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The Second Amendment and 18-to-20-Year-Olds
From Third Circuit Judge Cheryl Krause's dissent from denial of rehearing en banc yesterday in Lara v. Commissioner; Judges Shwartz, Restrepo, Freeman, Montgomery-Reeves, and Chung also voted to rehear the case en banc, but didn't write an opinion or join Judge Krause's:
When they ratified the Second Amendment, our Founders did not intend to bind the nation in a straitjacket of 18th-century legislation, nor did they mean to prevent future generations from protecting themselves against gun violence more rampant and destructive than the Founders could have possibly imagined. At a minimum, one would think that the states' understanding of the Second Amendment at the time of the "Second Founding"—the moment in 1868 when they incorporated the Bill of Rights against themselves—is part of "the Nation's historical tradition of firearms regulation" informing the constitutionality of modern-day regulations.
Indeed, since the Supreme Court tethered their constitutionality to the existence of historical precedent in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), we and the other Courts of Appeals have consistently looked to Reconstruction-era, as well as Founding-era sources, and, even as the Supreme Court has acknowledged the "ongoing scholarly debate" about their relevance, it too has relied on Reconstruction-era sources in each of its recent major opinions on the right to bear arms. Notably, the Supreme Court is expected within the next few months, if not weeks, to issue its next seminal opinion, clarifying its historical methodology in the absence of Founding-era analogues.
Yet despite our own precedent acknowledging the relevance of Reconstruction-era sources, our recognition in an en banc opinion just last year that the Supreme Court relies on both Founding-era and Reconstruction-era sources, and an imminent decision from the Supreme Court that may prove dispositive to this case, the panel majority here announced— over Judge Restrepo's compelling dissent—that all historical sources after 1791 are irrelevant to our Nation's historical tradition and must be "set aside" when seeking out the "historical analogues" required to uphold a modern-day gun regulations. The panel majority then held—based exclusively on 18th-century militia laws and without regard to the voluminous support the statutory scheme finds in 19th-century analogues—that Pennsylvania's prohibition on 18-to-20-year-old youth carrying firearms in public during statewide emergencies is unconstitutional.
The panel majority was incorrect, but more importantly, it erred profoundly in the methodology to which it purports to bind this entire Court and with far-reaching consequences. Against this backdrop, we should be granting Pennsylvania's petition for en banc review, supported by 17 other states and the District of Columbia as amici, or at least holding it c.a.v. pending the Supreme Court's decision in United States v. Rahimi. But instead, over the objection of nearly half our Court, we are denying it outright.
I respectfully dissent from that denial for four reasons. First, without en banc review, the panel majority's pronouncement cannot bind future panels of this Court. We have held Reconstruction-era sources to be relevant in decisions both before and after Bruen so, under our case law and our Internal Operating Procedures, en banc rehearing is necessary before any subsequent panel can bind our Court to a contrary position. Second, en banc review would allow us to apply the proper historical methodology, which would compel a different outcome in this case. Third, en banc review is necessary for error correction: Even if we limit ourselves to Founding-era sources, the panel failed to recognize that legislatures in that era were authorized to categorically disarm groups they reasonably judged to pose a particular risk of danger, and Pennsylvania's modern-day judgment that youth under the age of 21 pose such a risk is well supported by evidence subject to judicial notice. And fourth, the majority's narrow focus on the Founding era demands rehearing because it ignores the Supreme Court's recognition that "cases implicating unprecedented societal concerns or dramatic technological changes may require a more nuanced approach." For each of these reasons, discussed in turn below, en banc review should be granted….
The entire dissenting opinion is much worth reading, as is the panel majority opinion that held that 18-to-20-year-olds are protected by the Second Amendment; an excerpt:
Through the combined operation of three statutes, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania effectively bans 18-to-20-year-olds from carrying firearms outside their homes during a state of emergency. Madison Lara, Sophia Knepley, and Logan Miller, who were in that age range when they filed this suit, want to carry firearms outside their homes for lawful purposes, including self-defense…. The words "the people" in the Second Amendment presumptively encompass all adult Americans, including 18-to-20-year-olds, and we are aware of no founding-era law that supports disarming people in that age group. Accordingly, we will reverse and remand….
The Commissioner … [argues] that, "[a]t the time of the Founding—and, indeed, for most of the Nation's history—those who were under the age of 21 were considered 'infants' or 'minors' in the eyes of the law[,]" "mean[ing] that they had few independent legal rights." True enough, from before the founding and through Reconstruction, those under the age of 21 were considered minors.
