The Volokh Conspiracy
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The "Migrant Crisis" is Caused by Flawed Work and Housing Policies, not Migrants
The difficulties some cities are experiencing arise because many migrants aren't allowed to work, and because of restrictions on construction of new housing.

In recent months, many politicians and media outlets have focused on the "migrant crisis" in various cities, supposedly caused by the arrival of large numbers of asylum seekers. Many of these migrants cannot support themselves, and end up taking up shelter space or living on the streets. In a recent Atlantic article (unfortunately, paywalled), Jerusalem Demsas explains why the supposed crisis is in reality a product of flawed government policies, rather than migration, as such:
When the mayor of New York, of all places, warned that a recent influx of asylum seekers would destroy his city, something didn't add up.
"I said it last year when we had 15,000, and I'm telling you now at 110,000. The city we knew, we're about to lose," Eric Adams urged in September. By the end of the year, more than 150,000 migrants had arrived. Still, the mayor's apocalyptic prediction didn't square with New York's past experience. How could a city with more than 8 million residents, more than 3 million of whom are foreign-born, find itself overwhelmed by a much smaller number of newcomers?
In another legendary haven for immigrants, similar dynamics were playing out. Chicago has more than 500,000 foreign-born residents, about 20 percent of its population, but it has been straining to handle the arrival of just 35,000 asylum seekers in the past year and a half. Some people have even ended up on the floors of police stations or in public parks. Mayor Brandon Johnson joined Adams and a handful of other big-city mayors in signing a letter seeking help with the "large numbers of additional asylum seekers being brought to our cities."
Sometimes the best way to understand why something is going wrong is to look at what's going right. The asylum seekers from the border aren't the only outsiders in town. Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine brought a separate influx of displaced people into U.S. cities that quietly assimilated most of them. "We have at least 30,000 Ukrainian refugees in the city of Chicago, and no one has even noticed," Johnson told me in a recent interview.
According to New York officials, of about 30,000 Ukrainians who resettled there, very few ended up in shelters. By contrast, the city has scrambled to open nearly 200 emergency shelters to house asylees from the Southwest border.
What ensured the quiet assimilation of displaced Ukrainians? Why has the arrival of asylum seekers from Latin America been so different? And why have some cities managed to weather the so-called crisis without any outcry or political backlash? In interviews with mayors, other municipal officials, nonprofit leaders, and immigration lawyers in several states, I pieced together an answer stemming from two major differences in federal policy. First, the Biden administration admitted the Ukrainians under terms that allowed them to work right away. Second, the feds had a plan for where to place these newcomers. It included coordination with local governments, individual sponsors, and civil-society groups. The Biden administration did not leave Ukrainian newcomers vulnerable to the whims of Texas Governor Greg Abbott, who since April 2022 has transported 37,800 migrants to New York City, 31,400 to Chicago, and thousands more to other blue cities—in a successful bid to push the immigration debate rightward and advance the idea that immigrants are a burden on native-born people.
Demsas is largely right here. Ukrainians admitted under the Uniting for Ukraine (U4U) program have not caused any controversy in cities largely because they are allowed to immediately start working, and thereby can support themselves and contribute to our economy. By contrast, asylum seekers aren't eligible to apply for work permits for six months, and even then it often takes the federal immigration bureaucracy a long time to actually issue them.
What is true for Ukrainians is also true of Cubans, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans, and Haitians admitted under the "CNVH" program - an extension of the U4U model to a combine total 30,000 migrants per month fleeing oppression and violence in those four countries. Several hundred thousand people have entered the US under the CNVH program. But, like the Ukrainians, they have immediate work authorization, and therefore turn out to be an asset to cities, not a burden.
As Demsas explains, the federal government should abolish the six-month rule and let asylum-seekers work legally from day one. The Biden Administration has taken this step for many Venezuelans already in the US. But it needs to expand work authorization to other asylum seekers.
I do think Demsas gets one point wrong here. For the most part, it is not true that "the feds had a plan for where to place" U4U participants. The program requires each migrant to have a US sponsor. But, beyond that, the federal government makes little or no effort to control where and how they live.
I myself am a sponsor in the U4U program, and have advised other sponsors and migrants. Generally speaking, the migrants decide for themselves where they are going to settle in the US. Sponsors advise, but do not dictate. I now have eight Ukrainian sponsorees. To my knowledge, never once has a federal official attempted to plan where they live and work, or even offered advice on that subject.
Instead of planning and controlling, U4U mostly lets the market and civil society work. That, I think, is the real key to its success. While I don't myself have CNVH sponsorees, I know people who do; that program seems much the same.
Demsas also notes that, even when it comes to asylum seekers, the dfficulties encountered in New York and Chicago have largely been avoided in cities like Houston and Miami, even though the latter also have experienced recent influxes. What's the difference between these cases? I don't know for sure. But a major factor is likely that the cities with serious problems also tend to have highly restrictive zoning rules, which make it difficult or impossible to build housing in response to demand. I have previously noted this issue in the case of New York.
By contrast, Houston is famous for not having zoning at all (thereby making housing construction easy, and housing itself very affordable). And Miami is at least less restrictive than cities like New York and Chicago.
In New York, housing issues have been exacerbated by the city's ill-advised free shelter guarantee, which incentivizes both migrants and poor natives to seek out free housing at public expense. New York would be well-advised to end the guarantee, while simultaneously ending exclusionary zoning rules that block new housing construction.
It is also true, as Demsas notes, that Texas Gov. Greg Abbott's migrant busing program - which has heavily targeted New York and Chicago - has caused disruption in those cities:
When immigrants make their way to a city in an organic fashion, they usually are drawn to a place where they have family ties, job leads, or other connections and resources available….
That's very different from the haphazard Texas busing program. When Abbott's buses arrive at their destinations, many of them are filled with people who had specific plans to go somewhere else. Cities then re-ticket many of the passengers. The mayor of Denver told me that roughly 40 percent of asylees who are bused into his city have no intention of staying there.
Abbott should stop the busing program, and instead let migrants choose their own destinations and pay their own way. In addition to increasing the migrants' economic productivity (thereby boosting the US economy) and reducing disruption in New York and Chicago, it would also save Texas taxpayers money. The state has spent some $148 million busing migrants to other parts of the country.
