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Teaching Constitutional Law in a Crisis of Judicial Legitimacy
The real crisis seems to be in academia, not at the Court
Today's New York Times has a piece by Jesse Wegman on "The Crisis in Teaching Constitutional Law" that reflects the kinds of sentiments I've heard at conferences, lunch tables, and especially on social media - that it is hard to teach constitutional law today because the Supreme Court is doing such lawless stuff.
"Teaching constitutional law today is an enterprise in teaching students what law isn't," Leah Litman, a professor at the University of Michigan law school, told me.
Rebecca Brown, at the University of Southern California, has been teaching constitutional law for 35 years. "While I was working on my syllabus for this course, I literally burst into tears," she told me. "I couldn't figure out how any of this makes sense. Why do we respect it? Why do we do any of it? I'm feeling very depleted by having to teach it."
At least she's still trying. Larry Kramer, a widely respected legal scholar and historian who was my constitutional law professor at N.Y.U. 20 years ago, called it quits in 2008, on the heels of the Supreme Court's divisive decision in District of Columbia v. Heller, which struck down decades of precedent to declare for the first time that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms. Many observers felt that Heller's majority opinion, by Justice Antonin Scalia, intentionally warped history to reach a preordained result.
Professor Kramer was the dean of Stanford law school at the time, and after the Heller ruling, he told me recently, "I couldn't stand up in front of the class and pretend the students should take the court seriously in terms of legal analysis." First-year law students, he felt, "should be taught by someone who still believed in what the court did."
And so on. I have heard many others voice these concerns, and I worry that they demonstrate a lack of perspective that will dis-serve our students.
Last fall I presented at a conference on "Teaching in a Time of Change and Conflict" on some of these themes. I've now posted on SSRN my presentation: Teaching Constitutional Law in a Crisis of Judicial Legitimacy. I offer a quite different take. From the introduction:
The topic of our symposium is "Teaching in a Time of Change and Conflict" and my specialty is constitutional law, so as you can imagine I have some things to say. With recent developments in the Supreme Court, I regularly hear other professors, including colleagues and friends, ask: How can we teach constitutional law in such a crisis of judicial legitimacy? How can we still teach students that courts are a place to seek justice? . . . These sentiments reflect a real challenge for teaching constitutional law today. But I fear they demonstrate a lack of perspective. The things that today's law professors say about today's Supreme Court are things that others could have said, and sometimes did say, about the Supreme Court for many decades. The real crisis in teaching constitutional law today is not in the Supreme Court, but in legal academia: the question is whether we can maintain the perspective necessary to teach effectively about the Court and the Constitution.
From the argument:
There is a perception that there is something different, something more challenging, about teaching constitutional law today because the Supreme Court has been doing so many things, so quickly, that are so hard to justify.
This perception is wrong. You have always been teaching law in a time of a crisis of judicial legitimacy. The Supreme Court has never been the same thing as the Constitution. It has never been infallible at interpreting the Constitution. It has long been engaging in awe-inspiring power grabs. Dobbs, Bruen, and Bush v. Gore have nothing on Cooper v. Aaron, Miranda v. Arizona, Baker v. Carr and Reynolds v. Sims, Gideon v. Wainwright, The School Prayer Cases, The School Busing Cases, Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey, Boumediene v. Bush, and Obergefell v. Hodges. If you were asking yourself just two years ago how we can still teach our students about constitutional law . . . then you have not been teaching them very well until now.
In sum, the Court has always been making questionable calls in high-profile cases, likely for a mix of political reasons and genuine differences of opinion about the nature of the Constitution. What has really changed is not that the Court is newly imperial, or newly lawless, or newly political. What has changed is that many more folks inside the Ivory Tower have noticed, and no longer see their values and ways of thinking represented as often by the Court. That reflects a change in what the Court thinks the law is, to be sure. But it does not reflect a change in whether the Court is doing law.
. . . .
I am not naïve enough to think that the solution to the legitimacy crisis will arrive anytime soon, and indeed I can't guarantee that anybody who needs to hear these admonitions will listen to them. But at least listen when I say this: There are lots of people, and even lots of law students, outside the bubble. And they can hear you.
And from the conclusion, with a great debt to C.S. Lewis:
Now let me tell you why we should not succumb to cynicism about constitutional law.
In 1939, C.S. Lewis preached a sermon called "Learning in War-Time." "A University is a society for the pursuit of learning," he began. But, "this seems to be an odd thing to do during a great war. What is the use of beginning a task which we have so little chance of finishing? Or, even if we ourselves should happen not to be interrupted by death or military service, why should we—indeed how can we—continue to take an interest in these placid occupations when the lives of our friends and the liberties of Europe are in the balance? Is it not like fiddling while Rome burns?"
Lewis's ultimate answer was that the war had not truly altered the human condition: "All the animal life in us, all schemes of happiness that centered in this world, were always doomed to a final frustration. In ordinary times only a wise man can realize it. Now the stupidest of us knows. We see unmistakably the sort of universe in which we have always been living, and must come to terms with it." If learning was worth doing in normal times, it was no less worthy during a time of war.
So, too, if constitutional law was worth learning and arguing about in 1964 or 1984, it is worth learning and arguing about in 2024. Once we realize that somebody has always been holding the short end of the Supreme Court, somebody has always been losing, somebody has always been having important decisions ripped away from them on contestable legal grounds, the task of the professor has not fundamentally changed.
It is not my place to tell you, let alone my students, how to feel about the Supreme Court, or whether to try to decimate it as an institution. But if we cannot understand it, if we cannot teach it, we have no business in this business.
