The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Objection that Enforcing Section Three is "Undemocratic"
[Note: This is the second in a series of essays responding to objections that have been made to enforcing Section Three of the Constitution. The first, introductory essay, can be found here.]
What about democracy?! We should let the people vote for whomever they want!
Perhaps the most common objection to enforcing Section Three is that doing so would be "undemocratic" in some sense. Taking Section Three seriously, and applying its constitutional disqualification rigorously, it is said, would interfere with the right to vote. It would impair the right of the people to select their own leaders. It would be contrary to democracy. It would be downright unAmerican!
So the charge goes. In reality, this is more a political objection than a truly legal one (though it is sometimes cast in legal terms). It is ultimately an objection to Section Three itself – an objection to what the Constitution says and does. It is at bottom an anti-constitutional argument – an argument for not complying with what the Constitution requires. In the end, the argument, notwithstanding whatever rhetorical appeal it might have, is wholly unpersuasive as a legal matter.
This objection comes in many rhetorical forms:
These are different ways of saying much the same thing. However cast, the substance of the objection is always pretty much the same.
The argument has a certain intuitive appeal: everybody supports "democracy" as an abstract proposition. But all versions of the argument share a common analytic flaw: they beg the relevant legal question entirely.
We begin with first principles. Our democracy is a constitutional democracy. The Constitution both channels and constrains democratic choice, and Section Three is one of those many constraints. It is a fundamental feature of the supreme Law of the Land. Accordingly, once we figure out exactly what constraints Section Three in fact imposes, that should settle the matter. The "democracy" objection is thus a complete red herring. If the Constitution imposes such a disqualification, that is indeed a limitation on voting and democratic choice. But it is a limitation that must be honored in a constitutional republic that imposes specific limitations and checks on the democratic political process.
The fact that the Constitution both channels and constrains democratic choice is evident from many different provisions. The Constitution constrains what government may do. It limits—through its grant of only limited federal powers, through its restrictions on state powers, and through its protection of individual rights—what democratic majorities can do, whether through Congress, through the states, or even through popular referenda. As the Supreme Court memorably put it in the case of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the Constitution removes certain matters "from the vicissitudes of political controversy," placing them "beyond the reach of majorities and officials." Where the Constitution speaks to a question, such matters "may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections." No matter how big the electoral majority, the Constitution is higher law that ordinary elections cannot change.
The Constitution's rules governing the elections and the electoral process are likewise supreme law. As to the specific question of eligibility for elected office, the Constitution restricts the right to vote, indirectly, by restricting who is eligible to hold specified elected offices. The President must be at least thirty-five years old. The President must be a "natural born" U.S. citizen, rather than a naturalized immigrant. The President must have been a resident of the United States for 14 years. The President must not have been elected to the presidency twice before. Age, residency, and citizenship restrictions all apply to Senators and Representatives as well.
All of these restrictions limit democratic choice. All of them could be decried as "undemocratic" in that sense. We cannot vote for former presidents Barack Obama or George W. Bush or Bill Clinton because they are disqualified from the presidency by the Twenty-second amendment. We cannot vote for former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger because, having been born in Austria to Austrian parents, he is constitutionally ineligible to be president. We cannot by our votes constitutionally choose a twenty-five year old for president. We cannot select a dead man, or a live dog, to be president, as neither one is a constitutionally eligible "person" within the meaning of the Constitution. All of these provisions limit the right of the people to elect whomever they wish. All of these provisions are in that sense "undemocratic." Are they all equally subject to condemnation in the pages of the New York Times? Are these provisions of the Constitution un-American?
This point runs deeper too. It runs to the structure of presidential elections themselves. In 2016, one of the candidates for President, Hillary Clinton, won a majority of the population's vote for President. But the other candidate, Donald Trump, became President because of the plain rules of the Constitution, which decides the presidency through the electoral college, and thus the electoral vote, even if that is not what a majority of the voters chose. Donald Trump lost the 2016 popular election by almost three million votes, but became President nonetheless because we follow the Constitution, not simple majority votes. That is "undemocratic," in a sense, but it is also basic constitutional law. (The same thing has happened in at least three earlier presidential elections, and there was another in which no candidate had an electoral vote majority.)
While there have been plenty of criticisms of the electoral vote system, virtually nobody denies that it is the law. Right-thinking, law-abiding citizens expected supporters of Hillary Clinton to stand aside and accept the election of Donald Trump, "undemocratic" though it might be, because the law is the law and the rules are the rules and that is the only way for a constitutional democracy to survive. And with a few ignoble exceptions, they did. For Trump's supporters and enablers to turn around now, and demand special exemption from constitutional rules they find inconvenient or undemocratic does not pass basic civics.
The essential problem with the "undemocratic" objection, in all its forms, then, is that it is simply legally irrelevant. It is empty political rhetoric that elides the core legal question of constitutional law: Does Section Three impose a constitutional ban on officeholding that applies in the specific situation at hand? If the answer is yes, we are not at liberty to ignore the Constitution's command – at least not if we purport to be governed by the terms of a written constitution. (Indeed, at least one of the objectors quoted above, Professor Samuel Moyn of Yale Law School, is explicit about this. In the pages of the New York Times he has also written that he seeks to "reclaim American from constitutionalism.")
What is more, these constitutional constraints in fact serve basic democratic functions, and that is especially true of Section Three. As others have pointed out, Section Three's disqualification from office of oath-breaking former officers who subsequently engaged in insurrection against the U.S. Constitution by attempting to overthrow or displace lawful government under the Constitution, is itself a fundamentally democracy-protective provision of our Constitution. It protects lawful United States government under the Constitution, by excluding from power men and women who, as demonstrated by their actions, would overthrow democracy and democratic choice under the Constitution.
Indeed, it is precisely Donald Trump's efforts to upend lawful democratic electoral choice under the Constitution that constitute the gravamen of Trump's disqualification by Section Three. Trump's efforts to overthrow the result of a lawful election and to install himself in office notwithstanding having lost that democratic constitutional election and to thwart, by fraud or by force, the peaceful transition of power to the election's winner, form the core of the factual and legal case for Trump's disqualification. These efforts were profoundly anti-democratic interferences with the processes of constitutional democracy. To decline to enforce Section Three in such circumstances may be the most anti-democratic choice of all.
Our friend Michael McConnell offers a subtle variation of the "democracy" argument. His argument is not that Section Three should not be followed at all. It is that Section Three's terms should be given as narrow a reading as possible so as to limit their supposed ill effects and susceptibility to abuse. In a post on this blog last fall, Professor McConnell conceded that he had "not done the historical work to speak with confidence" as to the original meaning and scope of the terms "insurrection" and "rebellion" as those terms were used in Section Three. Nonetheless, McConnell "would hazard the suggestion" that "we should seek the narrowest" reading of the terms that we can fashion, for the policy reason that "we should allow the American people to vote for the candidates of their choice." (Professor McConnell recently repeated this strict construction position in an on-line article, available here, which we will discuss shortly.)
Professor McConnell's variation on the "democracy" argument is no more faithful to the Constitution than the direct argument that we should not enforce Section Three at all because it is supposedly anti-democratic. Like Chief Justice Chase's opinion in Griffin's Case – discussed at length in our original article manuscript – Professor McConnell lets his political skepticism of Section Three drive his legal interpretation of its terms. This is fundamentally methodologically unsound, at least for someone committed (as we are) to "originalism" – the project of seeking to ascertain, and faithfully apply, the original, objective meaning of the Constitution.
A faithful constitutional interpreter should not begin by choosing a political principle and then fashioning a reading of the text trimmed to suit those purposes. The right approach is to seek first the correct meaning of the Constitution itself, and then to apply it faithfully as the law requires. Reading the text narrowly in light of a pro-democracy principle – or really, a pro-eligibility-even-of-possible-insurrectionists-principle – would be justified only if the text itself, or its original legal meaning, reflected that principle. But of course Section Three was enacted precisely because its framers thought its targets could no longer be trusted with power, even if they won a popular vote.
In fairness, McConnell does not really appear here to be attempting to be a constitutional "originalist," seeking the objective meaning of the text. Instead, he is being more a "Burkean" conservative seeking the result he finds least disruptive. One can respect such a stance and still make the observation that it is trimming the Constitution to suit political purposes.
In a more recent on-line essay, Professor McConnell is even more explicit about this approach, laying out his "interpretive priors" under a bold-face heading asserting that "Section Three should be strictly and narrowly construed." Again, this is wrong. The Constitution should not be interpreted with a thumb on the scales in favor of either a "narrow" reading or an "expansive" reading. As the late Justice Antonin Scalia (a noted originalist), and Bryan Garner explain in their treatise Reading Law, contriving an artificially "strict" or "narrow" interpretation of a text is as improper as contriving an unjustifiably expansive interpretation. Scalia and Garner quote Joseph Story for the proposition that we should seek the objective, reasonable interpretation of a legal text, not one driven by a predisposition one way or another. One should not indulge a hostility to the text and therefore seek to construe it in a "strict" fashion:
If . . . we are to give a reasonable construction to this instrument, as a constitution of government established for the common good, we must throw aside all notions of subjecting it to a strict interpretation, as if it were subversive of the great interests of society; or derogated from the inherent sovereignty of the people. (Reading Law at 355, quoting 1 Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, §423, at 300 (2d ed. 1858)).
So too for Section Three: It should not be read with a jaundiced eye, "as if it were subversive of the great interests of society," and construed narrowly out of hostility to its policy.
In general, the objection that our reading of Section Three is "undemocratic" largely misses the mark. Section Three is a part of our Constitution, means what it means, and does what it does. Whether one thinks that Section Three is in tension with democratic values or, quite the reverse, is fundamentally democracy-protective, Section Three is part of our supreme Law of the Land and should be enforced in accordance with its terms.
The "democracy" objection is really a political objection to following the Constitution because one dislikes what it states. It is an objection to complying with the Constitution – an argument for not following the Constitution, because of political hostility to what the document says and does. As such, we think it fairly described as an "anti-constitutional" argument that has no proper place in legal analysis of the Constitution as a binding, authoritative written legal text.
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The flaw lies in thinking Jan 6th was an insurrection. It's a funny one -- no guns, FBI informants leading the way, escorted throughout the building by the guards themselves, and the only deaths were by the "insurrectionists" at the hands of the guards.
But it suits the narrative.
Trump's coup was much more then Jan 6. It was the fake electors, bullying local election officials to declare him the winner, and pressuring Pence to invalidate EC votes.
It is a MAGA misdirection to focus only on Jan 6 and ignore the rest.
The rest isn't an insurrection. Insurrection requires a "rising up" according to some old dictionary I have lying around. Jan 6 is the only time that even arguably happened. Otherwise you're arguing that Gore was committing insurrection by asking for only certain counties to be recounted, knowing that was likely to produce an inflated count in those counties which would make him the winner even though he got fewer votes in the state and thus lost.
Or that several Democrats were committing insurrection by encouraging electors to be unfaithful, in multiple elections.
"Several Democrats."
Hm. Like someone actually running for president? As part of a coordinated, behind-the-scenes campaign to obtain that office?
Citing some op-ed writers from 2016 isn't going to carry the point, Brett. If we were talking about a campaign by a presidential candidate to get multiple states' electors to go faithless and throw their ballots to someone other than the one they previously represented, then maybe there'd be a comparison to draw here. But some grousing on Twitter over the imminent disaster of the Trump presidency is not relevant.
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
John Podesta, the Hillary Clinton campaign chairman whose Gmail account was reputed to have been successfully “phished” by fearsome Russian “hackers,” issued a statement demanding that electors be granted an unheard-of “intelligence briefing” — with the implication for what should be done with that “briefing” information too obvious to need stating outright.
So nothing remotely like what Trump tried.
Functionally the same thing: An effort to change who was called the winner despite who actually won, by suborning somebody in the process.
Except none of that happened. There was no effort. It wasn’t attempted. Nobody tried to suborn anyone. No laws were broken. You really do have difficulty distinguishing between things that happened and things that didn’t happen, don’t you?
"...with the implication for what should be done with that “briefing” information too obvious to need stating outright."
I'm baffled. I don't even know what information would be conveyed to presidential electors at an "intelligence briefing"...let alone what would be done with that information.
There are numerous states in which it is legal for electors to vote for whomever they want. Encouraging them to do so is not breaking any laws at all, so it cannot possibly be insurrection.
The key is using illegal methods to remain in power after losing an election.
If they were illegal.
Instead, they were justified payback.
https://rumble.com/v4azhqc-system-update-show-222.html
That's not payback. That's just trying to stay in power after losing an election.
"The rest isn’t an insurrection."
The actions that you seek to ignore were part of Trump's plan. Your argument would be no different than saying someone withdrawing money to pay a hitman isn't related to a murder charge.
No. Its like withdrawing money is legal.
Withdrawing is not a crime. Paying to has some one killed is crime.
You insist on jailing Trump for withdrawing money. When no one was murdered.
Please don't try that in court.
Withdrawing money is ordinarily "legal", but not when it is an "overt act" undertaken as part of a conspiracy. Then it can be evidence of criminal intent.
So how were "fake electors", "bullying local election officials to declare him the winner", and "pressuring Pence to invalidate EC votes" part of a conspiracy to riot?
Were they actually coded messages to the rioters?
The attack on the Capitol on January 6th would have had little point without the slates of fake electors they wanted to force Pence and Congress to accept in place of the actual election results. Not that these were the only plans pursued to keep Trump in power.
You've actually got that backwards: Trump's alternate elector scheme was actually proceeding as planned, the attack on the Capitol derailed it.
It depended, after all, on using political pressure on members of Congress, to voluntarily take actions they'd stand by afterwards. Not physical pressure to take actions nobody would take seriously because they were obviously coerced, and which they'd repudiate the moment they weren't under threat.
Such physical attacks, coups, only work in countries where the perpetrator has already seized all real power, and is just forcing the legislature to give him a formal legal fig leaf for holding it. It doesn't GET you the power, it is just a kind of PR move.
For an analogy, suppose that Gore in 2000 hadn't relied on the people counting in his recount voluntarily skewing things in his favor, and instead had sent in a violent mob to seize the ballots and force the counters to say that Gore was the obvious majority choice.
It would have gone straight from a persuasion based scheme that very well could work, to a violence based scheme that didn't have a prayer of working even if the mob HAD extracted that statement.
Because nobody outside the room would take a result so obtained seriously! In EITHER case.
Read the Eastman memos, Brett. Not that you read any materials anymore.
The insurrection was a plan to pressure Pence. It was a necessary step; it did not go off as planned.
But an attempted conspiracy to defraud is still a crime.
'hadn’t relied on the people counting in his recount voluntarily skewing things in his favor,'
Stop making shit up that didn't happen while trying to pretend that shit that did happen didn't. 'Jan 6th can't have happened because it didn't work, Gore cheating must have happened because it could have.'
