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The Objection That Enforcing Section Three Would Be Too "Dangerous"
[Note: This is the third in a series of essays responding to objections that have been made to enforcing Section Three of the Constitution. The first two essays can be found here and here.]
Of all the objections that have been offered to our interpretation of Section Three, one stands out as far and away the most craven and insidious. It is the argument that, regardless of what the Constitution says and how it is correctly understood, we should not enforce Section Three's exclusion of insurrectionists from future office because doing so might provoke substantial political resistance and even violence by their supporters. To comply with the Constitution in this respect, therefore (it is said), is simply too dangerous. In short, it might tend to produce further, greater acts of insurrectionary violence or rebellion directed against our constitutional order. We should decline to enforce the Constitution's exclusion of insurrectionists from office because that might only make matters worse. Or as Professor Daniel Epps put it in jest: "The Supreme Court shouldn't rule that Trump is ineligible for the presidency for engaging in insurrection, because if they do Trump will definitely stage an insurrection."
Accordingly, it is said, we should not enforce Section Three in accordance with the original meaning of its terms, fairly understood. If the faithful, straightforward interpretation and application of Section Three would risk these consequences, we should not interpret and apply the Constitution faithfully. We should seek ways to avoid carrying out the Constitution's rules on this matter. We should compromise constitutional principle to accommodate the believed practical imperatives of the current political situation. We should appease those who would threaten or engage in political violence, rather than enforce the language of the Constitution.
To state this position plainly, in unvarnished terms, is, we submit, to expose its utter lack of integrity and legal propriety. This is not a legal argument about Section Three, of course. It is not an argument about the meaning of the Constitution's text, structure, history, logic, design, or purposes; nor is it an argument from constitutional precedent or practice. It is, rather an argument from expediency, or cowardice, that a particular provision of the Constitution should be disregarded or dispensed with, out of fear of its consequences or in order to appease those who would hold the Constitution hostage to threats of resistance. It should go without saying that such an argument ought to play no role whatever in legal interpretation of the Constitution, by those who have sworn to uphold it.
We did not take this objection very seriously in our forthcoming article, The Sweep and Force of Section Three, for two reasons. First, we simply did not expect it to be a serious argument. We did not expect that many people would seriously deny that the Constitution should be enforced in accordance with the fair understanding of its terms, taken in their original sense and context, not because of disagreement with such an interpretive approach, but instead out of fear of the consequences of complying with the Constitution.
Second, our article was devoted to legal analysis -- an effort to ascertain the original, objective public meaning of a provision of the Constitution, as part of our must fundamental law. We were not concerned with frankly political evaluations of the hypothesized "danger" of applying the Constitution faithfully. We simply sought to arrive at a correct understanding of Section Three as a matter of constitutional interpretation. Had we anticipated the reaction, it still would have been beyond the scope of our project.
Nonetheless, the this-would-be-too-dangerous argument has been among the most persistent and prominent objections made to the thesis of our article. It has been propounded, in various forms, by a conservative writer for The New York Times, by the editorial board of a prominent, conservative-leaning national newspaper, by a celebrated and venerable nationally-syndicated conservative columnist, and by others. The common message is that we should not apply Section Three's original meaning, if doing so would disqualify Donald Trump from eligibility for the Presidency, because it would be "dangerous" to do so. It would (it has been said) "embitter" Trump supporters, who would react with "rage" to a "rigged" system and produce widespread "chaos."
And so, we think the objection needs to be confronted directly:
First, there is a real concern that such rhetoric could become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Some of the public formulations of this objection border on suggesting that extreme reactions might in some sense be justified, or at least understandable, responses to what the writer sees as a great legal provocation. Other writers merely raise a concern that taking Section Three seriously might produce an uncomfortable disruption of usual political processes. Instead of raising and possibly stoking fears of violence, it would be far better, we submit, for these opinion writers to champion the Constitution and the rule of law – to urge their readers to take the Constitution seriously in all of its operative provisions, including Section Three, and to encourage a civic ethos that embraces the controlling authority of the U.S. Constitution as "supreme Law of the Land."
Second, beyond the problem that the dangerousness objection, if repeatedly pressed, might tend to produce its own feared consequences, there is the more basic problem of principle: It is simply wrong to interpret and apply the Constitution incorrectly out of low-political or social-policy or concern-for-social-consequences-and-disruption motives. We've seen this movie before, several times. The Supreme Court's unanimous landmark decision in Brown v. Board of Education in 1954 embraced the Fourteenth Amendment's fundamental guarantee of equality to repudiate racial segregation in public education, and to disapprove of the pernicious doctrine of "separate but equal," notwithstanding that large segments of American society would – and did –resist its holding. In Brown II, the following year, the Court emphasized that, in fashioning judicial remedies to implement the Fourteenth Amendment's mandates, "it should go without saying that the vitality of these constitutional principles cannot be allowed to yield simply because of disagreement with them." Disagreement (and "massive resistance") there indeed was. But the Supreme Court refused to back down from constitutional principle and, in Cooper v. Aaron in 1958 unanimously reaffirmed the principles of Brown even in the face of public resistance and violence.
Should the Court in Brown have ruled differently – ruled more narrowly, compromised on constitutional principle, avoided deciding the case entirely, or even reaffirmed Plessy (and segregation) on the basis of longstanding precedent and practice – and done so because of concern about how a decision on constitutional principle would be received? Should the Court in Brown deliberately have interpreted the Constitution in a way it thought wrong, on proper interpretive principles, out of fear that committed, hard-core segregationists would be up in arms over a decision embracing the right constitutional answer? The very idea is, by now, almost unthinkable. Such a course would have been shockingly unprincipled – outrageous and reprehensible – then, and now.
And of course we have seen that movie before with a different ending. In the first decade or so after the Fourteenth Amendment was enacted, many republicans in political office were willing to enforce its terms, even when this required aggressive enforcement against massive, even violent, resistance. This was Reconstruction. But by 1876 or so, the political winds had shifted and the will to enforce the Constitution had weakened. People in positions of power and privilege now thought it "dangerous" to insist on enforcing the Constitution too much. And so they stopped insisting, and succumbed to the rise of Jim Crow. As John Harrison has summarized it, "what happened in the 1870s is that the white southerners and the national republicans stared each other in the eye and more or less . . . the national republicans blinked." Was that really the historically preferable policy?
As with Brown, Reconstruction, and interpretation of Section One of the Fourteenth Amendment, so too with Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment: It should go without saying that the vitality of correct constitutional principles should not be allowed to yield simply because of disagreement, resistance, threats, or even violence.
Faithful constitutional interpretation is of course a special responsibility of judges. As constitutional scholar and political scientist Matthew Franck recently put it, "where the requirements of the Constitution and the rule of law are concerned . . . questions like 'what will voters do if we do X?' are the wrong ones to ask. Certainly such matters cannot matter to judges. … 'What bad things will other people do if I do the right thing?' is a question any judge should be ashamed even to ask himself."
Franck commended the justices for exercising great integrity in putting politics and popularity aside when they overruled Roe v. Wade two years ago in their headline decision in Dobbs v, Jackson Women's Health Organization. "To their credit," the majority focused on reaching what it thought was the constitutionally correct legal answer in the case, and not at all on public reaction. Indeed, the Court in its Dobbs opinion itself emphasized the entire irrelevance to its legal analysis of such things, stating that "we cannot allow our decisions to be affected by any extraneous influences such as concern about the public's reaction to our work." The courts are expected to exercise similar integrity in every hard case.