For more, including a discussion of Scott Alexander's review of Martin Gurri's Revolt of the Public, a discussion of the methodological Turing test, and other concrete pedagogical suggestions, you can read the whole thing, only eight pages.
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One of the best parts of being a student of history is that you learn quickly that there’s nothing new, even in America, which loves to celebrate the novel. The underlying debates that vex so many Americans now (representation, who gets a say in democratic societies, states vs federal) vexed those who founded the country.
To me it’s ultimately reassuring.
I also wonder if people now are putting a greater deal of pressure on the SC because of dysfunction in the other branches. The legislature (on the whole) seems hellbent on gridlock, and executives, who have expanded their power greatly and seem to have greater impact, switch too quickly for lasting change. The SC might seem to people something far more stable or much more capable of creating lasting effects. Or, more hyperbolically, you here people on every side talking about the SC saving our country, which of course it can’t do by itself. So the stakes and expectations for folks seem higher. Maybe that undercuts my earlier thoughts…
"...executives... switch too quickly for lasting change..."
The other power-base that you don't mention are the entrenched bureaucracy, against whose unelected power there is no effective check (particularly given _Chevron_). The only group numerous enough to serve as a check would be the people themselves, were they not hamstrung by the pernicious doctrine of sovereign immunity. I don't really see any hope for stopping them.
Well said. And yes, it is reassuring.
Oh Boo Hoo. Let me know when they reinterpret Dred Scott, Slaughterhouse, Plessy, FDR's New Deal, and everything else that pleased the Progressive oxen.
Exactly. They loved it when they had a majority to completely upend the Constitutional order. Now they have a sad that the conservatives have a majority to push back on those revolutions. Turnabout is fair play.
No, it is not. If there is a "right" way to interpret a constitutional document, all the other ways are wrong. Whose "turn" it is is irrelevant.
No one who thinks Plessy or Dred Scott were progressive decisions should be taken seriously but there’s a broader issue. In this specific context, in general, a progressive is someone who wants to expand freedom, pluralism and democracy. Keep government out of our bedrooms and doctor’s offices, make it easier for people to vote, don’t privilege rural votes over urban votes, don’t use government to make life harder for the underprivileged and the unpopular, that sort of thing.
And in general conservatives don’t need the courts because they mostly control the political process.
So maybe it’s not such a bad idea to have courts that see to it that there are outer limits on how badly the politically powerless are treated and that encourage expanding political participation to everyone.
"And in general conservatives don’t need the courts because they mostly control the political process."
Can I have some of what you're smoking?
(note: strictly a joke)
Maybe not entirely, but thanks to anti-democratic institutions like the electoral college and the Senate, the party that has lost the popular vote for president in every election except one since 1992 currently has a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court. That looks an awful lot to me like conservatives controlling the political process.
"That looks an awful lot to me"
...that you do not accept Americsan Constitutionalism
The question is not American constitutionalism. The question is whether under American constitutionalism, conservatives control the political process. They do.
And indeed, they should. The only legitimate way to interpret a constitutional document is "conservatively". If there's no "conservation" aspect, if the document can mean whatever the Supreme Court chooses in to mean, you don't need a "constitution" to exert government police power over the people. Just do it.
s/Progressive/Democrat/
Better?
No, of course not, since you think Progressives support freedom, as evidenced by every Progressive politician ever.
Given that Republicans controlled the White House for all but 16 years from 1860 to 1932 I will be very surprised if either the Plessy Court or the Buck court was either progressive or majority Democrat, though I will admit to not having looked it up to see if I’m right, But you just keep believing whatever makes you feel better.
The reason of course they had such a long string of control was that the Democrats were the party of rebellion and slavery and Jim Crow, and while they had control of the "solid south" well into the 60's the West, Midwest, and most of the northeast.
The Democratic party didn't really become the "Progressive party" until Woodrow Wilson. Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive reformer, but not a redistributionist.
s/Progressive/Democrat/
So these are not the same thing. At all.
Funny given progressives keep insisting that they aren't just a majority of the Democratic party, but of the entire country. They are of course, neither; but that reality is beyond them.
Study history. Progressivism has not historically been coterminous with the Democratic coalition.
If you're going to bring up historical cases, you need to understand the historical context of the terms you use.
True, when progressivism was a Republican characteristic, the Democrats were all Jim Crow. Then the Democrats managed to be both at the same time (Wilson) before eventually settling on just being progressive-ish ('70s onwards).
Yeah, we're in agreement.
American progressives do not want to expand pluralism. They do not want to include and empower Islamists, Chinese nationalists/PRC loyalists, Putin-philes, Hindu nationalists, anarchists, anti-egalitarians, African nationalists, Euro-sceptics, etc.
Y’all don’t even pretend to think that their ideologies are equal. Yet, somehow, in robust, empirical evidence of the incongruousness of various religious value systems and cultural systems, let alone their inequality, THAT all must be swept under the rug and dismissed as being just ‘phobic’, ‘ignorance’, ‘bigotry’. American progressives don’t even believe that about half of their fellow Americans— yet, somehow, various value systems from across the globe which harbour essentially identical norms are to be included and celebrated.
‘Pluralism’ is entirely a con. It’s not just imbecilic, it’s a con.
Moreover, American progressives have loaded the deck in terms of who counts as (by which metrics someone qualifies as) ‘privileged’ and ‘underprivileged’. Further, such notions are advanced primarily as a power-grabbing effort to rejig all of civil society, all private institutions, and the government.
The idea, therefore, that those are anything other than freedom-REDUCING policies, ones advanced in furtherance of partisan-and-subjective equality-advancing agenda (for some at the expense of others), even at the expense of democratic norms (indeed, even if it requires running roughshod over them) is preposterous.
