The Volokh Conspiracy
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New Thoughts On The Timing In The Section 3 And Criminal Immunity Cases.
If the Court kicks the insurrection issue to the election, the Court may also kick the immunity case to the election.
Tomorrow (Monday), Trump's other lawyers will have file an emergency stay with the Supreme Court in the criminal immunity case. When I first read the D.C. Circuit's opinion, my initial inclination was that the Supreme Court would simply deny a stay, and let the lower court proceedings continue. Given that posture, a trial could be held in the next few months, likely with a verdict before the election.
However, after cogitating on the Section 3 case a bit more, I have some new thoughts. During oral argument in Trump v. Anderson, the Chief Justice did not seem interested in cleanly resolving the insurrection issue. Counsel for both sides urged the Court to definitively resolve the case. Jason Murray stated the issue plainly:
If this Court concludes that Colorado did not have the authority to exclude President Trump from the presidential ballot on procedural grounds, I think this case would be done, but I think it could come back with a vengeance because ultimately members of Congress may have to make the determination after a presidential election if President Trump wins about whether or not he is disqualified from office and whether to count votes cast for him under the Electoral Count Reform Act. So President Trump himself urges this Court in the first few pages of his brief to resolve the issues on the merits, and we think that the Court should do so as well.
Indeed, Baude and Paulsen have pivoted, and suggest that Congress may indeed be a "backstop" on January 6, 2025. Was the Court moved by these concerns about "vengeance"? Based on argument, probably not, though things can always change when the opinion has to write.
Still, if the Court does "punt," it would be based on a common calculus in Roberts Courts decision: if we don't have to decide this issue now, we may never have to decide the case. If Biden wins the election, who cares if Trump is an insurrectionist? If Trump wins the election with a majority in one or both houses, the joint session of Congress cannot disqualify him on January 6, 2025. And if Trump is inaugurated, the Court can defer to Congress's decision to certify Trump's election as evidence that he is not disqualified. Maybe Section 3 becomes a political question. Or maybe the Chief will save Trump by holding that the President is actually a tax. Another Roberts blue plate special! Details can be filled in later. The "vengeance" risk only arises if Trump wins the election, and there are sufficient Democratic majorities in both houses willing to disqualify him. (Jamie Raskin is not the median voter.) I'm sure the Chief has run through all of these possibilities.
Now, let's consider the possibilities with the criminal immunity case. If the Court takes no action, and denies review, a criminal trial will be held before the election, followed by an emergency appeal to the Supreme Court in September or October, with a decision on the eve of the election. By that point, a substantial number of ballots will already have been counted due to early voting. Who wants to deal with an emergency appeal so close to the election? If the Court grants a stay now, and adds the case to the rocket docket with argument in May, it will have to rush through a complicated decision on executive immunity after all of the delegates have been awarded. Trump's nomination would be a lock at that point. (FWIW, May oral arguments are very rare, but Brett Kavanaugh argued a case in June.)
There is another option. As I understand the posture, the lower courts rejected a claim for absolute immunity. There was no finding on whether as applied in particular contexts Trump may have had immunity. What if the Supreme Court remands for further fact finding to determine if, in the particular instances of January 6, Trump may have some sort of as applied immunity. I don't know if this remand is even possible, or if the rules even permit it, but it sounds like the sort of blue plate special the Chief could whip up.
What happens with this possibility? First, the Court would say nothing about presidential immunity now--whether absolute or as applied. Second, the Court would not let a three-judge panel, absent en banc review, have the final say on this complex issue. Third, it would force the trial court to spend several months going through elaborate procedures, and developing a record that may be useful for future appellate review. Fourth, and most importantly, this approach would kick the issue to the election. If Trump wins the election, his first act will be to order the AG to dismiss the prosecution, and he may even pardon himself. If Trump loses the election, the case can go to trial in 2025, and the Supreme Court can eventually hear the issue on direct appeal. Again, if Trump loses, the stakes will be much lower, since Trump is no longer a viable political candidate. The Court can resolve the case on its own terms, with much less pressure.
So to summarize, if the Court takes the path hinted at in Trump v. Anderson, with a remand now, the Justices may never have to decide the issue of criminal immunity, or alternatively, would have to decide the issue about citizen Trump, not candidate Trump.
