The Volokh Conspiracy
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Journal of Free Speech Law: "Public Health Law's Digital Frontier: Addictive Design, Section 230, and the Freedom of Speech," by Prof. Matthew Lawrence
The article is here; the Abstract:
A new generation of claims argues that addictive design by social media companies has caused a national mental health crisis, and so seeks to join nascent state legislative efforts in making addictive design by technology companies public health law's next frontier. But the threshold, global objections of leading social media platforms (including Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Tik Tok, and YouTube) to pioneering addictive design tort lawsuits—In re Social Media Adolescent Addiction Litigation in federal court and the Social Media Cases in California—suggest that state authority to regulate addictive design (through litigation or otherwise) will depend on the resolution of a conflict between two regulatory paradigms: the public health regulatory paradigm and the internet regulatory paradigm. The public health paradigm prizes federalism, with states historically playing a lead role in safeguarding the public's health through law—including against unwitting exposure to addictive products. Under this paradigm states would be permitted to develop and implement legal responses to an emerging public health threat through their courts and legislatures, as they have done with alcohol, gambling, opioids, and tobacco. The internet paradigm, on the other hand, usually insists on a "hands off" approach to regulation online, with broad federal preemption under section 230 of the Communications Decency Act and often-prohibitive constraints under the First Amendment.
In the pioneering cases, the platforms argue that the internet paradigm makes pending lawsuits asserting addictive design claims non-starters, regardless of their merits. On the section 230 and First Amendment legal theories they advance, states could not regulate content-related addictive design by providers of interactive computer services (including social media platforms and some online video game manufacturers), no matter the evidence and no matter how intentional, effective, or harmful to kids or adults. Not surprisingly, the plaintiffs offer alternative views that would permit broad state regulation of addictive design.
This Article argues that, even if courts are unpersuaded by the broadest arguments in favor of a public health approach to regulation of addictive design, they should nonetheless reject the platforms' efforts to make addictive design a public-health-law-free zone. The public health and internet paradigms can be reconciled as a policy matter because addictive design threatens both public health and innovation online. The public health and internet paradigms can also be reconciled as a legal matter because even strong theories of section 230 and the First Amendment, properly understood, leave states a safe harbor in which to regulate much addictive design. Addictive design claims allege platforms engage in what psychologists call "operant conditioning" by using content-neutral intermittent reinforcement and variable reward techniques associated with slot machines to foster compulsion in users. These techniques need not entail content moderation or "editorial expression"; indeed, such techniques are ordinarily hidden from users, who may never realize they have been conditioned by a provider. State regulation of such content-neutral platform activity is not insulated from state public health regulation even under broad theories of the reach of section 230 and the First Amendment. To make maximal use of this safe harbor, public health researchers studying the harms of addictive design, legislators devising tailored regulatory responses, and courts adjudicating novel addictive design claims should remain mindful of the value of separating content-based addictive design claims from conditioning-based claims made in advancing public health law's digital frontier.
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As not a lawyer, I’ve been curious about the scientific and evidentiary standards regarding the “addictive design” claims. Can states regulates this based on vibes alone? What are the actual requirements for evidence? OTOH, I’d hate to think that what is required will be years longs absolutely conclusive studies that will never be performed.
And my question is just not about addictive design, but about the whole host of claims often laid out by Jonathan Haidt how social media is bad for our kids (if not ourselves).
I largely agree with Haidt but wonder how that would get treated in court without incredibly solid evidence that I doubt we'll ever really have.
The very idea of some new First Amendment category for “addictive designs” is preposterous. Addictive designs hardly began with social media, or even with computers. TV shows have “addictive designs”, commercials have “addictive designs”, even the packaging on snack food has “addictive designs.” Somehow the people like Paul Renner who suggest a new First Amendment category for “addictive designs” only apply it to social media.
And, God, this article cites “public health” to justify social media laws? Excuse me, but after COVID lockdowns, I want to throw up whenever I hear “public health” being used to justify anything.
I’m kind of amazed that Eugene found this to be a respectable enough article that he posted it on here. No, Eugene didn’t say he agreed with the article, but he presumably wouldn’t have posted the article on here if he found it to be totally ridiculous.
I don't have a problem with this, and the reason why I don't is that it is the logical extension of the therapeutic nanny state that should have had an ash stake driven through its heart long before now.
So now they are tangling with those with the means to fight back.
More popcorn, please....
Popcorn lung, anyway.