In sum, the "migrant crisis" is largely caused by a combination of perverse federal, state, and local policies that bar asylum seekers from working legally, artificially restrict housing construction, and bus migrants to places other than where they actually want to go. Migrants who enter by programs that avoid these obstacles don't cause any crises. Indeed, they are actually assets to the economy. If governments want to end the "crisis," for the most part they need only get out of the way.
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Who'd'a thunk it?
This is just a hint of the real problem.
It's bizarre that government forbids them working while providing living expenses and shelter. Only a damn fool could not see how completely wrong that is.
When their source country is lousy with dictatorship and corruption, and you can hardly make a move without a legion of folk demanding kickbacks, few bother besides subsistence efforts, and the economy is a dog.
Come here and live free of those impediments, and make a better life for yourself and your family. But these folk are seen as nothing other than votes, or vote-adjacent, by both parties, who use them as tools for such, one way or the other, shifting slowly over the decades.
My beef with Republicans is obvious: Trump is the opposite of this. This is the Bernie Sanders/Ceasar Chavez view of economics. My beef with Democrats is more subtle. They do this for the wrong reason, so they can win elections and ladle more burdens on the economy.
In an economically free economy, the more, the better.
Talk to a Democrat working on immigration. These people are not just votes.
Heck the GOP is vastly more hostile to them than their just being votes.
Plus….they can’t vote. What the heck is vote adjacent?
You are writing a whole ass novel about politics that has little relation to the motives of actual real world people doing or even talking about politics.
Actually they are…it’s why Obama rescinded wet foot dry foot on his way out the door in January 2017.
Of course they're not just votes. They're distorted apportionment and cheap labor, too.
Of course. And the stated motives of both sides are just lies.
Dammit that cheap labour and distorted apportionment rightly belongs to prisons.
Not just votes? In time indirectly and of course some illegally do now. But an additional and maybe more immediate benefit to the Democrats is demographic power. How do you think Congressional districts are apportioned? Think maybe the mass number of illegals are helpful for increasing Democrat controlled Congressional districts? And aside from the vast drain on resources posed by mass illegal immigration, there are serious health and safety concerns as well, which are ignored in a purely economic analysis.
If you're going to posit illegal aliens policy on the Democratic side is driven by them voting fraudulently, you should bring some evidence.
You're making up motives for your opponents. That's fun and all, but it's pretty corrosive to actual political discource.
If you’re going to posit opinions on my comment try reading it first. Democrats are motivated by power. Large illegal populations enable large and more democratic congressional districts, apart from the illegal voting. And the dangers to the health and safety of American citizens are the subject of news headlines every day.
Large illegal populations enable large districts; they are not distributed in areas of Democratic strength that I am aware of.
Has it occurred to you that another way to keep and gain power is to please coalitions, and there is are groups the Democrats are wooing that 1) don't want us to be a cruel country, or 2) like immigration for it's own sake?
This rube goldberg vote-but-not-vote-population plan has no evidence for it other then enthusiastic right-wing fan fiction.
apart from the illegal voting Still no evidence of that.
the dangers to the health and safety of American citizens
American citizens to a great job of that themselves.
If only citizens were counted in the census how many representatives would California lose in the House? I would say five or six at least. That alone could affect control of the House and would have an effect on presidential elections because the number of electors is based largely on apportionment. Five or six electoral votes is about the same number as a small state.
Same Q but Texas.
Border states are CA, AZ, NM, and TX.
Then why does TX fight illegal immigration wheres CA and the Democrats obsessively promote illegals crossings?
Three of those states were awarded to Biden during the last presidential election. Take away the electors those states gain because if their illegal alien population and how would that gave affected the election? Now consider if those electors had been awarded to red states instead. Btw if the top ten states in illegal immigrant population eight went Biden in 2020 and six are solid blue states ( which means that by apportionment they probably give the Democrats an extra 12-15 members of the House which is a huge difference when it comes to control of the House).
Riva,
Setting aside the non-factual premise of your question, because Texas, California, and "Democrats" have motives other than electoral vote and apportionment.
If your theory was correct, for example, Democrats generally and recipient states like New York and Illinois should be ecstatic that Texas is busing immigrants from a red state to blue states. But they aren't.
Ponder that for a moment and then realize their supposed motives are not, in fact, their actual motives.
Consider the case of Ohio, the biggest loser from immigration-induced reapportionment. In 2020, there will be 292,000 non-citizens in Ohio, accounting for just 2 percent of the state's population; California will be home to nearly 4.8 million non-citizens, accounting for 12 percent of the state's population.
No, we shouldn't consider a single data point; that's dumb.
Not considering a data point is dumb.
"Of course" you have no — what's the word? — evidence for this, and can provide no rational reason why anyone would do that. "Although as an illegal I want to stay under the radar so I don't get deported, I'm going to commit a crime that provides me with no benefit."
How dumb are you? If they can't vote — and they can't — this lessens Democratic power; it doesn't increase it. They don't make the individual districts any more "Democrat controlled" since they don't vote, and so you have to pack in actual Democratic voters if you want to keep control of those districts, which makes the other districts more Republican.
I guess you never heard of CA. And as for other jurisdictions, you should ask the Biden administration where it decides to ship the illegals, and why, they certainly aren’t asking for anyone’s permission. Of course, we know the impoverished Martha’s Vineyard is safe from any taint of illegals.
Where does the Biden Administration "ship the illegals"?
You don’t understand the apportionment process, do you?
"Plus….they can’t vote. What the heck is vote adjacent?"
Does the Census count citizens or just people?
The 2020 Census counted people. Remember all of the outrage when Trump wanted to just count citizens and legal aliens?
His point is that this counting is the secret main driver behind Democrats' immigration policies.
One of them. The Cloward-Piven strategy might be driving others. In sum though, democrats just don’t like this country, they certainly don’t like borders.
The Cloward-Piven strategy is an insane conspiracy theory and you are stupid to believe it.
“The Cloward-Piven Strategy is a political strategy that seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.”
Go back to Patriots.win and talk about how dry you're keeping your powder for the coming collapse.
One can feel your love of country just by reading your comments.
You hate your countrymen for stuff that's made up.
This from a guy who probably still despises President Trump over Russian collusion lies and a made up pee tape.
You are accusing me of stuff you speculate I feel.
