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Professor Akhil Reed Amar and Professor Vikram Amar Retreat From Their "Global" Rule for the "Offices" and "Officers" of the Constitution
Their amicus brief endorses the view that members of state legislatures are officers. They took the exact opposite position in 1995 and in subsequent publications.
[This post is co-authored with Professor Seth Barrett Tillman]
On January 18, Professor Akhil Reed Amar and Professor Vikram Amar filed an amicus brief in Trump v. Anderson, the Section 3 case. The brief was styled as in support of neither party, but the clear import of the brief is that the Supreme Court should disqualify Trump from the ballot. Professor Jason Mazzone describes the brief as "eye-popping and game-changing." We think that characterization is apt, but not for the reasons Mazzone described. As we read the brief, the Amars have retreated from the central position they put forward in an influential 1995 Stanford Law Review article. As their brief and other current commentary does not note their changed intellectual position, we wonder if they realize what they have done.
The "Global" Distinction: Legislators are not Officers
Article II provides that in the event of a presidential and vice presidential double vacancy "Congress may by Law . . . declar[e] what Officer shall then act as President." Under the current presidential succession statute, the Speaker of the House and Senate President Pro Tempore follow the Vice President in the line of succession. This statute would only be constitutional if either rank-and-file members of Congress, or those House and Senate positions, are "Officers" as used in Article II. In their 1995 Stanford Law Review article, the Amars argued that rank-and-file members of Congress, the Speaker of the House, and the Senate President Pro Tempore cannot be placed in the line of presidential succession. According to the Amars, neither members nor officers of the House and Senate are "Officers" for purposes of the Presidential Succession Clause. Central to their argument was what they called a "global" rule. (We discuss the Amars' position at some length in Part II of our 10-part series.) In the Constitution, the Amars write, the words "office" or "officer" refers to positions in the Executive and Judicial Branches. Members of the legislative branch and House and Senate officers are not "Officer[s]" as that term is used in the Constitution's Presidential Succession Clause.
The Amars wrote that the word "Officer" as used in "the Succession Clause[,] is merely shorthand for any of the[] . . . longer formulations" of the Constitution's "office"- and "officer"-language, such as "Officers of the United States" and "Office . . . under the United States." The Amars explained that "[a]s a textual matter," the varied references to "officers of the United States" and "offices . . . under the United States" "seemingly describe[] the same stations." (No actual support is put forward in support of their intuition.) The Amars did entertain the possibility that the Framers drew a "civil/military distinction" among different types of officers. But they posited that "the modifying terms 'of,' 'under,' and 'under the Authority of' are essentially synonymous." In short, the Amars concluded that the Constitution's divergent "office"-language creates a "global officer/legislator distinction." The "global" category of officers, according to the Amars, extends only to positions in the Executive and Judicial Branches.
Furthermore, according to the Amars, this "global" rule was not limited to members of Congress. Rather, members of state legislatures were also not officers. Global means global.
The Article VI Oaths Clause provides:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution.
The Amars observe that Article VI "distinguishes 'Senators and Representatives' from 'Officers … of the United States.'" Likewise, the Amars observe, "Article VI explicitly distinguishes between 'Members of the several State Legislatures,' on the one hand, and 'executive and judicial Officers … of the several States' on the other." They conclude, with regard to federal and state positions, "[t]his carefully chosen language strongly reinforces the Constitution's global officer/legislator distinction."
And this distinction is not limited to the Constitution of 1788. Footnote 28 of the Amars' paper cites Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Footnote 28 states:
The [global] distinction [between legislators and officers] asserts itself yet again in a later amendment providing sanctions for violations of the Article VI Oath Clause. Id. amend. XIV, § 3 "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress … or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States … who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State .…" (emphases in the Amars' article).
This citation in Footnote 28 is significant in several ways. First, the Amars assume—without any analysis—the phrases "Officers of the United States" and "Office under the United States" both had the same meaning in 1788 and in 1868. This admission goes a long way to support our conclusion: the meaning of "officers of the United States" did not drift from 1788 to 1868.
Second, the Amars expressly link the scope of Section 3's language to Article VI, which might put the President, who takes an Article II oath, beyond the scope of Section 3. In short, if the President does not take an Article VI Oath as an "Officer of the United States," then he is not covered by Section 3.
Let's read the entirety of Section 3, under the Amarian reading, in which the Constitution has a global officer/legislator distinction. Under this reading, a defendant disqualified under Section 3 is barred from holding certain federal and state positions. But such a disqualified person is not barred from being a state legislator. Section 3 states:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
A disqualified Section 3 defendant is barred from holding "any office, civil or military, under any State." There is no express language barring such a person from holding a state legislative seat. As officers and legislators are mutually exclusive terms under the Amars' global officer/legislator distinction, a Section 3 barred defendant may hold a state legislative seat. This position is consistent with authority contemporaneous with the Fourteenth Amendment's ratification. See John Randolph Tucker, General Amnesty, 126 N. Am. Rev. 53, 55 (1878), https://www.jstor.org/stable/i25110155; Editor, 'Interesting Decision as to Disqualification Under the Fourteenth Amendment,' [Richmond, Virginia] Daily Dispatch, Mar. 5, 1869, at 3; 'Does the Fourteenth Amendment Exclude the Disqualified from a State Legislature,' Wheeling [West Virginia] Daily Register, Aug. 30, 1871, at 4; 'Does the Fourteenth Amendment Exclude the Disqualified from a State Legislature,' [Richmond, Virginia] Daily Dispatch, Aug. 28, 1871, at 3.
The Amars have continued to quote, cite, and put forward the arguments in their 1995 Stanford Law Review article in subsequent publications. Ten such articles appear on Westlaw. Akhil Amar has returned to this theme in his books. See, e.g., America's Constitution: A Biography 170-73, 556-57 (2006); Akhil Amar, America's Unwritten Constitution 17-19, 404 (2012); see also Akhil Amar, The Words That Made Us 472-465 (2021). Their position has been adopted by colleagues and students. See generally Michael Stern, Amarica's Constitutional Crisis: A Kinda Intellectual History of the Office/Officer Controversy, Point of Order (Jan. 5, 2024), http://tinyurl.com/6xu6x43r (listing Akhil Amar's former-student protegees, e.g., Professor Kalt, Professor Chafetz, and Benjamin Cassady). The Amars have never retreated from their 1995 position.
Until now.
The Amars' Brief Endorses the View That State Legislators Are Officers
Jump forward to August 2023. Professor Will Baude (another former student of Akhil Amar) and Professor Mike Paulsen (Akhil Amar's former law school roommate) assert in their article that members of state legislatures do hold "office . . . under the United States." As Baude and Paulsen state: "Though somewhat more awkward, we think an elected office in a state legislature also qualifies as a 'civil' office within the language and design of Section Three, reading the word 'office' in this context in an ordinary, non-technical sense." (emphasis added). See Baude & Paulsen at 107. We suggest "awkward" is something of an understatement.
As a result, under the Baude and Paulsen view, a person subject to Section 3 disqualification can not serve in a state legislature. Baude and Paulsen do not opine that their position is in tension with the Amars' "global" member/legislator distinction that existed in 1788 and 1868. Quite the opposite, Baude and Paulsen posit that their position is consistent with the Amars' 1995 publication. Id. at 107 n.389 (citing the Amars' 1995 Stanford Law Review article, absent noting any tension with their position). Although Akhil Amar has had a good many recent podcasts on Section 3, including more than one such podcast with Baude and Paulsen, as far as we know, the daylight between his position and theirs was not a topic of discussion.
Now turn to the present day and the Amars' recent amicus brief.
The Amars' brief contends that Section 3 is self-executing, and it does not require federal enforcement legislation. We intend to return to their substantive position on the self-execution issue in a future post. But here, our focus is on the "officer" issue, and on the evidence of a new Section-3 related historical narrative which they have put forward.
Read these two passages from the brief, and see if you spot the inconsistency between the Amars 1995 (and post-1995) position and what they are now saying in their brief:
Soon after the Fourteenth Amendment formally came into effect in mid-1868, America elected Grant president. Grant placed Brevet Major General Edward Canby in charge of Virginia's Reconstruction. As Grant later explained in his memoirs, Canby was an officer "of great merit"—"naturally studious and inclined to the law." Few, if any, army officers, wrote Grant, "took as much interest in reading and digesting every act of Congress. . . . His character was as pure as his talent and learning were great."
Shortly after the Fourteenth Amendment's formal promulgation, Canby properly concluded that Section Three was self-executing. Any disqualified candidates in the Virginia elections, Canby announced, would not "be allowed to enter upon the duties of the offices to which they may have been chosen, unless their disabilities have been removed by Congress." He kept at least two disqualified candidates-elect out of the [state] legislature. (footnotes omitted)
Do you see the problem? Let's try the last sentence again: General Canby "kept at least two disqualified candidates-elect out of the legislature." The legislature. The only way Section 3 could be used to keep a disqualified person out of the legislature is if a state legislator holds an "office under a[] State." The very evidence that the Amars cite in relation to Section 3 undermines the so-called "global" rule they announced in 1995 and have continued to defend—until now.
We think this evidence puts the reader to a hard choice. If the Amars are correct, if the Constitution embraces a global officer/legislator distinction, and that distinction extends to Section 3, then several conclusions follow. First, a Section-3 barred defendant may serve as a state legislator. Baude and Paulsen would be incorrect for asserting that a Section-3 barred defendant may not serve as a state legislator. And those other academics who have argued that a Section-3 barred defendant is barred from all state and federal positions are equally incorrect. More importantly, the Amars' amicus brief argues that General Canby was relying on Section 3 authority when he barred persons from service in the state legislature. But ex hypothesi, Section 3 does not bar anyone from state legislative service. It follows that the Amars' new historical Canby-focused narrative in support of their interpretation of Section 3 is flawed, and it is flawed precisely because it is at odds with their own prior publications.
On the other hand, if the Amars are incorrect, if the Constitution does not embrace a global officer/legislator distinction, then the Amars' publications on the Presidential Succession Clause and other constitutional provisions using "office"- and "officer"-language are, if not wrong, flawed, and they should be reconsidered. And the same applies to the publications of the many, many academics and Amar protegees who have relied on the Amars' extensive scholarship on this subject.
We cannot square this circle. We doubt the Amars can do so, but we think they should, at the very least, try to do so, and acknowledge and address the contradictions and tensions across their own publications. Furthermore, the Amars do not explain why the Framers of the Constitution of 1788 would use different "office"- and "officer"-language across the original seven articles. Nor do they explain why the Framers of the Constitution of 1788 used different "office"- and "officer"- language within two clauses of Article VI—the Oath Clause and the Religious Test Clause. Nor do they explain why the Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment used different "office"- and "officer"-language within a single sentence of Section 3. And most importantly, the Amars do not explain why all these Framers would use all these textual variants when, according to the Amars, all these textual variants mean precisely the same thing and each different phrase extends to the identical set of federal officials and officers. The same criticism we give voice to here equally applies to Baude and Paulsen, who argue that "officer of the United States" is co-extensive with "office . . . under the United States."
Our position is different. We attempt to explain the textual variants in the Constitution's text. In our view, there is a simple explanation for the Constitution's divergent office language. Different "office"- and "officer"-language have different meanings, and different language was so understood. "Officer" has one meaning; "officer of the United States" has a different meaning; and, "Office . . . under the United States" has yet another meaning. The terms are related, but they are not the same. For example, the House Officers Clause refers to the Speaker of the House as an "Officer". The Speaker is not an "Officer of the United States," but the Speaker is an "Officer" for purposes of the Succession Clause. It is not all that complicated if you do not fight the text. And if we are correct, the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 (like its 1792 predecessor) is constitutional.
General Canby and Reconstruction
We do not suggest that Canby acted without good authority. At this juncture, we simply do not know the answer to that question. It is possible that Canby was relying on Section 3 as a grant of authority to bar disqualified persons from state legislative service. If so, we think he erred. Canby was not the Alpha and Omega of constitutional interpretation. But it is also possible that Canby was not relying on Section 3 as a source of authority to bar disqualified persons from the state legislative service. Instead, Canby may have been acting under general authority inhering in federal officials, including military officers, during military reconstruction, and/or under federal statutes granting authorities to federal officers. An amicus brief filed by a group of historians observed that "disqualifications, based on the text of Section 3, were enforced summarily by military commanders under the authority of the Reconstruction Act of 1867." Brief for Professors Orville Vernon Burton et al., at 25. (The historians do not seem to have recognized that the existence of this federal reconstruction statute undermined their argument that Section 3 was enforced absent enforcement legislation.)
If Canby was acting under federal reconstruction authority, there was no need for Canby or others to consider whether Section 3 was self-executing, because Congress, in fact, had already provided the legislation based on military reconstruction powers or other constitutional grants of authority beyond the Fourteenth Amendment. As we understand their position, the Amars, in their brief, make the argument that Canby was acting directly and exclusively under Section 3, absent authority granted by any federal legislation. But what (if any) evidence is there to support their position? It is up to the Amars to put such evidence forward in support of their "new" historical narrative.