Notwithstanding the legal status of 18-to-21-year-olds during that period, however, the Commissioner's position is untenable for three reasons. First, it supposes that the first step of a Bruen analysis requires excluding individuals from "the people" if they were so excluded at the founding. That argument conflates Bruen's two distinct analytical steps. Although the government is tasked with identifying a historical analogue at the second step of the Bruen analysis, we are not limited to looking through that same retrospective lens at the first step. If, at step one, we were rigidly limited by eighteenth century conceptual boundaries, "the people" would consist of white, landed men, and that is obviously not the state of the law.
Second, it does not follow that, just because individuals under the age of 21 lacked certain legal rights at the founding, they were ex ante excluded from the scope of "the people." As then-Judge Barrett explained, "[n]either felons nor the mentally ill are categorically excluded from our national community." But "[t]hat does not mean that the government cannot prevent them from possessing guns. Instead, it means that the question is whether the government has the power to disable the exercise of a right that they otherwise possess."
Third, consistency has a claim on us. It is undisputed that 18-to-20-year-olds are among "the people" for other constitutional rights such as the right to vote, freedom of speech, peaceable assembly, government petitions, and the right against unreasonable government searches and seizures…. [W]holesale exclusion of 18-to-20-year-olds from the scope of the Second Amendment would impermissibly render "the constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense … 'a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.'"
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"When they ratified the Second Amendment, our Founders did not intend to bind the nation in a straitjacket of 18th-century legislation"
Then why was it not codified in a law rather than a constitutional right?
Because, as Conspirator Will Baude has laid out, the Founders expected the Constitution to fall under the same jurisprudence it did in England - to evolve incrementally, precedent upon precedent.
Especially when new facts come out, as with our understanding of this age demographic's brains.
The same jurisprudence as what did in England? You are aware that England (and the UK) have no actual "constitution", right? So if this "evolutionary process" gradually results in the complete opposite of what the law meant at the beginning, that's just the way it goes (there being no constitutional reference point)...
This lauded non-constitutional "constitutional" process infamously overturned the "double jeopardy" protections Britons had enjoyed for centuries, simply because the government of the day had copped some bad press in relation to a few hard cases of people "getting away with it".
Sorry, but I'd prefer to at least attempt to prevent the perversion of the Constitution for political purposes.
They had a constitution at the time of the Founding (Blackstone called it such), just not one codified in a single document.
I don’t believe that the audience of judicial types (judges and lawyers) thought it was very likely that common law jurisprudence would lead to the opposite of what the law meant.
If I gave the impression that common law practice means you rely ONLY on precedent and never look at the text, I apologize. It is not unmoored from the text, it’s more that you consider what previous judges said in addition to the text.
Baude in fact does go after some Warren Court precedents as too far from the text (AND precedent) to be legitimate under an originalist paradigm.
The Founders did provide a way to overturn precedent – the Amendment process!
You can call treating the Constitution as a legal document not a sacred text ‘perversion of the Constitution for political purposes’ but that’s not a take the Founders would have agreed with.
Dunno what you would call your preferred method of interpretation. I suppose it is internally consistent, if pretty ridiculous to implement. But originalist it is not.
No, we did not adopt an English version of Living Constitutionalism. I doubt very much that’s what Baude meant by that, given his nominal fidelity to the concept of originalism/original public meaning textualism (Section 3 aside).
If you haven’t noticed, those evolving, incremental precedents were essentially snapshotted in 1789/91 when our written Constitution and Bill of Rights were adopted (of course updated in 1868 by 14A). It was a conscious, affirmative decision (informed by the chaos of the post-independence development in the states ordering themselves without royal authority) to adopt a codified, written constitution. Federal judges do not build up a common law independent of the text or its specific grants of authority.
Any incremental development was discerning those codified rights. However, the codification did not create rights, it merely recognized those already in existence. Which is why prohibitions against unreasonable/warrantless searches and guns are a thing, and abortion is not.
But even the UK has been developing its own problem with judicial overreach, with their recently constituted Supreme Court (rechristened Judicial Committee of the House of Lords) somehow finding a prime minister’s advice to the Queen to prorogue Parliament (an unwritten royal prerogative) was unconstitutional. Because reasons and feelings about Brexit implementation.
This is not the same as a living constitution.
No, adopting a written constitution does not indicate an intent to 'snapshot' the Constitution in the late 1700s. That is not how the legal public at the time understood legal interpretation.
It is not how anyone understood jurisprudence until the 1980s.
the codification did not create rights, it merely recognized those already in existence
No, the Bill of Rights absolutely addressed current issues that the Founders wanted their new nation to not do. iow, recognizing rights that were *not yet* in existence.
