in the side as a presidential candidate?
This has nothing to do with figure head Joe.
This is the DC swamp breaking out in a cold sweat, their gravy train of gift will be exposed by President Trump. Now that he has seen where the traps lie.
He had four years to 'expose' it, all we got was rhetoric, lies, propaganda and conspiracy theories about how he had everyone exactly where he wanted them. This is more of the same.
'But I will not fall in with facetious statements people aren’t going after him because he is a political opponent.'
This is a fecetious principle, unfalsifiable no matter what Trump does. Being a political opponent does not place you above the law in any sensible or sane society.
Whore Calabresi whoring himself. Dog bites man.
Clinton wasn't convicted in the Senate for his lies? Wow, Trump was even luckier . . . Trump wasn't even impeached for this in the House.
What Calabresi ignores, of course (as other posters have noted), is that Trump did his lying specifically to win an election. Protecting his marriage was probably also a factor, certainly; but this is an enormous different between his case and Clinton's.
Fish gotta swim. Birds gotta fly. Whoring whores gotta whore, till the day that they die. Keep up the good fight, Steven! You're giving Josh Blackman a run for his money.
The suggestion that this affair could have had any effect on Trump’s marriage (or, for that matter, that the idea that it might would have played any role in Trump’s behavior) is risible.
And yet, revealed preference: he paid out money to cover it up. Trump is not known for generosity; if he gave Stormy 6 figures to keep quiet, it's because he was afraid that the story would hurt him.
The twice divorced man with many affairs, both admitted and rumored, was probably not worried that the revelation would hurt his marriage. But his campaign? It reeled from the Access Hollywood tape; several additional lurid stories of infidelity added on to his locker room boasts might have swung too many votes. Hush money payments a decade earlier might have looked like protecting his marriage; only paying in the midst of a campaign looks like protecting his campaign.
Wow, that escalated quickly
Clinton lied about discriminating against women. Paula Jones.
Well, initially Clinton lied for a different reason. Just for the youngsters here let’s review.
He was being sued by a former employee, Paula Jones, for non-consensual sexual conduct in the workplace, specifically, using state troopers to escort her to his hotel room where he exposed his genitals and propositioned her. He lied about different, consensual, conduct with Monica Lewinsky to cover the now rather obvious fact that he routinely solicited sexual favors from female subordinates.
Which is different, as many of you are pointing out.
However, on November 6, 1998, Senator Moynihan announced that he would not run for reelection, leaving an opening for Hillary Clinton to run for the NY senate seat. On November 13, 1998, the Clintons paid Paula Jones $400K to drop her lawsuit.
No doubt some of the lawyers here will jump in to point out that HRC had not yet formally filed for the seat when this $400K to aid her campaign was spent, and that’s the most important thing, and that makes it totally different.
‘the now rather obvious fact that he routinely solicited sexual favors from female subordinates.’
This was never established, and frankly no-one cared, sexual harassment and exploitation in the workplace was still a joke to most people, something feminazis complained about (shamefully, some prominent feminists threw her under the bus). If it had mattered, JUST Lewinsky should have been sufficent to damn him. To the best of my knowledge he has not been MeTooed, but having said all that, if he was, nobody would have been surprised.
The President said to the Ms.:
"Your mouth is a good place for jizz,
And whether it's moral
For you to do oral
Depends on the meaning of 'is'."
Where are this man's handlers?
Is the first amendment so sacred it's worth letting a clearly senile person destroy themselves on your platform?
You should be ashamed volokh and co.
Something must be wrong with my Internets, I can't find the Parkinsonian Joe post you're clearly referring to.
Have you heard of Ted Kennedy?
Almost the entire media — liberal and conservative, top to bottom — was anti-Clinton, urging either impeachment or resignation. Meanwhile he had a 65% approval rating. It was the biggest disconnect between media and public in my lifetime. The media kept predicting a Democratic wipeout in the 1998 elections, but to their surprise (though not to the surprise of anyone actually following the polls) the Democrats achieved the rare feat of gaining seats in the sixth year of a same-party presidency.
Why was this?
1. When Clinton said “I did not have sex with that woman”, he was telling the truth. Most people did not consider a blowjob to be “sex”. This was confirmed by an extensive survey done by the Lancet a few years before that.
2. If he did lie, it was a lie any married man would have told. I know I would, and the same is true of the pompous politicians who tried to capitalize on it.