Indeed; the entire thing is a combination of junk science and tendentious nonsense. The use of the term "addictive" is meant to evoke some sort of medical condition, but all it means when you strip away the dysphemism is "They make it so that people want to use it a lot." Which is not a rationale for circumventing the first amendment.
Indeed. Facebook seems to me to be a lot like potato chips or Lucky Charms: it's probably best if consumed only in limited quantities, but that is best accomplished by self control for adults and parental control for minors, rather than governmental control.
A graphic warning label might be appropriate, though 🙂
What if these companies, tech and food ones, are intentionally engineering their products to exploit our biological systems to create real physiological addictions. An actual disease state?
Shouldn't the least we do is regulate it with regards to exposure to children?
We don't let tobacco companies advertise or sell to children.
What if that's just a malicious analogy being used to justify violating a basic civil right?
Are you familiar with the phrases "Attention Engineering" and "Attention Economy"?
We are assured with some vehemence that merely exposing children to men in women's clothes and texts that include lgtbq content is enough to groom them into transness, and books with black characters and films with diverse characters groom them into wokeness.
Nige, the Rubicon was crossed with the ban on Joe Camel.
That's when children stopped being groomed into thinking they were camels. A dark day indeed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JoeCamel.jpg
Brett, what about the basic civil rights of tobacco companies?
First they were banned on radio & TV. Then they were banned from everywhere else -- from billboards to grocery store shopping carts. Grocery stores with a pharmacy (which most do) aren't even allowed to *sell* cigarette lighters, let alone cigarettes.
That's when the Rubicon was crossed, and I can see no logical justification for not extending that nanny state principle here.
No one has rights in the therapeutic state....
I don’t know how much tobacco companies are really legally handcuffed in advertising and how much they just can’t get any TV station to carry their ads because it would be terrible public relations for the TV station. (The latter scenario would just be the free market in action and not at all contrary to libertarianism.) But, in any case, comparing the dangers of smoking to the dangers of posting on the internet just shows how retarded you are.
Banned by Federal law since 1971.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Cigarette_Smoking_Act
“Facebook seems to me to be a lot like potato chips or Lucky Charms: it’s probably best if consumed only in limited quantities”
I might add VC comment sections to this list
Indeed. Facebook seems to me to be a lot like potato chips or Lucky Charms: it’s probably best if consumed only in limited quantities, but that is best accomplished by self control for adults and parental control for minors, rather than governmental control.
Obesity rates in the US would seem to suggest that this is false.
You may have missed this development, but large numbers of people have found that "self control" is such an unreliable means of achieving moderation that they are now turning to drugs designed to make them feel less hungry, whose long-term effects are largely untested.
They "turned to drugs" 70 years ago -- it was only by accident that mixed amphetamine salts then being used were found to help ADHD.
But your advocacy for governmental control is fascist.
It is perhaps not surprising that you've interpreted my simple observation of reality as tantamount to endorsing government control. With all things MAGA, the only permitted facts are the ones that have been ideologically approved.
But no, I am not in fact making an argument in favor of government control. Just noting that "self control" doesn't really work, if the policy goal is less of an addictive activity.
And which widespread use for that purpose makes it harder to procure for those of us who need it for diabetes, its ostensible purpose.
Weight loss has become another thing you can literally consume.
You like Grand Funk Railroad before you like Bach
You like Peanuts before you appreciate Gustav Dore
You eat Doritos long before you like truffles
And you hate beer and cigarettes as a kid
Only the good drives out the bad. ONLY
There's no question there is a mental health crisis, when 40% or so of the population believes that the 2020 election was stolen, that global warming is a hoax, etc. These are the equivalent of the beliefs in past eras that the moon landing was a hoax, that fluoridation was a Communist plot, that we are being controlled by unseen bankers in a lead-lined bunker in Switzerland . . . when I was in the mental health field, these were characteristic signs of paranoid schizophrenia. In the DSM-III (at the time) the code was 290.10.
You have shown signs too of mental stress. Take a few days off and get plenty of sunshine and love, stay hydrated, eat plenty of fruits and vegetables, and NO seed oils or nuts.
Seed oils!
It was stooen,and global warming is not a hoax (that shows you know neither side of the argument) but it is not a problem
And this post , from long experience of you and your type, is just a shallow form of 'Please love me because I am smarter than at least 40% of the population, please
You are BATHETIC (yes, bathetic, not pathetic)
'but it is not a problem'
There are people desperately trying to get fire or flood insurance that disagree.
