The Volokh Conspiracy
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Former Presidents Do Not Enjoy Blanket Criminal Immunity
So says the DC Circuit Court
The D.C. Circuit Court's opinion in US v. Donald Trump on whether the former president enjoys a blanket immunity from criminal prosecution for his actions while president is now out. It can be found here.
It is a comprehensive opinion, and I think a correct one. Given my own scholarly interests, I was particularly anxious about how the court might handle the claim that an officer who has been acquitted in an impeachment trial cannot be criminally prosecuted, but I think the panel handled that issue correctly.
Interestingly, the panel went with the distinction in Marbury v. Madison between discretionary and ministerial acts and concludes that discretionary acts are largely outside the purview of the courts. But acts that violate a constitutionally valid criminal law also violate the president's legal duties and thus cannot be understood to be purely discretionary acts within the constitutional and legal authority of the president to make.
The cases following Marbury confirm that we may review the President's actions when he is bound by law, including by federal criminal statutes. In Little v. Barreme, the Supreme Court concluded that the President's order to a subordinate officer to seize American ships traveling to or from French ports violated the Nonintercourse Act precisely because the Congress had acted to constrain the Executive's discretion. 6 U.S. (2 Cranch) 170, 177–79 (1804). Chief Justice Marshall observed that the President may have had the discretionary authority to order the seizure absent legislation but had no discretion to violate the Act. Id. at 177–78. Similarly, in Kendall v. United States ex rel. Stokes, the Supreme Court reviewed the official acts of the postmaster general, the President's subordinate officer who derived his authority from the Executive Branch, because the civil case involved the violation of a statutory requirement. 37 U.S. 524, 612–13 (1838). To find a statutory violation unreviewable, the Court held, "would be clothing the President with a power entirely to control the legislation of congress, and paralyze the administration of justice." Id. at 613.
Likewise, the court thinks the weight of functional considerations lean toward no blanket immunity in this context.
The federal prosecution of a former President fits the case "[w]hen judicial action is needed to serve broad public interests" in order to "vindicate the public interest in an ongoing criminal prosecution." Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. at 754. The risks of chilling Presidential action or permitting meritless, harassing prosecutions are unlikely, unsupported by history and "too remote and shadowy to shape the course of justice." See Clark, 289 U.S. at 16. We therefore conclude that functional policy considerations rooted in the structure of our government do not immunize former Presidents from federal criminal prosecution.
Particularly true that president cannot be understood to have blanket immunity for trying to steal an election.
We cannot accept former President Trump's claim that a President has unbounded authority to commit crimes that would neutralize the most fundamental check on executive power — the recognition and implementation of election results. Nor can we sanction his apparent contention that the Executive has carte blanche to violate the rights of individual citizens to vote and to have their votes count.
Court does not find Trump's argument of no prosecution if acquitted in an impeachment trial consistent with the text and purpose of the relevant constitutional clauses.
In drafting the Impeachment Judgment Clause, to the extent that the Framers contemplated whether impeachment would have a preclusive effect on future criminal charges, the available evidence suggests that their intent was to ensure that a subsequent prosecution would not be barred.
Importantly, court emphasizes that the impeachment process is a political process involving political charges and political punishments, and as such it does not trigger double jeopardy principles regarding criminal prosecutions in which criminal punishments are at stake.
In light of the very different procedures and purposes associated with impeachment proceedings as compared to criminal proceedings, former President Trump's reliance on the Double Jeopardy Clause is misplaced. Impeachment is not a criminal process and cannot result in criminal punishment.
We'll see what the Supreme Court does with this.
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To the people who will inevitably whinge about the party that appointed the 3 Judges on the unanimous DC panel, instead of considering the merits and understanding the well-written decision:
when your baseball team always loses, maybe it’s not because the refs are biased against you.
(yes, you’re probably also whinging that the GOP appointed Judge on the unanimous DC panel isn’t a “real Republican”)
Well, I’m not going to complain. I think the idea that Presidents have any sort of criminal immunity is batty.
The Constitution explicitly grants members of Congress very limited immunity. The notion that Presidents got BETTER immunity by mere implication?
Koo Koo for Cocoa Puffs.
Trump clearly believed he had immunity because his first military order as president was ordering the assassination of a little American girl and 9 of her little friends…apparently she called him a “poop head” and so she had it coming. 😉
Wasn’t it Biden who blew up the wedding party?
Brett, it is a really bad decision because every future President will be a damn fool not to give him/her/itself a full blanket (Ford-style) pardon on the last day in office.
He/she/it would be a damn fool not to do it, and pro-forma pardons are not a thing I want to see.
The counter-argument is that it’s been an ongoing corrupt bargain since Ford pardoned Nixon: Every incoming President gives the prior a pass on any misdeeds they committed, and expects in turn to be granted a pass on theirs. I thought at the time that pardon was damnable, (Probably the first thing politically I ever formed an opinion about.) and nothing since has changed my mind.
And it doesn’t even extend only to Presidents, it extends to their minions, too. Look at the slap on the wrist Sandy Berger got for going into the National Archives and destroying some documents that would have embarrassed Clinton. He should have been nailed to the wall for that stunt!
Presidents shouldn’t be above the law, it warps their conduct for the worse.
The problem with Trump isn’t that he isn’t above the law, it’s that,
1) He had no formal notice that HE wasn’t going to benefit from the ongoing deal. (Though he was an idiot not to have figured it out by the time he left office!)
2) A lot of the stuff they’re going after him on is utter bullshit.
The answer really is easier than suggested by that magnificent but unnecessarily expansive opinion for those who are faithful originalists, but then the courts would shoot themselves in their collective feet if they were faithful to the Framers’ message. In debating immunity of federal players, the Framers awarded it only to one player – congresspeople under very narrow circumstances. Therefore, under expressio unius exclusio alterius est, no other federal actor was intended to have any immunity, not judges, prosecutors, presidents, cops, etc. But the court couldn’t voice the Framers’ position without obliterating their own concocted immunity.
In Baseball, it would be the umpire who is biased. The “refs” are biased in Football.
/s
Correction accepted, thanks. I’m not much of a sportsball person!
Next step: Seek stay from SC.
As always, stay tuned as this is to be continued.
That is obviously the next step, but I can’t see any reason why the Court would grant cert., and if there’s no chance they’d do so, then there’s even less chance of a stay.
Curious as to why you think it certain that the SC would deny cert? This is a question that needs to be answered, definitively.
It has been. Conclusively. All that a Supreme Court review would do is take a judgment that is so highly persuasive as to be de facto binding on any other court that might encounter the problem and turn it into a judgment that is formally binding on all other courts. Which is quite a lot of effort to cover off an issue that hopefully won’t arise again for quite some time.
If this were to stand, you don’t think it would come up again in a Republican controlled administration?
Bumble, get back to us when a Democrat sends a mob to the Capitol to try to disrupt an election certification, after first trying to send fake electors.
Is there a potential for abuse by a future Republican administration? Of course. But there’s the potential for abuse with any criminal prosecution, so the only way to prevent abuse is to not have a criminal justice system. And here’s the best commentary I’ve seen on this:
https://www.popehat.com/p/bret-stephens-on-e-jean-carroll-verdict-against-trump
How about sending a mob to disrupt confirmation of a Supreme Court justice?