3. It was a lawsuit that never should have been brought. Like the other Clinton sex stuff, the allegations were financed by political opponents. And it was only possible because of a Supreme Court decision that ridiculously held that allowing such suits against a sitting President to go forward would not impact his performance in office. (Ha!)
4. By no stretch of the imagination would the Framers have considered this “Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors” which are the only predicates for impeachment.
William Juffuhson should have followed his own policy,
"Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
I will respond Seriatim (that means in order)
1: I guess it depends on what the meaning of "Sex" is...................?
2: The Eddie Murphy D-fense, "It wasn't me"
3: "The other Clinton sex stuff" do you mean
i: Juanita Broaddrick accused Clinton of raping her in 1978;
ii: Leslie Millwee accused Clinton of sexually assaulting her in 1980
iii: Paula Jones accused Clinton of exposing himself to her in 1991 as well as sexually harassing her
iv: Kathleen Willey accused Clinton of groping her without her consent in 1993
v: Cristy Zercher, a former flight attendant, had accused Clinton of groping and fondling her on a 1992 campaign flight while his wife Hillary was sleeping nearby
vi: Eileen Wellstone reiterated to reporters that she had accused
Clinton of sexually assaulting her in 1969, when they were students at Oxford.
vii: A campaign staffer, Sandra Allen James, accused Clinton of sexually assaulting her in his hotel room in 1991. She claimed that he exposed himself to her and forced her to conduct oral sex on him while they were sitting on the couch
viii: A former professor from the University of Arkansas claimed Clinton had groped a female student and tried to trap her in his office when he was a professor. This would later be backed up by a piece written by Daniel Harris and Teresa Hampton, which alleged that students at the university confirmed that Clinton had tried to force himself on them when he was a professor
ix: Karen Hinton, who served in the Clinton administration under the HUD Secretary Andrew Cuomo, told journalist Michael Isikoff that Clinton had harassed her at a fundraiser in 1984. Hinton claimed that Clinton had been staring at her and that he wrote down his hotel room number and a question mark on a napkin and gave it to her, which she said made her feel humiliated. Her allegations were published in Isikoff's book Uncovering Clinton.[
x: In November 2017, sources within the Democratic Party told author and former foreign editor of Newsweek Edward Klein that Clinton was being accused of sexual assault by four women. The plaintiffs alleged that the assaults took place shortly after the end of his presidency in the early 2000s, while they were in their late teens. A member of Clinton's legal team confirmed the existence of new allegations against Clinton
Frank "Believe the Women!"
"Frank “Believe the Women!”"
Only if it's E Jean Carrol.
Clinton’s lawyers had provided the court with a definition of “sexual intercourse” prior to his testimony.” That definition was consistent with the law of a number of states. For example, in State v. Richardson, 300 SE 2nd 379 (1983), the North Carolina Supreme Court gave a list of things the term “sexual intercourse” in North Carolina’s prostitution statute did not include, and fellatio was on the list. North Carolina’s approach followed that of a number of states with sodomy laws, whose courts declared “sexual intercourse” and sodomy to be mutually exclusive terms, and found various statutes using the term “sexual intercourse” unqualified to exclude acts constituting sodomy.
Indeed, the whole point of sodomy laws was that the law regards unnatural sex as something morally very very different from sexual intercourse. That’s why sexual intercourse was a misdemeanor but fellatio a felony. Clinton simply used the fact that it was traditionally considered more serious to his advantage,
However, Clinton did not say, "i did not have sexual intercourse."
He did say he did not have sex.
The most intelligent and charismatic POTUS of the past 4 decades certainly knew how to play the ball.
The actual comment was "sexual relations" iirc.
even worse. What else is a blow job.
You’re right. His lawyers defined “sexual relations.” But “relations” is such a polite, quaint reference to sex, it probably wouldn’t have been thought to encompass the felony sort a couple of generations ago.
Actually it was the judge who had the final say on what "sexual relations" meant.
"he was telling the truth. "
Given today's ideas about office sex in the framework of gross power imbalance, it was rape.
"If he did lie, it was a lie any married man would have told."
Wow, a ethical concept that even Trump can embrace. It is a kin to what a church deacon told me 30 years ago, "a lie is not a lie, if the truth is not expected."
As for 3) and 4), I agree. And they should also apply to the Orange Clown today.
