The Volokh Conspiracy
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"Officer of the United States" in Context
I have not been deep in the weeds of the arguments about Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, unlike my constitutional law casebook coauthors: Mike Paulsen, Michael McConnell, and Will Baude. But it is surprising to me that the former President of the United States seems to be putting most of his legal eggs in one basket—the argument that the President is not an "officer of the United States." This is the lead argument in the brief available here. And for reasons I cannot understand—as a matter of legal principle—this argument is now being advanced by various conservative legal luminaries.
Three observations:
1. The textual arguments advanced in the brief are weak, but the fundamental problem is a lack of sophistication about the interplay between semantics and context. Here is an example from pages 23-24: "every time this phrase appears in the Appointments Clause, the Commissions Clause, and the Impeachment Clause it excludes the President and refers only to appointed and commissioned officers rather than elected officials."
But it is not "this phrase" that excludes. In the Appointments Clause and the Commissions Clause, it is the context that makes clear that the President is not in view, because the President is not appointing or commissioning himself. It is not the semantic content of "officer of the United States."
By analogy, if I were to host a dinner for all of my colleagues at Notre Dame Law School, and I said "all law faculty are welcome, but none are obligated to be there," would I be saying that I, as the host, was not obligated to be there? Of course I would be obligated. Would I therefore be saying that I was not "law faculty"? No. My usage would not be advancing a narrow view of the semantic domain of "law faculty"; I would instead be using the phrase in a context that indicated that I was obviously excluded.
And in the Impeachment Clause it is not even the case that the phrase excludes the President, since it merely has an overlap with a very good reason for the additional specification. It is so important to make clear that the President and Vice President may be impeached—no small point against the background of royal prerogative power in England—that they are spelled out specifically. That does not mean they are not officers, and the brief's suggestion that "all other civil officers" would have to be used does not fit the legal drafting culture of the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. To give another example from that legal drafting culture, "necessary and proper" and "necessary or proper" and "necessary and appropriate" and so on all meant exactly the same thing (the sort of thing I explored here). This general point also weighs against any attempt to cut hyper-fine distinctions between an "officer of the United States" and an "office under the United States."
2. So is Section 3 such a context where the President is excluded? And here the argument in the former President's brief runs straight into the buzz-saw of what we could call the Andrew Johnson Problem. It is hard to imagine that the Reconstruction Congress that proposed Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, and the state legislatures that ratified it—in the middle of an intense struggle with President Andrew Johnson, and focused on all the problems that could come from a President who was not on board with reconstruction—would say that the two people who should be allowed to be Confederates would be the President and Vice President. We can retrofit plausible explanations for why the President and Vice President might be different (e.g., the Lessig argument here). But the Reconstruction Congress was in the middle of fighting tooth and nail with Andrew Johnson. That Congress thought President Johnson was imperiling all that the Union soldiers fought for. Was that Congress creating an exception for President Johnson? The burden of proof for showing that they were in fact doing that is so massive that it could not be met except with the clearest possible evidence.
3. The argument on page 23 of the brief that a presidential oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution" is not an oath to "support" the Constitution is risible. Try explaining it to a child. It is an argument that should be treated with derisive scorn by everyone who encounters it. It is the kind of magic-words literalism that is the reason people think they hate lawyers. Justice Scalia once said that if he accepted a certain argument "I would hide my head in a bag." That is a fitting response to the argument that the presidential oath does not require the President to support the Constitution.
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Once we get all the way to the military dictatorship, it will become much easier to identify the officers.
In short, va fa', Calabresi.
Certainly the clearest take on this I’ve read so far. Bears repeating.
Whether J6 was an insurrection and whether Trump was a party to an insurrection on J6 is subject to legitimate debate, I find the question of whether the presidency is an office or the president to be an officer to be an inane argument.
Article 2 is states to the effect that , "... the president shall hold the office for four years. "
That's rapidly becoming my position too. *Of course* the president is an officer of the United States; he is the highest-ranking officer of the United States, and what is he if not an officer of the United States? The whole argument is completely ridiculous.
I continue to be opposed to keeping him off the ballot, but not because there's any real question about whether he's an officer of the United States. That's just state of the art lawyer spinning.
The reason to keep him on the general election ballot is because the entirety of Sec3 is about the indirect elections; electoral vote counting - spec the 22nd joint rule of 1865; 12A stuff. About the authority and processes of Congress. States that take the name off the general election ballot are taking away the ability for Congress alone to decide whether the person is tainted and whether that taint can be removed.
