The Volokh Conspiracy
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Professor Mark Graber Lectures Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson About White Supremacy
Mark Graber: “Instead, justices on both the left and right made deeply problematic historical assertions unaware of their foundations in the white supremacist commitments of the history profession for most of the twentieth century.”
[This post is co-authored with Professor Seth Barrett Tillman.]
On Monday, February 12, 2024, Professor Mark Graber published a post on Balkinization about the February 8, 2024 oral argument in Trump v. Anderson. He argued that the questions posed by Justice Jackson had their foundation in white supremacy. We refrain from characterizing his argument further. Instead, we report these excerpts:
Instead, justices on both the left and right made deeply problematic historical assertions unaware of their foundations in the white supremacist commitments of the history profession for most of the twentieth century. . . .
The questions from many Supreme Court justices in oral argument evinced a good deal of sympathy for Dunning School dogma, minus the overt racism. . . .
Jackson came too dangerously close to articulating Dunning School commitments when she suggested that Senator Reverdy Johnson of Maryland correctly thought Section Three exempted the presidency, even though Johnson immediately recanted after being corrected by a Republican. Dunning School historians thought Johnson the greatest lawyer in the Senate. He had, after all, convinced the Supreme Court as the victorious lawyer in Dred Scott that the Constitution forbade bans on slavery in American territories, prohibited freed slaves from becoming citizens of the United States and regarded African-Americans as having no rights white American citizens were obligated to respect. Johnson was one of many Democrats who continued to maintain after the passage of the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments that the United States was committed to a white man's government. These sentiments, the Dunning School thought, made Johnson a brilliant lawyer. Contemporary historians disagree. Jackson when writing or signing opinions might consider finding a different authority on the meaning of the post-Civil War Amendments.
We are confident that Justice Jackson—along with each of her eight Supreme Court colleagues—is fully capable of understanding the "foundations" of "white supremacy," and Jackson can decide for herself which authorities are persuasive.
We, Blackman and Tillman, are both realists. We have real doubts whether our amicus brief will convince any single Justice to vote differently than that Justice would otherwise have voted. Likewise, we doubt our publications, taken separately or collectively, will likely influence any one or more Justices to vote differently than they would otherwise have voted. By contrast, as to Graber's Balkinization post, we think it much more likely to move Justice Jackson into the "Trump" camp and towards the "President is not an officer 'of' or 'under' the United States" position than anything we have written or are likely to write in the future.
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So PBJ can't tell what a women is or distinguish black from white?
I have come to believe that the great philosopher, Colonel Nathan R. Jessup, was correct in his summation "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH".
There are some reasonable people posting at Balkinization, but the site does lean heavily left, and some of the guys there are real fire breathers.
When you're used to breathing fire, you may not appreciate how you come across to people who just breath air.
What is your assessment of the Volokh Conspiracy?
Have you heard of the Resentful Arthur L. Kirkland?
It gets pretty ugly over there. (I mean here.)
You mean the guy who won't drop the issues of the Volokh Conspiracy's incessant stream of multifaceted right-wing bigotry; a white, male, conservative blog's habitual publication of vile racial slurs; and the liberal-libertarian mainstream's victory over conservatism in the American culture war?
At least he seems to have toned down the trans fetish issue, especially after Prof. Volokh -- for some reason -- has taken a break with respect to trans issues.
Artie - there is no right-wing bigotry here. Any slurs that come along are either by nuts or they're used as an example. As for the liberal-libertarian victory over conservatism regarding the culture war? Yeah, that may be true, but that's just imperfect human nature in action.
You're really paranoid if you honestly believe what you typed. My suggestion is to get out of the liberal echo chamber and experience normal people for a while. It'll do you a world of good.
I'm so glad I muted that schmuck...
You don't have to put up with me.
UCLA soon won't have to put up with a serial hurler of vile racial slurs.
Sounds like a good exchange.
Why do you refer to yourselves in the third person?
Because two is no longer enough?
I only see the first person plural.
I think these guys are just ticked that the question is really a simple one, and even KBJ isn't going to look silly over this.
Josh comes off like a teacher scolding a child. “In the future, Miss Jackson, I trust you will behave yourself better . . . “
I don’t think you meant Josh…
Whoever the “we” is.
Graber didn't use the royal "we", but perhaps it wouldn't be surprising if he did. Graber was the one who chided Justice Jackson; Blackman and Tillman merely assume she has agency.
These aren't Josh/Seth's words:
"Jackson came too dangerously close to articulating Dunning School commitments when she suggested that Senator Reverdy Johnson of Maryland correctly thought Section Three exempted the presidency,"
No, that would be Graber. Which was the point of the whole article.
Some people only see and hear what they want to see and hear.
I wonder if Josh has anything to say about Graber's other points.
Some justices sought to neuter perceived Radical Republican constitutional reforms by offering distinctions between federal and state offices that neither exist in the text of Section Three nor in history of that provision’s implementation. The justices imagined that presidents who foment insurrections are nevertheless exempt from constitutional qualifications. Numerous briefs by leading historians tried to inform the court that these propositions were historical nonsense. No one other than Justice Sonia Sotomayor appeared to be interested.
Republicans during the drafting and ratification process declared that Section Three disqualified from all federal and state offices all past and present federal officers who engaged in insurrection. ... [No] Republican commentary distinguished between presidents and members of Congress, federal officers and state officers, or persons who violated their oaths during the Civil War and persons who violated their oaths of office afterwards.
...
Justice Clarence Thomas began the parade of historical horribles in oral argument by challenging counsel arguing for disqualification to provide any example of state efforts to disqualify federal candidates during Reconstruction. He seemed to think the lack of example demonstrated that no one thought states could implement Section Three. Few if any examples exist, but not for reasons Thomas supposed. The Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in 1868. Until 1870, many former Confederate states were not represented in Congress. As a condition for federal representation, former confederate states were required to enfranchise black men. ... from 1868-1872, when an Amnesty Act passed, most congressional delegations from former confederate states were overwhelming Republican and included many black representatives.
...