I'm pointing at your actual comment that indicates you believe in an actual ridiculous conspiracy theory from 10 years ago that no one subscribes to anymore.
.
That's the half-educated bigot's perspective; not surprisingly, it is wrong.
Democrats like modern America, often because they are part of the liberal-libertarian mainstream that has been shaping our national progress for more than a half-century.
Republicans can't stand modern America -- with all of this damned progress, reason, science, and inclusiveness -- pining instead for illusory "good old days" circa 1950 (or 1850) when women, blacks, gays, agnostics, and others weren't nearly so uppity.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit. Not a step beyond.
So you hate anything not “modern America”? What a patriot you are.
Wrong again.
Many elements of America reaching back several centuries were admirable and important, an indispensable foundation for much of what makes current America great (and substantially better than earlier versions).
Name some of these elements that you find admirable.
And we are so far from that sort of free economy we can't see it from where we are now.
So your argument rests on a fantasy that you yourself resist bringing into existence, fuck off with that dishonest crap.
? What fantasy am I resisting?
"It’s bizarre that government forbids them working while providing living expenses and shelter. Only a damn fool could not see how completely wrong that is."
The deal in 1986 was that we give amnesty to all those who are already here, but we don't let any more in -- and if they aren't able to work here, then they won't come here illegally.
We didn't get the enforced border and now you want to get rid of the last scintilla of the 1986 deal? Screw that!!!
MACHINE GUNS!!!!
Applicants for asylum are not here illegally.
Technically only true because they are allowed by the Biden Administration into the country to wait for their Amnesty hearing, scheduled maybe 10 years from now (most aren’t expected to bother attending their hearings). This wasn’t the case with the Trump Administration. Many, probably most, “asylum” seekers won’t qualify for it, because they are in reality here for economic reasons, but NGOs, etc have informed the incoming hoarded to claim asylum, regardless of why they are coming here, because it is an easy ticket for admission.
Similarly, Bruce Hayden is technically an American, although much of his stale, ugly thinking is profoundly un-American.
Asylum is bullshit.
As Nancy Reagan put it, "Just Say NO."
I'm sorry you’re on the Nazi side from WW2.
"The "Migrant Crisis" is Caused by Flawed Work and Housing Policies"
Agree. The flaws are within their home country however.
Migrants, or liberal NIMBYS(how many migrants is Somin housing?), want the US to make free housing for all comers.
Stay home, build homes.
This is typical Somin nonsense. The problem is not caused by the millions who voluntarily break the law or the President who refuses to enforce those laws; the problem is our failure to change the law to accommodate lawbreakers.
If a President didn't like our income tax laws and, exercising his "discretion", refused to enforce those laws, we would have a financial crisis. And that crisis would directly be the fault of those failing to pay their taxes and the President who refused to enforce those laws, however "bad" those laws may or may not be in anyone's opinion. The remedy would be to impeach and remove such a President, not to change the law because he doesn't like it.
Remember when Bush won because you riled up Cubans by saying Elian Gonzalez should remain with his American kidnappers?? I will never forget.
In Amurica at worst Elian would be an Uber driver, in Cuber he's currently insane and penniless.
So he's currently no different from Antifa or the myriad Leftists that are not directly financed by government grants.
EXACTLY -- and it's time to treat CRIMINALS as the criminals they are.
Vote for them for President?
The problems caused by the 18th Amendment were solved by repealing the 18th Amendment, not by enforcing it really hard.
You might have had some semblance of a relevant point there if, instead of Congress and the states having gone through the legal, Constitutional amendment process, FDR had just declared the law "broken" and simply refused to enforce Prohibition.
You might have some relevant point if if I wasn't responding to your whine about not wanting the law changed.
Illegal Aliens are Illegal Aliens and they are not welcome.
Degenerates call the Illegal Aliens migrants.
Except when they threw the 2000 election to the Jesus Lover so he could torture and slaughter Muslims.
They are welcomed by Great Replacement advocates, like Somin.
"What's the difference between these cases? (New York/Chicago and Houston/Miami) I don't know for sure." Ilya Somin
I do
Frank "It's Black and White"
Want to figure out a realistic way to create more-affordable housing in America’s top real estate markets? Figure out a way to get wealthy foreigners out of the markets. In markets literally saturated with foreign demand, trying to build enough housing to lower free market real estate prices becomes a fool’s errand.
In the most useful neighborhoods in America’s most in-demand urban areas, a point has apparently arrived where no conceivable amount of building will create lower free market prices for housing. Whether for owner-occupied or rental housing units there is apparently a literally insatiable demand among wealthy foreigners to buy or rent real estate in those locations.
The low cost alternative is to go to places wealthy foreigners do not want to be, at least not yet. Bad neighborhoods in Baltimore, for instance. Or run-down outlying suburbs of lesser cities in the midwest, or upstate New York.
A problem with that is that poor immigrants need advantageous location more than anyone else. With neither money nor time for long commutes, poor immigrants have to be near their work. They can solve that problem by jam-packing more-expensive real estate closer to urban centers, generally in defiance of multiple codes, not just zoning. That puts the immigrants in competition with less-wealthy Americans, like college students, who also pack available spaces, but less so because they have a bit more money than the immigrants.
Somin should stop rationalizing about pipe dream Econ 10 solutions, and get out and talk to some rental real estate agents in the DC area, Boston, or New York City to find out what is actually going on with the housing supply.
Your description of the situation rings true.
SL, I'm wondering what's the difference between a wealthy, foreign, real estate investor and a wealthy, domestic, real estate investor?
Seems like both are after profits and both must adhere to the same laws, taxes, standards, etc.
I'm just not understanding why you felt you had to emphasize "wealthy foreigners."
And in your eyes, is it OK for a NY investor to invest in property in San Francisco?
apedad, easy peasy. The aggregate demand goes way up when you add the wealthy foreigners to the wealthy Americans. Whatever chance there might be to outbuild the budgets of just wealthy Americans, that goes aglimmering when you add in essentially all the wealth in the world.
"Wealthy foreigners, bad. Poor immigrants, good." -SL
So, essentially, “We could fix all the problems caused by the systematic failure to enforce popular laws I oppose, by repealing or failing to enforce other popular laws I oppose.”