Judge Krause should be familiar with the provisions of Article V of the Constitution, which specifies a method of dealing with changes in life.....
Nowhere does the Constitution say that judges get to make stuff up at a whim
This was understood at the time. 'Constitution in Amber' originalism didn't show up until freaking the latter half of the 20th century, as a way to go after popular Warren Court precedents.
https://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/william-baude-originalism-and-positive-turn
Clearly not: The judge doesn't like the USSC interpretation? The correct way to deal with it is to amend the Constitution, not legislate from the bench.
BTW, that 3/4 of the states requirements? Good luck with that
The opinion says nothing like 'I don't like the Supreme Court opinion.'
Also, legislating from the bench is an utterly different thing than going against your higher Court. Neither of which seems to be happening here.
I find it difficult to grasp that some would hold that 18 to 20 years olds, and younger with parental consent, can serve in the armed forces and serve their country, but cannot be allowed to defend themselves at home.
This is the same reason they (usually) get to drink if there's a draft. If another draft ever happens, and they still can't drink, I'm not sure this country isn't so dominated by busibodies it deserves to survive.
I find it difficult to grasp that some would hold that 18 to 20 years olds, and younger with parental consent, can serve in the armed forces and serve their country, but cannot be allowed to defend themselves at home.
Prior to the 26th Amendment (ratified in 1971), 18 to 20 year olds were regularly denied the right to vote. I suppose you find it difficult to grasp that this was true since the Founding in most of the states.
Prior to the 19th, women were denied the right to vote. Does that mean women can be denied the right to bear arms as well?
If you want to live by the originalism, you also will die by the originalism.
Why would anyone be dying by originalism? Perhaps you can show us where women were prohibited from bearing arms?
Apparently Sarcastr0's bizarre understanding of originalism includes not recognizing Constitutional amendments?
Mere adulthood wasn't the criterion for the vote at the Framing.
Exactly. States had different criteria, but often you had to be a man, white, and own property. There are likely other things that would seem ridiculous to base the right to vote on now.
This is the point. So much was different then, that insisting on originalism ("history and tradition" or whatever else they want to call it) for everything is never going to get any partisan or ideologue what they want all of the time. So, they end up using it only when it suits their goals. Which is completely antithetical to why originalists argue that it is the best way (or only 'correct' way) to interpret the Constitution.
I don't understand why you think this is a successful debunking of originalism. Of course suffrage was limited in the early Republic. It's why multiple constitutional amendments were passed, subsequent to the 14th Amendment's equal protection clause, to further expand the right to vote. The history and tradition was overturned by Article V amending, not judges finding penumbras.
It's why it's illegitimate for activists to try and accomplish with the equal protection magic wand things like a right to gay marriage or abortion.
Jason built a nice strawman to kick.
I don’t understand why you think this is a successful debunking of originalism. Of course suffrage was limited in the early Republic. It’s why multiple constitutional amendments were passed, subsequent to the 14th Amendment’s equal protection clause, to further expand the right to vote.
Read what I was replying to. reasonable started by saying that it was difficult to grasp why someone would think being 18-20 years old would too young to defend oneself in the home while being allowed to serve in the military. I pointed out that people that age weren't considered old enough to vote by most states prior to the 26th Amendment, which was ratified in the early 1970s. Then Aubrey LaVentana said that adulthood wasn't the sole criterion for the vote at the Founding, which I agreed with. That is when I argued that society was so different then that using the understanding of the text of the Constitution from that time period is going to bring their prejudices and attitudes into the present. I think that is a bad thing.
Of course suffrage was limited in the early Republic. It’s why multiple constitutional amendments were passed, subsequent to the 14th Amendment’s equal protection clause, to further expand the right to vote.
Do you realize that there is nothing in the text of the Constitution that prohibits the states from going back to requiring land ownership to have the right to vote? Even literacy tests aren't forbidden explicitly. It is only the interpretation of the Equal Protection Clause by courts and Congress's power to pass laws to implement the three voting rights Amendments (15th - no denial of the right to vote by race, 19th - no denial by sex, 26th - can't be denied by age for anyone at least 18) that is the basis of protecting many aspects of our voting rights.
It is interpretation by the SCOTUS that prohibits literacy tests, because it has ruled that they weren't ever implemented without doing it in a blatantly racist way. Poll taxes are prohibited by the 24th Amendment, but a property ownership requirement wouldn't be a poll tax. It would take the Court ruling that trying to implement that kind of rule again now would be inherently biased against minorities or women or by age to strike a restriction like that down.
