The Volokh Conspiracy
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Court Strikes Down California Ban on Possessing Billy Clubs
From Judge Roger Benitez's decision in Fouts v. Bonta(S.D. Cal.):
This case is about a California law that makes it a crime to simply possess or carry a billy. This case is not about whether California can prohibit or restrict the use or possession of a billy for unlawful purposes…. Historically, the short wooden stick that police officers once carried on their beat was known as a billy or billy club. The term remains vague today and may encompass a metal baton, a little league bat, a wooden table leg, or a broken golf club shaft, all of which are weapons that could be used for self-defense but are less lethal than a firearm….
The court struck down the law on Second Amendment grounds (citing, among other cases, Caetano v. Massachusetts (2016), which suggested that stun guns were constitutionally protected arms). The historical analysis is long and detailed (read it here), but here's the conclusion:
The Second Amendment protects a citizen's right to defend one's self with dangerous and lethal firearms. But not everybody wants to carry a firearm for self- defense. Some prefer less-lethal weapons. A billy is a less-lethal weapon that may be used for self-defense. It is a simple weapon that most anybody between the ages of eight and eighty can fashion from a wooden stick, or a clothes pole, or a dowel rod. One can easily imagine countless citizens carrying these weapons on daily walks and hikes to defend themselves against attacks by humans or animals. To give full life to the core right of self-defense, every law-abiding responsible individual citizen has a constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms like the billy for lawful purposes.
In early America and today, the Second Amendment right of self-preservation permits a citizen to "'repel force by force' when 'the intervention of society in his behalf, may be too late to prevent that injury.'" The Founders of our country anticipated that as our nation matured circumstances might make the previous recognition of rights undesirable or inadequate. For that event, the Founders provided a built-in vehicle by which the Constitution could be amended, but a single state, no matter how well intended, may not do so, and neither can this court.
Alan Beck and Stephen Stamboulieh represent plaintiff.
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How about if someone attacks me with a pointed stick?
If someone attacks you with anything from fists to fingernails you can use whatever level of force you need to repel an attack, and that may vary depending on your own physical capabilities. A physically 35 year old male would probably be pretty limited in what weapons he could used if punched, but could shoot someone with a sharp stick. An 80 year old woman wouldn't have to wait for the first thrown punch if it were a reasonable fear.
Why would I have to resort to fisticuffs if I could just terminate my attacker? This is the reasoning of men well away from the danger.
Why aren't you allowed to kill someone who punches you? That's what you're asking? With a straight face?
Are you demanding with a straight face that the punch-thrower be allowed to kill their victim instead?
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/crime/funeral-man-punched-outside-dc-restaurant-dies-days-later/65-8d967e6e-700a-4949-a75d-65d18614cfc7
https://www.newsweek.com/california-man-dies-after-being-punched-fast-food-restaurant-1555225
Amazing. Not the stories, but that you're willing to put in work to support your lame excuse for your murderous urges.
You don't even try to argue the point, you just throw a name-calling tantrum. Sad.
Homicide is excusable in the following cases:
1. When committed by accident and misfortune, or in doing any other lawful act by lawful means, with usual and ordinary caution, and without any unlawful intent.
2. When committed by accident and misfortune, in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat, when no undue advantage is taken, nor any dangerous weapon used, and when the killing is not done in a cruel or unusual manner.[Cal. PC. sec. 195)
There was a case from 2012 where a man fatally shot an unarmed attacker who had punched him and was engaged in pounding his head into the concrete sidewalk. The jury found the shooter Not Guilty by reason of self-defense.
The case was State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman.
Being young and fit doesn't protect entirely from being killed by a punch: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/may/14/knew-bad-as-soon-as-hit-him-man-who-killed-a-stranger-with-single-punch-then-turned-his-life-around
Nice allusion. Since Kazinski missed the Monty Python reference, and I am in pop culture mode today, here is a snippet of dialog from the sketch:
RSM Right. Now, self-defence. Tonight I shall be carrying on from where we got to last week when I was showing you how to defend yourselves against anyone who attacks you with armed with a piece of fresh fruit.