Nothing would have come of the fake electors if the riot part of the insurrection had not happened. Pence didn't have the authority or "courage" to refuse the real electors from the disputed states by himself, and the near even Senate wasn't going to sustain an objection, with the Democratic House of course rejecting it. The fake elector scheme alone was already failed without anything else being done.
If the insurrectionists had killed or taken hostage Pence and enough members of Congress, and Trump's legitimate command of the US military had held against illegal orders, then the plotters believed that the coup could have succeeded. (The military would reject illegal orders, but the insurrectionists believed the police would be on their side; instead, the police could not repel the insurrectionists but did delay them long enough to secure Pence and the members of Congress.)
Of course, the rioters sent in to Florida in 2000 were Republicans, the Brooks Brothers riot.
So the riot was actually planned and premeditated?
I was told it was "incited".
You have it backwards. It's not that they were part of a conspiracy to riot; it's that the riot (along with the other things) was part of a conspiracy to mount a coup, for Trump to stay in power even though he had decisively lost the election.
What truly amazes me is that someone like Molly, who was freaking out 4 years ago about how Trump might refuse to leave office, has no problem with Biden actually trying to do that.
Trump said in August 2020 that he should get a third term; in September 2020 he refused to commit to a peaceful transition of power (building on his similar statements before the 2016 election, that he would only accept the 2016 election results if he wins). There's nothing comparable from Biden, who is trying to remain in office by winning the 2024 election.
Here is Glenn Greenwald on the whole "Trump Colluded with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election" propaganda campaign.
https://rumble.com/v4azhqc-system-update-show-222.html
"fake electors, bullying local election officials to declare him the winner, and pressuring Pence to invalidate EC votes" were legaly an d morally justified payback!
Whatever it takes for your side to win, that is what is permissible. Interesting how that is nothing like the "consent of the governed" that the Declaration of Independence stated was the source of the just powers of government.
Whatever it takes for your side to win, that is what is permissible.
The Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton) thought so when she came up with that scheme!
You said,
“fake electors, bullying local election officials to declare him the winner, and pressuring Pence to invalidate EC votes” were legaly an d morally justified payback!
If you think that getting payback by subverting the Constitution and ignoring the votes of the majority of Americans is legally and "morally justified," then you really don't think we should bother with elections and laws at all. Just do whatever feels like its right, and may those with the best and most Machiavellian plans win.
"...'fake electors, bullying local election officials to declare him the winner, and pressuring Pence to invalidate EC votes' were legally and morally justified payback!"
Breaking the law is never "legally justified payback". It's breaking the law.
It's the electoral version of vigilante justice. Only, add in the motivated reasoning of political ideology and partisanship, and you get to believe that you're just setting things right when there isn't objective evidence that leads to that belief.
Jan 6th was a "peaceful" (i.e. unarmed) protest.
I doubt that you will see anyone making that mistake a second time...
Sadly, taking *anyone* off the ballot -- for any reason, real or imagined, would be the end of elected government in this country.
Remember that only 30% of the populace supported the American Revolution, and at least 45% of the population supports Trump.
Sometimes one has to ignore the law for the better good of domestic harmony.
How is putting someone who is constitutionally ineligible would mean the end of elected government? If Obama tried to run would you allow him? Or a 30 yo, or a non-citizen?
Sure would. The Constitution doesn't say Obama can't run. He just can't be elected by the Electoral College. Trump doesn't even have that restriction; the Electoral College could elect him. If he was ineligible then the VP would serve until the disability was removed.
Not quite, the Constitution says Obama can't take office, not that he can't run or even be elected.
The same would happen in the case of an insurrectionist. Whether an "ineligible" person could appear on a ballot is a separate (albeit related) issue.
I hate the idea of taking anyone off the ballot - but I have to admit that it is pleasantly ironic that this is happening to Trump after his birther claims tried to keep Obama out.
It wasn't unarmed. That most of the implements used were ad hoc doesn't mean they weren't weapons at time of use.
Further, your position would lead to the absurd - though for you no doubt desirable - result that a group of citizens could storm the Capitol with impunity provided they were unarmed as it would be grossly unfair to let the police stop them because as we all know a large group of aggressive but unarmed citizens present no physical jeopardy to anyone at all ever in the entire history of the human race.
Not so. They peacefully smashed those windows to get in.
Windows are Federal property — there’s gotta be some law against breaking them.
But you completely misunderstood what I meant.
SRG2 -- you do know there are Federal crimes other than Insurrection -- don't you?
Not much red meat in vandalism, though.
Dr Ed 2 - you do know that incompetence is not a defence to a criminal charge - don't you?
Jan 6th was a “peaceful” (i.e. unarmed) protest.
Put this one up on the list of candidates for dumbest comment of the year - all blogs.
How about mostly peaceful and mostly unarmed?
Nationwide, Jan 06 was mostly peaceful.
Localized the the Capitol round about 2pm, which is what *everybody means when they say Jan 06* very much no.
You know, sometimes progressives like Sarcastr0 actually get the big things right. Somewhat more often than a broken clock, but not much.
When Sarcastr0 wrote, Nationwide, Jan 06 was mostly peaceful., he was correct. On January 6th, 347MM people (out of ~350MM in the US) woke up that day, said their prayers and ate their Wheaties, went to work and school, came home, hugged their kids, and went to bed. Nothing happened. This is roughly 99% of the US population. That is, in fact, what happened on January 6, 2021 in the United States for pretty much everyone in the country; pretty much nothing.
Inside Washington DC, however, in an area less than 10sq miles, a riot occurred. (Ok, ok - a heavily armed insurrection happened that day that threatened all life in the US as we know it!). An official Congressional proceeding, counting electoral votes, was delayed as a result. The electoral votes were counted less than 8 hours later when the official Congressional proceeding resumed, after the
heavily armed insurrection was miraculously suppressedrioters left the Capitol area, encouraged to do so by POTUS Trump (Yes, the Chief Insurrectionizer himself told the heavily armed rioters cum insurrectionists to go home). The total number of people directly affected by this insurrection calamity is maybe 2MM, give or take, or less than 1% of the US population. For these 2MM people, life has never been the same. No, they re-live the horror of the insurrection! on a daily basis. One empathizes. Not that this matters, but 10sq mi represents less than 0.0001% of the US landmass. The insurrectionists never did control very much of the US during theirriotheavily armed insurrection.Glad Sarcastr0 cleared up the confusion. Nationwide, Jan 06 was mostly peaceful. He was right. 🙂
The localized events at the Capitol were an attempt to steal an election which impacts the entire nation and the institution of democracy.
Also, it took Trump hours to call off the mob. Apparently he was watching on TV, likely rooting for the mob.
Listen Josh R, it was a heavily armed insurrection! Ok, maybe you object to the term heavily armed. Still, it was an armed insurrection, right? And the country, heck, our very American way of life was at stake because of that
riotarmed insurrection. We all saw the same thing. Bring charges. It is a slam dunk.May I suggest bringing those federal insurrection charges in the DC district, to assure the best potential unbiased jury pool. An acceptable alternative to an unbiased DC jury could be an equally unbiased jury in Manhattan or Baltimore (in extremis).
Josh R...We all saw the same thing. Yet here we are. 🙂
No, it was exactly what it was. You have to keep making up stuff that it wasn't in order to obscure what it actually was, and to downplay the fact that Trump and his supporters wanted to steal the election, and let's be clear, anyone who votes for him now *is okay with that.*
You must have substantial investments in straw.
Bring the charges.
You have imputed to me the belief that Jan 6 was an insurrection. But, I made no such argument. Hence, the straw man.
Threatening violence and even assassination is not peaceful.
Entering a building after other have smashed windows and doors to get in, and beaten police trying to stop them, is not peaceful.
It's the CNN standard for peaceful: https://www.newsweek.com/cnn-mocked-calling-kenosha-riots-fiery-mostly-peaceful-protests-1527997
Thank you - I thought the reference was obvious, but it can never be too obvious for some people.
If you're going to violently wage war on the rest of us if you don't get your way, we're under no obligation to treat you and your leader as legitimate participants in the electoral process. That's the whole point of this. You don't get to play heads I win, tails you lose. If you won't respect losing the election, the rest of us have no obligation to respect you "winning" it. Either you play by the rules of the game or you get kicked out of it. And the most basic rule of the game is you don't get to violently overthrow the result.
I personally have no problem whatsoever with you not respecting Dr. Ed 2 winning the election.
Beyond that, the royal "you" lowest-common-denominator composites are really getting tiresome.
"violently wage war on the rest of us "
don't be such a drama queen
Don,
Dr. Ed and others, including Brett, have threatened violence if Trump is disqualified. Depending on how widespread that attitude is among Trump supporters, it might indeed amount to "waging war."
Now, I very much doubt it would come anywhere close - probably some rhetoric and some threats coupled with some vandalism - maybe a few violent incidents. Still, however unrealistic, they are, at this point threatening civil war.
“I very much doubt it would come anywhere close” I’m with you on that. There will be not civil war whether Trump is disqualified now or loses in November. In that latter instance, I also have full confidence in President Biden being able to assure that there is no attempt to prevent the certification of the 2024 election.
Do you genuinely not understand the difference between threatening and predicting? Or is that just a pose?
I think the Biden administration would LIKE it if the right responded to Trump being disqualified with violence. Peace constrains them, violence gives them an excuse to let their inner authoritarian out. They LOVED January 6th, it gave them an excuse to do so much.
There's no difference. You're using the prospect of future violence to get your way.
'Peace constrains them'
They're letting Trump's cases go through the courts. They've never threatened or promised or predicted violence.
When the prediction is about you and your allies are likely to do, it's a threat.
"I'm a peaceful guy myself, but if you don't do what I want my buddies over there might get pissed, and then who knows what they'll do."
A lot of your "predictions" sound like that. I mean, after all, you've justified political violence on the flimsiest of bases - a Supreme Court ruling you dislike, for example, so it's hard to think you wouldn't participate, as a cheerleader if nothing else.
That's very plainly what he said that I was responding to.
And what did the Dems do during the summer of 2020?
THEY are the ones not playing by the rules...
The only guns in the Maidan Revolution belonged to the Ukrainian government.
There's nothing about "insurrection" which requires firearms.
"Maidan Revolution "
You are referring the US-promoted regime change that led to the Russia - Ukraine War.
Thanks for providing the RT/Sputnik view.
Thanks for being so unaware of America's covert wars on governments that we don't like. They have cost us trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives. Not to mention hundreds of thousands of lives in the countries we have targeted.
You can't just say 'this is the sort of thing the CIA has done therefore the CIA has done this.'
Unless you have specific evidence, it's a conspiracy theory.
Look it up - there's more than enough out there, including direct statements by Victoria "fuck the EU" Nuland. There are real arguments about exactly how much influence the US had and whether or not it was a good policy, but there is no doubt at all that the regime change was promoted by the US.
From wiki: In December 2013, US Republican senator John McCain and Democratic senator Chris Murphy visited Yatsenyuk and Tyahnybok and later addressed the crowds at Maidan, saying "Ukraine will make Europe better and Europe will make Ukraine better, we are here to support your just cause, the sovereign right of Ukraine to determine its own destiny freely and independently". Speaking to CNN the same day, McCain said: "What we're trying to do is try to bring about a peaceful transition here, that would stop the violence and give the Ukrainian people what they unfortunately have not had [...] This is a grassroots revolution here – it's been peaceful except when the government tried to crack down on them"
Also, Don seems to have a more specific definition of promote, invoking: "America’s covert wars."
Look it up indeed. Victoria Nuland was recorded discussing the U.S. views of the various potential leaders of Ukraine. She was not recorded discussing the U.S. undertaking regime change in Ukraine. Nothing in the recording says that the U.S. was behind the protests or was doing anything.
Of course the US "promoted" regime change in Ukraine. It was in the US' interests for the Russian puppet to go back to Russia and for Ukraine to be free to look West towards Europe. Why would the self-proclaimed "beacon of democracy" remain neutral in such a situation or in some way discourage Ukrainians from taking back their government?
Russia frankly believes that allowing Ukrainians to decide the future of Ukraine is not acceptable (ditto for any other country nearby), and therefore began its doomed invasion.
Dammit Russia was supposed to have a free hand!
In Oregon, judges appointed by Democrats ruled based on a dubious interpretation of a voter initiative that Republicans can't run for another term.
A wise man in the 1930s realized that a particular group was a menace to Western man, and had to be neutralized. Unfortunately, he failed. Today, they pull the puppet strings in favor of evil initiatives like transgenderism, the 1/6 lie, abortion, and measures like took place in Oregon.
6MWE.
Dude if you are going to be a Hitler fanboy, at least get you damn history right. Hitler wanted to get rid of the Jews in the 20s.
The Village of JewHateistan was looking for their stunod; I found him! QuizMeBob
Why do you think they support Trump?
Let's see. Should I sell out the Nazis or attack Trump?
GoooooOOOOOOOO NAZIS!!!
Oh, bullshit.
The ballot title of that measure:
"Amends Constitution: Legislators with ten unexcused absences from floor sessions disqualified from holding next term of office"
The text added to the state constitution read, "Failure to attend, without permission or excuse, ten or more legislative floor sessions called to transact business during a regular or special legislative session shall be deemed disorderly behavior and shall disqualify the member from holding office as a Senator or Representative for the term following the election after the member’s current term is completed."
Something about that unclear to you?
You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.
Does the ballot title form part of the Oregon Constitution ?
The actual text seems pretty clear :
"...shall disqualify the member from holding office as a Senator or Representative for the term following the election after the member’s current term is completed.”
Algorithm :
1. identify when the member's current term (Term A) expires
2. identify the election after that expiry
3. identify the term following that election (Term B)
4. disqualify the member from holding office for that term (Term B)
The wrinkle, of course, is that the election for the term immediately following Term A takes place BEFORE the end of the current term. (Just like federal elections.)
Thus the first election after the expiry of the member's current term is actually several years after the expiry of that term, and so Term B is not the term immediately following Term A, but the term after that one.
This is all very clear, but the Oregon Supreme Court seems to have concluded that the ballot title which fails to describe correctly the effect of the actual text, should rule the text.
I wonder who approved the ballot title.
Legal schmegal. It would be voter suppression of an unprecedented scale. It could bring consequences so big as to pose an existential threat to the federal government. Simple prudence ought to preclude an action so drastic against 50% (more or less) of the voting public. Remember that in The Declaration, we said that the right of the people to overthrow government is a natural human right. No law, no King George, no court, can take that away.
In 2016, I predicted that whichever side lost the 2020 election would not accept the defeat. Now I predict the same for the 2024 election. Public support for American Democracy is in peril. It's time to wake up and be cautious and to stop playing with fire.
It is not voter suppression to disqualify someone who is ineligible to hold office.
It is voter suppression to use legal shimsham to disqualify the most popular candidate for such a flimsy transparent excuse. Of course the Dems don't see it as flimsy and transparent -- but half the country does.
Excuse me, but Trump is not going to be disqualified unless SCOTUS says so.
A court with six conservative Justices, three of them appointed by Trump, is not going to disqualify Trump on the basis of "legal shimsham."