'Wow, a ethical concept that even Trump can embrace.'
As a Republican? Only if they ditched the sanctimonious family and Christian values which they'd been hypocritically using to hammer opponents and anyone they didn't like for decades. Oh wait.
Given today’s ideas about office sex in the framework of gross power imbalance, it was rape.
I don't think this is true.
So, lying to a federal grand jury is ok, if you’re a Democrat. Yes, we got that. It’s why we’re gonna elect President Trump. One of the reasons, anyway.
The question isn't whether or not it's "ok". The question is whether or not it's a HIGH crime.
A high crime is defined as a crime committed by a political office-holder using his power of office to break the law. A crime which you couldn't even think of doing if you weren't an office-holder. For instance, a high-ranking FDA official who uses his FDA position to prevent FDA from approving a drug which competes with a product produced by a company he holds stock in, that's a high crime, because if he weren't an FDA official, he couldn't even think of committing that crime. You can't decide whether FDA approves a drug unless you are an officeholder in FDA.
IN Bill Clinton's case, anyone can perjure himself under oath in a civil lawsuit. You don't need to be POTUS to commit that crime. The doorman in my building could perjure himself in a civil lawsuit.
Now, Trump is accused of failing to report the use of campaign money to pay off a porn star. You can't fail to report the use of your campaign money unless you are carrying out a campaign. So that's a high crime.
Except Trump didn't use campaign funds he used his own money. What is alleged is that because it could benefit his campaign it should have been counted as campaign funds. Without that allegation what they have is misdemeanor reporting violations of what Trump labeled the expenditures as on his financial report where the payments he made to his lawyer were labeled as legal expenses ( seems reasonable to me). And the problem there is that if really only misdemeanors the statute of limitations ran out before the charges were filed.
That argument just doesn't work. The doorman in your building can take a shovel and beat his wife to death with it. That doesn't mean the president can't/shouldn't be impeached if he does the same.
Clinton was a lawyer. A lawyer committing perjury is very much a "high crime".
As to point 3 the lawsuit was able to occur because of a law Bill Clinton signed into law with great fanfare in the White House Rose Garden. He was surrounded by many top Democrats and women’s groups who applauded as the bill was signed. It was only after it was used against Bill Clinton that suddenly the law became problematic.
"Most people did not consider a blowjob to be “sex”. This was confirmed by an extensive survey done by the Lancet a few years before that."
This is certainly inconsistent with my recollection, and a search for your Lancet survey come up with nothing. But in any event, the definition of sex was spelled out precisely in the deposition, and the Starr report found several instances where he had sex with her according to that definition.
"And it was only possible because of a Supreme Court decision that ridiculously held that allowing such suits against a sitting President to go forward would not impact his performance in office. (Ha!)"
You think the President should be immune from civil suits because he might lie about sex during a deposition and create a scandal that distracts him from his work?
Sorry, it wasn't the Lancet, it was JAMA, reporting on a Kinsey Institute study.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/188367
The poll asks about (among other things), penile-vaginal intercourse, penile-anal intercourse, but it doesn't ask about penile-oral intercourse. Instead, it asks about oral-genital contact.
When it comes to the question of whether oral-genital contact counts as having sex, the devil is in the details (as it is with penile-vaginal contact, or penile-anal contact.)
This is an odd mistake for JAMA to make in a survey that explicitly claims to measure attitudes around Clinton's behavior.
The study did not concern Clinton's behavior. It had been done in 1991. And most people consider oral-penis behavior and oral-vagina behavior as more or less in the same category. It's called "going down".
The Context given by the JAMA article: "The current public debate regarding whether oral sex constitutes having "had sex" or sexual relations has reflected a lack of empirical data on how Americans as a population define these terms." So you're correct, it was not the survey that made the claim, it was the article that published the survey.
But oral-genital contact include things that count as having sex, as well as things that don't. So the survey doesn't shed any light attitudes surrounding Clinton's behavior, even though JAMA falsely claims that it does.
Prof. Calabresi’s unhinged rants are fully deserving of the criticism that comes their way, but this is also pathetic partisan hackery.
1. That’s not what Clinton said when he committed perjury.
2. While everyone can understand the motivation to lie instead of admitting to something embarrassing, people do in fact find the courage to do just that every day.