The fact that the 2020 election results lack credibility with 40% of the population is an indication of how incompetent & corrupt the schmucks running the elections have become. It really doesn't matter if it was actually stolen or just so poorly conducted that it is impossible to tell that it wasn't -- it's largely a distinction without a difference when election "results" have to be enforced at gunpoint.
The government itself doesn't believe that the election was legitimate -- that's why we have seen such persecution (not prosecution) of the Jan 6th Frat Party. If Team Brandon were secure in the legitimacy of their purported victory, they'd be magnanimous in victory and not taking the scorched earth approach they are.
As to Global Cooling, aka Global Warming, aka Global Climate Change, I'd have more faith in the religious concept if they could just make up their minds about which one it is.... There's more evidence that the 2020 election was rigged than there is for the Goddess CO2 and I'm just calling for the same standard of proof.
As to Fluoridation, we once used something known as Asbestos for everything including toothpaste, and lined our drinking water pipes with lead (many of which are still in use), and this was only 60-70 years ago. More recently, we forced the oil companies to add MBTE to gasoline -- MBTE is water soluble and quickly got into the water table, causing nightmares for places depending on wells for water.
And my personal favorite was the glass jar full of Carbon Tetrachloride used as an automatic fire extinguisher on boats (and elsewhere). The heat of the fire would shatter the glass container and the Carbon Tetrachloride would extinguish the fire -- and any human life present as well. So would I be surprised to learn that putting Floride into our drinking water actually wasn't a good idea -- statistically speaking, no I wouldn't.
And as to the DSM, which is nothing more than a popular vote amongst Voodoo Scientists who are themselves mentally ill, may I remind you that the more recent DSM IV-IR considered trannys to be mentally ill (and some of us still do).
There were tranny activists on the relevant DSM committees.
So they literally had mentally ill people writing the rules for mentally ill people.
Neither being a trans person nor having a mental illness preclude a person from being a medical expert.
No, that's true. It would just preclude them being a reliable medical expert on matters relating to their mental illness.
No. It would not. This is like saying a medical professional who had their appendix removed wouldbe precluded from being reliable medical experts on appendix removal. If anything their experiences of medical and health treatments for their seperate but often co-morbid conditions would provide valuable insights.
Try those who refused to have their appendix removed and are dying with a high fever. I'm sure such persons would be the most rational medical experts...
What about those who passed laws against having appendixes removed because appendix removal was a dangerous cult that groomed chldren into thinking the agonising pain in their sides was their appendix bursting?
The better example is how homosexuality got removed from the DSM III -- there was no scientific breakthrough or even a consensus of change -- instead it was in response to terrorism. The gay activists threatened to disrupt the APA convention if they didn't, and the APA didn't have the courage to deal with the disruptive mentally ill.
Their was no terrorism, of course, not even the threat of terrorism.
"So would I be surprised to learn that putting Floride (sic) into our drinking water actually wasn’t a good idea — statistically speaking, no I wouldn’t."
You'll be really shocked to find out about the compound of poison gas and flammable metal that most people have right in their kitchen!
And did you know that carrots are made with the same elements as cobra venom!
But cobra venom must be good for you, because it is all-natural and organic, so there's that.
Speaking of fire safety, hydrogen+oxygen is extremely flammable, so never put any compounds of those two on fires, I don't care what the so-called 'experts' say.
(note that I'm not arguing that fluoridating water is or isn't smart; I'm saying the level of analysis you are doing is chemical malpractice)
I assume you mean sodium chloride and not some of the things some people have in their kitchens.
Heck, aluminum is a flammable metal -- not as flammable as sodium but aluminum foil will burn.
And I’m saying science has been wrong before.
It works a lot better if you try to burn powdered Aluminum as opposed to foil. Surface area is a thing.
Oh hey, I've done that! A few pounds of thermite is a great party trick. At least at the sort of parties I go to here in Wisconsinland.
"And I’m saying science has been wrong before."
And it's been right a few times as well, which is why you aren't living in a cave.
That someone won the lottery doesn't imply that buying lottery tickets is a good way to provide for your retirement, unless you like cat food.
addictive design ?
It's called marketing.
Yeah, and I’m kind of amazed by these arguments that social media should be judged by a different First Amendment standard than any other kind of marketing just because it’s newer. Well, actually, social media isn’t that new at this point, which makes these law proposals even goofier.