The rest of the world does not, and CANNOT believe you.
American progressives are instead best classified as totalitarians. They are invested in a comprehensive social re-engineering project domestically, and a racist imperialist cognate project to foist those values down the rest of the world’s throats globally. It’s a big part of the reason why so much of the left and right in the rest of the world, including the rest of the West, hates you.
Are you on drugs? No, liberalism — I mean in the classic sense — is neither "imbecilic" nor a "con."
1. the word "liberalism" does not appear in Theendoftheleft's little rant. He is taking issue with Krychek's rosy designation of progressive theology and its very selective notion of "pluralism."
2. Even if he had been talking about "liberalism" your parenthetic qualification "I mean in the classic sense" is doing a quite impossible amount of work. "Liberalism" has not referred to classical liberals, on this side of the Atlantic, for a century.
It's not rosy in the sense of expecting perfect results. No one gets it right all the time. But as a general proposition, at this point in time, if you are concerned about police abuses, or the war on drugs, or keeping government out of your bedroom and doctor's office, vote Democrat.
you do realize regarding police abuses, that Clarence Thomas has been one of the leading proponents on the SC for paring back qualified immunity.
Yes, and counter examples can be found for just about anything. But the general rule is that if you are concerned about police excesses, the GOP is not your friend.
It's hypocritical and totalitarian. It's pretentious too: it feigns being predicated upon real (empirical) knowledge and skills, when it's demonstrably not.
Again, it also espouses bullshit that adherents don't themselves believes about cultural equality and congruency because adherents have an ulterior social agenda to make both the New American Person and a globalized society. This is in turn based on their inchoate, ill-considered, normative aspirations.
To its very core, 'progressivism' is a con. You are the Elizabeth Holmes' of social engineering. You are also blithering idiots who don't breed, and you will be replaced by people with evolutionarily superior memes.
Now, hurry the fuck up and die off.
In the interim, vote Democrat if you want to turn your country into a third world dumpster fire run by totalitarian twits. Vote democrat if you don't want a government of the people by the people for the people, but who---in a complete betrayal of everything the left and American 'liberals' ever fought for---you want to dump millions more unskilled illiterate poor into the country whilst the middle class shrinks and the poor get poorer.
Your next civil war is going to make for great television, by the way.
He's taking issue with the concept of liberalism, whether or not he used the word.
That's not quite true, but it's certainly true today, which is why I explained how I was using the word.
No I wasn’t, and your asserting as much doesn’t make it so.
It is a tragedy that you ‘classical liberals’ let the left co-opt the liberal label from you, though. It’s even stupider that your yourselves CALL them ‘progressives’, rather than socialist, social democrats, Marxists, etc. It serves as cover for them, just as co-opting the word ‘liberal’ covered for them in times prior. That’s in part why the comprehensive social re-engineering projects can be called ‘liberal’ in America, but why that makes no sense for European liberals (who are basically all, including their political parties, on the so-called centre-right).
Wait... so, were YOU on drugs?
‘American progressives are instead best classified as totalitarians’
Only in the sense that you don’t know what either word means.
'even at the expense of democratic norms'
I think this means objecting to gerrymandering and other efforts to suppress black votes.
‘and a racist imperialist cognate project’
Is he talking about, like, the civil rights movement?
Superficial political theorists who never studied logic and sit in sinecure positions aren’t going to credibly show that terms were misused merely by asserting as much.
Relatedly, Ingsoc, that you could even equate the domestic civil rights movement with what I wrote about in terms of a project for the rest of the world shows why you’re both a liar and fool.
Interesting qualifiers, there
But not as 'interesting' as this part
Teddy, and the Progressives, were all about using the government to force their ideas of social justice and and human progress upon the populace. There was no "keeping the government out of" anything. And the movement was rather anti-democratic, in that it explicitly wanted to remove power from elected and appointed officials, and put it in the hands of "experts" and professional administrators. Their goal was never 'freedom'; it was a specific society that functioned as they desired.
It was Progressives that championed Prohibition. Many Progressives were involved in various eugenics movements. The Party openly wanted a 'better' electorate, so sought to impose literacy tests to eliminate ignorant voters, and some even wanted to remove "corrupt" blacks from the electorate entirely.
From the beginning, government was the tool the Progressives wanted to use to change society. It was never about reducing government power or keeping the government out of private life.
You're making two flawed assumptions. One, that progressivism hasn't changed in the last hundred years, and two, that because progressivism has sometimes been wrong about things that it can never be trusted again. (Try applying that standard to parenting; someone's mother once made a bad judgment call so she is forever barred from making any more judgment calls.)
Sure, progressives championed prohibition. Today, though, it's conservatives who support prohibition when it comes to legalizing drugs. And the experience with prohibition is probably responsible for today's progressives recognizing the danger inherent in giving government the power to control reproductive freedom. Sometimes we learn from our mistakes.
Progressives still believe they can create a better society, usually by coercing people. And any time some progressive effort fails, it is because it wasn't done hard enough - that is if the failure is admitted at all.
I don't know who you're talking to but progressives candidly admit that not everything they've proposed has been a smashing success. Some policies, however, have been. There is less elder poverty thanks to social security. Children are better off for the abolition of child labor. Then there's the whole abolition of Jim Crow.
Nobody's policies are perfect, but progressives at least try to make the world a better place, as opposed to conservatives who traditionally have done everything they can to prevent it.
Talk to a progressive about reforming SocSec and you will run into the most conservative person you've ever met. [The question is why do high income retirees get SocSec benefits instead of means-testing.]
There is an article in Nation about the abysmal state of urban schools in this country - with nary a mention of which party has been running the govt, including schools, in those cities the last 50-75 years.