3. “I don’t think I should have to deal with this lawsuit” is not a license to commit crimes to frustrate it.
4. I am open to the possibility that perjury and subornation of perjury aren’t high crimes and misdemeanors, but I want to see a little more than just your word on that.
To put a more charitable interpretation on the earlier claim, "that was sodomy, not sexual intercourse, and the Founders would not have understood extramarital sodomy to be a high crime or misdemeanor" is a ... creative ... hypothesis.
In the immortal words of Kinky Freidman, "Eatin' ain't cheatin'."
Next week, Calabresi explains why Trump - but only Trump - should win his absolute immunity case
I'm ok either way. If President Trump loses, then we can prosecute President Obama and Biden for their crimes.
I’ve often disagreed with Steven Calabresi. But on the legal merits, the claim that documenting a payment to a mistress as a legal expense violated campaign finance laws strikes me as something of a stretch. No money was paid to or from his campaign. And I think that if Michael Cohen hadn’t decided to plead guilty to assuage his conscience, he might well have been acquited or won on appeal on the campaign finance charges for his end of the business.
I think in general New York has chosen the weakest of the possible cases it might pursue to press charges on, both legally and politically. It could have, for example, pursued tax fraud charges for undervaluing his properties for tax purposes, it could have charged for the scheme to inflate maintenance costs and rents on NY apartments, and perhaps other things as well. Its officials almost seem to have an eye for what are the weakest possible things we could charge this guy on.
"And I think that if Michael Cohen hadn’t decided to plead guilty to assuage his conscience,"
It would have violated his conscience to let the prosecutors nail him to the wall on unrelated charges?
The payments were made by others to benefit Trump's campaign; therefore, campaign contributions, which exceeded the allowed limits and were not properly reported.
How much have Google, Meta, and others spent to help Democrats get elected? Why aren't Joe Biden and other Democrats being prosecuted under the same theory?
PACs spend a lot of money to influence elections; they aren't allowed to coordinate with the campaigns.
(More money spent to benefit Republicans than Democrats, though.)
Well, you made up your claim, but — as anyone who is familiar with Citizens United could tell you — it's entirely legal for someone to make independent expenditures on behalf of a political campaign. So there's no "same theory." (It would also be legal for Trump to do this to get elected; he just can't falsify records to hide it.)
As to point 3 the lawsuit was able to occur because of a law Bill Clinton signed into law with great fanfare in the White House Rose Garden. He was surrounded by many top Democrats and women's groups who applauded as the bill was signed. It was only after it was used against Bill Clinton that suddenly the law became problematic.
I've often made that point myself: However unfair you might think it was to force Clinton to give that testimony, he was one of just a few hundred people in the entire world categorically barred from complaining about it: The guy who signed it, and the members of Congress who voted for it.
Let anybody else object, and I'll listen to their case. Those few hundred have no right to complain.
I understand the argument that campaign finances were involved and the cover up was intended to sway an election. But, I remain uncomfortable with this prosecution because at its heart, this is about covering up sex and the Clinton case demonstrated the public doesn't care. As such, I am worried this prosecution will help Trump's electoral prospects.
I think this is OP’s fear as well. People on here always think he’s a Trump supporter, but I don’t believe he is. It seems like his wider concern is that going scorched earth on a former president is bad for the union in general and helps Trump specifically.
I have no such concern for the 2020 election-related charges and much less for the classified documents.
All of this should have been avoided except there were enough cowardly Republican senators who did not convict and disqualify Trump in early 2021. McConnell is particularly guilty after giving a great speech at the conclusion of the trial and voting to acquit on a technicality (Trump was no longer in office). And now, he endorsed him? I don't get it.
McConnell isn’t well known for his consistency…
He' actually demonstrated a remarkable degree of career-wide consistency.
...if you define consistency as make sure that what I want to get done, gets done.
But it didn't involve campaign finances unless you assume that the only reason the money was paid was to protect the campaign as Trump paid out of his own pocket. All Trump needs to claim to destroy that narrative is that he didn't want his wife or family to find out about his liason with Daniels.
If Steve Calabresi rants at the clouds and nobody pays him any attention, ...........................
The trouble is that the VC gives him a platform with no apparent requirements that he write rationally or thoughtfully. If I didn't know anything about Calabresi, I would assume that his contributions to the VC were actually written by Homer Simpson's father after spending a long evening at Moe's Bar.