But faithful constitutional interpretation is not limited to judges alone. It is the duty and responsibility of all officials who swear an oath to support the Constitution. And while ordinary citizens do not typically swear an oath to support the Constitution, all Americans who subscribe to and admire the U.S. Constitution as "supreme Law of the Land" should put that fundamental law ahead of their policy preferences, ahead of their politics, and above their fears about real or imagined dangers. No one should acquiesce in the notion that the Constitution should be subordinated to political "reality" or held hostage to blackmail threats of political violence or unrest.
Indeed, it would be truly dangerous not to enforce this constitutional provision. Section Three protects our constitutional republic against a grave threat from within: men and women who, once having sworn an oath of office to support the Constitution, subsequently demonstrate their infidelity to our constitutional republic by engaging in acts of insurrection or rebellion should not be entrusted with power a second time (unless and until two thirds of Congress makes a political judgment to excuse or forgive). Not to enforce this provision of the Constitution is to place lawful constitutional government at grave risk. And not to enforce this provision of the Constitution because enforcing it will be difficult, disruptive or dangerous – because of the fear of future insurrection – is arguably the most dangerous course of all.
* * *
We end with a relatively small point about a rather different, more minor, type of dangerousness argument: the argument from misuse. That objection has it that Section Three, if interpreted too broadly, could be misused or abused by political partisans who apply it, as a tool to advance partisan political agendas. In some ways, we find this argument weak and generic. Many governmental powers, some of which may involve interpretation and application of the Constitution (or other law), are vested in many different types of elected officials. Many types of government powers could be abused, or misdirected for partisan ends. This does not in any way refute the existence of such authority. As we noted in our original article, the potential abuse of a constitutional power or right is not an argument against its existence. It is an argument against its abuse or misuse – an argument for checks and balances, judicial review among them. And indeed, in the case of Section Three specifically, we note that there have been extensive judicial proceedings about the application of that provision to former president Donald Trump. Indeed, in Trump v. Anderson, the Colorado Supreme Court case now pending on writ of certiorari before the U.S. Supreme Court, there was a full, five-day trial of the facts that formed the basis for application of Section Three.
The possibility of cases pushing Section Three too far is always present. But that is not an argument for not enforcing Section Three at all. It is an argument for careful and faithful interpretation of Section Three's terms, and for careful application of its rules to the actual facts of a given situation. As we wrote in our article and will return to a future post, the facts matter. If the facts, as found by a trier of fact in a court of law, warrant the legal conclusion that an individual is disqualified from office under the terms of Section Three, that conclusion should be given legal effect. The fact that other situations, involving different facts and different individual conduct, might not warrant the same ultimate conclusion, is unsurprising and untroubling.
The fact that different factual and legal situations may yield different legal conclusions in different cases is an ordinary feature of the rule of law. It is not a persuasive argument for failing to give Section Three its proper, original meaning and applying it as part of our nation's fundamental law. It is a reason to try to define Section Three's terms objectively as a matter of the original meaning of the Constitution, without being pushed or pulled by today's politics, so that they can be consistently understood and applied over time. That is what we have tried to do in The Sweep and Force of Section Three.
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"...greater acts of insurrectionary violence...".
If you are referring to January 6 there is no basis for your claim.
Is "insurrectionary" even a word?
"Insurrectionary" may not be ideal but It's better than "Insurrectal".
With so many people talking out of their ass on this subject, "Insurrectal" may be a better choice.
Insurrectal..."You're making an insurrectal argument." That is hilarious. Insurrectal is a close second to 'Insurrectionizer' (coined by Lee Moore). Well done, to you and Voize.
Refraining from applying Section 3 would only be possible if there were an insurrection; if there were not an insurrection or rebellion then that would be the right reason not to apply it.
For January 6th, the obvious basis would be the Colorado Supreme Court decision.
"Insurrectionary" is a word, both an adjective and a noun.
Like I said: talking out of their ass.
Nothing happened in Colorado and their opinion of what happened on Jan. 6 in DC is just opinion.
And yet the Supreme Court is considering the Colorado decision, and that decision is more than mere opinion until the Supreme Court decides otherwise.
"That objection has it that Section Three, if interpreted too broadly, could be misused or abused by political partisans who apply it, as a tool to advance partisan political agendas."
You're misstating the objection. It's not that it could be interpreted too broadly. It's that you are ALREADY interpreting it too broadly, because political partisans who wanted to apply it as a tool to advance partisan political agendas wouldn't have to interpret it any more broadly than you are.
Your dislike of Trump has blinded you to how low you had to set the bar to call him an insurrectionist, and how many other politicians would clear that same bar without trouble, if evaluated by people didn't like THEM.
And your infatuation with Trump blinds you to the fact that we don’t care. If you can make cases for other politicians being insurrectionists, have at it! We’re not going to defend insurrection the way you’ve cravenly decided to do in service to your Christ figure.
I get it: You don't care, Baude doesn't care. In fact, he came right out and said it above:
"It should go without saying that the vitality of correct constitutional principles should not be allowed to yield simply because of disagreement, resistance, threats, or even violence."
Taking out Trump is so important to him that he doesn't care if he sets the country on fire in doing it.
What are some other constitutional provisions that you’d be comfortable ignoring if they might lead to bad consequences?
The 14th Amendment's "Life" clause as an absolute and total ban on abortion, including tubular pregnancies which will kill the mother.
It's the same 14th Amendment, and that's where you folks are going here, taking the absolute most uber-extreme position because it benefits your cause.
So I demand no abortion before the fetus has the right to personally plead the fetus' case before a judge. No less unreasonable...
With the possible exception of you, people don’t argue that the fourteenth amendment doesn’t ban abortions because they think it does but fear the consequences: they refrain because they don’t think that’s what the fourteenth amendment actually means.
As I say below, nothing in their take on Section 3 prohibits according Trump more due process than a civil procedure. Nothing in it prohibited the DOJ charging him with insurrection, letting him have a full criminal trial with all those procedural protections.
But they can't be bothered to do things in a way that might convince a few more people of the justice of their cause. They have to do it the easy way, even if it leaves tens of millions of people thinking he was railroaded.
Trump's supposed insurrection was so horrific that it's worth setting the country on fire, but it wasn't enough to justify CHARGING him with insurrection?
There's just this utter mismatch going on between ends and means, between means and disdain for consequences.
The self-executing part would seem to render your DoJ plan not viable.
But they can’t be bothered to do things in a way that might convince a few more people of the justice of their cause.
'You had better bend over backwards such that the crazy people are mollified. Because that always works.'
This is called appeasement.
You're talking about terrorism like it's part of the political calculous.
No, Sarcastr0, the 'self-executing' bushwah doesn't prevent them from charging Trump with insurrection, they could have done it any time after Biden took office.
You might argue that it being self-executing would mean that you could still disqualify somebody despite a criminal acquittal, I suppose. If you wanted to be extra incendiary.
Is that the problem? You don't think you'll get a conviction, and aren't willing to back off if it's an acquittal?
They had their trial. Twice. It was called impeachment. They're still pissed at the result.
But it does. Their argument is that officials are required to apply Section 3 even in the absence of a criminal conviction. If they’re right, then those officials do not, in fact, have the option of ignoring it and insisting on a prosecution first.
But they’ve had 3 years now in which they could have prosecuted him and didn’t. And that’s what I’m saying: Nothing about Section 3 being “self-executed” stopped them from charging him with criminal insurrection. Nothing does today.
Except the likelihood of acquittal, and how much harder politically that makes to try this Section 3 tactic against him anyway.
Not insisting on prosecuting first, just going ahead and prosecuting.
You are talking about the wrong they.
You mean the Federal government; Noscitur is talking about state officials.
I mentioned this to him yesterday. He doesn’t get it. To him the Democratic left is just one monolithic hive-mind of evil.
And that includes non-Democrat non-leftists like Cheney. Basically, anyone who's not sucking Trump off is evil, in Brett's mind.
I ignored it because it's a stupid point.