You have infantilized an entire generation.
You do not meet replacement rate and are fundamentally reliant upon mass immigration of people who DON’T believe what you believe in a desperate effort to prop up your society from domestic demographic collapse. Relatedly, you have no real solutions to the non-viability of your core social welfare schemes; dumping millions of poor people (net takers) into the system will accelerate those schemes’ collapse, not save them.
You engage in totalitarian efforts at thought and speech control in all institutions where you have power.
You have ruined the social sciences and humanities, turning them into activist outlets that are unconcerned with the pursuit of knowledge and truth—and indeed REJECT such notions and goals under a knowledge-belief axis per Foucault. YOU created the post-truth world.
Your legal actors lie at every turn, turning every legal contest into a results-at-all-costs battle, and undermining the rule of law. You then rationalize this by castigating your legal system as being created by racist white men. You, not the Red Teamers, have turned America into a laughing stock and a banana republic.
You claim to have values and policies that are predicated upon, or track, science and social scientific data. Yet when confronted with robust scientific data that undermines your key values (about free will, about IQ, etc), you either ignore them or slander them as being ‘harmful’.
You’re evil idiots and you have no future.
I never made either of those assumptions, but they certainly do make nice strawmen for you to attack. What I was trying, and apparently failing, to do was to educate you as to the meaning of the things you were talking about.
But since you've denied the Progressive Party's founding and historical platform, what exactly do you think a political "progressive" is? You seem to identify as one, so I suspect it will be everything "good", of course.
'using the government to force their ideas of social justice and and human progress upon the populace'
We've had decades of Republicans trying to impose Christian values they clearly they themselves did not care about but which allowed them to control peoples' lives and bodies. The idea that elected politicians countering that is 'focring' anything is staggering, but not exactly surprising, hypocricy.
'From the beginning, government was the tool the Progressives wanted to use to change society.'
People are allowed to work to change society, it's kinda what being free and democratic is all about.
Out of our doctors offices unless your vaccine passport has expired.
Which government where mandated vaccines? They were strongly encouraged but nobody went to jail if they didn't get one.
people lost their jobs for not getting vaxed
That’s not the government. Unless you're specifically limiting your comment to people who worked for the government, in which case the government has the same right to set employment qualifications as every other employer.
Krychek - were you living in a cocoon during 2021 & 2022?
The U.S. Supreme Court blocked the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration’s (OSHA) mandate for employees of large companies (over 100 workers) in the U.S. to have the COVID-19 vaccine or get regular COVID-19 tests.
In the majority opinion, the court said that OSHA’s decision to require vaccines or tests was an overstep into the lives and health of many employees.
But the Supreme Court did allow a Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) mandate to go into effect. It requires health care workers at facilities that take federal funds to get a COVID-19 vaccine.
Thank you so much for explaining what “a progressive is…” Now I know that I can confidently dismiss them as just another bunch of infantile religious nuts.
Dred Scott was a conservative decision. Indeed, slavery was a conservative institution while emancipation was a liberal policy. To insert "Progressive" here is absurd - particularly with the insane suggestion that Dred Scott was a Progressive decision or was approved by progressives.
Dred Scott couldn't be a Progressive decision, since the Progressive era came after the Civil War.
But it does serve as an excellent example of how the Court can render illegitimate decisions. Claiming Heller is the starting point for that is sheer stupidity.
I literally burst into tears
Anyone who is old enough to have been teaching Con Law for 35 years and who speaks like a dim-witted 20-something probably shouldn't be teaching anything.
“At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child — miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.” (P.J. O'Rourke)
These people never grow up.
Sounds like a certain party nowadays
They never grow up? Does that mean they are gullible enough to believe that childish, silly, fucking fairy tales are true?
Bigotry, backwardness, ignorance, and superstition are no way to go through life -- and they ensure that conservatives are doomed in the modern American culture war.
Carry on, clingers. But only so far and so long as your betters permit.
Your political compatriots don’t breed, AIDS. They are being outbred by those with different values. Yours have no future.
You lambast bigotry from religious Christian Americans. Yet when Muslims and other groups harbour and exhibit essentially identical norms, attitudes, and social practices (and far worse ones too), you dismiss all criticism thereof as Islamophobia, bigotry, ‘ignorance’. Your claims of inclusion are lies. Your claims of cultural equality are all lies. Your value system is, to its core, self-contradictory and predicated upon demonstrable falsehoods.
You’re a bullshitting moron, AIDS. You are losing, and shall lose, the global culture war. Till then, your own allies can see through your idiotic hypocrisy. Europe is also hopefully turning away from all your nonsense now.
Carry on, AIDS. Till your American betters Breivik your family. (Figured out by now that it doesn’t even matter who wins your elections in November? They’re going to do so anyway.)
And who are you kidding, AIDS? American youth have been infantilized (and rendered incapable of figuring things out for themselves) by cultural, educational, and political norms that ALL stem from your 'progressive-liberal' cohort.
“Dobbs, Bruen, and Bush v. Gore have nothing on
Cooper v. Aaron, Miranda v. Arizona, Baker v. Carr and Reynolds v. Sims, Gideon v. Wainwright, The School Prayer Cases, The School Busing Cases, Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey, Boumediene v. Bush, and Obergefell v. Hodges”
None of those later cases were nakedly partisan. Democrats and Republicans were on both sides of those issues, and most of them were decided by a mix of Justices (by political party). By contrast, Dobbs, Bruen and Bush v. Gore were nakedly Republican decisions made by partisan Republican appointees pushing party agendas.