And it’s not like the ruling would be restricted to just the particular facts of legal attacks on Trump. If Presidents don’t have immunity, they don’t have immunity regardless of the crime you accuse them of.
Yes, if a president sends a mob to disrupt confirmation of a Supreme Court justice I would think that would subject him to criminal liability too. And if you’re going to what about, can you at least find something that’s an apples to apples comparison?
Brett, why would any sitting president send a mob to disrupt confirmation of his own Supreme Court nominee?
Except he didn’t send a mob to the Capitol to try to disrupt an election certification.
When you have evidence that he knew/planned the storming of the Capitol, gave the order to do it or knew it would be given, please let me know because I will be the first to demand he be charged for it. He has not in fact been charged with that to date.
Whether he has legal culpability for the fake electors, I await the legal process to further illuminate that. I don’t assume he’s guilty because it turns on nuances of law which nobody wants to talk about, assuming him guilty of trying to “steal an election” as if that’s a particular crime.
With love, A forever NeverTrumper, who thinks he should never hold high office and will never vote for him.
When you have evidence that he knew/planned the storming of the Capitol
The Eastman memos, alongside his tweet, alongside his reluctance to act when the insurrection started.
He’s been charged in DC under that theory of guilt.
I assume (Probably not a safe assumption.) you’ve read the Eastman memos, which I certainly have, and nowhere contemplate any violence at all. Let alone an attack on the Capitol.
Maybe you’ll point me to the bullet point where that comes up? Since you’re so confident it’s there?
Maybe you’ll cite the tweet that told people to break in?
I will gladly admit that he could have been a bit faster off the block in urging the rioters who he didn’t sic on Congress to back off.
If he’d reacted instantly, you’d probably be saying he knew the attack was coming…
‘nowhere contemplate any violence at all.’
Just be there and stop the certification and if any breaking in or violence happens it’s not my fault.
They’re not long Nige, you can read them yourself.
There’s absolutely nothing in there about any violence. The plan, whether you like it or not, was perfectly peaceful.
The Eastman memos discuss an pressure campaign on Pence. Trump’s tweets leading up to Jan 06 were a pressure campaign on Pence, including telling violent yahoos to go to the Capitol.
Eastman was at the Willard hotel coordinating with Trump on how to get at Pence.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/30/donald-trump-called-top-aides-capitol-riot-biden
Brett is being willfully blind.
Yes, Sarcastr0, a political pressure campaign. NOT a mob invading the Capitol. He wanted the Republicans voting to think they were committing political suicide if they didn’t say Trump had won.
Political, not literal.
The break in at the Capitol actually disrupted Trumps real plan. It wasn’t part of it.
‘The plan, whether you like it or not, was perfectly peaceful.’
Your faux naivete when it comes to Trump is a delightful contrast to the savagely evil motivations you ascribe to Democrats no matter what they do or say. The plan resutled in violence, whether they mentioned it or not, and they either take responsibility for what they did or they get magically absolved because suddenly plausible deniability is a real thing and not a cynical joke.
‘The break in at the Capitol actually disrupted Trumps real plan.’
This part of the plan failed, therefore it was not part of the plan. What a crock.
I can absolutely see Trump trying to get the DOJ to prosecute Biden for having an i in his name, or anything else he can think of. What I can’t see is Biden claiming that he can’t be prosecuted because he used to be president.
I suspect it wouldn’t be TOO hard for Trump to come up with some sort of basis for a prosecution. Remember, the existing precedent from the prosecutions of Trump is that it doesn’t have to be anything the ex-President’s supporters find believable.
And if he does? Of course Biden would go for that defense, if available. Why would he not?
Because using a loser unamerican argument isn’t really Biden’s style.
Trump’s aiming not just at the courts but at his cult. Plus he is a lot stupider and surrounded by stupider lawyers than Biden.
You don’t know it’s a loser argument until you try it, and of course Biden wouldn’t be above ‘unamerican” arguments if his freedom were on the line.
Like you don’t know what part of a plan will fail until it fails.
‘and of course Biden wouldn’t be above ‘unamerican”’
Biden constantly stands condemned in your eyes for things he hasn’t actually done. Trump constantly gets off scott free because the things he actually does don’t matter, no matter what they are.
It has been answered definitively. There’s obviously no circuit splits, there was no dissenting opinion here. The per curiam opinion didn’t express any uncertainty. There was no balancing test to come out differently. There’s no precedent to distinguish. This one isn’t a close call.
SCOTUS would have the opportunity to weigh in down the road on other legal questions, but these “immunity” ones are frivolous. SCOTUS isn’t going to say that actually a president is a king and can’t be prosecuted even after he leaves office, and there’s no reason for it to grant cert just to say, “Yeah. What they said.”
I was gaming this out in my head, and I think Trump’s best approach would be to call for en banc review. I can’t imagine that there’s any chance the D.C. Circuit grants such review (for the same reason that SCOTUS wouldn’t grant cert)… but, if he’s lucky, one or more right wing hacks on the Circuit Court — Naomi Reo, anyone? — might issue a scathing dissent from denial of rehearing. And that might convince SCOTUS to grant cert.
That would make sense in the event that SCOTUS orders a stay of the mandate of the Court of Appeals. Absent that stay, jurisdiction reverts to the District Court, and Judge Chutkan may put the case on a fast track for trial. If a petition for rehearing en banc is pending, the Court of Appeals (theoretically) could delay ruling on the petition until after verdict.
David, the President *is* king — the role was defined for George Washington who could have been crowned *as* King had he wanted to.
And what — exactly — is sovereign immunity? It’s that “The King Can Do No Wrong” — and that’s what is being argued here.
Or are you arguing that the King’s MEN enjoy sovereign immunity but not the King himself?!? That doesn’t make logical sense.
And if SCOTUS ever wanted to throw out sovereign immunity, to totally throw it out, this is the case to do it with — to rule that neither Trump nor any of his men enjoy it. At which point we will have the outgoing President issue himself a pro-forma pardon.
What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Yes, people talked about making Washington a king. And he dismissed the idea, it never went anywhere.
I can think of a reason. There may well be four votes to give Trump a bit more time to see if he can get some of his prosecutions pushed past the election in November.
I’ll be surprised, in fact quite surprised, if he can’t get four votes for the delay tactic.
If four Republicans on the court were willing to play politics this way, which I doubt, they’d also be intelligent enough to realize that Trump is the worst possible candidate the GOP could put against Biden. That would argue against delaying, so that another candidate can win the nomination.
A grant of certiorari takes four votes, but a stay of the mandate of the Court of Appeals requires five. As I wrote on the open thread, the Court of Appeals judgment provides as to issuance of the mandate:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cadc.40415/gov.uscourts.cadc.40415.1208593674.0_2.pdf
Donald Trump accordingly has until next Monday to apply to SCOTUS to stay the mandate, an action which requires five votes.
In Doe v. Mills, 142 S.Ct. 17, 18 (2021), in an opinion concurring in the denial of application for injunctive relief, Justice Bear It, joined by Justice Kavanaugh, wrote:
In that both Justices Kavanaugh and Bear It are likely essential to SCOTUS granting a stay, her reasoning there bodes ill for Trump.