To claim otherwise is to ignore reality out of rage, or blind loyalty, or something.
"Trump is not going to be disqualified unless SCOTUS says so."
To be pragmatic, that is the point to insist on. I hope that the Court will come to a clear decision quickly.
Agree = SCOTUS having clear decision
Hoping this essentially gets sent back to square 1; bring a case through the Federal Courts on insurrection against POTUS Trump. States do not get to decide arbitrarily that one is an insurrectionist and then bump candidates for federal office off the state ballot.
To me that pragmatic type of ruling effectively ends the matter. Because The People can decide the matter for themselves at the ballot box this November. I think our experience with abortion, post-Dobbs, is instructive. Justice Alito was correct, the American people are perfectly capable of deciding what abortion restrictions they want to live with. And they are.
I don't think the politicians or the judges can solve this political problem. There are times when The People must resolve issues themselves, and the Founders thoughtfully gave us a means to do so.
Just remember what ReaderY notes below: As Stalin said, it doesn’t really matter who gets to vote. What matters is who gets to count the votes. That may well decide who the next president is.
The People can decide the matter for themselves at the ballot box this November.
I think you misunderstood the OP.
I think our experience with abortion, post-Dobbs, is instructive. Justice Alito was correct, the American people are perfectly capable of deciding what abortion restrictions they want to live with. And they are.
Yes, the American people are capable of that. But there two problems with that.
The first is whether the American people should be making that decision at all, or whether we are talking about something that should be a right.
If you think so - and I don't - then the second is whether the American political system can accurately reflect the opinion of the people. There seem to be a number of situations where it doesn't come close.
I understand the OP perfectly. I think I understand people like you perfectly. They (OP, and people like them) are looking for undemocratic means to remove POTUS Trump from the ballot. You are A-Ok with that.
I wanted to be sure I have this right; I do.
You don't support the right of the American people to make the decision themselves. Not for abortion, and not for choosing their POTUS. Listen, I just want to thank people like you and Professor Baude for relieving me of the tremendous burden of having to think for myself. Wow, I sure am glad people like you are around to make these decisions for us. Whew! I was worried for a minute that I would actually have to decide who to vote for.
Look, I still have no idea who the Libertarian candidate for POTUS will be. Perhaps you would like to remove that candidate from the ballot too. I am sure there is some WrongThink that precludes a Libertarian being elected.
The best thing that could happen is a 9-0 decision that forces the process we have to be followed; no shortcuts.
Did you even read the post? The American people decided, when they ratified the constitution, to limit what decisions the people could make. They added some more limits 150 years ago.
So if you care more about Trump than the constitution, that’s your lookout. But you could at least have the self respect to be embarrassed about it.
Whew! Nas is also here to tell us who we can vote for. Man, I never thought that there were soooo many helpful people out there to relieve us from the burden of actually having to choose candidates for ourselves.
And then, perish the thought, actually voting. Nah, no need for a vote. Easier to just remove candidates from ballots by undemocratic means.
Easier to read and understand the original post, since they address that point directly and you haven't engaged with their argument.
Let's just watch how lightning-fast XY changes his tune when Texas moves to delist Biden.
We all know where your loyalties lie, XY. Not with the Constitution. Not with the voter. Not with America. They're wedged right up inside Trump's rectum.
Of course the Republicans on the Supreme Court will side with Trump. Problem is that all of the legal arguments for Trump are very weak.
I am glad that you are a mind reader and are convinced that EVERY judge is just a political hack.
Every judge on the left is basically just a political hack. Sometimes you get surprises, the Souters, Roberts and Luttigs of the world.
But has a liberal judge ever once ruled for the 2nd Amendment? Has a liberal judge ever ruled that the 14th Amendment doesn't protect the right of a man to bust inside his butt buddy?
The Constitution isn't "legal shimsham."
It is not half the country. But it is the worthless, bigoted, gullible, ignorant part.
Carry on, right-wing rubes. But only so far as your betters permit. Not a step beyond.
If you don't believe in the Constitution anymore, including 14/3, and you don't believe in the practical availability of the amendment process to fix it, then yup, you should do a revolution. Just do it already! We're not going to stop honoring the Constitution just because you keep threatening us.
Your side stop honoring the Constitution when you decided that the 2nd Amendment only protects a collective right and when you decided that the Due Process Clause protects the right of a fairy like the Rev. Kirkland to ejaculate deep into another man's anus and to marry him.
I'm on the side of the Constitution: 1st, 2nd and 14th Amendments included.
You can't honestly respect the Constitution if you pick and choose which provisions you champion and which you "terminate".
There's no "respect" when you just make shit up about what the Constitution means and when your interpretations perfectly match your policy preferences.
Your comments are garbage. And trying to shock people here with the gay sex bit as about as hack as it gets.
Just curious what you think my "policy preference" is on the 2nd Amendment?
"Legal schmegal. It would be voter suppression of an unprecedented scale."
So you came here unequipped to refute anything, and instead just scream the same stupid objections that the blog post just destroyed?
Bravo.
Well, at least he's addressing the argument made by the post, unlike most of what is above. Of course, by "addressing" I'm being charitable; the response is basically just insisting "Yes it is!" instead of any sort of logical or legal argument
Should I be expected to quote what Professor Baude wrote?
Claiming it would be 'voter suppression' is not meaningfully different than the 'undemocratic' cries. He should read the post.
American Democracy is a myth in theory and fact.
In theory, the US is a constitutional republic. The constitution sets the rules, including eligibility for President. If we don't follow the constitution, the American legal system has no ground to stand on.
In fact, the US is an oligarchy ruled by the a relatively small group of rich and well-connected, with some consideration to keep the masses occupied with bread and circuses.
Baude and Paulsen write as if requiring a narrow construction of a punitive law is some novel concept, but that is, of course, the rule of lenity, which has been around for at least 500 years in common law. If it is unclear or uncertain whether a punitive sanction applies to someone, then the law will err on the side of not applying it, and even many of the authors' fellow Trump-haters concede that Section 3's applicability to Trump is, at best, uncertain.
Disqualification from holding office under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is not punishment; it is a civil disability. The rule of lenity comes into play only when a criminal statute is ambiguous. That is not this case.
Doesn't matter -- really doesn't matter.
45% of the country simply don't care....
You are playing with fire here....
If your argument is that we should ignore the Constitution because a certain percentage of Americans don't like what it says, then I must object. Maybe you'd like it better in the UK where Parliament can do whatever it likes.
Grampa Ed, poster boy (er, poster senile-old-man) for the very point the OP makes.
If you don't like the Constitution, feel free to move to Russia.
I think the point is if the plan is to disenfranchise give or take half of the voting public, you aren't going to have it for very long anyways in the ensuing violence.
Step right up if you are anything other than an all-talk right-wing coward. Your betters will mow you down like the weeds you are.
Like in Vietnam?
What the Dems don't understand is that you can't forcibly repress half the population and still have a country they want to live in.
Nah, that's not what this looks like.
This looks like 'Obama the usurper,' and 'Death panels.' Right-wing keyboard warriors drawing a line in the sand and then sullenly ignoring it.
Surely, this time will be different. This time the Truckers will truly revolt!
Your threats are hollow. Your embrace of political violence still makes you a piece of shit, though.
The usual threat of violence if the Supreme Court doesn't rule your way...
I don't buy that it isn't punishment. People love to say things aren't punishment that they are clearly hoping will exact some retribution on someone.
It isn’t a punishment any more than winning two presidential elections has a constitutional punishment.
If it were a punishment, 14/3 would refer to "commuting the sentence" or "clemency," not "removing the disability."
A disability isn't a punishment. Quite the opposite, really.
Nah.
The two elections thing is not a punishment. The oath-breaking insurrectionist thing is a punishment.
How do we know ? Because the disqualification only applies to people who have previously done two things – break an oath, and insurrectionize.
And the two things are things that are thought to be either or both of :
(a) bad – morally (b) bad – socially
If winning two elections was regarded as a "bad thing", you would have a point. But in this case the disqualification is imposed on people for doing bad things. Even in kindergarten, the inhabitants know that’s a punishment.
Wow it’s kindof amazing to see how stupid of things you guys are willing to say in defense of your special best codependency.
If you get drunk or high, which is “bad socially,” you’re disqualified from driving. Is that a punishment? No. It doesn’t require due process, lenity, or a criminal conviction. You’re just not allowed to drive while intoxicated for safety reasons. Are you incapable of comprehending that?
If you fail the bar exam, you’re not allowed to practice law. Punishment? No.
If you yell at your kid, you may lose custody. Punishment? No.
There are lots and lots of cases when you make a bad choice that’s not even illegal, but it has consequences that aren’t punishments, they’re based on considerations like safety or interest-balancing. 14/3 is one of them.
Also, the Constitution uses terms like “punish,” “penalties,” and “conviction.” 14/3 doesn’t use any of those terms. It uses “disability,” which is used elsewhere in the constitution where in context it’s clearly not a punishment.
You’re just not allowed to drive while intoxicated for safety reasons.
And if you do so, you're subject to criminal sanction. Section 3 is not about banning people from office while they're trying to overthrow the government and then "we're good." It's about banning them from office afterwards.
If you fail the bar exam, you’re not allowed to practice law. Punishment? No.
Is failing the bar exam regarded as committing moral and social damage ? I didn't realise.
If you yell at your kid, you may lose custody. Punishment? No.
Obviously yes.
There are lots and lots of cases when you make a bad choice that’s not even illegal, but it has consequences that aren’t punishments, they’re based on considerations like safety or interest-balancing.
Most of the criminal law is based on considerations of safety or interest balancing, and the object of the exercise is to discourage you from doing things that offend those considerations, by threatening you with punishment if you do them.
And if you do so, you’re subject to criminal sanction.
Exactly. That's the punishment -- fines, license revocation, etc. if you do drive. Being disqualified from driving isn't the punishment.
The original Enforcement Act worked like that. It depended on the insurrectionist not to attempt to seek office, and if they did, they could be criminally charged for that. Governing While Insurrectionist, basically.
It doesn't matter whether the disqualification is temporary or permanent. You're just fishing around for distinctions to argue to nowhere. Yes, alcohol and drugs wear off. Being an insurrectionist is forever. (The lack of a statute of limitations on 14/3 is another sign, now that I think about it, that it's not a punishment. We typically don't punish behavior from the distant past.)
Is failing the bar exam regarded as committing moral and social damage?
Sure it is! Here's another one in the same vein. If you drop out of high school, you can't join the army. Punishment? No.
Obviously yes.
You're obviously unfamiliar with family court. Could you imagine if custody decisions were tried as criminal cases? That's not how it works. The best interest of the child controls, and if you yell at your kid, that gets taken into account. It's not a punishment, it's just a consequence.
Most of the criminal law is based on considerations of safety or interest balancing, and the object of the exercise is to discourage you from doing things that offend those considerations, by threatening you with punishment if you do them.
That's exactly right. And those punishments are generally fines and imprisonments. And we have an Insurrection Act for exactly that: deterring insurrection with fines and imprisonment.
It's super rare for a punishment to be connected to the specific goal that the criminal law is meant to advance. In fact that's generally considered barbaric and ineffective. We don't castrate rapists. We don't chop the hands off thieves. We don't force-impregnate abortion doctors. We use standard punishments to deter undesirable behavior.
It's totally plain that 14/3 wasn't intended to deter insurrectionists. The insurrection had already happened! There was nothing left to deter, hence nothing left to punish. It's simply a policy statement that we believe insurrectionists to be unqualified for office.
We may be talking at cross purposes. I am referring to the plain English meaning of "punishment" not the weird contortions lawyers and judges have constructed to pretend that certain kinds of punishment [plain English] are not "punishment" [legal crap.]
A punishment in plain English is a penalty meted out for some transgression. That includes execution for committing murder, and being sent to sit in the corner at kindergarten for pulling Daisy's hair.
Naturally, one expects different types of "due process" in different cases.
I'm tempted to just take this as a capitulation but I think it's worth pointing out that no, I get that we're talking about plain English punishments, and my point is that not all consequences are punishments, even for "bad" actions.
Not being qualified for the army is a consequence of dropping out of high school. Even in plain English, no one would say that's a punishment. For one thing, the policy isn't meant as a deterrent.
14/3 is the exact same. Not being qualified for office is a consequence of engaging in an insurrection. It's not intended as a deterrent. It's not a punishment, even a plain English punishment. We just don't want insurrectionists in office, the same way the army doesn't want high-school dropouts.
Sending Lee to sit in the corner is a punishment. It’s intended as a deterrent and serves no other real purpose.
Separating Lee and Daisy at playtime is a consequence of his pulling her hair, but not a punishment nor a deterrent. It’s disabling Lee from interacting with Daisy for policy reasons.
Separating Lee and Daisy at playtime is a consequence of his pulling her hair, but not a punishment nor a deterrent. It’s disabling Lee from interacting with Daisy for policy reasons.
If the separation is achieved by making Daisy sit in the classroom while Lee goes out to play with the other children, I agree that Daisy is not being punished. (Though she is being unfairly treated.)
But if it's Lee who has to sit in the classroom during playtime, and the reason for selecting Lee is not the toss of a coin, but because he pulled Daisy's hair, then that's punishment.
It may be a punishment imposed for the disablement purpose of preventing Lee from interacting with Daisy. But so what ?
That's why we send rapists to prison too. Indeed for all the chatter that is chattered about prison being about deterrence, rehabilitation, signalling etc, the only thing we know that it achieves for sure, is incapacitation (ie disablement.)
They can both still have playtime, they just aren’t allowed to play with each other is all.
If you call that a punishment, and you call high-school dropouts not being able to join the army a punishment, and not getting primary custody of your kids punishment, and having to take an Uber home from the bar punishment, then you just have a different definition of “punishment” than I do.
Lee,
"Insurrectionize" is creative, but I think "insurrect" would be better. To participate in a rebellion is to rebel, not to "rebellionize."
Still, credit for realizing (not "realizationizing") that it would be useful to have a verb describing the act of participating in an insurrection.
🙂
I rather think it is more akin to the matter of describing the act of removing a ferret from a Sumo wrestler's rear end.
One hopes that the need for such a verb will not justify the effort of inventing one.
I also want to commend the creativity = insurrectionize
🙂
Not on topic, but about the word: “radicalize.”
I don’t think the word even existed in popular discourse until the 2000s. Until then, and all through history, we had the problem of “radicals” (as implied by their adjudged radical beliefs). And then the intellectuals started using the word “radicalize” to suggest that being a radical is not a choice, but something that happens to a person. He became “radicalized.”
They introduce these words to make every behavior they don’t like sound like a treatable syndrome, and then, to introduce their inept solutions, which invariably include government programs (and “academic research” into the subject).
“We have an initiative to combat radicalization.”
This endless process of syndromization is yet one more sign of inept people trying to take charge of a world they don’t, and can’t, control.
Google Ngrams shows a pretty big spike starting in the 1960's (and uncommon usage as far back as they go).