When I say "they", I'm talking about the general group of people who think Trump an insurrectionist.
That doesn't mean hive mind. But it does raise the question, why nobody in a position to actually charge ANYBODY with insurrection actually did so.
That really clashes with the claim that there was obviously an insurrection.
And we've answered that question over and over again as well. "They" had other, better charges to bring.
The Colorado Supreme Court does not control the prosecutorial decisions of the DOJ. Nor are they at liberty to ignore the requirements of state law based on such decisions.
This is the nature of federalism. The DOJ's prosecutorial decisions have no binding effect on the interpretation of state law.
It's not ignoring the provision. It's interpreting the provision in a new and unusual way, one that hasn't been done in the last 100 years.
It wouldn't just be setting the country on fire, Brett...
And these idiots aren't bright enough to realize that...
Just get on with it then!
We don't want to have to...
Some of us still love our country....
Ed,
You are not going to do anything
Personally, no -- and I've been saying that for some time...
What I am trying to beat into that hollow sphere of your skull is that there are OTHERS who will...
Terrorists.
Threatening terrorism is not what someone who loves their country engages in.
Obviously we're not going to start ignoring the constitution as part of negotiations with domestic terrorists like you.
WARNING ABOUT IT actually *is*.....
Yeats put it best -- the middle shall not hold.
So we have a violent radical left and you somehow think that won;t EVENTUALLY beget a violent radical right?!?
There is no violent radical left threatening to overthrow the United States if they don't get their way.
One of these days, if only by random chance, Dr. Ed will actually get the quote right.
But it is not this day.
Once more, you semi-literate halfwit, that's not what Yeats said.
Ed and Brett,
The country will not get set ablaze.
Sure, Trump will scream like a mad-man and maybe get carted off to the psych ward where he might feel more at home than in prison.
Sure, some of his wingnuts will get themselves arrested.
And finally the RNC will get a bit of sense and see that a sane person less than 70 gets nominated for President.
Don, Trump is the face of the modern Republican party much as FDR, circa 1936, had become the face of the Democratic party.
That's not going to change, and Trump is WAY more moderate than some of the people who could replace him. Never forget that there is a dark side to populism, or that FDR was genuinely afraid of what Huey Long could/would do as President...
Trump is moderate. Also his supporters will do a terrorism if you don't please him.
You're so bloodthirsty with your promises of violence, you have ceased to make sense even within the same comment.
"Taking out Trump is so important to him that he doesn’t care if he sets the country on fire in doing it."
I don't think that's a fair summary. I disagree with taking Trump off the ballot, as much as I dislike him, because I believe in a lot of deference to letting the voters decide, and the comparisons to ex-Confederates are pretty sketchy.
But for an non-ambiguous case - perhaps a 20 year old, or someone who isn't a citizen - is winning primaries - then I agree you don't elect the 20 year old or foreign citizen no matter how upset the electorate is. It doesn't make sense to have a constitution and then ignore it.
If Baude believes it is correct to lump Trump with the Confederates (and I think he does), then he should oppose letting him run.
I think you can't analogize between age or citizenship status, and insurrection. Unavoidably, the latter isn't a morally neutral status, it's a crime. Claiming somebody is an insurrectionist isn't merely a claim about some objective physical detail, it's an accusation.
That renders it incommensurate with age and birth status. It has an unavoidable moral dimension they lack, it just can't be treated the same.
Well, I don't see that in the text. Brett's guesses about constitutional meaning are just that, Brett's guesses.
It has an unavoidable moral dimension...
Yes! We of course all already knew this, but it’s good to have it voluntarily revealed so plainly.
The fundamental problem here is the same one driving MAGA’s culture war generally.
A certain segment of the population is distraught about becoming culturally unpopular.
Brett and his ilk are scared to death of being morally judged by mainstream America. It would place them solidly outside the mainstream for the first time in their lives. Someone like Brett can’t psychologically handle being a marginalized American.
MAGA is just a desperate attempt by a sad set of Americans to cling to relevance in a country that has moved on.
"but it’s good to have it voluntarily revealed so plainly."
Like it's some sort of admission against interest.
"Someone like Brett can’t psychologically handle being a marginalized American."
No, I'm just simultaneously bemused and annoyed by the enormous presumption on your part, thinking that you're in a POSITION to marginalize about half the country. Like, who appointed you to that role?
You're voting for the guy, again, who tried to disenfranchise MORE than half the country, remember?
Look, you can't "marginalize" half the country. I don't mean morally, it's just contrary to the very meaning of "marginalize". It's impossible, numerically.
Then what's the Great Replacement Theory, eh?
You're marginalizing yourself. You don't need me. I wish it weren't true.
. . . and the comparisons to ex-Confederates are pretty sketchy.
I’d say the comparisons are not quite a match for post-Fort Sumter Confederates, but already running notably ahead of March, 1861 Confederates.
Taking out Trump is so important to him that he doesn’t care if he sets the country on fire in doing it.
You are meeting a legal and factual argument with 'oh yeah? Well what about deluded people burning down the country if you don't kowtow to them?'
This argument is wrong.
1) Practically - if you kowtow to people who are deluded, you've already given up your country. Better to stick to the law and let the violent crazies do their worst, rather than become the United States of Violent and Crazy.
2) Factually - I've heard these threats before, when Obama won despite birther bullshit, when he won again, and when the ACA passed.
The right is too comfortable to actually do much violence; Jan 06 was the high water mark, and after that everything seems to be being disavowed as a false flag. Best you'll get is some scattered unhinged killings, probably by car.
3) Morally - because anyone who has been reading you lately knows you agree with the deluded people, and think burning the country down is an appropriate reaction should the Supreme Court find that 14As3 is being invoked legitimately.
You're endorsing terrorism, Brett.
Note that I say all of this not because I want Trump off the ballot. It's just that your post makes a very, very, bad argument.
"Best you’ll get is some scattered unhinged killings, probably by car."
Don't spit in the sky; it flies back into your face.
That response (spit in the sky) reminds me of an old Jim Croce song, "You Don't Mess Around With Jim".
The Colorado Supreme Court does not control the prosecutorial decisions of the DOJ. Nor are they at liberty to ignore the requirements of state law based on such decisions.
This is the nature of federalism and separation of powers. The DOJ's prosecutorial decisions have no binding effect on the interpretation of state law.
The only people threatening to 'set the country on fire' are you and your fellow dipshits threatening violence if you don't get your way.
I for one, am tired of your empty threats. Law enforcement can deal with you people just fine should any of you demonstrate that you're stupid enough to try something.
His is an accurate statement. Over seven years we have seen an unending stream of hyperbole to direct the investigative power of government against a political opponent because they were a political opponent.
This is just the latest such. It is far more dangerous to allow this to be rolled into the asisine attack vectors already deployed again and again and again the past seven years, such repeats giving lie to the claims this is just disinerested concern for rule of law, and not “weaponization” of it against opponents.
“Weaponization” is, of course, the modern term for an ancient concept the Founding Fathers were steeped in, and designed failsafes into the Constitution to protect against. No general warrants, warrants at all, not seizing property without compensation, not expropriating the property of recalcitrant noblemen.
Have a it? You fool! You’ve been having at it for seven years!
And, as an aside, did you just challenge the opposition to use your tricks against you? This already is the tat in a tit for tat! And I recall an opinion piece of Bush winning where someone sat back aghast, “Oh no! What if they start doing to us what we’ve been doing to them?!?!!”
You’re a double fool. A twin fool! I don’t want that, and you don’t either. If you “don’t care”, then double twin fool get the holy hell away from the Constitution.
Yes, yes, you believe a bunch of conspiracy theories that mean we’re all evil. I’m well aware.
There’s nothing I can do to convince you that’s not true.