IMO- the specific issue here - a CO primary election ballot is irrelevant. A primary isn't federal. It isn't even an election for office. Or even governmental. It's a state-run beauty contest for political parties to massively subsidize the two major political parties by channeling voter interest towards them (and implicitly away from all other options). Is the SC supposed to determine how political parties get subsidized/distorted by states now that they aren't judging political gerrymandering?
Interestingly - to me at least - the original version of Sec3 (from the Joint Committee of the 15 on Reconstruction) was:
Until the fourth day of July in the year one thousand eight hundred and seventy, all persons who voluntarily adhered to the late insurrection, giving it aid and comfort, shall be excluded from the right to vote for representatives in Congress and for electors of President or Vice-President of the United States.
"what is he if not an officer of the United States?"
An elected official. Something no officer is.
The President is not elected. Nowadays, electors are elected. But even in 1865, South Carolina had never held a direct election for President.
Federalist 68 specifically describes the ‘appointment of the President’.
Party/faction has certainly diminished the role of electors to mere toadies of party. But party/faction is NOT the Constitution.
Of course the President is elected, and always has been. Why do you think the electors are called electors, rather than appointers ?
I will say it's high time to ring down the curtain on the Trump shitshow farce and this is yet another example of why. If this were happening in some third world country it would be both hilarious and par for the course; I always thought we were better than that here.
"I will say it’s high time to ring down the curtain on the Trump shitshow farce"
Then vote against him, you petty illiberal tyrant.
How am I a petty illiberal tyrant when I already said I think Trump should be on the ballot?
What is petty and illiberal about following the Constiution? Should Cenk Uygur be on ballot? Barack Obama? 30 year olds?
Office does not equal officer.
Still waiting for the constitution using "officer" when referring to President.
Specificaly sec 3 intentionally states the section covers electors of President and Vice President.
President and Vice President or exempt because they are elected on nation wide basis. IF the people want to vote for a person tied to inserrection, they have that power.
But then Congress have to power to refuse to seat the President. Overiding the People. BUT, the congressmen shall be judged by the people at the next election.
According to Sec. 3 the insurrectionist MUST stand for Presidential election. It is the ONLY way the disability can be set aside by a vote of congress.
So the People get to decide the President. First at the ballot box. If enough of the nation feels the insurrection was not disqualifying, the man is elected. Congress has to power to overturn the will of the people. But just like impeachment, Congress will be held accountable at the next election.
That's exactly what happened to Liz Cheney. The People disagreed with ONE persons opinion, and held that person accountable.
Notice judges never enter into the fray.
"According to Sec. 3 the insurrectionist MUST stand for Presidential election. It is the ONLY way the disability can be set aside by a vote of congress."
It's an argument, but it's much too convenient. How do you square that position with the fact that Congress passed the Amnesty Act of 1872, which affected over 150,000 former Confederate troops who had taken part in the American Civil War--few of whom had been elected to any office whatsoever.
The point is, the only way for congress to remove the disability is for them to be elected.
This makes eminent sense. The voters are first to judge if the person was part of an insurrection. If, IF the people make a decision that yes, the person should server, then congress has the power to overrule the citizens, and the citizen then have the power to remove those congress critter. for either allowing the person or denying the person. Can't have govt functionaries forbidding a person access to run for office. That power rests with ONLY congress.
Well, no, I just showed you how Congress had in fact removed the disability from hundreds of Confederates who had not been first "elected". Are you claiming the Amnesty Act of 1872 did not do that?
The Constitution already exists. We don't need your fan fiction interpretation of it.
The canons of statutory interpretation are not the same as the rules for interpreting colloquial speech. We expect legislators to exercise more care and precision in drafting statutes than someone composing a dinner invitation.
Maybe now a days, but that was not the standard 150 years ago.
Hardly. Is the Constitution written in ordinary "colloquial" language, or is it written in legal language? When the Constitution says judges shall hold their offices during good behavior, does "good behavior" have a colloquial meaning or a technical or a technical, legal meaning, one borrowed directly from the English Act of Settlement 1701? What is an "unreasonable" search? Is it one subjectively unreasonable in a given judge's opinion or is it one unreasonable at common law?
The Drafters of the Constitution used careful, precise legal terms, and this had not been forgotten 80 years later. This is not a recent innovation.