Roberts spouted as bad history when he asked why Republicans would trust former confederate states to implement Section Three in good faith. This would be inexcusable Dunning School history, excused only by Roberts's lack of historical knowledge. From 1868 to 1872.... Republicans, many of whom were former enslaved persons, controlled southern state governments. Republicans trusted states that permitted black men to vote. They trusted states that did not permit former confederates to vote. Republicans did not trust states that did not permit black men to vote while permitting former confederates to vote.
...
Not a single Republican during the ratification process even hinted at a presidential exemption from constitutional disqualification. As several briefs, scholarly articles, and blog posts point out, Republicans regularly included the presidency as among the offices to which past officeholding insurrectionists were disqualified. No responsible historian thinks otherwise.
The court's conservatives have clearly perfected their secret formula for getting whatever desired result they want while still calling the process "originalism" with a straight face. Make up some history, then base the opinion on it. It's just that easy.
It's going to be 8-1. Originalist or not, a justice is going to look at the text of the Constitution first to decide what "office" and "officer" means because it is meant to be read as a whole. The question of self-execution is governed by Griffin's case and subsequent congressional action, not whether certain legislators "didn't" say that it wasn't self-executing.
How do you think they're going to justify the federal / state distinction?
Justify?
In the words of Baude/Paulson "It just is."
But as one clear indicator of original intent the Enforcement Act.of 1870 ( specified enforcement by US Attorneys pursuing quo warranto actions in Federal Court and Federal Criminal prosecutions.
Were their racists in the Congress that passed that law? Almost certainly. Does it matter? No. And the target was unambiguously ex-confederates.
Well, exactly. The existence of the Enforcement Act didn't prevent states from enforcing Section 3 against insurrectionists seeking state office. So you need to come up with a reason why Section 3 is "partially self-executing."
"It just is" will help us delegitimize the court further. That's the silver lining of this case. SCOTUS is almost guaranteed to look stupid.
You can paint a 6-3 Supreme Court as stupid or Partisan, an 8-1, or 9-0 just means you lost.
Especially if as what I'm hoping they stop short of ruling that the officers question forecloses any application of Section 3.
If they rule the only path forward is 18 USC 2383, then you have to explain that Trump should be disqualified as an insurrectionist even though he hasn't been charged with Insurrection and its because the prosecutor is unlikely to even show probable cause.
I think they all agreed that 2383 isn't enforcement legislation. They could call it "the only path forward" anyway, which would be funny because Trump would have a very strong argument that it's unconstitutional as applied to him.
But anyway, let's say they do that. You still haven't answered my question. How do they draw a line between state enforcement as to state candidates and state enforcement as to federal candidates? Or is "it just is" your final answer?
Justice Kagan answered that during argument. In essence, a single state is not going to determine who appears on the ballot for a federal election. CO attempted to add qualifications by moving up the deadline as to when the Congress can remove a disability (like being the Chief Insurrectionizer) prior to taking office (and assuming an election win).
Because Congress has the power to remove the disability by a vote up to the point of taking the oath of office, CO cannot remove him from the ballot for federal office.
Oh I find that argument extremely weak. You think that's going to get five votes? I'll be surprised.
Congress can't add requirements to elected positions either. So if that's the rationale, even federal enforcement legislation wouldn't be able to overcome it. Which means that if there were an avowed insurrectionist, there'd be no possible mechanism to disqualify him until after he got elected. I don't think five justices are going to think that's what Section Three requires.
C_XY,
The reasoning that gets rid of A14S3 regardless of the vote in November is that the President and VP are neither Officers of or Officers under and therefore are not covered.
Don Nico, SCOTUS never has to address the office/officer question if they adopt the view that Congress can remove the disability (like being the Chief Insurrectionizer, but curiously never tried for insurrection) immediately prior to office (which did happen, many times in post Civil War period; that history is documented)....and so a state cannot move up the deadline. That is neat, and surgical. I don't believe that argument is the 'weak sauce' Randal seems to think it is. We will see, soon enough.
Everything I have learned here tells me that CJ Roberts will want narrow down the legal question as much as possible, and get a 9-0 ruling. And I don't see a grand opus for a decision, at all.
Orals were not sounding like he'd have to do much wrangling to get a unanimous decision.
You show be a single statement in oral arguments by a single justice implying 2383 is not enforcement of Section 3, and I will concede you partially have a point.
Even Murray while not entirely conceding the point, did concede 2383 could be used to disqualify an insurrectionist from office(PG 114).
Really Randall, I’m not saying you are arguing in bad faith, but saying “I think they all agreed that 2383 isn’t enforcement legislation.” when not a single justice did could make someone who doesn’t know you well wonder. I know that's what you want to believe, but just check first, its not that hard
Kagan proposed a hypothetical that implies that 2383 isn't enforcement legislation.
Kavanaugh asks a lot of questions about 2383 but is careful not to imply that it's enforcement legislation.
Several other justices talk about the Enforcement Act as if it's the only enforcement legislation that's ever existed: Barrett, Jackson, Sotomayor, and Alito.
Other than Mitchell, no one ever implies that the Insurrection Act is enforcement legislation.
Where did Kagan pose the hypothetical, just give me a page number?
The closest I can find is this, which is not what you are claiming at all: JUSTICE KAGAN: And if I could just understand the argument a little bit better, suppose that we took all of that way away. You know, suppose there were no Griffin’s Case and there were no subsequent congressional enactment. What do you then think the rule would be?
And Kavanaugh to Mitchell doesn’t support what you are claiming: “JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: — And just to be clear, under 2383, you agree that someone could be prosecuted for insurrection by federal prosecutors and, if convicted, could be or shall be disqualified then from office? MR. MITCHELL: Yes. But the only caveat that I would add is that our client is arguing that he has presidential immunity.”