So from your perspective, you have two options: learn to live with the evil Democrats by working within the constitutional system to keep us at bay as best you can…
Or, conclude that America is irredeemable and start a revolution.
The choice is yours. It doesn’t really matter what happens with Trump. Either you can tolerate sharing America with Democrats or you can’t. Figure it out.
'Over seven years we have seen an unending stream of hyperbole to direct the investigative power of government against a political opponent because they were a political opponent.'
No, for seven years we've seen an unending stream of demands that Trump be untouchable and above the law because he's Trump.
How long before we see "insurrection" defined as casting a vote against a Democratic party candidate for office?
Darth,
Answer: Another 712 years. So, well into the 2700 century.
(And, to anticipate your next question: When will "insurrection" be defined as merely registering as a Republican? Answer: Another 3218 years.)
Thus endeth today's chapter of "Obvious answers to stupid questions"
You're welcome, America.
Another issue is what I'd like to call the "elephant with a fly swatter" problem, by analogy to the "elephant in a mouse hole" principle.
You're demanding to do something big with something small. You want to upend a Presidential race, deny a major party its choice of candidate, on a basis half the country thinks is BS, which is a really BIG thing.
But you want to do it by a civil procedure by a preponderance of the evidence, a SMALL tool.
Trump's foes HAVE an elephant gun, a tool proportionate to the job: The federal insurrection statute. Why not use it?
The only conclusion anyone who doesn't despise Trump can reach, is that it's because you don't think you could convict him.
'The only conclusion anyone who doesn’t despise Trump can reach, is that it’s because you don’t think you could convict him.'
Which is a weird argument coming from the 'poor little Trump is being unfairluy prosecuted' set. Clearly all the other prosecutions are well-founded, then.
How exactly could anyone involved in the current litigation have arranged for Trump to be criminally prosecuted?
How could they have stopped it, is the actual question I'm posing.
They couldn't. So, why no prosecution?
""The Supreme Court shouldn't rule that Trump is ineligible for the presidency for engaging in insurrection, because if they do Trump will definitely stage an insurrection."
This is not only an admission that Trump did NOT engage in an insurrection, but a related admission of what would happen if he ever did.
Even if he remained within the limits of Brandenberg, it would make the worst of the BLM riots look like a Sunday School picnic if he ever did actually insurrect.
Ed,
There is not going to be an insurrection regardless of what SCOTUS rules.
And you just admitted that there never was one, either...
Don Nico says that, even if the person highly likely to win the presidential nomination of one of the two major parties is removed from the ballot (on what most people in that party consider BS grounds), the people will just ... accept it.
I must say, Don Nico seems to have a rather low opinion of Americans.
I hope he is wrong.
I wonder: what other partisan impositions does Don Nico think the people will "just accept"? Government censorship? Gun confiscations? Property confiscations? Arbitrary imprisonment? Full disenfranchisement? A declaration that, from now on, you and your descendants shall officially be second-class citizens?
Here's what the Claremont Institute is saying -- and they are level-headed and mainstream:
"This is not the first, nor will it be the last, attempt by the Left to undermine democracy. When the will of the people cuts against ruling class interests (Donald Trump is the current frontrunner in the GOP), everything from mob violence to stamping out free speech is on the table. In this case, naked and aggressive lawfare is their weapon of the moment. "
Yea, I think kicking Trump off the ballot would get ugly...
Okay, I’ll bite.
How does this serve as such an admission?
If Trump "will definitely do it" means that whatever he did in the past wasn't "it."
Of all the objections that have been offered to our interpretation of Section Three, one stands out as far and away the most craven and insidious.
Let's be clear here. It's craven and insidious that I worry about my personal safety? That I worry about the potential destruction of the American economy because of widespread rioting and disruptive protest? That I worry about the imposition of martial law? That I worry about a permanent rupture in our social fabric? That I worry about the destruction of America as we know it?
I have a very low opinion of this entire project to disenfranchise 70-80 million voters, but this is just disgusting. This is beneath academics. If you want to argue that none of this will happen because Donald Trump's supporters will of course accept the brilliant and unarguable constitutional interpretation of Baude and Paulsen, argue that.
Conversely, if you want to argue that risking the destruction of America is totally worth it because there would be absolutely horrifying things that would happen if we gave an obscure provision of the Constitution that nobody ever talked about before the last 2 years a narrow construction, argue that.
But don't call me craven and insidious. When academics are reduced to name calling, it's time to back off.
It is simply wrong to interpret and apply the Constitution incorrectly out of low-political or social-policy or concern-for-social-consequences-and-disruption motives.
Here's the substantive criticism. This is, AT BEST, an extremely contested interpretation. As law professors, Baude and Paulsen know that there are literally large schools of legal thought which existed prior to the current controversies and which think this statement is unmitigated BS.
If they want to actually establish the truth of this statement, they probably need to deal with the absolute mountain of scholarship that says these are proper considerations of Constitutional law. They can't just throw in a sentence in a blog post and just assume that we all just accept this.
The courts literally ALL THE TIME consider social policy and consequentialist arguments when interpreting constitutional provisions. All the time. This is the standard mechanism of constitutional interpretation. Indeed, it is even standard among many who call themselves originalists. (Remember Scalia's "I'm a faint hearted originalist"? This is the exact point he was making.)
You don't get to just slip through an incredibly contestable point that probably the vast majority of constitutional scholars and judges (let alone political scientists, philosophers, or other thinkers) reject, like it is nothing and this is just some unarguable thing we all agree with.
This project is pernicious.
As for the rest of the piece, I am just struck by the delusions of grandeur here. Comparing themselves to Brown! Imagine that. Brown concerned whether Black kids could get an equal education. The current issue concerns whether an obscure constitutional provision could be used to disenfranchise 70-80 million voters. Imagine someone arguing for mass disenfranchisement cloaking themselves in Brown! If there's one thing the people who litigated Brown believed in, it was disenfranchising half the voters in America.
No wait, they didn't.
As for the rest, it all is just an exercise in question begging. As I said yesterday there's numerous interpretations of this provision where Donald Trump stays on the ballot. So you can't say "this must be enforced" as if it is like enforcing the limit on 33 year olds getting elected President. There's no agreement on what enforcement looks like! A lot of people think that proper enforcement of Section 3 does not require disenfranchising all the Trump voters and taking his name of the ballot!
You can't just skip over that and make the rest of your argument as if you are Scalia enforcing the plain meaning of the Constitution. There's no plain meaning here! People disagree vehemently over what this means. And given that vehement disagreement, we get to take it into account when deciding whether to invoke something that involves such a drastic remedy! This is just like the hundreds of clear statement rules imposed by SCOTUS in all sorts of areas. If you are going to disqualify a major party candidate and take the vote away from 70-80 million people, you better be damned sure that this is the only option the law permits. It isn't.
So these guys don't get to say "oh it's so dangerous if we allow insurrectionists on the ballot". PEOPLE DON'T AGREE ON WHETHER HE IS AN INSURRECTIONIST. THEY DON'T AGREE WHETHER THIS PROVISION EVEN APPLIES TO HIM AND WHETHER HE FITS UNDER THE TERM "OFFICER". Is it "dangerous" to fail to "apply" this provision if, in fact, it doesn't apply?
As I said, the argument is one big exercise in question-begging.
Baude and Paulsen came up with this because it solves their faction's political problem. They don't want to support Biden and don't want to support Trump. They want the GOP to nominate the type of people it used to nominate, back when their faction controlled the party. And all of this constitutional argumentation is window dressing-- question begging, ad hominem window dressing.
If there’s one thing the people who litigated Brown believed in, it was disenfranchising half the voters in America.
Esper, you argue that from the wrong point of view. There were folks then who did howl, threaten violence, and commit deadly violence, while insisting their half of America was disenfranchised. Those folks were in the same posture with regard to Brown then, as you are now in regard to the Trump disqualification case.