Again, if the Amars want to argue that Canby's authority to bar disqualified persons from state legislative service relied exclusively on Section 3, then their "global" member/legislator distinction is, we think, dead in the water.
Alternatively, if the Amars' global member/legislator distinction does apply to Section 3, then Canby could not have relied on Section 3 when he barred disqualified persons from state legislative service. Instead, Canby must have been relying on some other set of powers in the Constitution other than section 3, or on federal enforcement legislation (unrelated to Section 3), or on some special powers associated with military law and military reconstruction. In any of these circumstances, the Amars' amicus brief errs. It errs because Canby may have been relying on other authorities, such as, federal enforcement legislation, which undermines the Amars' argument that Section 3 is self-executing.
Similarly, if the Amars' global member/legislator distinction does apply to Section 3, then Baude and Paulsen's paper is wrong in asserting that Section 3 is a bar on a state legislative service. And that point is of no small import. The state legislatures were the means by which secession was put into effect, and they were the machines that enforced the Confederate draft and raised taxes to support those armies in the field. If after all that, a Section-3 barred defendant was allowed to serve in the state legislature, then it is no great surprise that Section 3 does not bar a person from the presidency (and vice presidency) too.
The Amars' brief has other discussion about "office"- and "officer"-language. We think that discussion is also problematic, and, that the materials they cite, in fact, undermines their position.
The Ironclad Oath
The Amars' filing takes a format much like the Hart dialectic. It poses "twenty questions," and then proceeds to give answers. The first question posed, "Is the president an officer within the meaning of Section Three?" The Amars answer, "Undoubtedly." The Amars, as they did three decades ago, do not distinguish between an "Officer of the United States" and an "Office under the United States." To them, all of these phrases mean the same thing: the Constitution uses the word "Office" and "Officer" to refer to positions in the Executive and Judicial Branch, but not to positions in the Legislative Branch.
The Amars cite the Ironclad Oath Act of 1862 as evidence that the presidency is not an "office under the United States." They write:
When Civil War lawmakers aimed to exempt the president, they did so expressly. The Ironclad Oath Act of 1862 applied to "every person elected or appointed to any office of honor or profit under the government of the United States, either in the civil, military, or naval departments of the public service, excepting the President of the United States." This language—in a landmark Oath-law predecessor to Section Three itself—proves that Congress and the public plainly understood that "the President of the United States" was emphatically a person who held an "office . . . under the government of the United States." (footnote omitted)
This argument is not original to the Amars. Miles Lynch raised this argument, as did Baude and Paulsen. We responded to this argument at some length at pp. 572-577 of our article, Sweeping and Forcing the President into Section 3.
The short answer: the Amars only quote from part of the Ironclad Oath statute.
The statute has two relevant parts. The first part, which the Amars quote, lists those who had to take the new statutory oath: "hereafter every person elected or appointed to any office of honor or profit under the government of the United States, either in the civil, military, or naval departments of the public service, excepting the President of the United States." These individuals "shall, before entering upon the duties of such office, and before being entitled to any of the salary or other emoluments thereof, take and subscribe the following oath or affirmation." The statute then provides the so-called Ironclad Oath.
The second part of the statute, which the Amars did not quote, lists the positions that a convicted person may be disqualified from holding: "And any person who shall falsely take the said oath shall be guilty of perjury, and on conviction, in addition to the penalties now prescribed for that offence, shall be deprived of his office and rendered incapable forever after of holding any office or place under the United States."
We make four primary observations based on the plain text. First, the "office"-language in the first part is different from the "office"-language in the second part. The former refers to "any office of honor or profit under the government of the United States." The latter refers to "any office or place under the United States." The fact that the same statute uses different "office"-language strongly suggests that that the language refers to different positions. We have written that the phrase "Office . . . under the government of the United States" is broader than the phrase "Office . . . under the United States." The former phrase includes the elected President and the Vice President and the Vice President.
We make a second observation based on the plain text of the Ironclad Oath statute. The President is expressly excluded from the scope of the phrase "office of honor or profit under the government of the United States, but not expressly excluded from the scope of the phrase "any office . . . under the United States." We agree with the Amars that the former phrase (i.e., "office … under the government of the United States") includes the presidency, and all elected and appointed federal officials and officers. But the Amars do not parse the remainder of the statute's text. This latter phrase (i.e., "office . . . under the United States") includes only appointed federal positions, and it does not include the presidency, or any elected federal officials. Because this latter phrase does not include the presidency, there was no need to exclude the presidency from this part of the statute. Substantively, the President was excluded from the scope of the former phrase because Congress does not control the President's Article II oath. As to the statute's disqualification provision, in the latter phrase, there was no need to exclude the President from the scope of the statutory disqualification because that text (using more limited "office"-related language) does not extend to the presidency. Moreover, in 1862, Congress had no authority to impose additional qualifications on the presidency. As a result, the statute uses language that is consistent with Congress's limited power in regard to setting qualifications. Congress sets qualifications in regard to positions which it authorizes, regularizes, or creates by statute, and not with regard to elected positions created by the Constitution.
We make a third observation. The statute expressly distinguishes between those who are elected and appointed to an "office of honor or profit under the government of the United States. Elected and appointed are not synonymous, as some would claim. And if you contend that members of the legislative branch are never "offices," as the Amars have argued since 1995, then the President and the Vice President are the only elected positions that could fit within the ambit of "office of honor or profit under the government of the United States." No one else is elected in the federal system! This statute reaffirms something that was never in doubt until recently: the President is elected, not appointed.
The fourth conclusion is the most important. We think the Amars would agree that Congress cannot add qualifications to the presidency by statutes. Therefore, the phrase "any office or place under the United States" could not include the presidency, because Congress could not by statute disqualify a person from holding the presidency. This statute was enacted in 1862, prior to the 14th Amendment, so it could not be a means of enforcing a Section 3 disqualification. As a result, the phrase "office under the United States" should not be understood to include the President in this statute. And that is one reason why there was no need to exclude the presidency from the force of this provision. It is this "office under the United States"-language that is in Section 3. And this language does not extend to the presidency.
All of this is to say that the Ironclad Oath does not support the Amars' position. At most, it suggests the presidency is an "Office under the Government of the United States," but is not an "Office under the United States." We don't hold this statute, or any other statute, as dispositive evidence of what similar language means in the Constitution. Rather, we point out again how the very evidence the Amars cite undermines their 1995 (and post-1995) position. This statutes shows varied "office"-language within a single statutory provision and how some variations in the language include the presidency (and other elected provision), but other variations do not include the presidency (and other elected positions). One wonders if the Amars realized that the position they have taken in their recent amicus brief is at odds with their 1995 (and post-1995) position?
What kind of Commission does the President need?
The second question asked and answered by the Amars in their amicus brief focuses on the Commissions Clause. The Commissions Clause provides that the President "shall commission all the Officers of the United States." The Amars respond that "The president ordinarily does not commission himself." Ordinarily? Does he do it sometimes, in an unordinary fashion? We don't even know what this hedge means. More than a decade ago, Professor Saikrishna Prakash (another former student of Akhil Amar), argued that the President may have commissioned himself. In response, Tillman produced a congressional report stating that the practice is not to commission the President. No one—not Saikrishna Prakash, and not Akhil Amar, and not Vikram Amar—has ever produced any evidence that any such commission has ever existed. (If you missed it, Prakash recently wrote an essay in the Messenger, in which he doubles-down on the Amarian position.)
The Amars try to work around this historical record by explaining that the President does receive a commission—sort of—just not from himself:
It makes far more sense to say that the president is not the kind of officer who needs a president-issued commission. Nor is the vice president. The reason for this is simple, when the Constitution is read holistically: A commission is a piece of paper identifying who is an officer and when his/her status as an officer commenced. See Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137, 156–57 (1803). But for presidents and vice presidents, the Constitution itself provides a separate mechanism for answering these questions. As we explained more than a decade ago, Congress in certifying the electoral votes issues a "commission-equivalent," identifying who the new president and vice president will be. And the Constitution itself specifies when the office commences: precisely every four years, at noon on Inauguration Day. [Amar & Amar amicus brief at 19.]
We are not entirely sure what to make of this argument. The Constitution provides that the commission must be issued by the President—not by a joint session of Congress. Ask any federal judge in the country who signed their Article III commission—it was the President, not the Senate that confirmed him or her. Even if the tabulation paperwork by the joint session of Congress was somehow a functional commission (it's not), that tabulation is not issued by the President to himself or to a successor. The Amars would ignore the text of the Commissions Clause because it does not comport with their understanding of what an "Officer of the United States" is. The simpler and, therefore, better conclusion is that the President does not commission himself because he is not an "Officer of the United States."
The President is not a Military Officer
The Amars have a standard response to the argument about the Impeachment Clause. They argue that the President is actually a military officer, at least in part, so he would not fall under the umbrella of the Impeachment Clause's "civil officers of the United States"-language. Akhil Amar restated this position on his podcast (starting at 1:18:12), as if it were some sort of slam dunk. The Amars' brief states:
This clause refers to "the President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States." If the president is an officer, why doesn't the text say "all other civil Officers of the United States"? Aha!, exclaims Professor Mousehole, triumphantly. One obvious answer to the fictional Professor Mousehole is that the president is not purely a civil officer but also a military one, as commander-in-chief. The vice president is second in military command, should the commander fall. Or so a draftsman might have thought. Today, America's soldiers salute the president and vice president, but not, say, a typical senator or cabinet secretary or justice.
Professor Mousehole (for those who did not read the entire brief) is a reference to Justice Scalia's observation that Congress does not hide elephants in mouseholes. But, as is often the case, the Amars state a position without any actual authority in support of their novel position. There is substantial, continuous authority that the President is not a military officer, in whole or in part. In 1789, Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton included the President in the "civil list," but not in the "military list." See Report on the Estimate of the Expenditure for the Civil List and the War Department (1789). In Parker v. Levy (1974), the Supreme Court observed, "The military establishment is subject to the control of the civilian Commander in Chief and the civilian departmental heads under him, and its function is to carry out the policies made by those civilian superiors." (emphasis added) The Court could not have been clearer. The proposition that the President is a civilian official is not controversial. Where has it been debated? Rather, to avoid undermining their atextual position, the Amars have to assert claims about the nature of the presidency without any actual substantial evidence.
Again, the Impeachment Clause refers to the "President, Vice President, and civil officers of the United States." It is a fact that the President and Vice President are listed separately from the "civil officers of the United States." It is a fact that this provision does not state: "other civil officers of the United States." It is a fact that an early draft of the Impeachment Clause used "other" in just this fashion. It is a fact that the word "other" was stripped out by a style committee at the federal convention. (See pp. 397-400 of Part III.) And it is a fact that jurists and scholars, for two centuries, have reasoned on this basis that the President is not an "officer of the United States." The Amars cannot undercut all these facts by making the threadbare assertion that the President is a military officer. See Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579, 646 (1952) (Jackson, J., concurring) (noting that the Framers' "purpose of lodging dual titles [i.e., President and Commander-in-Chief] in one man was to ensure that the civilian would control the military . . . ." (emphases added)); Roosevelt Is Held Civilian At Death, New York Times, July 26, 1950 (reporting that a New York surrogacy court found that President Franklin D. Roosevelt was not a military officer due to the fact that the President is subject to impeachment, but not "court martial or other military discipline."); see also Saikrishna Bangalore Prakash, Deciphering the Commander-in-Chief Clause, 131 Yale L.J. 1, 83 (2023) (explaining that "[t]here is no separate office of the Commander-in-Chief").
What about Justice Story's Commentaries on the Constitution?
Throughout this debate, we have been surprised that our critics have ignored Justice Story. His celebrated Commentaries on the Constitution (1833) support the position that the President is not an "Officer of the United States." Baude and Paulsen do not mention his writings on the Impeachment Clause. Professor Sam Bray, who entered the debate in a recent post, also does not mention Story. Tillman is not the origin of the position that the President is not an "Officer of the United States" It goes back, at least, to Justice Story. (Obviously, we think it goes back to 1787.) And Story, and his Commentaries, would have been well known to many in the 1860s when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed by Congress and ratified. For example, the Louisville Daily Journal, expressly invoked Story's Commentaries, when making the argument that the Impeachment Clause supports the view that the President is not an "officer of the United States."
To their credit, the Amars acknowledge Story's position, but discount its relevance:
Justice Story basically asked Questions 2 and 3, to which we have offered our short answers. Of course, Story did not live to see Section Three, so he cannot be strongly relevant on what its drafters and ratifiers meant. Great as he was, Story was hardly infallible, as this Court recognized in Moore v. Harper, 600 U.S. at 34, which sidestepped Story's hasty embrace of ISL theory. See also U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779, 856 (1995) (Thomas, J., dissenting) (critiquing Story similarly).