And Kavanaugh to Murray which also is opposite to your claim: “if the concern you have, which I understand, is that insurrectionists should not be able to hold federal office, there is a tool to ensure that that does not happen, namely, federal prosecution of insurrectionists. And if convicted, Congress made clear you are automatically barred from enacted statutes, including one still in effect. Section 2383 of Title 18 prohibits insurrection. It’s a federal criminal statute. And if you’re convicted of that, you are — it says, “shall be disqualified” from holding any office. And so there is a federal statute on the books, but President Trump has not been charged with that. So what — what are we to make of that? “
It certainly sounds like Kavanaugh thinks 2383 is enforcement legislation.
It certainly sounds like Kavanaugh thinks 2383 is enforcement legislation.
He might. But he’s careful not to say it. It’s another “tool.” To me that suggests 2383 is one “tool,” and Section Three is a different tool.
Kagan’s hypothetical doesn’t include the Insurrection Act in “subsequent congressional enactment,” you can tell from context (and “enactment” is singular), and the hypothetical only makes sense if there’s no enforcement legislation, which is how it’s taken.
I agree it’s all a bit indirect, but that was my takeaway. Especially in the context of the conversation about how “self-executing” is the wrong concept here anyway. That conversation was very direct.
Like I’ve told you before, it doesn’t really matter anyway whether 2383 is “enforcement legislation” or just “another tool” for accomplishing a similar goal in a different way. Either way it blunts the concern that Griffin’s Case means there’s no way to disqualify insurrectionists. So I suspect the court won’t feel the need to get into whether or not the Insurrection Act counts as enforcement legislation in the first place. Why would they? Maybe we’ll see one of Kavanaugh’s short, pointless concurrences where he dives into it for some reason.
Well Randal, hang on to your dreams another few days, until they are washed away like tears in the rain.
But I will say again I can’t see even one justice making a statement that supports your assertion, not a single one let alone all “I think they all agreed that 2383 isn’t enforcement legislation.”
When the decision does come down I can confidently predict that they will say 2383 is the only currently existing enforcement mechanism for national offices, whether or not they will allow it to be applied to the presidency I am less confident of.
I can confidently predict that they will say 2383 is the only currently existing enforcement mechanism for national offices...
Do you mean enforcement mechanism for Section Three, or enforcement mechanism for disqualifying insurrectionists from federal office generally?
Also, are you including Article I, ECRA, and impeachment mechanisms? Different justices seemed to think that some or all of those could also be used to give effect to Section Three. Personally I feel like impeachment works independently of Section Three (much like the Insurrection Act), but Congress has historically enforced Section Three through Article I in the past. I can't imagine the court disavowing that one. Then there's the ECRA. The ticking time bomb. They probably won't address it, leaving it ready to explode.
Randall, I think you’re confusing, “is careful not to say” and, “doesn’t see the need to make explicit”.
As you say, impeachment works independently of Section 3; So does the Article 1 power over the qualifications for Congress; They were using that on Confederates BEFORE the 14th amendment was even written.
The ECRA is, I think, going to be dicey to apply to Trump, with half the country viewing any attempt to disqualify him as just a way of stealing the election.
Really, they should either charge him with insurrection and put him on trial, or give it up. They've got no good excuse for not doing it if they actually think he's guilty, the failure to do it naturally leads to the suspicion they don't really think they can prove he committed insurrection.
Randal, that's such a confusing mishmash i don't know where to start.
The only thing I will say, but I doubt you will understand it, is the only possible way to disqualify Trump, or any other otherwise eligible insurrectionist, is legislation using section 3 authority, and the only existing law/tool is 2383. Nothing else will get it done.
Yep that’s pretty clear. But I disagree.
1. Impeachment
2. Article I
3. 2383 independent of Section Three
I agree with Brett on ECRA and would go one further: by its terms it does not allow Congress to reject votes on an insurrection / Section Three theory. They probably won’t say that in this case except maybe in a concurrence, but if it ever does come up, that’ll be the outcome.
The Enforcement Act of 1870 provided for those things; it did not "specify" them. Nothing in the statute even remotely suggested that these were the only ways to enforce A14S3.
Indeed, the criminal provision of the EA implies exactly the opposite. It doesn't make a conviction a prerequisite for disqualification; it makes disqualification a prerequisite for conviction!
Nothing in the Statute did.
Griffin's case said Congress had to do it.
Kagan made the point. Kavanaugh and Mitchell went over it, and brought up Congress could pass new legislation.
If its the only way Congress provided, then its the only way to get it done. Mitchell brought up Sea Clammers doctrine:
"In the absence of strong indicia of a contrary congressional intent, it must be concluded that Congress provided precisely the remedies it considered appropriate."
And if Griffin's case was the last word on the subject, then I guess I'd have to agree that A14S3 is not self-executing. Fortunately for me, Griffin's case is not. It's just an old and wrong circuit court decision — and one written by a single judge, at that. (Yes, I know he was also Chief Justice. But he wasn't acting as Chief Justice.)
And would you stop about Kagan? She did not endorse the argument. Maybe she will, but as of now, all she did was ask a question.
Also, the "Congress acquiesced" argument is just stupid. What exactly was Congress supposed to do, if a court said that Congressional action was required? If Congress didn't pass an enforcement mechanism at that point, then the amendment wouldn't have gone into effect. If Congress did pass an enforcement mechanism, then people would say, "Aha! Congress passed it so it must have agreed with the court!"
Sorry Dave,
I know how irritating it can be when someone keeps making an argument over and over, repeatedly when you aren’t buying it.
But at least we will have this argument settled within a week or so.
I don’t think you will agree with how it’s settled, but I’m pretty sure the end of the case is nigh.
I'm sure, too. What I'm not sure about is how much damage the Court will do to the cause of originalism when they do it...
How is the question "governed" by a circuit court decision?
No one likes a nitpicker. Let's say "guided," instead.
That's a "nitpicker" issue?
Did you enjoy your studies at South Texas College of Law Houston?
Its also by the Chief Justice of the time, a former member of Lincoln's cabinet. It carries extra authority.
Ex parte Merryman is important for the same reason, its not some mere circuit judge but the Chief Justice
It carries extra authority.
Not under any cannon of law, it doesn’t.
Just under the cannon of ‘Bob likes the case.’