Theoretically the Supreme Court could deny a stay of the mandate and later grant cert, but I don’t foresee that happening.
If the Court grants the stay, is it highly likely they will grant cert?
Yes, IMO.
OK lawyers — is it “fair” to just give Trump 5 days?
Is it POSSIBLE to put together an appeal in just 5 days?
Or could he bifurcate the matter and file an appeal on the 5 days right now and a substantive appeal later?
What about what I presume are Federal Rules of Court — and if Trump follows that deadline, can SCOTUS ignore the lower court’s fiat schedule?
Yeah, it’s fair and reasonable. It’s five days for an application for stay of the DC Cir’s judgment, not 5 days to file the cert petition. (It’s a petition for certiorari since Trump doesn’t have an appeal as a matter of right)
The answer to your question is right there in the comment by notguilty you responded to:
(Emphasis added.) If you’re still unclear on the concept: the application for stay and the cert petition are two different things.
There’s no reason to think there are. Also, while it only takes four votes to grant cert, it takes five votes for a stay.
One possible reason they might grant cert, which actually has nothing to do with Trump, is that they think they should have the last word on Presidential power issues.
Denying cert gives them that.
Not really. They always say that denying cert means nothing precedent-wise. And in this case it could be relevant because there are charged crimes in other states/circuits. Plus they can’t write some grand opinion on the matter.
Denying cert says “We’re good with what the lower court said. No notes,”
“As we have often stated, the denial of a writ of certiorari imports no expression of opinion upon the merits of the case.” Teague v. Lane, 489 U.S. 288, 296, 109 S.Ct. 1060, 103 L.Ed.2d 334 (1989)
Sure, it means nothing as far as national precedent. By leaving the D.C. Circuit opinion intact, though, that would leave it as precedent for the D.C. Circuit. And let’s face it, that is the circuit most likely to hear claims of presidential immunity.
The DC Circuit might be most likely to hear claims of presidential immunity, but it’s certainly not the only appeals court that could. The classified documents case is in Florida. The state election law violations case is in Georgia. The 11th Circuit has geographic jurisdiction over both cases. Thus, it’s not at all unlikely that a former President could raise immunity defenses outside the DC Circuit.
Plus the fake electors plot which is part of the Georgia case could still be pursued in other states that had similar instances of Trump and co. pushing this scheme.
The gravamen of the classified documents case involves conduct occurring after Donald Trump left office.
The Eleventh U. S. Circuit won’t review a Georgia state prosecution, at least not before considering a posttrial collateral attack under 28 U.S.C. § 2254.
Not every split needs to be between the circuit courts exclusively:
Rule 12(b): “a state court of last resort has decided an important federal question in a way that conflicts with the
decision of another state court of last resort or of a
United States court of appeals.” So a potential Georgia Supreme Court case could come up to them on the same question.
You are correct about that, but I don’t know that the matter would be considered prior to trial by the Supreme Court of Georgia. The D.C. Circuit determined that Trump was entitled to interlocutory review as of right as to the absolute immunity and double jeopardy issues as to which the District Court had ruled against him.
I haven’t done a deep dive into appellate review of interlocutory orders in Georgia criminal cases, but Ga. Code § 5-6-34(b) suggests that such review prior to trial is discretionary with the appellate courts.
The classified documents case is about Trump’s post-presidential actions. Even the MAGAiest of MAGA loons isn’t crazy enough to suggest that a former president has immunity for acts he engages in after he leaves office.
Unless there is that Obama executive order that is rumored — because then the documents were not classified.
Nothing in the prosecution turns on whether the documents were still classified.
Moreover, even if the document had been declassified, the must be protected as such until the distribution caveats have been struck through and the date and reason are noted on the document cover.
That had not been done.
All of the charges concerning Trump’s behavior rewould main unaffected
Reminds me of the “stripping of authority” doctrine of Ex parte Young. No, the President can’t be sued — unless he does something ultra vires.
We’ll see what the Supreme Court does with this.
Cert denied is my vote.
Yes. The three non-conservatives would want to affirm but the other six will realize that they shouldn’t touch this with a ten-foot pole.
Is it common for justice to vote for cert so they can affirm a decision?
I think so, if the Court thinks it’s important to make a definitive statement as to a point of law. Though here I imagine the three non-conservatives, realizing the possibility of reversal if the case were heard, would want to deny cert. as well.
They’ll also not want to delay the trial unnecessarily. I think the non-conservatives are a no.
An outcome-oriented liberal will decline the case to get Trump convicted this year. There is no need to set a national precedent for a unique case. Affirming the decision would only add months of delay.
The panel quoted Justice Thomas in what I took to be an attempt to keep him from voting to reverse the decision:
Trump v. Vance, 140 S. Ct. 2412, 2434.
“Absolute immunity” has holes so wide you could drive a truck through it.
With a 12′ wing plow on each side…
Although unlikely to occur, wouldn’t Trump’s first step be to seek an en banc hearing? My understanding is also that Trump’s attorneys have until Feb. 12 to seek a stay from the SC.
My understanding is that if he asks for an en banc hearing the stay is lifted. So this is almost certainly going to the SC, which may or may not impose their own stay.
Yea, that is correct, they have until
Monday to ask the supremes for the stay. I do not believe asking for en banc review would stay the trial, which presumably is their primary focus. I agree with others above that SC is unlikely to intervene at this stage. The panel went out of its way to quote kavanaugh and Thomas (and Scalia).
They have until the 12th to file appeal with the USSC, at which point they could seek the stay.
No, the February 12 deadline is for seeking a stay from SCOTUS of the Court of Appeals mandate. Whether such a stay is granted or not, a petition for writ of certiorari could be filed within 90 days of the Court of Appeals ruling.
I misunderstood.
Not surprising.
Bumble: ”this legal stuff is so over my head.
I know, I’ll insult someone. It’s what I do!”
Says the man who doesn’t own a mirror.
not guilty, I would like to ask you about trial tactics. You were a criminal defense attorney for a long time, 28 years IIRC. So not guilty, if you were advising POTUS Trump’s legal team on how to use legal process to delay this ad infinitum…what would you tell them to do?
Ask for en banc hearing
Wait ~88 days, then file for cert at SCOTUS
Do you file additional motions to the Court?
POTUS Trump is a billionaire. He has governmental like resources. So he can afford the best legal help out there. My question is looking at this from a trial lawyer perspective (the guy/gal who will argue this ion front of the judge). If I put myself in the defense attorney’s shoes, I don’t want the trial because I’ll lose.
However, I know legal procedure. Here are process things that my client can pay for that are perfectly legal, but will frustrate the system because they have to follow the process.
If money were no object, what would you do to slow down the process?
On February 12 file an application with SCOTUS to stay issuance of the Court of Appeals mandate pending conclusion of all further appellate proceedings, that is, pending final judgment in the event a petition for writ of certiorari is granted or pending denial of the cert petition. Obtaining that stay is critical.