The newest word the intelligentisia are in love with is: indicia. There is an indicia for WrongThink, another indicia for BadThink, still another indicia for NoThink.
Lee Moore gets the prize for: Insurrectionize. It is perfect. I think that there might be an indicia for insurrectionize pretty soon though. 😉
I never heard of Google Ngram Viewer before. See example of it here.
The word "radicalization" does indeed seem to have come into significant use in the sixties. The usage then began a swift climb around 2000 that's now quadruple the pre-2000 usage.
Very interesting, and thanks for the reference.
“Insurrectionize”…not just a word of our time, but an activity. (And you don’t even need an insurrection to do it.)
And I notice people keep alluding to indicia of civil war.
"Deferreting?"
""In the interests of safety, the match was not allowed to start until both wrestlers were deferreted."
There is a well developed body of Supreme Court caselaw about determining whether a government imposed sanction is punishment for a crime or instead is a civil penalty. Seven factors noted in Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez, 372 U.S. 144, 168-169 (1963), as a useful framework. These factors, which migrated into ex post facto case law from double jeopardy jurisprudence, have their earlier origins in cases under the Sixth and Eighth Amendments, as well as the Bill of Attainder and the Ex Post Facto Clauses. See id., at 168-169, and nn. 22-28. They are "neither exhaustive nor dispositive," United States v. Ward, 448 U.S. 242, 249 (1980), but are "useful guideposts," Hudson v. United States, 522 U.S. 93, 99 (1997). See, Smith v. Doe, 538 U.S. 84, 97 (2003).
Under Mendoza-Martinez, 372 U.S. at 168-169, and its progeny, a court considers: (1) "whether the sanction involves an affirmative disability or restraint"; (2) "whether it has historically been regarded as a punishment"; (3) "whether it comes into play only on a finding of scienter"; (4) "whether its operation will promote the traditional aims of punishment — retribution and deterrence"; (5) "whether the behavior to which it applies is already a crime"; (6) "whether an alternative purpose to which it may rationally be connected is assignable for it"; and (7) "whether it appears excessive in relation to the alternative purpose assigned." Hudson, 522 U.S. at 99-100.
Disqualification from office under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 carries no incarceration or fine -- the Colorado courts have not sent Donald Trump to prison or fined him. He is not disqualified from voting, serving on a jury, or possessing firearms.
The penalty here is essentially a form of occupational debarment. That form of disability has not historically been viewed as punishment. SCOTUS has long recognized that "revocation of a privilege voluntarily granted," such as a debarment, "is characteristically free of the punitive criminal element." Hudson, 522 U.S. at 104, quoting Helvering v. Mitchell, 303 U.S. 391, 399 and n.2 (1938). Debarment does not involve an "affirmative disability or restraint," as that term is normally understood. Hudson, at 104. It is "certainly nothing approaching the `infamous punishment' of imprisonment." Ibid., quoting Flemming v. Nestor, 363 U.S. 603, 617 (1960).
Nothing in the text of the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 requires any finding of scienter. That the conduct for which occupational debarment is imposed may also be criminal, that is insufficient to render the sanctions criminally punitive, as deterrence "may serve civil as well as criminal goals." Hudson, at 105, quoting United States v. Ursery, 518 U.S. 267, 292 (1996).
And even if disqualification were a punishment under this standard… which is isn’t… it wouldn’t matter! This standard applies to statutes and regulations, not constitutions. There are at least two places in the constitution where a punishment is imposed, even using words like “punish” and “convict,” and no criminal justice concepts such as lenity or beyond-a-reasonable-doubt attach to those punishments.
Constitutional punishments, of course, are presumptively constitutional. (Which, again, doesn’t even matter here since this isn’t a punishment.)
If § 3 disqualification were criminal punishment, that would be hugely significant, in that it could not then have been imposed ex post facto on ex-Confederates for conduct occurring prior to 1868. That would have defeated the raison d'être of that section of the Fourteenth Amendment.
And that's where I get back to pointing out the context: The winners of a war doing what they wanted to the losers.
It could be imposed ex post facto, it could be imposed on the basis of "I say so", it could be imposed even before there was a Section 3 to authorize it, because that's how the winners of a war treat the losers.
It was a pure exercise in Thucydides' "The strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must." There's no damned LEGAL precedent being appealed to here, nothing more sophisticated than "I won, you lost, sucks to be you!"
Well, you didn't win, we didn't lose, so don't start that shit. THAT is how I refute Baude's reasoning.
not guilty, I presume that had § 3 explicitly stated it applied punishment ex post facto, that would stand on a basis of equality with the constitutional bar, and require interpretation to harmonize and maximize the effectiveness of each conflicting provision.
Do you think I am mistaken?
If the Fourteenth Amendment said that any provision(s) thereof applied ex post facto, such application would create no issue --- it would apply ex post facto. That § 3 did not so declare means that it should be interpreted in harmony with pre-existing constitutional provisions. A newly enacted measure is presumed to modify pre-existing law only to the extent necessary to accomplish the purposes of the new law.
For example, the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applies to the states, but not to the federal government. That does not mean that a state office holder facing state disqualification proceedings under § 3 is entitled to due process under the Fourteenth Amendment, but a federal office holder facing federal disqualification proceedings under § 3 is not entitled to due process under the Fifth Amendment. Absurd results such as that are to be avoided.
Is your argument really that "having previously taken an oath [...] to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof" does not require scienter?
Is the Treason Clause legally null because it doesn't require scienter? What about the text of Title 18 U.S. Code section 2383, which does not include the any words like "knowingly" or "willfully"?
The text of § 3 does not require a finding of scienter in order to disqualify someone from holding office. It does not use such modifiers as intentionally, willfully, knowingly, purposefully, etc.
There is no controversy as to whether penalties imposed pursuant to statutes such as 18 U.S.C. § 2381 (treason) or § 2383 (insurrection or rebellion) are criminal in nature rather than civil.
The text also doesn't require a finding of insurrection in the first place. You're splitting stupid hairs.
How can someone be prevented from holding an office under Section 3 if there's no "finding" of insurrection?
Wait, what? I mean, it doesn't have the word "knowingly" explicitly included there, but § 3 requires that one have engaged in insurrection or rebellion. That inherently carries with it a scienter requirement; one can't negligently engage in insurrection.
Esper, Section 3 is without retributive intent. It is instead an indispensable support for the originalist notion that the joint popular sovereign—termed in the Constitution, "We the People"—enjoys uncontrollable power over government. To exercise power on that basis, the People get to bestow the gift of office at pleasure, without constraint, on whomever they choose.
If it is the People's pleasure to exclude any class of persons at all, that is their unchallengeable prerogative. Even if someone thinks mistakenly that such unqualified discretion is too great, there can be no logic to insist that any rival theory would legitimately bestow access to office on a member of the class, "insurrectionists."
Stephen, it is entirely idiotic to say that a provision that is being interpreted to say that even if We the People choose a person to be our President, 9 unelected justices or some secretary of states can deny us our choice is dictated by popular sovereignty.
You truly say the wackiest things of any regular commenter here.
Under the Constitution.
"We the People" can do whatever the fuck they want if they write a new Constitution.
I guess that's why this one has to be "terminated", eh?
Your comment implies that the Constitution constrains the sovereign which decreed it. That is not the case, and was not the original understanding. See the explanation of founder James Wilson quoted in my comment below.
Esper, think it over. There is a reason to conduct elections under pre-determined rules, and another reason to make administration of elections a merely ministerial function, carried out by government officials who have been sworn to uphold the Constitution.
The nation's joint popular sovereign, termed, "We the People," acting as a whole, decreed election rules for government to follow. During an ongoing election campaign, no subset of that joint popular sovereignty may logically or wisely demand new election rules contrary to the ones already in effect.
In this case, a change to the rules would require a constitutional amendment and super-majority ratification. It is absurd to suggest that a faction among the joint sovereignty is somehow empowered to require government officials to act against their oaths, to ignore the existing rules, and to enforce new ones.
All that we can understand before considering the possibility, perhaps a likelihood, that the faction making new rule demands are a minority among the joint sovereignty. You seem to conjecture that some threat to public order will result if that faction is frustrated in its demand for new rules. You seem to give no consideration that a rival faction relies on the existing rules. Should you not consider that the rival faction could be comparably, and more justifiably, aggrieved by an untoward change?
And for some reason which challenges understanding, you give no apparent consideration to the publicly evident fact that the candidate which new rules are intended to convenience has already violated his own constitutional oath, and attempted an actual overthrow of American constitutionalism. You fail to note irrefutable evidence from history showing that the existing rule in question, the one you want changed, was enacted to thwart that very contingency.
"not punishment; it is a civil disability."
ng,
Is it plausible that SCOTUS rule otherwise and declare that therefore a determination of guilt must be beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of peers?
I suspect you'll tell me to wait two weeks to find out, but I am interested in your opinion
It is a punishment, but not a criminal penalty.
The SEC, to take one example, has extensive enforcement powers, often involving severe penalties, which do not generally require a criminal conviction to be imposed.
Yes, which is unconstitutional. No penalty of any type should be allowed to be levied without a conviction by a jury. And not a jury overseen by Lewis Kaplan or Arthur Engoron.
davard, do you think this 'no penalty of any type without a conviction by a jury' principle was intended by the Founders of our constitution?
Yes, I do think that. I don't think they intended a huge regulatory state where numerous alphabet soup agencies could determine punishments that affect livelihood and other rights.
I get that would be the case for a civil penalty.
“Is it plausible that SCOTUS rule otherwise and declare that therefore a determination of guilt must be beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of peers?”
The Supreme Court will do what it chooses to do, including the possibility of reaching a foreordained result and constructing a façade of logic to support it. See, e.g., Bush v. Gore,531 U.S. 98 (2000). IMO, however, requiring a criminal conviction of insurrection is not plausible. There are numerous distinctions between disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 and disqualification as a criminal penalty under a federal statute such as 18 U.S.C. § 2383. I have explained these distinctions on multiple threads.
Under § 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment, Congress has the authority to make criminal conviction a condition precedent for application of § 3, but Congress has not done so.
Thank you for your answer.
Can it?
Leaving aside for the moment the fact that laws can be enacted by bare majorities in Congress, can Congress decide to "enforce" Section 3 by passing a law pursuant to Section 5 saying that oath-breaking insurrectionists may hold federal office?
Would such legislation be "appropriate"?
No, a statute passed that directly contradicts the constitution would be ruled unenforceable by the courts. I would think. Section 5 doesn't give Congress the power to undo the amendment, but rather to enforce it as written.
Accordingly, Congress couldn't remove, under Section 5, Section 3's requirement that only a 2/3 majority of Congress can remove the disability from those persons who have "engaged in insurrection".
How can Congress then significantly dilute Section 3 to require a criminal conviction? Given how difficult it is to convict anyone under the criminal insurrection statute, that would effectively "terminate" Section 3 as a practical matter.
Except that the law is not unclear.
If it were as clear as you think, there wouldn't be so much argument about it.
The arguments against 14/3 are weak and partisan.
But especially this argument.
There's a lot of argument because it involves Donald Trump. There hasn't been a single post or discussion here about keeping Rep. Dean Phillips off the Presidential ballot in a number of states, for example.
I agree that to the extent that the provision is ambiguous, which it obviously is, Baude overtstaes his case. But generally, appealing to political values to determine the meaning of a legal text is not a good idea.
However, I would put a slightly different slant on the "appeal to democracy" - because my point is not democratic.
There is a line of argument on the "Officer" point which goes - "don't be silly, what possible reason could there have been for leaving the President (and VP) off the disqualify list - they're the two most important people in the land !"
And one answer is - all the other positions disqualified are ones for which in the context of the aftermath of the civil war there was a real prospect of an oath breaking insurrectionist getting elected. President - not so much.
So - same reason as why Harry Reid didn't nuke the filibuster for SCOTUS when he nuked it for all other nominees. Not necessary to cross that bridge at that time.
Was there a reasonable prospect that an insurrectionist oath breaker would capture a state or local office in a northern state? Those offices are clearly covered by the amendment.
But strangely, I can think of some different reasons why they might not have wanted to write an constitutional amendment that explicitly applied to some states and not others.
Such as :
1. it looks bad and 2. it sets an alarming precedent and 3…..it therefore makes it harder to get it ratified
Lee Moore, if you read the two historians' amicus briefs you will discover there was real concern among Republican leaders post-Civil War that Jefferson Davis would become the presidential candidate of the Democratic Party, and possibly win the presidency.
This is the fallacy of the excluded middle. There are arguments that Section 3 doesn't apply to the President (the one office Americans actually care about) and/or that it should be construed very narrowly (say only to civil war style events or only after criminal convictions). These constructions will make Section 3 more compatible with democracy.
Fundamentally it isn't an accident that anti-Trump conservatives like Baude and Paulsen are driving this, because they have utterly failed at persuading their own political faction to support their candidates. So of course they would benefit if the unelected courts swoop in as a deus ex machina to give their tiny minority faction a spot on the ballot, saving them the pain of having to vote for the hated Joe Biden.
But allowing a tiny minority whose arguments do not even persuade their own political cohorts to potentially win an election by disqualifying the candidate the public wants is indeed anti-democratic, and Baude and Paulsen should own this.
I think they owned it's anti-democratic:
That's the case if we judge alternatives based on how anti-democratic they are. But Baude/Paulsen outright reject that standard of judgment. So, I'm not seeing a fallacy from their perspective.
I think they should say they are opposed to democracy. People don't like to admit that.
I think we can be 100% sure that SCOTUS isn't going to say that 14/3 means Trump is unqualified, but for the sake of democracy, we're going to ignore that part of the Constitution.
The Constitution contains a bazillion constraints on democracy, and you don't have to "admit being opposed to democracy" in order to respect them.
"I think we can be 100% sure"
I hope that you are not correct, but I suspect that you are.
.
Unless you have been channeling the trolls from this blog, we all know you are well aware you stated a straw man.
It is no straw man. Baude and Paulsen represent a faction that has, what, 20 percent support? But if they can kick a candidate off the ballot, their faction might get to control the presidency.
That's many things, but it's definitely anti-democratic.
It is a straw man in the sense that it has nothing to do with the arguments they are actually making. It may or may not be true, but it is hardly a refutation of their substantive argument.
The claim that Baude/Paulsen "are opposed to democracy (*) does not follow from their argument that removing from the ballot a person who is unqualified under 14.3 is justifiably anti-democratic.
(*) This claim is far, far, more broad then their limited anti-democratic argument. I would bet the farm they go nowhere near that far.
There are stupid arguments it doesn't apply to the President or the presidency. The Amars dealt with the idiotic, partisan hand-waving about it taking a civil war to qualify, too.
The problem with the anti-democratic argument is that its a policy argument, not a legal argument.
You might as well argue that as soon as a presidents approval rating goes underwater that its anti democratic not to have a new election.
Its anti democratic not to allow Schwarzenegger to run for president.
Its anti Democratic not to allow Obama or W. Bush not to have a third term.
