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Section Three Is Not A "Political Question"
[Note: This is the seventh in a series of essays responding to objections that have been made to enforcing Section Three of the Constitution. The first six essays can be found here, here, here, here, here, and here.]
Are questions of the proper legal interpretation and application of Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment nonjusticiable "political questions" – that is, questions that federal courts lack legal power to decide?
The simple answer is no.
The Constitution's text does not commit Section Three issues to the political judgment and discretion of the political branches of the national government. Questions concerning the legal meaning and application of Section Three involve standard and familiar questions of interpretation of the text, structure, and history of the Constitution, a task commonly engaged in by courts. Nothing about interpreting Section Three suggests an absence of standards for courts to employ in performing this task. Nothing about interpreting Section Three requires courts to make political policy judgments inappropriate for courts. Nothing about judicial resolution of Section Three questions implies a lack of respect due a coordinate branch of government, would disrupt a settled and vital political decision of government previously made, or somehow create an unacceptable "embarrassment" of multiple conflicting pronouncements by the national government. In short, none of the factors the courts have identified as relevant renders Section Three issues nonjusticiable political questions.
We thought this point sufficiently clear that we addressed it only briefly, near the end of our forthcoming article, The Sweep and Force of Section Three:
[I]t would be wrong for courts to refuse to decide cases, otherwise lawfully within their jurisdiction, concerning Section Three on the pretense that such matters are "political questions." Outside of certain exercises of power to exclude, expel, or impeach and try, committed to each House's judgment, Section Three is enforceable by the judiciary as well as by other officials. Section Three's terms embody rules and standards, enforceable as any other constitutional provision is enforceable. There is no freestanding judicial power to abstain from enforcing the Constitution whenever doing so might be difficult or controversial. (Ms. at 125).
We made the same point in a footnote, earlier in the article, in the course of discussing the circumstances in which each house of Congress possesses unique and arguably final authority under Article I, Section 5 of the Constitution to apply Section Three's disqualification rules to exclude or expel members of that house. Aside from those circumstances, Section Three issues properly can be decided by courts:
We emphasize that questions of interpretation and application of Section Three are not in general "political questions" that cannot be decided by federal courts, simply because they have political consequences. Where the Constitution supplies a rule, and the rule's application is not committed by the text of the Constitution to the judgment of one of the political branches, the courts are not disabled from deciding a case based on that rule. We simply think that the provision committing to each house the power be the "Judge" of the "Elections, Returns, and Qualifications" of its own Members does not permit judicial review of determinations of each house that properly fall within these constitutional categories." (Ms. at 30, n. 95.)
Some federal courts, however, and even some state courts (where the political question doctrine's applicability is more disputed), have issued confused and confusing opinions on the doctrine in Section Three cases. At the risk of taxing readers' patience, we explain here a bit more fully why Section Three issues are not political questions. We note that in the Trump v. Anderson litigation, both the Colorado District and the Colorado Supreme Court found Section Three to be justiciable and Trump has not pressed a political question argument in his Supreme Court merits briefs.
The standard formulation of the Court's "political question" doctrine comes from the classic case of Baker v. Carr:
Prominent on the surface of any case held to involve a political question is found [1] a textually demonstrable constitutional commitment of the issue to a coordinate political department; or [2] a lack of judicially discoverable and manageable standards for resolving it; or [3] the impossibility of deciding without an initial policy determination of a kind clearly for nonjudicial discretion; or [4] the impossibility of a court's undertaking independent resolution without expressing lack of the respect due coordinate branches of government; [5] or an unusual need for unquestioning adherence to a political decision already made; or [6] the potentiality of embarrassment from multifarious pronouncements by various departments on one question.
We have added the bracketed numbering of the various Baker v. Carr factors.)
More recent decisions of the Court have emphasized (almost to the point of exclusion of the others) the first two factors: whether the Constitution contains a "textually demonstrable constitutional commitment" of political or policy discretion concerning a matter to Congress or the President (such as an impeachment trial, as in Walter Nixon v. United States) or whether an issue lacks "judicially discoverable and manageable standards" to apply as law (such as political gerrymandering claims, as in Rucho v. Common Cause). The Court has also emphasized that a federal court has a duty to decide cases and issues properly it, even ones it "'would gladly avoid,'" and that courts "cannot avoid their responsibility merely 'because the issues have political implications.'"
Questions involving the meaning of Section Three are not political questions under these criteria. Section Three's application is not assigned by any provision of the Constitution to the exclusive political power or discretion of one of the political branches of the national government (other than, as noted, in the context of other congressional powers such as each house's power to exclude and expel its own members). This is especially plain in the context of presidential elections. Article II, section one of the Constitution specifically provides that states –state legislatures enacting state laws; and state courts and election officials in faithfully applying such laws – are assigned the constitutional power to choose the "Manner" of selecting their state's allotted number of electors for President and Vice President. The text does not explicitly refer to any Congressional power over presidential elections, let alone provide any "textually demonstrable constitutional commitment" of authority in such matters to Congress's exclusive political judgment.