In other words, so many of your rights are protected because the SCOTUS has interpreted the Equal Protection Clause, Due Process Clause, or other provisions broadly and used "penumbras" to reach that result, not because of the explicit text of an Amendment.
It’s why it’s illegitimate for activists to try and accomplish with the equal protection magic wand things like a right to gay marriage or abortion.
No person shall be denied the Equal Protection of the laws. Is a gay man or woman a person? If so, then they are entitled to equal protection of the laws. They must be allowed to take advantage of the privileges and protections granted by legally sanctioned marriages just like anyone else. Why is that so hard to accept?
Pregnancy inherently entails physical risks. Even with modern medicine, around 20 women die in a year for every 100,000 live births. (A statistic much higher for Black women, by the way.) No man is ever legally required to take on physical risk in order to benefit another person, let alone a 1 in 5000 risk of dying. Why can abortion be illegal and force women to take that kind of risk for something that is not yet a person? That's not my idea of Equal Protection either.
"nor did they mean to prevent future generations from protecting themselves against gun violence more rampant and destructive than the Founders could have possibly imagined. "
Spoiler: Violent crime rates at the time were as high or higher than what we're accustomed to.
"In the 17th century, the "peacetime murder rates for adult colonists . . . ranged from 100 to 500 or more per year per 100,000 adults, ten to fifty times the rate in the United States today." (27) But, "As soon as political stability was established on a contested frontier, . . . rates for all typs of homicide fell. Annual rates ranged from 9 per 100,000 adult colonists in New England to 20 to 40 per 100,000 in New France, New Netherlands, and the Chesapeake" "
Most of those murders weren't committed with guns, so she doesn't care about preventing those. Only *gun* violence matters, don't you know!
Also Wikipedia: times. The homicide rate has been estimated to be over 30 per 100,000 people in 1700, dropping to under 20 by 1800, and to under 10 by 1900.[9]
Where it drifted down to 5 and floated before climbing mildly until max at 10 around 1980, which is the point governemnt started dumping more into longer sentences, and soon, more policing, and it started coming back down to 5-ish.
And yes, it is hard to change the Constitution. Letting the power hungry add to their power at their whim didn't work out so well for freedom. This isn't a bug, it's a feature.
It also ignores the rampant gun violence during an active rebellion just ten years prior, and which they surely could imagine.
This is simple. Following tradition and text, 18 year-olds should be allowed to keep and bear...muskets.
Maybe its my Dyslexia, more common in Southpaws BTW, but I would have sworn it protected the right to keep and arm Bears.
Really difficult concealing a Grizzly though,
Frank
Following that "logic", the first amendment doesn't cover computers and the internet. You only have a 1st amendment interest in quill pens and manually type-set printing presses.
Damn straight. Article V is there for a reason! If "speech" and "the press" was supposed to include computers and the internet, they would have used different words!
It is the logic of textualists and originalists - who insist on rigid adherence to that logic until it leads to unacceptable consequences, whereupon the case is altered. That's why Breyer is honest and Scalia was not.
What is this? A strawman "strawman" argument? Double negatives make a positive...
Not a strawman at all. The argument goes that the Constitution should be read using the meaning of words at the time it was written. Scalia, for example, has been very clear that "cruel and unusual" means what was cruel and unusual at the time of the passage of the BoR, and is not to be determined by evolving standards of decency. But when it comes to arms, somehow that principle no longer applies.
You are apparently arguing that because hanging is now considered Cruel and Unusual punishment, that somehow, with more guns than ever, guns should be banable, despite the 2nd Amdt?
With the breakdown in policing, and esp in sentencing, gun ownership is more popular than probably ever in this country. It’s only in certain populations of well protected upper middle and upper class people, and esp in academia, that gun ownership has become unpopular. Of course, that’s long been the case, with the better protected trying to disarm the less well protected, whether they be Irish and Italians during the 19th Century, Blacks in the South during Jim Crow, etc.
Which is to say that your original premise is wrong - that the general sentiment in this country has moved against gun ownership. As a ratio of guns to population, we are probably at its highest point in our history, with more than one gun per person, as contrasted to one gun per adolescent or adult male (or female head of household) in Colonial days outside cities.
Methinks Sarcastr0, SRG2, JasonT20, et al have a very poor understanding of what originalists actually believe and the reasoning originalists actually follow.
And cannon, and warships, and any other arms useable by a militia, when formed.
Hmm, the 2nd Amendment should cover weapons that are used in warfare by groups of men, yet it is still an individual right not tied to service in a militia?