I find myself wondering if your notion of proper government policy in a democracy has any room at all for the public, the demos, to have any say in what the government does?
You know why the libertarian party was created, instead of a revolutionary army? Because you can't impose liberty on people you haven't persuaded to WANT liberty! You seem eager to just skip over the persuading people step.
You don’t know immigration law and the discretion it allows, which the Supreme Court has ratified, and you don’t want to learn.
The Libertarian Party was not created as an alternative to a revolution.
And migrants are not acculturated to mot like liberty, that’s a negative generalization you cannot support.
There’s discretion except where Democrats sell it off, sometimes forever.
Yeah, it's fucking awful the US has agreed we don't treat children like animals.
Good lord how do you get like this?
I would tell you "don't ever change, Gaslight0" but we are clearly in no danger of such an eventuality.
"The U.S. government has agreed to compensate thousands of migrant families who were forced apart at the southern border in 2017 and 2018 as part of the Trump administration's zero-tolerance policy."
"In 1997, the U.S. government entered into a consent decree, the Flores Settlement Agreement, which established immigration detention standards for unaccompanied alien children"
You're angry about consent decrees to do some baseline not be evil to children stuff.
And your main rejoinder to my pointing that out is that I'm trying to gaslight you? What does that even mean?
When I pointed out you were misleading on the basic facts, you jumped immediately into hyper-emotional personal attack mode.
Which is exactly par for you.
I pasted directly from the articles, chief.
You're pissed that we have *baseline detention standards for children*.
Or maybe you didn't read the shit you linked; that is exactly par for you.
Shoot them too... 🙂
Try going 48 hours without a posting a murder fantasy. I dare you.
It's not murder....
So… challenge not accepted?
"The Libertarian Party was not created as an alternative to a revolution."
And you know this because of your long history of involvement with the Libertarian party, dating back to the 70's. Which college did YOU found a chapter of the LP at, again? I forget.
What would we call this? "Statist-splaining"?
"And migrants are not acculturated to mot like liberty, that’s a negative generalization you cannot support."
Maybe that's why I didn't make it.
1) I've met libertarians. Radical, sure. Revolutionary they are not.
2) A rump party does not have on the table revolution as a viable alternative.
3) Are you appealing to your own authority, as a loval party official, that the libertarian party was just thiiis close to becoming a revolutionary vanguard??
And I don't see how else to take 'you can’t impose liberty on people you haven’t persuaded to WANT liberty' other than the thesis that migrant culture isn't into liberty. What did you mean if not that?
All you're doing is demonstrating that my point went right over your head.
My point was that the LP deliberately WASN'T a revolutionary movement, because you CAN'T impose liberty by force. We were a political party because we needed, in a democracy, to persuade the voters to WANT libertarian policies.
That's my complaint about Somin: He seems to think that he doesn't need to persuade the voters to agree with him, he just needs the courts to impose his policies on an unwilling electorate by pretending that they're constitutionally mandated.
He's a revolutionary, with an army of judges. He just doesn't GET the reason for the "P" in "LP".
To be fair to him, that exact approach did seem to work for imposing SSM on an unwilling nation. At enormous cost to judicial legitimacy... But I don't think it can be generalized to bigger issues.
MY point is that it wasn't deliberate, it was never in the cards.
I don't see where you're getting Somin doesn't think he needs to try and persuade the voters. He's written stuff aimed at everyone, from voters to agencies to judges to Congress. Is this your telepathy again?
He’s a revolutionary, with an army of judges oh good lord. You mistake rhetoric for substance. That's not a revolution, this isn't an invasion, regulations are not fascism.
"MY point is that it wasn’t deliberate, it was never in the cards."
Back to statist-splaining, to a guy who was literally founding a chapter of the LP when you weren't even that proverbial gleam in somebody's eye.
Yes, not in the cards. And we understood that, unlike, say, the SDS, or Weathermen, whose goals being achieved by revolution weren't in the cards, either.
But Somin doesn't understand that. He thinks liberty can be imposed. By judges, but the only reason people listen to judges is because people with guns stand behind them.
So, from a standpoint of democratic legitimacy? He's no better than the SDS.
Oops wrong place.
Leaning on your own authority to try and make a rump party flex that no one believes.
Moreover, the Libertarian Party was not a think tank. It was trying to win (as unrealistic as that was), not merely trying to publicize libertarian ideas.
That discretion is exactly the current flash point. And why almost every Republican outside of a couple of Senate Republicans opposed the "bipartisan" bill--which authorized even greater discretion while accelerating the privileges granted to those awaiting asylum hearings and the administration discretion to grant such requests.
I know people like you (and Somin) don't want to hear it (for differing reasons), but such discretion has caused the surge in border crossings at locations other than official ports of entry.
Of course Somin doesn't believe in any border/immigration restrictions, so it's pointless to debate the finer points of the immigration laws he doesn't believe should exist.
That discretion is legal. Brett thinks it's not.
You seem to agree with me, you just think it's bad policy.
We can probably have a conversation about that.
Brett is out to lunch.
Impose liberty?!?
You can't impose something they already have.
Whether people USE their liberties is another matter but they already have liberty.
Yeah, and protecting liberty people already have is worth doing, whether or not they want the protection.
Does anyone have a list of countries which allow all "asylum seekers" access, work rights, no limits on stay?
Well, to be accurate, asylum seekers are only legal here, until their asylum hearing, which may be scheduled for a decade from now. So, figure, illegal immigrants only are quasi legal here for a decade. Of course, the wait is getting longer (quickly) as the number of available hearing slots isn’t increasing near quickly enough to cover the massive increase in asylum seekers (which by now means most everyone crossing into this country illegally).
Some discussion re Europe: https://www.economicsobservatory.com/asylum-seekers-in-europe-where-do-people-go-and-why#:~:text=Some%2C%20such%20as%20Croatia%2C%20Greece,to%20enter%20the%20job%20market).
It is very "let them eat cake" for Somin to suggest that illegal immigrants should just pay their own bus fare to wherever they want to go. That was always a theoretical option, but approximately zero of them come in with the money they would need to do that. States like Texas, Arizona and Florida don't force anyone onto these buses; Somin's only beef is that the rides are provided free to people who are too poor to afford their own ticket.
His beef is that the destinations that support policies he likes until, like him. They're forced to face the consequences of that support. Ilya was all for the gunpoint relocation of his precious asylum seekers out of Martha's Vinyard.