To be sure, Congress, by two-thirds majority vote of both houses, can remove a disqualification from office imposed by the legal operation of Section Three's first sentence. But this scarcely assigns all matters of Section Three interpretation and application into Congress's hands. Quite the reverse: Where Congress is given exclusive political power and discretion in such matters – the power to remove disqualifications that arise in consequence of Section Three's first sentence – the text says so. Plainly, no such discretion is granted Congress as to whether a disqualification exists in the first place.
And so on. Congress's power under Section Five of the amendment "to enforce" Section Three (and other parts of the amendment) does not create a political question, just as Congress other enumerated powers (the Commerce Clause, etc.) do not. The Twelfth Amendment, which provides for a joint session of Congress where the votes of electors "shall then be counted," does not constitute a textual commitment of Section Three questions to Congress. Indeed, it is not clear that its terms give Congress any substantive power to judge the propriety or constitutionality of votes submitted by electors.
As we explain in our article, multiple actors have duties and responsibilities that may involve interpretation and application of Section Three (Ms. at pp. 22-35). Each such actor or body possesses the duty, and the authority, to faithfully interpret and apply the Constitution within the sphere of its responsibilities. This includes state and federal courts, which have adjudicated Section Three questions in the past and continue to do so. Nothing in the Constitution's text commits these issues to another branch in a fashion that excludes judicial authority.
Even more plainly, Section Three issues do not lack "judicially discernible and manageable standards" to apply as law. To the contrary, Section Three presents classic issues of legal interpretation that involve examination of "textual, structural, and historical evidence," as the Court put it in Zivotofsky. Much of our article is devoted precisely to examining such evidence: evidence that the text enacts a self-executing legal rule of direct effect; textual, linguistic, historical, and precedential evidence of the original contemporaneous public linguistic meaning of Section Three's terms "insurrection or rebellion," "engaged in," "aid or comfort" and "officer of the United States, and so on." This is a familiar legal task. In the Court's words in Zivotofsky, "This is what courts do."
It is also what legal scholars do. As we have explained and defended at great length in our article (Ms. 61-111), Section Three presents questions of legal interpretation that are susceptible of judicial decision according to principled criteria of "originalist" legal analysis – consideration of textual, structural, and historical evidence. The words, terms, and phrases of Section Three are sweeping but reasonably clear: they are broad in their reach, but not particularly vague or opaque in their meaning. The meaning of what all constitutes "insurrection or rebellion" and what constitutes having "engaged in" such conduct is illuminated by examination of 1860s general and specialized dictionaries; by evidence of 1860s contemporaneous public and legal usage of such terms by President Lincoln, by Congress in enacting major pieces of legislation (including the "Ironclad Oath" and the Second Confiscation Act), and by the Supreme Court (including in The Prize Cases); by earlier usage in insurrection statutes and to describe earlier, familiar insurrections; and by evidence of congressional understanding and early practice. These are classic tools of originalist legal analysis for ascertaining the meaning of language employed in a constitutional text. Section Three does not lack for "judicially discoverable and manageable standards" and does not present issues that are nonjusticiable political questions on this ground.
As noted above, it does not appear that the political question doctrine extends beyond these two considerations – a textually demonstrable constitutional commitment of such matters to one of the political branches or a lack of judicially discoverable and manageable standards for resolving the issues in question. But even if it did, interpreting and applying Section Three does not implicate these other factors – it does not require a nonjudicial policy determination, does not implicate "unusual need for unquestioning adherence" to "a political decision already made," does not trigger unusual respect for or need to avoid the embarrassment of the other branches, and so on. Applying Section Three can be a constitutional question of significant consequence, yes, but as the Supreme Court has long made clear, federal courts have no freestanding power simply to decline to decide legal cases properly within their jurisdiction simply because they may be difficult, inconvenient, consequential, or unwelcome.
As we put it in one of the last paragraphs of The Sweep and Force of Section Three: "There is no freestanding judicial power to abstain from enforcing the Constitution whenever doing so might be difficult or controversial." (Ms. at 125). To the contrary, all officials who swear an oath to support the Constitution have an obligation to do so, each within the sphere of his or her constitutional powers and duties:
No official should shrink from these duties. It would be wrong—indeed, arguably itself a breach of one's constitutional oath of office—to abandon one's responsibilities of faithful interpretation, application, and enforcement of Section Three. It is wrong to shrink on the pretext that some other officials may or should exercise their authority—as if one's own constitutional obligations cease to exist if others fail to act. And it is wrong to shrink from observing and enforcing the Constitution's commands on the premise that doing so might be unpopular in some quarters, or fuel political anger, resentment, opposition, or retaliation. The Constitution is not optional, and Section Three is not an optional part of the Constitution. (Ms at 125, emphasis added).
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Was this even a question? This does not mean it’s not badly abused by political motivations, like a criminal prosecution might be.
And forum shopping to get a partisan state to rub their chins and decide he's under the necessary infraction, to kick him off the ballot, thus deciding for the nation as a whole, is certainly the absurd result that should cause this attack vector to fail.
If you want to try a national concensus to decide a national issue, go for it.