So you’re saying that even though normal English usage & understanding of context could allow it, the Constitutional drafters wrote with a variety of precision that would preclude the wording of the Appointments and Commissions clauses, if the president were an officer of the US.
That sounds like a plausible argument that could be true.
How did you come to satisfy yourself that it’s true? (How did you reach your conclusions about the kinds of precision the drafters wrote with, and where the line falls for the wording in these clauses?)
P.S. I’m assuming that since you said Bray is wrong on this (and he gave an example of how the drafters did *not* speak with the precision we might expect), then you either:
1. Think he’s wrong about the and/or example.
2. Have a specific reason to think that even though they didn’t speak with *that* kind of precision, they did speak with *this* kind of precision (on this officer thing).
A telling slip.
This is not a statute. Constitutional interpretation is different from statutory interpretation for this reason. It is a framework; some ambiguity is baked in.
The practice shares some canons with statutory interpretation, not others.
Constitutions and statutes are legal texts. Both have to cope with precise drafting and vaguer and more ambiguous drafting. Constitutions are usually vaguer and more ambiguous than statutes - in places, but not everywhere - but they do not require a different set of interpretive tools.
The same tools that apply to vagueness and ambiguity in constitutions are usable for vagueness and ambiguity in statutes. They just have to be used more often.
It's the same game.
All legal documents are up to the judiciary to deal with. But that does not mean they are all dealt with the same. Just read SCOTUS statutory opinions and compare them to constitutional opinions.
Constitutions are not drafted with the kind of stilted repetitive language that statutes and contracts are are because their purpose is not primarily clarity - read the history of the Convention. Clarity is important, but the purpose is not a precise meeting of the minds, but rather a broad consensus framework to be implemented and then carried forward to an extent way beyond laws and contracts' intent.
Because of this different purpose, you have doctrines of interpretation that have a philosophical weight to their own and which books are written about.
For statute, you have canons, and canons that are more suggestions than requirements anyway.
Such an odd thing to say. No, ambiguity is not baked in. It just means that constitutional contexts have less other/outside constraints, inevitably.
Nothing ambiguous about habeus corpus, letters of marque, or “good behavior”, as those meanings pre-existed all constitutional texts (which weren’t a thing until 1776).
The point being, if a term gets included or added (original or via amendment), it likely has some kind of prior context. Not always obviously. I don’t think ambiguity is an intentional thing. But that’s much different than (not) anticipating the First Amendment also applies to electronic communication, not just the printing press.
I don’t think the Founders intended office/officer to be ambiguous, nor did the 14A Framers in repeating that…they just didn’t have enough reason to pay close attention to avoid it. In the latter case because it was inconceivable in the moment for any rebel to be elected president, and they covered themselves by name-checking the electors. They were far more focused on the implications of the civil rights language of the amendment.
That’s not a slam dunk argument to the legal question at hand. Merely an explanation as to why it was not explicitly resolved. If given a do-over, I think they would have wanted to avoid ambiguity, not embrace it as a feature.
It’s the difference between English language and Programming languages. The more computer-literate we get, the more we expect important things to use the literalism and perfectionism of computer languages.
Someday, someone will invent a compiler for future legal texts, so we can check for errors ahead of time. But it likely won’t be backwards-compatible.
Legal sophistry and bogus hyperdistinctions existed long before computer languages ever came into being.
Are some legal arguments the equivalent of malware?
Magister, yes. And Holmes, Jr. described them:
The life of the law has not been logic: it has been experience. The felt necessities of the time, the prevalent moral and political theories, intuitions of public policy, avowed or unconscious, even the prejudices which judges share with their fellow-men, have had a good deal more to do than the syllogism in determining the rules by which men should be governed. The law embodies the story of a nation's development through many centuries, and it cannot be dealt with as if it contained only the axioms and corollaries of a book of mathematics.
Try being a patent attorney. Actually, it was a fairly easy transition for me, after 15 years in software development. One of my clients, an expert on compiler development, explained Antecedent Basis in patent claims as “just” a def-use chains (you have to define objects before using them). Not exactly, but close enough for a first cu, saving me a lot of work. Switching an “a” for a “the” can cost $millions$, with the change the difference between validity and invalidity and/or infringement and noninfringement.
I have sometimes found Professor Bray’s arguments tedious, but I appreciate Professor Bray’s well-reasoned one on this issue.
As always, I appreciate the clarity of Professor Bray's thought and prose.