All (disappointed) Oh.
Second Man You promised you wouldn't do fruit this week.
RSM What do you mean?
Third Man We've done fruit the last nine weeks.
RSM What's wrong with fruit? You think you know it all, eh?
Second Man But couldn't we do something else, for a change?
Fourth Man Like someone who attacks you with a pointed stick?
RSM (scornfully) Pointed sticks? Ho, ho, ho. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me!
I just had to chime in to say this is one of my favorites. I received a box collection of Monty Python's Flying Circus several years ago.
He could put your eye out!
How about if someone attacks you with a piece of fresh fruit?
https://youtu.be/VF9B8eKlkH8
I guess that post Bruen we should all plan on going around armed like Max Rockatansky.
.
The only people likelier to carry weapons post-Bruen are law-abiding persons. Criminals weren’t waiting for Bruen to start carrying weapons. So, assuming you’re a law-abiding person, Bruen does not affect your need to carry weapons one way or another.
You dont neeeeeed an extra capacity billy club. A 10 inch billy club for self defense is all a civilian needs.
How about a motorized, fully-automatic billy club?
With a chain saw attachment.
I'd be fine with a bayonet.
Matt "Daredevil" Murdock (speaking of lawyers) was pleased.
More lethal. Less lethal. Just lethal enough.
Whatever it takes to multiply the risk of encountering armed civilian violence, right? Thank god that with Glocks authorized, folks with choices can compete among other deadly options. Some will be beautifully crafted to carry as fashion accessories, and command high prices. Enjoy the romance of civilian violence in all its dystopian forms.
Note also the convenience this decision affords muggers, to stay lethally armed, without running afoul of any gun regulations at all. What fun it will be when everyone you see on the street carries a club, and gun nuts respond to conclude that with no way to tell which will be muggers, concealed carry has become a practical necessity for everyone, in every public encounter.
This decision shows political rationalism doing its very worst to degrade the experience of daily life.
Trying to understand whether you are sarcastic, or dumb enough to think a law against billy clubs prevents muggers from going armed to take property by force.
Spoiler: He's dumb enough.
dwb68, compared to the converse—a law to encourage billy clubs—a law against them will prevent a great many muggers from going armed to take property by force. Deadly force, actually, of the sort which can only goad another escalation in the civilian arms race to carry firearms in response.
Given the U.S. policy on gun carrying, every increase in violent capacity, however achieved, will play out as an increase in gun prevalence. If that results in an urban society in which nearly everyone meeting for every purpose, or by happenstance, is armed with either a club or a gun, and none has any hint whether the other's weapon is carried with aggressive intent, three bad things will happen:
1. There will be more instances of deadly violence commenced by mistake;
2. The law will adjust to the new prevalent violence level, and tailor norms to excuse needless deaths among innocents—there will be more instances where hair-trigger violence gets construed as reasonable self-defense;
3. Physically weaker members of society—including nearly all women—will mostly be forced into lives of seclusion, but to escape seclusion a few will make the unwise choice to carry a gun everywhere in a violent society.
In short, you will get a civil society resembling that of Afghanistan under the Taliban.
That is an argument based on demonstrable experience. The pro-weapons arguments to the contrary are based on nothing more than poor-quality rationalism.
Stephen, that is complete nonsensical fantasy! A law against billyclubs will prevent - anything? Ha, ha, ha. We already have such laws, including until recently in CA, and they prevent nothing.
This dystopian vision you present is the stuff of science fiction, not our current reality.
None of your idiot delusions have come to pass, and yet you keep pronouncing the end of society is just around the corner.
Perhaps you should see a therapist, Chicken Little.
Cavanaugh, right. No blood in the streets. None at all.
States with strong gun laws show the lowest rates of gun-related violence.
States with weak gun laws show the highest rates of gun-related violence.