If a "partisan state" does this, it must be partisan enough that the candidate disqualified cannot win that state, extending even to its judges; and how would that candidate ever win such a state? And that partisan decision decides only for that partisan state, unlike, say, Texas trying to invalidate the election laws of other states. Partisan as it may be, the Supreme Court is likely to decide the question and make forum shopping moot.
A gerrymandered state could have a legislature that is not representative of the majority of the state's voters, and that was the problem with the "independent state legislature" theory that tried to exclude judicial review; a number of states had Republican legislatures (due to gerrymandering after the 2010 elections that gave them control) but voted statewide for Democrats in current elections. Judicial review is much less prone to partisan capture because judges have much longer terms (even lifetime) and are not as partisan as other kinds of politicians. (In Colorado, eight judges appointed by Democrats split evenly on Trump's disqualification; 4-3 at the Supreme Court, 0-1 in the lower court.)
No, I don't think it means that. I think it means the levers of power are currently in Democratic hands.
But Biden only leads Trump by 6 points in the latest poll, which is certainly not insurmountable, especially considering its 41-35, that's a lot of undecideds up for grabs with 2 very well known quantities.
Contrast with Michigan where Trump leads by 5, but with 47% to 42. I wouldn't claim Trump has that locked up, even though he's almost as far ahead, with much fewer undecideds. 47 is only 3 points from being an insurmountable lead, Biden at 41 in Colorado is far from insurmountable.
You (and everyone else replying) are ignoring that Colorado did not do this because it's such a partisan state that it would disqualify a partisan opponent without cause; it did this because Trump is an insurrectionist, the 14th amendment says he's disqualified, and state law says only qualified candidates can be on the ballot. An unjustified partisan decision could only come from a state which is so partisan the improperly disqualified candidate could not win it.
All these replies assume incorrectly that any decision to disqualify Trump must be a partisan decision equivalent to disqualifying random Democrats for no reason, which is repeatedly threatened as payback (along with civil war, human sacrifice, dogs living with cats). Maybe try nominating someone who is not an oath breaking insurrectionist?
Being a partisan state means that you'll exaggerate how much cause you have. Do things like pretend that a committee all of whose members were chosen by one party is "bipartisan", for example.
Wow, Brett is still angry over Dennis Hastert and the Hurricane Katrina committee.
The state that disqualifies some candidate without valid reason would be like the state that assigns electoral votes against its popular vote; fake electors notwithstanding, no state did that in 2020, so Trump tried insurrection.
" like the state that assigns electoral votes against its popular vote"
A fair number of states are trying to negotiate an excuse to do exactly that, you'll recall.
I had to look up the details of that Katrina committee.
I see that the Democrats didn't want a normal committee, but instead an 'independent' one. By which they meant that, despite the fact that the Republicans had a majority, they wanted the committee split 50-50 so they'd be able to veto any findings. Rather than the normal committee where the majority party had an extra seat to break ties.
So, it's not remotely the case that Hastert refused to let them pick anybody they wanted; They could have picked anyone they wanted. They just wanted more members than normal, and had a hissy fit when they didn't get their way.
Kevin McCarthy wanted witnesses (and possible conspirators) on the January 6th committee. And had a hissy fit when they were rejected, and yanked back the others he had put forth. And Republicans drummed the Republicans who did participate out of their party. Republicans in the Senate blocked the independent January 6th commission. The common element? Republicans defending a Republican president from oversight.
Brett knew all that.
Pelosi didn't want a Katrina committee at all, she wanted an independent commission whose 10 members came from outside government, half nominated by Republicans and half by Democrats, following the model of the 9/11 commission. Rather than negotiate an independent commission Republicans wanted a special committee of politicians instead. Hastert appointed all Republicans to the committee when Pelosi would not nominate Democrats.
In 2021 Pelosi again wanted an independent commission. Although Democrats controlled (barely) both houses this time she offered to constitute it under essentially identical terms as she had asked for before - 10 members from outside government, half nominated by Republicans and half by Democrats. Republicans failed to support this commission too, preferring instead another special House committee they would try to staff with members who were likely to be subjects of the investigation. Pelosi appointed Democrats and two Republicans to the committee when Kevin McCarthy withdrew his nominations.
It remains, however, that the Republicans would have allowed the Democrats to pick their own committee members, while the Democrats presumed to tell the Republicans who they could appoint to the January 6th committee.
That is a fundamental and telling difference.
Jan 06 was different, and the GOP leaning into minimizing this direct threat to their persons and institution was also a new development.
Look at the facts of the case.
Maine assigns the Congressional District's EC vote to whoever won that district, and Trump HAS won Maine's 1st District (Northern 3/4 of the state). So this is not a state that he can't partially win.
But even more important, resources which Team Biden must allocate to Maine so as to ensure Biden gets the other 3 EC votes are resources Team Biden can't send across the river to New Hampshire which is a state that Trump *can* win, and that really is how this is a national election.