I'll take "things that never happened, even if you pretend Social Justice knows how to spell" for $500, Alex.
OR...the answer is simple.
The United States can handle immigrants fine...in limited numbers. Those limited numbers are actually pretty high...in the area of a million a year (for legal immigration).
However, the recent surge of illegal immigration at the border is exceeding those limits dramatically, seeing more than 3 million illegal immigrants per year. The vast number of immigrants, in a limited period of time, is overloading resources, overloading planning, and overloading the capacity of the country, leading to the migrant crisis.
Somin's suggestion ("Just let them work legally") would make the crisis worse, not better. It would encourage MORE illegal immigration. The difference is wages is clear between most of Latin America and the US. Can there be a better incentive, really? Illegally migrate to the US. Claim asylum. Work legally for 2-3 years (or as long as you want, until your case comes up). Make bank, more than you could in 10 years back home.
I mean, who wouldn't do that? Wouldn't you immigrate somewhere where you could be making $300,000 a year for what would pay you $50,000 a year here? All you need to do is say you're afraid of the violence here, and then boom. Free work permit for several years.
I actually agree with the problem statement here - there is a threshold where the transition is not worth.
But the solution...You complain a lot about the carrot, but your prescription is more stick. Seems misaligned.
I do not agree that the only solution is to be assholes to illegals already here. I'm not sure, but could be convinced that could act to mitigation, but it's also immoral. Illegals are the victims, not the drivers. Find some other way other than cruelty.
And there are other ways; and I don't mean a wall (though more $$ for border security is hardly a political nonstarter if the GOP could stop tripping over Trump)
The incentive is jobs and $$. This suggests one could tighten up regs on businesses (unions could help here), and find a way to deal with the demand gap (maybe raising wages!)
If there were only a few of them, I'd agree. But Biden didn't just open the spigot, he broke the faucet right off!
3 freaking MILLION illegal immigrants a year!!!
At this point we kind of do have to be utter dicks about it, just to reestablish that we have a border, and that illegally crossing it doesn't get you anything but kicked out and put on a list of people who can never, EVER, be legally in the US.
By this logic, why not break out the machine guns?
Because I don't think we need to, quite yet.
But if I'm wrong about that, if we announce that the party is over, line the border with soldiers, and the illegals try to cross anyway?
Yeah, break out the machine guns. We either have a border, or we don't.
There’s at least one way in which you are passionately statist – when it comes to shooting poor people.
If those are the choices, I vote "don't."
Yes, shooting unarmed people who steadfastly refuse to stop advancing on a fortified position should strictly be reserved for our own citizens.
"our own citizens"
Female ones especially.
Oh you DON'T approve now.
.
Mr. Bellmore is an intensely bigoted, antisocial, autistic, backwater, conspiracy theory-addled, resentful, right-wing culture war casualty, which explains that comment.
He also is part of the target audience of a faux libertarian blog operated by a bunch of disaffected, fringe, right-wing law professors trying to forget or deny they were affirmative action hires.
Isn't every law enforced with the threat of lethal force?
Not by Sheriff Orville Drexler, of Blaine County, Idaho, in the 1970s. He made a point of going unarmed when he arrested people charged with ordinary offenses. Got a lot of respect from everyone for doing it that way.
But, they are all now “asylum seekers”, since they know that they won’t be deported if they claim such.
I agree with a lot that you say but I disagree on them never to be able to be here legally. If they go back to their native country and apply to come legally they should be treated the same as all others applying to be here legally.
And while I oppose any amnesty if (when) there is another one the people who are allowed to stay should be forever barred from citizenship.
1. "but your prescription is more stick."
This is a strawman. I make no prescription in the above argument. I explain why there is a problem, I do not propose a solution.
2. "This suggests one could tighten up regs on businesses "
-Interesting proposal. You mean like the Red States currently do on most businesses, regarding employing illegal immigrants?
3. "maybe raising wages!"
-Odd choice. For who? For all workers in America? Or just for legal American workers. While nice as an overall concept, either would be poor for discouraging illegal immigration.
1) ? You are making a policy argument. That we need to be tough on illegals, lest the incentives be for them to stay. That seems a perscription.
2) I don't know where you heard different, but by mere illegal population statistics alone, red states don't seem to be doing gangbusters in their business labor regs regarding use of migrant labor, at least near the border.
3) What is the incentives for businesses to pay illegals versus citizens/residents? At the moment, it seems driven by lack of interest among non-illegals for a bunch of jobs. In a capitalist system, a great way to raise interest would be to raise wages.
1) "You are making a policy argument. That we need to be tough on illegals"
I don't actually say that. Again, strawmen. I explain WHY there is illegal immigration, not that we "need to be tough on illegals".
2) See "E-Verify" if you're interested in business regs on illegal employment. Check who uses it.
3) Potentially. Alternatively, employers would be more encouraged to hire illegals because they can pay them MUCH lower wages than Citizens then.
Setting aside the purely arbitrary data ("oh, this many is okay, but that many isn't"), I fail to see the problem with your hypothetical scenario: people coming here, working, making money, and then leaving. So?
First, we need to start with a simple concept. There is "some" level of immigration, that beyond which the regulations, social order, and infrastructure necessary to handle such levels break down. That level could be 100,000 immigrants per day (per year). It could be 1,000,000 immigrants per day. I'm not saying we have reached such a level. I'm simply saying that there is "some" level of immigration that exceeds the normal capacity to be able to deal with it. Some level at which there are simply "too many" people coming here at once to deal with, and certain problems and issues arise.
Do you agree with such a concept? Or do you believe that such an issue is an impossibility? That no matter how high a level of immigration, even if there were 1 million immigrants a day, 365 days a year, there would be no issues, no problems foreseeable.
Is Ilya Somin recruiting for the Klu Klux Klan?
That's what he's doing with crap like this.
What he is saying is that criminals can break into our country, steal from us, and there is nothing we can do about it. Once the logic gets to that point, Joe Sixpack's response is "mass executions."
Ilya fails to understand that the middle is ceasing to hold.
Sorry, you didn't mention machine gunning the migrants.
Try again, with more Ed on it this time.
Have you seen the price of ammo today?
Edged weapons never have to be reloaded.