Because of the original purposes of the 2nd Amdt was to make sure that we had a militia of the citizenry capable of rallying to the defense of the country, as they did in Concord, Lexington, and surrounding countryside, in 1775. Notably, the British expedition that these militias eventually put to flight had been launched to seize or destroy the cannon, shells, and powder of these militias. These weren’t individual self defense weapons, but rather heavier arms. And, indeed, the heaviest arms of the day, including warships, were in private hands, and used for a common defense.
WRONG, the founding fathers' argument in passing 2A was clear. There was no consideration that "Arms" should be held by all top protect themselves and their property. That was a GIVEN.
And the question of bearing arms in military was necessity. To bear arms against an invading enemy of the federation was also a GIVEN.
The argument that convinced the exact words of 2A was also CLEAR, that it is necessary that the PEOPLE are never afraid of the GOVERNMENT, but that the GOVERNMENT should fear the people. The purpose for 2A is to REMIND all government agents that the PEOPLE can and should do as the founding fathers did when they find themselves tread upon as the founding fathers were.
Today, more and more, every day, the people are fearing the government and its actions.
"Even if we limit ourselves to Founding-era sources, the panel failed to recognize that legislatures in that era were authorized to categorically disarm groups they reasonably judged to pose a particular risk of danger,"
So she is saying that colonial era laws prohibiting arms to Blacks and Indians are still good law?
No. She is saying they, along with other disarmament laws, were constitutional
Yeah, at a time before the 14th amendment, when the 2nd amendment didn't apply to the states.
Other countries consider this whole historical analysis bullshit madness, in light of current realities, and they are correct.
What are those "current realities" and why should they matter more than the traditional/historical understanding of the right to keep and bear arms in the United States?
I believe that captcrisis is arguing against the heavy reliance on historical analysis by judges in deciding so many cases and issues of law, not just regarding gun control. That is a view I share. The conservative legal movement to rely on "history and tradition" in constitutional analysis has always been transparent in its agenda to bake conservative outcomes into such analyses. That much is easy to see when the Supreme Court insists on using those methods in cases with strong ideological implications and the past can be made to serve the desired outcome, but doesn't bother with it if it doesn't serve the desired outcome.
The very idea that government power can be limited by an agreement on paper necessitates a "conservative" approach to interpretation. Anything else and you don't have a constitution.
The very idea that government power can be limited by an agreement on paper necessitates a “conservative” approach to interpretation. Anything else and you don’t have a constitution.
You are taking a common, general meaning of the word "conservative" to be the same as what it means to be a "conservative" in modern American politics. They are not the same. To be politically conservative in the U.S. of today is to value limited government, individualism, and traditional social structures. A "conservative approach" means to be deliberate and consider things carefully and to not rush to a judgement based on whim. A conservative approach in that sense could result in judicial outcomes favorable to either side of the political spectrum.
Being rational, deliberate, and careful in judicial reasoning does not have to place historical understanding of a situation above current understanding and circumstances. Respecting the past and existing precedent when considering cases doesn't mean that the past and existing precedent is always correct.
A constitution that would have been expected by the Founders to mean the same thing to everyone in the country for over two centuries with only 27 Amendments (and the first 10 ratified in 2 years after the original Constitution itself) could not have been a short as the one we got. It would have needed to be far more detailed and leave a lot less open to interpretation in the first place.
I have yet to ever see any proponent of originalism show where the Founders expected something like originalism to determine how the Constitution should be always be interpreted. Instead, it seems a lot more likely that they expected and wanted the Constitution to be applied by each generation as that generation understood it, and that they expected the Constitution to be amended when the text could not be adapted to meet the challenges of the present circumstances at all.
Another meaning of "history and tradition" is precedent. It's odd (but not really) that people like you keep pretending these things are unknowable. Lawyers find/assert precedent all the time. Sometimes this history and tradition is the inverse of a legal case. This happens all the time in zoning disputes. If a local authority didn't enforce a particular restriction against my neighbor for years, they can't just start enforcing it now against me, not without some explaining. That's history and tradition.
Jason understands this. He just doesn't like the outcomes that the history and tradition lead to. It's fine when his side uses whatever motivated reasoning they want.
If a local authority didn’t enforce a particular restriction against my neighbor for years, they can’t just start enforcing it now against me, not without some explaining. That’s history and tradition.
What if the local authority had been enforcing a law in a particular manner for over a hundred years without any judicial review overruling it? But then, someone comes along and argues that what really matters is how people 200 years ago would have understood things, even though people then couldn't have possibly imagined the problems involved? The Heller majority sided with that perspective, when they decided that the 2nd Amendment had to be viewed as the Founders did, despite no federal courts using the 2nd Amendment to strike down federal gun regulations, ever, before that. Not to mention that their historical analysis in that case is hardly indisputable.