So even if it is a state that Trump (or Biden) has no chance of winning, taking him off the ballot in that state frees his opponent of having to expend resources in that state. For example, while Trump has no realistic chance of winning Massachusetts, all of the Biden lawn signs (etc.) that he has to send to Massachusetts are lawn signs (etc.) that he can't send to another state, eg. NH.
NH is weird because with the exception of Ch 9, it is the Boston media market, but all the Biden lawn signs in Amherst, Concord, & Salem MA aren't in Amherst, Concord, & Salem NH.
"So this is not a state that he can’t partially win."
And its Dem secretary of state has already disqualified Trump.
Contingent on the outcome of the CO case.
The secretary of state's was appealed to Maine Superior Court, and the that court stayed the decision pending a Supreme Court decision on the Colorado case. The Supreme Court is partisan, but not in a way that is likely to be unfair to Trump.
"how would that candidate ever win such a state?"
North Carolina has a Democrat as governor but a newly minted GOP supreme court majority. Trump won 2020 by 49.93% to 48.59% and 2016 by 49.83% to 46.17%. Its not a completely solid GOP state.
How about Georgia? Trump and GOP senators narrowly lost 2020 but all the state offices are GOP. Eight of 9 judges on the court were appointed by a Republican governor though technically non-partisan.
You think that either state would be able to disqualify a random Democrat? Georgia Republicans weren't willing to "find" Donald Trump the votes he demanded. Disqualify an actual insurrectionist of any party? Go ahead; Democrats will nominate someone else, and Republicans should too. But Republicans are stuck with Trump because they are too weak and scared of their voters to do what they needed to do (convict him at the second impeachment); they want Democrats to get rid of Trump for them.
I am just giving you examples of states that lean one way but are get-able in an election by the "minority" party. Not predicting.
But "aid and comfort" is in 14A too, usefully murky in meaning.
"they want Democrats to get rid of Trump for them"
Who is "they"? As we have seen, most GOP voters want Trump elected.
"Who" would be the GOP establishment, I expect. They'd really like to be rid of Trump, but don't dare leave their fingerprints on the murder weapon, because their voters like Trump better than them.
Yes. The Republican establishment is desperate to be rid of Trump without losing the Trump voters, without whom they would lose power.
https://twitter.com/DavidPepper/status/1752334561936122275
A cartoon by the "former chairman of the Ohio Democratic Party". Wow, solid argument.
It's funny because it's true.
"Georgia Republicans weren’t willing to “find” Donald Trump the votes he demanded."
That media paraphrase is never going to die, is it? Nobody ever goes back to the transcript to learn that he asked nothing of the sort.
Trump’s exact words were,
What do you think is unfair about Magister’s paraphrase?
You don't understand the difference between wanting to find something yourself, and wanting somebody else to find it for you?
Or the difference between wanting to find something, and wanting to "find" (sneer quotes) something?
Trump didn't ask Raffensperger for anything but access to go looking for irregularities he was sure were there.
Raffensperger pretended to meet him halfway: Trump alleged irregularities in one part of the state, so Raffensperger gave him access to a different part of the state.
If anyone ever finds themselves in Brett’s neck of the woods, be sure to stop by his home to see his bottomless pit of bullshit. Then treat yourself to a slice of blueberry pie at the local diner.
I expect they'll be out of pie given all the big city journalists interviewing Trump voters.
https://www.gocomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2024/01/19
Yes, and Trump was really only interested in rooting out corruption in Ukraine.
"You don’t understand the difference between wanting to find something yourself, and wanting somebody else to find it for you?"
Yes, Trump wanted to do it all himself, which is why he subsequently threatened Raffensperger.
Go fuck yourself Brett.
Back at you. He wanted to examine the ballots and voting records, and Raffensperger was blocking him.
Asking Raffensperger to get out of the way was not asking Raffensperger to manufacture fake ballots.
It's ridiculous that you sincerely find 'oh I was asking to examine the voting records' in the phone call.
You aren't lying, you have just deluded yourself beyond reason.
No, he was asking Raffensperger to get out of the way so Trump could manufacture fake ballots. Kind of "Just leave me alone with the ballots for a little bit. Or let me store them in the bathroom at Mar-a-Lago until my people have counted them."
And he did threaten Raffensperger.
Professor Baude, I just wanted to thank you for your contributions to VC this week. I have learned a lot. It is why I come here. While I am not sure I agree with some of your conclusions, this layman appreciates that you took the time to explain your POV in a readable way.
That, I really appreciate. Thanks for that.
Hear! Hear!
Trump must be god's gift to Constitutional law scholars...
The issue has a potential political element. The Framers provided for this element by giving Congress the power to remove the disability. This power represents the appropriate conduit for political considerations. If Congress chooses not to act, however, the matter is fully justiciable by the courts.
Indeed, giving Congress an express power to REMOVE the disability implies that if Congress does not act, the disability remains in place. I believe this textual feature undermines arguments that Congress must affirmatively act for the disability to be effective.
I have argued that, in the special context of presidential elections and the unique constitutional scheme that applies to them, state legislatures’ Article II plenary power over elector appointments gives states independent power to cabin who the state’s electors can be permitted to cast their votes for, and this power creates a potential independent state-law ground for Colorado’s decision to disqualify Mr. Trump. The Supreme Court could decide to uphold the Colorado Supreme Court’s decision on this alternative ground. However, this does not make the question non-justiciable.