Of course, I do not favor these sorts of dilatory tactics. I would much rather the Supreme Court cleanly resolve the Section 3 issue. (And I hope that the Chief Justice and Justice Kagan won't object to Justice Jackson writing about "officer stuff" with Justice Gorsuch; a short concurrence would take the wind out of the sails of a 1/6/25 disqualification effort.) And I would much rather the Supreme Court settle the bounds of presidential criminal immunity rather than a three-judge panel of the D.C. Circuit that truncated any possible en banc review. But I seldom get what I want.
We'll see what happens.
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...Trump's other lawyers will have file an emergency stay...
Usually I can guess -- but can't here...
Not knowing anything at all has never stopped you before!
IF Trump won but his ballots weren't counted, things would get very ugly.
Although cult members would upset, I do think a lot of people mistakenly think that if this happened, Biden would become president. In fact, Stefanik or whatever other sycophant Trump selects as his running mate would become president.
Is anyone who runs with Trump a sycophant in your world?
You’d either have to be a masochist or a sycophant to run with Trump. And I don’t think Trump is an S&M guy at his age.
I mean, look at Pence. Nearly lynched. Who wants that hassle?
"I don’t think Trump is an S&M guy at his age."
You never know.
"Nearly lynched"
You are such an ass.
Yes. Or a Deep State operative planning to undermine him from within.
But you misinterpreted my point, which was not that only a sycophant would agree to run with him, but instead that Trump wouldn't pick anyone other than a sycophant to run with him.
Is there any Republican that Trump could choose that you would find suitable?
I don't see how. I cannot imagine that there would be anyone who would accept Trump, and who Trump would accept, who would not be disqualified in my eyes for that reason alone.
A Republican who repudiated Trump would be okay to me, but obviously no such person could be picked.
I can't believe your world-renowned too-clever imagination is failing you here. If this hypothetical Congress truly is emboldened enough to override the electors' choice of President on the basis of in-suh-REC-shun theory, why in the world would they stop there and not boot his veep for consorting with the (just-declared) insurrectionist, committing insurrection themselves for supporting his presidency, or whatever other harebrained theory occurs to them? Since the whole mess would go to SCOTUS anyway, it's hard to see what they'd have to lose throwing the dice and going for the full win.
Uh, because not everyone is as craven as Trump and MAGA? In fact that has pretty much become the dividing line in our politics... policy has been jettisoned. If you want craven chaos, you're a MAGA, otherwise not.
"If you want craven chaos,..."
You must be sleep posting.
I was really, truly hoping that someone might be audacious enough to invoke the idea of "principles" in the context of a scenario where an opposite-party Congress were to unilaterally boot the winner of the Presidential election based on their own subjective views. You rarely disappoint.
Um. The idea is that's not gonna happen because principles.
I know you have none but that doesn't mean none of us do.
Of course that's a fine opinion for you to have, however detached from the last several years of seething reality.
But it's an opinion that really doesn't make any sense to throw into the middle of a thread expressly discussing who would assume the Presidency if Trump won but was DQ'd by Congress.
You asked a question.
Did you even bother to read the 12th Amendment?
The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate
.
I am confident Pres. Biden would address another insurrection attempt by MAGA dopes firmly and effectively. If Ashlii Babbitt's pals want to try again . . . bring it on, clingers.
Knowing they would be treated roughly this time, I figure the clingers will be all-talk losers this time around.
Punting was always the obvious option for the Chief, and I continue to believe it is exactly what they will do with the "insurrection" issue, in both cases. "No need to decide" in the ballot case (ruling for Trump on other grounds), and no review in the immunity case (petition denied).
>> "the lower courts rejected a claim for absolute immunity. There was no finding on whether as applied in particular contexts Trump may have had immunity."
My understanding is that this was a byproduct of Trump's primary goal of getting interlocutory review of the motion. He needed to assert that his immunity claim entitled him not to be tried at all, and so he made a sweeping claim. If he had, in more lawyerlike fashion, attacked one or two elements of the indictment on the grounds that a specific action was inside executive immunity, the government would have responded "still has to go to trial, so no need for interlocutory review" (or at least no need for a stay).