If the COA mandate is ordered to be stayed, on February 20 file an application for rehearing en banc by the full D.C. Circuit (which will likely be denied). On day 80 after denial of the petition for rehearing, move Chief Justice Roberts to extend the deadline for filing the cert petition for 60 days. If that extension is granted, file the cert petition on day 150 after the denial of rehearing. If the requested extension is denied, file the cert petition on day 90 after the denial of rehearing. See that the cert petition includes defects in the form thereof, which will prompt the clerk’s office to return the petition for correction of the defects and resubmission thereof.
If SCOTUS declines to stay the COA mandate, jurisdiction will be revert to Judge Chutkan. Forego seeking rehearing. File a cert petition (in proper form) within 90 days of the Court of Appeals decision. It is possible that the trial will have begun before SCOTUS adjudicates the request for cert. Jeopardy attaches when the jury is sworn. If that occurs and SCOTUS grants cert after the jury is sworn but before verdict, the District Court would in all likelihood declare a mistrial. Litigate whether that constitutes “manifest necessity” for a mistrial to be declared — if not, the indictment must be dismissed with prejudice on double jeopardy grounds. Litigate the “manifest necessity” issue first in the District Court, then pursue all available appellate remedies thereafter. Since that involves an issue of double jeopardy, an interlocutory appeal is available as of right.
Thank you for such a complete response. It is amazing how easy it is to ‘gum up the works’ if that is what you want to do and you have money to do it. Just 1 or 2 procedural things here just add ~6 months to the timeline; we’re into September at that stage.
No way there is a trial between Labor Day and Election Day.
I do appreciate the forthrightness. I learn.
You presume that lawyers aren’t afraid of criminal persecution for representing Trump. No, I don’t think he can get the best.
But the decision on a stay comes first and and requires 5 votes. SCOTUS has no upside in granting a stay thereby allowing Trump to play his delaying game.
An obviously correct decision. This is America. No one is above the law.
I know that many yearn for a dictator or a king, and the plaintiff’s arguments basically boil down to embracing authoritarian governance, but this is America. No one is above the law.
“No one is above the law.”
Oh sure they are, it just depends on who they are.
Quite the admission.
At a blog by and for disaffected clingers no admission was necessary.
From what I gathered, the issue wasn’t whether anyone is “above the law,” it’s whether the new president can put the old president in jail, or if it’s Congress that has to do it.
No. In fact, we all agree that Congress can’t do it. The only thing Congress can do is remove someone from office.
Not literally do it, but whether it requires an act of Congress (convicting).
Are you confused? This is a criminal trial under a federal criminal law.
Put another way, the issue isn’t whether any one is “above the law” but a question of what the law is in regards to the prosecution of presidents, who holds that power and by what mechanism and procedure it is exercised.
The question is whether there is an unwritten special procedure for when Presidents do crimes.
Sure, like the unwritten special absolute immunity from civil suits.
While in office.
Forever, with regard to acts done while in office.
In the scope of his duties.
You want the government cut by 75%, but you also want a king?
You are commenting on libertarian site and are surprised to encounter people that favor minimal government?
Read the Federalist papers to understand why the executive power is vested in a president and why we nonetheless do not have a king by any stretch.
You want a President with the lack of accountability fit for a king. And with lack of accountability you support, it’s hard to see what the other branches could do, absent massive majorities.
Immunity for government officials is not in keeping with the small government line.
Seems more ‘only one man can give me the radical change I need’ populist authoritarianism that has never ended well ever.
I did not say I disagree with this ruling. Your other non-sequiturs are not worth responding to.
This ruling says the president is treated the same as any other person (at least generally, there might be specific exceptions yet to be revealed in other cases that don’t apply to this case). The power is held by the DOJ and its exercised through the normal indictment and trial process.
“The power is held by the DOJ”
More precisely, the power is vested in the President.
OK. So what?
Nothing, I agree otherwise.
“Not literally do it, but whether it requires an act of Congress (convicting).”
An act of Congress to criminally punish someone would be a constitutionally prohibited Bill of Attainder.
Trump is treated as above the law. He gets impunity from contempt charges which no other defendant would get.
That in turn encourages more contempt. It enables Trump to parade as a candidate already more powerful than the justice system itself—pure catnip for his base, an enhancement to his political fund raising, and a likely goad to increase turnout on Election Day.
Worse, the uncontrolled contempt promotes stochastic terrorism against the judicial process, puts lives in danger, and cannot fail to deliver an impression that judges, witnesses, and juries may quail in fear for their own lives or safety.
That in turn encourages witnesses friendly to Trump to hold out against testifying. They may reasonably hope that if he does get reelected he will pardon them of any convictions they face.
Trump should already be in custody waiting trial on at least the J6 charges, and the Florida documents case. If Trump were in custody, and held in conditions typical of those afforded others (albeit with necessary security allowances), the likelihood that Trump would continue to try to delay court dates past Election Day would be less.
Trump is treated as above the law. He gets impunity from contempt charges which no other defendant would get.
Not that you can show.
Publicly smearing court personnel (and precipitating threats against court personnel).
Muttering theatrically for the jury, including after being directed by the judge to shut up.
Violating a court order.
How many lawyers have seen other defendants treated with the leniency exhibited toward Trump?
Hunter Biden is.
Eric Holder is.
Lois Lerner is.
etc
Hate to break it to you, making LTBF angry is not actually a crime.
Hunter Biden was charged.
You want a prediction? The gun charge is going to get dismissed
So will at least some of the Trump counts. Your point?
No point. Just prognosticating.
The President was intended to be.
The law does not apply or is taken softly if … you’re a member of the Nomenklatura or their agents (e.g., BLM rioters)
The law will be ruthlessly applied if … if you are a member of the the opposition party or their supporters (in fact or just via demographics).
Well I already received my fundraising email!
“Moments ago, federal judges just ruled that I HAVE NO PRESIDENTIAL IMMUNITY!
Joe Biden has weaponized the entire federal government against US.
THEY WON’T STOP UNTIL THE MAGA MOVEMENT IS ERASED!
THEY WON’T STOP UNTIL THEY HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL!
THEY WON’T STOP UNTIL WE BEND AT THEIR WILL, BUT I KNOW YOU WON’T LET THAT HAPPEN!”
Can you guess how they suggest you not “let that happen”?
I won’t ruin the surprise but it involves a major credit card or Apple Pay and a minimum of $20.24 of your hard earned money. I’m sure our brave huckleberry denizens are leaping to answer his call!
They most certainly are aching to help.
‘Help the poor billionaire pay his legal fees, or maybe stiff his lawyers and withold them for himself.’
I will repeat a comment I left on the Ethics Alarms blog.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2024/02/06/ethics-quote-of-the-month-d-c-circuit-court-of-appeals/#comment-862639
Criminal defense attorneys have a lot more legal and ethical leeway than prosecutors to make creative interpretations of the law, to make novel arguments for unprecedented circumstances. it is up to courts to reject outlandish interpretations.
There are plenty of other reasons that the courts must dismiss these indictments (qualified immunity, rule of lenity, First Amendment, and possibly others) But for reasons I find compelling, courts do not adjudicate questions not before them.
A bit off-topic, but according to this ruling, could Biden be sued for failing to “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed” with regards to our overrun southern border? As the court points out, under Marbury, the judiciary has the power to hear cases “where a specific duty is assigned by law.”