Follow the law as its written, even if Trump is disqualified, which I don't think he will be, then Congress can fix it if they they think its antidemocratic.
One might argue that we already have POTUS Obama's third term, considering the cadre of advisors surrounding POTUS Biden, who has obvious cognitive challenges, and their policies.
I am actually shocked at the rationale(s) I am reading for an anti-democratic solution to a political problem.
How about: allowing each individual state to reject candidates as it sees fit, based on its own idiosyncratic interpretation of the constitution, combined with its own agenda for how the national election will turn out, is instantly chaotic, and utterly destructive to the form of government we have. Undemocratic. More like Soviet.
Call that political if you like. But the SC is responsible to not go there.
If the SC were to simply bless what Colorado has done, between the ruling and November, no fewer than 40 states will have removed either Trump or Biden from the ballot in their state.
They can't remove Biden. He did not engage in an attempted coup or insurrection.
Facts matter.
Really???
Who says Trump did?!?
The trial judge in Colorado who held a five day hearing on the issue. A hearing in which Trump was represented.
If Trump seems to have engaged insurrection, the exact same way of thinking will yield Biden having engaged in insurrection.
Focus on the goal. Focus intensely. We can get there. It's that important.
Yep. Once the door is opened it's real hard to shut and when it is made incredibly easy to declare someone guilty of insurrection that will ultimately be used by both sides. That is what those pushing for Trump's disqualification by these standards don't want to accept. They believe that it will be a one time thing and end there. They are wrong.
You're effectively admitting that you will dishonestly apply the Constitution, simply because it has been applied against you.
This is unsurprising.
No. What I am saying is that creating a precedent such as this will be used. Tell me do you think Texas believes the border situation us an invasion? They say they do and are taking actions based on that. So if they believe it is an invasion and that Biden and his Maladministration are abetting it what is dishonest about applying the disqualification to Biden or other members of his administration? Once you set a precedent you better be prepared for it to be used in ways you don't like.
You guys always say the same thing: If they do it, you'll do it.
Which just proves that you have no principles of your own. So why, in the absence of such provocation, would you feel obliged to uphold principles you don't actually have in the first place?
If it becomes the law why shouldn't Republicans use it against Democrats who meet the same standards? Why should they unilaterally disarm?
It is your side showing no principles by saying only one side should be able to do it. If you don't want the opposition to have the ability to do something when they have the power to do so your side should not have that power either.
CountmontyC, nobody should have power to bring groundless charges, or to baselessly inflict civil disbarments. But that is not what is happening in Trump's case.
If, on the other hand, a Democratic Party officeholder did what Trump did, you would not find much objection among left-wingers to hold the culprit responsible.
Folks who try to play your tit-for-tat game irresponsibly will come a cropper legally, one way or another. Maybe oath breaking. Maybe depriving others of civil rights under color of law. Maybe something else. But Americans will not let your run-wild retaliation fantasy rule this nation.
Mr. Lathrop Kamala supported a bail fund to aid rioters during 2020, Maxine Waters encouraged harassment of Trump officials and as in my example that Texas has declared that the situation at the border is an invasion and it can be argued that Biden and members of his Maladministration have aided that invasion.
Your side wants a standard that makes it easy to disqualify a candidate you don't like but using that same standard against Democrats is somehow baseless? Fuck that. The standard either should apply to both sides or neither side. Anything else is fascist.
Biden didn't assemble a mob and send them to attack Congress in an attempt to overthrow the Constitution and make himself an unelected dictator.
Words mean things.
The precedent that would be set is that a state could disqualify a candidate with a simple civil trial. Texas is already calling the border situation an invasion. All it would take according to this precedent is declare that Biden and other Democrats have aided in that invasion and they are disqualified. And it won't stop with Biden or Trump as both sides will find reasons to disqualify the other side's candidates. This would not be a one time thing for either side.
Civil litigation decides ballot access cases all the time, how else do you think that would work?
If a state tries to kick candidates off the ballot for a completely bogus frivolous reasons without any constitutional basis, the federal courts should and would overturn that. Nobody's saying you can't appeal it like that. They should not do so for Trump because he actually is disqualified by the Constitution. Just like it would be wrong to kick Joe Biden off the 2024 ballot under the 22nd Amendment, but it would not be wrong to kick Barack Obama off the 2024 ballot under the 22nd Amendment.
Again the threat.
Look, if you're comfortable with "terminating" the Constitution, you're not going to "follow precedent" anyway, so why should anyone care about what you insist you're going to do? You're just going to do it.
No, Biden did not engage in an insurrection. However, section 3 does not end there. It goes on with, "or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." You could make an argument that Iran, for example, is an enemy of the U.S., and President Biden has given them aid and comfort (note: I am aware this is the same verbiage as in the definition of treason - but that says treason shall only consist of... It doesn't say every example is treason, while section 3 allows disqualification on any such example by the same logic we're applying to Trump.) If you don't like the Iran example, come up with another one - but this allows each state to judge Presidential actions and exclude from ballot access accordingly.
Please note, I think this is a terrible argument and it shouldn't fly. However, if I'm following the reasoning of applying it to Trump, I think it could equally apply to President Biden.
You can make bad faith arguments for anything.
That doesn't mean there are no good faith arguments.
The argument is nonsense.
Foreign policy is part of the President's job. That will often involve negotiations with foreign countries, including those hostile to the US.
If you're going to get anything out of those negotiations, you are going to have to make some sort of concessions as well. That's hardly giving "aid and comfort," it's working out a deal.
When a country sends its military forces (in this case IRCG) to support other forces in attacks against US military units and civilian ships, giving that country advance warning of retaliatory strikes against those other forces is aid and support of enemies.
Ultimately, it will be up to the Supreme Court to decide what the words "insurrection" and "aid and comfort" in the 14th Amendment mean. I really don't know where the line should be drawn in the latter case, but if the Supreme Court ends up characterising what Biden has done as disqualifying, then so be it.
And it's the "purple" states that would have removed Biden -- states with blue urban pimples in a sea of red.
If the SC were to simply bless what Colorado has done, between the ruling and November, no fewer than 40 states will have removed either Trump or Biden from the ballot in their state.
Do it already! None of the rest of us care. We don't have this deep emotional boner for Biden that makes us feel "psychologically abused" when he gets criticized like you do for Trump. I'd love for Biden to get disqualified. He's a crappy candidate. Trump is the crappiest of all.
Actual libertarians are totally used to this. Different candidates get on the ballot in different states. It's not a crisis of democracy in the slightest. It just means states are the alphas in our system... which you used to like, until one state had the gumption to say something nasty about your boyfriend.
"Do it already! "
Nothing I'd like better than an election this year with neither Trump nor Biden on the ballot.
Amen!
Because it is a federal constitutional issue. If Trump wins the issue will come up again. Better to resolve it now.
The way to ensure this comes up again -- and again and again -- is to let the anti-democratic left get their way here.
Ha ha Will Baude and Michael Paulsen - the anti-democratic left.
Each state *is* allowed to reject candidates as they see fit. There's no requirement that they even hold a Presidential election; the state could simply appoint Electoral College members and give them instructions on who to vote for.
They only like those theories when it works on behalf of authoritarian candidates.
States make their own decisions all the time about who to put on the ballot, including states coming to different conclusions about if a candidate is ineligible or if the state cares if they're eligible. This was never unacceptably chaotic when it's applied to anybody who isn't Donald Trump.
[citation required]
Why don't you just tell everyone here what we already know:
You've never even read Article II.
Don't waste people's time with stupid bullshit directly refuted by the Constitution itself.
If there is any valid path through this muddle, it has to go through the SC first agreeing that Trump (or Biden) engaged in an insurrection.
It utterly cannot be that each state supplies its own criteria for making that decision, and then acts on the decision to affect the national election.
I agree.
Letting individual states decide this is a recipe for disaster.
A recipe prescribed by the Constitution. Sorry for the mixed metaphor.
Each state decides who gets to the be on the ballot for all other reasons, so why not this one? Other than you not liking the decisions some states have made, that is.
I've been assured that things like "where was Back Obama born" have to be decided by deferring to the state of Hawaii's birth certificate, under the Full Faith and Credit clause. States were not allowed to decide for themselves that Obama was born outside the US.
OK, what's the parallel "full faith and credit" argument here for 14.3? (Or parallel rooted in some similar clause.)
A federal court ruling on the question. Or conviction by the Senate following impeachment that disqualifies the person.
This is an interpretation or application of the federal constitution. State courts don't have subject matter jurisdiction over the question.
OK, TIL that clause mentions judicial proceedings, not just things like birth certificates and marriage licenses. (There's no simple state document like that involved here, so I thought you were entirely off base. I was wrong!)
So if one state court found that "by preponderance of evidence" was met, maybe you're right another state would have to respect that. (Though another state whose election law requires "clear and convincing evidence" of disqualifications might still be able to revisit that separate legal question.)
At least that's what it looks like to my amateur googling. I respect your point on that though, and now I have a serious question to look into.
Support for your idea: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/full_faith_and_credit
I don't right now see any validity to your point about jurisdiction though.
Even in your own example, states can have election law that keeps someone who's not a natural born citizen off the ballot. There's no question of them not having jurisdiction to decide that, even though it's a federal qualification.
A state might not be able to treat another state's birth certificate as invalid, while deciding the question.[1] But states still get to have court proceedings considering that question, if they have state law under which qualifications can be considered.
[1] Disclaimer: I don't know much about the procedural history of the Court proceedings on Obama's certificate, and whether that's actually a correct description of what happened.
Whether Trump is disqualified by Section 3 is a federal question just about everybody agrees should be decided by the Supreme Court. Whether state laws require candidates to be eligible to be on the ballot is, as it always has been, up to the states. Some states will let 27 year olds or naturalized citizens on the ballot, others don't.
Baude and Paulson don't agree. They think any
Local or state judge, officer, or bureaucrat can and should make their own determination and enforce it to the best of their ability.
No they don’t think that.
Or else you are using ‘best of their ability’ to pretend they wrote something with a scope vastly stronger than they did.
They expect and embrace Supreme Court review.
Here's what they said:
"Its disqualification, where triggered, just is.
It follows that Section Three’s disqualification may and should be followed and carried out by all whose duties are affected by it. In many cases, Section Three will give rise to justiciable controversies in the courts. In others it will be enforceable by state and federal officials. But no prior judicial decision, and no implementing legislation, is required for Section Three to be carried out by officials sworn to uphold the Constitution whose duties present the occasion for applying Section Three’s commands. Section Three is ready for use."
Their point is Section 3, like anything else in the Constitution, is directly binding on anybody presented with a question governed by it. That doesn’t mean other laws aren’t relevant in deciding who actually is faced with such a question.
The First Amendment is binding on any state or federal official whose exercise of their powers is affected by it. That doesn’t mean a random county clerk somewhere gets to issue injunctions against the governor to enforce the First Amendment. That’s not their job, they have no such power. Likewise, whether a secretary of state or the state courts or whatever election law commission has to answer “Is this candidate eligible?” depends on if the answer matters to carrying out the powers of their offices. If the answer is it simply doesn’t matter, state law lets ineligible candidates on the ballot anyway, then there’s no violation of Section 3 in that. Or likewise if the law says, for example, it’s up to the courts but the secretary of state doesn’t get to decide, or however that’s structured and applied in election law cases all the time. It would only be a violation of Section 3 if the law calls on them to make that determination and they instead refuse to follow Section 3. But it doesn’t call on anybody to exercise powers they don’t have.
First of all you are confusing two issues, the ideal way and what is happening now.
Dwshelf said: "It utterly cannot be that each state supplies its own criteria for making that decision, and then acts on the decision to affect the national election."
Of course the Supreme Court can step in and sweep away all the contradictory decisions and set a standard. But they don't have to, just like there about 50 different ID requirements for voting, and 50 different schemes for reappointment.
Right now we've had rulings from half dozen states that are all over the map, Baude and Paulsen say that's ok. They also say the Supreme Court can step in and set a standard.
I think Congress has already spoken and a conviction for insurrection is required for disqualification, unless Congress changes the law again which is their right to do so.
Would such a law have to have been passed by 2/3 of Congress?
No, section 5 doesn't require 2/3s, however once someone is disqualified for office using Congress's legislated process then it takes 2/3s to.remove the disqualification.
"No, section 5 doesn’t require 2/3s, however once someone is disqualified for office using Congress’s legislated process then it takes 2/3s to.remove the disqualification."
If that is so, why did Congress in 1872 vote to remove disabilities "from all persons whomsoever," subject to specified exceptions, including officials whose disqualifications had not theretofore been litigated?
Because the true meaning of the 14th Amendment had been lost through the mists of time?
Could you quote the congressionally-passed words that you think state or imply, "a conviction is required for disqualification"?
§2383. Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
Obviously a statue that includes 10 years in prison requires a conviction to impose any of the penalties.
I'm curious: By omitting from §2383 the part of Section 3 prohibiting insurrectionists holding _state_ offices, did Congress thereby effectively "delete" part of Section 3? If so, could they also delete other parts of Section 3 they chose not to enforce? Or even the whole of Section 3, by not legislating in that area at all?
Congress modifying the Constitution sounds a bit dodgy, so if §2383 is not an example of Congress "revising" the Constitution, would that mean the parts of Section 3 Congress did not codify are still valid law?
No, they didn't feel it needed Enforcement in a federal statute the way officers under the United States.
There is nothing in Section 5 that says Congress has to pass one statute that enforces all of the 14th amendment, or all of section 3. Nobody would ever make that argument about enforcing section 1.
I don't purport to know why Congress wrote the 1948 statute the way they did, although at the time communists were a much greater threat than confederates.
I very much appreciate the specificity.
So to be clear...
Before there was any legislation under 14.5 regarding 14.3, people were disqualified without criminal convictions (or legislative acts).
Right?
I have difficulty seeing in that quote a statement that the preexisting standard was being *changed* to "only with a criminal conviction", rather than criminal penalties being added.
I should add:
If something in the statute around that text says something like, "The sole enforcement mechanism for 14.3 shall be as stated in this statute", then I think you have a very strong argument. (Or if that's well-established in the principal of statutory construction you can point to.)
But I'm not yet understanding why you infer an implication like that.
Why not both?
What if each state supplies it's own criteria for making that decision, AND THEN the federal judiciary imposes a standard on anyone still standing?
I for one welcome a universe where Vermont rules that left-handed redheads are not permitted to run for the Office of POTUS on a Vermon Ballot, while Alabama rules that right-handed blondes are blocked instead.
Well, that wouldn't have anything to do with Section III. Also both states would likely be slapped back for equal protection and/or expanding the disqualifications to include things not in the constitution.
There’s a very interesting argument to be had that the rules about equal protection and expanding disqualifications MIGHT not apply to a State’s method of choosing presidential electors. Totally applies to all the other elections, just not that one.
I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it’s a terribly entertaining argument.
And then you get in the argument that "handedness" is not a protected class under the 14th amendment, and that if we allow wigs and hair-dyes to change hair color, instead of measuring it by genetics, then hair color isn't a protected class either...