Of course, the narrow argument that specific acts were inside executive immunity or otherwise privileged under the First Amendment was always the only good argument. Smith appears to have carefully pled the claim (i.e., written the indictment) in order to make that argument as difficult as he could. (See, e.g., par.3 [acknowledging free speech and petition rights]) In the end, I think there will be a very interesting appeal that dissects all of this -- but I think it will occur in 2025, after Trump is convicted in DC.
It is good that you seldom get what you “want,” Josh. You’re a hack and a fool; a jurisprudence shaped by your just-so stories would be rendered irrevocably incoherent.
The lack of focus at oral argument on the factual “insurrection” question, and instead the focus on an oddly extra-constitutional and extra-legal question about whether states can decide that Trump is disqualified from running for President, suggested to me, not that the Court wants to defer the factual and legal questions to the point where they might be rendered moot (by the election of an historically corrupt and vile president), but rather is content to let Trump deal with prosecutions on that issue, without immunity.
Not that I want to invite yet another post on this asinine Fourteenth Amendment argument, but I felt caught unprepared for the conduct of the oral argument in that case. Judging from posts seen here, there seemed to be one strong, comprehensive argument for disqualification, and then a smattering of possible arguments for why Colorado should lose, ranging from “it wasn’t an insurrection” to the “President is not subject to disqualification because of the word used”, with the latter soaking up much of the anti-Colorado oxygen.
So I was surprised when the Court articulated the same kind of pragmatic considerations that are often voiced by the not-too-bright commenters here. I don’t find the argument very persuasive, but I also don’t find it very constitutional – just another instance where the Court pulls the cord to kick a difficult issue to dysfunctional political branches. Why does it seem like no one anticipated that as the Court’s preferred resolution? What is there to say about the constitutional merits of a holding based on that pragmatic concern?
The court itself never expressed any opinion one way or another as to whether Trump was an insurrectionist, however there were at 4-5 justices that expressed doubt as to whether the process used by the Superior Court was sufficient to reach that finding.
That point was made strongly enough that Murray, the lead counsel for the Respondents invited the Supreme Court to make its own determination of the facts. Which of course had seemed to be throwing the whole of the Colorado decision under the bus, with the forlorn hope that SCOTUS would perform CPR on its corpse.
If they thought the procedure CO used was inadequate, they were hardly going to rule on his guilt themselves with LESS procedure.
Much as I might be interested in discussing the point you're making here, Ted, I have zero reason to believe you've accurately understood or relayed the substance of the oral argument, and zero interest in tracking down the transcript so that I can delve deeper into this stupid case and rebut your take. So feel free to be wrong, or right. I don't care to discuss it with you.
Who cares what you feel like doing?
I don't care who cares.
Go fuck a lint trap, Bubbles.
Well, that vaguely introspective moment has clearly passed. Glad I refreshed the page and saw this before bothering with a substantive response to your original snark-veneered missive.
LOBBY, boy, you're a drooling mouth-breather, too, so why in the world do you think I'm at all bothered that I might not get a "substantive response" from you?
I don't understand all this court stuff.
I know! I'll insult someone. It's what I do!
(4 for 4 today)
"I don't know, and I've already lost, so I don't care"
Fair enough.
"So I was surprised when the Court articulated the same kind of pragmatic considerations that are often voiced by the not-too-bright commenters here."
But thanks for your kind words, I suppose if I'm going to make a lot of errors in my analysis of the issues, then I want to make the same kind of errors Kagan, Jackson, Barrett and Kavanaugh make.
In fact some some people, who don't know better, might even think that if I'm wrong in pretty much the same way the Supreme Court is wrong, then I'd be right. But you certainly know better.
But see pg. 77-78 of the transcript which Barrett summed up thusly:
JUSTICE BARRETT: But then that's saying
9 that in this context, which is very high stakes, if
10 we review the facts essentially de novo you want us
11 all to just watch the video of the ellipse and then
12 make a decision without any deference to or guidance
13 from lower court fact finding? That's unusual.
