The Volokh Conspiracy
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Former President Donald Trump's New York State Civil Fraud Verdict
A partial response to my friend and co-blogger Orin Kerr.
Orin Kerr has published a thought-provoking response to my post several days ago critiquing the New York State $450 million civil fraud verdict against Donald Trump. Orin pointed out that New York State Attorney General Letitia James has brought other civil fraud actions against businesses, as well as the action that she brought against Donald Trump, which is helpful to know. But, in my view, the action civil fraud action brought against former President Donald Trump was a case of selective prosecution of a victimless crime brought because of Trump's political views, and because he is the de facto nominee of the Republican Party in the 2024 presidential election. Selective prosecution raises both due process and equal protection clause issues of the kind that led the Framers to ban Bills of Attainder and Ex Post Facto laws, which clauses are also relevant here.
Orin takes issue with my claim that New York Banks do not rely on borrowers' claims as to the amount of wealth that they own, but they do their own independent assessment of a borrowers' wealth so Trump's alleged fraud was a victimless crime. No harm no foul. Orin gives as a hypothetical the example of a person who drives home, legally drunk, arrives safely at his house, and then is arrested, and deprived of his driving license because he endangered the public. Orin argues this is perfectly appropriate behavior by the police because the drunk driver endangered the general public in violation of the law. By analogy, Orin argues that Trump endangered the New York real estate market by borrowing money while offering inflated valuations of his real estate assets, even though lenders were discounting his valuations and making their own independent valuations before issuing him loans all of which he repaid.
First, there is a fundamental difference between Orin's hypothetical and what Donald Trump actually did in this civil fraud case with no victim. Donald Trump signed contracts to borrow money from particular lenders who then did their own due diligence about the value of his real estate assets. There was privity of contract between Trump and the wealthy banks he borrowed from. Trump paid back all the money he borrowed, and there was no victim in the New York State civil fraud case who claimed he had been defrauded. But, when a person drives home legally drunk and makes it safely to his house and living room, there is no consent to his action by the other drivers and pedestrians on the road who the drunk driver endangered. There is no privity of contract to undertake the risk in Orin's hypothetical, whereas there was privity of contract between Trump and those who loaned him money. Witnesses testified that they would gladly lend Trump money in the future, and no one appeared who accused Trump of fraud except for the politically ambitious New York State Attorney General who was probably seeking to win over Democratic primary voters who pathologically hate Trump in a future gubernatorial or senatorial primary.
Second, while Orin is right that driving home drunk is a crime even if you safely arrive home, there is no prosecutor in the world who would seek to deprive such a person of their driver's license, as Orin would, or enter their property. In Edwards v. Police, 2 New Zealand Law Review 194 (1994), Edwards was driving his motor cycle home and was followed by a police officer who believed Edwards was inebriated. Edwards reached his house, turned off and parked his motorcycle in his driveway, and then the police officer who had been following Edwards arrested him on his own property and brought him to the police station against his will, and a breath exam indicated the presence of alcohol.
On appeal, the conviction of Edwards was reversed with the court saying "Edwards was subjected to unlawful restraint and detention amounting to assault and false imprisonment. *** [I]t is important in a case such as this that the Court vindicate and give tangible recognition to the substantial breach of rights which has occurred. The only way in which that can be done is by excluding the evidence which resulted in a direct and material way from the breach." Steven Got Calabresi et al., The U.S Constitution and Comparative Constitutional Law: Texts, Cases, and Materials at 1325 (Foundation Press 2016). We strongly suspect that most American juries or judicial fact-finders or district attorneys would have the same reaction to Edwards v. Police, which the New Zealand appellate court arrived at. Technically, Edwards broke the law by riding his motor cycle home while inebriated, but the police officer who arrested Edwards once he had safely reached his own property was found to have committed "assault and false imprisonment."
Third, Orin puts great weight on the fact that in New York State you need a license from the State to conduct business and such licenses, once obtained, require ethical conduct. In Germany, Japan, South Africa, and Israel, in contrast, there is a right to pursue whatever occupation you want to, subject to the government's power by just laws, enacted for the general good of the whole people, to adopt regulations. Most American States regulate over 100 different occupations most of which pose no harm to the general good of the whole people. Among the occupations regulated are being: a butcher, a florist, the owner of a tanning salon, a barber, a plumber, or an optician. These laws would all be unconstitutional in Germany, Japan, South Africa, or Israel. The Constitutions of those four countries all explicitly protect freedom of occupation. Such laws exist in the United States, however, only because Justice Stephen Field's dissent in The Slaughter-House Cases, 83 U.S. 36 (1873) garnered only four votes and not five. The Supreme Court doubled-down on its support for the unlimited regulation of occupational freedom in Williamson v. Lee Optical Co., 348 U.S. 483 (1955) where it applied the rational basis text to claims of occupational liberty. In my view, these Supreme Court decisions are profoundly wrong and ought to be over-ruled. To be sure, there are occupations where licensing should be required as for: medical doctors, or airplane pilots, or engineers, or lawyers. State regulation of your freedom to run a business in New York State should be allowed when just laws are enacted for the general good of the whole people. Corfield v. Coryell, (6 Fed. Cas. 546, no. 3, 230 C.C. E. D.Pa. 1823 (opinion of Justice Bushrod Washington). Otherwise, there should be a presumption of liberty; not a presumption of serfdom.
Fourth, the view that some take, not necessarily Orin, that we are all born subjects to be regulated conflicts profoundly with the view of both the Framers of the Declaration of Independence and of the Fourteenth Amendment, which Speaker of the House of Representatives, Schuyler Colfax, thought applied the rights under the Declaration of Independence to the States. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." Donald Trump has a constitutional right to do business in New York State, free of regulation, except by just laws enacted for the general good of the whole people.
I stand by my position that New York State has violated Donald Trump's First Amendment freedom of expression rights; his rights under the due process, equal protection, excessive fines, and Bill of Attainder Clauses; and that he has been stripped of the liberty of occupation that is necessary to protect his "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. Because New York State's civil fraud verdict interferes with Former President Donald Trump's right to run for President, the U.S. Supreme Court should hear this case as fast as possible.
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So I want to say the privity of contract idea is good. The rest of this is really crazy, and not only do I not care what new Zealand thinks, I know I’ve defended DUIs where the person safely got home and those clients were convicted. I have to say I’ve rarely seen something start well and go so far off the deep end.
I am particularly concerned with the idea that fraud is a legitimate way to make money because we’re born free argument. What even is that.
What fraud? None.
What victim? None.
Hush, the grownups are trying to talk about grownup things.
Drewski, proud graduate of the Neosporin School of Pompous Ass Hats.
You'd be amazed what a degree from NSPAH is worth on the market.
We know how much you dislike personal attacks.
Sorry, but kangaroo court's inflicting corrupt "justice" is not a "grownup thing."
Moron
Kangaroo court's what?
So you're claiming you're so stupid you think that the ruling wasn't corrupt bullshit?
No; I'm claiming you're so stupid you don't know when to use apostrophes.
But, no, the ruling was neither corrupt nor bullshit, but rather just and accurate.
If you're so stupid as to actually believe that "the ruling was neither corrupt nor bullshit, but rather just and accurate", you're too stupid to be commenting on my use of apostrophes.
Of course, when you're position is so lunatic that no sane person actually believes it, I guess wanking off about apostrophes is probably your best "argument"
I am particularly concerned that you're such a complete and total moron.
What "fraud"? That Trump claimed his property was worth more than some corrupt hack of a judge claims to believe it's worth?
Try again.
Trump offered a proposed valuation. When I got a mortgage, so did I. Then the bank did their own assessment, and offered their valuation.
Same happened in my mortgage.
Then we negotiated, and agreed on a loan amount, interest rate, and points.
Same as Trump.
If that's your definition of "fraud", it's because you're a raving lunatic.
"Oh, but Trump claiming it was worth more made teh interest rate he paid lower!!11! So he robbed the bank with a higher claim!"