“Edged weapons never have to be reloaded.”
Sorry, not lurid enough. Please try again.
“MACHINE GUNS!!!! … Have you seen the price of ammo today?”
The party of fiscal responsibility?
"But, beyond that, the federal government makes little or no effort to control where and how they live."
Not true. I live near Jacksonville. I have seen film on the local news showing planes full of migrants being dumped on the tarmac at JAX. k Of course the federal government denied involvement in any such thing. So covertly, the feds were dumping migrants only in southern red states while denying that there was any border crisis at all. That is not a right wing conspiracy, it was real.
Texas governor Abbot did the country a great service by busing some of them to blue states. The outcry from those blue states finally convinced the administration to admit that the border is not secure and that we have a crisis.
So Republicans dumped the latest immigration bill and are being criticized for that. But in 2007, it was Senator Obama (at the order of Henry Reid), who killed the 2007 immigration bill which might have prevented the current crisis.
The reality is that both sides are using immigration as a wedge issue, and the immigrants as pawns in their partisan wars. Both sides would rather have the issue to bash the other side than allowing a solution. The American version of democracy stinks. Democracy itself remains the best system, but we Americans have corrupted it with our version.
Harry — not Henry — Reid was the sponsor of the bill, and Obama voted for it every time. It was tanked by the GOP.
And Reid got the local airport here in Las Vegas named for him.
Wife grew up playing with the Reid kids, while their fathers talked boxing. At the time, he hadn’t entered politics yet. And when he did, was fairly conservative as a Dem, until he was elected Senate Majority leader, presiding over a much more liberal caucus, and with Chuck Schumer pushing hard behind him, if he faltered.
How do you figure it was tanked just by the GOP? Bush pushed hard for it. But both sides were highly critical of it - the GOP didn't like legalizing illegal immigrants here, and Dems didn't like the guest worker program or reducing family reunification.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007
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That is either aggressive lying or belligerent ignorance. Either way, it constitutes the level of argument and analysis mainstream America expects to find at the Volokh Conspiracy.
tl;dr, if we didn't have a massive welfare state it wouldn't be such a burden to deal with illegal immigration.
I don't think anyone disagrees with this.
The migrant crisis is caused by being a rich country with an open border to 3rd world countries. It's that simple. It won't end until we stop letting them come in, or we become a 3rd world country.
Correct. And people like Somin are determined to make us a 3rd world country.
I'm old enough to remember that your mother was a kook, but not quite old enough to remember that she was this much of a bigot. (Or do you get that from your father?)
Illegal immigration will remain so long as Democrats think that it benefits them politically. That strategy won’t help them in the long term, and it probably isn’t even going to work in the short term:
The Local Reaction to Unauthorized Mexican Migration to the US∗
We study the political impacts of unauthorized Mexican migration to the United States. Our identification strategy relies on two shift-share instruments that combine variation in migration inflows and migrant networks using data on more than 7 million likely unauthorized migrants who obtained consular IDs. We identify evidence of conservative electoral and policy responses at the level of a US county. Unauthorized migration significantly increases the vote share of the Republican Party in federal elections and decreases total public expenditure.
Do you really think the opinion of the locals will matter when they're totally overrun by immigrants and their children? They will be the new electorate.
Do you mean immigrants or illegal immigrants?
And do you think illegal immigrants are part of the electorate?
1. It makes no difference. The illegal ones will likely receive citizenship with an upcoming immigration reform bill anyway, and if not they are having way more kids than natives.
2. Few illegal immigrants vote in federal elections, but they contribute to apportionment and of course they have more kids than us who will vote. Not to mention illegals can vote in some local and state elections.
tl;dr: Areas that experience illegal immigration vote more Republican, likely as a backlash to Democrats' open border policies.
As for the children of illegal immigrants, Democrats may feel like they will feel indebted to the Democratic Party, but 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants don't and haven't done that.
Democrats are gambling on illegal immigration swamping Republicans for at the ballot box for the rest of the 21st century, but there's no evidence that it's working or even has a hope of working.
There's even evidence that increased illegal migration will help Republicans in the long term, and it's not hard to see why: they're here for prosperity and economic opportunity.
Through a combination of incompent try-hards and intentional decisions by socialists, Democrats stand in opposition to those two. So long as they do, they'll find that immigrants aren't likely to buy into what they're selling.
So Republicans are going to swing the gate wide open now?!?
Would somebody please let Texas know.
Mucho gracias!!!
If the our parties' elected officials swapped stances on illegal immigration tomorrow- Democrats would now oppose illegal immigration and Republicans become in favor of too-cute-by-half open borders policies- you'll find that Republicans would take a beating in the polls for the exact reason that Democrats are taking a beating right now.
The fact of the matter is that American citizens of all stripes largely oppose illegal immigration. Whichever political party that embraces it (like Democrats do now) are on the wrong side of the public.
‘Democrats are gambling on illegal immigration swamping Republicans for at the ballot box for the rest of the 21st century, but there’s no evidence that it’s working or even has a hope of working.’
Or, and here’s a thought, they’re not actually gambling on it, any more than they’re ‘open borders.’
‘they’re here for prosperity and economic opportunity.’
If Republicans were about that, you might even have a point, but Republicans are now about banning drag queens, persecuting trans people, removing books from libraries, whitewashing history, getting furious about minor incidents in a tiny handful of universities and using the military to round up thousands and thousands of people for forced deportations.
Hi Nige!
How are you doing? You missed my message in the other thread.
No, you missed mine.
Oh, I'm so sorry. It was unintentional.
Are you doing ok? How's the family?
‘Democrats are gambling on illegal immigration swamping Republicans for at the ballot box for the rest of the 21st century, but there’s no evidence that it’s working or even has a hope of working.’
Or, and here’s a thought, they’re not actually gambling on it, any more than they’re ‘open borders.’
‘they’re here for prosperity and economic opportunity.’
If Republicans were about that, you might even have a point, but Republicans are now about banning drag queens, persecuting trans people, removing books from libraries, whitewashing history, getting furious about minor incidents in a tiny handful of universities and using the military to round up thousands and thousands of people for forced deportations.
I'm glad to hear that your family is doing well. Mine's ok as well. My mom hates winter, but that's what she gets for living in the midwest.