In both cases, there are outlier exceptions, which confuse the picture. But the general statements remain true and accurate, despite the exceptions. None of the exceptions carries a state to the opposite extreme in terms of violent outcomes. No state among the ones with weak gun laws is numbered among states with the lowest rates of gun violence. No state with strong gun laws is numbered among states with the highest rates of gun violence.
Don’t actually know the answer to this, genuinely curious: ignore the gun related part. Of course places with more guns has more gun related incidents. Not contested really, but Idk if it is relevant.
What about violence in general? Can you show looser gun laws means more violence, without the qualifier?
As a general proposition, violence committed other than with guns is less likely to be fatal than violence committed with guns.
Guns don’t kill people. Gunshot wounds kill people.
Tell that to Nicole Simpson
You didn't respond to the question being asked.
"What fun it will be when everyone you see on the street carries a club, and gun nuts respond to conclude that with no way to tell which will be muggers, concealed carry has become a practical necessity for everyone, in every public encounter."
The old man continued yelling at the clouds by which he was offended until the nurse came to take him back inside.
Everybody's Lying About the Link Between Gun Ownership and Homicide
There is no clear correlation whatsoever between gun ownership rate and gun homicide rate. Not within the USA. Not regionally. Not internationally. Not among peaceful societies. Not among violent ones. Gun ownership doesn’t make us safer. It doesn’t make us less safe. A bivariate correlation simply isn’t there. It is blatantly not-there. It is so tremendously not-there that the “not-there-ness” of it alone should be a huge news story...
https://hwfo.substack.com/p/everybodys-lying-about-the-link-between
From later in that essay:
Heh. (The essay makes it very clear that the latter statement is totally indefensible on statistical grounds as well as bigotry grounds.)
"States with strong gun laws show the lowest rates of gun-related violence.
States with weak gun laws show the highest rates of gun-related violence."
You know, Stephen, I don't think that's so, or at least it's a "lie with statistics," since "states" is a pretty coarse sort. I can't back it up at the moment, but I have looked into it before. It turns out that if you you select a finer sort, like cities, you will find that the cities which have the strongest gun laws have the highest rates of gun-related violence. Chicago, D.C., NYC, St. Louis come to mind.
I'll have to go back and look again.
As Circleglider's linked essay notes, you achieve correlations like this by playing with the definition of "gun-related violence". Suicide with a gun is correlated with gun ownership rates, for much the same reason that suicide by jumping off tall buildings is correlated with having tall buildings around. If you're going to commit suicide you use what's available.
But we know that gun ownership doesn't cause suicide, because the correlation is actually between buying your FIRST gun, and suicide, not between OWNING a gun and suicide. And the correlation is only strong for a few weeks, and dies off to nothing after a few months.
Direction of causality: Buying a gun doesn't cause suicide, intending to commit suicide causes buying a gun.
But we know that gun ownership doesn’t cause suicide, because the correlation is actually between buying your FIRST gun, and suicide, not between OWNING a gun and suicide. And the correlation is only strong for a few weeks, and dies off to nothing after a few months.
Quite right. Depressed people who buy guns to commit suicide tend not to be long-term gun owners.
Whats depressing is your peevish fetish with gun prohibition prevents you from seeing that Canada, France, UK, and Japan all have the same or higher suicide rates as the US. In the US, half of suicides are by gun. The other half are by ropes and drugs. Gun suicide is a largely male phenomena, while ropes and drugs are largely a female phenomena. A small subset of the violently suicidal decide to take as many people with them as they can. Almost to a one, mass shooters have been mentally unstable. In Australia and Japan, mass arson is a thing.
Sad to me that you are stuck in this feedback loop of True Belief Zealotry that you cant see the world is round.
People who are mentally ill need help, and therapy, not gun (or billy club) control.
That's true, but the actual point is that people who buy guns for any purpose other than to kill themselves, are not any more likely to commit suicide than anybody else.
But they are notably more likely to shoot innocents than people who do not buy guns.
Another Old-Man truthism!
My understanding is that people who want to shoot innocents typically steal the firearms.
Keep yelling at those clouds!