Are you willing to apply all these bullshit arguments to the Second Amendment, Dilan Esper? There are a lot of people who’d like to pretend that one doesn’t exist.
Largely based on theories of perceived ambiguity.
"Conversely, if you want to argue that risking the destruction of America is totally worth it because there would be absolutely horrifying things that would happen if we gave an obscure provision of the Constitution that nobody ever talked about before the last 2 years a narrow construction, argue that."
And, as I said above, the worst of it is that there's absolutely nothing in their interpretation of Section 3 that prohibits according Trump more procedural protection. It doesn't prohibit according him a criminal trial for insurrection. There's a perfectly on point law they could use.
They just can't be bothered allowing him that, because he might end up acquitted.
Brett, the last thing that people like Professor Baude want is a trial for POTUS Trump on charges of insurrection. The risk of a 'not guilty' verdict is too great. Imagine the uproar over a not guilty verdict, or a hung jury (even worse). Oh, would you want to sit on that Jury? Not me. Every kook and crazy in the world will have a bullseye on you. That trial would take years to litigate. Just think of discovery. Years. POTUS Trump will trundle along to trial in a walker hooked up to an O2 bottle by the time they finish litigating it. Assuming he is even alive; he is almost 80 now.
Better for the country for SCOTUS to make a decisive 9-0 ruling. We need a little certainty and stability right now.
If you’re so afraid of Dr. Ed and his imaginary truck driver friends that you think the Supreme Court should ignore the constitution, that’s pretty craven. If you don’t like being called out, maybe you should try showing a little backbone?
It's not "ignoring the constitution"- this is a contested provision and it is ALWAYS proper to consider consequences and social policy when interpreting contested provisions.
"Ignoring the constitution" is a straw man.
I’m all for some consequentialism, but Baude’s argument is that there is no ambiguity.
And ignoring the Constitution is not a strawman – it is literally what Brett is advocating for. He's got a Brett take on how he wants the case to go, but his argument has shifted from bad Civil War history to 'my way or the country gets it.'
I apologize for how forceful I am going to be here.
But when Baude says there is no ambiguity he is lying. Indeed he is knowingly, materially, lying his butt off.
Of course there are ambiguities. What the hell does "insurrection" mean? I CAN concede Baude and Paulsen have reasonable arguments, but "no ambiguity"? That is a baldface, obvious, howler of a lie.
And he HAS to lie. His whole argument about how we have no choice but to risk violence and destruction depends on that lie. If he says "actually reasonable people do disagree as to the level of conduct that constitutes an insurrection, but I think I have the better argument", the first part of that argument, he knows well, lets the consequential arguments in the door.
And when someone is just obviously lying, it makes it truly offensive that he calls my fears "craven and insidious". Because he's being totally craven! He's willing to tell Grade AAA lies because he needs them for his argument.
Again, at bottom, this is about Baude and Paulsen trying to override the fact that the GOP is nominating a candidate they don't want to support, and that they don't want to vote for Biden either. That's what's driving this. Section 3 of the 14th Amendment is just the implement they picked up to try and get there.
Ignoring the Constitution because of your fears is craven; where are you going to draw the line? Will you let Trump become president after he loses another election because you're afraid? Let Trump be a dictator until he dies because you're afraid? Maybe you should move out of the home of the brave.
I want Trump on the ballot because I'm not afraid to face up to the possibility that this country is so deranged that he could win in 2024.
It's not "ignoring" the Constitution. It's Cromwell's Rule. "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."
It's just so damn arrogant of Baude to be so damn confident he's right, he can justify burning the country down on a legal point.
It's so arrogant to think that disqualifying the guy who tried to illegally overturn an election is burning the country down.
It’s just so damn arrogant of Baude to be so damn confident he’s right
THE IRONY
Bellmore, Baude is not the one threatening to burn the country down. You are.
And it's Baude's full-time job to analyze the Constitution and be right about it. It could be—unlikely as it seems—that you might find some point to correct him on. Why not try that instead of denying the product of his professional expertise on the basis of nothing more than frustration and outrage?
The point isn’t that Profs. Baude and Paulsen are certain that they’re right. The point is that the possibility of unfortunate political consequences isn’t evidence that they’re wrong.
You don’t seem to have any trouble understanding this when it comes to constitutional interpretations you agree with. Why are you fighting so hard against principled constitutionalism for the sake of Trump?
Your telepathy finding bad faith in Baude is not an argument.
You're doing the Brett thing, and mistaking your confidence for the perfidy of anyone who disagrees with your take.
Of course there are ambiguities. What the hell does “insurrection” mean?
Esper, for a case allegedly involving organized violence by thousands who Trump summoned for the occasion, with criminal convictions of hundreds already accomplished—plus a contemporaneous coup attempt planned-for long in advance—to probe for ambiguities at the margins is pointless. You already have dead-center insurrection. Ambiguities at the margins don't matter.
I find this argument weird.
In this article, Baude isn't replying to the argument that the meaning is too unclear to enforce.
It seems like your response to this article could have been, "Baude is wrong about the meaning of the 14th Amendment. But in this article, he's right that if it meant what he thinks it does and if the facts of Trump's actions were as he thinks they are, then we should enforce it even against Trump, in spite of the consequences."
If you think that Section 3 doesn’t require Trump’s disqualification, that’s fine. For that matter, it’s fine if you think that and are happy about it because you think that’s a healthier result for the country. But thus far, the only case you’ve presented is that Section 3 is wrong because you’re afraid of the consequences (with perhaps a soupçon on the “anti democratic” argument that was demolished yesterday). And that is a position that is as reprehensible as it is cowardly—so it’s a little much to complain about getting called out for it.
And why is Juneteenth a Federal Holiday?
You honestly think that fears of violent mobs doesn't influence politics? Really????
Another incredibly imaginative bad take by Ed!
Gaslight0, SLAVERY DIDN'T EVEN END ON THAT DATE!!!
It didn't even end with the 13th Amendment because that didn't apply to Indian tribes, who also had Black slaves.
So what? It's a day to celebrate the ending of slavery, one of the most consequential things to happen in the history of the US.
You think Juneteenth was created out of fear of black people. No evidence, other than nonsense that would render Christmas a fake holiday.
Yeah, it's a stupid, racist take. The only thing it has to say for it is it's creativity; it's so dumb I never saw it coming.
At the Volokh Conspiracy? Something racist? Something stupid?
Something disgusting
Something mistrusting
Something for reprobates
Conspiracy, tonight!
Something gay-bashing,
Something trans-trashing,
Something for reprobates
Conspiracy, tonight!
Nothing with truth, nothing with grounds
There's only trolls, cons, liars and clowns.
Something that's sexist
Something that's racist
Something for reprobates
Conspiracy, tonight!
Something retarded
Something black hearted
Something for reprobates
Conspiracy, tonight!
Nothing that's smart, nothing that's sane
Everything here's completely inane
Some kind of hate speech,
Never a great speech,
Often the speech will break your brain!
Reality tomorrow,
Conspiracy tonight!
What about the culpability of the people who foisted the Russia-gate hoax on us? They suggested how far they would go to hinder a lawfully elected president. They will use lawfare rather than warfare if they can get away with it. But if you read the Time Magazine column about the “cabal” that worked to “fortify” the election against Donald Trump, we have something as evil as anything they accuse Trump and his followers of. They were ready to have violent demonstrations in every US city with a population greater than 50,000. That seems a lot more like an "insurrection" than the embarrassing riot of January 6th.
The anti-Trump cabal will destroy our democratic republic in order to “save” it. Problem is, they are incompetent...and they don't even realize it.