No.
Because (D)
Now, now, be nice.
That IS me being nice.
I thought so.
No, this ruling wouldn’t give any additional latitude to sue President Trump next year for the various laws he isn’t enforcing either.
Not exactly but in essence, probably. Constitutional obligations like the “take care” clause are not criminal statutes, so that isn’t a federal crime itself, but could be a High Crime for impeachment purposes (anything can). But there are most likely federal criminal statutes that could matched up to this conduct (they can fit most anything). When you say “be sued,” if you are talking about something other than criminal prosecution, that’s a different question.
Most likely!
Interesting
1. Sued by whom?
2. Sued based on which facts?
The president retains absolute immunity from civil suits for money damages. A suit seeking an order to enforce the law would most likely be dismissed because enforcement priorities are discretionary. DHS would probably be the nominal defendant.
I see.
United States v. Texas, 599 U.S. 670 (2023),
“In 2021, the Secretary of Homeland Security promulgated new immigration-enforcement guidelines (Guidelines for the Enforcement of Civil Immigration Law) that prioritize the arrest and removal from the United States of noncitizens who are suspected terrorists or dangerous criminals or who have unlawfully entered the country only recently, for example.
The States of Texas and Louisiana claim that the Guidelines contravene two federal statutes…
Held: Texas and Louisiana lack Article III standing to challenge the
Guidelines…this Court has previously ruled that a plaintiff lacks
standing to bring such a suit “when he himself is neither prosecuted nor threatened with prosecution.”
This has to be at least the hundredth time I’ve seen someone claiming Biden is violating or failing to apply some law at the border. And not once have I seen anyone say just what TF law(s) they think are being broken. Anybody care to cite specific statutes?
Just my opinion and I am NOT a lawyer.
IV)Mandatory detention
Any alien subject to the procedures under this clause shall be detained pending a final determination of credible fear of persecution and, if found not to have such a fear, until removed.
8 U.S.C. § 1225 – U.S. Code – Unannotated Title 8. Aliens and Nationality § 1225. Inspection by immigration officers; expedited removal of inadmissible arriving aliens; referral for hearing
The claim is that the President is using his discretion to release aliens from detention before their final determination is made. Of course NO recent President has done this because Congress has not provided the funds for the detention facilities. AND Presidents have used their executive discretion to release people pending their final determination (something that could take years to do).
Where exactly is the specific duty in “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed”? Reminds me of…
“Impeach Biden/Mayorkas!”
“For what?”
“They’re not enforcing the law!”
“What law?”
“Immigration law!”
“What part of immigration law are they not enforcing?”
“… … …”
“I said ‘what-“
“Immigration law! Impeach now!”
Am I crazy or is this whole discussion of discretionary and ministerial acts irrelevant and obiter? To my mind, the whole reason why Trump’s claim of immunity is stupid is because the acts that he’s accused of aren’t official acts at all, neither discretionary nor ministerial.
I agree. I want the courts to leave open for a future case the question of criminal liability for official acts.
Was that question before the court in the instant appeal?
Trump argued that all the acts in the present indictment in D.C. were ‘official acts.’ [or the more nebulous outer perimeter of official acts] The DC Circuit said at this stage of the proceeding, they must assume the allegations in the indictment are true. Further, there was a footnote I believe stating that the President doesn’t have a formal or constitutional role during the Congressional proceedings to count the electoral votes from the States. So they are hinting that the Acts in question are not official acts. There was also a reference to the trial court who mentioned something about ‘Candidate Trump’s acts’ vs Presidential Acts. Since the acts in question were ostensibly performed to make candidate Trump re-elected President Trump I think it fair to say they didn’t buy the ‘official acts’ assumption of Trump’s lawyers.
It would have been nice had they said that. But it’s not a SCOTUS decision, so there is that.
I’m not sure they’re hinting at it so much as saying it:
“Because the President has no official role in the certification of the Electoral College vote, much of the misconduct alleged in the Indictment reasonably can be viewed as that of an office-seeker — including allegedly organizing alternative slates of electors and attempting to pressure the Vice President and Members of the Congress to accept those electors in the certification proceeding. It is thus doubtful that “all five types of conduct alleged in the indictment constitute official acts.” Appellant’s Br. 42. [my empahsis]”
You’re likely to not see an attempted prosecution of official acts. Other than an attempt to go after Biden if he loses I mean. But that will be as sloppy and poorly considered as the impeachment cases and will fall apart after a few months. But outside of that? Will not be a thing.
Yes, I would have liked the line to be drawn there.
If you’re a parent in Iraq or Libya whose child was killed by American bombs, you could take cold comfort knowing that Dubya or Obama could face capital murder charges.
There are plenty of defenses a criminal lawyers fresh out of law school could make if either of them were tried for war crimes.
Absolute immunity for anything done while in office is a bridge too far.
“Former President Trump’s claimed immunity would have
us extend the framework for Presidential civil immunity to
criminal cases and decide for the first time that a former
President is categorically immune from federal criminal
prosecution for any act conceivably within the outer perimeter
of his executive responsibility”
Christ, is this actually what he was arguing? Absolutely bonkers.
If that position prevailed, couldn’t Biden just add Trump’s name to the drone strike list and be done with him?
If that position prevailed, Biden would still be liable to conviction by Congress and then criminal charges if he had Trump assassinated.
Or, if the assassination was not an “act conceivably within the outer perimeter of his executive responsibility” then Biden would be liable to criminal charges without the need for Congress to convict.
If that position does not prevail (as it hasn’t), then if Biden assassinates Trump, he could face criminal charges under the next President without the need for Congress to convict, regardless of whether the act was conceivably within the outer perimeter of his executive responsibility.
US presidents do in fact drone strike and kill people. So far, no criminal charges have been brought against any of them for it as far as I know. Not even any political impeachment charges either.
“If that position prevailed, Biden would still be liable to conviction by Congress and then criminal charges if he had Trump assassinated.”
“Immunity” apparently doesn’t mean what it used to mean…
Yes, if my understanding is correct (and I could be wrong, I haven’t followed other than reading the OP) the legal position advanced by Trump’s legal team allows that presidents are subject to federal criminal prosecution if they are first impeached and convicted by Congress. IIRC that’s pretty explicit in the Constitution itself so I don’t see how they could argue otherwise.
And yes, the word “immunity” here may be legally accurate but colloquially quite misleading.
The argument is immunity for anything done while in office, unless impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate.
In other posts, I explained why I believe these indictments must be dismissed, and the case should not go to trial. And it appears the court left open absolute immunity for specific acts.
But immunity for anything done while in office was the question before the Court, not other questions that would require the Court to dismiss the indictment.
I’m inclined to agree with you.
Their legal filings argued that Presidents would only be subject to criminal prosecution if the impeachment trial resulted in conviction.
Without impeachment – no prosecution.
Without impeachment conviction – no prosecution.
Note that they also argued an impeachment trial after someone left office was unconstitutional. The implications of those various arguments together should concern everyone.
“If that position prevailed, Biden would still be liable to conviction by Congress and then criminal charges if he had Trump assassinated.”