I see you didn't finish reading the article.
But you Leftists have made it a political question, at least in the public perception sense, if not the legal jurisdiction sense. I'm assuming your every assertion would magically flip if half a dozen purple States declared Biden a traitor and ineligible due to any of a laundry list of things (Burisma and the failed border execution of law being only 2).
This is all just your typical Leftist will to power by any means necessary.
I still say IT WASN'T AN INSURRECTION and it is a fraud to say it was.
It was a riot. We've had lots of riots -- was the Chicago 1968 Dem Convention an insurrection? I'm sure Mayor Daley would have agreed.
The Capitol is just a Federal Building, like a Federal Courthouse.
The deciding factor in any such case would be whether Biden is a traitor outside the most ludicrous conspiracy theories. Impeach him and get a half dozen Senate Democrats to vote to convict, and then let’s see. House Republicans can’t even impeach Mayorkas, though.
Conviction requires two-thirds of the members present, that's 67 votes if all the seats are occupied.
Yes; an acquittal of Biden in which some Democrats voted guilty would be more convincing than if no member of the President's party voted guilty.
Andrew Johnson, a Democrat? No Democrat voted guilty.
Bill Clinton, a Democrat? No Democrat voted guilty.
Trump, a Republican? One Republican voted guilty the first time, and seven the second time.
(It may be that a senator would vote guilty on a president of his own party knowing that it will still be acquittal; Susan Collins plays that game with legislation. But presidential impeachment doesn't seem to draw that sort of game playing.)
I'm not addressing whether Biden would be found guilty but what might make my assertions not "magically flip". I see strong evidence that someone is guilty, I'm going to call it; I see no evidence of guilt, I'm going to call that. I don't have the opposite tribalism from those who worship Trump. Strong evidence of Trump's guilt: "Trump looks guilty". No evidence that Biden has committed treason or any other crime: "Biden looks innocent".
It must be somehow comforting for you to think that everyone who thinks Trump is crook is a "leftist". What bothers you so much about non-leftists sharing that opinion of him?
Moreover, there is not a single thing about Trump which is not a political question. And that's mainly because he insists (USUALLY IN SCREAMING CAPS) that everything about him is politically motivated.
Believe what you want, but that won't make it true.
Wondering out loud... Has a President who engages in war without Congressional consent engaged in insurrection? He has, after all, engaged in violent, armed military action in contradiction of the Constitution, so he might meet an inferior court's sweeping interpretation of A14S3. What about a war using only informational and mis-informational weaponry of the sort my taxes currently fund... could an inferior court infer insurrection due to a war conducted by a President without Congressional consent using only such means an insurrection?
A broad interpretation of A14S3 leaves open many nuanced questions. It seems to be the wise and proper role of the Court to narrowly interpret A14S3 (and A14S4... and perhaps even A14S2), applying it only to the capital-I Insurrectionists it was [improperly and] originally intended to shame and punish and thereby deliberately removing the Court from any controversy which might arise. As an alternative, the legislatures of 34 states could demand Constitutional Convention to resolve the matter... and to consider other matters, too.
If nothing more is clear, A14S3 was never intended to give any element of the Judicial Branch any form of supremacy over the Executive or Legislative Branches. The Judicial Branch also remains without its own army and remains reliant on the Executive Branch for all enforcement power. This does not make any matter a political question; some matters remain as non-justiciable as they ever were.
The Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments remain as monuments to the fear embodied in evil and non-forgiving, yet victorious, warmongers: so afraid that they might still loose the war of public opinion, the warmongers put the Amendments in place. Just look at how today's fearful embrace them! Stalin couldn't ask for more.
I'm actually a LITTLE worried about point 4 : "[4] the impossibility of a court's undertaking independent resolution without expressing lack of the respect due coordinate branches of government;"
I'm willing to accept that a state or federal court can order a state secstate not to list Trump on the ballot for a primary or general election... but some of the OTHER possibilities for issuing orders make me... nervous.
For example, can a state or federal court....
Order a state party caucus not to choose trump?
Order a national party convention not to choose trump?
Order a state secstate not to certify trump as having won the statewide general election, in cases where he DID appear on the ballot?
Order a state secstate not to permit a slate of trump-chosen electors to be certified the winners, even if all the Electors swear that they're not BOUND to vote for Trump, they just happen to have been chosen to be on the same GOP SLATE by Trump?
Order a duly elected and certified slate of electors to simply cast their votes for anyone except Trump, on pain of contempt of court?
Inform Congress that certifying Trump as the electoral winner would have no meaning?
Can a court Order the Veep to invoke the 25th amendment stating that Trump is unable to hold office?
Can a court invoke the 25th amendment DIRECTLY, by ITSELF, even though nothing in the text says a court can do that?
Can a court remove trump from office as president, WITHOUT going through the 25th amendment?
Because somewhere on that list of questions.... it feels like at some point, we need to admit that we've entered "Type 4 political questions" territory.