The pro-Trump cabal are already fine with trying to illegaly overturn elections. Everything else is just pretexts and rationalisations.
Yes, the things that happened only in your head are terrible.
Anyone who would suggest that the Constitution not be enforced against someone because that someone's supporters, fellow cult members, fellow cartel members, etc. might do something violent in response is a coward.
Argue that A14 is being implemented improperly. Argue that Trump isn't an insurrectionist. Argue whatever you like about the facts, but if you think the law should apply in this instance but that we just shouldn't do so because you're scared, then you are nothing more than a yellow-bellied, craven coward willing to surrender the rule of law to domestic terrorists and their empty threats.
The real risk of the danger of this clause, is that it be used to further disqualify "unwanted" individuals from office for similarly "limited" evidence.
There are already calls to disqualify Reps. Andy Biggs, Mo Brooks and Paul Gosar from office for their supposed actions during January 6th. There are other calls that Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley supposedly engaged in "section 3 covered conduct".
There are yet other calls that 126 House Republicans engaged in some section 3 activities by "frivolous amicus brief backing Texas’s unsuccessful effort to have the Supreme Court block Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin from certifying their election results." Perhaps they should all be disqualified as well?
How long before anyone who doesn't support the administration is simply "disqualified" for insurrection?
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/disqualifying-insurrectionists-and-rebels-how-guide
There are already calls to disqualify Reps. Andy Biggs, Mo Brooks and Paul Gosar from office for their supposed actions during January 6th.
But suppose it were demonstrated in a court of law that these three reps were indeed engaged in insurrection on Jan 6 - should they not be DQ'd?
And this isn't an attempted coup?
Or shouldn't be viewed as such???
SRG,
To be clear, are you asking whether the successful criminal prosecution of those three under the Insurrection Act, should bring disqualification?
Of course it would. There would be no basis for argument
Indeed. That would be considered legitimate. As would Congress acting via its powers.
Agreed. A successful criminal prosecution for insurrection under the relevant federal statute would absolutely DQ someone, to me also. Now, that conviction might be appealed, the DQ stayed, yada, yada, yada...but yeah, I agree. You're convicted? You're done.
A (hypothetical) criminal conviction of Donald Trump under 18 U.S.C. § 2383 would moot any proceedings for disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3. The criminal statute mandates that anyone convicted thereunder shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
An acquittal under § 2383, however, would not preclude imposition of the civil disability created by § 3. As Justice Brandeis opined in Helvering v. Mitchell, 303 U.S. 391, 397-398 (1938):
Compare United States v. One Assortment of 89 Firearms, 465 U.S. 354 (1984); One Lot Emerald Cut Stones v. United States, 409 U.S. 232 (1972) (per curiam).
It wouldn't legally preclude it, the reason they're not doing it is that an acquittal would politically preclude it.
Well, actually, they'd probably say something stupid like, "A majority of the jury voted to convict, so he's been adjudicated guilty." They already went there with the impeachments, after all.
I think the anti-Trump cabal won't stop until they DQ anyone who votes against re-electing Joe Biden. What better way to ensure his re-election than by disenfranchising anyone who would vote against him.
But it was Trump who tried to disenfranchse everyone who voted for Biden, so your slippery slope is set against an actual thing that happened.
Slippery slope fallacies from a pathological liar won’t convince anyone.
I mean it's hardly even a slippery slope at this point since it's already happening. The claims are being publicly demanded. If you allow one, why would we not allow others that are already being accused? This is a really, REALLY low bar.
Indeed. If the SCOTUS allowed the claims against Trump to be upheld, it would be hard to stop the claims against at least the other 3 Representatives. Find a friendly court (DC district), claim they are disqualified, and boom. And the SCOTUS already approved similar claims.
Given the close balance of the House currently, one could potentially even flip it back to the Democrats via this method. 3 isn't "quite" enough now, but find a couple more and...boom.
'there are calls for a thing' is the 'many people are saying' weak-ass attempt to pretend something is happening when it is not.
There have already been civil lawsuits against Mo Brooks in regards to January 6th. The Biden DoJ has refused to support him. "People are saying" has already gone to lawsuits...
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/28/1021611663/the-doj-wont-defend-rep-mo-brooks-in-court-against-claims-he-incited-jan-6-riot
Your issue here is either:
1) Someone filed a thing. Not about disqualification, but nevertheless!
2) Someone called for disqualification. Nothing filed, but nevertheless!
3) Too many Republicans have done insurrections, and thus might be disqualified
4) The judiciary is all corrupt and down with disqualifying Republicans, but have been held back until now by no one suing Republicans.
Which of these incredible concerns is yours?
Goalpost moving. Next.
As I pointed out, your link doesn't mention disqualification. Sorry I didn't hew to your new goalposts, but that's you shifting not me.
How do you think a narrow construction of Section 3 would have affected that lawsuit?
Can you point us to these court rulings that have already happened?
No? I didn't think so.
'What bad things will other people do if I do the right thing?' is a question any judge should be ashamed even to ask himself."
That's... not QUITE right. I mean, in general, it's a useful principle, but it's not ALWAYS true.
For starter, any judge has a responsibility to provide fair warning to relevant police forces, and maybe even relevant military forces, that a REALLY disruptive and unpopular ruling might plausibly be released within a certain narrow window of time, and that the days in question would be a really good day for the Riot Police to have put some barricades up ahead of time.
Likewise, anytime a Judge issues a complex order which he KNOWS is going to make everyone else's lives incredibly complex and difficult the instant the order is read, the concept of "dicta" quickly becomes very useful. The least the Judge can do is provide SOME hint of what repercussions following this ruling are likely to be 'legal' versus 'illegal', and where future court cases on a similar topic are likely to start in their thinking.
The worst thing SCOTUS could possibly do in Trump vs Anderson is probably to issue a three-sentence decision, saying "Colorado was absolutely legally entitled to do what they did, under their own laws as applied to local primaries. We provide absolutely no guidance on what else 14.3 might or might not mean, or what powers different courts might or might not have. Sue, Appeal, and find out.
Scotus knows that any ruling they make on the Colorado question is going to get very complicated for voters everywhere, fast, and therefore they do have some responsibility to provide early hints on what the available future options are likely to be. Without flat-out pre-judging any future case, of course.
And then, we get into Force-Majeure questions, like what happens if the USA is losing a huge war, on it's home territory? If every Congressmen or Senator is dead, POTUS, Veep, and every Cabinet Secretary is dead, most governors and deputy cabinet secretaries are either dead or in hiding, every general is dead, captured or in hiding....
But for some reason, the enemy has some rule about not killing judges. If, in that situation, Colin Powell brings HIMSELF out of retirement to negotiate an instrument of surrender, and the resulting document is about as fair as anyone could hope for, for a nation that was just utterly defeated in war... Under the circumstances, even if the instrument of surrender is blatantly unconstitutional, there's a plausible argument that it's Force Majeure, and that the one thing SCOTUS CAN'T do is specifically rule that the instrument of surrender is unconstitutional. We're kind of beyond that now. On the other hand, ruling that the instrument of surrender is constitutional is wrong too. Best SCOTUS can really say in that situation is either "We Quit" or "We are powerless to do anything about this". SCOTUS does have to take SOME realities into consideration before making it's ruling.
That said, the 14.3 question is nowhere NEAR that serious. As long as SCOTUS arranges for some riot police and provides some guidance for the first time a lawsuit reaches federal district court, that should be good enough.
It's more often the case that judges take too much time to make a ruling, not too little.
Bizarre hypothetical. But Colin Powell died several years ago. SCOTUS could reasonably find the surrender a political matter (and who would be challenging it?). Also, the correct strategy would have been to make every American citizen a judge.
I was watching an old tv series about Occupied/Vichy France in WWII. It came to mind.