But as long as he made sure he had the support of 34 Senate Democrats before doing it, he would get off scot-free under the position Trump appears to be advancing.
Sure. But under either legal position, all he needs to get off scot-free from federal criminal prosecution is the support of 1 person! The succeeding president.
Ultimately it’s all down to political accountability to the people through one way or another.
But on the other hand could Obama be indicted for his drone strike against an American Citizen.
Or even Biden for his drone strike against an innocent Afghan family?
I am not really in favor of presidential immunity, but I am troubled by the implications of allowing retaliatory prosecutions by subsequent administrations.
Even if you don’t think that’s happening now, surely you can see the possibility of that happening sometime in the next 4 years.
Depends on who wins in 2024.
According to Trump’s own lawyer at oral argument, yes! Trump’s position is that unless Biden were impeached and removed from office for the specific act of assassinating Trump, he would be immune from prosecution forever for that act. So, if Biden simply resigned before he could be impeached…
“But any executive immunity that may have protected him while
he served as President no longer protects him against this
prosecution.”
Where was Obama when he ordered the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen? Just asking regarding venue.
If someone is an enemy combatant I’m not sure it matters if he’s also a citizen. He was killed in his capacity as an enemy combatant.
True.
Of course, the “absolute immunity for anything done while in office” will not be available, so a judge in a hypothetical prosecution would have to make that determination.
Fine, if some crazy prosecutor wants to charge Obama with murder for that decision, let him. It would be a quick proceeding, and pass the popcorn.
Depends where he issued the order. If say he was in Texas on a political visit, the dismissal might not be so quick.
Any immunity he had as president expired, right?
Even in Texas I doubt you could find a judge or jury who would convict Obama for offing a terrorist. I doubt it would even make it to a jury. A judge would likely conclude it was within his authority to protect national security.
“terrorist”
Did a court determine that? The alleged murderer made that determination about a US ctizen. Is that how it works?.
And how about the 16 year old?
“Due process is a bullet in the head.”
Bob from Ohio on suspected terrorists.
But, as I also said, if some crazy prosecutor wants to try indicting Obama for that, let him. I’m sure the results will be hilarioius.
In this case, a drone. Nice to see you’re good with killing American children. What a horrible human being. Ugh!
I’m not. Bob is. Or do you not know what quotation marks are?
To my knowledge no one except right wing extremists has “alleged” that Obama is a murderer, and frankly, it’s because it’s Obama. As you essentially admit below, when a Republican kills a terrorist you’re fine with it.
And in fact, citizens get killed without due process every day. It’s called self defense. And in this case, self defense is what Obama did at the national level rather than the personal level. Call me old fashioned, but when someone beyond the reach of the judicial process is killing Americans, I think there’s a right to stop him. And so would you, again, if Bush had issued the order.
Your partisanship is fairly brazen even for you.
“self defense is what Obama did at the national level rather than the personal level.”
You can launch a missile at a person miles away [not an active threat] in “personal level” self defense? What US jurisdiction says that?
Oh, so enemy combatants can’t be killed unless they’re an active threat right at that very moment? In that case, every general who’s ever served in wartime is a murderer.
“Oh, so enemy combatants can’t be killed unless they’re an active threat right at that very moment? In that case, every general who’s ever served in wartime is a murderer.”
Maybe we could, oh, require a DECLARATION OF WAR before Presidents get to assassinate random people in other countries? Or, yeah, at least they should be an active threat at that moment, not somebody the President just thinks the world would be better off without.
And, I don’t know, maybe they could lift a finger to make sure they kill the right person? Is that too much to ask?
So it’s only an enemy combatant if there’s a formal declaration of war? The 9/11 hijackers weren’t enemy combatants since war had not been declared? A president who found out about the plot after it was too late to do anything else except kill them would be guilty of murder? Are you out of your mind? (Don’t answer that.)
As for killing children, I think the US military (and Obama) make honest, good faith efforts not to do that, but 100% precision is impossible.
“So it’s only an enemy combatant if there’s a formal declaration of war?”
No, if they were actively attacking the US at the time, that would fall under an exception to the need for a declaration of war that was widely understood BEFORE Presidents usurped the power to start wars.
“As for killing children, I think the US military (and Obama) make honest, good faith efforts not to do that, but 100% precision is impossible.”
I think they didn’t go out of their way to kill children, but they expended essentially zero effort to avoid it. I mean, when you say, “Hey, we identified “X”‘s phone, he’s on our kill if possible list. Let’s launch a rocket at the position we detected it, that will kill everybody within 20 feet, despite the fact that we have no idea who is present, and know that he has a family.”
For all they knew he was visiting a daycare at the time. They didn’t lift a finger to be sure.
This is edifying in the context of the support here for Israel’s attack on Gaza and the thousands of dead and maimed children.
For that matter, Bob, if you were on the jury and the order had been issued by George Bush, I doubt you would vote to convict. Tell me I’m wrong.
No, but Obama, maybe!
So what you’re saying is you would violate your oath as a juror?
“He was killed in his capacity as an enemy combatant.”
Where is that in the Constitution? Killing citizens without any process.
Where in the Constitution does it say that enemy combatants have constitutional rights?
American citizens do.
Both Obama and Trump happen to have ordered strikes (not sure if both were drone strikes) in Yemen which killed members of Anwar al-Awlaki’s family. His son, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, a 16-year old US citizen, was killed by Barrack Obama in 2011. His daughter, Nawar al-Awlaki, an 8-year old US citizen, was killed by Donald Trump in 2017.
The son may or may not have been an “enemy combatant”, but the daughter certainly wasn’t.
Killing civilians in the course of conducting a military combat operations is something that happens in war. It’s not murder. Consider the tens of thousands of children killed in the firebombing of Dresden, or the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
And wars are something that, under our Constitution, only Congress gets to declare.
So, yeah, back to being murder.
Did you read Congress’ authorization for use of military force? Assuming Congressional authorization is necessary for such an action, Congress authorized it here. The letters of marque and reprisal power translates to a general power to authorize informal military operations, even secret ones, without a formal declaration of war. Modern covert action is simply the modern equivalent.
Moreover, anybody not blinded by the spectre of a man on a white horse can see the difference between an attack killing members of a foreign organization Congress has deemed an enemy organization and attacking ones personal political enemies.
But it wasn’t attacking members of a foreign organization Congress has deemed an enemy organization. It was attacking anyone near a phone thought to be associated with such, without bothering to see if he was one of them, or who else might be killed. And not even in a war zone.
I also believe ex parte Quirin is good law, but I don’t think that view is universal.
Who determined he was that? Obama or Sec Def. Where are the papers?
Pretty sleazy defense
Where were you when people took to the streets to protest the killing of American citizens by officers of the state?
Which American citizens?
Amadou Diallo?
Pedro Navarro-Oregon?
Kathryn Johnston?
Any of them. You stayed indoors and pledged support to the state.
Ashli Babbitt?
As a citizen, Ashlii Babbitt was an un-American joke.
But as a joke . . . not bad:
Knock. Knock.
Who’s there?
Not Ashlii Babbitt. Not anymore.
Even her, you didn’t care enough.
Bob is being a bad faith troll here. The guy who thinks that the Scottsboro Boys case was wrongly decided doesn’t actually think there is a legal problem with killing an American abroad if that American is associated with Al Qaeda.