Well the Colorado Supreme Court not only ordered the SOS not to put Trump on the primary ballot, they also ordered that no write in votes for Trump could be counted.
Speaking of which, they had the Nevada GOP presidential primary yesterday, Trump was not on the ballot. Just Haley. Pence, Scott, and a couple of random names.
"None of These Candidates" won with 63% of the vote.
Kaz...Politics can be very hard on the ego. I will say that.
"Well the Colorado Supreme Court not only ordered the SOS not to put Trump on the primary ballot, they also ordered that no write in votes for Trump could be counted."
That was just straight statutory law. The law actually says that if you're not qualified for the office, they're not supposed to count write-in votes for you. So once they found he wasn't qualified, that was a given.
Nevada Republican delegates are awarded through its caucus; candidates can't be in both the primary and the caucus. I expect Haley went with the primary because she would not win against Trump in the caucus, but a victory in the primary would maybe provide some momentum. (But she lost to None of These Candidates, which was probably Trump voters, since registered Republicans could both vote in the primary and go to the caucus.)
I think she was hoping that enough Republicans would pass up the primary on account of it being meaningless, that she could win it. Instead she just embarrassed herself further.
I really do wonder how long she's going to hang in there, knowing she can't win.
She's betting on Trump flaming out, for 2024 or 2028. Sent to prison, chokes on a hamberder, loses spectacularly in November, defects to Russia, whatever.
No, for the same reason a President who gets a parking ticket or beat a spouse or issued an executive order later struck down by the courts hasn’t engaged in insurrection. Insurrection has a specific definition; it means violently attacking the institutional government of the United States.
Any old violation of the law, any old act of violence, any old action “contrary to the constituion,” doesn’t qualify. Levying war on a foreign power, even if unauthorized, is something wholly and obviously different from violently attacking the institutional government of the United States itself.
And consider the implications of the argument. If we let courts adjudicate murder cases, they might decide a parking ticket is murder. Perhaps they might. It is after all using a dangerous weapon (an automobile) to violate the law. The argument a parking ticket is murder is probably just as sound as the argument an unauthorized foreign war is insurrection. But the Constitution simply doesn’t have, or authorize, that much distrust of courts.
But a mere riot in a governmental building, even if it inconveniences the government, as riots often do, is not an "attack" on the government.
An attack is an attempt to destroy, an attempt to kill.
There is a big difference between drinking Nancy Pelosi's beer and attempting to murder her. I think she'd even agree with that.
Likewise there is a big difference between breaking windows and trying to level the building. A big difference.
The rickety gallows that almost fell apart on its own was symbolic speech, it was not a genuine attempt to murder Pence. While there may have been genuine security scares, members of Congress weren't being shot with live rounds (as HAS happened in the past). And notwithstanding the faux pipe bomb scare, real bombs weren't going "bang" inside the Capitol, as has also has happened in the past.
And why haven't they caught the perp who left those suspicious devices (which is all they were) outside the RNC/DNC? They have the MetroCard number, and a vehicle license plate number, but *still* can't ID the perp? Or do they not want to?
It was not an insurrection...
I agree with Dr. Ed, for once! It's the object of the riot that determines whether it is an attack on the government (and hence an insurrection). Here, the object was to seize power despite having lost the election.
Except, it has to keep being pointed out, that the people who actually broke in, and who were convicted after a criminal trial of planning to, were not apparently attempting to seize power.
And no evidence has been demonstrated to show that the guy they're actually trying to disqualify ordered the break in. He wasn't trying to seize anything, he was trying to persuade members of Congress to miscount the EC votes.
"Persuade" being the important word. He wasn't threatening them with anything worse than not being reelected.
That's just weird argument, Brett. The people who pleaded or were found guilty of planning to break in or broke in, nearly universally gave evidence that they were doing it to let El Caudillo del Mar-a-Lago seize power.
And they had reason to give that testimony, provide that evidence—because Donald Trump's final rally was only the focus point and culmination of what he'd been telling them several months before and two months after the election
Jan 6th began on Dec 19th when Trump tweeted at 1:42am, “Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election… Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!“…followed later that morning by “Now Republican politicians have to fight so that their great victory is not stolen. Don’t be weak fools!“ He was priming his followers—including many groups and individuals primarily interested in overrunning the Capitol, especially White Nationalist shock troops and militia wanna-be’s relatively uninterested in attending a rally—aiming them at his June 6th insurrection attempt.
So, Trump's Save America Rally morning of Jan 6th:
Representative Mo Brooks(R-AL):
Rudy Giuliani, the President's personal attorney:
President Donald J. Trump:
...and they did, and we all watched what happened when they got there.
At 1:19p Trump went into his dining room and avidly watched TV coverage of the mob violence. During this time, many people including his daughter, Ivanka, and Chief of Staff Mark Meadows were repeatedly begging him to send a tweet telling his people to stop and go home. Instead, at 2:24p, he tweeted this:
Two minutes later he started to call Senators and others, urging further objection to the electoral count before, at 2:38p tweeting:
…well short of telling people to stop rioting and leave the Capitol, as noted by Don Jr, who, one minute later, texted Mark Meadows:
…to which Meadows replied:
Ashli Babbitt was shot five minutes later.