I didn't realize that Colin Powell was dead, though.
Man, so is Madeline Albright...
Condi Rice is still kicking it, though. She can write the instruments of surrender, then.
Or, the Court could just rule promptly that an originalist analysis shows the CO case was correctly decided, and that it is the duty of the Court to apply the decision nationally. Trump is off the ballot in all 50 states. Get another candidate GOP, we've given you time to do it.
What would be wrong with that, Krenn? Can you think of an answer that would not be craven or insidious?
SCOTUS applying the decision nationally, imposing a uniform rule and duty nationwide, would be a GREAT decision. It takes into account what the consequences will be of ONLY affirming Colorado, and then takes logical steps to prevent several more months of damage and confusion.
The problem is if SCOTUS is WILFULLY BLIND to what the consequences of affirming Colorado would be, such that SCOTUS provides ZERO useful guidance for everyone else in the country who understandably cares about something rather bigger than ‘just’ Colorado ballot access in primary elections.
Can you find anyone who says don't enforce Sec. 3?
I thought the issue was whether there should a canon of construction to resolve ambiguities in Sec. 3 in favor of the would-be officeholder...and that one argument in favor of such a canon of construction would be to minimize the harm to self-government.
Just as if the evidence shows a person is between 34 and 36, but fails to prove anything with more specificity, the person should be presumed to be 35.
Of course, the canon could be the other way - strictly interpreting the relevant disqualification to prioritize keeping unfit people out of office.
But if there's actually a legal scholar saying "ignore Sec. 3 lest Trump head an insurrection," or some such argument, show me the link.
They provided three links. More journalists than legal scholars, but still...
and these are some of the CALMER and more RESPONSIBLE arguments. when you start reading BAD journalists, or god help you, internet commentors, the claims about complete destruction of democracy and impending civil war if we use 14.3 start getting CRAZY.
First link:
"Then here is the point that I, a non-scholar, want to make (though I should note that Segall makes it as well): Even if Baude and Paulsen were deemed correct on some pure empyrean level of constitutional debate, and Salmon Chase or anyone else deemed completely wrong, their correctness would be unavailing in reality, and their prescription as a political matter would be so disastrous and toxic and self-defeating that no responsible jurist or official should consider it.
The idea that the best way to deal with a demagogic populist whose entire appeal is already based on disillusionment with the established order is for state officials — in practice, state officials of the opposing political party — to begin unilaterally excluding him from their ballots on the basis of their own private judgment of crimes that he has not been successfully prosecuted for … I’m sorry, the mind reels. It should not happen, it would not work if it did happen, John Roberts and four more justices would not uphold it, and it would license political chaos to no good purpose whatsoever. And if the legal theorist’s response is that this isn’t the “best” way to deal with Trump, it’s just the way that the Constitution requires, then so much the worse for their theory of the Constitution."
Second link:
"We have argued from the moment Mr. Trump entered the presidential contest in 2015 that the way to defeat him is through the ballot box. Voters will get their chance to do it again next year—first in the primaries and perhaps the general election.
If Mr. Trump does somehow regain the Presidency, in part because Democrats insist on renominating a weak President Biden, the normal U.S. checks and balances will continue to exist. The consequences of a 14th Amendment panic are likely to be worse for democracy and its institutions than trusting voters and 234 years of sturdy constitutional example."
third link:
"Arguments about the continuing force and sweep of Section 3 are interesting; unleavened by prudence, they are dangerous. There could be no surer way to further embitter and calcify Trump’s supporters than to stretch constitutional language to eliminate an electoral choice. And, in the process, to preempt judicial determinations about the nature and legal status of Trump’s Jan. 6 behavior."
Your first quote indicates that he rejects the idea of Baude and Paulsen being right except hypothetically on some “empyrean level” – otherwise the quote itself mentions Chief Justice Chase, mocks of “private judgment,” mentions the lack of prosecution, and says “so much the worse for *their theory* of the Constitution.” [emphasis added]
The second quote refers to “234 years of sturdy constitutional example,” which doesn’t sound like a call to defy the Constitution.
The third link advocates “prudence” in interpreting the Constitution, and seems to think the behavior of the anti-Trumpers would “preempt judicial determinations” – I’m not sure what that means*, but it doesn’t sound like violating the constitution.
*Isn't Trump *already* getting a "judicial determination"?
Three links, all craven and insidious.
All the proffered craven and insidious arguments—from whatever sources—share three points in common:
1. Appeasement works;
2. There are not any dangerous or even politically committed folks on the other side to go batshit and start disruptions;
3. Trump is just a normal candidate—never mind the coup attempt—and if you let him run again everything will be just fine, win or lose.
Note that every one of those is a demand that the Court ignore the Constitution, and decide the case instead on purely conjectural speculations about future outcomes. And they pick and choose among conjectures, allowing only those which they unwisely suppose support their own political preferences.
All three of those quotes included skepticism that the Constitution, properly interpreted, actually applies to this situation. I still haven’t seen a clear-cut example of anyone saying, “you’re right, Mr. Law Professor, Section 3 applies, but what’s the Constitution between friends”?
By what means should anyone distinguish misinformed and unfounded, "skepticism," from motivated reasoning?
What are the right means to deal with the, "Half the population thinks otherwise," argument, when what that half of the population thinks does not include attending to the arguments?
So, we just assume that any interpretation of the Constitution, other than your own, is in bad faith?
Dilan Esper in comments above, and in at least one previous thread. Most people motivated in that way come up with rationalizations for their cowardice.
I may have cast the net too broadly by asking my question in such a way as to include Internet commenters, who as we know can be a bit insane.
Dilan Esper doesn't seem crazy.
Technically, I didn’t call any specific person insane. I did say that internet commenters *can* be insane.
And I just found this Esper quote above:
"As I said yesterday there’s numerous interpretations of this provision where Donald Trump stays on the ballot. So you can’t say “this must be enforced” as if it is like enforcing the limit on 33 year olds getting elected President. There’s no agreement on what enforcement looks like! A lot of people think that proper enforcement of Section 3 does not require disenfranchising all the Trump voters and taking his name of the ballot!"
Not usually.
With all the A14S3 self-executing talk, I have to ask the 'Self Executioners': What other parts of the Constitution are self-executing like A14S3? What's the next newly found self-executing amendment?
Being 35 years old is self executing. Also being a natural born citizen.
Here's a fun idea. Let's absolutely decide that the 14th Amendment isn't self-executing. That way, the Second Amendment won't apply to the states unless Congress wants it to.
Even years after the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Supreme Court in United States v. Cruikshank (1876) still held that the First and Second Amendment did not apply to state governments. However, beginning in the 1920s, a series of Supreme Court decisions interpreted the Fourteenth Amendment to "incorporate" most portions of the Bill of Rights, making these portions, for the first time, enforceable against the state governments.
What's dangerous is allowing millions of third world migrants into America. What's dangerous is telling blacks they're just as smart as whites so that when they inevitably fail, they're resentful.
What's dangerous is the Rev. Kirkland busting bare into other men, spreading a variety of diseases.
Look at the cute bigot hiding behind his keyboard!
Go play in traffic. America doesn't need people like you.
America doesn't need traitors.
"Was that really the historically preferable policy?" Yes.
Majoritarian rule has been a Constitutional goal only of those who actually seek dictatorial rule: the Pharoah Lincoln's and Has-been Hillary's of the world detest opposition in any form and seek to crush it by any means available, including through the use of the academy.