Just a reminder that almost everyone now objecting to a Trump disqualification supported challenges to Obama's candidacy based on conspiracy theories about his birth certificate. Obama faced far more court challenges attempting to disqualify him than has Trump so far, many of them after taking office, and most of them supported by various GOP chapters and officeholders. Trump himself for a time supported disqualifying Obama, although he eventually relented in the face of overwhelming proof.
This newfound set of principles about democracy - and the accompanying legal theories - is mere opportunistic hypocrisy by a corrupted political party that actively seeks chaos to exploit.
"Just a reminder that almost everyone now objecting to a Trump disqualification supported challenges to Obama’s candidacy based on conspiracy theories about his birth certificate."
Just a reminder that you're making shit up.
My personal position, stated many times, was that as I thought no clause of the Constitution should be beyond enforcement, then if somebody challenged Obama's status as a natural born citizen, he should have to prove it. As he easily could. As he in fact DID, as soon as somebody actually scheduled a hearing on the merits, instead of denying standing.
There was a candidate running who had a natural born citizenship deficit. But he was McCain, not Obama.
Except... you think that 14/3 is a clause of the Constitution that's beyond enforcement...?
No, I think it needs to be enforced per it's enabling legislation, which is currently a criminal statute.
And yet it's been explained to you precisely why the law you keep trying to reference cannot possibly be "enabling" legislation.
You just run away the moment that evidence is presented and go on to post your nonsense somewhere else.
Do I need to link one of not guilty's numerous responses on this matter?
You keep saying that, but its not true.
The same 1948 act that repealed the Enforcement act of 1870 codified the current Insurrection Statute.
You've also been told before why that argument doesn't work. You and Brett, the Insurrection Act goldfish.
Your response has absolutely nothing to do with the argument not guilty has put forth numerous times to which Brett has not responded.
Are you even aware of the previous discussions Brett has scurried away from, or are you just here to throw peanuts?
Here's just one of them, from yesterday.
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/02/fighting-the-meaning-of-section-three/?comments=true#comment-10427391
Scroll up a couple of comments and there's yet another example.
Yet another argument not guilty put forth is that a criminal conviction has penalties which can be removed via a pardon or other methods. The disability under A14S3 can only be removed by a vote of Congress as the Amendment clearly states. Scroll up about 10 comments from what I've linked to above and you'll see that response.
"You keep saying that, but its[sic] not true."
What did my comment assert?
1) It has been explained to him numerous times.
2) He ran off and avoided any rebuttal to those explanations.
Both true. If you can show me a response where Brett has actually attempted to refute those arguments, I'd be happy to note some progress and put an asterisk next to my second statement that he only usually runs off.
The same people who will tell you that January 6th was an insurrection despite EVERYTHING having been done wrong, right down to people who had guns leaving them behind, who'll tell you even an utterly incompetent insurrection that obviously couldn't have worked none the less had to be an insurrection, can't conceive of Section 3 enabling legislation just being bad legislation.
OK. The insurrectionists were idiots. Most criminals are. Is that an excuse?
And by the way, they apparently had lots of guns in reserve that they were prepared to have their people bring to the Capitol.
I just checked - the DC Police Dept has 3400 officers. Is it your view that the J6 idiots had enough firepower to matter, relative to that?
(I'm ignoring the various feds - capitol police, park police, FBI, ATF, the various police in VA and MD, the nearby military, etc, etc)
Some insurrectionists were angry that more of the police weren't on their side. All of those federal law enforcement and military? Controlled by the executive branch, and the head of that branch blocked their deployment against the insurrection; the seditious conspiracy (a number of convictions) was apparently aimed at creating enough trouble that it would justify Trump invoking the Insurrection Act and using those forces to support the insurrection and overturn the election result.
What a shitty deflection. Stick to this discussion about this legal question;
I hope no one is distracted by you trying to open up a new front of being wrong about something you've been corrected on a lot.
It's been explained with simplistic and unconvincing arguments.
Section 3 doesn't mention civil or criminal does it?
Section 5 says Congress can pass legislation to enforce it doesn't it?
Congress can pass both civil and criminal enforcement provisions can't it?
In the Enforcement act of 1870 section 14 provided civil process for removing disqualified officers.
Section 15 provided criminal penalties for holding an office one was disqualified from.
The Insurrection Statue was passed to replace the Enforcement act of 1870 with a criminal penalty, because in 1948 there was no danger of an ex post facto challenge.
Ted Cruz in his brief says the Insurrection act was Congressional enforcement of Section 3.
I'll take Ted Cruz's word over Not Guilty, he's a much better lawyer.
Kazinski, the relevant question is not whether enforcement proceedings are civil or criminal, no matter how often or how vigorously you assert that red herring. The question is whether the disability created by the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is itself civil in nature or whether it instead constitutes a criminal punishment.
I have offered my analysis of the Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez factors, 372 U.S. 144, 168-169 (1963), upthread. Can you do the same?
And section 3 is silent on that matter.
And Section 5 leaves it up to Congress to decide.
You don't pay any attention to Chase's analysis in Griffin.
But Congress did and passed the enforcement act of 1870 in response.
In other words, no, ng, he cannot.
Again, Kazinski, I have offered my analysis of the Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez factors, 372 U.S. 144, 168-169 (1963), upthread. Can you do the same?
FWIW, Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez and its progeny are binding Supreme Court precedents. Chase's analysis in Griffin is not.
Sorry, I'm not going to waste my time parsing a 1963 immigration case.
If anyone cites it in the Supreme courts decision, even a dissent I'll apologize.
But for now, there's no need for me to waste my time in rabbit holes.
IOW, you have no substantive response, so you run away like a scalded dog. A quick check of casetext shows that Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez has been cited by courts 1,752 times, 46 of those by the U. S. Supreme Court.
Your name should be "not even wrong".
The factors you mention "are all relevant to the inquiry, and may often point in differing directions" -- the very sentence you cite explicitly does not require all of them to agree.
"The same 1948 act that repealed the Enforcement act of 1870 codified the current Insurrection Statute."
I don't know how you think that helps your argument. The Enforcement Act of 1870 at §§ 14 and 15 explicitly referenced the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3. https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/EnforcementAct_1870.pdf The repeal of that Act and the contemporaneous enactment of a criminal statute, 18 U.S.C. § 2383, which does not reference the constitutional provision and which is both broader and narrower than § 3 disqualification, strongly suggests the absence of Congressional intent for § 2383 to enforce or implement § 3.
Exactly. The Insurrection Act is an alternative to 14/3. In particular, they wanted to capture insurrectionists generally, not just oathbreakers.
So of course, they got rid of the no-longer-necessary 14/3 Enforcement Act at the same time.
I've explained this to Kazinski before but it doesn't sink in.
§ 2383’s disqualification provision not only doesn’t track Section 3, it’s probably unconstitutional, at least as to constitutional offices like Pres/VP/Congress (Congress can add qualifications by statute for offices created by statute, so it’s likely valid for Cabinet positions and such). There’s nothing in the criminal statute about having previously taken an oath. If such a person was convicted of insurrection and then tried to run for Congress, the proper result would be they’re perfectly eligible to do so, even from their prison cell, the statute notwithstanding. Congress can’t add new qualifications for those positions by mere statute beyond what the Constitution itself sets. Otherwise they could just as easily pass a law saying anybody convicted of drunk driving, or tax evasion, or whatever is ineligible to run. That’s not a power Congress has and it certainly can’t be grounded in Section 3 when it goes beyond what Section 3 says.
§ 2383 also doesn't say anything about disqualification from state offices. So if it was supposedly the sole exclusive way to ever enforce Section 3, then the part of it applying to state offices has effectively been nullified.
No it's not unconstitutional as for constitutional offices because section 3 gives Congress that power.
It probably is unconstitutional, as applied, for people that never took an oath described in section 3.
But Thorton v Term limits hadn't been decided in 1948, so you can't impute that foreknowledge to Congress.
Moreover, even an acquittal under 18 U.S.C. § 2383 would not preclude civil proceedings to disqualify an office holder under § 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Compare United States v. One Assortment of 89 Firearms, 465 U.S. 354 (1984); One Lot Emerald Cut Stones v. United States, 409 U.S. 232 (1972) (per curiam); Helvering v. Mitchell, 303 U.S. 391 (1938).
As Justice Brandeis opined in Helvering,:
303 U.S., at 397-398 (footnote omitted). Accord: United States v. 89 Firearms, 465 U.S. at 359.
Possibly true, but only if Congress passes civil removal procedures as they did in the Enforcement act of 1870.
You just totally ignore Griffin, the only case that speaks to the issue directly.
The criminal statute you’re talking about, the federal crime of insurrection, was passed before the 14th Amendment and its terms about disqualification aren’t even compliant with it. The idea that it was Congress using 14A Section 5 enforcement power (much less implicitly excluding anybody else from following Section 3) makes no sense when Section 5 didn’t exist yet.
Everything else since then is just various re-codifications. The original language goes back to 1862.
No it was passed in 1948.sure there was a precursor 1962 bill that also confiscated slaves from those convicted.
The Enforcement Act of 1870 passed in 1870 was the enforcement vehicle used during reconstruction.
So What of the 1862 act? The 1948 bill was passed by Congress and remains on the books.
So What of the 1862 act?
The point is clear. The language of the 1948 Insurrection Act is practically identical to the 1862 act. So if the 1948 act is enforcement legislation, so is the 1862 act.
Except it can’t be, because a) the 1862 act predates the amendment it’s meant to enforce, and b) Congress did pass an Enforcement Act in 1870, which suggests that they didn’t consider the 1862 language to constitute enforcement. (Nor did Chase in your favorite Case, Griffin’s.)
Is it your contention that the 1862 act spontaneously became enforcement legislation when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in 1868, and there was dual enforcement between 1870 and 1948?
If not, then you need to explain a) why the exact same language was not enforcement legislation from 1868 thru 1948 but has been since, and b) why Congress failed to specify that the Insurrection Act was enforcement legislation, especially considering that they simultaneously repealed a law that was explicitly enforcement legislation and copied the text from a law that was not enforcement legislation.
You haven’t grappled with any of that, let alone put forward a plausible or even coherent theory.
You seem to think Congress can’t think both that the Insurrection act of 1862 was unenforceable and flawed because it was pre 14th amendment and the 1948 Insurrection act was perfectly good law because it passed 80 years after the 14th amendment gave them that authority.
And It uses the exact same language as the 14th amendment in describing the offices barred: "incapable of holding any office under the United States."
You seem to think Congress can’t think both that the Insurrection act of 1862 was unenforceable and flawed because it was pre 14th amendment and the 1948 Insurrection act was perfectly good law because it passed 80 years after the 14th amendment gave them that authority.
Of course I think that! What kind of screwed up legislator would believe that re-passing the nearly exact same law magically transforms it from “unenforceable and flawed” into a “perfectly good law?” That’s just nutty. Congress never operates that way. If they want to fix a law they think is broken, they’re explicit about it.
Then we devolve into flat lies…
And It uses the exact same language as the 14th amendment in describing the offices barred: “incapable of holding any office under the United States.”
Uh…
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State…
is not the exact same language. The 14th bars way more offices: Congress, electors, and State offices. Why did Congress forget about those when it (re-)passed the Insurrection Act?
What’s especially dumb about this conversation is that pretending the Insurrection Act is enforcement legislation doesn’t even buy you anything! If the 14th isn’t self-executing and the Insurrection Act isn’t enforcement legislation, then there is no enforcement legislation. What’s the practical difference between enforcement legislation that Trump doesn’t satisfy versus no enforcement legislation?
The Constitution changed between the 1862 statute and its 1948 update, in a way that was meant to legitimize exactly that kind of law. That's why the law was valid ever since that amendment was in force.
"And It uses the exact same language as the 14th amendment in describing the offices barred: 'incapable of holding any office under the United States.'”
That, Kazinski, is a flat out lie. The Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 states "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State," after having previously taken an oath to support the Constitution and thereafter engaged in insurrection or rebellion.
The Confiscation Act of 1862 at § 3 provided "That every person guilty of either of the offences described in this act shall be forever incapable and disqualified to hold any office under the United States." No mention of state office, and no specific mention of military office.
The 1948 Act, codified at 18 U.S.C. § 2383, mandates that one convicted thereunder "shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." Again, no mention of state office, and no specific mention of military office.
Is it difficult to comment with pants on fire?
Specifically I am referring to "office under the united states" language, which of course is the clause that is purported to apply to Trump and the Presidency.
And of course see Ted Cruz's and 177 members of Congress brief:
Under current law, Congress has implemented
Section 3 only in the narrow context of requiring a
criminal conviction for “rebellion or insurrection,” and provided that those found guilty “shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.” 18 U.S.C. § 2383. Just as Chief Justice Chase anticipated in Griffin, § 2383 requires compliance with procedural and factfinding requirements dictated by the Fifth and Sixth Amendments."
Kazinski, you specifically said "the exact same language as the 14th amendment in describing the offices barred." I pointed out specific linguistic differences. Don't try now to crawfish away from the words you chose to use.
You are a shameless liar.
No, I am not crawfishing away, I said what I meant:
The phrase “office under the united states” in section 3 used in is exactly the same phrase used in 18 U.S.C. § 2383.
No its not the whole sentence, no its not the whole list of officers. But they did use the same phrase “officers under the United States” that was used in Section 3, which is purportedly the office at issue in this case.
And you don't address the fact Cruz's brief says
"Under current law, Congress has implemented
Section 3 only in the narrow context of requiring a
criminal conviction for “rebellion or insurrection,”
Which contradicts your assertion that Congress has not implemented Section 3. I don't expect you to share Cruz's opinion, but you have to acknowledge its more authoritative than yours.
If they've left out of §2383 the state office prohibition, Congress has not "implemented" all of Section 3.
I don't care what Ted Cruz's brief says -- he is simply wrong. The Congress that enacted the current 18 U.S.C. § 2383 in 1948 repealed the 1870 Act which referenced the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 disabilities.
I have pointed out the differences between disqualification as a criminal penalty under § 2383 and the civil disability created by § 3 on numerous occasions. There is no point in repeating that analysis here.
Just a reminder that you’re making shit up.
Your memory is faulty.
You stumbled at the finish line. McCain didn't have natural born citizenship deficit. He was the son on two citizens and thus had birthright citizenship no matter where he was born.
Ted Cruz was similarly born in Canada, to a mother who was a citizen and a father who was not even a resident. However, his mother alone qualified because she was a citizen who had lived in America for five years after the age of 16.