But, come on, you're going to point out how weird it is that the weak "officer" argument is getting top billing, and not even speculate on an answer! I want theories, galldangit.
If I were a justice inclined to keep Trump on the ballot, while simultaneously doing the least possible violence to the language of the constitution, I would simply say "I don't know precisely what the difference is between (1) 'engag[ing] in insurrection,' and (2) saying ill-advised things to a group of rioters; but this particular sequence of events -- which almost certainly will never repeat itself in the exact same fashion -- happens not to qualify."
So you're expecting another "present circumstances only" special like Bush v Gore?
I see why Bush v. Gore springs to your mind, but there are devils in the details, so I don’t myself find the comparison worth pursuing.
Not being a SCOTUS kremlinologist, my expectations are limited to the following: (1) just as many other judges have seemed to instinctively recoiled from the prospect of removing a leading presidential candidate from the ballot, at least some Justices will feel an instinctive pressure to find a way to that outcome, whether or not they would otherwise want to get there; (2) as the bi-partisan amicus recently discussed here points out, at least some Justices are going to feel that kicking the case on justiciability invites the disaster of a popularly elected candidate being disqualified only after the votes are cast; (3) accepting the “officer” theory could have undesirable ripple effects on other areas of the law; and (4) adopting a definition of “insurrection” that distinguishes the conduct here would not obviously cause some future case to be screwed up.
But perhaps there are other considerations I am not thinking about. As I said above, I am interested in other people’s speculation about what the various advocates (and commentators acting as advocates) are thinking.
The attempted coup was not just J6, it was over two months.
It is hard to be specific as to when the allegedly insurrectionary group originally formed, but the Trump campaign engaged John Eastman with a formal retainer agreement signed on December 5, 2020. The first (undated) Eastman memo was reportedly prepared shortly after a December 24, 2020, request by a Trump aide. The second (also undated) Eastman memo was probably prepared in early 2021 (it cites a December 31, 2020, court filing).
If this were a criminal conspiracy, we could look for the first "overt act", but this is not a criminal enquiry. Arguably, the standard to establish "engagement in insurrection" by a group would be lower, i.e., a preponderance of the evidence suggests that those persons involved were "engaged in insurrection" for A14.S3 purposes.
I haven't been following, but how is "the former President of the United States . . . putting most of his legal eggs in one basket"? Are they forgoing or giving short shrift to other arguments?
Arguing that a mostly peaceful unarmed protest was some sort of rebellion or "insurrection," right after the horrors of the 2020 summer of hate, as part of a scorched earth lawfare campaign from a hundred different directions, is also one of those things that make people think they hate lawyers, fwiw.
Well, the Confederacy was mostly unarmed and peaceful, maybe just as unarmed and peaceful. Only a small percentage of its population ever took up arms or shot at a Union soldier.
Read akhil amar amicus brief on the Buchanan Lincoln transition and how the drafters of 14a3 contemplated secretary Floyd to be insurrectionists for actions prior to civil war.
The Lessig argument, that election related decisions by one state regarding President and Vice President are suffered by other states as well, seems wrong; the recent tight margins in House and Senate mean that one state can affect the entire country very badly. Without extreme Republican gerrymandering, Democrats would have held the House in 2022; federal election decisions visited on the entire country. (Some have blamed the incompetence of the New York Democratic Party. Earlier, the losses in Senate runoffs in Georgia cost the Republicans control of the Senate.)
The drafters of the 14th amendment disqualified Presidential electors; those act only briefly, they are largely unknown to the voters, and any insurrectionist Presidential candidate who can win a state should be able to find enough electors who have not previously taken the relevant oath. Why make this symbolic exclusion but do nothing about insurrectionist Presidents?
Leave Trump on the ballot, but don't do it with stupid arguments.
"Without extreme Republican gerrymandering, Democrats would have held the House in 2022"
Yes, if only Democrats were allowed to gerrymander, they'd obviously do better.
Republicans took control of many legislatures in 2010 and used the opportunity to gerrymander states to an extent no Democrats have matched. At least for once a Republican shill has conceded that Republicans did something bad that was not forced by Democrats doing it first.
You know what? I’ve seen actual research by people who studied this intensively, and THEY say that gerrymandering was a wash.