As to why "current realities" should matter more than history and tradition...
Current reality is what needs to be dealt with now, isn't it? If the courts were deciding mock trials over events of the past, then it would make perfect sense to use only the state of the law and society at the time of those events. But putting the conditions and prejudices of society in the past beyond living memory at the front and center of a case about living people in the present is kind of stupid, really.
People keep bringing up amending the Constitution, but the amendment process is deliberately difficult and requires a really broad consensus. That is very good in many ways, as no one would want it to be easy to change how the powers of government are divided between the branches, how office holders are elected, and so on. But it also greatly reduces the ability of government to adapt when it needs to.
With the Constitution being so difficult to amend, the Supreme Court has been charged with deciding when laws passed by Congress and actions of the Executive to adapt go too far. And that has been true for longer than any of us have lived, at least.
If anyone has a better idea on how to adapt the Constitution to dramatic changes in technology and society, I'd like to hear it.
No. Just no.
It's stupid because you don't like the outcomes. If you really have the support of the people, you should be able to get a broad enough consensus to pass an amendment. But half the country disagrees with your prescriptions. Alas.
The conservative justices don't always like the outcomes either. Which is why they don't use it all of the time.
If you really have the support of the people, you should be able to get a broad enough consensus to pass an amendment. But half the country disagrees with your prescriptions. Alas.
So, the Warren Court should have waited until there was enough of a consensus to outlaw segregation via an amendment and not have ruled as it did in Brown? Think about how that would work if you were in the minority on something and had to wait until you had convinced a majority of the legislators in 38 states to grant you your rights.
The traditional understanding of the Second Amendment has no relevance at all to our system of government, either state or federal. It is as much a dead letter as the Third.
Wait. Are you saying the government should be able to quarter troops in our homes in peacetime? Because that would be okay if the Third Amendment were dead.
That's like dismissing the Civil War amendments, because it's a been over a 150 years since the war, and it has no relevance today.
Of course, you would dispute that it has no relevance today. Just like some of us dispute you saying that the Second or Third have no relevance.
If any are truly irrelevant, then it should be no problem to repeal them. Just like the people trying to get a Citizens United exception to the First Amendment passed. Good luck!
But it's not fair that half of the country opposes their agenda and won't sign on to a Constitutional amendment!
"Other Countries" throw homosexuals from tall buildings, you're free to go to one anytime you wish (don't tell them you're homosexual)
Frank
Other countries have remained free at least partially because the US has remained so for centuries and both leads by example (how many have some kind of constitution now, and a judicial system not afraid to overrule Parliament, free speech in principle, though that’s foundered as of late as they adopt anti-harrassment stuff…from America! They don’t need no stinking First Amendment!) and in military domination making things futile to even bother trying. Of course, also from America, tyrant tanks rolling through Europe A-Ok!
What was my point again? Oh, yeah. A giant asteroid should smear this worthless planet from here to Uranus, which was, thank God, properly pronounced in 3 Body Problem!
I don’t see how having tens of thousands of gun deaths here makes other countries more safe.
The problem with this kind of thinking is it presupposes that restricting the ability of people to carry guns necessarily translates into less violent crime.
Sentiment is a terrible method of deciding if something is constitutional or not.
For some, that's all they've got.
Exactly.
I bet the gun grabbers would be surprised, if they looked at available data, at how many of these crimes are committed by people lawfully possessing the guns they are using. (Illegal transfers, repeat felons or minors)
I realize many are fixated on the fantasy of confiscation (not mere control/restrictions). That’s simply unworkable. For the very reason that exists now, that most of these crimes are not committed by those lawfully owning their arms.
I don’t think that the gun confiscators have any idea of how hard it would be. First, there are easily more guns in this country than people. Estimates range from 400-600 million firearms in this country. The number is increasing far faster these days than the population. Secondly, governments have no idea where the bulk of them are. If and when they can get ATF records (and currently, that’s difficult legally), they can maybe determine the first purchaser of a gun. Just not many subsequent owners of those guns. Most jurisdictions never imposed gun registration. There’s a running joke in the gun owning community about tragic boating accidents - which would be the excuse for not having the guns that the govt. thinks that they do, if they ever come to seize them.
And in extremis, by now, fearing gun seizures, there are likely millions of guns buried or otherwise hidden, around the country. Moreover, building your own guns has become easier and much more popular, starting with completing 80% complete AR-15s (and AR-10s), but also 80% complete Glocks, etc. Worse, the technology to build complete firearms from raw materials using CNC machines (etc) is becoming increasingly available. Ghost Gunner now provides equipment and programming to turn a solid block of aluminum into an AR receiver. I, along with probably millions others, have full schematics of the M16 assault rifle, allowing for relatively easy conversion to CNC (etc) programming. They are rarely utilized, because M16s are illegal, for the most part, to build, and most of the parts are easily acquired commercially, for decent prices.