I don't think he was "inviting" the Court to do so; he was trying to reassure them that they could if they wanted, that as a matter of law Colorado didn't have the final word on the matter.
"that as a matter of law Colorado didn’t have the final word on the matter."
I saw a lot of comments claiming that as a matter of law Colorado did have the final say, that its fact finding was controlling on the matter. Its fact finding was so flawed it was never going to be allowed to stand. Just the coded language bit made it a farce.
Colorado has a Supreme Court, not a Superior Court.
Why does it seem like no one anticipated that as the Court’s preferred resolution?
I thought we all anticipated it. Which is why we were talking about offices and executions in the first place.
I thought we all anticipated it. Which is why we were talking about offices and executions in the first place.
My point seems to have been lost on you.
I mean, obviously. What exactly was your point?
I dunno, why did you think your comment was relevant? I was talking about what the Court has signaled as its preferred grounds for making a decision, which was unexpected. You responded in a manner suggesting that everyone anticipated a Colorado loss, based on some other grounds.
But that was exactly the point I've been making - Josh has been snowing us under with this "office/officer" argument, to the point that I don't even bother reading his posts. But the only support for that approach seems to be in an unexpected periphery of the Court. Roberts seems to want to decide the case on grounds that no one writing voluminously on the VC appears to have spent much time talking about.
I was talking about what the Court has signaled as its preferred grounds for making a decision, which was unexpected.
Unexpected by who, you? Normal people just write “which I didn’t expect” in that scenario. You’re making it sound like it was a surprise to everyone, which I don’t think is true… as you point out, pretty much all the commenters were talking about it, and some of the conspiracists too. Just not Josh.
What was a bit surprising to me was the vocabulary. Everyone agreed that “self-executing” wasn’t quite the right concept. But the substance was basically the same: no federal cause of action, and the states aren’t in a position to adjudicate the federal question.
"Why does it seem like no one anticipated that as the Court’s preferred resolution? What is there to say about the constitutional merits of a holding based on that pragmatic concern?"
What the grounds the court is going to rule on will be almost certainly that the 14th amendment as a whole takes power from the states, including the power to vote for insurrectionists, and the power to enforce that is Congress' power through appropriate legislation. And must be exercised through the only currently valid law that applies to disqualify insurrectionists: 18 USC 2383.
To say that's just a pragmatic concern isn't accurate, and to say no one anticipated it means you weren't paying attention because that argument didn't penetrate your cocoon.
If they really do say that, that is going to be a Pandora's box of a ruling, because states and federal courts have been enforcing other sections of the Fourteenth Amendment for over 100 years with no authorizing legislation from Congress.
And I don't think that it is accurate to say that the 14th Amendment "as a whole" takes power from the states. Some sections clearly do, but I don't see how section 3 is written to do that. The purpose of that section would appear to be keeping insurrectionist oath breakers out of office, and they seemed fine with it being enforced by any appropriate authority, local, state, or federal. Different sections of the amendment can have different purposes. That seemed like more shallowness in a very shallow discussion.
The argument is that states have no role in judging the qualifications of federal offices.
The constitution clearly gives states the role in judging qualifications for the Presidency, since it gives to state legislatures the sole authority to determine how presidential electors are selected. If states can do that and also direct electors how to vote, then aren't they judging the qualifications of a candidate for President?
It seems pretty clear from oral arguments this ruling is going to prohibit states from disqualifying presidential candidates based on 14.3.
Sure, states can determine how presidential electors are selected. But, they can't violate Equal Protection (14.1) in the process. And now, it will be considered a violation of 14.3 for states to determine what "engaging in insurrection" means.
They are not judging the legal qualification of a federal office.
Yes, they are. Age, citizenship, etc.
No it won't be a Pandora's box of a ruling because its based on Griffin a 155 year old ruling that only applied to Section 3.
Jackson pretty clearly subscribes to the idea that Section 3 was intended to keep primarily to keep confederates from regaining power in state and local elections. Congress could take care of its own, but having section 3 as justification put their judgement beyond dispute.
But even the Quo Warranto process of the Enforcement Act of 1870 seemed ill suited for presidential disqualification, since it depended on presidential appointees to enforce it and bring the action.