It’s especially weird how nobody in the world suggested these anti-social media laws until 2023-24, and all of a sudden a whole lot of these bills get suggested. If bills like Paul Renner’s bill in Florida had ever been proposed, I would have thought the bills would have been proposed in something like 2007, not 2024. In 1973, the controversy over rock n’roll was basically over, and people sure as hell weren’t proposing even more draconian restrictions on rock n’roll than anybody proposed in 1957.
The idea of a separate First Amendment category for “addicting” speech? Oh, please, if you’re going to create that First Amendment category, can you please ban almost every commercial on TV? Those commercials are also meant to be addicting, and I hate those commercials far more than I hate social media.
Yeah, and I’m kind of amazed by these arguments that social media should be judged by a different First Amendment standard than any other kind of marketing just because it’s newer.
Orange, I share that amazement, but maybe extend it a bit farther than you would care to do. Are you open on that basis to consider repeal of Section 230? It is, after all, an assertion that internet publishing deserves a different First Amendment standard just because it's newer.
Section 230 is on the books because internet sites do not have any control over what comments their users make. This contrasts to a newspaper, where a newspaper can even decide what letters to the editorial board they want to publish, let alone everything else in the newspaper. Without Section 230, websites would be forced to carefully edit and make decisions about whether to accept or reject user’s comments, similar to a newspaper.
A poster on a Libertarian website suggesting repealing Section 230, which is the only thing allowing you to post on this website. Good Lord.
You can simultaneously support Section 230 and also believe that people have freedom to read “addicting” content on the internet.
Section 230 is on the books because internet sites do not have any control over what comments their users make.
That would be news to the hoards of MAGAs yowling about heavy-handed control of their social media posts.
A poster on a Libertarian website suggesting repealing Section 230, which is the only thing allowing you to post on this website. Good Lord.
Commenters who have been contributing on the VC since its early days remember when it was a more heavily moderated site. You will be hard pressed to find any among those who do not think that it was a better site in those days.
It was that early policy and business practice of moderating comments which put the VC on the map. That policy won the VC regard among the legal community which it now struggles even to maintain.
The VC continues today on the basis mostly of institutional momentum. Once-successful publications which fall under bad management tend to be hard to kill; a well-established publishing audience can be a surprisingly durable asset, declining only slowly during years of neglect.
When I discovered the VC I thought—on the basis of previous successes of my own in periodical publishing—that the VC had demonstrated a much-needed sweet spot to model what internet publishing could be. I had no doubt then that if that version of the VC were managed with an eye to making money, instead of for more purely ideological purposes, it could have been notably expanded.
It could have thus served not only the proprietors’ ideological purposes, but also become a model for how to do journalism on the internet to serve 3 purposes simultaneously: to serve as an advocate; to create a respected news source with a much larger audience than it has ever actually enjoyed; and to make a lot of money.
The VC has instead turned into a squandered opportunity, largely because it has been neither edited prior to publication, nor rigorously-enough moderated afterward. An opportunity has thus gone a glimmering to create a chain of similarly constructed online publications, based on edited and moderated commentary in other professional fields. Success of that sort would have opened the question whether even more-general news coverage based on information gathering could have been revived on a similar basis.
Also, your commentary marks you as an internet utopian, and typical of the breed. Internet utopians make extravagant personal expressive ambitions the only standard by which they evaluate internet publishing questions. Those are in fact more complicated than internet utopians suppose.
Internet utopians, more or less uniformly, demand as a matter of right to be afforded power to publish world-wide, at no cost, anonymously, anything at all. They demand to publish without regard to truth, without regard to defamatory content, without regard to public policy, without regard to damage to the public life of the nation, without regard to advertiser tolerance, without regard to a publisher’s indispensable need to curate and maintain audience. And they demand to do it all free of prior editing or post-publishing constraint.
That is ambition for personal publishing power far beyond anything the world’s most powerful institutional publishers have ever enjoyed. No one in the history of publishing has ever enjoyed any such comic-book-style publishing super powers. No one on earth, and no government or corporation either, has capacity to deliver any such vision to internet utopians, or even to seize such outlandishly imagined powers for themselves.
Finally, you probably have little notion of the scale of resources which publishing online puts at the disposal of would-be publishing businesses. Consider that Facebook, which edits almost nothing it publishes, has an annual U.S. operating budget more than 40 times greater than the entire operating budget of the New York Times, which edits essentially everything it publishes.
Consider that in its heyday, the Los Angeles Times published on paper and distributed weekly a Sunday edition with an aggregate weight approximately equal to that of a U.S. Navy cruiser. It did that in addition to publishing and distributing 6 daily editions each week. All those expenses for paper, printing, and distribution went away when internet publishing replaced ink on paper.