No, pinhead, he and the bank negotiated. Part of the negotiation process was coming up with an agreed valuation, and therefore an agreed interest rate.
No fraud, just negotiations.
To pretend otherwise is to show oneself to be a dishonest lunatic
A finding of fraud with no requirement that any alleged misrepresentation or action was material to anything? You may want to try again you cretin.
You appear to be both agreeing with me, and then attacking me. you really should pick one
Weird how many on your side post so blinded with rage they attack even obvious compatriots.
No, you stupid pathetic hack liar. That he lied about objective facts about his properties.
Really? Do list some of these "objective lies", and then tell us who was "defrauded" by those "lies," and how.
Note: "X is worth $Y" is not an "objective fact" that someone can lie about.
"I purchased/sold X for $Y" is an "objective fact", and if that was wrongly claimed that would be a lie. But it's a fundamental economic rule that all statements of "X is worth $Y" are opinions, up until the point that X is sold.
And by definition, "opinions" are not "objective facts".
The square footage of a property is an objective fact. Whether apartments are rent-controlled is an objective fact. Whether there are deed restrictions on development is an objective fact. Whether one is legally allowed to build 500 homes or 2,500 homes on a property is an objective fact. Whether one’s interest in a partnership is a liquid asset that one is entitled to withdraw is an objective fact. I could go on, but until you acknowledge these things there’s not much point.
This was not a fraud case. This was a Executive Law § 63(12) case. But Deutsche Bank did lose out on millions of dollars of interest because the loans were not properly priced because of Trump's lies about his creditworthiness.
Come on. That might be true for, say, a unique work of art, where appraisals are purely arbitrary since the items have no intrinsic value. But businesses or real estate are ultimately valued by the profit they can generate. There's more than one legitimate method of valuation, but "pluck a number out of thin air not justified by anything" isn't one of them. (Hell, Trump himself doesn't believe that; he has repeatedly ranted that the value Engeron purportedly assigned to Mar-a-Lago — which is not what Engeron did, but set that aside — is wrong, not merely "opinion.") One appraiser may say a particular property is worth $35 million; another may say $40 million. But if so, you're not going to find an appraiser who comes in at $200 million for that property.
This was not a fraud case. This was a Executive Law § 63(12) case. But Deutsche Bank did lose out on millions of dollars of interest because the loans were not properly priced because of Trump’s lies about his creditworthiness.
Bullshit.
That is what you idiots have to play with, and it shows such completely pathetic ignorance of ANYTHING finance related that it identifies you as complete and total buffoons.
Deutsche Bank wanted the loan. They negotiated with Trump. Part of the negotiation process was coming up with an agreed valuation for the property, which translates to (when you're not a moron) negotiating the interest rate he'll be charged.
Your "position" is that poor old Deutsche Bank just doesn't know how to value a property, and was taken to the cleaners by the big ol' meanie Trump. It's so pathetically stupid that I wonder you can type and breath at the same time
tl;dr for the terminally David:
Deutsche Bank allowed Trump's higher valuation in order to lower the interest rate, so they could get Trump's business.
Then they proceeded to make a lot of money as Trump paid them the agreed interest and the principle.
It takes a pretty worthless individual to claim to believe in "Free minds and free markets", and then turn around and say "Trump is guilty of fraud for making a deal with Deutsche Bank and then honoring it."
But when you're a loser with TDS, there's no such thing as principles
You lost dwis where the cops lacked provable cause for the stop?
You still practice?
No fraud at all. The judge ignored the element of materiality, required for a find of fraud (as noted by Francis Menton).
This isn't a fraud case, dummy. It's a Executive Law § 63(12) case.
The judge claimed there was fraud.
So, is the judge a liar? Or is it not a fraud case?
The point, David, is that the charges against Trump are worthless crap. The fact that NY has an illegitimate law they're using to go after a political opponent does not, in fact, all of a sudden make the actions legitimate.
Which you would understand, if you weren't a complete moron
Greg J: The relevant definition of fraud comes from NY Executive Law 63 (12): "The word "fraud" or "fraudulent" as used herein shall include any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions. The term "persistent fraud" or "illegality" as used herein shall include continuance or carrying on of any fraudulent or illegal act or conduct."
The word “fraud” or “fraudulent” as used herein shall include any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions.
Great!
So, other than "Trump claimed the property was worth more than some PoS 'judge' w/o a finance background claimed it was worth", what, exactly, was Trump's "fraud"?
Because telling the bank you think the property is worth X is not fraud. not when the bank can and will do its own due diligence and come up with its own estimate of what the property is worth
See pages 22 - 33 of the 9/26/23 opinion
Got a link?
Privity isn't a shield, it doesn't relieve the parties of obligations to one another. The idea that by entering into an agreement the parties assume the risk of fraud is bizarre.
If both parties fullfill the contractual obligations, by agreement, their cant be fraud. IF there is fraud, it is in conflict with the Contract.
Even after the govt pointed out the problems, neither of the contract signatories agreed fraud was committed.
No, fraud commonly occurs in the inducement, during the negotiation of an agreement. It isn't erased by successful execution.
Now negotiation is inducement.
I have spent 45 years in sales. Almost all sales are made by the purchasers ignoring the money side of equation. Often both sides, making decisions against their own financial interests.
Yeah but you probably didn’t conduct any sales negotiations in a totalitarian police state.
Good for you. What constitutes fraud in court is defined by statute, not by your 45 years in sales. If you want to convince anyone that Engoron is wrong and no fraud occurred, do it with reference to the text of the NY statute. Otherwise you have nothing.
Don't call ma feelz "nuthin'"!
That's the Problem. The Statute used, does not require anyone to lose any money. The claim is, The bank made an offer to Trump. Trump accepted. The State of New York claims, The Bank has no power to set the interest rate on their loans.
Tell me you’ve never practiced criminal law without telling me you’ve never practiced criminal law.
How about “tell us you don’t bother researching any of the shit that comes out of your mouth?”
In Colorado, the first DUI nets you a 9 month suspension of your license. The second offense is 12 months, and the third is 24. If you earn three of them within seven years, the license revocation becomes a mandatory 5-year duration.
I highly doubt Colorado is alone in this regard; Calebresi has no excuse for his ignorant proclamations.
You both totes beat me to this.
His point is prosecuting a year later, when you are sober...
That’s pretty clearly not Prof. Calabresi’s point, since that’s no what happened in the case he was using as an example. But if it were, it would be an even stupider point, since people are charged with crimes long after the crime is complete all the time.
Obvious you do not practice law, and if you do, you don't know how to.
The job of enforcement of traffic is to do it at the time of the infraction, otherwise, one could fabricate that you infracted the vehicle code last week or last year, and are under arrest. Traffic enforcement must occur within a reasonable time of the infraction to be valid. Note the words infraction, reasonable time, arrest. Infraction means witnessed by an officer.
The situation described was an infraction, but after the fact, and past a point of reasonable enforcement. Since the officer determined an infraction, but did nothing for which no excuse was offered in being tardy, a stern warning is all that should have occurred. If, on the other hand, the infractor was evading capture, then the officer is in pursuit and justified in capture on one's property.
Driving while drunk is very serious and it's why there are increasing penalties for it. However, maybe its been reclassified as more than an infraction. But, also, however, application must be done while the infraction is fresh, legal, and legally relevant.
I believe this is what we call “not even wrong”.
To prove his claim, Calabresi cites a New Zealand appellate decision involving such facts. But if the case is being heard on appeal, doesn't that mean a prosecutor charged the defendant? And, isn't New Zealand "in the world"?
Calabresi's adulation for Trump has made him deranged to the point that he appears to be suffering from some syndrome.
Why dismiss the prospect of a stroke?
Hey Coach, stick to foo-bawl and molesting recruits, I make the medical diagnoses without ever examining the patient on this blog!
Second, while Orin is right that driving home drunk is a crime even if you safely arrive home, there is no prosecutor in the world who would seek to deprive such a person of their driver's license, as Orin would, or enter their property.
The nice way to ask this, I suppose, is: are you touched?