Justice Story did not just ask questions about whether the President is an "Officer of the United States." He answered those questions in the negative! In any event, the Amars miss the mark. Justice Thomas observed in Term Limits:
Justice Story was a brilliant and accomplished man, and one cannot casually dismiss his views. On the other hand, he was not a member of the Founding generation, and his Commentaries on the Constitution were written a half century after the framing. Rather than representing the original understanding of the Constitution, they represent only his own understanding. (emphasis added).
With regard to Article III jurisdiction, Akhil Amar was once eager to rely on Story's views in Martin v. Hunter's Lessee. Not so much on Section 3. Notwithstanding Story's publishing his Commentaries several decades prior to the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, his Commentaries are indeed relevant to understanding Section 3.
In the Section 3 debate, we do not put Story forward in order to determine the original meaning of the Constitution in 1788. Story wrote several decades after ratification. Rather, Story was opining on the Blount impeachment trials. And for decades, lawyers and jurists studied Story's Commentaries. In many regards, Story affected the original public meaning of "Officer of the United States" in 1866 through 1868. The article in the Louisville Daily Journal, which cites Story, is substantial evidence of this conclusion. And it is not just this newspaper; rather, Story's Commentaries were invoked countless times in mid-nineteenth century impeachment proceedings and in other debates on statutes and proposed constitutional amendments. Professor Kurt Lash observed in his amicus brief that "[t]he Members of the Thirty-Ninth Congress accepted Joseph Story as 'our highest commentator' on the Constitution, and they cited and quoted his work repeatedly during congressional debates." Who is a more reliable expositor of the Constitution, as it was understood in the nineteenth century: the Amars or Story? To ask the question is to answer it. Again, the Amars' dismissing Story's relevance to the debate on Section 3's "office"- and "officers"-language misses the mark.
The Amars' Amicus Brief does not even mention the Appointments Clause. Why?
There are four provisions in the Constitution of 1788 that use the phrase "Officers of the United States": the Commissions Clause, the Impeachment Clause, the Article VI Oath Clause, and the Appointments Clause. The Amars discuss the first three of these provisions, but not the fourth. We are uncertain why. The Principal Officers Appointments Clause appears in Article II, Section 2, along with the Inferior Officers Appointments Clause and the Recess Appointments Clause:
He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.
The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.
Our view is that the Appointments Clause is the strongest evidence that the President is not an "Officer of the United States." Indeed, there is ample Supreme Court case law supporting this view. For example, United States v. Smith (1888) explained, per Justice Field, "[A]n officer of the United States can only be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, or by a court of law, or the head of a department. A person who does not derive his position from one of these sources is not an officer of the United States in the sense of the Constitution." (emphasis added) Smith did not merely say that all appointed officers of the United States must be appointed through Article II, Section 2 procedures. Rather, Smith made a significantly more expansive claim. The Court stated that any person who holds his position by any other procedure outside Article II, Section 2 is not an officer of the United States. Thus, the President and Vice President and members of Congress are not officers of the United States. This principle was not first announced in Smith, and cases since Smith have continued to cite Smith as good law. Smith has never been overruled. Nor has any Supreme Court decision even hinted that Smith erred. Finally, the Smith Court explained that the issue to be determined is not how "Officer of the United States" is used in everyday speech or in statutes; rather, the issue to be determined is how that phrase is used "in the sense of the Constitution."
Why did the Amars' analysis in their brief skip the Appointments Clause? Is it that the gravamen of their position is that the President is an appointed position, but they are unwilling to clear the air by saying so? The Respondents-voters in Trump v. Anderson have now tied themselves to the mast that the President is appointed by the electoral college. Respondents Br. at 40. Our view is that Respondents' position errs.
Or, maybe the Amars are uncertain about the meaning of "whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law." They would be in good company. In United States v. Maurice (C.C.D. Va. 1823), Chief Justice Marshall wrote of the Appointments Clause, "I feel no diminution of reverence for the framers of this sacred instrument, when I say that some ambiguity of expression has found its way into this clause." We realize Roger Parloff and others have suddenly discovered the Appointments Clause's true meaning and were good enough to tell us its meanings just days before the Supreme Court will hear Trump v. Anderson. Indeed, the Respondents have now expressly adopted this argument:
The Constitution "otherwise provide[s]" for the "appointment" of the President and Vice President by the electoral college, and the Speaker of the House and President pro tempore of the Senate by Congress. (Respondents Br. at 40).
But the fact of the matter is that resolving this legal issue was difficult for John Marshall. So a just-in-the-nick-of-time discovery and publication days before oral argument might raise some legitimate doubts.
We discuss at some length the text of the Appointments Clause, and different ways to read it at pp. 377-387 of Part III. Professor Chad Squitieri of Catholic University offers a similar analysis in his article, Towards Nondelegation Doctrines (pp. 1262-63).
Again, here is the text for ease of reference: The President "shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law." In order for this phrase "whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law" to apply to the President—that is, in order to interpret this phrase as meaning that the President is an "Officer of the United States"—four things must be true.
First, for this argument to work, two lines of Supreme Court precedent would have to be wrong. And more than wrong; they would have to be nonsensical. United States v. Hartwell (1867), decided a year before the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, offered a two-part definition of an office. First, a procedural component: "[a]n office is a public station, or employment, conferred by the appointment of government." Second, a substantive component: "[t]he term [office] embraces the ideas of tenure, duration, emolument, and duties." This test included both a procedural and substantive component for the meaning of "Officer of the United States." The Hartwell line of cases was reaffirmed in Germaine, Buckley, Morrison, Lucia, etc. (See our analysis with regard to whether Special Counsel Robert Mueller was an "Officer of the United States.") There is another line of precedents that define an officer of the United States based on the procedure by which that position is filled: Mouat (1888) and Smith (1888). These cases focus on the first procedural prong of Hartwell. They do not focus on the substantive prong. Smith stated, without any equivocation:
[A]n officer of the United States can only be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, or by a court of law, or the head of a department. A person who does not derive his position from one of these sources is not an officer of the United States in the sense of the Constitution. (emphasis added).
The position that "not herein otherwise provided for" extends to positions filled by election or to mechanisms outside Article II, section 2 procedures is entirely inconsistent with both lines of cases. The Hartwell line of cases provided a two-step test, and the first step focused on appointment. It makes no sense to say election is an alternative which takes the President out of the Article II process of appointing "Officers of the United States." As for Mouat and Smith, those decisions make clear that the only way to fill an "Officer of the United States" post is to be appointed, and such appointment must be made by the President, a court of law, or a head of department.
The reading suggesting that there are other mechanisms to fill an "officer of the United States" position is inconsistent with these precedents. It is more than inconsistent with these precedents. That reading reduces these holdings to nonsense. Moreover, Mouat was written by Justice Miller; Smith, by Justice Field—both Lincoln appointees, loyal Union men, who received their appointments while the Civil War was still ongoing. Is it really possible that they both wrote for unanimous Courts, and both they and all the other Justices just "forgot" that the President is an appointed "Officer of the United States"?
We answer "no."
For ease of reference, we repeat the text of the Appointments Clause: the President "shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law . . . ."
Second, for the Respondents' argument to work, the phrase ", and which shall be established by Law" would not apply to the immediately preceding language: "whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for." And that reading would run afoul of the Last-Antecedent Canon. If the phrase "whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for" refers to some category of appointed positions, then "which shall be established by Law" would modify the immediately previous referent. That is, this category of other appointed positions must be established "by law." But the presidency was not established "by law." "By law" is a drafting term meaning "by statute." See Office of Pers. Mgmt. v. Richmond, 496 U.S. 414, 424 (1990) ("Money may be paid out only through an appropriation made by law; in other words, the payment of money from the Treasury must be authorized by a statute." (emphasis added)); Amar, Biography, at 170 (stating that "by Law," as used in the Succession Clause, means "by a statute presumably enacted in advance"); Harris L. White, Constitutional Law: Joint Resolutions: Effect Upon Statutes, 22 Cornell L.Q. 90, 92 (1936). The presidency was not established by statute; rather, the presidency was established by the Constitution.
Third, for the Respondents' reading to work, the President would have to be appointed, not elected. We have recently responded to claims by Roger Parloff who claims that the President is in fact appointed, and not elected. James Heilpern and Michael Worley (pp. 17-26) assert that for purposes of the Constitution, appointed and elected have the same meaning. And Respondents have endorsed Heilpern and Worley on this point. (Respondents Br. at 40 ("The Constitution 'otherwise provide[s]' for the 'appointment' of the President and Vice President by the electoral college, and the Speaker of the House and President pro tempore of the Senate by Congress.") By way of counter-example, we note that the Sinecure Clause draws an express contrast between appointed officers and elected officials. The Sinecure Clause states:
No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created . . . . (emphases added).
Undoubtedly, appoint and elect have overlapping meanings, and the public will, on occasion, use them in a similar fashion, perhaps, even as synonyms. But the relevant issue is how does the Constitution use this terminology, and how did and how would the contemporaneous public have understood the Constitution's usage. The Sinecure Clause points us in the direction of the answer.
Blackman, who has performed research with corpus linguistics, has long recognized that not all sources in the Corpus of Founding Era American English (COFEA) should be treated equally. For example, in the context of the Second Amendment, state constitutions and statutes about bearing arms, which were given public scrutiny as official government documents, should be given more attention than hastily-drafted letters that were dashed off with little deliberation and no public scrutiny. Indeed, in Heller, Justice Scalia placed primary reliance on these official documents. The same principle suggests caution before treating as dispositive extemporaneously delivered floor statements by legislators, who may not have used the same precision they would when drafting a statute or constitutional amendment. Generations of scholarship on the risks of citing legislative history are apt. Blackman's co-authored article on corpus linguistics observed that a "constraint on COFEA" is that "People tend to speak differently than they write." James C. Phillips and Josh Blackman, Corpus Linguistics and Heller, 59 Wake Forest Law Review 609, 634 (2021).
To put it another way, the primacy of the Constitution's text, including the Sinecure Clause, should be entitled to more weight than scattered statements in a corpus linguistics search. And this position is supported by mounds of precedents. Jurists from Chief Justice John Marshall in U.S. v. Burr to Chief Justice John Roberts in Free Enterprise Fund, Seila Law, and Vance have concluded that the President is elected. (Also see above how the Ironclad Oath statute distinguishes between appointed and elected positions.)
Fourth, for the Respondents' reading of the Appointments Clause to work, the "Officers of the United States" "whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for" would be appointed by someone other than the President. They contend that the Electoral College makes that appointment. But the Constitution consistently describes the President as elected. For starters, the word "electors" is based on the word "elect." Under Article II the electors, who are appointed by the states, who then "vote by Ballot." The Presidential Succession Clause states that the "President shall be elected." The Domestic Emoluments Clause refers to the period in which the President "shall have been elected." Like with the Sinecure Clause, the Respondents' place some scattered corpus linguistics searches over the actual language used in the Constitution.
In our view, the phrase "whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for" is a null set. The first key word is not. The text is telling the reader that there are not any other officers of the United States located outside of Article II, Section 2. This phrase directs the reader not to scour the Constitution for additional mechanisms which fill "Officer of the United States" positions. Part III, at 383-385, 442-445 Moreover, the text that immediately follows provides further support for our position: The President "shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law." The phrase "and which shall be established by Law" modifies all that comes before it. The second key word is and. This phrase modifies all that comes before it. We think the nearest-reasonable referent canon is apt here. All of the Officers of the United States must be established by law. All of them.
The contrary reading, Respondents' reading of the Appointments Clause, leapfrogs from "all other Officers of the United States" to "and which shall be established by Law." That is, all "Officers of the United States" are established by law, except for this unknown set of Officers of the United States, who are not established by law, including the Presidency. We think this novel reading of the text is very difficult to justify.
We realize there is some debate about the meaning of the word "herein" in the Article I vesting clause: "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States." The traditional view is that the word "herein" is limited to Article I—if a power is not enumerated in Article I, then Congress lacks that power. Some scholars argue that "herein" should refer more broadly to the entire Constitution, and perhaps beyond the Constitution's text. Here, we take no position on that debate.
Rather, we note a contrast in the constitutional text distinguishing the Appointments Clause from the Article I vesting clause. In the Appointments Clause, the Constitution tells us that there are not any other officers of the United States provided for. Other officers of the United States are "not herein otherwise provided for." They do not exist. All of the Officers of the United States are provided for in Article II, Section 2. And they must be established "by law," that is, in a future statute. That's it. In Article I, Section 8, the powers that are "herein granted" refer to the powers that exist (someplace else in the Constitution). By contrast, the Appointments Clause's text explains that there are no "Officer of the United States" positions beyond Article II, Section 2.