It in no way is binding or persuasive authority. It can be cited to if it has good reasoning, and a brief would like to adopt it. Unless the Court wishes to make some very new common law interpretive rules, that is it’s full precedential value.
Cannon? Jesus . . .
Sarc long ago confessed to using dictation software, which often can't distinguish homophones (probably the same reason for "it's" instead of "its"). But what exactly he went back and edited while still leaving all that is a puzzle.
That is utterly untrue; I don't use dictation software. You're either a liar or confidently mistaken.
I just do a buncha typos.
Someone please declare Marshall law already!
You don't like Marbury v. Madison as I recall. So as usual it is all bets are off for Bob, but he'll pretend, just for us, that he's got an opinion within the bounds of this conversation.
Justice Kagan did not appear to have an issue with Griffin.
Kavanaugh and Kagan clearly seem to think it is not only Griffin's case, but Congress' clearly deferential response in the 1870 Enforcement Act that "liquidates" ("stare decisis on steroids") Griffin.
Then see Alito and Goresuch's tag team on Murray asking if a self executing Section 3 would allow a Military officer to ignore a lawful order from his CIC. It had Murray backpedaling, and conceding that impeachment is the only path to remove a sitting President. So much for self execution.
Murray might have well said "Chase had it right in Griffin".
In this case, the entire court has decided that consequentialism is the most valuable tool to decide. Then they'll find some excuses that they can write about.
I agree insofar that Griffin is consequentialism, but you hardly have to search far for excuses to defer to a 155 year old court decision that Congress immediately took to heart and complied with.
I mean, you could read the endless array of things he's written on the subject. He hasn't shut up about it for months.
Graber's ramblings are just based on legislative history and what he believes the drafters "must have thought", which is subordinate to the actual text of the Constitution.
[Graber] hasn’t shut up about it for months.
Neither has Josh.
The difference is that Blackman has actual text and history and apparently a Supreme Court on his side, while Graber has a bunch of epithets.
I think Blackman and Tillman have engaged Graber's arguments extensively. Perhaps not to your satisfaction or not convincingly, but they certainly haven't been ducking them.
As for Graber's points about the argument specifically, they are more than a little misleading. Graber claims Thomas asked counsel for "any example of state efforts to disqualify federal candidates during Reconstruction" and then points out that there wouldn't have been any former insurrectionists during that time (1868-1872). But Thomas didn't say that. He specifically asked about the time period "after Reconstruction and after the Compromise of 1877." Tr. 69:3-4. Likewise, Graber falsely claims that Roberts asked about the 1868-1872 time period. The transcript doesn't bear that out.
Graber has done a nice job demolishing an argument that neither Thomas nor Roberts ever made. Between that trick and lecturing Jackson about how to do woke historical analysis, it doesn't seem to me Graber has added as much light as heat to this discussion.
Sheesh, you think that is well reasoned?
"No one other than Justice Sonia Sotomayor appeared to be interested."
When you've lost 9 diverse justices, 2 Blacks, 4 Women, 1 Latina, and a Jew, appointed by 5 Presidents over 30 years, maybe the facts, not your argument that is the decisive factor.
"Roberts spouted as bad history when he asked why Republicans would trust former confederate states to implement Section Three in good faith. This would be inexcusable Dunning School history, excused only by Roberts’s lack of historical knowledge. From 1868 to 1872…. Republicans, many of whom were former enslaved persons, controlled southern state governments. Republicans trusted states that permitted black men to vote."
Talk about "spouting bad history", Congress passed the 14th Amendment in summer of 1866 (ratified.1868), and Graber is saying Congress is relying on the fact that 2 years later Republicans will have transient control of the states? And the 15th Amendment ensuring the rights of Blacks to vote wasn't proposed until 1869 and ratified in 1870.
Here is some real history showing how much reliance could be placed on the former Confederate to reliably enforce Section 3: "In September [1868], Georgia expels three black senators and 25 black representatives from its state legislature, prompting Congress to re-impose federal military rule in the state and barring Georgia's representatives from holding seats. *Georgia was readmitted to the Union on July 15, 1870."
And its Roberts spouting bad history saying Congress wouldn't trust the readmitted states when Georgia did that 2 months after the 14th amendment was ratified.
Graber is a clown.
I wonder if Josh has anything to say about Graber’s other points.
tl;dr: They're moronic
Some justices sought to neuter perceived Radical Republican constitutional reforms by offering distinctions between federal and state offices that neither exist in the text of Section Three nor in history of that provision’s implementation. The justices imagined that presidents who foment insurrections are nevertheless exempt from constitutional qualifications.
The justices can count past ten, even with their shoes on. just like the people who wrote the 14th, but unlike modern leftists.
So the ones who can count know that no one was going to win the Presidency with just votes from the former Confederate States, and that therefore, unlike with members of the House and Senate, there was no cause to fear that an actual traitor would be elected President by the voters of America.
And therefore no Consitutional restriction was needed.
Numerous briefs by leading historians are great cures for insomnia. Other than that, their innumerate political babbling has no value to anyone with a functioning brain.
Which is why 8 members of SCOTUS completely ignored them
Republicans during the drafting and ratification process declared that Section Three disqualified from all federal and state offices all past and present federal officers who engaged in insurrection.
Which explains why they name checked the Presidency, just like the did for the House and Senate,
Wait, what's that? They didn't? in fact they had the Presidency listed there at one point, and then pulled it out?
And in the Ironclad Oath—the "statutory precursor to Section 3", they explicitly included "elected" officials (unlike Section 3), but explicitly EXCLUDED the President, and didn't mention members of congress (them being the only other "elected" Federal officials).
How do you people get so stupid you can't master basic math, basic history, or basic reading comprehension? Does it take practice?
"Reconstruction was a “tragic era” in American constitutional politics. Republicans interested in the spoils of government sought to empower African-Americans incapable of governing. The result was corruption, misgovernance, and black on white racial violence"
What part of that isn't true?
Reconstruction WAS a tragic era, in part because it took another century to finish what ought to have been finished by 1870, and would have if Lincoln had lived.