Consider that that cost reduction happened among newspapers everywhere. A fraction of those avoided costs would have paid for—and could still pay for—pre-publication editing of essentially everything which gets published online.
And lest you object that editing would tyrannize the expressive ambitions of internet utopians, consider how little most internet utopians have to say, or, more charitably, how modest their ambitions are. Most of what they want published amounts to no more than opinions, which by law do not create defamation liability. Only a tiny fraction amounts to actually researched and reported factual assertions, which do require editorial vetting (or would require it absent Section 230), but even most of those are anodyne, and clearly present no risk of defamation.
That points toward two commonly-overlooked conclusions. First, that opinions, however controversial, can be recognized and approved for publication at high rates and with great editorial efficiency. And second, that an online publisher ambitious to build audience to enable advertising sales, will have more reason to approve expressions of opinion than to disregard them. It is a happy day when threats of tyranny are opposed by the profit motive.
The economies afforded by the switch from publishing on paper to publishing online could have been managed to afford the nation, including internet utopians, a more diverse and profuse choice of publishing opportunities than it now has. It was Section 230, with its suspension of any practical requirement even to read content prior to publication, which opened the door to internet giantism, which vexes so many today.
Under that giantistic model, the vast savings afforded by internet publishing methods have gone not to increase expressive freedom, nor to diversify publishing opportunities, but instead mostly to deliver unprecedented publishing profits to an astonishingly small coterie of entrepreneurs. Those now sit astride choke points in public discourse.
Under 1A protection, which the nation cannot afford to abandon, that coterie remains free to manage public discourse to suit whatever narrow interests the narrowness of the word, “coterie,” suggests. That is the principle malign consequence the immensely consequential blunder to pass Section 230 has inflicted. Repeal of Section 230 is the necessary first step toward a better-adapted online publishing regime.
No point in responding to the bulk of your cut-and-pasted many-times-refuted I-once-published-a-newspaper-so-I-understand-the-Internet screed, but this is a simple error so I thought I'd highlight it:
Facebook publishes orders of magnitude more than 40 times the content of the New York Times.
Not thoughtful, Nieporent. You misconstrued the point of my comparison, maybe on purpose, or maybe just trying to emulate Bellmore's habit to suppose whatever strikes you as plausible must be fact.
You already know I am talking about much smaller social media platforms, doing business in much greater profusion. I have said diversity and profusion are the right correctives for internet giantism. I have said that again and again, as you know.
Today's Facebook, at today's scale, is thus an irrelevance to anything I discuss, except insofar as I discuss getting rid of such giants. They will not be the basis for any editing comparison I will make.
I made the operating budget comparison simply to challenge the habitual tic of internet utopians to posit vastly greater efficiency for internet publishing by their favorite giants, without regard or notice that other publishers can avail themselves of the same internet methods, and thus reap similar efficiencies.
You also overlooked that the fraction of NYT operating expense devoted to editing public contributions is minuscule. Certainly less than 1%. So your straight-up comparison of entire budget multiples is just carelessness. Carelessness doubled, when you consider that Facebook barely edits at all, and would have to vastly increase its operating budget if repeal of Section 230 required it to do so.
Currently, no straight-up comparisons between such contrasting business models—one with prior editing, vs. one without—are even possible. What you can reasonably do is hypothesize the larger player broken into smaller bits numbering however many it would take to do a comparable amount of business as the unbroken behemoth. And then use the experiences of another business which practices prior editing to estimate comparable costs based on a premise that each avails itself of comparable internet efficiencies. That would yield not much more than a rough guess at actual magnitudes, but with a perfectly reasonable expectation of comparable efficiencies.
The question whether to restore by legal policy a practical requirement for editing published content prior to publication will be decided on other grounds than spurious suppositions about efficiency differences. We know for certain that whatever efficiency levels turn out to be, with or without prior editing, they will be notably better than they were in the days of ink-on-paper publishing, and those supported a thriving, diverse, various, and mutually-competitive publishing industry which was accounted an ornament to the public life of the nation.
We can thus make policy choices about prior editing secure in the knowledge that efficiency considerations will not prove salient. The right focus for discussion ought to be public costs and public benefits of each policy, considered in the broadest possible context.
Lathrop, 3/24/24, c 8 a.m. EDT
Lathrop, 3/24/24, c 10:30 p.m. EDT:
Nieporent, I take it that you think you demonstrate a contradiction in my commentary—while ignoring the remark I made above to anticipate your oh-so-predictable tic before you got to it.