The problem with this kind of thinking is it presupposes that restricting the ability of people to carry guns necessarily translates into less violent crime.
Less crime involving guns, you mean. That is the assumption, and it seems like a quite valid one considering the data comparing gun crime rates in the U.S. vs. other wealthy countries with more restrictions on gun ownership.
Sentiment is a terrible method of deciding if something is constitutional or not.
Sounds great. Now apply that to abortion. What is there arguing that abortion can be limited prior to viability other than sentiment wanting to 'save the babies'?
The problem with assuming that fewer guns would mean less gun crime is that there is no realistic way to seize a meaningful percentage of the 400-600 million guns in this country, without going door to door to seize them. And that, my dear readers, would almost assuredly result in the controversy going kinetic. The law enforcement detailed to go door to door would quickly start dying. And as quickly start refusing to do so.
Most guns in this country are owned by law abiding citizens, and are never used in the commission of a crime. But the rest are owned by criminals, who for the most part can’t legally possess firearms, but, of course do. Right now, we are seeing an interesting dynamic, with the drug and human smugglers smuggling fully automatic firearms into this country, where they are essentially illegal, and semiautomatic firearms back to Mexico, where they are illegal. And, if the gun laws aren’t going to be enforced against criminals possessing guns (and they aren’t, for the most part), then it’s suicidal for the otherwise law abiding to give up theirs, for protection against those criminals. Of course, as we have all seen in recent years, Defunding the Police, BLM, and deincarcerating criminals, has increased violence in the parts of the country practicing these policies, resulting in significant increase in the demand for firearms by the law abiding portion of the country, who are willing to engage in self help, if the state won’t perform their fundamental job of protecting them from criminals.
There are still a lot of people that don't own any guns. Pew Research Center reported in 2017 that 30% of adults in the U.S. personally own a gun, and another 11% that don't own a gun live with someone that does. That leaves 59% of adults living in a household without a gun. Most gun owners own more than one gun.
There are also disparities in the ownership of guns by partisanship, race/ethnicity, and geographically.
What some call the "gun culture" in the U.S. is really a subset of the population. Gun ownership has become a political identifier for some people more than it is about actual protection, though I am sure that they would say that protection is their main reason for owning a gun.
Where do criminals get guns? They get them from "law abiding" people. They either buy them from people legally permitted to buy and own guns, or they steal them from people legally permitted to buy and own guns. The more people buy and own guns legally, the easier it is for criminals to get guns.
The logical result of your thinking is to actually make it easier for criminals to get guns. "We [law abiding citizens] need guns to protect ourselves from the criminals that have guns, so we need few barriers to buying and owning them. If those low barriers to buying and owning guns mean that criminals will get them more easily as well, then we just need to get more guns!"
If they are old enough to fight and die for their country, they are old enough to bear the arms necessary to do so.
If they are old enough to be trusted to vote, they are more than old enough to be trusted to go armed.
If they are old enough to commit to a marriage contract, they are old enough to understand and abide by other contracts and laws, specifically including laws about not murdering people.
If they are old enough to be tried as an adult, they are old enough to be treated as an adult.
There are credible arguments about what the age of majority should be but once you make that decision, it should be the same decision across the board.
There are credible arguments about what the age of majority should be but once you make that decision, it should be the same decision across the board.
The preceding arguments seem to be your reasoning for why this is true.
If they are old enough to fight and die for their country, they are old enough to bear the arms necessary to do so.
Old enough to bear the arms necessary to do so as order to while under the supervision of more experienced soldiers and officers. Old enough after substantial training in their use, safe handling, and maintenance. Old enough to follow regulations and orders on how to store them, when to carry them, and when to use them. They are not given full autonomy on these things.
If they are old enough to be trusted to vote, they are more than old enough to be trusted to go armed.
Uh, I don't see any connection between these things. The arguments for the 26th Amendment went in the other direction - that being eligible to be drafted into the armed forces and sent to fight was what meant that they had a right to vote for the people that would order a draft and send them to fight. And the connection between military use of guns and civilian use of guns is addressed above.
If they are old enough to commit to a marriage contract, they are old enough to understand and abide by other contracts and laws, specifically including laws about not murdering people.