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By "Republicans," you mean . . . (1) the right-wing law professors who operate this blog, (2) their bigoted, half-educated, antisocial fans, or (3) both?
You're too complacent. At some point in the next decade, the Democrats may have solid majorities in Congress, and control of the White House. They could by statute irreversibly naturalize every illegal in the country, and you think that wouldn't lock Republicans out of power for a generation at least?
That's probably why they're so determined to dump as many illegal aliens as possible in red states: An electoral bomb they can set off any time they get the votes.
Lol it would atually serve you bloody well right if they did. Republicans might have to go back to trying to win peoples’ votes via competence and good governance not culture war rabble-rousing and ridiculous grandstanding.
Don't worry about those Red States, though, they're gerrymandered to the hilt to maintain minority rule.
At this point I don't think even Democrats are stupid enough to do that. The backlash among current American citizens would probably swamp whatever votes Democrats gain through a mass amnesty.
Evil Dem Fan Fiction can be used to justify anything including mass murder.
Keep it on the tracks, Brett.
Sorry but this is delusional copium. In the coming decades we will either have a permanent Democratic majority or a Republican party that morphs into something unrecognizable. The illegals pouring over the border are not skilled free market libertarians looking for prosperity. They are poor third worlders who heard a rich country with a generous welfare state has an open border.
"Do you really think the opinion of the locals will matter when they’re totally overrun by immigrants and their children? They will be the new electorate.
Do you think we will still be having elections?
'Illegal immigration will remain so long as Democrats think that it benefits them politically.'
That's funny, the side getting enormously energised by illegal immigration are the Republicans. Though the point still stands.
Hi Nige!
Glad to see that you're replying to my posts. Are you doing well?
I would really like to see prof Somin address practical realities instead of theoreticals. Look at this case, for example, highlighted in the NYT yesterday. The article is incredibly sympathetic, but even the authors can’t point to a solution.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/20/nyregion/asylum-seekers-homeless-evictions-new-york-city.html
It’s a good read, but here’s the short version – a couple from Africa claim they came here fleeing violence in Guinea. They took a flight to Brazil, then made their way north through several countries to the US. They left 3 small children and elderly parents behind. Their plan is to bring them all here. The wife was pregnant so just had a baby here (which is now a US citizen). They are in New York City, and don’t like the cold, the language barrier, or expensive cost of living. Right off the bat, the problems are obvious. Instead of claiming asylum in another country in Africa, or in Brazil or numerous other countries they passed through, they claimed it here. They can only speak French, so they should have gone to a french speaking country to begin with. And instead of going somewhere that has a modest cost of living, they chose to go to the most expensive city in the nation. Now they are considering returning to Africa (which the article frames as a bad thing).
So what is Somin’s solution? Even if they get job permits, they are only qualified for manual labor, which isn’t enough to support a family of 3 in NYC!! (much less the additional 5 family members they want to bring here). The wife doesn't look like the type to supplement her income on OnlyFans. Even if NYC lifts rent controls, and allows additional housing to be constructed, cost of living would still be extremely expensive in such a densely crowded city. Should the state support all of them financially, even though there is basically no hope of them becoming net paying taxpayers?
And should we encourage the REST of his country to come here too? Is that really good for them?
Just…. Wow.
“ The wife doesn’t look like the type to supplement her income on OnlyFans.”
Oh really? Care to expand on that?
A married Muslim woman wearing a hijab? Anything is possible, but its not likely.
Well that’s interesting.
I want you think think very slowly and carefully about the assumptions you made before typing that statement.
Because the word “Muslim” doesn’t appear in that article. In fact, while it’s not a direct quote, you might have seen this if you were reading carefully:
“The day he would receive his papers would be like a baptism.“
So would you like to stick with your dumb comment or admit what we both know to be the case: you threw in a nasty misogynistic comment about her appearance and are backing off when called out on it?
Well, that escalated quickly to open hostility. What are you on about? Do you have anything substantive to discuss, or are you bored so you resort to creating a squabble out of whole cloth?
The article doesn’t use the word “Muslim” but you might have seen this if you were reading carefully. The fact that she’s wearing a hijab PLUS the fact that they claim their village was pressuring them into female genital mutilation for their daughter makes it pretty obvious, but fine, they can be any religion. I don’t care about that. The issue is more about culture than religion.
I wasn’t referring to her beauty, and frankly I didn’t even notice. I know women, some of them friends of mine, who got into a desperate situation and resorted to OnlyFans or something similar. They are not all beauty queens, some far from it.
The POINT here (which you are desperately trying to derail) is that even if this family gets creative in ways to make money, it’s highly unlikely they would be able to support themselves, at least not for a very, very long time. The woman has a newborn infant for heaven’s sake.
You were the one who spiced up your pretty unremarkable comment (have you heard the cost of living in NYC is high??) with extraneous stuff about her “look” and Only Fans. You had already graced us with your opinion that this couple was only fit for manual labor. So it’s just gratuitous. Why you chose to throw that in and then turn around and try to make it about me is only a question you can answer.
“The fact that she’s wearing a hijab PLUS the fact that they claim their village was pressuring them into female genital mutilation for their daughter makes it pretty obvious, but the specific religion is not the point.”
Not all scarves worn on the head are hijabs. I would have thought this was so painfully obvious as to not needing to be pointed out, but here we are. Have you ever seen a picture of Jackie O back in the day?
So the fact that they FLED a community where genital mutilation is common leads you to conclude it’s “pretty obvious” they’re Muslim? Did you even think about that for more than 2 seconds? This was obviously a nasty throw away comment, so common among the conservatives here. Vice signaling.
And they also LEFT THE GIRL BEHIND, the 5 year old girl they were supposedly trying to save from FGM. Did that thought ever cross your mind?
And again, do you have anything to say about the actual point at hand, that none of Somin's ideas are going to help this family settle in NY?
“And they also LEFT THE GIRL BEHIND, the 5 year old girl they were supposedly trying to save from FGM. Did that thought ever cross your mind?”
Yeah, it crossed my mind. It was probably a pretty gut-wrenching decision.
Again. Your transparent excuse for making your snide (and that’s putting it charitably) comment about only fans and this person’s “look” was that she is Muslim. But two seconds of reflection would reveal why that assumption is unwarranted.