There are more specific, more targeted constitutional challenges that can, and should, be brought here.
How many other common law countries have anything approximating NY’s Executive Law 63(12)?
The state as equitable plaintiff.
The state being entitled to the disgorgement remedies (rather than the ‘victim’ banks)?
The statute’s preponderance of evidence standard used, in this case, in conjunction with NY’s penal laws (in causes 2-7).
The lack of criteria of application for 63(12)’s robust equitablish-fraud definition.
Due process violations across the board.
Plus, the state governor’s statements post hoc insinuating that the law shall not be applied to anyone else for such activities.
"Plus, the state governor’s statements post hoc insinuating that the law shall not be applied to anyone else for such activities,"
You assholes keep repeating this but she said that they won't use it against law-abiding businesses. I know English is hard when it's not your first language but that's not a license to make shit up.
The point is that this is an admission that Trump was selectively targeted. It incriminates their actions, it doesn’t excuse them.
The "extraordinary, unusual circumstance" which is "very different than Donald Trump and his behavior" is the repeated fraudulent conduct. NY businesses which do not do that have nothing to worry about. Those which do, should worry.
You didn't read the case and/or don't really understand it.
You're so overdetermined, you've become unable to understand English.
she plainly said they were only going after Trump, can’t understand why the “liberal” left has no problem with that. I despise Biden and the democrats but personally would be just as offended if they were subject to the same abuses. I guess the answer is you’re not “liberal” just totalitarian.
She plainly said Trump did crimes no one else did.
You're failing some really fundamental reading comprehension, in order to make a clownish argument that I'm not sure even you believe, hence you once again taking refuge in moralizing.
Thanks for further evidence that you don't even understand the case, Tankie. It was an equitable action.
Again, your posturing is ironic.
Truth stings, doesn’t it spunky
More the stupid, it burns.
You're attacking even other dead-enders defending Trump. Says quite a bit about your plans here.
Insults but not careful reading, eh?
You didn’t read anything, you know nothing of the case’s mechanics, and you don’t really care either.
Go back to Russia. Stop promoting massive national security threats–including infiltration of America by Russian, Chinese, and other operatives–with your open borders propaganda. You’re either in the pay of the Russians or Chinese, or you’re just a useful idiot who masturbates to his own superficial ideology.
This is a bit ironic, given that it's the Republicans who were caught practically colluding with Russia in an attack on Biden.
I’m neither American nor a Republican, Ingsoc, let alone an ideological or party partisan.
How, then, could it be ironic? God, you’re such a dumb liar.
Ouch. Sooner or later when you're defending Trump you all have to act like you're extremely stupid.
Your political ideology is dying, Ingsoc. Deal with it and move on with your life.
Well you couldn't identify the irony I was referring to in my above comment, so you're maybe not the brightest commentator, but also, I think this means you welcome the right-wing persecution of trans people? Because the only ideology of mine you seem able to identify is not hating trans people?
Trans is an ideology, Ingsoc, one predicated upon certain—contestable conceptions—of gender and sex, and one which utilises them in logically inconsistent ways.
Most of the world will ignore it once the West loses global dominance.
Further, the failure to recognize equality claims does not equal persecution---especially when significant medical/psychological treatment is warranted instead.
Your time and your ideology is over, Ingsoc. You’ve completely fucked over Western civilization AND America in your zeal, to boot.
All you do is lie.
Instead of wasting any more of my time, read the actual case.
‘Trans is an ideology,’
This is meaningless. It’s not even a contradiction. It’s like saying ‘bicycle is a fish.’
‘Most of the world will ignore it once the West loses global dominance.’
I think trans people would rather like being ignored and left to get on with their lives.
‘Further, the failure to recognize equality claims does not equal persecution’
Well, denying people equality is a basic part of persecution, but to that you can add manufacturing hysterical moral panics about them, passing laws against them, targeting them for harassment and abuse and somehow claiming that despite all that noise and effort, they don’t exist.
‘You’ve completely fucked over Western civilization AND America in your zeal, to boot.’
Yeah, see, claiming trans people are bringing down America and all of Western Civilisation? That’s at once fucking stupid, and at the same time part of a hate campaign.
‘Instead of wasting any more of my time, read the actual case.’
Well there’s the actual case, and then there’s the Other Case that can be pieced together from outraged comments like yours. Not the same.
The idea of people being trasngender is predicated upon transgenderism, which is in turn predicated upon conceptions of gender and sex. Trans is a sociological phenomenon only to the extent of these conceptual and ideology beliefs, coupled with people’s mental afflictions. Trans as such isn’t a purely biological phenomenon---and couldn’t be, on the trans community's own terms, given its views about gender. Hence, trans is an ideology.
The trans community, furthermore, is on jihad for its claimed legal rights (including medical privileges), for claimed social and institutional normalization, and for claimed status. They do not want to be left alone at all.
Deconstruct your essentialist conception of equality, Ingsoc. Understand that equality is also a spectral concept. Appreciate, also, that all your concepts, including your moral ones, are social constructs. So, continue to pull the rug out from underneath the hegemonic culture in the West and watch what happens to your claims of equality and inclusivity, Soylent-green-to-be. The rest of the world’s culture will not indulge your gender fantasies—let alone claims of sexual orientation equality for evolutionary duds. A world led by Africa, the Islamic world, and China will not indulge trans and will not tolerate gays, let alone treat gays has having equal rights.
You’re a vapid, hypocritical bigot who lacks a basic understanding of logic.
Most importantly, it’s abundantly clear that you STILL haven’t read the recent 63(12) case (or its predecessors), and nor do you even care to do so. You don’t CARE that you don’t know what you’re talking about. It’s just anti-Trump flatulence out of your mouth—even though what I repeatedly flag are the rule of law problems with this case. Kapeesh, uneducated barbarian?
GDP of Africa: $3.1 trillion. GDP of the U.S.: about $27 trillion. Yeah, real worried about Africa leading the world.
No, the sad part is: Sarcastr0 is a self-described US government bureaucrat. I don't think the Russians need more bureaucrats.
'The idea of people being trasngender is predicated upon transgenderism, which is in turn predicated upon conceptions of gender and sex'
This is like saying 'the idea of stones is predicated upon geology which is in turn predicated upon conceptions of pebbles and stones.'
'Hence, trans is an ideology.'
You actually don't know what either word means, do you?
'The trans community, furthermore, is on jihad'
On those terms every single group in every single society is on a jihad, it's meaningless.
'They do not want to be left alone at all.'
Yeah, if they really wanted to be left alone, they'd just ignore the way they're being demonised and harassed and abused and having laws passed against them.
'So, continue to pull the rug out from underneath the hegemonic culture in the West'
Yes, thinking it's bad to persecute trans people is pulling the rug out etc.
'A world led by Africa, the Islamic world, and China will not indulge trans and will not tolerate gays, let alone treat gays has having equal rights.'
Talk about essentialist, but even if it were true, why would you gloat about the suppression of LGTBQ people?
'You’re a vapid, hypocritical bigot who lacks a basic understanding of logic.'
You are saying that trans people standing up for themselves will bring about the fall of western civiliasation and whatever replaces it will suppress trans people, therefore trans people should let themselves be suppressed, and you claim that's logic.
'it’s abundantly clear'
Spotting that you hadn't actually read the judgement really struck a nerve, huh?
‘This is like saying ‘the idea of stones is predicated upon geology which is in turn predicated upon conceptions of pebbles and stones… You actually don’t know what either word means, do you?’.
LOL. You ought to have studied basic logic instead of wasting your time on superficial political theory. (And, ironically enough, you’ve betrayed your lack of understanding of what essentialism is.)
Africa will be 40% of the world’s population in the coming decades. Today’s GDP metrics are thus meaningless for understanding the world’s future.
And why would I be bothered by the failure of unequal evolutionary duds in their efforts to foist their values, their claims of equality and normalcy, upon the various peoples of the world? Do you not think the brown, black, and yellow people of this world have every right to make their own laws and to stand up for their own various cultures and values—including in thinking that their religious or other values trump the gays’—false—equality claims? (It’s not just religiously motivated either: China ain’t going to do so either.)