Obama's mother was only 18, so her citizenship alone wasn't enough to convey citizenship. However, he was born in Hawaii, which counted. (the law has since been changed to require only 2 years after the age of 16 explicitly to avoid situations like Obama's)
Seriously, you have to be willfully ignorant to not know these things by now,
Incorrect. People born in the United States are automatically citizens by operation of the constitution. But people born to citizen parents outside the United States are citizens only by operation of statute. And the applicable statute when McCain was born in 1936 did not apply to the Panama Canal Zone. (The law in question was changed in 1937, so if he had just waited a year it wouldn't have been an issue.) The 1937 law applied retroactively to make people born in the Canal Zone after 1904 citizens, but natural born citizenship doesn't seem like it can be retroactively conferred by Congress. Otherwise Congress could pass a law declaring, e.g., Arnold Schwarzenegger to be retroactively a citizen at birth, thus making him eligible for the presidency. But the NBC clause should not be circumventable that easily.
Section Three's disqualification from office of oath-breaking former officers who subsequently engaged in insurrection against the U.S. Constitution by attempting to overthrow or displace lawful government under the Constitution, is itself a fundamentally democracy-protective provision of our Constitution.
Whether in this specific instance Trump falls under 14.3 is a separate issue from this excellent general principle.
^^^this
Few doubt the fundamental principle of section 3, where the doubt is is whether it applies to Trump personally, or the presidency as an office.
Few? So this article was just a massive red herring?
Of course it's undemocratic, but that ship sailed quite a while ago. The only question is whether this particular undemocratic clause in the constitution applies to the current situation.
The objection is this.
The "Constitutional" law is being used in new and unique ways to disqualify major political candidates.
There are a number of countries which regularly do this type of action. The People's Republic of China. The Democratic People's Republic of Korea. The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. These are all arguably "Constitutional Democracies" which just happen to have interpreted the Constitution in such a way that the major opposition parties have suddenly been disqualified.
When the constitution is suddenly "interpreted" in such a fashion (especially by the party in power) that major candidates are suddenly "disqualified"....one wonders how democratic the system really is.
This differs from a long standing set of rules that doesn't change substantially. (ie, age, citizenship, etc). It's the sudden "oh you're a major candidate, you suddenly can't be elected" which is extremely problematic.
When the constitution is suddenly “interpreted” in such a fashion (especially by the party in power) that major candidates are suddenly “disqualified”….one wonders how democratic the system really is.
The party in power? Seems to me we have quite a conservative Supreme Court, which leans heavily towards Republican positions when ruling on electoral matters.
Look who has interpreted the Constitution in this regards so far.... The SCOTUS hasn't weighed in.
Look who has interpreted the Constitution in this regards so far
Some judges in Colorado. Not "the party in power." I don't think they took their instructions from Biden, or were appointed by him.
Besides, it will in fact be SCOTUS that makes the final decision - more like the party of the candidate some are seeking to disqualify.
And who appointed those judges to the court initially?
Trump came up with a new and unique way to try to overthrow the election.
Like asking the CiA to brief electors?
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
Absolutely nothing like it whatsoever.
On the other hand, spontaneously REFUSING to enforce constitution provisions which are entirely fair and clear in order to swing an election is NOT better.
The important lesson here is that writing, interpreting, and enforcing constitutional provisions is Very Serious Business.
The federal government unlawfully quartering soldiers in people's homes would also justify "suddenly" resurrecting the 3rd Amendment.
That actually came up once, I think in the 1980's? Something to do with striking state prison guards who lived in nearby goverment-owned housing as a function of their jobs. When the state called in the national guard to replace the strikers, the state also tried to re-designate the housing the prison guards were (still) living in as barracks for the national guard instead. Overturned on 3rd amendment grounds.
That almost sounds like the "sudden" enforcement was the result of an unprecedented event!
It’s not just that you’re proposing to remove him from the ballot, you know.
It’s that you’re absolutely adamant that it be done by a procedure which affords practically no due process.
Here you’ve got a federal criminal law, which if Trump actually committed insurrection, is perfectly on point, and would result in disqualification upon conviction. And you insist that you can do it by, not just a civil procedure, but a pretty sketchy one!
The procedure is utterly disproportionate to the enormity of what you’re doing!
By analogy to the elephant in the mousehole, you’re insisting that a flyswatter is enough to kill the elephant, that you don’t need to pull out the elephant gun that you’ve even got on hand.
Why? It can only be concluded that you don’t think you could convict him of insurrection, if you actually had to prove the case to the standards of a criminal trial. Otherwise you’d be demanding that indictment, you’d have been demanding it for several years now.
You have an elephant gun, but you know it's loaded with blanks...
Who is the "you" here.
Not Baude and Paulsen.
The states can't charge him under the Insurrection Act.
The union didn't trust states to enforce Section 3 anyway; Why would they expect Confederates to disqualify Confederates?
The DOJ could charge him under the Insurrection act. And hasn't, in several years.
Maybe the federal government doesn't want him to be disqualified. Did you ever think of that? It should fit well with your conspiracy-mindedness.
When "the federal government does want" someone to be tried for a federal crime, that's usually considered a good reason not to send that person to federal prison. What's so different about this question?
“It’s that you’re absolutely adamant that it be done by a procedure which affords practically no due process.”
That is pure horseshit, Brett. Donald Trump has had beaucoup due process in the courts of Colorado. The 105 page verified petition filed against the Secretary of State gave detailed notice to Trump and the world of what facts and legal theories the six petitioners relied upon. Trump was granted leave to intervene at the outset of the lawsuit. Trump had ample opportunity to conduct pretrial discovery. The Respondents’ Supreme Court brief recites at footnote 3:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-719/298854/20240126115645084_23-719%20Anderson%20Respondents%20Merits%20Brief.pdf
Trump was represented at all stages in the Colorado courts by legal counsel, including a former Colorado Secretary of State. The District Court conducted a five day bench trial, with equal time allotted to each side for presentation of proof. Trump’s lawyers cross-examined the petitioners’ witnesses and presented witnesses on Trump’s behalf. Trump had the opportunity to testify himself, which he elected not to do. Both sides presented proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law to the trial court.
The District Court issued a detailed, 102 page final order. That order, along with various pretrial orders, appears to have addressed every issue raised by either party. The Supreme Court of Colorado granted discretionary review. Trump’s counsel submitted a brief on appeal and participated in oral argument. The Court issued a comprehensive per curiam opinion reversing the District Court, accompanied by the dissenting opinions of three justices.
SCOTUS granted certiorari pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1257(a) and ordered full briefing. Oral argument will be held next week.
FWIW, Donald Trump’s SCOTUS brief makes no complaint that the Colorado courts denied him procedural due process.
Forum shopping. I have no doubt we can find a court within the 5th circuit to "convict" Biden of insurrection. Lawfare is not the way you win an election. Some Texas judge is dying to do just that.
Let the DOJ bring formal charges if they think the case is strong. But they wont.
Your old Alzheimers patient president will need to defeat Trump the old fashioned way, at the ballot box.
If you say the courts in Texas are that corrupt, I suppose I should believe you!
The questions are iffy, and those pushing them have spent the past seven years pushing innumeral different initiatives to git ‘im! One fails, one moves on to the next.
That’s just the lead in. The context is all these different politically motivated attempts to get the opposition. So pardon me if the latest attempt (it’s not even the latest; newer initiatives are under way should this fail like the myriad priors) seems less like disinterested concern for Constitutional law and more like facetious hyperbole in service to a political agenda to get a political opponent.
We see the math, you only need to knock him off a purple state or two. Hence “self-executing” becomes a mantra, by which the power coveteous and their brokers mean one or two wildcat states can decide for the nation as a whole.
God damn sweet how that works out.
We see you, facetious power mongers.
And no, Trump needs to lose because we don’t need him standing with a checkered flag waiving the arrival of Putin’s tanks somewhere west of Poland.
But America also doesn’t need this, either, a far worse threat to democracy than a 4 hour tantrum by lathered rubes.
This isn’t an anti-Trump thing at all. Trump is the best thing that ever happened to Biden. The “facetious power mongers” absolutely want Trump on the ballot — it practically guarantees them another 4 years, very likely with control of the House and Senate too.
The problem for the facetious power mongers is the same one the Trump sycophants like you have: it’s really hard to look at 14/3 along with the evidence and figure a way that it doesn’t render Trump unqualified. That’s why we’re all sitting around here pontificating about how — and even whether — SCOTUS is going to pull it off.
" it’s really hard to look at 14/3 along with the evidence and figure a way that it doesn’t render Trump unqualified."
It not only isn't hard, the only people who DO think he's disqualified are the people who hated him to begin with.
There are people who hate Trump that are driving the lawsuits, that’s absolutely true. But they aren’t the “facetious power mongers.” The mongrels realize that any Republican other than Trump beats Biden handily. You’re just confusing the facetious power mongers with the Trump-haters.
And of course it’s Trump-haters driving the lawsuits. Why would a Trump sycophant bring a case? The default is he’s on the ballot.
Once the case is brought, that’s when it’s really hard to look at everything dispassionately and figure out a way that Trump remains qualified under 14/3. I know you like “not-self-executing,” I think that’s probably the third-likeliest way SCOTUS will go, although it’s not very convincing. (And they’ll say there simply is no implementing legislation, they absolutely won’t say it’s the totally incompatible Insurrection Act.)
That's all you can imagine? Trump haters and sycophants? No people who just view him as an ordinary politician? No people on the margin who'd be persuaded he was disqualified by evidence and arguments, even if they hadn't started out hating him?
If the case against somebody persuades only those who started out hating that somebody, it's a bad case.
It doesn’t only persuade people who started out hating Trump. It’s persuading more and more people all the time. It’s very persuasive.
Part of your problem is that you define everyone who’s persuaded by it to be a Trump-hater. I think you’re the one with the difficulty imagining a world that consists of people other than Trump haters and sycophants.
TDS. They think that because they said it first, it doesn't apply to them.
"He who smelt it dealt it!"
(Same argument)
To the contrary, there are Trump haters who think the disqualification argument is bunk, but there's no evidence that anyone has the opinion that Trump was a so-so politician but that this Fourteenth Amendment effort is totally a good reason to keep him off ballots.
Here's a counter-example.
This guy, I assure you, does NOT like Trump. He's actually favorably disposed towards applying Section 3 against him.
And he thinks the needle just moved in favor of Trump.
I distinguish between two ideas:
1. 14/3 renders Trump unqualified as a matter of fact and law
2. SCOTUS will uphold Colorado one way or another
A lot of people -- myself included -- think that the first is likely true while the latter likely isn't. Maybe that's cynical but we live in a cynical time.
The guy you linked is talking about #2. Baude et al are talking about #1.
More so the opposite is true. The only ones who think he is not disqualified are those who have orange lips.
For a significant minority of the country, it’s extremely easy. And for some portion of that minority, perhaps a larger proportion than in 2020, coming up with an extra 10,000 or so votes upon request may not be such a problem either.
As Stalin said, it doesn’t really matter who gets to vote. What matters is who gets to count the votes. That may well decide who the next president is.
You made the most astute observation here, As Stalin said, it doesn’t really matter who gets to vote. What matters is who gets to count the votes. That may well decide who the next president is.
That is the truth.
As the Section 3 advocates would say, if they were honest: "It doesn't matter who counts the votes, either. It only matters who gets to decide who can be a candidate in the first place."
Once you have the power to decide who CAN be voted for, voting AND vote counting both become secondary.
That "who" is primarily the Constitution.
Do you reject that?
Headnote: "...enforcing Section Three of the Constitution." No, it's Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution.
The Framers chose not to rely on democracy in selecting presidents, they chose instead a method more analogous to selecting judges, election by a college of electors appointed as directed by state legislatures.
For this reason, democracy is a political argument, not a constitutional one. It is certainly used on the appointment of Judges. When President Obama nominated Merrick Gatland to be a Supreme Court Justice, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said it would be more democratic to decide to wait to the next election. And when President Trump nominated Amy Coney Barrett, the same Majority Leader said it would be more democratic to confirm now.
Democracy is relevant to Presidential selection in roughly the same way. One can similarly argue that doing so-and-so, whatever one wishes to do for ones own reasons, would be more democratic. But such arguments have no more to do with constitutional law or with the responsibilities of federal courts when it comes to selecting presidents than they do when it comes to selecting federal judges.
A fundamental principle of constitutional review is that if two different (even opposite) polices are both constitutional, then a compromise or hybrid between them is also constitutional, absent violation of a specific enumerated constitutional precept. Compromise is essential to the functioning of democratic government. The somewhat muddled and wishy washy solutions it sometimes produces are a feature, not a bug.
State legislatures can appoint and instruct the Presidential electors entirely on their own. They can leave appointing and instructing the electors entirely up to the citizens. It therefore follows that a state can adopt a compromise approach whereby the legislature makes some of the decision and the citizens make the rest. A regime in which state law imposes state-law qualifications presidential candidates must meet in order to be on the popular-vote ballot is precisely such a compromise. There is nothing the least bit unconstitutional about it.
We currently have a policy of electors appointed by popular ballot. But there is nothing the slightest bit constitutionally required or preferred by this policy. Doing things this way is solely a creature of each state legislature’s separate decision about what to do.
States no more disrupt our “system” of selecting presidents by taking steps in the direction of more legislature control then they disrupt our “system” of zoning laws by choosing their own. We have no national system for selecting presidents. We have only each state’s local one. When they happen to coincide it is, so far as the constitution is concerned, purely a coincidence.
Sure, state legislatures can impose conflicting requirements, and if they do, that might sometimes lead matters to go to Congress. That might even always happen. For example, if each state decided that its electors could only cast their ballots for someone from their state, noone would ever get an electoral college majority and Congress would always pick the President. This whole business of voting and the electoral college meeting might become a mere formality preceding Congress making the decision. It might become a formality nobody cared about. But so what? If states want things that way, that’s the way our presidents would get picked. It’s no constitutional crisis, it’s no constitutional problem, and it’s certainly no business of the courts, if things happen that way.
There are political reasons, political pressures, for state legislatures to both cooperate and leave things to voters. But there are no constitutional reasons a state legislature needs to do either.
His eligibility to assume the office is the issue, not his being on the ballot or even voted for.
His adherents could write him in (in many cases) and theoretically he could win.
Well, there are two issues.
His eligibility to assume the office is the first one.
The second one is whether the states have the power to delist a candidate that they reasonably believe might be ineligible to assume the office were he indeed to win.
Man, this topic brings out the worst in everybody.
We are not talking about “the Constitution”, we are talking about a state’s regulation of ballot access. The question before us is does a state officer get to decide whether a candidate is an insurrectionist on their own authority?
If “not being an insurrectionist” is the same class of qualification as being of the right age and being a natural-born citizen, then obviously it is something that must have been established AS A FACT first, before it could even be assessed by an administrator.
This is simple order of execution stuff. 2+3*5 is not the same as (2+3)*5. An administrator administrates, they don’t adjudicate. They haven’t been granted super powers, they are clerks.
And for the rest of us, there is no need to wade into the deep waters of Constitutional law or politics and argue all these wild hypotheticals.
Administrators do adjudications all the time in the first instance. It’s super common. Not everything has to start life as a lawsuit, and administrators have to take situations as they find them.
But anyway, in Colorado’s case, Trump’s being an insurrectionist was established as a fact prior to the administrator getting involved.
Those purported facts were not established before that administrator was sued by anti-democracy activists. They've still not been established by any court competent to decide the question.