What he does think, like Carl Schmitt is that all political and legal issues boil down to the friend-enemy distinction. His friends are axiomatically innocent and therefore should be completely protected from any punitive political process. His enemies are axiomatically criminals and therefore should have the full weight of state power brought against them. There is no need to hear him pretend to defend al-Awlaki or his son (or daughter) because he simply does not care.
I’m trying to get the anti-Trump cheerleaders for these trials to face the possible future effects of trying Trump.
Crazy but true, not even your slippery slope is as stupid as you are. And your slippery slope is as stupid as all get out.
They will not squeal (like the stuck pigs they are) until the shoe is on the other foot. And laced tightly.
Or they won’t at all because some people actually have principles.
Fortunately, we do not have to worry about you, and principles.
You’re right! Because my opinions and principles regarding criminal justice issues are both pretty good and pretty consistent!
Official/governmental immunities, civil and criminal, are generally bad as a matter of principle.
Police and prosecutors overreach a lot and defendants are often treated way too harshly by the system, both pretrial and in their sentences.
But I am going to roll my eyes out and point out the special pleading of people who get their fainting couches out for Trump/Jan 6th defendants. With a few exceptions, these people have either never cared about or actively championed the criminal system that is now turned against them. And particularly in the case of Trump: he’s getting far more procedural protection and leeway than the vast majority of other Americans ever will when faced with prosecution.
So yeah you don’t have to worry about my principles.
Is that what you’re hoping for? Has anyone tried to throw themselves between your dumb threats and Obama yet?
Sure, but you’re doing it by being a bad faith troll making bad faith arguments that you don’t actually believe.
Keep your head in the sand. Once norms are abandoned, the other side gets its swings too.
Clingers had their day. For decades. Now, though, it’s just whining and flashing the occasional middle finger as better Americans until replacement of these culture war casualties occurs.
Carry on, clingers. But only so far as your betters permit . . . and not a step beyond. Thank you for your continuing compliance with the preferences of the culture war’s winners.
The “norm” of certain people being allowed to commit crimes is bad actually and should be abandoned. You mistakenly think I believe in the friend-enemy distinction as much as you do. I don’t. So do it, who cares.
Local police and prosecutors can do far more damage with far less oversight to any person at anytime. Not giving one or two of the most powerful and connected people in the world immunity is extremely low on my concerns about what Republican prosecutors will do.
Prosecuting Biden, Obama, Clinton or Carter pales in comparison to Ken Paxton trying to throw out the votes of other states because he didn’t like the outcome, or trying to force a woman to be at the point of death before she can terminate her unviable pregnancy. So do it, they’ve already done so much worse to people.
Well it’ll probably beat maintaining any pretence of even trying to actually govern.
Also like… please! Charge Obama with murder! That would be amazing in so many ways. What are you waiting for?
There’s this threat, the threat of civil war, the threat of disqualifying Biden and/or Harris, the threat of impeaching Biden and/or Mayorkas… like, go! Start! What’s the hold up? All of those things will backfire enormously… to the extent we even care. (Most of us would like you to please disqualify Biden already.)
None of those things are going to happen even though Mr Ed will be disappointed.
.
Some disaffected, worthless losers will act up and get put in their place by better Americans?
I think we can handle it.
“His friends are axiomatically innocent and therefore should be completely protected from any punitive political process. His enemies are axiomatically criminals and therefore should have the full weight of state power brought against them.” Aka the Garland and Smith Doctrine.
Yep he definitely has that view. That’s why Garland is charging Hunter Biden and Bob Menendez and investigating Cori Bush.
And not just any friend/enemy distinction. A friend of the Leader/enemy of the Leader distinction.
He was serving in his capacity as Commander in Chief on behalf of the security of the people of the United States of America, dummy. But please, entertain us with your stupid legal theories.
If a man can say he is a woman, a past president can say he has absolute immunity.
Yes, and he can keep saying it till the day he dies in prison.
He can say it as much as he likes. He says a lot of stuff.
No one, other than the worthless clingers who constitute his deplorable supporters, will pay much attention, though.
If a president can tell you to inject bleach, he can also tell you he has absolute immunity.
Isn’t this case all about whining about a stolen election?
I mean, it wasn’t as if Trump was charged with perjury or forgery or bribery.
If whining about a stolen election was a crime, wouldn’t Hillary Clinton be prosecuted for it?
Yes, Hillary Clinton would be prosecuted, if Republicans also believed in jailing their political enemies.
“Isn’t this case all about whining about a stolen election?”
Ummm…no. It’s all about whether all ex-presidents have absolute immunity from prosecution for all potential criminal acts, now and and forevermore.
Glad I could clear that up for you. Any other questions you need help with?
The instant appeal was about whether a President has absolute immunity for all acts committed while in office, absent impeachment by the House and conviction by the Senate. This was akin to a facial challenge. Facial challenges face a high bar, and this challenge is no different.
The high bar has not been met.
The underlying case is about “whining about a stolen election”.
https://rumble.com/v4azhqc-system-update-show-222.html
The Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton), Adam Schiff, and Robert Mueller could have been indicted had John Durham relied on “novel applications of criminal laws to unprecedented circumstances”.
Novel in the sense of having no evidence for his off-topic editorialising. Hey, how many times and in how many jurisdictions has Trump tried to sue Hilary Clinton for this very thing?
Glenn Greenwald made his case in his video.
Pity he wasn’t on Trump’s legal team. Or, no, wouldn’t have made a bit of dfference.
> If whining about a stolen election was a crime, wouldn’t Hillary Clinton be prosecuted for it?
No, she has a (D) at the end of her name
All four judges are female. The trial court judge is a woman, and this DC panel opinion was from three women. This is just a female opinion, from a feminized court.
I guess then that Turnip picked the wrong lifetime in which to be a serial rapist.
One nice thing about right-wing internet discourse is that for every ostensibly rational point a conservative makes about why some event is good or bad there is always some maladjusted loser ready to give a take like this.
Which Conspirators are the conservatives advancing rational points and which are the maladjusted losers?
Asking for a friend (named Artie Ray, who was banned by one of the . . . ah, never mind).
FEEEMALES
Even Liquidator Brunt is like: right-wing Hew-Mons need to chill a little with the misogyny.
.
Just as this is just a white, male blog, operated by and for a vanquished political movement’s culture war roadkill.
[moved reply to proper root comment]
The opinion seems correct pretty much across the board to this non-constitutional law expert. The only thing I wonder about is Section III(B)(2) on pages 37-40 of the opinion. If I understand that section correctly, it seems to assert that the immunity claim is especially unfounded here because the alleged conduct “violated” various constitutional provisions, including the president’s duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed and “Article II’s mandate that a President ‘hold his Office during the Term of four Years.’”
This strikes me as an overreach, and an odd one given how clearly correct the decision is otherwise. As a practical matter, any alleged criminal conduct by a sitting president conflicts with the Take Care clause. He’s violating the very laws he’s charged with enforcing. So the Take Care Clause really shouldn’t play into this at all, except to the extent necessary to reject Trump’s completely absurd claim that his actions were really attempts to *implement* his Take Care duty (pgs. 38, 50, fn. 14).