It had been illegal to teach a slave how to read (for a reason) and the consequence of that was that the Freedmen were illiterate. Now I don't care how bright you are, an illiterate Congressman is going to be nothing more than a puppet. Someone who was illiterate would have no way to know what he was voting on -- and had to rely on said Republicans to tell him.
As to corruption and misgovernance, can you say "The Grant Administration"?
The "black on white racial violence" was something else -- the Union Army acting as Police Officers. And it wasn't really Black on White violence as much as it was Drunken Soldier on White Civilian violence, and the worst thing you can do is have combat troops policing a vanquished foe (who had killed their buddies). What you try to do is rotate in fresh troops without the painful personal memories, and that wasn't done here.
Some Rebel complaining about Black on White violence -- it's quite easy to conclude that the Rebel deserved it.
Gotta break it to you, Ed, it being illegal to teach slaves to read in some of the Southern states didn't mean they were all illiterate; People break laws. Quite frequently, even.
You didn't need a very high level of illegal literacy to fill those legislative seats.
"You didn’t need a very high level of illegal literacy to fill those legislative seats."
...and still don't.
Yawn. While this take is reprehensible, it’s pretty shopworn at this point. Push yourself, Dr. Ed—you can go way crazier!
Are you alleging congress persons today are literate? Facts very much not in evidence.
(Has Guam sank yet?)
There’s enough stiff competition that I don’t want to be too definitive, but this could well be the least self-aware statement Prof. Blackman has ever made.
Disregard the bluster and it is possible Blackman is realistic enough to know that his side has lost the culture war and that his sad, obsolete, ugly political preferences are doomed as America continues to progress.
There are 75 million potential Anders Breiviks in the USA now, AIDS. They don't, cannot, and won't trust your government anymore. They're not fascists either; you're pushing them to anarchism.
Accordingly, have you purchased cemetery plots for your loved ones? (Do you think you'll be permitted to bury them?)
Are you sad that your entire culture is dying, Yankee Doodle? Is THAT why you troll here every day? It's your fault, of course.
Think, too, of all the hours you've spent on this blog. That's a sizable portion of your life, AIDS. Why have you wasted your life thus? Is it because you're a useless twat? 🙂
Do you regard the hours the Volokh Conspirators have devoted to this blog -- advocating the losing (culture war), weaker (modern marketplace of ideas), wrong (history) side -- to have been wasted?
Or does the steady stream of vile racial slurs and other bigotry -- a middle finger flashed at their betters -- make it all worthwhile for you faux libertarian misfits?
I’m not a libertarian, AIDS.
The Volokhers are in-group ideologues who enjoy chatting with each other. You have dedicated time, every day, for years, to throwing superficial abuse and charges at them. You’re a petulant twat and a great example of why civilized people CANNOT respect Americans.
You’ve your own COMPLETELY false ideology (about inclusivity, what constitutes progress, equality, dignity, rights, etc), one that is belied not only by logic, but also your fellow ideologues actions both within the USA and internationally. (And, of course, by your own behaviour here.)
More importantly, your country is going to implode and your values are dying. You most certainly are not on the ‘right’ side of history; you’re going into the garbage can. If you weren’t such a parochial American, you’d see that both ‘sides’ of your colour war, your ENTIRE zeitgeist and culture is moribund.
Your comprehensive social (and global) re-engineering project is also doomed, AIDS. You can continue to style yourselves as being ‘liberals’ and ‘progressives’ all you like; you’ve nevertheless been unmasked as (unskilled) totalitarians and megalomaniacal imperialists. (Even your 'libertarians' are anything but.) You’re on the wrong side of history. The new rulers of the world will dismantle all of your legal, political, and cultural artifacts and efforts.
Y'all wouldn't be so angry if you were winning.
The American Blue Teamers or the Globe?
If the Globe, then you obviously don't know many Chinese people. The world is going to be their oyster and they know it.
For us in the rest of the West, by contrast, we feel, quite rightly, that you've fucked over our civilization for no good reason other than your own hubris. Yeah, people are angry. They openly talk about puppet American governments now. It's not going to be pretty.
China is a failing country. It's huge and rich (collectively, though per capita, not so much), and of course it can coast on that for quite some time. But its birthrate has collapsed, and the real estate sector on which it has built its economy is in shambles.
You're not in the west; you're in Moscow.
St. Pete's, surely?
IDK about Tillman, but Josh strikes me as as much a consequentialist as anyone else. "If originalism cannot overturn Roe, why should I be an originalist?"
Oh, I certainly am not trying to suggest that Prof. Blackman in principled. But the last thing he's committed to is reality.
Alito must have taken Blackman's lament to heart.
Is Mark Graber related to Lathrop?
I wondered about that.
🙂
I'm sorry Justice Jackson (oh), I am for real
Never meant to make Josh Blackman cry
I apologize a trillion times
I'm sorry Justice Jackson (oh), I am for real
Never meant to make Josh Blackman cry
I apologize a trillion times
Seth and Josh Blackman, got's this thing going on
(They got a special kind of thing going on)
You say it's puppy love
They say it's full grown
Hope that they up stuff, make it up forever
You might know about real history
But Seth and Josh will just say, "Whatever," Justice Jackson
I'm inclined to say Prof. Blackman has a good point here.
Just generally, if you are a white guy whose impression is that Ketanji Brown Jackson is making a segregationist Jim Crow argument, you need to check your work very carefully before you commit to that position. It's not that it's impossible to be true, but it is certainly unlikely. Justice Jackson isn't in the business of caping for the Jim Crow South.
I think there's a lot of people who jump very quickly to conclusions about race in modern discourse without checking their work. They do this because arguments based on race have a lot of power, especially in liberal and academic circles. But it's important to slow down and make sure you are getting things right before you do this.
Actually, I am inclined to agree.
I happen to think that Prof. Graber makes some very good points about history in his post. Even so, I would check, double-check, and triple-check my work before making a post that prominently features Justice Jackson (and next most prominent is Justice Thomas) with the implication that they are regurgitating racist history.