I invite bystanders who want to judge whether you make sense to read my comments in full. They make a lot more sense than Nieporent's ideology-addled critiques can afford to admit.
Nieporent, why don't you lighten your burden and stop stalking my comments. You bring neither insight, nor even any variety to your misunderstandings.
You know little or nothing about the underlying subject matter—about what the practical requirements are to accomplish publishing, and why accurate consideration of those is necessary to any discussion of press freedom. Indeed, you even resist the notion that press freedom is a thing separate from speech freedom, despite their separate treatments in the Constitution. Accurate insight that those two separate components of expressive freedom exist in tension with each other seems to boggle your imagination.
You end up taking positions of your own which are constructively: pro-defamation; pro-fraud; pro-platform-giantism; and anti-marketplace of ideas. For practical publishing reasons you resist understanding, the notion seems beyond you that a public life of discussion to inform politics and policy requires more than a seething mess of calumny, lies, election frauds, purposeful sabotage, deep fake deceptions, and defamation-for-profit business models.
Take a break and think it over.
"I invite bystanders who want to judge whether you make sense to read my comments in full."
Invitation accepted...............ok, done ... you are posting blather again.
I'm recalling whatever commenting system here that had up and down votes. You'd post something like this, get 27 down votes, and then you'd post "Why doesn't everyone realize how right I am?"
Mr. Nieporent points out your errors because, well, they are errors.
You've actually got that backwards, you know that? The reason newspapers are liable for content is BECAUSE they carefully edit, and make decisions about whether to accept or reject user comments, which means that having chosen their content, they are responsible for it.
Prior to Section 230, internet platforms could escape any liability for content by the simple expedient of not doing that sort picking and choosing. If they DIDN'T moderate content, they were not responsible for it, they were just passive conduits for the people who generated the content and were responsible for it.
So you had very small, selective platforms, which got away with intense moderation because they controlled who used them, and you had large, inclusive platforms, that almost totally refrained from moderation.
It's Section 230 of the "Communications Decency Act", it was written to encourage and enable platforms to do more moderation, take more editorial control away from users, in order to suppress content they find, "obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable".
Only the courts up and took that "or otherwise objectionable", and transformed Section 230 into a complete grant of total editorial control, divorced from responsibility for the resulting content. And once platforms gained a serious degree of market power, they ran with that.
Back to Reason: Reason's virtually unmoderated, except for removing spam, comments, would not go away without Section 230. They are the very model of pre-230 moderation policies.
It's outfits like FB, relentlessly moderating on the basis of politics, but leaving defamatory or threatening content in place if they like the politics, that would be in trouble. Reason would hardly notice Section 230 going away.
“Section 230 is on the books because internet sites do not have any control over what comments their users make.”
That’s not why it was written — remember that it is part of the Communications Decency Act (which SCOTUS gutted on First Amendment grounds).
Section 230 was an “in case you screw up” protection — they were explicitly required to remove anything “obscene” by other provisions of the act, and Section 230 was to both protect them if they missed something, or if they removed something that actually wasn’t obscene under whatever “community standards” they might be held to. Remember that this was back in the ’90s when there wasn’t a national definition of “obscene” and what clearly was obscene in Peoria definitely wasn’t in Provincetown.
The status of the law at the time was that there were specific works (e.g. movies) which were ruled to either be or not be obscene in specific communities. For example, the movie Deep Throat had been ruled *not* obscene in Cambridge, Massachusetts — which is why it was used to challenge a MIT policy on obscenity. See: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1987/12/5/a-younger-dershowitz-argues-porn-case/
Section 230 was a response to the legitimate “how the hell are we supposed to enforce” the CDA that was raised by bulletin board operators such as AOL, and the intent of Section 230 (as I remember it) was that a good faith effort would be good enough.
The CDA was not only unconstitutional but quite controvercial, a lot of people (including myself) set our web pages to 000000 (that’s hexadecimal for Black) in protest of it.
It was a different time, a different technology, and while we can argue the merits of something like Section 230, it was intended to be part of a quickly-overturned law that is no more.
And as to how times have changed -- at least half the country in 1994 would have considered trannies to be a violation of their community standards -- and the rest viewed them as freaks.
I'm still friends with Adam, we met at ye olde 'tvte circa 1988 when this was a recent thing (and when I started dating a woman on the same floor of the residence hall he lived in). He was a bit more positive about the elder Dersh than he is these days.