Article I, Section 8 creates a positive implication; Article II, Section 2 creates a negative implication. Article II, Section 2 is a clear textual limitation on who holds the power to fill "Officer of the United States" positions. "Officer of the United States" positions may only be filled by the processes spelled out in Article II, Section 2. The "herein" language is not an indirect reference to an unknown category of "Officers of the United States" positions that are filled outside Article II, Section 2.
It follows that elected positions beyond the scope of Article II, Section 2 are not "Officers of the United States." Accepting the view that elected federal positions are "Officers of the United States," as that phrase is used in the Constitution, would imply not only that Mouat and Smith and a long line of U.S. Supreme Court cases, before and after Mouat and Smith, were wrongly reasoned, but that those decisions entirely misread the Constitution's text. And yet, if these decisions were so very wrong, where is the contemporaneous line of dissents and scholarly commentary explaining that they were wrong. How is it that no one noticed until circa 2020?
The better view is that Mouat and Smith and the Supreme Court's more recent decision in Free Enterprise Fund were correct, and that the Respondents (and their supporting Amici) in Trump v. Anderson are wrong. The President is not an "Officer of the United States" as that phrase is used in the Constitution of the United States.
Will the Supreme Court cast doubt on the constitutionality of the Presidential Succession Act of 1947?
The stakes in the Section 3 case are greater than most advocates have realized, or larger than what they have been willing to discuss in public. If the Supreme Court adopts the Amarian view, that there is no difference between an "Officer," and "Officer of the United States," and an "Office under the United States," the Justices will lend their imprimatur to the Amars' conclusion: the Presidential Succession Act is unconstitutional. There is much discussion about the importance of a peaceful transition of power. Yet, these discussions fixate on the transition from one president to another president, following an election. But what happens if there is a double vacancy? Remember when President Trump was hospitalized due to COVID, and Vice President Pence was exposed? At the time, the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, was a Democrat, and the Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, was a Republican.
Think about a double vacancy in that scenario for a few moments. Speaker Pelosi could have claimed the presidency under the statute, while Secretary of State Pompeo could have asserted—citing the Amars—that he was the real President because the statute's provision putting legislative officers in the line of succession was unconstitutional. Where would DOJ have come down on that issue? Could courts have declared actions taken by Pelosi or Pompeo as invalid?
Chaos would have ensued very quickly. For those keeping score at home, the Amars were silent about whether the Presidential Succession Statute was still unconstitutional when President Trump was in the hospital with COVID, and Vice President Pence had potentially been exposed.
However, if the Court agrees with our position—and explains that there is a difference between an "Office" and an "Officer of the United States"—that decision would undermine the Amars' intuition that all "Office"- and "Officer"-language in the Constitution means the same thing. The global distinction in the Constitution is between appointed and elected positions, as opposed to the Amars' purported global distinction between legislative and non-legislative positions. And in the process, the Supreme Court would place the Presidential Succession Act on a firm footing. The President is regularly described by the Constitution as holding an "Office." The Speaker is described as an "Officer." But in the Section 3 litigation, the Court need not address whether the Speaker is an "Officer" for Succession Clause purposes. We think he is. But that is not at issue in this litigation. The Section 3 litigation will be resolved if the Court recognizes that "Officer of the United States" has a singular, distinct meaning based on how that phrase is used in the Appointments Clause, the Commissions Clause, the Impeachment Clause, and the Oath Clause.
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Can we have a show of hands, please?
1. How many people can honestly say they've taken the time to read through this entire word salad? (Not I.)
2. Can anyone explain in English what the professor is trying to say (other than that he's smarter than everyone else in the legal profession)? (Not I.)
The article is a meticulous response to a textual argument, not a "word salad". It's like a reference work: you read the parts that you have questions about, and skim the rest.
As to what he's saying, here's the money quote: "The global distinction in the Constitution is between appointed and elected positions, as opposed to the Amars' purported global distinction between legislative and non-legislative positions." It's in their concluding paragraph.
This is how originalists argue. They argue over words and their meanings, in the context of history. Yes, that can get pretty involved, but frankly I think this is a far, far better way to analyze the Constitution than the other methods that have been tried.
I read about half of it and was getting drowsy (IANAL!), but I didn't have any problem following the argument itself, even if I do think it's the kind of quibbling that lawyers are famous for. Zero idea on how right any of it is.
Well first of all realize it's an academic cat fight that's been going on a while, and quite a lot of it has nothing to do with Trump v Anderson.
Second of all you aren't the audience.
Very definitely. My guess as to the primary targets of the arguments are the Supreme Court clerks, esp of the 6 Republican Appointed Justices. And, I think that the anti § 3 arguments are good enough to prevail. Maybe not compelling, but good enough.
Maybe if I chop things up, my browser won’t choke on the Reason code.
What I think is going to drive the decision by the majority is the list of horribles, by Petitioner and amici, that might happen if § 3 is allowed to keep Trump (or Biden) off the ballot in some states. It could get very messy, with Congress finally resolving the election, made esp messy since very possibly no candidate has a majority of electors. Moreover, half the country considers the installation of Biden illegitimate, after very obvious election fraud in Dem controlled big cities in 6 purple states. The Supreme Court ducked that, by refusing to hear the state v state case against those 6 states, on unique standing grounds, where they were the court with original and exclusive jurisdiction. Ducking it again could very easily permanently injure their credibility and soft power, and that of the entire Judicial Branch. The side that felt themselves disenfranchised in 2021, who have the bulk of over 400 million guns, and know how to use them, intentionally didn’t bring them to their 1/6/21 protest. Will they do it this time? Do Justices Roberts, Kavenaugh, and Barrett want to find out?
Another factor. Due Process was raised by Petitioners. Did CO provide sufficient Due Process to Trump and the at least 65 million voters who would likely vote for him. The CO SC only looked at the interests of the Electors, and found their streamlined 5 day hearing sufficient. They aren’t the only ones though with interests at stake here, and CJ Roberts has apparently pointed out that all of the stakeholders have to be protected. Which very likely means that CO provided (grossly) insufficient Due Process to protect these other interests. But how much more would be sufficient? A 10 day hearing? Limited discovery? Some witnesses? Etc. They would need to draw a bright line, or CO (or another state) would be back next month after 6 day hearing. They probably can’t dodge this, without the decision getting messy.
So, I predict a fairly minimalist decision, rejecting § 3 disqualification on one or more of these grounds:
1) the President and VP are not Officers, in regards to § 3, because they are elected and not appointed. Plus elsewhere (e.g. Impeachment Clause) those two offices are listed as covered, as well as Officers. Statutory Construction rules say that means that they aren’t then Officers.
2) § 3 is not self executing, and probably that only Congress is empowered to determine disability under § 3. That is a result of § 5, that gives Congress the power to enforce any of the sections of the 14th Amdt, plus the end of § 3 that gives Congress the power to remove disabilities. This CO case was seen by the bulk of Republicans in Congress as usurping their power under § 5 (see Ted Cruze Brief).
Going with one or both of these arguments would be fairly easy, on the part of the Supreme Court, and would allow them to duck responsibility if things go south this year. The Oath argument could possibly be easier, but would be extremely narrow, for example not preventing Biden from being removed from ballots on the grounds that he had given aid and comfort to our enemies (notably taking bribes from China with whom we have a cease fire, but not a peace treaty, from the Korean War >70 years ago).
1: The wild card here is the meaning of the word "insurrection" -- both in terms of Jan 6th and the Insurrection Act, which Trump has openly said he will use against BLM & ANNTIFA.
If SCOTUS rules that Jan 6th was not an Insurrection, or that Trump wasn't involved in the Insurrection portion of it (either one) then it doesn't have to address anything else.
2: As to China, during the Korean War we recognized Taiwan as the legitimate Chinese government -- remember that Nixon went to China 20 years later and we subsequently recognized the ChiComs, so I'd argue that changes things.
As opposed to the parade of horrible if Trump is on the ballot and gets elected.
You are a liar. You claim to be a lawyer. You might want to consider what is happening to some other lawyers who lie in this way about this thing. There was zero election fraud, and while there are indeed many many many stupid MAGA supporters, "half" the country does not think that.
The Texas suit was not about fraud. It does not allege any actual fraud.
Yes. Also, even if "voters who would likely vote for him" are entitled to any due process in this context, it would be the 1.3 million Trump supporters in Colorado, not random people from other states, who would be entitled to it.
Pompous self important ass outdoes himself.
I think people saw the folly of a "peaceful" protest on January 6th and fear that the next one will be anything but.
And all the election challenges were dismissed on either standing or another technicality -- none were decided on the merits. Hence there are no court decisions deciding the allegations ON THE MERITS.
There are roughly 30 court decisions deciding the allegations ON THE MERITS.
Give us the case cites.
Plus, it doesn’t matter. What does matter is that half the country “knows” that the election was stolen. They know about the counting being stopped almost simultaneously across the country in Dem controlled big cities in 5-6 swing states, with Trump safely ahead, the Republican poll judges sent home, then counting restarted, where Biden then picked up hundreds of thousands of votes. Of boxes, pallets, etc of ballots being wheeled in and counted. Of poll workers in Atlanta running ballots through counting machines time after time. They saw the videos. And as time has gone on, the evidence has mounted - for example, last week, expert testimony of how easy it was to defeat the security of Dominion machines.
We aren’t talking here about what I believe, but what half the voting public believes. CJ Roberts doesn’t know me, and doesn’t care. But I am suggesting that he probably does care what the 73 million Trump voters, who believe that they were disenfranchised by him last time, believe.
It's less than half. And they have joined a cult that accepts the bullshit (Bill Barr's words) that comes from Trump.
Well, you obviously don’t live in Trump Country. I do, and the anger is seething.
Don’t you live in Montana?
It's an anger born from Trump's bullshit.
“Don’t you live in Montana?”
Yes. But also Phoenix and Las Vegas. Vegas is the place where the feeling is the most intense. Montana is more complacent. The people there know that they are very well armed, and relatively safe. Just got rid of having a Dem Governor, etc. One more to go (Jon Testor). Everyone knows that the Dems in AZ will try to steal this election, as they did in 2020 and 2022. Can the corrupt Katy Hobbs, and her successor as Sec of State, pull it off again? But Las Vegas seems more energized for Trump. We shall see.
Las Vegas? It's the bluest part of Nevada.
And which of those is “Trump Country”, in your view? Las Vegas, which Trump lost by 9 points in 2020 and is currently represented in Congress exclusively by Democrats? Or Phoenix, the Biden-supporting capital of a state Trump single-handedly turned blue?
What does matter is that half the country “knows” that the election was stolen
If we kowtow to the deluded because we fear they may get violent, the country is already over.
Better to say no, we deal in actual facts and fuck off if you want us not to. And see if they're more than keyboard warriors.
as opposed to kowtow to the fascism violence by the govt?
No, that is not what the opposite of ignoring the desires of the deluded is.
One might ask why you are not leaving if you believe you live under a violent fascist government.
The answer is that you are not that deluded, just pissy.
The actual fact is that @Sarcastr0 supports putting political enemy into jail, which clearly indicts @Sarcastr0 is nothing but a NAZI.
You worry too much about what a bunch of worthless, delusional, antisocial bigots think.
We know facts don't matter to Bruce Hayden just as they don't to other MAGA people, but they're not usually so brazen as to say, that they don't matter just one sentence after demanding them.
Bruce: "Give us the case cites"
Issue is, every time Team Trump had the opportunity to introduce evidence of the things they said to you on Fox, Newsmax, and OANN, they declined. One of the better examples of that is a decision by conservative Federal District Court Judge and Trump appointee, Brett H. Ludwig. Judge Ludwig rejected the defense argument of lack of standing, and said he'd run the trial based of the merits of each side's argument, including any evidence Team Trump wished to introduce.
Andrew McCarthy, Former DoJ US Attorney, strong conservative, in most cases a strong Trump supporter (has provided some of the most credible defenses of Trump, and attacks on the Mueller investigation) described that in these four paragraphs:
For the full article including cites to the Ludwig decision, search on:
Stunning Passage from the Latest Court Rejection of Team Trump
National Review, ANDREW C. MCCARTHY, December 13, 2020
“I think people saw the folly of a “peaceful” protest on January 6th and fear that the next one will be anything but.”
I think that this is underestimated by the middle of the country. I don’t know how many times I have heard “He will be back!” Esp this last year.
Yeah, well, early in Obama's preidency they put up billboards of George W Bush's smiling face and the caption 'miss me yet?' Those didn't last, either.
"As opposed to the parade of horrible if Trump is on the ballot and gets elected."
We needed to destroy democracy in order to save it. The people just couldn't be trusted with electing their own president.
Bingo
That is indeed what the founding fathers thought, which is why they created an electoral college rather than providing for direct election of the president.
That's simply indirect democracy. Not eliminating it.
Do you support eliminating democracy to save it? Overriding the will of the people, if a select group of individuals believe it's necessary?
David Nieporent supports putting political enemy into jail. Any one supports this is by definition a NAZI.