As for the “violation” of the 4-year term of office, that might make sense if Trump’s actions delayed the actual date of transition. But they didn’t even come close. Even if the vote was delayed, one President’s term ended, and another began, completely on schedule.
This section has the effect of muddying the precedential value of the opinion by suggesting there was something unique about the events of January 6 for immunity purposes, and thus that the Trump team’s immunity theory might be viable in some future case with different types of crimes or that don’t involve election disputes. It also will likely contribute to the perception that Trump is subject to legal rules improvised post hoc by his political opponents, when in fact his immunity argument here was a clear loser from the word go.
My understanding is that, at this point, the President’s “take care” duty is a dead letter.
I mean, the blog by that name that started up in March of 2017 shut down a few days after Biden took office, obviously he doesn’t have any such duty…
I wonder why a blog that describes itself as “Insightful, accessible, and timely legal analysis of the Trump Administration” would shut down when there is no Trump Administration. It is an unsolvable conundrum.
I wonder why people who claimed it wasn’t anything partisan, they were just concerned about the President’s constitutional duty to take care that the law was faithfully executed, would lose all interest the moment a fellow Democrat took office?
Could it be they were lying about it not being partisan lawfare? I think so.
Anyway, the point is the “take care” duty, is a dead letter, “discretion” swallowed it whole. Bit disingenuous to try to revive it for Trump, and ONLY Trump.
At least they made short work of the glaringly stupid double jeopardy claim. I wonder how much Trump paid to have his attorneys come up with that gem. And can I also get paid to make frivolous arguments that have no shot at winning? Like the negative implication that he can only be tried criminally if impeached and convicted but not if impeached and acquitted? Muh absolute immunity has this YUGE gaping flaw! Please ignore it. I need to hit the page limit for my brief and have nothing worthwhile to say.
“We’ll see what the Supreme Court does with this.” But before that, we will see what various criminal courts do with the charges of Aiding and Abetting Genocide now pending against Joe Biden in both US and international courts. It’s not a pretty picture, as any former President can now be criminally charged for acts committed while in office… and murder has no statute of limitations. As another example, Barack Obama now faces criminal charges for the murder of a US citizen by drone strike.
Let the games begin!
As I’m not the first to note, the Constitution gives a limited protection from arrest to members of Congress.
It says nothing about a Presidential privilege against arrest, much less a privilege against prosecution.
For a president to be arrested during their tenure, they would have to be arresting themselves, in effect. At least at the federal level. Otherwise it’s a coup/rebellion. So it makes sense that a privilege against arrest would appear for Congress and not the president.
Huh? No, actually not so.
Actually, when Ulysses Grant was arrested for speeding in DC, in 1872 nobody thought a coup was going on. In fact, the President commended the officer for doing his duty.
Because Presidents weren’t kings back then.
Fair. What I’m saying is that if a sitting president is arrested by federal authorities, that is an exercise of the federal executive power which is presently vested in that president.
No one can claim Trump keeps all of the best lawyers of Trump Litigation: Elite Strike Force to himself — read the section entitled
E. The Court Should Deny Defendants’ Requests for “Production of CCTV Footage.”
that begins at file page 57 (document page 54) of thisGOVERNMENT’S RESPONSE IN OPPOSITION TO
DEFENDANTS’ MOTION TO COMPEL DISCOVERY, which appears to be legitimate.
I agree with the decision, with only a few minor quibbles.
In its discussion of policy considerations regarding immunity, the DC circuit dismissed concerns that lack of immunity could lead to successors constantly prosecuting former presidents as negligible on grounds it has never occurred in our history and therefore can’t happen. This was a big mistake. Past results are no guarantee of future performance. I think Trump’s presidency, the possibility of his return to the presidency, his repeated statements that his political opponents are criminals and have committed various crimes, and his explicit statements that he plans to appoint prosecutors willing to vigorously prosecute his political opponents if he wins, make the possibility of this country seeing waves of politically motivated prosecutions far from negligible. I think the DC Circuit should have taken this possibility very seriously, but should have nonetheless concluded that the risks from having presidents who are completely immune from prosecution are greater.
Finally, citizens have no inherent or constitutional or federal right to democratically elect a president. They are involved at all solely as an act of grace by state legislatures who could just as easily make the decisions themselves, assign it to a commission, etc. I would omit language referring to the existence of any such right except as a state-law statutory right.
But these are minor quibbles.
I doubt that anyone really thinks this appeal was in any way real or was surprised by the decision. The real purpose was to delay the trial and in that sense it succeeded. The question is with this opinion will the Supreme Court feel a need to weigh in on the matter. The Supreme Court should consider the importance of this matter versus the right of the people to have a trail decision before the November election. I hope they choose the later because I think the opinion of the Supreme Court is less important than the decision of a jury.
No, this was a real appeal. A criminal defense attorney would be obligated to raise these sorts of arguments. They weren’t frivolous. Moreover, criminal defendants often want to find reasons to delay their trials, so that also isn’t unusual.
The fact that the Supreme Court didn’t weigh in earlier is some evidence it won’t do so now, but not conclusive evidence. It might think it best to wait for a single final appeal of the whole thing if Trump is convicted rather than do multiple interlocutory appeals.
I do not suggesting the appeal was not real, just that its purpose was more to delay than to win. I do think Trump has a right of appeal but I would rather see that after the trial and not as you have noted as interlocutory appeals. While the idea of a conviction is upper most in Trumps mind, I don’t think he or his lawyers want a trial at all because the evidence will be pretty damming. Even a win could cost him.
He is not an officer above the United States, after all.
This line caught my attention:
“It would be a striking paradox if the President, who alone is vested with the constitutional duty to “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed”, were the sole officer capable of defying those laws with impunity.”
They are clling the president an officer
Former Second Assistant Secretary of State Alvey A. Adee noted…
“Treason is never successful. What’s the reason? When it succeeds, it is no longer treason.”
And then he was appointed President of Harvard.
Yawn…here we go…he might have immunity but not ‘blanket’ ,not ‘criminal’…let’s have a cage match about the meaning of words.Whatever he did ,bend the words…Ooh but Biden would be up for impeachment but he isn’t physically and mentally able according to legal opinion.
Immunity from prosecution has not only been argued, it has been implemented in parts of South America. At least in the recent past in one country, and possibly still, the president could not be criminally charged unless the legislature voted to remove his immunity. Having won in the legislature Trump wants that to be the law for him.
The purpose of Latin American official immunity is to protect against retaliation by the next administration. Historically we haven’t been afraid of that. Now 40% of the country thinks federal prosecutors are out to get political opponents. Which 40% depends on who won the last election.
https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/should-latin-america-abolish-immunity-for-elected-officials/
“Historically we haven’t been afraid of that. ”
History has now ended.
Yes. Electing Trump is the only thing that can save our republic from South American politics.
The most entertaining moments at the Volokh Conspiracy customarily involve at least three consecutive comments from clingers. It’s like clicking the ruby red heels three times to bring the magic.
I know how to not have South American politics: elect the machismo obsessed strong-man who rejects the legitimacy of election outcomes! Lord almighty…