Or by similar logic, Joe Biden has been established in fact as being incapable of carrying out the duties of the office, and to have given aid and comfort to enemies of the United States, so he's ineligible to be on ballots anywhere.
In Colorado’s case, then, let’s argue over whether a State can establish the fact that someone disobeyed a federal law. That's a sensible discussion at least.
But in Maine’s case, the state court wasn’t even involved at all, it was an administrative hearing.
So sure, let’s have that discussion, but please nothing more on the wild-eyed Constitutional issues. There aren’t any, not really, is what I would argue.
Seems like the answer is clearly yes. When a state court needs an answer to a federal question, they don’t have a mechanism to “ask.” The process is for the state court take a stab, and then any party who doesn’t like the court’s answer can appeal to SCOTUS.
And, note that we aren't talking just about adjudications in the first instance, we're talking specifically about self-executing regulations being adjudicated in the first instance.
Just as a matter of logic, a requirement cannot be self executing unless it can be established from a preexisting fact. Anything more than that, and it isn't "self" executing any more.
An age requirement, for example, can be self executing. One either is or is not the required age.
Don't get too wild-eyed, now!
It still requires evidence and someone to evaluate the evidence. Same with "natural born" citizenship.
Having "served two terms" is closer to being self-executing in that sense, as the evidence would already be subject to judicial notice.
No one, as far as I am aware, is arguing that some clerk in some office in some county or state has absolute authority to declare a candidate ineligible for office. No one.
That determination (if it were to occur) would only be the start of the process, a process which is continuing to this day in respect of the Colorado Supreme Court decision. That is the "due process". The lowly clerk won't "decide" anything; the Supreme Court will.
If the Supreme Court decides this unambiguously, it will set a clear precedent which will be respected by every lower court in the land, and any subsequent clerical determinations will likely be adjudicated quickly and accordingly.
Please read the opinion by the Secretary of State of Maine, and get back to me on your claim that "no one" is arguing that some clerk has absolute authority to declare a candidate ineligible for office.
Colorado at least involved the state court system, which doesn't fix the issue at all, but at least it's a whole 'nother fish than Maine.
But the Maine courts did get involved and overruled the administrator.
That's how it goes in a big country like America. The federal Supreme Court can't decide everying. So the way we scale the judiciary is to have a heirarchy of scopes of juristiction.
Often things start out within the executive. It performs lots of quasi-judicial functions as an adjunct to enforcing laws and regulations. Instead of burdening the court system with every little dispute, the executive is empowered to take a first stab at adjudicating straightforward regulatory questions.
From there, the parties can sue in federal district court or state court if they want to challenge the executive agency's conclusions. It could go all the way to SCOTUS. SCOTUS still gets the final call, but this heirarchical scheme means they don't have to make every initial call. (The heirarchy also helps higher courts like SCOTUS make the final call faster, since there'll already be a well-developed record.)
I read it. She never says her decision is not subject to judicial review or due process. She even suspended the effect of her decision to allow those appeals to take place.
"it will set a clear precedent which will be respected by every lower court "
One might hope so, but looking at 2A related state laws and the relevant courts, one would say that your claim is not so sure.
Claims about the future are necessarily a bit hopeful.
More “No really we’ve got him this time” from those with Trump Derangement Syndrome.
I don’t like Trump either (or Biden for that matter)**, but lawfare is not the way to defeat him. Set aside the fact that lawfare from Day 0 impeachment proceedings motivates his supporters (says supporters: “I dont believe the polls they’ve thrown everything at him for seven years and he keeps coming back”), he hasn’t been convicted of insurrection. If the case is strong, let the DOJ bring charges. His opponents have been trying to get him from Day 0, so these arguments have no credibility. Kanavaugh and Thomas were subjected to these Congressional gotcha games, they wont allow it.
**”reactance” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4675534/ is a real thing people experience.
The more of these anti-Trump lawfare posts I read, even I succumb, and I loathe Trump. Trump mishandled COVID. He had no idea what was going on in his own NIH. His agencies scavenged statutes to impose COVID rules which they had no authority to issue. He blew out the federal budget, which led to COVID-related inflation we are still experiencing. In retrospect the vaccines had more of an effect on pharma bottom lines than COVID. He was the face of gun control, sitting and smiling with Feinstein and pushing bump stock bans, which led to the the pistol brace rule because he unleashed the ATF. He is going to be a lame duck President, lose the House and Senate.
Trump literally would be a nobody loser candidate but for all the lawfare.
Every one of these dumb lawfare posts increases the odds he'll win.
Taking Section Three seriously, and applying its constitutional disqualification rigorously, it is said, would interfere with the right to vote. It would impair the right of the people to select their own leaders . . . .
We begin with first principles. Our democracy is a constitutional democracy. The Constitution both channels and constrains democratic choice, and Section Three is one of those many constraints . . . .
As to the specific question of eligibility for elected office, the Constitution restricts the right to vote, indirectly, by restricting who is eligible to hold specified elected offices.
With those premises Baude/Paulsen disappoint. Their argument is apparently stronger than they know. Or perhaps they choose not to make their strongest argument, lest true originalism disturb the sensibilities of a majority of readers who have been misinformed on the originalist first principle of American constitutionalism.
Here is that first principle, from founder James Wilson (with apologies to those who have seen me cite this repeatedly; it cannot be omitted here):
There necessarily exists, in every government, a power from which there is no appeal, and which, for that reason, may be termed supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable . . . Perhaps some politician, who has not considered with sufficient accuracy our political systems, would answer that, in our governments, the supreme power was vested in the constitutions . . . This opinion approaches a step nearer to the truth, but does not reach it. The truth is, that in our governments, the supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power remains in the people. As our constitutions are superior to our legislatures, so the people are superior to our constitutions. Indeed the superiority, in this last instance, is much greater; for the people possess over our constitution, control in act, as well as right. The consequence is, the people may change constitutions whenever and however they please. This is a right of which no positive institution can ever deprive them.
In this instance, Baude/Paulsen are the ones Wilson refers to, who, "step nearer to the truth, but [do] not reach it." Their mistake is to misconstrue voting as a, "right," instead of the uncontrollable sovereign power which American constitutionalism decrees. It is fair to note that even Wilson seems to have made the same mistake in his last sentence, but in context it remains clear Wilson intended, "right," not in its usual political interpretation, but as absolute power.
The problem with, "right to vote," is that it puts the ultimate constitutive power of the actual sovereign into a class which history demonstrates is subject to regulation by government, and especially by courts. To do that is to make government sovereign by implication, and thus to contradict Wilson; it takes two steps back from the truth, instead of falling merely one step short.
All of Baude/Paulsen's arguments not only remain in place under Wilson's first principle of American constitutionalism, but also enjoy greater strength. The quibbles which invoke due process and court-administered democracy fall aside, once there has been candid acknowledgement the very first principle of American democracy is that it is not founded on a principle of democratic government. It is instead founded, as Wilson said, on a principle of an all-powerful democratically empowered sovereign, which controls both governments and constitutions at pleasure, and without constraint.
Baude/Pausen's opponents would deny the pleasure of the sovereign, while demanding its constraint by the courts. To permit that would turn American constitutionalism upside down, and deliver effective sovereignty to the government—to the delight of would-be government officeholders intent on contesting with the People themselves for the sovereignty of this nation.
"As our constitutions are superior to our legislatures, so the people are superior to our constitutions."
No, The People are not allowed to ignore the Constitution. They are not authorized to elect someone who is not qualified under the Constitution to hold the office to which The People elect him/her.
Such a verbose red herring! Even if Jan 6 had been an insurrection, and even if President Trump had fomented it while in office, the 14th Amendment does not apply to him, as the presidency is not an appointed office and the only remedy applicable to the act of a sitting president is impeachment and removal from office. He was impeached twice and not convicted. Case closed. Everything else is hot air.
(Josh's nickname is "Yogi"?)
If "the only remedy applicable to the act of a sitting president is impeachment and removal from office", what do you make of the last part of this random snippet of text:
"Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."
Since what constitutes an insurrection is not clear, and it is not clear whether Trump engaged in an insurrection (assuming Jan 6 was one), I would defer to the people to decide at the ballot box (while, as always, noting Trump committed a High Crime and the Senate blew it by not convicting and disqualifying him).
I think that is roughly McConnell’s viewpoint. Perhaps it isn’t originalist (*), but sometimes stability should prevail. I suspect the Chief Justice is big on stability.
(*) Although I have no idea if it’s the case, it might be originalist that “a tie goes to the voters.”
Maybe I am wrong about this; you correct me.
When the House impeaches a POTUS, the POTUS has been convicted. That is to say, the political trial in the House occurred, and the POTUS is guilty = impeachment vote.
The sole role of the Senate, post-impeachment, is to decide whether removal from office is warranted. Period. Yes or No, out of office. That's it.
The POTUS was found guilty of the crimes politically, but not removed from office. Is this understanding correct?
From a dictionary:
"Impeach:
1)To make an accusation against.
"impeach someone of a crime."
2)To bring formal charges against (a public official) for wrongdoing while in office.
3)To raise doubts about; discredit or disparage
"Impeachment" is just an indictment, it is the charging step. It doesn't establish guilt.
Then you go to the Senate, where they hold a trial, and vote on whether he's guilty or not. If 2/3 of the Senators don't vote to convict, guilt hasn't been established.
His guilt was established twice. He was impeached twice. He just wasn't punished. Because he's Trump.
No.
Aw, bless.
BB: “Impeachment” is just an indictment, it is the charging step. It doesn’t establish guilt.
Yes.
Impeachment is not conviction. The Senate has the power to convict (by two-thirds majority) and the guilty party is removed from office. After conviction, the Senate can take a second vote (by simple majority) and disqualify the guilty party from holding future office.
I learn new things every day. I honestly thought the only role of the Senate after impeachment was to decide whether to remove a POTUS from office or not; nothing else. The impeachment happened. Now it is the penalty phase of the trial.
I thought the only reason for the 'trial' was rehashing the arguments why the POTUS was impeached by the House for the benefit of the Senate, and asking the Senate to remove the POTUS from office as the penalty.
"I learn new things every day."
Good for you! 🙂
It's pretty important from a legal/political standpoint to understand that the impeachment trial in the Senate is to establish guilt (rather than guilt having already been established by the House).
"I would prefer" is not a legal argument.
Great discovery Prof WILL BAUDE and MICHAEL PAULSEN!
Congrats on figuring out the constitution allows "un-democratic" removing political opponents from the ballots! Let's just allow democrats to form a committee to pick a president! All drama disappeared!
"Great discovery Prof WILL BAUDE and MICHAEL PAULSEN!"
It's not a discovery. If you had been in Mr. Harris' 8th grade History class in Augsburg, (West) Germany in 1972, you would *already* have known that even a man as vital to our country as Mr. Harris can be impeached and removed from office for being less than 35 years old, if The People elect him President of the United States.
That is, The People do not have the authorized power under the Constitution to elect someone president who is less than 35 years old.
And any person who is under 35 who is elected president commits an impeachable offense in his swearing in, when he swears to "the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."
In the Case of Davis, 7 F. Cas. 63 (C.C.D. Va. 1867) (No. 3,621a), Chief Justice Chase held that Section 3 imposed a criminal sanction. Section 3 is essentially a bill of attainder, an exception to their general prohibition in the original Constitution.
But even if one disagrees with that proposition, and call it something akin to the rule of lenity, common sense would dictate the same result. If the Supreme Court determines that the historical record is ambiguous whether the sanctions in Section 3 apply in a given case, then reason suggests they will not apply it.
Well there was Ray Epps.
I have not seen this argument advanced before = lenity
Common sense is not so common. How do you get a 9-0 SCOTUS vote around applying the rule of lenity when the statute is ambiguous? Or can you?
Is the Supreme Court somehow bound by the Case of Davis?
the historical record is ambiguous whether the sanctions in Section 3 apply in a given case
The Amendment itself isn't ambiguous.
So all that's left is what standard of proof to apply. The Colorado court applied “preponderance of the evidence,” but also stated that “clear and convincing evidence” would be met.
The Supreme Court could decide that a different standard should apply.
It would be harder, but possible, for them to decide that one of those standards applies but hasn’t in fact been met. They’d have to find a “clear error” by the Colorado court, such as applying the wrong definition for “insurrection.”
No.
The Supreme Court is not under any legal obligation to defer to the Colorado court's findings of fact, even if they agree that one of those standards applies.
There are two questions.
Not only is there a question of the standard of proof.
The more important question is the precise meaning of "insurrection" because the definition applied in this trial would apply to Martin Luther King for his part in the I am a Man riot, and it pretty clearly would also apply to Harris for her part supporting the Portland arsonists.
To have a rule of law, people must know whether what they are doing is legal. To be able to do that, a consistent definition must be applied. The only definitions I have seen that count Trump's actions are either superfluously ad-hoc to the point of being a post-hoc law, or so broad that dozens or hundreds of people, many of whom currently hold public office, would be included.
Do you have any authority for that proposition, davard?
Justice Kennedy wrote for a four justice plurality of the Court in Hernandez v. New York, 500 U.S. 352, 366 (1991):
Justice Kennedy there opined, "we decline to overturn the state trial court's finding on the issue of discriminatory intent unless convinced that its determination was clearly erroneous. It would pervert the concept of federalism . . . to conduct a more searching review of findings made in state trial court than we conduct with respect to federal district court findings. 500 U.S. at 369 (citation and internal quotation marks omitted). Justice O'Connor, in an opinion concurring in judgment joined by Justice Scalia, agreed that the clearly erroneous standard of review applied. Id., at 372.
The Supreme Court makes the rules! They can always claim it's an "exceptional circumstance" or that the trial court's findings of fact were unreasonable, and thus, should not get deference.
QA asked for a cite, not some right-wing BS.
He was an informant, but he never entered the Capitol, so not exactly leading the way nor was he an agent provocateur, despite Tucker Carlson's irresponsible claims.
Put down the tin foil.
So you have no authority to cite. An ipse dixit assertion that the Court can make it up as they go along is not legal authority.
The Supreme Court can indeed make it up as they go along! They're not bound to any precedent, including their own!
I suspect you would not be quite so deferential if the Supreme Court currently had a 6-3 majority of Democrat-appointed justices...
I'm not talking about what should be, but what is.
I think Democrats are stupid and evil people, and should not exist, so I obviously don't think they should have court appointees.
What do you think of Jews?
Don't particularly care for them, as I think they're ugly and annoying, but are mostly harmless as long as the majority population believes in itself
The striking garbage workers in Memphis did not riot. Police gassed peaceful protesters on February 23, 1968 -- before Dr. King came to Memphis. https://www.history.com/news/sanitation-workers-strike-memphis
He was an informant,
Was he? Everything I've seen says that he was never involved with law enforcement as an informant or otherwise.
Ray Epps convincingly (to me) says he was not an informant. So unless someone has evidence he's not telling the truth, I'd say he wasn't an informant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s4m_r9bvOM