Anyway, Ingsoc, keep focusing on the trans issue because you’ve not only established you know nothing about the NY law or case at hand but also that you don’t give a shit about what the case is even about either. Continue to be an apologist for the rampant abuse of law because Orange Man bad. (It’s a civil action, not the prosecution a crime, since you’re too lazy and dishonest to learn anything about it.)
‘And, ironically enough, you’ve betrayed your lack of understanding of what essentialism is.’
Oh no. Curse my inevtiable betrayal of my lack of understanding of what essentialism is.
‘Africa will be 40% of the world’s population in the coming decades.’
Ok. We should probably stop heating the planet and turning most of Africa into a desert.
‘of unequal evolutionary duds’
What sort of essentialism is this?
‘Do you not think the brown, black, and yellow people…China ain’t going to do so either.)’
Some of them will be trans people and they will have friends and family and there will be other people who are fundamentally decent, so maybe you shouldn’t be telling them what they’re going to choose, but perhaps a better point would be why should I care, I don’t shape my ethics or opinions based on future projections largely distorted by bigotry and culture war obsessions. You really wander far afield in your reactionary crankery: 'I hate trans people because in a future world they will be oppressed by evil non-white people, so I'm getting in early on that action.'
‘keep focusing on the trans issue because you’ve not only established you know nothing about the NY law’
I can think persecuting trans people is bad AND that Trump is a crook, it’s not difficult.
Given that the state is seeking to outlaw negotiation in its entirety --- well, I hope the last business to depart the dying husk that is NYC turns off the lights behind them.
the state is seeking to outlaw negotiation in its entirety
This kind of ridiculousness should eventually collide with reality and lose.
But by that time damikesc will have moved on to some other ridiculous thing, and have put his whole self into whatever that nonsense is, and this won't even be remembered.
Do you know how you DO negotiations?
One side puts forth what they view the value of their property/good is. The other side provides their value. They then negotiate.
This is now "fraud" in the eyes of NY, officially.
No, that's utterly nonsense. You do not negotiate over the correct valuation; this is a factual question.
NY businesses are not going to see this as criminalizing negotiation. NY is not going to fall into a dying financial ruin. Your prediction is silly and will never come to pass.
But by the time that becomes clear, you'll be furiously claiming the 14th Amendment has a hidden 'no girls' clause or something and your passion about this will not even be a memory.
You don’t negotiate over valuations? You should send a memo to corporate America, but you’re sure going to put a damper on M&A’s
Fine, I was too broad. But this is not a bidding war or an M&A.
The valuation is a statement of fact from Trump, it is not an opening bid.
And no amount of game playing semantics will change that baseline fact of how the process works.
'And no amount of game playing semantics will change that baseline fact of how the process works'.
Exactly. Trump's statements of property values, as attested to by practitioners, bankers, and others, fell squarely within standard practice. This, in turn, is why no honest person can take seriously Governor Hochul's claims about Trump's actions being sufficiently distinguishable in any meaningful way, such that 63(12) wouldn't or shouldn't be applicable to countless other businesses and individuals.
This is a empirical claim, a matter of fact, about social practices, i.e., the valuations and negotiation practices in that particular state. So, if you want to double down and deny it, feel free to make yourself look even more like an ass than you already do.
No, he lied, up and down the place, all over, he lied, lied, lied.
They ALL do, as a matter of course. That's the point, you fool. That's why Hochul's claim is incredible.
Notice that I didn't defend that American/NY social practice either.
Well, let's see, there's evidence that Trump lied and falsified figures. There's no evidence that 'they all' lie and falsify figures. So, you're not defending the American/NY social practice. Just Trump's.
Sure. You not only know what every single person in Europe, China, etc. is thinking, but you also know the practices of all real estate developers.
Ha! No evidence!
Lol. You really didn't read the case. Keep doubling down, though.
Ok, I really have to go. Ttyl, totalitarian imbecile.
Are you claiming the case contained evidence that 'they all' do what Trump did? You really are reading a completely different case that presumably exists somewhere between dreaming and waking.
Keep demonstrating to other readers here that you not only know nothing about this case or its mechanics, or about the social practices on the ground.
Keep lying, every time. It shows that you're just like Trump.
Just like Trump in that I read the judgement and actually know what Trump did?
Actually, I wonder if Trump even did that.
'or about the social practices on the ground.'
I get that the argument is 'everyone does it therefore Trump should be allowed to get away with it,' but it's not much of an argument on any level.
Are you finished? Any other negotiating tips you’d care to share from your copy of “Confessions of a Retarded Negotiator”?
Confessions Of A Negotiator For Whom Falsification Is Normal.
"No, that’s utterly nonsense. You do not negotiate over the correct valuation; this is a factual question."
Are you insane?
How do you provide a "factual" valuation for real estate? ALL you have are speculative assumptions as to its value. You do not have a factual price until the moment is sold...and it ceases being a factual price the moment afterwards.
Can you provide a "factual" value of, say, your house? How would you do so, because I've never met anybody even remotely tied to real estate who could do so.
It's why appraisers exist.
You start by not lying and falisifying. Unless you'reTrump, then you start by doing those things.
Bank: "Please list all your assets."
Trump: "I own the Trump Tower, Mar-a-Lago, Bedminster golf club, and the Empire State Building."
NY: "He violated the law by saying he owned the Empire State Building, when he does not in fact do so."
RetardedMAGApeople: "That wasn't a lie! It was a negotiation!"
Yes. Hint: not by lying.
There were no fucking "negotiations" at issue here. For one thing, loan applications aren't "negotiations." For another, you don't negotiate over facts. For a third, the lies that were actually at issue were after the loans had already been issued.
Read what was determined to constitute 63(12) violations, i.e, what was classified as fraud per its expansive definition. Find out whether those are standard practices in NY. (Hint: they are.) Read the expert witness’ remarks.
American asshole: your sanctimonious douchebaggery is inversely proportionate to your knowledge.
The language, moreover, is called ‘English’. It’s not called Yankee Doodle dipshittery. Your country did not create the language and does not have a monopoly over it.
I think we can feel quite confident that you did not read any expert witness remarks.
I did. Bartov’s particularly.
What did you make of his, particularly? Answer precisely.
It's not clear to me whether you're claiming to have read his trial testimony or just his affidavit/expert report. I have reviewed but not read every word of the several hundred pages of the former, but news coverage of it suggested that (as it should) it essentially echoed the latter. And the latter was a joke. He doesn't actually claim that any valuation in the SFCs was actually accurate — something you'd think a supposed valuation expert would do — he just argues that every single lie was immaterial, even though the errors on individual items was large and the cumulative difference on each SFC was several billion dollars. He even goes so far as to claim that Trump's lie about the size and value of his penthouse was actually just a mistake. (You might wonder how he could know that. He can't. He was just paid roughly a million dollars to say, "I believe Donald Trump when he says that." It's also irrelevant; it's not the province of an expert to decide who's telling the truth.) He also argues at points that because Deutsche Bank could've caught the lies, that the lies were not material. That is, needless to say, not how materiality works.
Setting all of that aside, the heart of his expert opinion is that GAAP allows one to make some of the choices Trump made. Perhaps. But GAAP does not allow one to lie about those choices. You can't say that you're valuing something using one method and then use a different method, even if either method would be acceptable under GAAP. GAAP may say, as Bartov claims, that you don't have to rely on an appraisal, but it does not say that you can claim that you don't have an appraisal when you actually do.
What Bartov actually says is that there were many errors rendered in the filings, and, more importantly, that errors of THOSE SORTS are commonplace.
That’s an empirical (sociological/anthropological) claim about business practices in NY.
(Classifying some or all of them as being fraud per this idiosyncratic statute, by contrast, is a legal/normative judgment.)