And after triple-checking it, I'd probably delete it and then write the history without centering it on those Justices. It's not a good look.
.
What kind of dumbass would believe or contend that race-based arguments are not especially powerful in right-wing circles?
A Volokh Conspiracy-level dumbass.
Carry on, clingers. Your betters will continue to let you know just how far they will permit you to go, of course . . .
Is Justice Jackson the next "Black face of white supremacy"? Who knew?
She does have a White husband. Maybe she does believe in White supremacy.
These are your fans, Volokh Conspirators, and your target audience . . . and the reason you should prepare to be asked for your keys and passwords not so long from now if you work at a legitimate law school.
AIDS, what do you expect the casualty rate to be when America's culture war turns hot?
Does Prof. Volokh's departure from UCLA's campus count?
No, I was thinking more in terms of body counts and in terms of who actually bears arms in your country (let alone the percentage of your military and police forces which viscerally hate your lot now).
Theendoftheleft : "...I was thinking more in terms of body counts..."
Another mighty right-wing keyboard warrior, full of “courage”, “bravery” and “fortitude” from the safety of his mommie’s basement…
You mean the safety of living a different country.
Theendoftheleft : "You mean the safety of living in a different country."
.... in your mommie's basement. A safe space indeed!
My friends in Warsaw worry every single day about a Russian invasion. They're in that situation SOLELY because of your idiotic meddling in Ukraine over the last few years. And given how you got out of Dodge/Afghanistan and fucked over our allies there, they have no reason now to think you won't fuck them over in Eastern Europe too.
So, I wouldn't begrudge them for one second if they sought safety in their parents' basements.
1. You? Friends?!?
2. If you DO have friends, I doubt seriously they’re as ignorant as you. There’s a reason Poland has been one of the staunchest supporters of Ukraine. They remember history even if you don’t know what the word means.
3. It’s funny that you – a dumbass lackbrain rightwing troll – are talking about “fucking over” Eastern Europe, when it’s your fellow dumbass lackbrain rightwing trolls who are doing the “fucking over”
4. Though I doubt such ironies are easy to see when you’re a whiny snowflake loser trolling from mommie’s basement.
Do you think your comments mean anything to me? How can something be ‘ironic’ when it’s not real? Can’t you do better than that?
My Polish friends have every reason to know, and remember, that you abandon your allies at inconvenient times.
when America’s culture war turns hot
And what, exactly, will you be fighting for? This is what none of you domestic terrorists can answer. Fox News has you all lathered up and so… you’re going to go kill your fellow Americans so you won’t have to wear masks in the next pandemic? Like, what do you hope to gain concretely? A total ban on drag shows?
I know that what you really want deep down is for us to like you. But killing us isn’t a good way to go about it.
This guy isn’t an American. I don't remember where he's from, but he's not going to be anywhere near the glorious Revolution against Wokeness.
Yeah, I think you’re right.
Ok, guy, what do you imagine your American counterparts are going to be fighting for?
I'm not American. Pretty sure that your countrymen have every good reason to be royally pissed, though. Amongst other things, you have:
1. Engaged in a massive population replacement scheme.
2. Imposed a totalitarian ideology that prioritizes certain groups over others for jobs (NOT, as the traditional Left regularly notes, for corrective justice, but for a comprehensive social re-engineering scheme). You openly use Orwellian and former Soviet bloc tactics for language policing and thought control. You talk ad nauseam about 'inclusivity' whilst demonizing the values of people you dislike. (And remain silent about the fact that those values are shared by many millions of your immigrants.)
2. Helped to gut the middle class, yet want millions of illegal aliens (unskilled illiterate labour) because you don't meet replacement rate.
3. Created an unsustainable world order.
4. Have a seemingly insurmountable debt and wish to continue to balloon it to sustain an ulterior agenda (the dollar as the reserve currency).
5. Your Blue team lawyers and jurists lie at every opportunity, about everything.
6. Have committed your country to creating and sustaining an international order that doesn't actually accord with their values, and which is falling apart now (yet, which they have good reason to suspect you'll continue to expect them to fight and die for).
Sic semper tyrannis, big guy.
Ok so you can't count. That's data.
And you failed to answer the question. Yes, I know why people are angry. I want to know what they think they're going to get out of a civil war. Killing off all the Democrats? That's unbelievably dumb.
That is a datum? Those are data? OK, you don’t speak English.
You, not just the Wokerati, are ruining their country and are going to fuck over their children socioeconomically. You can’t infer why they would have an agenda to restore their constitutional republic and to thwart a totalitarian social re-engineering project based on what was written?
What price, what deterrent, have they effectively imposed thus far to thwart these totalitarian developments? None. What reason do they have to think that things will moderate, will get better, more reasonable? None. What reason to think that things will get worse? Every.
This is obvious to everyone else in the rest of the West. Why isn’t it obvious to you?
Yeah cuz it's a democracy, which according to you, they want to "restore." So it's not a revolution. And they're in the minority.
Soooo... all you've got is this mystery word "deterrent." That's just domestic terrorism, right? America's had that forever. That's not new. And it doesn't work. People hate domestic terrorists, especially ones who are just doing it for vague "agendas," no actual concrete demands.
Who is supposed to believe your bullshit, Randy? Do you seriously think anyone in the world, across the political spectrum, believes that that is an apt label for your government? The con is over.
You asked for generalized set of a reasons, and now you think you're undercutting what was written because it wasn't precisified for you? Is THAT really the best you can muster?
Your country's coming apart at the seams and your government is losing both global and domestic legitimacy. The whole world can see through your totalitarian tactics now: salami slicing, desperate attempts to shift the overton window via language and thought policing, incessant propaganda and misinformation, grandiose social engineering efforts by imbeciles who lack credible knowledge and skills for undertaking such tasks. (Can you also name even one other Western country that duplicated, let alone supports, America's election law changes and practices in 2020?).
In your American jargon, who's supposed to believe, for even one second, that yours is a government of the people by the people for the people when that government treats the entire population as fungible commodities and wishes to socially re-engineer the nation's belief system, let alone through duplicitous means? That's the antithesis of democracy.