Stephen Lathrop: Noun, verb, section 230.
And you're addicted to it.
Lawyers, fresh off funneling billions into their pockets over tobacco, “Let’s get fatty salty food dollars from restaurants!”
Congress: Nope. That’s a bridge, and millions of voters, too far.
Lawyers: Hmmm. We are trying to help brain damage from the speech pocket-funnel escape the contained domains of school and business into the wild, where even bigger bucks for megayachts await. Maybe gigantic FANNG companies’ social media? Change the drumbeats!
It's just the latest in a long line of excuses for violating the 1st amendment.
"It's not speech, it's violence!"
"It's not speech, it's lies!"
"It's not speech, it's disinformation!"
"It's not speech, it's addictive!"
What do they mean by it being "addictive"? They mean it's speech that people actually listen to! Wow, that definitely creates a 1st amendment exception.
Bellmore, just to show you can do it, please explain the interaction between surveillance marketing and algorithmic news feeds which target individuals for personally tailored content. A few remarks about implications for the public life of the nation might also prove helpful.
Well, as has famously been said, "If you're not paying for it, you're not the customer, you're the product being sold."
I am not a big fan of the current model of content delivery on the internet. It is NOT designed with the interest of the end user in mind.
But none of this has any 1st amendment implications.
Bellmore, legal impositions which notably burden the business practices of publishers always have 1A implications. The question is more fraught whether those get legal recognition in politically attuned courts commanded by judges who understand the politics better than they understand the subject matter.
Stephen, a wise man once said that "Sunlight is the Best Disinfectant."
"Joe Camel" lost a lot of his effectiveness once it was publicly pointed out that he was a phallic object. Surveillance marketing and algorithmic news feeds aren't inherently bad once you know they exist -- and I figured it out damn fast when I started getting all kinds of ads for a specific auto part that I had been searching for.
....And the ads actually would have been helpful if they'd linked to vendors selling parts for Dodge Dakota pickup trucks, but they didn't. My issue was false advertising -- don't tell me you are selling something that you aren't.
But if I have to be protected from Joe Camel, then I also have to be protected from Farcebook as well.
I still recall how a forty-second tik-tok video sent conservatives off into weeks of rage and hate and weirdness. Weren't they worried that impressionable people might catch the woke mind virus off ads like that and get turned trans?
The problems blamed on addictive design were in my day caused by the devil's weed and that jungle bop. I can't remember a time when we didn't have trouble right here in River City.
That's the real point. There's nothing new under the sun. People have believed stupid shit from the beginning of people, with no help whatsoever from Facebook.
Nobody thinks this stuff was invented yesterday. They're just dealing with as it is today.
And doing it the same old way.
It's about time we stopped allowing the first amendment to hamstring the government with respect to mental heath.
People spouting ideas I disagree with are driving me crazy, and the government has a compelling interest to do something about it.
Well played, sir, well played.
"People spouting ideas I disagree with are driving me crazy"
At least it's a short trip. And when you get here, look me up, we'll do lunch. 🙂
For me "crazy" doesn't require a drive, just a short putt.
I mean, I think it's interesting that all the MAGA types are getting their panties in a twist over a proposal for regulating social media algorithms that has nothing to do, on its face, with actual content.
It's a bit like a bunch of Oxycontin abusers protesting efforts to more strictly regulate how drug companies market to doctors and end users. Oddly revealing.
It doesn’t look like many of the commenters here really understand what is happening.
Addictive design isn’t designs that happen to be addictive, addictive design is intentionally designing your system to cultivate addiction in your users/customers.
These organizations are intentionally creating a disease state in us and our children, who are even more susceptible, to increase revenues.
Is there a 1A right for a company to intentionally create products that cause harm?
Good God.
As much as I hated COVID lockdowns, at least the COVIDian crowd tried to justify those measures by claiming the measures stopped COVID, which is an actual tangible disease.
Using “trust the science” logic to justify measures that supposedly protect some completely intangible “mental health”? Frankly, this is even worse than COVID “science.”
I bet you're also the kind of guy that looks around at all of our current health crises, physical and mental, and think "People just don't have self control!"
As if humans had amazing self control for millennia, then just recently decided to collectively shrug it off.
Repeating the same silly premise doesn't make it less silly. There is no "disease state" or "addiction." It's just people liking the product and wanting to use it. Which I am pretty sure every business wants with respect to its customers.