“As opposed to the parade of horrible if Trump is on the ballot and gets elected.”
So, you want to protect the American voters from themselves by keeping Trump off the ballot, through some LawFare schemes, utilizing never before utilized Constitutional interpretations. I don’t see that going over well with the half the American people you are protecting from voting for Trump.
“ You are a liar. You claim to be a lawyer. You might want to consider what is happening to some other lawyers who lie in this way about this thing. There was zero election fraud, and while there are indeed many many many stupid MAGA supporters, “half” the country does not think that.”
Might as well throw in some threats against my livelihood while you are at it. Makes you look so virtuous.
“Yes. Also, even if “voters who would likely vote for him” are entitled to any due process in this context, it would be the 1.3 million Trump supporters in Colorado, not random people from other states, who would be entitled to it.”
There is some precedent to the contrary. Plus, you are forgetting Trump’s interest. You may not think that he deserves it, but 75 million American voters do. But even then, with your admission, CO Trump voters are due more Due Process than they got.
Going with one or both of these arguments would be fairly easy, on the part of the Supreme Court, and would allow them to duck responsibility if things go south this year.
Sure. For values of, "responsibility," which include neither the outrage of the non-MAGA majority of the nation, nor the judgment of history.
Hayden, do you think it is really wise for SCOTUS to decide a legal controversy on the basis of a hypothetical future policy outcome, while excluding from consideration its hypothetical future antithesis? If so, please explain how you evaluate the balance of the hypotheticals—with unrest and civil disorder from MAGA cranks as the extreme risk on one side, and the end of American constitutionalism as the extreme risk on the other.
And by the way, why doesn't risk of anti-MAGA unrest cancel from your equation the risk of MAGA unrest—leaving the issue to be decided as a matter of law, instead of as a matter of conjectured future outcomes?
It’s the “Because — TRUMP” folks who are jeopardizing American Constitutionalism.
The Constitution was written to prevent the exact sort of things that are being done to Trump — and he’ll be gone in 5 years regardless of what happens, but you won’t rebuild the Constitution that you have shredded in pursuit of him.
And at this point, I don’t think the anti-MAGA activists would fare well. Just a feeling…
And one other thing -- all it takes is a majority vote of Congress and a Trump signature to eliminate all of higher education as we know it. All they would have to do is (a) not reauthorize the Higher Ed Act, (b) eliminate administrative overhead on grants, and (c) make endowment income taxable under the IRS code.
That would be the end of the left in this country.
I don’t know about whether it is wise or not. Rather, my thesis is that CJ Roberts worries about the soft power that his branch of the government can wield. I think that he worked very hard to dodge the election fraud issue in 2021 for just that reason, twisting the arms of Justices Kavenaugh and Barrett to dismiss esp the state v state case on novel Constitutional grounds. But I also see this at work in other areas, where the Court will give conservatives a win (abortion, guns), followed by a duck benefitting the Dems (their recent border control decision).
I think here, he likely already sees that dodging the issue by not reversing on a statutory ground, as I suggest, would embroil his Court in the very messy adjudication of who wins and who loses the election this November. How much Due Process is due? Whose interests need to be protected? Who can determine Insurrection (or giving aid and comfort to our enemies)? If worse comes to worse, with no one getting a majority of the electoral college, how to determine the Presidency next year? Does he really want his Court playing king (or President) maker again?
We shall see.
“Election fraud” kooks are among my favorite culture war casualties.
These gullible, delusional assholes can’t die off fast enough.
Prof Blackman is not a sympathetic figure, but I shall attempt a sympathetic remark or two.
He is, shall we say, a middle ranking legal scholar at a middle ranking college. But a very hard working one, whose pen is never idle. All other things being equal, he is destined to collect his daily bread from the refectory of legal academia, until he retires at last into the obscurity which is his lot. (As it is, thank God, for most of us.)
But he has managed to leap upon a hobby horse which might just lead him to fame, or at least 15 minutes of it. Signing on to Seth Barrett Tillman's quixotic battle with the Constitution's regiment of officers, and loyally holding his shield, Blackman now finds himself with his adopted hobby horse actually running in a real race at the Supreme Court. Opinions will differ as to what odds this horse has, but even if it's an outsider, it is Blackman's big chance.
Of course he's all in, countering every threat to his horse, answering all arguments in the hope that a clerk to one of the Justices will pick up his points and that this will deliver victory. And fame. Possibly even fortune.
I agree with much of this, have a few comments.
Is it accurate to call South Texas a "middle-ranking college?"
I don't have a fine-grained understanding of law school rankings, but I thought that phrase defined, roughly, major state university schools.
I agree that he works hard and "his pen is never idle." The trouble is that so much of what his pen produces is not worth much. Maybe if he devoted more of his boundless energy to thinking, and less to endless posting he would do better.
I like the horse business.
Last time I checked the law school rankings, South Texas was ranked ahead of approximately five schools (among roughly 200). That is not a mid-ranked school. South Texas is one of the worst law schools in America. People should feel sorry for its students, although at least one of their problems is self-inflicted and they should have known better.
Cleverly left to the imagination of the reader is which rankings, how many years ago that may have been, and how many multiples of five Artie might still consider within the bounds of "approximately."
He's only off by a mere 7x per USNWR's latest rankings, so perhaps he feels that's close enough for horseshoes, hand grenades, and feverish screeds.
South Texas is not a well-regarded school, but Kirkland's a disingenuous troll. He knows that anyone reading "ranked ahead of approximately 5 of 200" would create the impression that it was ranked around 195th. But that's not true. In fact, USNWR doesn't individually rank the fourth tier schools, so it would be just as accurate to say that South Texas is ranked behind about 150 of 200 schools.
As Magister correctly notes below, the USNWR website does indeed provide individual rankings for all 198 law schools.
Well, they used not to. If they do now, that makes Kirkland even less correct!
It lists the last 17 in alphabetical order, all with ranks #180 to #196, and all seem to have a score of N/A.
"...but Kirkland’s a disingenuous troll. "
As are you and you didn't even bother to do your homework before commenting.
Aw, isn't that cute… I've got my own personal stalker.
Hardly.
In the 2023-2024 US News and World Report rankings, South Texas College of Law Houston tied for #162 out of 196. Near the top of the bottom fifth still doesn't make it middle ranking.
Depends of course on your definition of "middle," but we don't need to worry about that since I was only addressing Artie's "5 schools from the bottom" silliness.
Six to 12 months ago, South Texas was ranked approximately 195 of 200 schools. I linked to and republished that ranking several times. The reality -based world is not kind to South Texas, Prof. Blackman, or their uninformed and/ or lying defenders at this white, male, disaffected right-wing blog. South Texas is, has been, and almost certainly will continue to be a shitty school, with a low-quality faculty.
Carry on, flailing dumbasses.
Good lord, if that's true, they've skyrocketed over 15% in the rankings in just a few months! Blackman must really be turning the ship around.
There are multiple Internet archiving sites at your disposal to help you back that up, Bubba Gump. I'll even help get you started: the May 12, 2023 capture of the USNWR site shows... wait for it... #162, just like it does today.
So my odds are on you belching out another generic set of cut-and-paste insults and slinking away, or simply slinking away.
And equally as many times, I pointed out you were lying.
I should have said now, as I did then, that five schools were ranked lower than South Texas. You reluctantly acknowledged that point.
South Texas sucks So do this blog’s right-wing, faux libertarian, disaffected fans.
calling #162 "middle-ranking" is charitable at best.
“shall we say” is doing the work here.
Applications to Harvard have declined by 18%.
At this point, academia is in so much transition, that I don't think that ANYONE's ranking really means anything. Federal judges have expressed concern about Clerks from Yale -- if South Texas gets a reputation for more psychologically balanced graduates, 10 years from now, it could be highly ranked.
Have you ever even heard of Litchfield Law School? It once was highly rated, its graduates included Arron Burr and John Calhoun.
"Is it accurate to call South Texas a “middle-ranking college?”
Depends. There are a lot of potential measures that can be used.
One is first-time bar passage rates. South Texas sits at 77.82% according to the below chart. This particular chart is ranked by % above or below the state passage rate (since some state's bars are more difficult than others) and ranks South Texas as #96. Just below Pittsburg (#95, 76.47% pass rate), above South Carolina (#104, 76.88% pass rate).
So, I'd say "middle ranking" would be a fair assessment, looked at this way.
https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2023/03/law-school-rankings-by-first-time-bar-passage-rate.html
"All other things being equal"
He is likely getting a judicial nomination next GOP president.
He's going to have to get a haircut first....
Yikes ! Hardly a judicial temperament - though I suppose that is somewhat frowned on these days.
L, as we say, OL.
I don't join those who attempt to demean Josh for being employed by a low-ranking law school. Not everyone can start at the top. And it's simply true that law schools (if not academia in general) are uniformly left-biased and therefore unlikely to consider employing someone with his views on the Constitution on anything like an equal merit basis. I'm sure he's come to terms with that, just as I've come to terms with the fact that my NBA career was doomed before it started... (due to my height, of course!)
But he's definitely a fighter, and I'm sure he will move on up the ranks eventually. Whether this is his big break or not, we can only wait and see. And cross our fingers.
Well, it wasn't just my height that limited me to back-up point guard on my early 1970's small, rural, Idaho high school team. I mean, I may be short, but I'm slow!
Professor Blackman's word processor does for words what a food processor does for food.
While Blackman is everyone's favorite whipping boy, many/most of the OPs on this subject have been co-authored by Barrett-Tillman and that always seems to be overlooked. Why?
Conservatives don’t recognize or respect foreign law or foreign lawyers?
Harvard JD.
"everyone’s favorite whipping boy,"
Somin exists.
So does the woman who writes about on line dating.
why do you denigrate food processors?
No denigration intended. But you see what a food processor does to food. ☺
Just what it is supposed to do. Process it.
I don’t think you know what a word salad is. Or is that too many words for you?
Here ya go
Seems fair.
Only to the illiterate.
I know exactly what it means, thanks. And thanks for giving us another opportunity to be awestruck by the simplicity of your childish mind.
Still the anonymous keyboard tough guy.
I read about halfway through and then realized that Blackman is just filibustering. He's pulling random quotes from different people and claiming that if they disagree with each other on some minor point, then therefore Blackman must be right and they must all be wrong.
Blackman repeatedly pulls the, "They don't explain X" while failing to explain why his position makes any sense or has historical support. Like, the most fundamental point: why did the framers use secret code words that take hundreds of pages of scholarship to decipher?
Or what could possibly have motivated them to exempt the office of the President from Article XIV sec 3.
Perhaps Josh has made some argument addressing that somewhere in his voluminous bloviations. If so, perhaps someone could point that out.
The cited academics laid out one widely held theory about who is and its not an 'officer' of the government - and thus who sec 3 applies to.
The cited academics then wrote an amicus brief that is exactly opposite of their previous work in order to provide support for the 'Trump's not allowed to run for President' side.
They've not explained why its (D)ifferent in this situation.
That is not accurate. The inconsistency Blackman purports to identify is over whether state legislators are covered, not whether the president is.
While some of Blackman's piece introduces other folk and their argument - eg the Respondents - it is not the case that he is doing no more than setting different people's arguments against each other. However important or unimportant the particular point may be, he catches the Amars contradicting themselves.
This particular point doesn't refute their other particular argument that the President is an Officer of the US, but it does torpedo their authority as established experts on the constitutional world of officers, who have devised an all embracing scheme to identify who is an officer and who is not. Their scheme is sunk. They are of course welcome to change their minds over a quarter of a century, but they cannot then appeal to their quarter century long authority in this domain.
Presumably that is Blackman's aim - to undermine their authority.
BTW, if you want to read the brief filed by the Professors Amar, it's at https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-719/295994/20240118094034746_Trump%20v%20Anderson.pdf
The link posted by Blackman is broken.
Self-executing can only referrer to previous, of course, and thoroughly defined insurrection that is part of history and not one claimed informally by some, and certainly not for those who have not legally been held to such a standard, or which they have never been charged for let alone convicted for.
Self-executing is only for those to which the amendment was created for and not for any future actions unless specifically defined within S5 – this is the reason for it being written as such. However, S5 is the key for future implementation of sanctions, not
to past actions of which S3 was created for.
Only people born before the 14th Anendment was ratified automatically became citizens of the United States? The 14th Amendment wasn’t intended to apply automatically to any future people? People born in the United States today only become citizens if Congress chooses to enforce it?
Hey, that's not a bad idea - eliminating anchor babies...
There's no such thing as "anchor babies." Children born in the US don't anchor anyone else, and can be deported along with their parents. They can stay in the US if their parents can find someone for them to live with who will support and be legally responsible for them, but if they can't or don't then the child can be deported with the parents. This happens regularly and often. The citizen child can freely re-enter the US once they are of legal age if they have the paperwork to prove their citizenship.