If you guys keep riling him up he's going to be forced to tell the same anecdotes again about how people brandished guns against him three times in his life, and how none of this was about crime and therefore studies showing self-defense by brandishing must all be false.
As usual, Nieporent's account of my commentary is wildly inaccurate, although closer in this instance than usual. There is some factual basis for part of what he says, he omits only about half of what he should include, and he misrepresents my basis to critique defensive gun use statistics. On the whole, a better-than-average sampling of Nieporent's unaccountable pique.
I wonder what the rate of gun-related violence is in Vermont or New Hampshire.
So the current law actually prevents muggers from carrying clubs, sticks, or baseball bats?
Read the first sentence of the OP.
I won't tell you what we call "Billy Clubs" in the South
"Knockers", but not the good kind.
The good old days, when a billy club was the most dangerous weapon in a fight.
I’d even settle for the West Side Story days, when it was a switchblade.
Well, then maybe we should start cracking down on gangs, and taking youth criminality seriously again. Because the dirty little secret here is that most of this violence is criminal on criminal. And criminals don't obey gun laws, or knife laws, or even Billy club laws.
You want less violence?
Crack down on gangs.
Stop sealing juvenile records.
Three strikes and you're out, and make incapacitation the goal of our penal system, because rehabilitation doesn't seem to work.
Try to do something about single parent families.
Rendering potential victims defenseless is about the last thing you'd do.
In West Side Story, a billy club was not a switchblade.
West Side Story was also set in the 1950s, and several more deadly weapons come to mind that were widely used in the preceding decade, to say nothing of the weapons that were used in preceding millennia that were more deadly than both billy clubs and switchblade knives.
He meant that in West Side Story the most dangerous weapon was a switchblade, not a billy club. Not that switchblades WERE billy clubs.
"Ice has taken over as leader of the Jets. He tells them they will have their revenge on the Sharks, but must do it carefully ("Cool"). Anybodys appears from infiltrating the Sharks' turf and warns the Jets that Chino is now after Tony with a gun."
See imdb
That is correct, Chino shoots Tony both in the stage and movie version. But notably (I guess) they didn't bring guns to the rumble.
In the UK the equivalent concern is about knife violence, which is increasing again after dipping during Covid. Let's just say that the portrayal of the effects of knife violence in the US 1950s wasn't an especially accurate one. The reality isn't quite as romantic.
(Gun violence is still present, but at 1/10 the level of knife violence doesn't attract much attention--with nearly all guns banned already, there aren't too many more laws that can be passed...)
captcrisis, you would be wise to do that. With access to widely available species of especially dense, stiff, and hard tropical woods, it is trivial to make a wooden club deadlier than a switchblade, but not much larger. You can do it with a wood species available for sale in the decking market across the United States.
Or a tire-checker, for sale in most truck stops.
"When a billy club was the most dangerous weapon in a fight" -hasn't been true since the invention of the spear.
What does this say about all other kinds of 'primitive' weapons? Should they be covered by the 2nd Amendment, too?
"While the most serious weapons offenses involve guns, Massachusetts law prohibits the possession of other potentially dangerous weapons. For example, it is against the law to carry a switchblade knife, double-edged knife, brass knuckles, certain throwing weapons, blowguns and blackjacks."
"As of this writing, only four states specifically outlaw nunchucks, which may also be listed as "nunchaku." They are: Arizona, California, Massachusetts and New York. However, nunchucks are not necessarily legal in the other 46 states. Nunchucks consist of two metal, hard plastic or wooden sticks.Mar 21, 2019"
Why?
They always seemed to cause more damage to the Nun-chucker.
A couple of years ago I was at the Houston NRA convention right after Uvalde (out of personal curiosity). I came upon a booth selling brass knuckles, silencers, and Brandon/Dixie flag switchblades. I said to the merchant, 'Aren't all these illegal?'. He says, 'No. A few years back Texas legalized all of them.' The people around me started to nod their heads happily and exclaimed lots of 'Yeps!' and 'That's right!'s.
Ignoring the idea that the Texas legislature felt it a priority to legalize brass knuckles, I thought to myself, 'But these are the tools of killers and assassins. They were illegal for a reason.'