Read the sentence right before your selective quotation begins. The author made the point about SCOTUS arrogating power to itself. There's no question that every one of the cases cited did exactly that. Try engaging with the actual argument.
As for partisanship, there might be some of that. But is it possible that the current majority might also have good, principled reasons for some of their decisions? For instance, could it be that they genuinely believe (with very good reason) that Roe and Casey were utterly garbage decisions devoid of persuasive reasoning? Or that the 2nd Amendment actually does convey an individual right? The author suggest this in the post:
"In sum, the Court has always been making questionable calls in high-profile cases, likely for a mix of political reasons and genuine differences of opinion about the nature of the Constitution. What has really changed is not that the Court is newly imperial, or newly lawless, or newly political. What has changed is that many more folks inside the Ivory Tower have noticed, and no longer see their values and ways of thinking represented as often by the Court."
Dobbs only returned the abortion question to the states where always should have been. Nothing political about the proper constitutional interpretation - unless you are highly partisan
Bruen with some faults is a reasonable attempt to create viable standards that adheres to 2A - Nothing political about that unless you are highly partisan.
Bush v Gore - Got the right answer albeit with possibly the wrong reason. The bottom line on Bush v Gore was that the Fl SC was crafting rulings that did not follow Fl election statutes.
Dobbs harks back to Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927). Each decision empowers the State to determine who does and does not reproduce.
Exactly. Buck restricted who could have children; anti abortion laws compel people to have children, and maybe the answer should be that the government should stay out of it.
Roe was based largely on a woman’s right to privacy. In Dobbs no attempt was made to partly salvage or even acknowledge such a right. Alito could have said, “There may be a right to bodily autonomy but it is not violated here.” But he didn’t.
capt
You are grossly and intentionally misrepresenting the holding in Dobbs. All it did was return the issue to the states.
Dobbs doesnt not ban abortion
Dobbs does not remove or limit privacy
Returning it to the states necessarily implies no right to privacy, at least where abortion is concerned.
In other words, "I'm right; you're wrong."
I’m sorry your analytical skills are no better than that.
Krychek - there is absolutely nothing in Dobbs that removes the right to privacy nor is there any implied removal of the right to privacy in Dobbs
Yes there is. Involving the government in a woman's reproductive decision is per se a violation of her privacy.
Stipulative nonsense, Krychek, misrepresenting matters as if, somehow, regulating which procedures a doctor may or may not perform removes a DIFFERENT person’s privacy. Further, YOUR analytical skills are obviously quite poor—even when relying on a questionably ballooned concept of ‘privacy’; abortion isn't a matter of privacy as such, it's about a right to access a medical procedure and a right of medical providers to provide it. This is part of the reason why more civilized countries do not follow America’s disingenuous ‘substantive due process’ doctrine.
Not that I’m pro-life: who can listen to you progressive-totalitarian imbeciles for even one moment and still possibly believe in the ‘inherent sanctity’ of human life?
There obviously isn't any free standing right to privacy as far as abortion is concerned, because if there was it would have to be one of those 9th Amendment unenumerated rights "retained" by the people.
And since abortion has always been regulated, no right to it can be "retained."
Very few rights are freestanding and very few rights are completely unregulated. Doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Sure, but you are attempting to discover an unenumerated right to privacy which goes this far while acknowledging that it doesnt go that far.
For which you need to drum up some actual evidence that this far was understood and accepted as a right. This is not the same as finding evidence that this far was merely legal at the founding. Not everything that is currently legal is so because it is a right, otherwise the criminal law could never be extended.
In reality the right to a this far right to privacy that covers this much abortion not only has no evidence behind it. It has positive evidence against it. Even the ancient judges who opined about quickening and so on explained that the objection to any law against abortion prior to quickening was a matter of the evidential standard for the crime. That an abortion killed a live child could not be proved prior to quickening. That was you could not be convicted of such a crime. It was a matter of evidence, not a matter of rights.
But now it can be proved. That's a change in technology, permitting a change in evidential standards, not a change in the scope of any right.
And going this far but not that far is called drawing lines and it's what judges do. It's not an exact science and it's far from perfect but there will never be a system under which judges aren't called to draw lines. Naturally I want them to agree with me about where to draw it, and so do you, but that doesn't change the basic principle.
And you can't invoke history and tradition because of all the issues that simply weren't issues in an earlier era. I don't know, and neither do you, what the framers would have thought about the ability to go on line and find whatever hard core pornography your heart desires. (I suspect Benjamin Franklin would have been ecstatic.) Or whether they might want to re-think the Second Amendment in light of the mass shootings that didn't happen back then. Those were not issues at the time, so they were never discussed, so any attempt to discern the intent of the framers is a fool's errand based on reading tea leaves.
And no, there is no positive evidence against. If you mean medical technology has advanced, it doesn't tell us whether a fetus meets the legal definition of personhood, or if one person has the right to seize another person's body for nine months. Science can tell you how to do things; not whether you should.
And going this far but not that far is called drawing lines and it’s what judges do. It’s not an exact science and it’s far from perfect but there will never be a system under which judges aren’t called to draw lines.
They’re supposed to be discovering lines previously drawn by somebody else, not drawing their own lines. Judges judge the lines. Legislators and constitution writers draw them.
Naturally I want them to agree with me about where to draw it, and so do you, but that doesn’t change the basic principle.
It depends what you mean. I want them to agree with me on where to “draw” the line, in the sense that I want them to respect the line that’s there, even if I would prefer it to be somewhere else. So for example I would be entirely happy with a constitutional right to abortion up to say 16 weeks, but SCOTUS was quite right not to pretend to have found such a line. In that sense I’m happy – they did their job as judges properly, unlike their predecessors in Roe and Casey who drew their own lines out of nowhere .