Ted, this argument is just as stupid as one might be inclined to expect from backwoods cabin-dwelling not-a-lawyer drafting amicus briefs working with yellowed, water-damaged and outdated print copies of the Federal Reporter.
"If Trump wins the election with a majority in one or both houses, the joint session of Congress cannot disqualify him on January 6, 2025."
I somewhat disagree here. What would happen if there are just a half dozen never Trumpers in the house and Senate who refuse to certify the electoral votes for Trump? It very well could end with Trump being disqualified and Trump's VP candidate assumes office under the 20th Amendment:
"or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify,
then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a
President shall have qualified;"
The Dems get Trump's scalp, but the Republicans get everything else.
And at least to my view completely constitutional, even though I don't think Trump is an insurrectionist, at least not with the evidence I've seen so far.
> Or maybe the Chief will save Trump by holding that the President is actually a tax.
Thank you for that. Beautiful. *chef’s kiss* 😀
I have a different thought and that is the Supreme Court will split the baby. Give Trump ballot access but deny him immunity. Chief Justice Roberts and the rest of the court does not want to take Trump off the ballot. Problem is that removal is pretty clear in the Constitution and the textual/originalist will have tough time working around this fact. I do think allowing states to make the decision is an invitation to chaos and the Court recognizes that. The immunity case also seems straight forward based on the appeal ruling. Giving one to Trump and one to the opposition might not be legally the best but it gives the court an out. Like the ACA decision in 2012 it saves the Court and unpleasant decision. It also allows for determination of the former President's guilt outside of SCOTUS.
"Problem is that removal is pretty clear in the Constitution and the textual/originalist will have tough time working around this fact."
An originalist has no trouble working around that at all: Removal is pretty clear once you've established somebody is actually guilty. Colorado followed the wrong procedure for establishing that, because federal insurrection law IS the enabling legislation for Section 3 at this time. I suppose Congress could have enacted enabling legislation allowing state courts to disqualify federal office holders in a civil hearing, but they never did.
So, until the feds convict Trump of insurrection in a criminal trial, even if Section 3 applies to the Presidency, it doesn't currently apply to Trump.
Ball's in your court: Either try to convict him, or go away.
An originalist has no trouble working around that at all . . .
Sure. But originalists are all lawyers. Read the historians' briefs. They say that conclusion cannot be squared with history.
What are Republicans going to do at last, after repeated unprincipled power grabs discredit every theory of legal interpretation they can think to try?
I don't think you quite grasp how badly that "We don't have to bother convicting him" stance comes across for people who didn't start out hating Trump's guts.
Bellmore, no one needs to credit the notion that criminal conviction is needed. Originalist history shows it is not needed. Tens of thousands were disqualified from U.S. federal office the moment the 14A was ratified. Everyone knows it, there is no ambiguity in the historical record about it, and nothing has been done since to change it.
Also, sources for that historical information are impeccable and in agreement; sources to the contrary are smarmy, ignorant, outcome-oriented hacks like Blackman. Blackman can barely claim legitimacy in his own field of law.
Nothing anywhere suggests Blackman is qualified to opine about history—let alone to do so as a professional rival of historians more eminent in their field than Blackman is in his own. For instance, look up the CVs of David Blight, Jill Lepore, or Jack Rakove. They are numbered among the leading experts in the world on the subjects they have reviewed and commented on with regard to the 14A.
Blackman—a pipsqueak in his own field—is an outlandish intruder among that company. Look up those experts' CVs if you doubt it.
Did you mean split the difference? Splitting the baby is a bluff to identify who has true allegiance with a practically indivisible item.
I don't think the court works on a calculus like that.
I certainly don't think the court wants to rule on the immunity issue at all, my guess is they will grant cert so in the hopes the issue may never be decided. They don't likely want Presidents to have unfettered immunity, and they certainly don't want them dragged into court all the time either.
After all it does seem rich that 9 justices who have granted themselves absolute immunity, are going to decide a case brought by a prosecutor who himself has near total immunity, against a president who is saying "let me into the club".
Nobody wants Trump in their club, so its probably best just to sit on the application.
My guess would be that at least 7 Justices agree completely with the DC Circuit ruling on immunity, and they will just deny cert.