Yet these gleeful people around me (and indeed the entire convention) made me realize that this is all just a weapons fetish and nothing more
Killers and assassins use what is convenient. It's not like a switchblade is a fully automatic assault knife that gets banned because it is unusually deadly.
Any weapon that is useful to a criminal is useful to an innocent seeking to protect themselves. Such it is with clubs, saps, brass knuckles, and so on.
Hobie, it is what you say, but it also aims toward political intimidation, a vigilante movement, and a nascent insurrection. Much of the satisfaction you observe stems from those motives, more than from satisfaction of a fetish. That should not be reassuring. Fetishists are far less dangerous than the others.
Why are you so bothered by the fact that the American people, if pushed far enough by the government, have the ability to push back? Is it that you want the government to be able to push us around limitlessly, to have total power over us, to be able to ride roughshod over us at will? I shudder at the thought of what folks like you will do if you ever succeed in disarming Americans...
"it also aims toward political intimidation, a vigilante movement, and a nascent insurrection"
Wrong. The weapons preclude political intimidation.
Kleppe, a benighted premise indeed. Controversy is posited. The alternatives include dialogue or violence. The side winning the dialogue has no need to resort to violence. It will be the losers who resort to armed intimidation, trying to gain at least an end to the losing dialogue, if not its violent suppression.
It will sometimes happen that those without hope of prevailing otherwise will reach for weapons while proclaiming themselves attacked. The history of the American Civil War examples that as clearly as does the recent assault on the U.S. Capitol.
"I thought to myself, ‘But these are the tools of killers and assassins. They were illegal for a reason.’"
A perfect illustration of the principle that, "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
I kept silent the entire time I was there. Besides, what's the point of comment amid all that foolishness
"I kept silent the entire time I was there."
And I was commending you for that.
A switchblade is just a knife with a mechanized safety feature. Brass knuckles are just hand-protectors. Silencers are hearing protection devices.
None of these objects harm anyone, nor do they cause anyone to commit a crime. Arguably, they make it easier or more practical to commit certain crimes, but as we know with firearms themselves, the vast majority of uses of these "scary" objects would be benign.
They were illegal because legislators decided to make them illegal; in many cases (I'm thinking here mainly about things like nunchuks and throwing stars), the logical connection between the legislation and the likely potential harm has never been (and never will be) established.
Obviously, there is fetishism, but that is true for many things people do.
They've always been legal if they're called "Brass Paperweights" And you need the quality ones that have the grip thingy that goes in your palm or you'll do more damage to your own knuckles. Don't ask how I know that.
Laws against billy clubs made some sense when hardly anyone was armed with a gun. A billy was an offensive weapon.
These days, bad guys and good guys alike often have a gun, making the billy club laws look silly. They're basically not a real offensive weapon any more. Trying to rob someone with a billy is likely to get the robber killed.
That leaves some valid defensive usage of billys, particularly against the threat of dogs or coyotes.
These days, bad guys and good guys alike often have a gun, making the billy club laws look silly.
A non-sequitur to anyone who enjoys agency to decide who to attack, when and where.
On one of my young birthdays, got the gift of a Bullwhip. Not really sure why, but we were living in Omaha Nebraska which had a huge Stockyard, so probably came from one of the many "Flea Markets" where most of my presents came from (I was 16 before I realized Comic Books had Covers) Being literally born on the 4th of July, my birthday was usually combined with the Beer/Burgers/Hotdogs/Fireworks of Uncle Sammie’s party. I’d play with it after School, practice hitting soda bottles. One day 3 Hoodlums tried to take it away, secret is, always be whipping. ALWAYS be whipping, ALWAYS, be whipping. I think they’re still running.
Frank
Not even that well-written. They banned "batons" without defining them. They could ban "feebleveetzers" and whenever a police officer decided you had a feebleveetzer ijn your home, arrest. Even worse, California cited a bunch of laws that banned slaves and free blacks from possessing clubs as evidence. Progressive through and through!