Don't get me wrong -- so far I happen to agree with refutations Baude makes to the various objections to his thesis. But he is careful and clever in the refutations he chooses to make and continues to assume, without basis, that the Civil War was a clear victory embraced by all and that the Civil War -- an "insurrection" killing more than 620,000 uniformed [military] soldiers -- is somehow comparable to 2,000 dudes breaking Nanci Pelosi's mirror and causing Saturday night mayhem. This __IS__ dangerous, as it equates the minor with the major: it is also devoid of academic honesty.
mydisplayname, you omitted the long-planned and coordinated coup attempt. Try being forthright; it will earn your tips on honesty more credibility.
Great discovery Prof WILL BAUDE, and MICHAEL PAULSEN!
Congrats on figuring out the constitution allows "un-democratic" removing political opponents from the ballots! Let's just allow democrats to form a committee to pick a president! All drama disappeared!
Just say you hate Trump. These legal theories for getting him off the ballot make no sense. Electing Trump is the only way to restore legitimacy to the USA.
Allowing Trump on the ballot would be giving in to the mob. (The mob of Jan. 6, 2021, and also the much better organized and deadly mob of Jan. 6, 2025, if Biden wins again.) To save the nation we might have to give in to the mob, but let’s not flatter ourselves by saying it’s something else.
Professors Baude and Paulsen reference Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 347 U.S. 483 (1954), and segregationists' ensuing campaign of "massive resistance" to school desegregation. The analogy is instructive. I suspect that that campaign had broader support and better organization than the present day cult of Donald Trump and his legion of keyboard warriors.
Two presidents sent federal troops to enforce school desegregation as the law of the land -- Little Rock in 1957 and the University of Mississippi in 1962. The United States is better off for having overcome the haters.
If Trump's minions were to take up arms, 10 U.S.C. § 251 et seq. furnishes President Biden with ample authority to quell the resistance. That would not be pretty, but neither would it last long.
not guilty, as you no doubt understand, it would be far better to quash the resistance in court right now. With the other Trump cases looking increasingly likely to be delayed past election relevance—or, worse, to become all too relevant right at election time—Trump v. Anderson now shapes up as the one legal opportunity to assure a better result than constitutional crisis and violent suppression might deliver.
Section 3 delivers power to the Court to hand down a decision which would sweep Trump off the ballot nationwide, end his political ambitions, and enable his timely replacement with an actually qualified GOP nominee. It is likely that any such nominee would go on to victory, and claim the presidency. Even a MAGA-friendly nominee might do it.
Thus, the Supreme Court, as early as this week or next, has power to deliver a decision which could end at a stroke the threat of a full year of political crisis, avoiding all the discomfiting happenstance which might ensue. The Court could render impotent as goads to constitutional crisis all the other Trump-related cases. That would turn them into mere criminal matters without historic implications, to be tried at whatever leisurely pace the now-quailing judiciary can manage.
A result such as that would turn Section 3 into a masterpiece of constitutional foresight. It would very soon re-establish the reputation of this beleaguered Supreme Court—or at least go far toward doing so. To do it, the Court has only to summon the courage and comity necessary to see the opportunity, and act on it.
I suggest that makes Trump v. Anderson, right now, the most important legal case the Supreme Court has considered since Brown. Given even an outside possibility that Trump's MAGA legion could deliver an existential threat to American constitutionalism, it could even prove the most consequential case in U.S. history—although success would leave that counter-factual as a puzzle for history to ponder. Which would be yet another brilliant outcome from enforcing Section 3.
Professor Baude is not completely correct. There is in fact room within the Constitution for this type of objection. Both Congress’ express ability to lift Section 3 disabilities and the President’s pardon power stem from a recognition that whether to enforce a rule or not is sometimes subject to political considerations.
This actually occurred in the case of the former Confederates, who were nearly all releived of the strictures by a combination of congressional legislation and presidential pardons. George Washington had previously pardoned the participants in the Whiskey Rebellion. Various other pardons, such as Jimmy Carter’s pardon of Vietnam war draft dodgers, also come to mind.
A decision to grant relief of this kind might well be made on the basis of a decision that a person or cause has so much popular support that not granting amnesty would be destabilizing to the country, and amnesty is in the country’s best interest. A decision it is the least dangerous course to take is a permissable use of the power.
Such a decision is a political one, reserved to the political branches to make. But it is nonetheless legitimate to argue, rightly or wrongly, that it should be made.
Congress has the power to relieve Trump of Section 3 disability. It’s within the realm of legitimate political discourse to argue that it should use that power in his case.
But you just undermined your own case. The way pardons and section three (and impeachments) work is for that kind of escape valve to be explicitly political. Courts aren’t supposed to interpret the constitution differently in these kinds of cases. Instead, Congress or the executive is supposed to act to relieve the pressure.
So if SCOTUS finds Trump to be unqualified under Section Three and it really is the outrage that the doomsayers predict, Congress can just restore him with a simple vote. That’s how it’s supposed to work. The existence of the escape valve is the proof that the drafters of the amendment wanted it to be applied straightforwardly, since any misapplications could be remedied by Congress.
You're making an argument for applying 14/3 to Trump.
Read carefully to determine what argument I am actually making rather than assuming I am making a “case.”
Professor Baude is not completely correct…. [Rather,] whether to enforce a rule or not is sometimes subject to political considerations.
No, Professor Baude is completely correct that Section Three should be enforced, political considerations notwithstanding.
The fact that Section Three includes a built-in way to negate the enforcement doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be enforced. It means there’s really no reason not to enforce it, since there’s an escape valve there to protect from over-enforcement.
In other words, I get the point you were trying to make, but you overreached with your rhetoric.
It’s open to argue that Congress should relieve Trump of any Section 3 disability. If Congress did so, then Section 3 would not be enforced. And Congress could decide to do so for entirely political reasons, including because it concludes enforcing Section 3 would be dangerous.
You may see a difference between arguing Trump should be relieved of Section 3 disability and arguing Section 3 shouldn’t be enforced against him. But I don’t see a meaningful difference. If Congress relieves Mr. Trump of the disability, it may perhaps somehow still be being enforced against him on some Platonic realm. But I don’t see how it would be in the world we live in.
You may see a difference between arguing Trump should be relieved of Section 3 disability and arguing Section 3 shouldn’t be enforced against him. But I don’t see a meaningful difference.
But Baude's argument only applies to the latter, not the former. So you're misconstruing Baude's argument when you criticize it in the context of Congress removing the disibility. It doesn't apply to that context.
Congress exercising a power given to them by Section 3 would also be an example of Section 3 being "enforced". What else would be the source of their power to remove the disability prescribed?
"You may see a difference between arguing Trump should be relieved of Section 3 disability and arguing Section 3 shouldn’t be enforced against him. But I don’t see a meaningful difference."
Seriously? If "should be relieved of Section 3 disability" means Congress acts in a way the Constitution allows, and "shouldn't be enforced against him" means Section 3 is simply read out of the Constitution, then there is a stark difference. If you believe in the Constitution, only one of them is permissible.
Professor Baude said that the ARGUMENT that Trump shouldn’t be disqualified from public office by Section 3 because doing so is too dangerous is an essentially anti-constitutional argument, a “dangerous” argument.
What I am saying is that because Section 3 itself provides a way to determine whether or not it should be applied in a given situation based on political considerations and specifies an actor authorized to make that determination, the ARGUMENT ITSELF can’t be as dangerous and essentially anti-constitutional an argument as Professor Baude is saying. All that has to happen is the argument needs to be directed at the right actor. When directed at Congress, the argument becomes a completely constitutionally permissible argument, even a constitutionally contemplated one.
I don’t see why which audience the argument should be directed at should be seen as changing the argument itself. The argument itself remains exactly the same argument – Section 3 shouldn’t be applied to Mr. Trump because doing so would be dangerous to the stability of the country — regardless of which actor the Constitution designates as the right party to consider the argument and make the relevant decsion. The fact that Congress and not somebody else happens to be the correct and proper audience for the argument doesn’t change the nature of the argument itself.