And besides— it’s about “culture” right? I’m sure you are an expert on Guniean culture. Can you enlighten us further as to what you meant by this?
I agree with Somin— they should be allowed to work while their asylum cases are resolved.
I also can’t let this little gem go by with no comment:
“net paying taxpayers”
The chutzpah of a Trump voter making this particular complaint is both stunning and unsurprising.
Now that you have, reluctantly been dragged kicking and screaming back to the actual point - even if he gets a work permit tomorrow, exactly how is this husband, who doesn’t even speak English, going to support a family of 8 people here?
Maybe he’ll pull himself up by his bootstraps. Or is that not part of the Guniean culture that you are so familiar with?
“The issue is more about culture than religion.”
Careful now, you’re awfully close to openly saying what I suspect your real problem with this couple is.
What do you know about Guniean culture? Please be specific.
Estragon, are you the Muslim Onlyfans police here? You are the one making nasty comments here.
Rohan is finding Muslims where there aren’t any, not me.
"Rohan is finding Muslims where there aren’t any, not me."
I'm not comfortable with the assumptions he is making either, but 'where there aren't any' seems inaccurate: wiki says Guinea is 86.8% Muslim.
In the article. I don’t doubt there are Muslims over the world.
So your criticism should be directed at the NY Times, as it left out the important detail that the woman is a Muslim. Rohan just made a reasonable inference.
“The woman is aMuslim”
Uhhhh, wut?
"finding Muslims where there aren’t any"
Its a pretty fair assumption. You are just being a d**k about it to deflect from his point. Congrats
Her name is Oumou. "Oumou, is a female given name from black Africa derived from the Arabic 'umm (أُمّ): "mother". The Meaning Of The Name website
She has an Arabic name but is not Muslim!
"picture of Jackie O "
Oumou's headcovering is a Muslim type, not like Mrs Kennedy's scarf formed into a triangle.
Their county is 87% Muslim.
female genital mutilation is overwhelmingly a muslim practice
You are seizing on a small point to discredit his main point and slapping yourself on the back for your wit.
The main point is so unremarkable as to be barely worth mentioning. New immigrants to this county have a hard time making ends meet and NYC has a high cost of living. Wow! Stunning insight.
I am pointing out the bullshit assumptions and petty nastiness going on here.
Oh and also your focus on religion is misplaced. It’s about “culture” as the man himself said. You got some stuff from Wikipedia you wanna copy paste about guniean culture too, or are we done here?
"petty nastiness "
Well, you do excel at that.
That’s pretty rich coming from you bobby
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You, sir, are the audience and commenter the disaffected, white, male law professors who operate this faux libertarian blog crave.
Congratulations to you and the clingers who court you as a target audience on finding each other in a society increasingly disdainful of and short on such matches.
I'm sorry, do you have a relevant point other than ad hominem attacks?
Dear Joe,
You OWN this catastrophic disaster at the border – lock, stock and barrel. You created it. You nursed it along. You encouraged it. You facilitated it. It’s all yours.
Don’t run from it now like a coward.
Signed,
The BP agents you’ve thrown under the bus. pic.twitter.com/z6HrL6Ai6E
— Border Patrol Union – NBPC (@BPUnion) February 19, 2024
When Pancho Villa invaded with 500 guys, the problem was solved by shooting them, not giving them work permits. Why can't we do that now? The army is much better now; if we can't use it to stop an invasion of US soil, then what is it for?
And we wouldn't even have to shoot them if they just went home.
Pancho Villa was chased into and shot in Mexico.
Why don't you go down there and start shooting guys yourself, if it's come to that?
It seems that, by definition, if the migrants were not here (in the U.S.) there would not be this crisis.
Or if we shipped them back, there wouldn't be a crisis.
Or if the Biden administration were not inviting in so many illegals. Or if Americans were not being replaced by parasites.
“What ensured the quiet assimilation of displaced Ukrainians? Why has the arrival of asylum seekers from Latin America been so different?”
The Ukrainians came here legally. The folks coming across the Mexican border did not.
The Ukrainians had housing pre identified and committed. The folk coming across the Mexican border did not.
Etc. etc. etc.
A larger ICE to do Operation Wetback Part Deux.
Send them back to Mexico at gunpoint, shoot those who don't go.
It's Mexico's problem.
Denial of work permits to people who shouldn't need them on account of being promptly deported is fairly popular.
When we are talking about calling out the national guard for high school discipline we have a problem.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/rcna139584
100% prompt deportation has never been our immigration policy. The INA is itself written contemplating the need for prioritization, process, and discretion.
So you need to deal with people who will be here for a while. Stubbornly refusing to admit they exist is a great recipe for bad, cruel policy, and never moving the policy needle because you insist on a whole loaf of delusionary bread no one can ever provide you with.
Number of times the word "immigrant" appears in that story: zero. Number of times the word "alien" appears in that story: zero. Number of times the words "asylum," "refugee," "undocumented," and "non-citizen" appear in that story: zero, collectively. Number of times any variation of any of the above words appears in that story: zero. Dr. Ed's IQ: zero.
It makes
nosense if the big city (Dem) mayors view the border jumpers as votes to be harvested. States have no uniform requirement of citizenship for voter registration. Providing benefits to voting constituents.Number of homeless illegal alien families that the state is paying hotel rooms for IN BROCKTON: 168. https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/files/12-18-2023-ea-report-packet-final-6581e68fb672b.pdf
This is the list for the whole state and starts on page 7.
And does not include illegal aliens staying elsewhere.
Not that David NoMind would ever confuse himself with facts.
And why would they think of national guard -- could it be that she already has national guard dealing with the 168 families in motels in Brockton?
It is barely worth mentioning since you've surely figured concluded as much already, but Dr. Ed is of course lying.
That guy isn't the only person who writes about exterminating immigrants, Democrats, gays, liberal judges, transgender persons, Blacks, and others at this blog for angry bigots. Not nearly.
Especially telling about the Volokh Conspiracy is that these conservative law professors do not remove the graphic calls for political murder (or the incessant stream of right-wing bigotry) at this blog but have repeatedly scrubbed comments that poke fun at conservatives or use mean words to describe conservatives.
Wait, is he just taking data about everyone who is in a shelter and pretending they're all asylum seekers? And pretending this has something to do with the "high school discipline" issue he raised above?