Why not just summarily affirm, and dispose of the whole topic?
That's true, I suppose. If they just deny cert, that wouldn't prevent a different circuit from reaching the opposite conclusion.
It is not pretty clear, as all nine justices were very skeptical of this novel argument.
The comments here demonstrate why speculation like this is useless.
Everyone is bringing in their priors, and filling in all the required assumptions aligned with them.
This is all wanking.
Well if it feels good then don't judge.
Don't be a puritanical scold, nobody is going blind.
Long as no one thinks they're generating anything lasting or insightful, go wild I suppose.
"By that point, a substantial number of ballots will already have been counted due to early voting."
And here we have example #1,237 of why early voting is a terrible idea. A really terrible idea.
Absolutely.
And here we have example #1,237 of why early voting is a terrible idea. A really terrible idea.
Well, how many "examples" do we have left, once we cancel out all the ones that are just, "Black people shouldn't vote"?
Someone who respects the electoral process and trusts voters with making decisions for themselves would be inclined to say that "early voting" just gives those voters the option of voting early, not mandating that they do so before all the possible facts are in. Any eligible voter can decide that nothing between the date that they vote and the first Tuesday in November will change their vote, and they can vote accordingly. That's perfectly up to them. Or they can decide that they want to have absolutely all the possible information that might come out right up to the limit, and hold off until Election Day.
Why should the state be in the business of telling people when best to make up their minds? Why shouldn't elections be conducted in a way that makes it easy and convenient, for eligible voters, particularly when properly-administered early voting is no less secure than election-day voting?
There's nothing particularly magical about Election Day. It's just the day on which the elections have to be done. Information will come out after that, too; that's not a reason to push back Election Day, is it?
I think what you meant to say was:
“Black people shouldn’t vote” for Republicans.
Most black people agree.
"Well, how many “examples” do we have left, once we cancel out all the ones that are just, “Black people shouldn’t vote”?"
Exactly as many as we had before, MORON.
Disappointing, you're usually better than this, even when taking on considerable incoming fire.
I didn't think that particular bit of idiocy deserved better. At this point I've completely lost patience with the left's "Every policy we don't like is racist!" bullshit.
Like blacks are incapable of showing up on election day. That's such patronizing garbage.
I understand. By the way, I think early voting is very very GOOD idea, but that is a debate for another thread.
I can see limited justification for it, in the case of people who genuinely can't be available to vote on election day. Vital workers, people unavoidably traveling or scheduled for surgery, that sort of thing. The sort of thing for cause absentee ballots were originally dealing with.
The problem with early voting as a regular thing, is that it leads to different people voting on the basis of different information. In theory, with each day more information comes out about the candidates. Then it takes a while to spread, especially if there's a disinformation or suppression campaign opposing that spread. So the earlier people vote, the greater the chance that they'll cast a vote they wouldn't have on election day.
The problem with early voting as a regular thing, is that it leads to different people voting on the basis of different information.
Every single voter brings into the voting booth "different information." Some of them are wholly ignorant of recent political news; others consume news only from one outlet or media environment. So you need to explain why and how those kinds of "different information" are relevantly distinguishable from voting (or not) on the basis of October surprises or dirty tricks in the immediate lead-up to Election Day.
So the earlier people vote, the greater the chance that they’ll cast a vote they wouldn’t have on election day.
There is nothing magical about "Election Day," other than it's the day prescribed by law on which the votes must be tallied. Elections are about evaluating the preferences of the governed generally, not asa of that day. It does not really matter as of when a snapshot of that preference is taken, nor is it self-evidently problematic that people may express their preferences over an extended period of time, rather than in an "instant" on Election Day.
At this point I’ve completely lost patience with the left’s “Every policy we don’t like is racist!” bullshit.
And I've lost patience with the way the right tends to obfuscate, equivocate, and conflate lots of different points and arguments, into a miasma of emotional tripe whose only apparent thrust appears to be to disfranchise Black people, LGBT people, or "liberals" more generally.