It's also not some tiny minority, Randy. The majority of your own country is horrified by your totalitarianism. The world is too. You will never recover from the reputational damage you've self-inflicted.
Then, there's your government's role in CRUSHING democratic norms and democratic processes in smaller, weaker countries that don't or won't yield the legal and social results your elites want for them. Democracy is great and good, except when other people don't want liberalism, or America's sex and gender ideologies, in their own countries.
America's has had 'domestic terrorism' forever? Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia, never Eastasia?
You should be deeply ashamed of who you are, Randy.
You asked for generalized set of a reasons
No, I crisply and clearly asked for a particularized reason from the very beginning, such as not having to wear masks during pandemics. They can demand the No Pandemic Masks Amendment at gunpoint. Is that it?
Nobody does a civil war for generalized reasons. How do you know when it’s over? You need some specific goals. What are they?
No, YOU rephrased your question when you realized I wasn’t American. You then wrote ‘Yeah, I think you’re right. Ok, guy, what do you imagine your American counterparts are going to be fighting for?’.
I then told you what many Americans would be fighting for and why. However, neither did I say they were my counterparts, nor that I had any involvement in any such thing.
YOU rephrased your question
Wow that's quite a stretch! You must be into yoga. Let me just state that you didn't even reply to the post that you quoted.
I get it, you have this manifesto that you're all wound up about. Fun! Let me know when you have an actual complaint, a specific one. Until then it's all just more hot air.
You’re not just projecting, Randy, you’re also conflating your effort to try to tease out, from a foreigner, concrete plans that Americans might themselves want to concoct with whether bona fide grounds for legitimate action were already presented.
Try harder.
I get it. You’re on a blog that’s meant to be about the honest exchange of ideas, but you’re really just interested in gaslighting, petulance, and hiding from reality.
Dude, Putin is overpaying you. This is just lazy regurgitation at this point.
The only common thread in his complaints is about the brown people.
The common thread is noting the pervasive, anti-democratic abuses of power.
You just invoke race to bait, and your sycophantic 'virtue signalling' by calling others Russian agents is pathetic.
You're not a libertarian, Nieporent. You're an anti-liberal apologist for a totalitarian social re-engineering project.
Lord, but you've swallowed every piece of rightwing shit you could get your hands on.
Most of the left, outside of the United States, believes this. And for very good reasons.
Perhaps you should try learning something about the world you live in.
*With the caveat that they also think your focus on identity politics and 'inclusivity' whilst doing these things is to distract from thinking about (1) class conflict and (2) imperialism.
One other thing that annoyed me about Gruber:
No justice spoke for the many contemporary historians who wrote or signed amicus briefs that offered accurate history in place of the racist bromides of the Dunning School.
This strikes me as a really stupid whine from someone who ought to know better. Oral argument is not about giving shout outs to historians. It's about satisfying concerns the justices have regarding the implications of arguments.
The justices are under no obligation to talk about ANY subject in oral argument. That's not what this is about. And Gruber is basically articulating a professional jealousy held widely by historians that the legal system ignores them and does something else, but even if that claim had merit generally, it has no place in discussing an oral argument, which has a totally different purpose from what the historians are doing.
I took Prof. Graber's issue to be not the lack of credit given to the academic historians, but rather the perceived failure of the justices to incorporate their accurate historical accounts, rather than the inaccurate ones that they seemed to be relying on.
Right. He's pointing out that the justices have no excuse for their Bad History this time.
Accurate history?
I seem to remember 25 mentions of Davis’s case where their was no trial, and a impasse between the two judges so no decision, and no appeal decided.
And 3 or 4 dismissive mentions of Griffins case which Congress treated as dispositive.
They focused on the history they liked, and buried the rest to reach their predetermined conclusion. I guess I’m becoming a criticalist here, they are writing the history they want to be true, not a literal truth, and certainly nothing people searching for legal history should credit.
You're finally starting to get it.
Congress didn't treat Griffin's Case as dispositive. That's just silly. It's a fiction invented by Trump's lawyer. It was not the "backdrop" to Congress's
Kagan didn't think it was silly she walked him through laying out why it was so:
JUSTICE KAGAN: -- is that -- is that what you're doing here? You're not saying that the Constitution gives you this rule. It's the kind of combination of Griffin's Case plus the way Congress acted after Griffin's Case
Her words. She interrupted Sotomayor when she started casting shade on Griffin's case to get Mitchell to say its not just Griffin, its Griffin and what Congress did afterwards that makes the rule.
Kavanaugh said much the same thing, invoking federalist 37 liquidation, which is quite the opposite of being silly.
but rather the perceived failure of the justices to incorporate their accurate historical accounts, rather than the inaccurate ones that they seemed to be relying on.
Except they did ignore the leftist liars and morons, so that complaint isn't valid.
As I pointed out here: https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/08/reply-to-prof-kurt-lashs-response-to-the-brief-by-profs-akhil-amar-vikram-amar/?comments=true#comment-10436614
The Ironclad Oath, the forerunner to Section 3, applied to “every person elected or appointed to any office of honor or profit under the government of the United States … excepting the President of the United States.”[49]
Now let's compare to Section 3:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States
1: President is elected by the whole Country. The Democrat traitors and their voters had no ability to get one of their traitors made into President. Unlike the case with members of Congress.
so there's no need to including the Presidency in the bans
2: Ironclad Oath includes "elected", and excludes the President. Leaving it covering members of Congress by virtue of them being elected.
3: The 14th does not include "elected", and so directly includes members of Congress. But doesn't include the President.
So what we know about any "historian" who claims "historical proof" the President is cover by Section 3 is that he or she is a lying sack of sh!t and a pathetic hack
Graber reminds me of football fan who's team has just lost a big game 35-7 and he goes on a post game YouTube rant about the refs centering on a missed holding call in the 3rd quarter.
But I welcome Graber's rant, it certainly does show the folly about spending too much time on the historians musings, they focus far to much on not what happened, but who said it or did it. The law must focus on what Congress or the courts actually did, not what case some Senator was involved in 10 years earlier.