And throwing the word "intentionally" in there doesn't add anything meaningful. If we actually were talking about a harmful product, then whether the product was intentionally designed to be harmful or whether it was accidentally designed to be harmful would be irrelevant. (It might speak to punitive damages in a lawsuit, but would not change whether regulation was appropriate in the first place.)
Are people who go bankrupt gambling merely liking the product and wanting to keep using it? What’s going on here seems to resemble compulsive gambling. After all, you could equally describe people addicted to heroin as just liking the product and wanting to keep using it.
Sure, you can argue that the definition of “disease” doesn’t or shouldn’t cover things like gambling or “addictive” computer games and such. But as occurs with so much false dichotomy rhetoric (which, by the way, is one of your specialties, you’ve been making these sorts of arguments for years), establishing that the issue doesn’t meet your definition of “disease” does not establish that there is no problem at all.
Fair enough, but consider this:
"Are people who eat Ben & Jerry's until they weigh 400 lbs. merely liking the product and wanting to keep using it? What’s going on here seems to resemble compulsive gambling. After all, you could equally describe people addicted to heroin as just liking the product and wanting to keep using it."
Ditto for people who just sit in front of the TV all day.
On the one hand, we'd absolutely be better off by eating more broccoli, exercising, watching less TV and Facebook, etc, etc. But do you mandate it?
IMHE everyone has a dangerous vice. Maybe they want to ride a motorcycle sans helmet. I like to go on long solo wilderness trips. I've known (tobacco) chain smokers who want marijuana banned. Booze was banned for a while, etc, etc. The general stance seems to be that my vices should be tolerated but other people's should be banned.
What's the moral justification for the chain smoker insisting on helmet laws?
"What’s the moral justification for the chain smoker insisting on helmet laws?"
Because you can't be charged with vehicular homicide if the other person lives. They know that they will be at fault in a collision with a motorcyclists (and in over 90% of collisions, the car was) so the helmet will prevent the biker from dying and hence the homicide charge.
It's a very self-centered logic.
Yes.
Setting aside all the problems with that analogy, what are its implications? Compulsive gambling might be so harmful that gambling should be banned. (As a libertarian I of course disagree.) But you know what it would not make sense to do? Allow gambling, but declare that casinos must be designed to be unpleasant to spend time at. "You can have craps and roulette and blackjack… but you must serve bad food."
Heroin is actually addictive, not addictive in some stupid metaphorical sense. If you are addicted to heroin and then you stop using it, you can get sick or, you know, die.
David, you're kind of beclowning yourself here, by refusing to countenance the possibility that these addictive designs are having a detrimental health impact.
The science needs to be there, to be sure, before we launch some wide-ranging effort to regulate social media algorithms. It can't just be based on "vibes." But it's not rational to dismiss that possibility from the get-go by categorically just describing social media as being something that people just want to use obsessively. That want may well be a problem. You're begging the question.
To quote CJ Roberts:
Again, you're just begging the question.
I would take a step back here. It is the function of legislatures, not courts, to determine what “paradigm” applies to sweeping new activities that pervade public life. One reason for this is that it is the job of the legislature to determine if entirely new paradigms are needed and devise them if they are.
This is as good an example as any. In the case of an internet activity that is somewhat addictive (behaviorally but not chemically), it is downright foolish to discuss whether the “internet paradigm” or the “addiction paradigm” applies. Rather, we should be free to deal with the issue sui generis, in its own terms, on its own merits. We should not reflexively fit major new activity into the Procrustean bed of paradigms formed for entirely different situations.
The First Amendment imposes limits. But I don’t think some elements of the issue - cases where for example children take their parents’ credit cards to pay to keep playing games cleverly designed to induce pay-to-play — are protected by the First Amendment.
I would revive a First Amendment paradigm the Supreme Court initially applied to movies when they came out over a century ago, that pure entertainment is not speech, to games of that sort, at least where both children and money are involved.
Tell you one behavioural addiction - the constant need to frame a new phenomena as co-equal with an old phenomenon and confine the argument to the exigencies of the old phenomenon; also wielding a blanket concept like the First Amendment as a thought-killer, shutting down any analysis of the phenomena outside that conceptual framework.
Perhaps an amendment to ban putting addictive chemicals like
C6H12O6 into children's mouths should ought to be a public health direction for a number of states. Or constitutionally mandate tax stamps on every container and wall and balance the budgets (except for the ATFE++ SWAT Revenuers). Your Vice = My Revenue.
C6H12O6 isn't funny -- it's been proposed...