In the same way I would love there to be a constitutional right to freely engage in commercial activity without seeking a permit from the government. But I don’t want the courts to draw such a line because it’s entirely clear that such a right never existed.
I don’t want the judges to invent lines from their own list of preferred policies. I want them to stay in their lane.
If you mean medical technology has advanced, it doesn’t tell us whether a fetus meets the legal definition of personhood, or if one person has the right to seize another person’s body for nine months. Science can tell you how to do things; not whether you should.
However, science can tell you that a fetus is a live human being*. Unlike in the days of Sir Edward Coke where the matter was in doubt.
As to a right “to seize another person’s body for nine months” it should perhaps be noted that :
1. every person currently alive, any everybody who has ever been born, including those women who would prefer to be rid of their own unborn child, has arrived in the world as a result of just such a “seizure.” Thus on common law principles the right of occupation for nine months is as firmly established by custom as it is possible to get.
2. The vast majority of humans, though not quite all, have arrived in their mother’s womb by invitation, ie with her consent, and by her voluntary act has begun its life there. “Seizure” is therefore an unlikely description. The creature grows where it was created, with the mother’s active co-operation.
* "an individual of the species of primate mammal that walks on two feet, is related to the great apes, and is distinguished by a greatly developed brain with capacity for speech and abstract reasoning"
And what you are proposing is flat-out impossible, and would be even if it were a good idea, which it is not. The Constitution is written in broad brush strokes. The framers neither could have nor did anticipate every possible application that might come along. How much process constitutes due process in a given case? Which rights exactly are the unenumerated rights of the Ninth Amendment or the privileges and immunities of the Fourteenth Amendment? Exactly what type of discrimination runs afoul of equal protection; why is race protected but criminality is not? Etc. Etc. Etc. Plato's forms simply do not apply to American constitutional law.
With respect to abortion, we just disagree and I'm not going to repeat myself from earlier threads. You want to believe it's a person, knock yourself out, but don't use the government to force everyone else to go along with you.
Why do you think the guy invented electricity?
The penultimate paragraph of Dobbs states:
597 U.S. 215, ___, 142 S. Ct. 2228, 2284 (2022) [citation omitted]. The staggering, dangerous breadth of this pronouncement can perhaps be best illustrated by a hypothetical.
Suppose a state legislature decrees that every woman under the age of 21 who becomes pregnant must abort the pregnancy. That is a state regulation of abortion. The legislature could rationally believe that offspring born to underage mothers are more likely to become public charges. Preservation of the public fisc is plainly a legitimate state interest. Ergo, that passes the rational basis test.
You know, not everybody thinks that the power to prohibit is also the power to mandate.
The state can prohibit rape; Does this mean the state can mandate that you have sex?
Assume that some crazy legislature somewhere passed a law making rape mandatory in certain circumstances. (I don't know, maybe they're concerned about low birthrates). Under the Alito/Thomas view that there is no such thing as a constitutional right to privacy or bodily autonomy, what would be your argument that such a law would be unconstitutional? Which specific section of the constitution prohibits laws requiring people to have sex?
Your argument rests on the practical reality that no legislature would ever pass such a law and you're probably right. But if one did, I am far from convinced that Alito or Thomas would find it unconstitutional.
Krychek -
You keep repeating the false claim that dobbs removed the constitutional right to privacy.
"Assume ..."
No. Provide a concrete example, not a hairbrained hypothetical.
You keep saying, "Under this strawman, what would be the argument?" But that was not what Dobbs said. Dobbs said that abortion was not covered by any right to privacy, not that no right to privacy exists. The test for an unenumerated right is whether it is "deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition"/ "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty." And Alito writes that abortion does not satisfy that test. But a right not to be raped would indeed do so.
Thomas separately argues — with no justices, including Alito, joining him — that there's no such thing as substantive due process, that any applicable right here must be found in the P&I clause (or perhaps somewhere else), not in the due process clause.
Before marital rape was recognised, it did.
Decriminalized rape =/= mandatory rape.
Before the criminalization of marital rape couples can and did have consensual sexual encounters, and spouses can and did tell their partners that they weren't in the mood and had their wishes respected. The government wasn't looming over them with the threat of charges should they continue with consent or desist where there was no consent.
“Democrats and Republicans were on both sides of those issues”
“The Democratic Party and the Republican Party were just like the old patent medicine drummer that used to come around our country. He had two bottles of medicine. He’d play a banjo and he’d sell two bottles of medicine.
“One of those bottles of medicine was called High Popalorum and another one of those bottles of medicine was called Low Popahirum.
“Finally somebody around there said is there any difference in these bottles of medicines? ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘considerable. They’re both good but they’re different,’ he said.
“‘That High Popalorum is made from the bark off the tree that we take from the top down. And that Low Popahirum is made from the bark that we take from the root up.’
“And the only difference that I have found between the Democratic leadership and the Republican leadership was that one of ’em was skinning you from the ankle up and the other from the ear down — when I got to Congress.”
https://www.hueylong.com/perspectives/huey-long-quotes-in-his-own-words.php
I counted the 7 majority votes in Plessy v. Ferguson, and found 5 Democrats plus 2 responsible and statesmanlike Republicans (/sarc)
News flash: the 1896 Democratic Party looked absolutely nothing like today’s Democratic Party. If you think those segregationists would be welcome in today’s Democratic Party you’re even more delusional than our resident Greek Alphabet cuckoo who thinks Dred Scott was a progressive decision. Nope, once the Democrats started passing civil rights laws, the racists started voting Republican.
My point about Plessy v. Ferguson was that it was bipartisan, not that Democrats have always been the same.