Strictly speaking, no, they can't be deported. If the parents said, "No, we're not taking the kid," the government can't say, "We order the kid removed from the country."
On the other hand the parents can be deported.
A difficulty with Professor Blackman’s argument is that at the time of both the Founding and the 14th Amendment, Senators were not elected. They were chosen by state legislatures — that is, appointed. Senators only became elected after the 17th Amendment. Yet Professor Blackman has consistently taken the position that a senator is not an “officer” but holds a different kind of position, a “member” of the Senate, and is in this respwct identical to Representatives, who have always been elected. Thus the elected/appointed global distinction Professor Blackman is now raising does not appear consistent with his earlier position.
No, they were ELECTED by the State Legislatures -- as opposed to appointed by the Governor (singular person).
When did governors begin to appoint senators (to fill vacancies}?
Depends on the state constitutions, but those are EXCEPTIONS to the process, not the process.
There was no insurrection!
Certainly not. Confederates were peaceful people, exercising their constitutional rights. Don’t believe the mainstream media and their fake news about a so-called Civil War!
And the darkies were living very happily until the leftests and communist Biden supporters started inciting them.
And Lincoln was a RINO.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment, dipshit.
Since you are being intentionally obtuse I will correct my comment to read:
There was no insurrection on JANUARY 6 2021!
You have more courage than the Volokh Conspirators but are just as wrong as those cowards
The Confederates took up arms -- not just rifles but cannons -- and fired them. Killed hundreds of thousands of Federal soldiers.
Where are the cemeteries filled with the bodies of the Federal soldiers shot on January 6th?
If anything, it was more like John Brown's raid...
Regardless of what happens, by January of 2029, trump will not be President. "Because -- Trump" will no longer matter and yet we will still have to live with the wreckage created in the "get Trump" efforts.
Here you have two legal scholars who said "water is wet" back in 1995 and now are saying it isn't. "Because -- Trump."
I'd like to see SCOTUS say that Jan 6th wasn't an insurrection -- it wasn't -- and then throw the whole thing out on the grounds it wasn't an insurrection.
The Oath Keepers did something very insurrection-like culminating on January 6th, although none of them have been charged with insurrection. However, Donald Trump wasn't part of what they did.
There's a huge amount of guilt-by-association in the left's arguments about that day. "They were inspired by / wanted to help / may have heard Donald Trump. Therefore he masterminded everything!"
I'm more inclined to say it was a clusterf*ck by various Federal agencies not bright enough to share notes with each other so instead of taking turns doing stings, they all did them at the same time and place.
Kinda like a dozen different LEO groups each trying to catch arsonists by letting them light a small fire in the woods which could be easily extinguished -- except they all do it at the same time and suddenly have a dozen little fires becoming one big fire that becomes a major problem.
Maybe the Proud Boys (and other groups) did this on their own. Maybe they had help from governmental entities who may even have been well-intended. Either way, TRUMP didn't do it.
Generally law enforcement is ready to arrest people when there's a sting. But Donald Trump had his insurrectionists standing by before the election, lit the fires with his lies, and when they did what he wanted, he sat on his ass (watching and cheering the insurrection on) for longer than the Uvalde police waited.
I’m not going to bother engaging with the risible comparison of Nancy Pelosi pretending to soil herself to small kids getting shot like fish in a barrel, but I do have some higher-level questions:
1. How long do you believe Trump “sat on his ass”? Starting when; ending when?
2. What do you believe he did at that point such that he was no longer “sitting on his ass”?
3. How do you believe he “cheered the insurrection on” before that?
Actual quotes welcomed. Thx.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-capitol-probes-season-finale-focus-trump-supporters-three-hour-rage-2022-07-21/
He ended sitting on his ass with a video tweet at 4:17pm calling on his insurrectionists to go home: "So go home. We love you. You're very special." He went to the White House dining room before 1:30pm, and it is hard to imagine that he did not turn on the television there at that time.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/politics/what-we-learned-trump-187-minutes/index.html
Anyone can read the January 6th committee report and numerous other sources for more detail; more recently, Cassidy Hutchinson wrote that Trump was yelling "Hang" repeatedly as the insurrectionists were chanting "Hang Mike Pence". More likely, Life of Brian will quibble over word choice and ambiguity, while further characterizing the insurrection as "Nancy Pelosi pretending to soil herself".
So Trump was down with hanging the vice president? And what would then happen? No murder charges? And even if not, yet another impeachment wouldn't remove him for cheering the hanging?
This is a thin needle you thread to maintain disasterbation.
He was indifferent to what happened to Pence. He tweeted after the Capitol was broken into:
And the insurrectionists started chanting "Hang Mike Pence".
It would be so much easier for you cultists to read the January 6th committee report.
And when aides reported to Trump that they were doing so, he said something along the lines of "Maybe he deserves it."
Yeah, figured it was just going to be a bunch of airbrushed paraphrasing. But (and for now going with your suspension of disbelief that there was enough mobile bandwidth for anyone in that crowd to receive a video stream), it is good to confirm that your expectation was simply that he should have tweeted earlier. With that, here are some others you and the J6 kangaroozi report may have unintentionally omitted (which again, as text tweets also would have had much better odds of actually being received):
2:38pm: "Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!"
3:13pm: "I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!"
And LOL at "Cassidy Hutchinson said, years later, that she and no one else heard..." regardless of how the sentence ends.
Predictable quibbling from LoB, who has still presented no evidence that Trump was not sitting on his ass; he certainly could have sent the DC National Guard and didn't. Lots of witnesses were willing to testify about what Trump did and didn't do, and the people who called Cassidy Hutchinson a liar weren't willing to say so under oath.
https://newrepublic.com/post/177917/trump-january-6-tweet-peaceful-protest-defense-didnt-write-it
Yes, asking you for your standards first and then providing hard, incontestable facts your trusted sources just happened to omit that squarely satisfies those standards is “quibbling.”
But then, just for belt and suspenders, you… erm, “enhance” your standards, from “should have tweeted earlier telling them to stop” to “should have sent in the National Guard to ventilate them.”
And then cap it with another “anonymous sources” hearsay orgy.
It’s sad you have to twist yourself in such knots to preserve your worldview.
LoB as usual has next to nothing to back up his claims; the tweets mentioning "peaceful" were sent after the one that prompted "Hang Mike Pence" chants and before he finally told his rioters to go home. He had to be pressed by his aides and family to include "peace" in the tweets. Telling them to leave was the bare minimum, and it took over two hours to do that. Now he wants to quibble that my list of Trump failures on January 6th is too long.
Some more documentation:
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/02/trumps-dubious-claim-about-hidden-tweets-exonerating-him-for-jan-6-capitol-attack/
Again, read the January 6th committee report.
OK. "Trump lit fires with his lies."
I'm not even getting into *either* the First Amendment issues *or* the very real possibility that Trump wasn't lying -- you want to apply this to the Dems?
ERIC HOLDER found that "hands up, don't shoot" was a lie in Ferguson. Bill Clinton said that "if I liked my health plan, I could keep it."
FDR said (running for re-re-election in 1940) "I tell you time and time again, I shall not send your boys to fight in a foreign war."
It's pretty clear that Lyndon Johnson lied about Vietnam.
And the Dems protested the election of EVERY Republican President in the past 30 years. Remember Florida 2000? Or 2016?
If you want to criminalize lying, you're going to have to throw all the Democrats in prison...
Many intelligent, informed people have trouble telling the difference between Bill Clinton and Barack Obama.
I guess you still have all the opinions you had in 1995.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..." Fits Josh, I think.
If that kind of "inconsistency" is all Blackman has to refute the Amars, he's digging awfully deep.
"Federal reconstruction authority"; Is that legalese for "We won, you lost, sucks to be you."? I think it is.
After all, when you're asking under what constitutional authority somebody did something, "federal legislation" just kicks the can down the road, it's not an answer to the question.
Remember that there was a political decision to END Reconstruction.
"it's not an answer to the question"
I think that is the whole point. Blackman topples Baude and Paulsen's attempt to show a precedent of self executing enforcement of section 3 by demonstrating that it does not actually reflect self-executing implementation of Section 3 if the Amars ideas are to be creditted. Blackman focuses on the extent to which Baude and Paulsen suggest that an executive administrator of reconstruction in Virginia barred oath breakers from state legslatures meaning that those are officers for the purposes of Section 3, yet the Amars have averred to the contrary. Indeed, on one of these recent podcasts Akhil does not distance himself from but embraces the distinction between legislative positions as "public trusts" and executive and judicial positions including the presidency as offices. Blackman is correct that he is either coy or has overlooked the extent to which this undermines a strand of the Baude Paulsen argument on self execution.
That said, the significant tradition of preliminary and alternative constitutional interpretation and decision by the people and politicians outside the supreme court or inferior federal courts suggests to me that the Colorado undertaking, and even the Maine case, are proper efforts/fora to consider Section 3 implementation and perhaps do not even raise a federal question since these are state elections. But a faulty reliance on federal jurisprudence in the decision of such case, or the denial of due process in the proceeding might give rise to interposition of the US Supreme Court.
Due process seems a much more likely ground for Colorado to be overturned. A congressional report from a hostile committee; a sociologist expert on extremism; what Trump failed to do ala the final seinfeld episode–this is the quintessential cocktail of speculation without a jury. I think it manifestly suspect that the process is short of what was due and that avoidance of taking such a decision would have been proper given the ability of congress to enforce section 3 at any time up to and including the counting of electoral votes (perhaps this line of argument cuts too close to the notion that Trump's camp had about theories for preventing the likely outcome of counting electoral votes).
In any event, this finding of insurrection was essentially a kangaroo court from what I can see. This is a Buck v Bell circumstance: there was process, but it does not rise to the gravity of the circumstance. To me, Bell is a hollow and discredited if not overturned precedent that sounds the alarm bell. sorry 🙂
That said, is access to the presidential ballot a right of the sort that would implicate the most significant procedural requirements? and or does that right, if it exists, belong to voters, electors, or elected officials and not necessarily to candidates?
On the applicability to the president as officer, I won't copy Amar's gimmick of sweeping aside objections to his position as "absurd". Indeed, if his position is so unassailable, there is no need for that rhetorical excess. I do think the balance of the arguments favor the notion that the President is an Officer; but to argue to the contrary is hardly absurd when considering the various legitimate strains of argument, .e.g., the President was explicitly included in draft versions of Section 3 ; references to office and officer are not consistent in various portions of the 14th amendment and the rest of the Constitution; and, to the extent Amar himself contends that the drafters of the 14th amendment were purposeful and not lazy, inartful or neglectful, it is absurd to maintain that it is absurd to wonder if the President is actually included. Well OK, I think I violated my proposition that I wouldn't call Amar's arguments absurd 🙂
One place on this presidential application that Blackman's argument is clever, not absurd, and yet unavailing upon more serious consideration, are the attempts to distinguish the different incantations of collections of oath takers, oath breakers, etc.–esp. the idea of focusing on "established by law" as meaning exclusively "established by statute". In looking for precedent, Blackman cites Office of Pers. Mgmt. v Richmond for the proposition that "by law" requires appropriation by statute. But it does not per se follow that "by law" means only by statute and excludes the constitution as the highest law. Rather, the constitution does not propose to make appropriations, so in the cited case regarding appropriations it was natural to articulate that "by law" meant by statute, in context without meaning the "by law" excludes constitutional provisions.
Ironically, while I think the Amars have the balance of the argument that the Presidency is included as an office to which an oath breaker may not accede, they spend an inordinate amount of time calling the idea that the president is not included "absurd". This ipse dixit actually makes their argument weaker, not stronger.
Much like the argument about the torture memos that never happened, it was simply conclusory value judgments that the memos were outside the overton window for legal discussion. When you look for the evidence of this in the posts of folks that Amar might call experts, say Marty Lederman, it mostly boils down to "torture sucks" and "everyone already knows Yoo got it wrong"–not the distasteful business of figuring out what line represents torture, who makes that decision and are there any exigent circumstances under which the standard could be foregone.
Likewise, the inclusion of the President as Officer in Section 3 seems a much closer call than Amars let on. I don't fault states for considering implementation, but I think the manner in which Colorado has done so is insufficient. And ironically the Colorado district court highlighted this by inverting its decision–finding Section 3 inapplicable to the president although finding the president had engaged in insurrection.
I think it simply suspect that the process of declaring Trump an insurrectionist was sufficiently robust to warrant an implementation of Section 3. Janurary 6th was "insurrection" in the manner that the current border crisis constitutes an "invasion", i.e. , rhetorically. If it does constitute an invasion and state officials have the executory power to declare what to some constitutes the obvious, the federal government is not discharging its duty to protect the state of Texas under the constitutions guaranty clause. These circumstances are quite parallel in metaphor and it will be interesting to see if there is consistency among commentators in accepting the decisions of state process to execute federal constitutional provisions.
"Due process seems a much more likely ground for Colorado to be overturned."