In this case, you're making some kind of assertion that early voting is a bad idea. Why is it a bad idea? Are you actually asserting something about early voting, or are you throwing into "early voting" every other conservative bugaboo about absentee balloting, unattended ballot boxes, and whatnot? Are you pretending that most attempts to limit early voting aren't targeting (Black) voters organizing trips to the polls on Sundays after church?
Early voting addresses one of the key hurdles that stops people from voting on Election Day, which is that it requires reporting to a single physical location during hours in which people must work, pick up kids, etc. In NYC, my early voting spot happens to be the same exact same spot as Election Day polling, and it's administered the same way as Election Day voting. So what the fuck is your problem with early voting?
Anyway, I don't see how there's any reason or basis for the Court to delay on the immunity issue. It's pretty open and shut.
There does not appear to be anything time sensitive about the immunity issue, unlike a case regarding qualifications for an upcoming election, or a case involving a collateral petition for an emergency stay on a death sentence that had already been affirmed on direct appeal.
Obergefell v. Hodges went from cert filed to opinion in seven months. Cert was filed November 2014, case was decided June 26, 2015.
Nixon v. Fitzgerald was argued on November 30, 1981, and decided June 24, 1982.
I’m not making a prediction on this but it seems appropriate for (ugh) some judge made law.
There are legitimate concerns about a president worrying about courts and the next administration’s prosecutors second guessing decisions and trying to criminalize them.
There are also at least as compelling concerns about making the President above the law.
A solution might be for SCOTUS to hold two things: There should be a presumption that the acts a president takes in office are official acts legally within the ambit of presidential power.
And that the presumption, for each count, needs to be rebutted by clear and convincing evidence in a bench trial prior to the jury being empaneled.
I think that process would balance both concerns, and if the Supreme Court doesn’t do it, Congress should. In fact it would be better if Congress did it.
The alternative may be that every president routinely issues blanket pardons to himself, and his cabinet at the end of his term, which might encourage bad behavior.
A solution might be for SCOTUS to hold two things: There should be a presumption that the acts a president takes in office are official acts legally within the ambit of presidential power.
And that the presumption, for each count, needs to be rebutted by clear and convincing evidence in a bench trial prior to the jury being empaneled.
This is especially important as, Charlie Savage mentioned, this case involves "novel applications of criminal laws to unprecedented circumstances".
.
Are you saying a judge has to hold based on clear and convincing evidence the conduct violated a law before a jury can decide beyond a reasonable doubt whether the conduct likewise violated a law? That's weird. Why bother with the first step when it's a lower threshold?
Now perhaps instead you are saying "legally within the ambit of presidential power" includes conduct that violates the law had the conduct not been part of a presidential official act. But in that case, what's the dividing line between legally and not legally within the ambit of presidential power?
Well it is a difficult question, like for instance was it legal for Obama to order a hit on an American citizen in a country in which we were not at war, even though the citizen in question was planning allegedly planning terrorist attacks against American targets?
I think the strike was legally justified, others differ. I think a judge should resolve legal issues on the alleged facts before the jury gets the case and decides. And the judge may rule that a different standard applies, for example the prosecution may have to prove that not only did Obama knowingly order the drone strike, but he had insufficient reason to suppose it would prevent an imminent terrorist attack. Or that revenge for a previous terrorist attack was insufficient reason.
There are a lot more complicated issues with presidents other than did he do it or not.
.
Your hypothetical is well taken, but perhaps a trial judge shouldn't be making up the standard.
Well, trial judges always decide legal questions in the first instance, and then appellate courts get a chance to review, and then SCOTUS gets to have the last word if it wants. One can always make a motion to dismiss an indictment on the grounds that it fails to describe a crime / the charge is unconstitutional / etc. There's nothing unusual about what he's proposing other than the clear-and-convincing standard of proof.
Sorry, Josh, but Steve C previously posted a far more pro-Trump article, so in the race to be Trump's new legal
catamiteexpert, the Breeze is way ahead of you.Well, if it comes down to age, then Blackman wins the tiebreaker.
Besides Calabresi is a Never Trumper who enthusiastically endorsed Haley, it would never get to the tiebreaker.
This is nuts. SCOTUS needs to put politics aside and decide the merits of the case now. No punting, no legal gymnastics, rule now so we can move on to the election with out this issue creating chaos.