The Huey Long quote was…well, read it again, the Kingfish doesn't need an interpreter.
I will agree that both parties, as they existed at the time, shared blame for Jim Crow. But the claim that the two parties are the same is ridiculous. On social issues like abortion and gay marriage, on tax policy, on foreign policy, on mixing church and state, they could not be more different.
Both parties do help themselves to the treasury but given human nature that will be a fact of life under any party and under any system. In terms of policy, though, Mitch McConnell will never be mistaken for Chuck Schumer or vice versa.
And the point about the Plessy decision is that this was from the good old days when opinions were nonpartisan.
In comparing the parties, you want to look at their actions and not their words.
The Republicans seem to have given up on gay marriage, though some of them are suggesting timidly that maybe there it shouldn’t be compulsory (for bakers, etc.).
Quarreling over how to fiddle with taxes at the margins conceals fundamental agreement on borrowing, spending, and electing.
Somehow they manage to support a bipartisan foreign policy of meddling everywhere, with a dissident group of Republicans making a fuss over Ukraine.
Even on abortion the Republicans are backing down once they realize that they got tricked into actually overruling Roe, which they never wanted – they wanted an issue to fundraise off of without accomplishing anything. Given a chance to accomplish something, they look at the polls and say drop any pretext of caring about the subject.
On church and state, the parties differ on a fundamental point: *which* religion should be established? Some version of traditional monotheism, or the modern woke belief system? And I’m not even sure the Republicans care much for monotheism, or that they effectively oppose wokeness. A bunch of futile gestures, followed by dropping the issue, seems the most likely outcome.
On certain fundamental issues they're agreed: borrow/spend/elect, support for the less savory large corporations, spying on everyone, bombing shit abroad, and other bipartisan stuff like that.
I will take a system under which there is genuine bipartisanship in which both sides honestly and in good faith try to get it right, even if they occasionally get it wrong, over a system in which there is an automatic knee jerk that if the other guy is for it I'm against it.
The rest of your post is mostly hand waving that in large part mischaracterizes the facts. There is much to criticize about the current system and the two major parties. But much of what you identify as there being no real difference really comes down to the extremist left and right are both nuts, and the grownups in both parties see that the moderate position is frequently the correct one. We don't, for example, depose every offensive third world dictator, but we don't let Putin march across Europe either. The ill-defined "woke" isn't a religion, but a loose (and ill defined) collection left of center social policies. I would argue that these days, "woke" is nothing more then a general term of opprobrium for anything conservatives don't like, though if you think you have a good definition for it, I'm all ears.
"the moderate position is frequently the correct one"
What does moderation have to do with the policies I've identified (and I'll repeat): borrow/spend/elect, support for the less savory large corporations, spying on everyone, bombing shit abroad, and other bipartisan stuff like that.
If bipartisanship is the same as moderation, then it's moderate to jump off a bridge so long as both donkeys and elephants are doing it.
I think you might be completely and utterly wrong about gay marriage and abortion.
The Republicans are trying to repeal gay marriage? Really?
They're not retreating on abortion? The major Republican Presidential contender literally wants to split the baby and have a grand bargain on abortion.
the modern woke belief system?
1) Defining a belief system by means of those who use it as a partisan wedge seems a bad idea. One clue: the right can't even agree what it is, much less normal people.
2) Was the New Deal an establishment of it's ideology? Quit calling everything a religion.
3) a pox on all their houses is reductionist laziness.
I didn't call everything a religion, I called the woke religion a religion.
So you're *inconsistently* calling things religion, based on how unreasonable you personally feel they are.
What a great paraphrase - it's as if you captured all my sentiments in one sentence!
Indeed, it is completely inconsistent to treat two separate things differently, and you are too smart to accept any excuses like "the two things are different."
"News flash: the 1896 Democratic Party looked absolutely nothing like today’s Democratic Party."
Granted, the difference is stark, black and white. In the 1890's the Democratic party was all about handing out racial spoils to whites at the expense of blacks. Now it's all about handing out racial spoils to blacks at the expense of whites. That's literally the exact opposite!
That you think so says a lot about you.
They seem to like segregated dorms and safe spaces
Bush v. Gore? But how was it wrong? "Seven Justices agree" LOL
my recollection was 7 agreed that it was an equal protection problem.
5-4 on the second trip to the SC in stopping the recount (3rd trip? to SC)
the district court is the only court that got the right answer for the right reason. The florida statutes at the time allowed either candidate to contest the election selectively at the precinct or county level which is (was) correct. The courts agreed that it was correct. Once the election was certified, the protest had to a) present evidence that put the election in doubt (on a statewide basis) and B) had a uniform application on a statewide basis.
The statewide basis uniformally was the hurdle that the district court ruled the Gore team failed to achieve/ present sufficient evidence to meet their burden
By the same token, if you can't explain this perception of the Supreme Court's legitimacy being in crisis in terms other than, "Well, you just don't like the way it's going, is all," then you're missing something important about the discourse.
We might be able to find other historical examples where the Supreme Court has arrogated power to itself and handed down shocking opinions. But the Supreme Court's legitimacy is not measured in terms of, "do the law professors agree that this is what the law requires," but in terms of, "does the audacity of these decisions risk undermining the fundamental respect of the Court's rulings that is required for our system of law to continue functioning."
Bruen and Dobbs are really only the most recent of a series of decisions over the past couple of decades that are putting this fundamental respect at risk. Are lower courts following them? How are they applying them? What are legislators and governors doing? Read through the chaos that Bruen has unleashed; Dobbs has emboldened some judges to cite Scripture. The Fifth Circuit has become its own fiefdom, as the judges sitting there feel entitled to play fast and loose with law and procedure, trusting that the Supreme Court couldn't possibly pull back all of their worst decisions.