I agree. The Court will not want to immunize Presidents against Section 3, they will not want to decide the factual question of Trump's guilt, and they won't want Section 3 disqualification to become a routine political tactic.
The simplest way to meet all these objectives is due process: Simply declare that federal insurrection law IS Section 3 enabling legislation, and that the required due process is, thus, a criminal conviction for insurrection in federal court.
This doesn't get Trump entirely off the hook; The DOJ could indict him the next day. But it satisfies their primary objectives.
"The Court will not want to immunize Presidents against Section 3"
Well... They won't want to make that call, if they can avoid it.
On the other hand, if the majority of the country elects someone president, and a motivated prosecutor, judge, and 12 people on a jury decide otherwise...
Not sure the SCOTUS wants to definitively answer that particular question in favor of the 14 people against the 80+ million other people. At least not before it actually happens.
"I don't agree with the evidence" or "I would draw different conclusions from the evidence" or the like are not due process arguments.
Vagueness Doctrine.
Edit. Since section 3 is after section 1, in the 14th amendment, Due Process may not apply. Interesting wrinkle. Or it may, as it was all ratified together.
Amendments are not ordinarily construed such that one part of the amendment invalidates another part. Not unless it specifically says so or if the two parts are utterly incompatible.
David is not saying due process doesn't apply.
I don’t see that at all. If it had import that § 1 came before § 3, then it would still apply to § 3. And, of course, by necessity, the entire 5 sections of the 14th Amdt were enacted at the same time.
No. The argument is that a 5 day hearing, where the stake holders were not allowed to cross examine witnesses, call their own witnesses, engage in discovery, etc, where the findings of the J6 committee (which also didn’t allow the Republican stakeholders to cross examine witnesses, call their own, etc) were allowed into evidence as a Hearsay Exception, as well as a sociology prof purporting to read Trump’s mind, etc, deprived Trump and other stake holders adequate Due Process.
My memory is that the CO SC was able to accept this minimal level of Due Process, because the only parties that would be deprived by the ruling would be yet-to-be-named Trump Electors. But arguably, the stakes are much higher, and thus significantly more Due Process is required. Obviously, Trump has an interest in the litigation. But so do 1.5 or so million Trump voting Coloradans, and >75 million Trump voters nationwide this year.
You're lying again. Why do you think you should be entitled to practice law if you are willing to lie about such important matters? If you are, why should anyone assume anything you ever file with a court or agency isn't fraudulent?
Trump was allowed to do all of the things you claim he "Was not allowed to" do.
“That said, the significant tradition of preliminary and alternative constitutional interpretation and decision by the people and politicians outside the supreme court or inferior federal courts suggests to me that the Colorado undertaking, and even the Maine case, are proper efforts/fora to consider Section 3 implementation and perhaps do not even raise a federal question since these are state elections. But a faulty reliance on federal jurisprudence in the decision of such case, or the denial of due process in the proceeding might give rise to interposition of the US Supreme Court.”
I don’t think that the Court can ignore the federalism aspects, unless they are going to overturn on other grounds. The brief by Ted Cruze and the bulk of the Republican Members of Congress squarely addresses this subject. § 5 gives Congress the power to enforce the other sections of the 14th Amdt (obviously, including § 3). Not Congress and the states. Only Congress. And allowing states to enforce § 3, absent legislation enacted by Congress, is (in their view) a usurpation of their power, by the states.
What do you think about the federal insurrection statutes that Congress had enacted before the 14th Amendment was drafted?
Was Section 3 some kind of admission that Congress had no power to make insurrection illegal before that point?
"Was Section 3 some kind of admission that Congress had no power to make insurrection illegal before that point?"
They had plenty of power to make insurrection illegal. They lacked the power to make it a disqualification for public office, as the qualifications for public office at the federal level are constitutional, and at the state level, not subject to federal legislation.
The problem that I see with Due Process is that it is messy. If the CO SC isn’t reversed on other grounds, the US SC has to determine whether sufficient Due Process was provided. And to get there, they must determine who the relevant stakeholders are, and the importance of their interests. The CO SC only really looked at the interests of the yet-to-be-named Trump electors, whose interests, at this point are almost nonexistent. They ignored the interests of Trump, 1.5 million CO Republicans, and likely >75 million Trump voters nationwide this year. So, before determining how much process is due, the Court would have to determine whose interests needed to be protected by the hearing, and how important those interests were to them. Then, after that, they would need to do some line drawing, so that CO wasn’t back next month after a 10 day kangaroo court hearing. Messy, and best avoided.
Which is why I suggested above that the real reason driving the decision (to reverse) are the horribles that plausibly could happen, and would require the US SC to again play king (President) maker. If CO can remove Trump electors, for his alleged insurgency, then why couldn’t Red States remove Biden and his electors on the grounds that he had given aid and comfort to our enemies (China) by taking bribes from them? Don’t worry. It’s already in the works across the country.
That’s why I am predicting reversal on either that the Presidency is not covered by § 3, and/or that § 3 is not self executing, or at least that only Congress can determine the process to prevent a President from serving under § 3. Both fairly straightforward and relatively easy and clear cut.
Has anyone compared the language of the Confiscation Act of 1862 with Section 3? Or does it mater?
Facts matter?
No -- "It's Trump" and nothing else does.
The damage these schmucks are doing to the rule of law in this country is scary....
>acknowledge and address the contradictions and tensions across their own publications
We know why already.
1. Its **TRUMP!!**
2. And its (D)ifferent.
Academic lawyers aren't above partisan-politics.
The cited 1974 case is significant. Also, the King is neither minister nor courtier; however, the monarch does appoint, dismiss, and swear in all government ministers and state secretaries (that is, all "Officers under" him).
mydisplayname, not in the U.S.
Monarchs elsewhere may be sovereign, or enjoy figure-head pretensions to sovereignty. In the U.S. the jointly sovereign People replaced all that.
An oath to support the People's Constitution—their sovereign decree empowering and limiting government—is an oath to support not government, but instead to support the People themselves—including especially an obligation to support the People against government, if it ever happens that government becomes a rival for sovereignty.
That happened on J6.
J-6 was a frat party by people old enough to know better.
What scares me is if we ever see some of the things that have happened in Columbia, and now are happening in Mexico.
That's what happens when you lose the concept of "rule of law."
Hi, I’m not a legal scholar, but I’m interested in this case (as a non-American) and have a question related to it: Just as a birth certificate is required to determine someone’s age, wouldn’t a conviction in a separate criminal court case involving insurrection charges be essential for applying Section 3? Relying on media sources to determine that is akin to judging someone’s age by their appearance.
Sworn testimony from Trump's associates, given before Congress, is not a, "media source," even if media you distrust quote it. If that testimony is introduced as evidence in a state court proceeding, and Trump, given a chance to rebut does not do so, to what do you object?
"Just as a birth certificate is required to determine someone’s age, wouldn’t a conviction in a separate criminal court case involving insurrection charges be essential for applying Section 3?"
Pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment, § 5, Congress could require criminal conviction as a prerequisite to application of § 3. Congress, however, has not done so.
Disqualification under § 3, in and of itself, is a civil disability. The constitution does not declare rebellion or insurrection to be a crime. Congress has done so by way of a statute, 18 U.S.C. § 2383, that has multiple, material differences from § 3 disqualification, which differences I have identified numerous times on prior comment threads.
And SCOTUS is going to have to define what is (and is not) a "rebellion" or "insurrection" -- either now or a few years from now when Red State authorities (particularly in Purple states) start disqualifying all the Democrats under your star chamber standards.
Although if Trump is not permitted to run, I think there will be a revolution. It's bad enough that the Dems rigged the 2020 election, but to do this now will be beyond incendiary. And the thing about revolutions is that they often just sorta happen as the corrupt existing regime stumbles into them. Batista in Cuba, the Shah in Iran, it was their incompetence and arrogance that did them in, neither the Cuban nor Iranian people realizing that what would come next was actually way worse.
A lot of people are going to lose their faith in the American System if anyone isn't allowed to run for President, and the costs of that will be far worse than I think the "But -- TRUMP" folks can possibly imagine....
SCOTUS will consider whether the Supreme Court of Colorado correctly defined "insurrection" and what constitutes "engag[ing]" therein. (Rebellion is not at issue here.)
If SCOTUS applies different definitions, the remedy would be remand for further fact finding under the appropriate standards.
Also, he's wrong when he says that a birth certificate is required to determine someone's age. A birth certificate would almost certainly be sufficient (though, think about the Birthers), but it's not necessary.
Short answer is...depends.
Some people think exactly as you so. For example, the Attorney General of the United States under the last administration. A criminal conviction for insurrection is required. Congress specifically wrote laws to empower section 3 of the 14th amendment which require a criminal conviction.
Other people think...no. They can just call something an insurrection, whatever strikes their fancy. And then they can disqualify whoever they want, based on that.
"They can just call something an insurrection, whatever strikes their fancy. And then they can disqualify whoever they want, based on that."
Uh, no. Whatever tribunal considers a disqualification challenge would need to determine, based on applicable legal authorities, what constitutes an insurrection -- as both the Colorado District Court and the Colorado Supreme Court did here. Whether a lower court applied the correct definition is reviewable on appeal.
By way of analogy, 18 U.S.C. § 2383 contains no definition of "insurrection." In the case of a criminal prosecution under that statute, the trial judge would instruct the jury on the meaning of the term, based on applicable legal authorities.
And what tribunal did Maine use exactly?
The Secretary of State. Google is your friend.
A tribunal of one...who depends on...whatever they feel like.
Have you read the Maine Secretary of State's decision? Yes or no?https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24245388/read-maines-secretary-of-state-rules-to-remove-trump-from-2024-ballot.pdf The Secretary set forth her reasoning in detail, based on evidence adduced before her.
"A criminal conviction for insurrection is required. Congress specifically wrote laws to empower section 3 of the 14th amendment which require a criminal conviction."
That, Armchair, is a flat out lie.
Please cite by number the federal statute(s) that you claim require a criminal conviction for a § 3 disqualification.
18 U.S. Code § 2383
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States"
A law which specifically empowers the provisions of section 3.
But, perhaps you'd like to argue that the government doesn't need a criminal conviction to put the penalties of 18 U.S. Code § 2383 into place?
I'd love to hear that argument. Please, go ahead.
Sigh. Of course the government needs a criminal conviction to put the penalties of 18 USC § 2383 into place. But it doesn't need a criminal conviction to put the remedies of Amendment 14, § 3 into place.
The fact that the two may overlap is utterly irrelevant. If you fail to pay taxes, the government can prosecute you for tax evasion, and put the criminal penalties for failing to do so in place (which includes collecting the taxes owed). Or the government can come after you civilly for tax evasion, and put the civil remedies for tax evasion into place (which includes collecting the taxes owed).
No, what I argued is that " Congress specifically wrote laws to empower section 3 of the 14th amendment which require a criminal conviction"
Which they specifically did, as mentioned above. For which I was called a liar.
Whether or not there may or may not be other mechanisms does not make the statement I made incorrect.
You lied when you stated that “A criminal conviction for insurrection is required. Congress specifically wrote laws to empower section 3 of the 14th amendment which require a criminal conviction.” Now you double down on that lie. Congress has done nothing of the sort.
Not sure what you’re complaining about.
1. Congress wrote 18 U.S. Code § 2383 2. That law requires a criminal conviction. 3. That law disqualifies individuals from office.
Are you going to argue that law does not empower the provisions of the 14th amendment, section 3?
Or are you parsing the statement incorrectly, by dropping off the first sentences. “Some people think exactly as you so. For example, the Attorney General of the United States under the last administration. A criminal conviction for insurrection is required. ”
If it's the latter, feel free to apologize for your confusion.
18 U.S.C. § 2383 defines a criminal offense. Disqualification from holding any office under the United States is part of the criminal punishment, in addition to imprisonment and/or a fine.
Disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is a civil disability, akin to occupational debarment.
No matter how many times you declare your conclusion, we'll continue noting that simply declaring it so doesn't prove it.
In 1870 Congress enacted a law providing for a civil process for disqualification under Section 3. It was repealed in 1948.
While that law was in effect, it was indeed a civil matter. Now the only enabling legislation for Section 3 is the criminal statute, so it's a criminal matter.
Note that, even when that 1870 law was in effect, it was a federal writ of quo warranto, brought by federal prosecutors. The 1870 Enforcement act actually affirmatively denied state courts jurisdiction over such matters.
The 1948 criminal statute is not enabling legislation for disqualification under § 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment; it instead defines a substantive criminal offense independent of and separate from § 3 disqualification, which has always been, and remains, a civil disability. I have pointed out multiple distinctions between the two on numerous occasions, and you have not cited contrary authority at any point.
The same conduct may give rise to criminal culpability/imposition of punishment and a civil disability such as occupational debarment. See, e.g., Hudson v. United States, 522 U.S. 93 (1997).