My chuck-a-luck wager is on a stroke -- or perhaps a series of small strokes.
Can Northwestern genuinely ignore this much longer? Unless the school has relieved this guy of his duties with respect to first-year students (who generally do not get to choose their instructors), how can Northwestern justify inflicting this guy on its students?
Every school that made the mistake of hiring a Volokh Conspirator must suffer the diminution of reputation deriving from having this blog associated with their institution, and deciding how much longer to tolerate that self-inflicted stain is a judgment call for schools such as UCLA and Georgetown. Also, letting these disaffected, bigot-embracing, fringe culture war casualties teach students who select such a class is one thing. But imposing this sputtering clinger on first-year law students at a legitimate law school (distinguished from Regent, Ave Maria, Brigham Young, Liberty, South Texas, and a few others) is professional malpractice for a strong, mainstream educational institution.
Penn State "ignored" Jerry Sandusky for years, as you well know.
Penn State ignored Sandusky and Paterno.
Baylor ignored similar offenders (including Ken Starr).
The Catholic Church ignored criminals, victims, and decency.
The record seems to incriminate conservative institutions.
"and nobody pays him any attention"
And yet you are here commenting, paying him attention.
Trump is leaving out his best argument. Paying the money is not covering it up in an attempt to win the election because his supporters would not care if he committed adultery, and would likely love him more if he came out and bragged about bedding a porn star.
They seemed to love him more after he bragged about grabbing women by the p*ssy. I wonder how female Trump voters would react if during a rally he came down off the podium and grabbed their own p*ssy?
probably the same way little girls do when Creepy Joe sniffs their hair.
1. Clinton's impeachment and this aren't apples to apples. Not disqualifying doesn't mean not illegal
2. As was said Clinton pled guilty for a lenient sentence
3. Edwards was prosecuted and a jury decided his fate.
4. What does DOJ policy have to do with NY?
So where is disparate treatment?
One aggravating factor with President Clinton is he signed a law which allowed sex-abuse plaintiffs broader discovery powers about the defendant's sexual behavior. He was ensnared by the law he himself signed.
That's right. Others argued that it was unfair for a plaintiff to go fishing, but Clinton helped bring us that law.
All this discussion of lying to cover up a sexual affair may be irrelevant, as there is no proof that Trump lied, or that he had anything to cover up. All we know is that Cohen paid off an extortionist in an attempt to be his lawyer-fixer, and Trump reimbursed Cohen as a legal expense. It was a legal expense to pay the bill of a lawyer-fixer who paid off an extortionist.
Threatening to go public with a true story is not extortion.
…and you know the story is “true” because?
Do you believe E. Jean Carrol's story is true?
A court of law found it so.
Not what I asked.
I know.
I thought Clitnton settled with Paula Jones out of court.
That is kind of a textbook example of extortion.
Pay me or I tell is the very definition of extortion.
People were pointing out that he was a massive extortion risk, but hey.
So do the Biden family connections to foreign businesses make Joe Biden an extortion risk?
Only if they’re a) dodgy b) real c) anything to do with Joe Biden d) for the purposes of the current discussion: Joe Biden paid somebody to keep quiet about them.
Really?
? I mean, in some places it might be called blackmail rather than extortion, but that seems pedantic.
Threatening to go public with a true story is not extortion.
Huh? IANAL but I thought that demanding money in exchange for keeping quiet about a true story it is clearcut extortion, or blackmail.
"For $10,000 I won't tell your wife about you taking your secretary on that 'business trip' last month."
Perfectly legal?
Yeah, that's not how it works.
So funneling drug payments through a lawyer doesn't turn my cocaine habit expense into a legal expense?
Now you tell me!
Sorry.
Indeed, as Trump people are fond of noting, Hillary's campaign was fined for classifying the payments to Fusion GPS as "legal expenses" merely because they were passed through Perkins Coie on the way to Fusion GPS.
Because the Fusion GPS work actually was campaign work; It's not like you randomly hire pros to compile fake dossiers on people when they're not your opponent in an election.
While people pay off extortionists all the time outside of a campaign.
That IS the distinction, after all: Would you have done it even if you weren't running for office? If yes, it's not a campaign expense. If no, it is.
He would not have done it if he weren't running for office. He wouldn't have made the payments if he weren't running for office, and he wouldn't have felt the need to falsely call them legal expenses if he weren't running for office.