It’s a potentially falsifiable claim. However, no one in the trial (or outside the courtroom) made any real effort to do so—and for obvious reasons. You can pinpoint/emphasize specific claims about the unit size, the restricted uses of Mar, etc, to try to distinguish Trump’s particular case; but also such efforts to particularize CANNOT suffice to falsify the general empirical claim proffered by the expert.
Bartov’s expert testimony in that regard was not only buttressed by the banks’ own claims about their desire to continue relationships with Trump (granted that that is an inference therefrom), it was also backed up by experts outside the case expressly positing that inclusion of such errors IS INDEED standard fare.
Accordingly, given that the experts and everyone else—save the AG—take it to be standard practice, the idea that 63(12) would not, or should not, be engaged to go after scores of thousands of businesspeople who operate in NY indicates that this is ultra-selective ‘prosecution’, i.e., the weaponization of a regulatory/quasi-criminal law presenting as a quasi-equitable cause of action by the state.
(We can leave aside Bartov’s—basically-accepted—claim about the inherent subjectivity of the valuations, which the AG’s witness only really responded to by essentially claiming that they’re inherently subjective but that subjectivity is somehow bounded.)
The David Nieporent position:
Financially sophisticated consenting adults (Deutsche Bank and Donald Trump) should NOT be allowed to engage in business loans for legal purposes, unless lunatic "judges" give their post-facto approval to the loans.
If the "judge" refuses the approval, then it's a crime, and multi hundred million dollar fines should be levied
We should all remember this when David tells us how critically important it is that tech companies be allowed to censor conservatives because of the tech companies' "free speech rights".
OK, I live in Wisconsin. You might be right that no Wisconsin prosecutor would seek that remedy (at least on a first offense) … but even us Wisconsinites aren’t so dumb as to extrapolate that unusual/irrational leniency to the rest of the world.
Woof. While I agree that the prosecution of Trump in civil court for a victimless crime is nakedly political, the statement by Calabresi about non-prosecution of a drunk driver on their own property is grossly in error.
I think the most cognizable claim has is selective "prosecution", James ran on a platform of getting Trump, and it certainly is not a common case to bring.
We have a system where prosecutors not only are elected, but are elected in partisan elections where the candidates run as representatives of political parties. And then those prosecutors often bring cases for political reasons. Who could've predicted that?
Good point, but it's also clear that this arguably flawed US system of electing prosecutors and judges was not implemented to "get Trump".
Steven, get help. The Illinois bar association can provide local referrals.
this case is not worthy of the legal analysis you have expended on it. it is nothing less that soviet style justice. this case was brought by an AG who campaigned on getting Trump. she looked for a crime to pin on him solely in the hope that she could pile up indictments and convictions in the hope this would discredit him for re-election. The banks had their own due diligence professionals who failed to flag any errors but failed to do so. there was no injury to the market.
Guess she’s not living up to her promise, since she has obtained nary an indictment nor a conviction. Although since the New York Attorney General doesn’t prosecute criminal cases, that shouldn’t come as a huge surprise
Don't interrupt, he's on a roll.
The key here is not "no harm", but "no possibility of harm". It isn't merely that Trump was lucky and was able to repay the loans. It's that the bank would have made the loans whatever Trump had said-- truth, lies, or silence. They were not relying on him.
This is crucial in the remedy part, the disgorgement. Suppose we accept that Trump violated a statute in maknig false statements, even though no harm resulted. The judge said that disgorgement of all profit he made from the loans was appropriate, because you should not profit from illegal behavior. But he did NOT profit from illegal behavior. If he had told the truth, he would have gotten the same loans and made the same profit. So we cannot say that "but for" his violation of the anti-lying law he wouldn't have made the profits.
If Trump gave accurate financial statements, he would have gotten loans at higher interest rates in line with the greater risk the banks were taking on. And therefore he made higher profits as a result of his unlawful misrepresentations, defrauding the banks of their rightful risk premium.
To draw an analogy, if a man takes out a loan with what he promises are diamonds as collateral, and they turn out to be worthless glass, it doesn’t matter if he pays back the loan as agreed. It’s still fraud.
Which kind of fraud? That’s part of the problem here.
Want to render it a crime? Fraud per the criminal law? Then have NY state run a criminal trial, subject to all the regular criminal law standards and procedures.
Want to instead treat it as common law (civil law) fraud? Treat it as being subject to all the regular elements for that tort, and have proper plaintiffs.
Want it to run a civil law equitable fraud action instead? Use the standard elements and find proper plaintiffs.
But you want this Executive Law’s expansive equitable-ish fraud, where the state itself is the plaintiff? Then don’t blend its application with state penal laws (as happened in causes 2-7 in this case). Provide criteria of application for the statute’s expansive (disjunctive) definition of fraud. Don’t feed the world bullshit that the state itself is entitled to a disgorgement remedy (as opposed to damages, etc.)
If you disagree with New York's legislative scheme, you'd be free to vote for legislators who will enact laws you prefer if you were allowed to vote in New York. I know it hurts, not being allowed to migrate to America, but there are healthier ways to cope.
The point is that, in any civilized Western country, 63(12), let alone the manner it was applied in tandem with other laws in this particular case, would be deemed unconstitutional. Within the American constitutional scheme, it violates Due Process in a number of ways.
Does that help, unelected 'leader' of the free world?
That's quite a bold claim. Trump's appeal should be a doddle!
Perhaps if NY hadn't become a banana republic it would be.
I guess we'll have to wait for the Supreme Court to prove its banana republican status to you, then...
It doesn't, if for no other reason than that you have repeatedly proven that you are full of shit about what the rest of the world thinks and does. You are obviously not a lawyer, let alone an American lawyer, so your opinion about how the law operates has as much value as Donald Trump's opinion that pouring water on magnets destroys them.
Do you know what the word ‘proof’ means? Do you know what it would take to prove the proposition in question? You’re a parochial American asshat who knows nothing about the rest of the world; hence, YOUR wholly uninformed views on what much of the world thinks is worthless. Spend some time abroad and ACTUALLY listen to other points of view.
Further, what YOU have written on this blog, about this case, even about 63(12) and its conception of fraud, PROVES that you’re an idiot who doesn’t even know that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about in terms of the laws in question here. You’re clearly a shit lawyer and a mindless ideologue. Forget DT for just one second and analyse the statutory provision and its application here as such.
It’s always less entertaining to respond to you, as opposed to Nige, Randal, etc, because you’re clearly much dumber than them. You’re like a little dog at their feet, desperate for their attention and approval.
'and ACTUALLY listen to other points of view.'
RIP irony.
As an American who has lived abroad for more than 30 years, I tend to share your view of "parochial American asshats".
But don't get me started on "NY Bar" foreign lawyers...
If Trump gave accurate financial statements, he would have gotten loans at higher interest rates in line with the greater risk the banks were taking on
Again, your wish casting is in contradiction the the Bank officers testimony. The said the issued the loans based on the Trump Brand reputation and ignored the paper work and issues the loan on the basis of the reputation.
In essence the bank issued a signature loan with attached collateral.
That is just the fact.
Where on earth are you getting these facts from? Besides your ass, I mean? Which "bank officer" do you think said any of that?
Sworn Testimony. from the Bank,
This was a signature note, with collateral.
Banks, of course, are inanimate objects that cannot testify. Which actual person do you think testified as you claim?
he would have gotten loans at higher interest rates in line with the greater risk the banks were taking on.
do you even know Bank Regulators examine the book of loans to check just such misrepresentations?
There is government regulation concerning such transactions. AFTER the regulators signed off on these particular loans, Engron decided his extensive commercial real estate development experience, found what bank regulators, who's goals is to ferret out exactly what Engron pretends to have happened.
Incredible work just coming up with stuff you want to be true and then imperiously asking 'do you even know?'
All you have is angry confidence. It's pretty clear you don't know the case, don't know the law, don't know the financial practice.
You could read up on the actual ruling, look into what the banks said. But why would you want to do a thing like that?
You chose not to choose being informed. You choose something else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you’ve got MAGA?
It’s patently clear now that YOU don’t know the case and the relevant law! 🙂
Go back to Russia, Tankie.