§ 2383 does indeed require a criminal conviction in order to apply § 2383. But § 2383 is not a "law to empower section 3 of the 14th amendment."
Contrast it with the 1870 Act's relevant provisions:
It explicitly refers to the 14th amendment, rather than just (as § 2383 does) sound similar to the 14th amendment. You'll note, however, that neither provision I quoted says that this statute is what makes people ineligible. It treats the amendment as self-executing in terms of making people ineligible, and provides remedies and procedures for implementing it.
I have explained time and time and time again the differences between disqualification as a civil disability under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 and disqualification as part of a criminal penalty under 18 U.S.C. § 2383. I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. Nevertheless, at the risk of casting pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6), I shall explain one more time.
An essential element of disqualification under § 3 is that the putative office holder have previously taken an oath to support the Constitution. By contrast, 18 U.S.C. § 2383 applies across the board, regardless of whether the accused has taken a prior oath.
Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove a disability under § 3. Congress has no power to remove any part of a criminal judgment imposed by an Article III federal court. Only the President can do that, through his power to issue pardons and reprieves.
Disqualification under § 2383 applies only to federal office. Disqualification under § 3 applies to both state and federal offices.
If disqualification under § 3 were a criminal penalty, it could not have been applied ex post facto to ex-Confederates for conduct occurring prior to ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868. The inability to do that would have defeated the very raison d'être of § 3 of the Amendment. It follows that disqualification under § 3 is a civil disability and not a criminal penalty.
As the Sesame Street jingle goes, one of these things is not like the other.
You're trying too hard, because you screwed up when you said I was a liar.
The facts are true.
" Congress specifically wrote laws to empower section 3 of the 14th amendment which require a criminal conviction”
Whether or not there may or may not be other mechanisms does not make the statement incorrect. Whether or not Congress expanded the people who might be caught under such a provision does not make it incorrect.
The law empowers the provisions of Section 3, and requires a criminal conviction. The statement, as it stands is correct.
When I challenged you to cite the federal statute(s) that you claim require a criminal conviction for a § 3 disqualification, you cited only 18 U.S.C. § 2383, a criminal statute of general application which is separate and distinct from § 3, as I have explained in detail upthread.
As Ron White is fond of saying, you can't fix stupid.
Determining whether a government imposed restriction for conduct occurring prior to adoption of the regulatory scheme is civil or criminal for purposes of constitutional ex post facto prohibitions considers at least seven factors borrowed from double jeopardy analysis. Smith v. Doe, 538 U.S. 84, 97 (2003). These include:
Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez, 372 U.S. 144, 168-169 (1963) (footnotes omitted).
The Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 imposes no physical restraint, and so does not resemble the punishment of imprisonment, which is the paradigmatic affirmative disability or restraint. Smith v. Doe, supra, 538 U.S. at 100. It is similar in operation to occupational debarment, which has historically not been viewed as punishment. Hudson v. United States, 522 U.S. 93, 100 (1997). That the conduct for which debarment is imposed may also be criminal is insufficient to render the sanctions criminally punitive. Id., at 94.
The language of § 3 does not include a scienter requirement. Debarment sanctions admittedly will deter others from emulating Donald Trump's conduct, a traditional goal of criminal punishment. But the mere presence of this purpose is insufficient to render a sanction criminal, as deterrence "may serve civil as well as criminal goals." Hudson, at 105, quoting United States v. Ursery, 518 U.S. 267, 292 (1996).
Let's add on one other piece that occurs to me. The phrase "under the United States".
Are state level officials considered "under the United States"? Or does that phrase only apply to Federal officials?
If Sec. 3 is non-self-executing, can Congress repeal the enforcement legislation for Sec. 1 and make that non-self-executing, too?
Please don't give them ideas.
I think Blackman’s analysis of the Appointments Clause went a bit off at his second point – where he gets into the meaning of :
“he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law”
To a non lawyer, such as myself, the meaning of the bolded bit is (fairly) straightforward. We’re given a list of Officers (ie Ambassadors etc) and then the bolded bit adds on all other Officers of the US
(a) whose Appointment are not herein otherwise provided for, and (b) which shall be established by Law
I agree with Blackman that by Law means by statute. And I agree that “herein” could apply to Art II or to the whole constitution. But let’s stipulate the latter to give the President is an Officer of the US argument its best shot. And let’s stipulate that the President is appointed for the same reason.
So the President’s appointment IS herein otherwise provided for, but it it is not established by Law. Thus the President (and VP) could be an Officer of the US, but not the sort included in the sweep up bit of the Appointments Clause. ie because he fails the “established by Law bit” he therefore fails the double condition joined by “and’ and so, even if he is an Officer of the US, he falls outside the rule that might otherwise require him to nominate and appoint himself (and the VP.)
So if you grant the herein stipulation (which i am inclined to do) and the President is appointed stipulation (which I am certainly not) it’s not obvious to me that the Appointments Clause is necessarily a fly in the Amars ointment, as to whether he could be an Officer of the US.
The President and VP are not appointed, but rather elected (by Electors, who in recent years are themselves elected). Only the President, Congress, and the President’s Principal Officers (appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate) can appoint officers.
Only the President, Congress, and the President’s Principal Officers (appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate) can appoint officers.
And the Courts of Law.
The only other offices whose method of selection is "herein" provided for (in the Constitution) would be President, VP, and the Speaker, PPT, and "other officers" of Congress. So "appointment" has to be a general term encompassing selected, chosen, elected, etc. in the specific provisions talking about each of those offices. Otherwise the otherwise-herein clause wouldn't cover anybody, it would be superfluous.
The President and VP are not appointed
I agree, but that is not the point I'm arguing about.
The question is - what, if anything, does the Appointments Clause tell us that might help us answer the question whether the President is an Officer of the United States. Blackman thinks it tells us lots. I don't.
And that is because the Appointments Clause only requires the President to nominate and appoint various named classes of officer (eg Ambassadors) plus a catch all class of "all other Officers of the Unted States" who meet BOTH of two conditions :
(a) their appointments are not herein otherwise provided for and
(b) their appointments (ie the offices that they are being appointed to) are established by law (ie by statute.)
So, how would the application of this clause work differently if the President was an Office of the United States, or if he was not ?
If he was not an Officer of the US, he would fall outside the catch all clause. And so we would not expect to see him nominating and appointing himself to the Presidency. And in practice, we don't. So practice is consistent with him not being an Officer of the US.
But if he ws an Officer of the US what would we expect to see ? Well his appointment (ie his office) is not established by law (ie by statute.) Therefore even if he was an Officer of the US he would fail condition (b) above, and thus he would not be a member of the class of Officers of the US who the President is required to nominate and appoint. So we would not expect to see the President nominating and appointing himself. And we don't. So the practice is also consistent with him being an Officer of the US.
Note we haven't even needed to consider whether he is elected or appointed to reach this conclusion. Because his position is established by the Constitution not by statute. Thus he will always fail condition (b).
I have no comment on the debate between various sec 3 scholars on whose positions changed and when or for what reasons.
I was thinking one of the easiest ways for the Sup Ct to dodge deciding all these admittedly difficult questions was to, as others have suggested, say that CO didn’t afford enough due process. So reading Trump’s brief I saw they spent some words taking the CO district court to task for not following the CO election statute’s strict guidelines. Which is somewhat of an odd argument to make when arguing you weren’t give enough process to say the court gave the parties more time than the statute contemplated.
But then the Trump challengers brief says that the Court relaxed the guidelines at Trump’s request. And cite to the trial court record. I don’t have access to that record but presumably its some kind of motion to extend deadlines to prepare motions to dismiss or similar.
And I keep seeing repeatedly the claim that Trump [or the colorado republican party] weren’t allowed discovery, etc… and again the respondents brief has a somewhat fatal rejoinder that ALL of that and more was offered to team Trump and they refused. So that would set up the very odd situation where team Trump is asking the Sup Ct to reverse on lack of due process but where the lack of process is that parties own fault. And now I suspect if that is true, and i have no reason at this juncture to think its not, Trump’s legal team may have fkd him out of his best hope of getting a reversal. Which seems to be par for the course for Trump’s legal teams of late. But dang. Maybe the US Sup Ct will have to decide the ‘hard’ questions after all. They will of course have access to the full record on appeal and everything filed in the dist court will be in it, including filings by team Trump asking for extensions of time and the transcript of the trial court judge offering team Trump the ability to take depositions etc...
Team Trump made no proffer is the state courts as to what they expected to inquire about if discovery had been granted. That failure likely has waived any complaint at this juncture.
The Petitioners sought leave from the District Court to take Donald Trump's deposition, which the District Court denied. That refusal inured to Trump's benefit. He is facing criminal prosecution in two courts for, among other things, the events of January 6, 2021. Had he been deposed in the Colorado proceedings, Trump would have faced the Hobson's Choice of giving testimony which could be offered against him in the criminal proceedings or asserting his Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination on a question by question basis, from which the factfinder in the civil proceeding could have drawn a negative inference against Trump.
That all makes sense; as regards Trump himself. The brief for the challengers goes into more detail on the other witnesses [lay witnesses and expert] as well as documentary exhibits and whatever else they planned to introduce at the hearing itself. And those other witnesses who did testify at the hearing would not be suffering under the same Hobson's Choice Trump would have been. Reading Trump's brief as a stand alone document all that can be concluded is that it is rather misleading about the procedural history in the district court. Which is a silly thing to mislead about because all their claims can be fact checked by looking at the record on appeal.
Big picture; I suppose at this point we wait for oral argument and see what types of questions the Justices pose during argument to see if they are leaning one way or another. Oral argument of course is not always an accurate predictor of where the opinion will go but usually you get some inklings or tea leaves of where they are focused.
Section 3 of the 14th amendment applied to those who served in the Confederacy during the Civil War and was removed by the Act of Oblivion in 1896. Apparently, they do not teach that in law school.
During that time, it was claimed by Jefferson Davis, who had been President of the Confederate States of America (1861- 1865), and who had in 1845 been a member of the National Congress, that the punishment specified in this section, which prevented him from ever holding any office, National or State, superseded in his case the punishment for treason which Congress had axed and that therefore the indictment charging him with treason must be quashed. The point was argued, but before it was decided by the court, a proclamation of general amnesty was issued by the President, and later the indictment was dismissed.
On Christmas day, 1868, President Johnson issued a general proclamation of amnesty, granting unconditionally and without reservation to all who had been engaged in the Southern cause, a full pardon.
It was not until June 6, 1898, that Congress removed the last remnant of this disability. On March 31, 1896, Congress repealed an earlier act forbidding that anyone who had left the army or navy of the United States to aid the Confederacy should ever hold place in the army or navy again. But the Act of Oblivion came two years later, when the disability imposed by the Fourteenth Amendment was removed as to all. War with Spain had begun in April of that year. Among the most eager volunteers were elderly Southerners who had served as soldiers or officers in the Confederate army. General Joseph Wheeler, a noted cavalry leader of the South, and a son of Robert E. Lee were among those to receive military commissions from President McKinley, the Commander in Chief, who had served in the Union army in the Civil War.
So, section 3 of the 14th amendment would not apply now it would seem. I have yet to read anything about the Act of Oblivion being mentioned in any of the Amicus briefs.
Once again, some members of our Congress, (among others) at the expense and to the embarrassment of the American people, have made asses of themselves. Hopefully our High Court will settle this accordingly.
Can you clarify what you mean by sec 3 not applying now? Are you arguing that it only applied to those who took part in the civil war? Because of all the arguments on this issue [pro trump or not] all seem to agree it applies to the civil war but was written to also include future insurrections. And that this intent to apply to future insurrections as well is documented amongst those responsible for drafting it and debating it. I.e, of all the things in dispute on this issue, of which there is plenty, this is the one thing that wasn't in dispute.
It's correct that the Fourteenth Amendment seems to assume state legislators were covered under "any office," and nobody at the time disputed that. This hardly strengthens Josh's argument. Rather, it shows that in 1868 the plain colloquial meaning of "office" as we'd use it today was more established and the default meaning. The only concessions to it as some kind of term of art excluding legislators and electors (or anybody else) was to accommodate what was already in the text from 1787, the explicit language of the incompatibility clauses for members of Congress and the Electoral College. There is no equivalent incompatibility clause in the Constitution about state legislators, just like there isn't for the President, so there was no reason to think they didn't fall under the general catch-all.
So you're still left with Representatives, Senators, and electors enumerated specifically in 1868 because the 1787 Constitution says they're something different from holding offices. If state legislators were understood by 1868 to fall under offices in the modern plain meaning, it's even weaker to claim the term somehow excluded the President, which the Constitution unambiguously calls an office almost two dozen times. Prior to 1868, no provision in the Constitution referred to state legislators as holding offices rather than being "members," as the other half of Section 3 also refers to them. But there was no worry about incongruity between "office" and "members" both covering state legislators, because by 1868 people would generally refer to them as holding office in the same way we speak of anybody in an elected position today holding office.