Again, you aren't providing any reason to connect these things to possessing a gun. In fact, the only thing that connects to them being old enough to understand and obey laws against murdering people is the first part of what you state next:
If they are old enough to be tried as an adult, they are old enough to be treated as an adult.
Treating all people of a certain age as being an adult with equal rights and responsibilities in all respects under the law is not something that has been true in any democratically governed country, as far as I can tell. And you've provided little reasoning to support your claim that it should be so.
It was not a constitutional argument (nor was it claimed to be).
But it was a good argument. Votes, sex, contracts, drugs, guns: adult (should) mean adult.
But it was a good argument.
I am saying that it is not a good argument, because so little was presented that connects "Votes, sex, contracts, drugs, guns" in a way that supports "adult (should) mean adult."
It's generally little more than ipse dixit.
Idiot.
There was a helluva lot more violence in 1791 than now.
And they did NOT bind future generations to their view of the world. There's an amendment procedure. Your failure to scare the populace into following your hoplophobia is your failure, not the founders'.
This is about a law, passed by the representatives elected by the populace.
And no, the Constitution did not set forth a 1700s system of morality, expecting the difficult amendment process to be used regularly as the only way the country could modernize it’s founding document.
That is a fiction created by politicians about 40 years ago to allow legal outcomes they wanted.
That does not mean all originalism is bunk, but your hidebound version sure is. You take the Founders for impractical morons.
That does not mean all originalism is bunk, but your hidebound version sure is.
Totally. I would never say that historical understanding and application of the Constitution should be ignored. I think that it should never be the one thing that overrides other ways of considering a case.
“In the exposition of laws, and even of Constitutions, how many important errors may be produced by mere innovations in the use of words and phrases, if not controlled by a recurrence to the original and authentic meaning attached to them!”
-James Madison
"Originalis thinking started in the 1980's" is a recent invention of diaper-soiling liberals who are mad at the recent conservative bent of the SC, and are actively trying to delegitimize them. It's absolute rubbish.
"Originalism" is just how old documents are normally read, unless you have some meaning you're absolutely determined to "find" regardless of what they really mean. It just didn't need a name until living constitutionalism staked the claim that judges should be doing something else, instead.
At least, I'd say that's how it started out. There has been a lot of backsliding since, as practicing originalists, confronted with just how deeply entrenched living constitutionalist precedents are at this point, suffer from failures of nerve, and start looking for excuses to pretend those precedents are now legitimate.
Rather than just admitting that getting the law to an entirely legitimate state is probably impossible at this point. Not that it ever was entirely legitimate, so why does this daunt them?
If you object to the concept of a "constitution", just admit it. Yes, it has consequences. This is one of them.
Fuck off. I'm a big fan of the Constitution.
Disagreeing with your take is not hating the Constitution, don't wrap your personal take in the American Flag.
Fuck off yourself. You read things into and out of the Constitution to suit your preferred policy outcomes all the time. Then you accuse others of doing the same.
You hidebound caricature is a straw man of originalism.
You are blinded by the constitutional politicized lawlessness that started with the New Deal and peaked with the Warren Court. Because those decisions gave you the outcomes you wanted, without any concern whether they were justified by original public meaning or precedent. (Not every significant decision of that era was bad/wrong, but the constitutional trend was terrible.)
The major problem originalism faces now is how much correction can be done in the face of some egregious precedents we’ve been living with. According to Living Constitutionalism, stare decisis is a one way ratchet, a defense of politically favored outcomes and a cudgel to use against those trying undo the damage (Roe vs Dobbs).
Thanks for telling me how outcome oriented I must be.
Because you? You're pure as the driven snow in your motives.
Ad hominem is all heat, no light.
I'd say the major problem originalism faces is that it started as a political project, unmoored from actual history or judicial philosophy.
It therefore picked up an 'agree with my take or you hate America' bit of nonsense that is perhaps it's greatest flaw - it doesn't care to engage with other methods of jurisprudence, which will keep it from really maturing as a methodology (see, by contrast, textualism in statutory interpretation which is now well integrated up and down the political spectrum).
Scholars have been going back and adding factual foundations and philosophical clarity for decades now. And they've come up with something even my non-originalist self find to be useful and interesting.
But the people around here? You included, too many are just true believer in the rhetorical version of originalism. With a healthy dollop of 'Area man passionate defender of what he believes the Constitution to say.'
Lol. Sarcastr0 calling someone out for ad hominems? I'd be shocked at the hypocrisy if it didn't happen all the time.
Please tell me how the Warren Court followed a consistent judicial philosophy that wasn't entirely outcome oriented. Tell me how it wasn't the same sort of purely political project you accuse originalism of being. I have the strange sense I'll be waiting forever.