Is this because I called you a tankie? Lazy.
Gaslighting again, Ingsoc?
And is that because regulars who don't understand what gaslighting means keep accusing Sarc of gaslighting? Bit of a sheep, aren't ya? Picking up vocab from your betters, then your peers.
I started calling him Tankie months ago because he’s Russian and he promotes, for America, a massive social re-engineering that is on par with the Soviet project of constructing a new Soviet Man.
What’s it like knowing that your ideology is falling apart, Ingsoc, and that young people will not believe it?
No, you started calling him tankie because I called you a tankie because you claim to hate America, Trump and Putin and yet you defend Trump, support policies that beneift Putin and clearly wish you were American. It takes more than that to be a tankie, admittedly, but it's more than Sarc is.
Again, there's written evidence of this, on this very blog, you prat.
You're not even really trying. Having a bad day?
Evidence that Sarc IS RUSSIAN? Please, do provide a reference.
Nyet, ya ne tankie!
Dos vadanya!
"Bank regulators" do not "sign off on" "particular loans." This is just more shit you're pulling out of your ass.
They do in his country...
Sarcastro now denies the existence of Bank examiners.
Not sure how Sarcastro got into this discussion, but I'm pretty sure that nobody is denying they exist — just denying that you understand what they do.
I have no comment to Prof. Calabresi’s general arguments, but his citation of foreign law is so woefully bad it calls into question every other claim he makes. First, let’s take a look at the citation given for the New Zealand case, which is given by Prof. Calabresi as ‘ Edwards v. Police, 2 New Zealand Law Review 194 (1994)’. There are several glaring errors with this:
1. NZLR stands for New Zealand Law Reports, not Law Review
2. The Bluebook standards is to cite it as [1994] 2, because it is not the second volume of the NZLR but rather the second overflow book of the volume for 1994.
3. The page of the case is 164, not 194.
4. The court (High Court, or H.C.) should be listed by Bluebook standards, as well as in NZ.
See: http://www.nzlii.org/cgi-bin/LawCite?cit=%5b1994%5d%202%20NZLR%20164
Meanwhile, Prof. Calabresi also claims that in Germany, a law regulating entry into the opticians’ profession would be unconstitutional. That is untrue. Germany has such a law creating licensure for opticians.
See https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/augenoptausbv/BJNR069800011.html
Similarly, Prof. Calabresi claims that laws regulating entry into the profession of opticians would be unconstitutional in South Africa. That is untrue. South Africa has such a law creating licensure for opticians.
See https://www.gov.za/sites/default/files/gcis_document/201501/38426reg10357gon47.pdf
Similarly, Prof. Calabresi claims that laws regulating entry into the profession of operation of tanning salons would be unconstitutional in Israel. That is untrue. Israel has such a law creating licensure for salons, who must, to obtain a license, show that they have complied with the relevant regulations of the Ministry of Health.
See https://www.tnuda.org.il/en/policy-and-legislation/visible-light-and-ultraviolet-light-%E2%80%93-introduction/sun-beds
Similarly, Prof. Calabresi claims that laws regulating entry into the profession of barbers would be unconstitutional in Japan. That is untrue. Israel has such a law creating licensure for barbers as well as hairstylists.
See https://oiea.jp/en/dont-underestimate-japans-cosmetologists-act/
Comparative law requires some level of methodological discipline and research, and I respectfully submit it seems that Prof. Calabresi has not met that standard.
Heres a better hypothetical
3 months ago, wal mart was selling 5 dozen boxes of eggs for $5.99.
Across town the supermarket was selling the same fro 13.99.
This difference in value is fraud?
No, you moron. Supermarkets are not making representations about the value of eggs. (Now, if the eggs were actually Grade B, but the supermarket claimed they were Grade AA — the equivalent of what Trump did — that would be fraud.)
And if they did the false grading multiple times, or not only for eggs, but also for other products, that could be considered "repeated fraudulent or illegal acts or otherwise demonstrat[ing] persistent fraud or illegality in the carrying on, conducting or transaction of business" by the NY Attorney General?
"I don't understand how Trump could have committed fraud"
"Read the judge's decision"
"But how can I trust the decision given that he found that Trump had committed fraud?"
The judge is wrong. And does not know a damned thing about the real estate business.
ALL values are subjective. The only time you can provide an actual price is when it is sold.
I can say something I own is worth $1M because that is the least I'd take to sell it. It matters not what an appraiser thinks it is worth since I know what I will sell it for.
And you think that's what the judge decided?
ALL values are subjective.
That is what fraudsters want you to believe, and there is an element of truth to it but it is not even mostly true.
The reason is comparables. You can compare similar real estate. For example, if midtown Manhattan class A office space is currently being leased at $80/sq ft, a company which owns midtown Manhattan class A office space can’t reasonably report a valuation that assumes it can lease property at $160/sq ft. What they can do – and indeed, will do – is say that “this property has unique characteristics because it’s the only piece of real estate in the world on the northwest corner of 53rd and 6th” and they might get away with a little flexibility - but not 100% more.
Or you own a large resort property which were it zoned for residential use would be worth around say $200mm – because comparables – where other reasonably similar properties sold – using regression models, including hedonic regressions, suggest values between $150mm and $250mm. (FWIW at ne point Trump said Mar-a-Lago was worth $1.7bn.)
But because it may not be used as a residence, and can only be used as a private club, with no ability either to expand or change the zoning, then it cannot be worth anywhere near $200mm, and using standard approaches is valued like any hospitality/resorts business throwing off $Xmm a year, etc. and if that valuation is $30mm, a claim of $200mm is not merely a subjective difference.
Similar arguments apply to residential leases particularly where rent-controlled buildings necessarily will be worth less than buildings lacking such controls.
And if you own property that itself is actually leasing at $80/sq ft, you can't represent to the bank that this specific property is leasing at $160/sq ft.
And if you own property that itself is actually leasing at $80/sq ft, you can’t represent to the bank that this specific property is leasing at $160/sq ft.
Indeed not, but there's an old trick, more often seen in apartment rentals than commercial but I know for a fact was tried in London in the late 80s, which is to offer a rent "vacation" - e.g., 2 months free on the first year - or other longer-term offer - so that the landlord can represent that, yes, they lease at $X, while failing to disclose that the units aren't actually generating $X x12 for the year.
Is that a legal trick, or an illegal trick?
To reiterate a few things:
1) I think it is incredibly significant that he cited a New Zealand case. Do you really think that is where he started looking? The simple fact is that he could not find a U.S. case to support his position. On the other hand, I could very quickly find 20 cases that support Professor Kerr's factual example. Those people were convicted of DUI after being stopped in their driveway.
2) A quick search topped out at over 100 cases - there are far more - where an individual embezzles money, returns it, and then is prosecuted and convicted for embezzlement. This is clearly "no harm, no foul", but they are still in prison.
3) Finally, the argument that there is privity of contract between Trump and the banks is not correct. If the lender defaults, it could involve an FDCI bailout - my money - or would lower the stock price for investors - money out of my pocket. So unless everyone who has funds in an institution which contributes to the FDIC consents, and every stockholder in the partner banks consent, the idea that there is a simply "privity of contract" excuse for fraud is incorrect.
" If the lender defaults, it could involve an FDCI bailout – my money – or would lower the stock price for investors – money out of my pocket."
That did not happen, though. Big on criminalizing potential outcomes?
Do you want to guess how many people are in prison for attempted murder? Or who are convicted of DUI where no one was hurt? Or for making a threat against the President?
All those are criminalizing "only potential bad outcomes."
Did Trump make a threat to the banks?
Not sure how a difference in opinion on real estate valuation has any connection to death threats, but maybe you can explain how they're similar.
Again, you're advocating here the killing of business.
If I say a Coke is worth only $1.00 while a shop says it is worth $1.25 --- who is committing fraud?
damikesc, the issue is engaging in unfair business practices in violation of New York state law. The primary victims are any NY businesses obeying the law while in competition with any of Trump’s hundreds of NY LLCs. Secondary victims are New York consumers living in such a economy-distorting business environment that fair real estate pricing is undeterminable.