The Supreme Court has signaled to the Trump and Bush judges sitting below that extremism and innovation is now permitted, and may be rewarded. Everything looks like a "major question" now. Every employer and foundation with a diversity mandate is getting sued. This is a full-out assault on a constitutional and legal order that has held steady for at least the last several generations, and it is being facilitated by a Court that actively manages its "shadow docket" to signal its thoughts on advocacy litigation, while it deliberates over the "landmark" cases.
Has public opinion shifted so rapidly? Are the courts just undertaking a long-overdue correction after drifting out of touch? No. The public is far more liberal, on all of these issues, than the Supreme Court is being. That is the root of the Court's legitimacy crisis. The harder it leans right, the more extremism it inspires in lower and state courts, the more that legislators and governors will disregard its decisions and actively undermine them.
Josh has written repeatedly, and obtusely, on how it is good that the Court disregard public opinion. That the proper constitutional order is to be upheld, regardless of what the people might think about it. But he doesn't understand - and you might not, either, Will - that the Supreme Court's "legitimacy" ultimately requires respect by the public and other legal officials that its rulings are law. The more the Court dares us to dispute that assertion, the more at risk its legitimacy is.
American society is -- and for some time has been -- following an established trajectory.
The current Supreme Court is headed in a different direction.
I expect the American mainstream -- with it, progress, science, education, reason, inclusiveness, modernity -- will prevail against the Court, likely by changing the Court to better reflect modern America.
Let Ave Maria, Regent, Liberty, Brigham Young, Notre Dame and a few others teach that the current Supreme Court is likely to be part of the winning side of the modern American culture war, that God will smite the demons and restore a superstition-based, old-timey Christian dominion. Stronger law schools should and will teach that the great tide of American progress -- a liberal-libertarian tide effecting progress against the objections of conservatives -- is likely to overcome an old-timey, out-of-touch Supreme Court.
The Fifth Circuit has become its own fiefdom, as the judges sitting there feel entitled to play fast and loose with law and procedure, trusting that the Supreme Court couldn’t possibly pull back all of their worst decisions.
Judge "They can't catch 'em all" Reinhardt is on the phone and welcomes you back from your sixty year trip into the Amazon rainforest.
In other words, don't let the people look behind the curtain!
1. Teaching Constitutional Law is not going to be easy for idealists since Constitutional law is hardly an ideal place, nor has it ever been.
2. I see it more on the left than the right, but explaining something isn't condoning it.
3. What's partisan is a moving target, and retconning is allowed, so I don't think it's a good idea to use 'partisan or not' as a metric.
Who are you and why are you posting under Sarcastro's handle?
Exactly. And, in fairness to the many Con Law teachers who are ideologically opposed to the current direction of the Court but can complete a syllabus without "bursting into tears," I suspect this NYT piece is chum for its base and does not represent a fair sampling of current opinion in the field.
Has there ever been a time when SC justices invariably arrived at opinions by thoroughly and logically considering the arguments presented and incorporating their own legal knowledge while excluding any consideration of their personal desired outcome?
Do we actually want such a robotic take on the law?
It might work...just get some better AI, which is probably around the corner, and we can have robot lawyers and robot judges.
Americans would hate that, I'm quite confident.
It says something about our relationship with technology these days.
But also something about our desire for a human component in our judicial institutions.
Which is why light legal realism wherein a judge is not artificially cut off from their personal point of view and understanding of real-world consequence isn't a cynical take until you get to heavy legal realism wherein a judge ONLY takes such things into account.
"Does not compute...error...error..." [smoke starts pouring out of robot's ears]
We're very close to that. I helped a friend who's an attorney draft a white paper on the subject.
Yes.
Baude, have you considered the extent to which American constitutional scholars of both the libtarded and progressive-totalitarian varieties are, and have always been—at best—‘scholactivists’? That their attitudes and beliefs can be in part explained by the fact that most were never inculcated with scholarly norms in proper academic training programs and that they instead simply emulated the advocacy model of lawyers? This would help to explain, I humbly suggest, why it never occurred to most of them that they’re largely just partisan hacks engaged in a amateurish form of scholarship that would not (could not) pass muster elsewhere.
Have you also considered that the current framing in terms of a ‘crisis’ and questions of ‘judicial legitimacy’ is solely because Blue Teamers can no longer get the results they want or preserve the laws (especially those created in absolutely bullshit SCOTUS decisions from the latter half of the 20th century)? Ironically enough, the real ‘crisis’ is that partisan hacks are THEMSELVES undermining popular trust in the legal institutions just because they can no longer get their way.
One wonders if SCOTUS will survive this ‘crisis’.
I suspect that when you talk about "scholarly norms" you mean "my own personal biases about how academics ought to operate".
It's not as though the rest of your post is a model of objectivity.
On a blog comment…
Your suspicion is ill-founded. Don’t take my word for it AT ALL. Talk to people who work in other academic disciplines and to academics in other countries. (Their political leanings are irrelevant in this regard.)
This country is doomed.
Interesting how using the plain text of an enumerated right is out of control activism and reading in between the lines to allow federal agencies that trample enumerated rights is totes cool.
Emanations and penumbras my man, emanations and penumbras.
Save for the Commerce Clause, which is invoked by ritual incantation alone.
The 9th Amendment is plain text.
So is the 2nd.
Yes, I agree; there is an individual right to keep and bear.
"on the heels of the Supreme Court's divisive decision in ___"
You could write plenty of case names in that blank space, including both Roe and Dobbs.