At 3:13p, Trump sent another Tweet, which again did not tell people to stop and leave:
Not until 4:17p did Trump finally tweet a video message to supporters asking them to peacefully leave the U.S. Capitol.
At 6:00p, Trump tweeted:
And remember 4:17pm? Only after more than five hours of rioting, and only after the police finally received adequate reinforcements and had started regaining control, square foot by slow square foot, did Trump release a short video ambiguously supportive of the riot, ending with the words "So go home. We love you. You're very special."
...demonstrating his long-observed inability to ever criticize his supporters or their actions—no matter how bad—without reversing himself, either in the same statement or shortly after.
Why did he never tweet 'Stop! You're doing the wrong thing! This doesn't support our cause, it damages it!' Say, around Noon, as soon as it became obvious (especially to someone with the availability to information of the President of the United States) what was happening.
That's because the violent riot did support his cause, a cause directly opposing the cause of supporting the United States of America. As a sitting president failing to gain the constitution’s mandated periodic reapproval of the people, Donald Trump tried to block a peaceful transfer of power, provoking a domestic insurrection among his followers to nullify an election he unambiguously lost. But-for Trump’s purposeful actions, what we will forever remember as January 6th, would not have happened.
"The people who pleaded or were found guilty of planning to break in or broke in, nearly universally gave evidence that they were doing it to let El Caudillo del Mar-a-Lago seize power."
It simply doesn't matter. The Son of Sam killer thought a dog wanted him to kill people; Did that make the dog guilty?
You have to show that Trump directed them to do it, not that they stupidly thought they were helping him.
And nobody has produced that evidence.
There will be plenty of evidence...if we ever get to a trial.
Believe me, his co-conspirators will be flipping like Mexican Jumping Beans.
Brett: "that the people who actually broke in, and who were convicted after a criminal trial of planning to, were not apparently attempting to seize power."
Also Brett: "[that these people have admitted to attempting to seize power] simply doesn’t matter. The Son of Sam killer thought a dog wanted him to kill people; Did that make the dog guilty?"
What an inconsistent tool.
Any "ambiguity" about whether Trump wanted them to figuratively "fight like hell" or to actually "fight like hell" dissipated as soon as hundreds if not thousands of his supporters dutifully descended upon the Capitol and "fought like hell".
Unsurprisingly, many of those people who were arrested for the hellish fighting cited Trump's own directions as their motivation. So the people who were there and heard the words, and then did the deeds--and then attested as to the reasons they did so--are not to be believed? Because they're Trump-haters. Or federal agents. Or aliens...
The 14A disqualification also applies to "aid and comfort" to "enemies".
Those do not have a "specific definition"
I have noticed there is a lot of murkiness in many of these phrases. It makes me wonder what the individual Founders had in their minds as they cast their votes for these amendments.
I think the murkiness was intentional, personally. By design.
They were the ones in charge of enforcing it at that time, they didn't want any precise language that might tie their hands, I think.
I agree Brett. They were smart. Perhaps we should not try to artificially force precision where it is not needed.
Perhaps when people convinced they'll be the ones calling the shots write themselves a blank check, people a hundred and fifty years later shouldn't try to cash it.
I also think "its a political question" is an invalid argument. It lets in as much mischief as it forecloses. Certainly Congress deciding what proper grounds for impeachment are is a political question, not but what process someone accused of Insurrection is due, or whether Section 3 is self executing, or if Congressional is the exclusive remedy are not political questions.
The scope of Congress's power under the commerce clause, and collisions between exercises of state power are not political questions. Neither are similar questions under Section 3.
The clown show continues with more pointless articles by a couple of buffoons as they craft their story for an alternate universe. Their reasoning is not in any way of legal substance befitting of publication. Their mere opinion deserves a disclaimer, in BOLD, at the top and at the bottom, along each side too, and incased in a BOLD box of diagonal stripes of yellow and black.
Well then don't read it, and this isn't a publication, there is no publisher, its a blog.
The words, terms, and phrases of Section Three are sweeping but reasonably clear: they are broad in their reach, but not particularly vague or opaque in their meaning.
Repeating a lie over and over again doesn’t make it not a lie. “Insurrection” and “rebellion”, in particular, have obvious ambiguities and one of the worst habits of originalist scholars is to constantly lie and say things aren’t ambiguous just because they think their arguments are clever.
Put another way-- if something is unambiguous, it would not require ANY law review articles or "originalist scholarship" to show it. You'd simply read it and know exactly what it means. If you have to write the paper and do the scholarship, then saying "it's not vague" is a lie.
That's not what 'vague' or 'ambiguous' mean. You should be less sure of yourself.
I do think, if Congress refuses to seat a member of their own house on the basis of participation in insurrection, that it is a political question. But that doesn't mean courts can't or are prohibited from answering the question as well (or answering it in places other than Congress).
Congress has the Article 1 power to decide members are disqualified on any basis they want, they didn't need Section 3 for that, and they didn't wait for Section 3 to start doing it.