The damage NY is trying to deter is a race to the bottom business environment, in which all companies are motivated to skirt the law as table stakes just to engage in a business (which many might consider a fair description of the NYC real estate development business Trump grew up in).
The ends of that are the Jeffrey Skillings and Bernie Ebbers of the world, driving out competition in increasingly risky transactions until doubling-down on every failure finally caught up with them, with the potentially significant societal damage typified by the inevitable collapses of Enron and MCI/Worldcom (indeed, the whole dotcom boom/bust and, more to the point here, the 2008 financial crisis triggered by real estate valuation fraud).
Trump mainly differs from Ebbers and Skilling in being such a small-time thinker whose imagination never extends past 1st order impacts, that most lawsuits against him resulted from trying to screw small businesses and subcontractors. At the same time, most of his own lawsuits were threatened but not filed.
His own major development projects mostly went bankrupt, and he was saved from personal bankruptcy only by an unexpected infusion of cash from his unforeseen success in playing the part of a blustering but successful tycoon (faking only half of that) in a scripted reality TV show.
After the reality TV well went dry, he abandoned actual real estate development efforts in favor of selling his name for suckers to put on stuff other people owned. Which is where he remains today, except the suckers are now called MAGAs.
"Because New York State's civil fraud verdict interferes with Former President Donald Trump's right to run for President"
How does the civil fraud verdict interfere? The fraud judgement is against Trump's business and includes his sons. The former President has fund raising operations for political purposes. The only real issue here is that the former President is using his campaign funds for his defense, and not his own wealth. While I think that is unethical it seems to be allowed. Let the Trump company pay its fines and the Presidential campaign use funds raised for that purpose. The only problem I can see for the former President is that fund raising is down because donors don't like paying his legal bills. Maybe he should have considered that before dipping into the campaign money.
This is surreal. Republicans have been going after illegal action that is victimless for a very long time. Drug users, prostitutes, illegal immigrants, and others. When confronted they bring up the "Rule of Law. If you violate the law there are consequences." But now with Trump their tune changes, but only for him.
Republicans have really abandoned any kind of ideological based positions in favor of more transactional approach to issues. You comment reflects this change. There is not an ideological approach but rather an approach of "how does this affect me".
So very true.
It's because they got tired of "losing".
A fraud case where nobody was defrauded seems a bit much.
But, hey, as long as you don't like who the state is attacking, it is perfectly OK for the state to attack them, amirite?
These are not rules you are going to like long-term.
A rich guy did a crime, seems a bit much to prosecute him.
'These are not rules you are going to like long-term.'
Threatening retaliation - at the end of the day, this is always the giveaway.
The New Zealand thing only confirms that this is an exercise in ChatGPT.
In this case, the consent entered into after one party made allegedly fraudulent representations is questionable. And without the consent of the bank, there is no contract and no privity.
Oh. Look.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24141169.trump-found-fraudulently-boosted-scots-homes-value-200m/
[...] "there is a right to pursue whatever occupation you want to" [...]
In German law-school we say:
Unzureichend argumentiert, 3 Punkte.
Hello pathetic losers:
9 - 0 vs Colorado's BS
5 - 3 with one sitting on the sidelines, and Roberts in in the majority "Go away you pathetic losers. If you want to beat Trump, do it in an election. We won't let you use the Court system"
Read those other cases.
Queen almathea-actually yes but in different words
Quoting the judge who is going to be reversed is not very convincing. And with all due respect, the same goes for the opinion piece noted above.
It casts a wide net indeed. Is any concealment during negotiation covered by the statute?
Like I note above, relying on the judge who presided over this farce is not a convincing argument. And the lack of actual fraud is just one of the outrages in this nonsense.
“faced with clear evidence of a misstatement, a person can always shout that ‘it’s immaterial’”.
yes. And if you can't PROVE that it was "material", then there's no crime, no fraud, and any attempt by the State to claim otherwise, or to make it illegal otherwise, is an illegitimate "crime".
Which is why this is illegitimate kangaroo court bullshit
The definition has no established criteria of application.
Further, when denying that reliance forms an element thereof, judge Engoron cites to a case that CANNOT, and doesn't merely fail to, stand for the proposition in question. This was no mere slip on the judge's part.
Banana republic.
So she admits they specifically targeted Trump and that makes this proper in your eyes. Ever heard the term “Liberal fascist”?
"“I think that this is really an extraordinary, unusual circumstance that the law-abiding and rule-following New Yorkers who are business people have nothing to worry about, because they’re very different than Donald Trump and his behavior,” Hochul responded."
....hmmm, "Trust us. This is just a one time thing" is something governments tend to say and violate on a near-daily basis.
I love that the judge priced Mar-a-Lago at almost half of what it sold for...in 1981.
Fucking clown.
It has to be in the transaction of business, and it has to involve repeated behavior. The state's interest isn't in redressing individual frauds, it is stopping serial fraudsters.
Will no-one think of the oligarchs
And he left out materiality.
And not the only objection to this grossly offensive “process.” The AG would be disbarred if legal ethics existed in NY.
The record clearly shows otherwise. Good thing for him that political show trials don’t rely on facts.
Indeed, the judge both lied AND begged the question viz its relevance to this particular statutory provision.
The record shows no fraud. Just repeating “fraud” like some legal parrot doesn’t establish fraud.
"New York Consolidated Laws, Executive Law - EXC § 63. General duties
The attorney-general shall:"
...not enforce this provision, becuz reasons...
Then Trump will be successful on appeal. Is that a problem?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
I would hope that court cases "specifically target" people who violate their legal duties. What would you propose as the alternative, indiscriminately suing people regardless of what they've done?
Well, did he lock her up?
But I agree that vowing to prosecute the most prominent criminals isn't "selective prosecution".
That you’re an idiot? A joke at rally is not a campaign promise, and in fact no prosecutions of political opponents occurred under Trump. Biden however, well they’re having rather great fun targeting political opponents.
Those other cases, the very existence of which belies Trump's claim?
"Becuz" this is an obnoxious abuse of power used to selectively target a political opponent on a meritless case. "Becuz" we don't want to descent into a lawless police state where prosecutors target the man not the crimes. "Becuz" the AG sh is violating the due process, equal protection, excessive fines, and Bill of Attainder Clauses.
My mistake. More communist than fascist, although the kangaroo court results are probably the same regardless of the label.
Sophistry is bad argumentation.
There are so many ways this is stupid, including the fact that by definition a court case is literally the exact opposite of a bill of attainder.
The *factual finding* was fraud. The record also shows fraud - Trump said the value was something vastly different than what his own experts told him the value was.
So when you find yourself writing ‘clearly’ you should stop and wonder why you felt you needed to add that intensifier.
Here, it seems that you made a bare statement without actual sourcing or quotes from the opinion to back it up, and the clearly is a weak attempt to pretend you don’t need any kind of backup because of how clear it is.
Except you do need backup. Remember, your audience is your yourself, it's other people.
Nope. Actually read them and see why.
Why would any civilized person outside the USA believe that NY’s appeals process will be fair and honest in this case???
What’s wrong with you, Yankee Doodle? Look what that state’s government officials have already stated about the case, as just one example.
You do, Ingsoc. Fondly and sycophantically.
You're just assuming Trump hasn't committed an unusually large number of criminal and civil offences. Despite the evidence to the contrary.
‘A joke at rally’
He was just jokin’ honest that’s why he tried to set the DoJ on her.
What part of "very existence" do you think could possibly be changed by reference to the content of those cases?
It’s almost certain you haven’t read NY's 63(12) cases and how that provision's idiosyncratic definition of fraud works.
Your posturing here is ironic.
You’ve overplayed your hand.
For one thing, the previous cases don’t provide clear criteria of application for 63(12)’s expansive, disjunctive definition. (It’s also indisputable that this judge provided an erroneous citation viz reliance qua potential element, since the citation doesn’t concern 63(12)---Which isn’t to say it necessarily is an element per se, mind you.)