No. The difference is that adultery is not a crime nor is paying someone to be silent about a non-criminal act a crime. Those are generally called non disclosure agreements and businesses do it all of the time.
Now since purchasing cocaine is considered a criminal act funneling the payment through lawyers or other intermediaries won't protect you from the underlying crime.
As of last summer criminal adultery is still on the books in 15 states (I think they're wrong about Idaho though), and is a felony in 3 of them.
Clinton paid a price for Lewinsky. And maybe he should have gone to trial for it. Hard to see that as in the political cards back then; it's not like the GOP didn't give it their utmost.
Edwards did go to trial (apparently? I didn't even realize; dude fell off the political map *hard*)
There is no inconsistency with how Trump is being treated. -First, because different jurisdictions in utterly different decades are going to make different decisions.
-Second, because three data points is not enough to establish much.
In the end, as with all these Calabresi posts, the question is who is this kind of ramshackle logic for. The Trump defenders don't need any logic, and it's not convincing anyone else.
I guess it drives engagement.
I must be in alternate universe, because you're sounding like you make sense.
Or put it this way: both parties are sleazy organizations with sleazy people. And they compete with each other by saying the other guys are somehow worse.
Yes, and even if they were equally bad, their partisans would see the other guys as worse.
Where it gets ugly, is that the other guys being bad seems to justify being bad yourself. If you're fighting something that horrible, you can't afford to be picky about means, in the end a bit of evil is justified to fight a greater evil. Maybe if you're a utilitarian, it doesn't even look like evil at all, so long as the end is just.
But because of that slewed perception, you get a kind of death spiral; Each side keeps escalating its own wrongs, justified by its own perception of the other side as much worse, and that escalation itself justifies the other side's escalation in their perception of the world.
This is the fundamental problem of utilitarian ethics in politics. If men were objective and near omniscient, they might be workable, but with real human beings you need teleology to provide an anchor to halt that death spiral. You need a determination to not respond to perceived evil with evil, to not cut corners.
Well, it would also help to reduce the stakes a lot. Only really genuinely bad people cheat at penny ante poker, anyone short of a saint might cheat if trapped in a game where the next hand could mean the end of everything they value. We need to reduce what government does, to cut the stakes back.
People are not as partisan, cynical, and unprofessional as you think.
If we need to reduce what government does, here are the starters:
-- reduce bigoted, militarized, cheating police activity
-- end statist womb management and big-government micromanagement of ladyparts clinics
-- reduce authoritarian, cruel immigration policies and practices
-- reduce military actions, especially attacking the wrong countries and supporting objectionable foreign interests
-- end the war on drugs
-- curb the old-timey morality police (who afflict gays, drag queens, transgender persons, etc.)
-- diminish or eliminate farm subsidies
-- diminish or eliminate rural subsidies that transfer funds from modern, educated, productive communities to obsolete, ignorant, can't-keep-up communities
The incentives for a two-party system are more than just a few ballot access rules.
And while I'm all for having more parties, I don't think that'd make politics less riven with sex scandals.
Now you’ve abandoned your brief spell of being sensible, and you’re back to the old Sarcastro we know and love, babbling foolishness.
“The incentives for a two-party system are more than just a few ballot access rules.”
As if I held the straw-man position you refute. Direct your argument to the supporters of the two major parties, making the pragmatic point to them that they still have advantages even without enacting unjust restrictions on their opponents’ ballot access.
Your reference to “a few ballot access rules” is misleading in the extreme, as if third parties were complaining of small filing fees rather than the whole mass of restrictions designed to keep them off the ballot.
One cannot tilt at every windmill.
You have your preferred causes, I have mine. Don't insist I adopt yours; I get enough of that on the leftist boards I visit.
Again with the straw-manning, I wasn’t seeking your (highly dubious) assistance in opposing unjust ballot-access laws, I was pointing out how you’re misrepresenting my position.
Seems to me more like tilting at dragons. Or are you claiming discriminatory ballot access and other rules aren't real?
I’m saying they are not the main impediment to third party success.
One reason there aren't a lot of data points is that the creative legal theory that payments to a mistress constitute a reportable campaign expense is so ludicrous that few prosecutors will try it. Besides Trump, the Edwards case was actually the only time that theory was tested, and the jury rejected that charge.