The Senate has the power, likewise, to decide nominees for positions they vote on aren't worthy of being confirmed, on any basis they want. So they can say it's on the basis of Section 3, and nobody can force them to confirm.
For the Presidency and state offices? No other basis for Congress to claim any such power, it's Section 3 or nothing, and the courts do have a license to stick their noses in.
SCOTUS disagrees with you.
If I'm reading your post correctly, I think we agree. I think it's clear that Congress has looked to Section 3 when using its power to determine qualifications, but that doesn't mean the power to determine if Section 3 applies is limited to Congress. To hold that would create a couple absurd anomalies:
First, as mentioned, it only applies to a specific house as opposed to all officers of the United States.
Second, because it only takes a majority to seat someone, but 2/3 to remove a disability, it creates a weird situation where 40% of Congress believes a person is ineligible and doesn't want to remove that disability, while a bare majority essentially circumvents the 2/3s clause and seats them anyway.
Congratulations Prof WILL BAUDE, and MICHAEL PAULSEN on your great discovery!!! You guys finally figured out the constitution does allow “un-democratic” removing political opponents from the ballots! Next, let’s just let democrats form a “bi-partisan” committee to pick a president.
Hooray! All legal or political problems resolved!
I've actually been arguing for a while now that it would make FAR more sense for each state to pick their electors two years early, and then just give the electors two years to hold try-outs to determine which presidential candidate they would vote for.
Reality TV might be involved, though, so it's not a perfect plan.
Given that impeachment is a totally political process, no.
Questions of errors in the conduct of impeachment or trial would not be justiciable; the House and Senate set their own rules. So the impeachment result wouldn't seem to provide much useful input to a judicial proceeding that can't evaluate the validity of the process that produced it. (And acquittal in impeachment and then being prosecuted is not double jeopardy.)
A majority of Senators voted to convict. Many who didn't reportedly voted no because they thought the Senate didn't have jurisdiction to try an ex-President. Mitch McConnell even made a speech to that effect during the proceedings. Should your non-technical consideration consider that many of the no votes were non-technical no votes, by Senators who claimed they were unable to consider the merits?
Well actually they were a broad assertion of power by the Federal government over the states, and on the whole mostly to the good. They helped assure the states could not become despotic islands in a democracy giving local and state governments power to trample rights regardless of the constitution.
Where we really went off base was the 16th amendment freeing up unlimited federal funds, and the depression era and wartime Supreme Court rubber stamping almost every power grab from Wickard to Korematsu, until finally some pushback came with Youngstown Steel.
I first took note of him a few months ago when he was giving us standard-issue Israel = Evil takes on the war against Hamas, and I assumed he was a lefty. But since then, he has been giving neoconfederate takes on all other issues.
The thing with the 14th & 15th is that they were never intended to apply to the North, the Victorious North was imposing them on the vanquished South without realizing that they would apply to them as well.
Well, I think that should be fairly decisive.
I’ve said all along that this is really a due process case; It’s not that Trump couldn’t in principle be disqualified, but the process CO went through in doing it was grossly inadequate for something of this magnitude.
Impeachment allows for imposing the convicted of disability to hold future office. But they failed to convict. Twice!
Call that the first two bites from the apple.
Conviction for insurrection carries that disability, but in three years they haven’t charged ANYONE, let alone Trump, with that particular crime.
Call that the third bite.
And Section 3 imposes disability, but is silent on the procedure for deciding if it applies. So they picked the easiest procedure they could imagine.
This is the fourth bite from this apple. It’s getting a bit absurd at this point, you get the impression that they’ll NEVER admit that he’s just not guilty. They’re always entitled to another bite a the apple, and every one is obviously going to finish that apple off, until it doesn’t.
So, what’s the next bite, assuming this fails? Will the DOJ finally work up the nerve to charge him with insurrection? Or will they dispense with the legal approach and just start shooting at him?
It's not so much that they weren't expected to apply to the North, as that the North figured that they weren't engaged in any violations to provide a basis for enforcement against them. And as originally understood, that was probably the case.
There really was very little going on in the North that either of those amendments would have proscribed. Some anti-miscegenation laws, sure, and that was about it.
[citation needed]
The thing with the 14th & 15th is that Dr. Ed is of course full of Dr. Ed. They were of course intended to apply to the North, who of course realized that these amendments would apply to them as well.
Why would they bother, if he's already been charged with enough felonies (for more easily proved crimes) that he's liable to spend the rest of his life in prison--and that's assuming he doesn't win and snuff the federal prosecutions or pardon himself.
There's no time to indict and try him for 2383 now.
"I’ve said all along that this is really a due process case; It’s not that Trump couldn’t in principle be disqualified, but the process CO went through in doing it was grossly inadequate for something of this magnitude."
And yet he and his lawyers have not made that argument, which strongly suggests that you're just a partisan dipshit whose primary business is moving goalposts.
No consensus of lawyers in this world can stand before the stark truth of BrettLaw.
Because all who disagree are lying and secretly agree with BrettLaw.