For another, the other cases also don’t blend NY’s penal laws with 63(12) in the way this particular case does.
Thanks for making this so easy! Would you like to continue to betray your ignorance about this some more?
So, the election process is unfair because Trump lost, the court process is wrong because Trump lost, now we eyeing up Appeals court for being wrong. Seems as if the standard or fair and correct is if Trump wins.
Ignorant foreigners probably assume the US legal system is just as corrupt as theirs is. That doesn't make them correct.
yeah, assuming someone is innocent until proven guilty, must be strange concept to you totalitarian pukes. Like a society where crimes, not people are investigated.
Do you think OJ Simpson is innocent?
Hey, stupid: the presumption of innocence means that the burden of proof in a criminal case is on the state, not that the state can't prosecute people because we have to presume they're innocent and innocent people shouldn't be prosecuted.
Innocent until proven guilty is the standard for criminal conviction. The standard for indictment is probable cause. There is obviously enough evidence to support probable cause, or these cases against Trump would not have gotten to the stages they are at now.
The US presumption of innocence is clearly an unfamiliar concept for you, which explains why you keep getting it wrong.
No moron, the question I think you wanted to ask in your little idiotic totalitarian mind, was “do think OJ Simpson was entitled to the presumption of innocence”? To which my retarded totalitarian friend I would answer, yes, actually I do believe OJ Simpson was entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
You're the one sad and mad an oligarch is facing consequences, JASL.
Turns out she hadn't committed any crimes.
Presumption of innocence quickly becomes ‘you’re not allowed to have an opinion, having an opinion is oppressing poor Trump.’
Mooove the goalposts.
Acting like you don't understand the argument doesn't change reality.
Learn to read and stop lying, Ingsoc.
Those aren't the standards for those of us who aren't American and don't live in your banana republic.
Nice try, tough.
Facing consequences through a complete abuse of law and process, Ingsoc.
Licking your chops till you can set up concentration camps and gulags, too? You’re evil, Nige.
It's only abuse if you think rich people are above the law, which you clearly do.
Didn't you hear? Your innocent fraudster is the guy planning the camps.
Learn to stop defending crooked politicians.
It's ONLY???
Logic eludes you, lying fascist pig.
I defend the rule of law, unlike you, you fascist barbarian piglet.
You need to change the subject because you haven't read the case and wouldn't understand it anyway.
Perhaps when you are 800 years-old you'll stop being such a petulant little fascist.
You defend the laws that protect rich people, even if those are unwritten laws of the unverse, the way things are supposed to work.
Is that how long it took you to learn how to stop being a petulant little fascist? Because I'm sorry to say you may need another 800.
Again, you're not even really trying.
Maybe you should take a rest.
No, you're right, I'm not, you don't really require much effort.
Learn to stop defending crooked politicians.
Show us how it's done: stop defending any Democrat, becaues they're all crooked.
In particular, though, you can tell us about all Joe Biden's crimes
Oh, the crimes based on the vapourware evidence of the guy who turned out to be working for Russia? There. Now you know all about them.
‘It’s ONLY???’
I’m sorry if I implied that a rich white-collar criminal getting caught committing a rich white-collar crime and being given a rich white-collar penalty is anything other than a tragedy. I know you’re upset.
Why do you bother responding with such trivialities?
Are you too cowardly to see yourself for what you really are, Ingsoc?
Are you even going to bother to read the case?
You're right, rich people get prosecuted and fined for white collar crimes all the time, then go on to commit more white collar crimes. It's happened to Trump over and over. It is trivial. Not like shoplifting or being an illegal alien, those are fucling HUGE crimes. But if it's such a triviality why are you so upset?
What was the ‘crime’ here? What was the action in question? What area of law does NY’s Executive Law 63(12) fall under? Thanks for betraying your ignorance even more.
You’re an entirely unworthy, inferior, and disingenuous interlocutor. You don’t even care about what this legal case.
Oh my God you haven't even read the judgement. No wonder you're so confused.
This is the best you can muster.
It's boring and pathetic.
Ttyl.
Well it’s pretty fundamental, I can see why you’d think it’s pathetic, and obviously too boring to read, you’re above all that.
Ingsoc, what are the first four words of the first paragraph on page 2 of the judgment. 🙂
FUNDAMENTAL, indeed. Lol.
Are they 'please see other side?'
Ingsoc, you should stick with superficial political science scholarship (and EU propagandizing), rather than wading into law, of which you clearly know nothing.
'EU propagandizing'
That's the sound of a worm, turning.
Your standard of proof is nonstandard. Not many have adopted the 'Greg J believes it and Greg J will never believe anything bad about Trump.'
This is why all you do is make bald proclamations no one is buying.
1) The judge did no such thing. You've never read the opinion.
2) Once again: Trump gave away most development rights to Mar-a-Lago to lower its value (and hence his property tax bill).
You do realize you're championing "show me the man and I'll show you the crime" you do know what that means don't you?
He brought up OJ you blithering idiot. And President Trump is also the victim of thug hack prosecutors leveling bogus criminal charges.
Trump tried to misuse the DOJ? The guy who was the victim of the Hillary created Russian collusion lie taken up by the FBI and DOJ and weaponized against the President with a joke Special Counsel.
Yes, he tried to misuse the DoJ and will try again if he gets the chance.
He asked you if you thought OJ was innocent, not whether the state had to presume him innocent.
And the charges against Trump are all factually supported.
Easy for you to say since you have zero command of the relevant facts and law. What you do have is a hatred of Donald Trump. How about just trying to beat him fairly in an election? Why are you clowns so afraid of elections?
This comment does not respond to the conversation at all - it's just a tantrum.
I'm not sure whether you've lost the thread overnight or just realized how little you have to respond with, but this is basically an admission even you know you've lost the argument.
You do realize that you're just parroting phrases you don't understand, don't you? The state did not begin investigating Trump for bank fraud until Michael Cohen testified to Congress that Trump routinely lied to banks about the value of his properties.
The reality is a Trump's a fraudster. But this isn't even news, he has form.
You do realize that he is a serial liar who has been disbarred. But that's beside the point. You do realize that James has been attacking President Trump since 2017? “I’ve been leading the resistance against Donald Trump in NYC and will only continue to
do so in every way possible.” She and her democrat allies have been conducting a vendetta against trump long before that sleaze Cohen joined the party. In sum, you're just another lying clown who's just fine with the obnoxious lawfare because you don't like Trump. Beyond contempt.
Democrats always project their own wrongs. It's almost a law of nature.
You've pointed out no lies, just calling DMN a liar.
You just say wrong shit and insult people, even when they agree with you.
Are you having fun?
It is indeed beside the point. I wouldn't want to rely on Cohen to secure a verdict against Trump — though in fact career criminals are routinely brought down via the testimony of other career criminals — but James didn't do that. Rather, Cohen's testimony about specific misconduct led her to investigate that particular misconduct. Exactly the opposite of what you're claiming about the whole "show me the man" thing.
You really like to demonstrate, over and over again, that you've no legal training, yeah?
Now *that's* gaslighting, guys.
You really like to just say the same stuff over and over without ever saying anything, yeah?
Greg j thinks that Trump is a narcissistic blowhard who's utterly incompetent at being a political executive, as demonstrated by how corrupt against at the FBI, for example, managed to significantly sabotage his Administration and received no punishment, or even pushback.
But acknowledging that reality doesn't make me a complete f'ing moron, which is what you have to be to believe that ANY of the cases being filed against Trump have even the slightest shred of legitimacy.
I'm not a Trump fan. I'm just not a TDS afflicted delusional moron
Really, Sarcastr0, do tell us about all the non Trump American cases where people were convicted of fraud without any identified victims, or any proof that their "fraud" had any material effect / direct harm to others.
I'll wait.
Let’s just pretend James wasn’t on a crusade against Trump since at least 2017, probably earlier with the rest of the nutburgers and their collusion nonsense. Or maybe you bozos didn't understand that that quote above is from James?
corrupt AGENTS at the FBI