.
And you believe right-wing lawyers are the best people to divine that? Better historians, in particular?
Do you also believe in the Tooth Fairy, the Bible, the Easter Bunny, the Easter story, and down-the-chimney Santa Claus?
These clingers are as pathetic as they are confident. No wonder they are uncompetitive at the marketplace of ideas.
So, you see that equality IS a lie!
Good, you're making progress, AIDS. Now you can maybe begin to see why your (parochial American) worldview is dog shit and why you're losing the global culture war.
Dogma is not the equal of science.
Superstition is not the equal of reason.
Bigotry is not the equal of inclusiveness.
Backwardness is not the equal of progress.
Fairy tales are not the equal of the reality-based world.
Insularity is not the equal of modernity.
Ignorance is not the equal of education.
Freedom is not the equal of authoritarianism.
Hillsdale is not the equal of Harvard.
South Texas College of Law Houston is not the equal of any top 100 American law school.
Russia is not the equal of the United States.
You're right . . . equality can be a lie.
American culture is not equal to Western European culture.
American law scholarship is inferior to that of other Western countries, especially given that academics in the latter are more likely to have be properly trained to be scholars.
Inclusivity is not equal to exclusion of inferior and backwards cultures. As the unis have demonstrate of late as well, inclusivity is a threat to excellence, to science, and to freedom.
Superficial materialistic cultures that don't meet replacement and which are FUNDAMENTALLY reliant upon mass immigration from traditional cultures aren't progress, let alone equal.
Now look into actual science about the distribution of intelligence.
Your values are doomed, AIDS.
"American culture is not equal to Western European culture."
America is large enough to have multiple cultures. And some of them seem to work better than Western European culture; US GDP per Capita by State Vs. European Countries and Japan, Korea, Mexico and China and Some Lessons for The Donald
"As the chart demonstrates, most European countries (including Germany, Sweden, Denmark and Belgium) if they joined the US, would rank among the poorest one-third of US states on a per-capita GDP basis, and the UK, France, Japan and New Zealand would all rank among America’s very poorest states, below No. 47 West Virginia, and not too far above No. 50 Mississippi. Countries like Italy, S. Korea, Spain, Portugal and Greece would each rank below Mississippi as the poorest states in the country."
Well, if there's any metric one ought to trust (let alone treat as being dispositive), it's GDP per capita...
So, your position is that relative poverty is a sign of cultural superiority?
Those commie socialists in Western Europe are who we should emulate?
Right, we do not believe in equality. Most things are unequal.
Being a law professor means never having to admit you were wrong.
I’m especially confused by this bit: “Senator Reverdy Johnson of Maryland correctly thought Section Three exempted the presidency, even though Johnson immediately recanted after being corrected by a Republican. Dunning School historians thought Johnson the greatest lawyer in the Senate. He had, after all, convinced the Supreme Court as the victorious lawyer in Dred Scott…”
So is Graber giving Johnson credit for recanting, even though he was a racist Lawyer (next he will be accusing John Adams of being a royalist for defending the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre, I thought that type of inference was discredited)?
In any case Jackson merely cited Johnson for the proposition that the question was ambiguous, not that his statement was correct, or that the recantation was, but that neither settled the matter. Her argument seems to me to be that “the text is enough to push me in one direction, and the legislative history isn’t clear enough to push me back the other way”. Not even close to what Graber's accusation that she is blindly following racist historians. Its text not history that is controlling, and the history isn't clear enough to overwhelm the text.
She said questioning Murray, after pages of textual discussion with Mitchell: “But then why didn’t they put the word “President” in the very enumerated list in Section 3? The thing that really is troubling to me is I totally understand your argument, but they were listing people that were barred and president is not there.” And: “the legislators actually discussed what looked like an ambiguity, you’re saying there is no ambiguity in Section 3?”
"We, Blackman and Tillman, are both realists. We have real doubts whether our amicus brief will convince any single Justice to vote differently than that Justice would otherwise have voted."
I'm not sure that certainty as to the correctness of your arguments combined with skepticism that others will realize that correctness counts as realism.
Prof. Kerr has become an easy-to-miss footnote at this blog. Blackman and Tillman provide its lifeblood.
Sounds like jealousy.
(Realism will change when the Supreme Court no longer has a six-clinger majority, though.)
The skepticism is warranted, but prospect having at least Goresuch and Jackson signing on to at least part of their theses must be heartening.
Roberts wrote a majority decision in Public Company Accounting Board (2010) stating "The people do not vote for the “Officers of the United States.” Art. II, §2, cl. 2." So he probably didn't need Blackman and Tillman to convince him. Thomas and Alito, along with Kennedy and Scalia joined the opinion. Sotomayor was among the dissenters.
Realistically I think Josh's position is good shape, but I don't know if its due to Blackman and Tlllman, Roberts seems to be an early adopter.
Blackman calling himself a "realist" is risible. He's a partisan hack who would be making the completely opposite arguments if a Democrat were in Trump's predicament. But since it's his fellow fascists, he's making these ridiculous arguments.
Except Tillman and Blackman have been making the "officers" argument since before Trump got elected in 2016.
If he's that prescient you got to just tip your hat in awe, otherwise you have to concede its a long held position that he would hold whether or not it benefited Trump.
See above for when John Roberts adopted the "officers" argument, I am pretty sure it was before Josh did, I am not sure about Tillman.
https://www2.law.umaryland.edu/images/facultystaff/MGraber.jpg
As the husband of a dental assistant, that photo really made me wince.
Don't visit the UK...
So...I guess they made a movie about Justice Jackson:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7349662/?ref_=fn_al_tt_3
we think it much more likely to move Justice Jackson into the "Trump" camp and towards the "President is not an officer 'of' or 'under' the United States" position than anything we have written or are likely to write in the future.
From your keyboard to God's ears...
Equal in moral terms and rights, if in no other sense.
Jefferson, who wrote those words, didn't really even believe it to be so in your limited sense...