“The analysis reveals that while Republican and Democratic gerrymandering affects the partisan outcomes of Congressional elections in some states, the net effect across the states is modest, creating no more than one new Republican seat in Congress. Therefore, the partisan composition of Congress can mostly be explained by non-partisan districting, suggesting that much of the electoral bias in Congressional elections is caused by factors other than partisan intent in the districting process”
Actually, prior to '94, the country was extensively gerrymandered in favor of Democrats. That's why '94 was such a big deal: Gerrymandering protects you in normal times, but costs you dearly in wave elections like '94.
Analysis based on data from when Democratic gerrymandering was mostly in Republican controlled "pre-clearance states that engage in racial gerrymandering to meet the standards set out by the Voting Rights Act"? It still admits that Republican gerrymandering is partisan and while it may only move a few seats, that's the margin in the House. But they're using 2008 data, after which California changed its redistricting process to reduce gerrymandering; pre-clearance states no longer exist, and Republicans ramped up gerrymandering efforts after 2008.
Your claim of gerrymandering favoring Democrats up to 1994 needs some support; majority-minority districts probably worked against Democrats.
Wisconsin is currently strongly controlled by Republicans even though it votes fairly evenly; the effect on Congress is six Republicans and two Democrats even though Democrats steadily win statewide races. With statewide elections switching control of the state Supreme Court, fair maps are actually possible.
And fair maps will leave Republicans with an advantage in Wisconsin, because of political geography. In many states, the parties’ voters are distributed in such a fashion that the Democrats are disadvantaged by any compact map. They need actual gerrymandering to reach parity.
Imagine a state where you’ve got one big city in a corner of the state that runs 90% Democratic, and the rest of the state is only 45% Democratic. Democrats could easily be half the population and only get 11% of the seats. Unless you created a bunch of skinny wedge shaped districts reaching far out into the countryside. And THAT would be gerrymandering!
In most states Democrats are badly hurt by having so many of their voters concentrated in overwhelmingly Democratic urban areas. But that’s not gerrymandering, that’s political geography.
That’s why Democrats are so fond of supposed ‘measures of gerrymandering’ like vote efficiency, that have nothing to do with actual gerrymandering, but instead measure how efficiently a party’s members are distributed. They want to claim that not negating their political geography disadvantage is somehow a voting rights violation.
THAT IS NOT TO SAY THE REPUBLICANS WEREN'T GUILTY OF GERRYMANDERING IN WISCONSIN!
They were. But a fair map would still leave Democrats at a disadvantage; Chen and Cotrell's research took that into account.
Your hypothetical bears little relationship to actual Wisconsin voting patterns. Districts and voting are both by population, not square miles.
In 2021, a non-partisan commission had no trouble drawing a congressional map submitted to the government that was expected to result in four from each party. It split Milwaukee, but that's inevitable since Milwaukee County alone has more than an eighth of the population and more than half of the black population (even the current Supreme Court won't let you pack one district that way).
I won't even revisit the history of voter suppression by Wisconsin Republicans; that's enabled by the more extreme gerrymandering of the state legislature.
Thanks. It's amazing that this even needs explaining.
It's amazing you think officers are elected.
What is not amazing, is that you're too stupid to engage on any of the substance of the blog post, or the substance of anyone's comments.
Are Senators Officers?
Representatives?
Both hold office.
That's the chief thing that lends credibility to the argument:
"a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State"
If you hold the "everyone who occupies an office is an officer!" position, this list is grossly redundant. They listed Senators, Representatives, and Electors, but couldn't spend a few more words including the actual President? Just his electors?
The contrary argument is that Section 3 was clearly applied to state legislatures, which are not listed in this phrase, but are elected. So "officers under" DOES include elected positions.
My conclusion?
There's no special intent to exclude the Presidency, there's just bad drafting.
You'd think that constitutional amendments would be proof edited to death. You'd think wrong.
It is long established that members of Congress and electors are not officers.
Exploiting flaws in the drafting and previous interpretation of the Constitution to reach a desired result is not the principled position that some congratulate themselves for.
You’d think that constitutional amendments would be proof edited to death. You’d think wrong.
Well, you might also think that people wouldn't make arguments about things in the law or Constitution that lead to obviously absurd results. Just like you sometimes see mathematicians come up with proofs that would suggest that 1 = 2 or something. But you'd be wrong.
When mathematicians do that kind of thing, I think that they are really just trying to see if everything is perfectly self-consistent or if they might have defined something poorly somewhere. They wouldn't take a result like that and argue that we can't use an elevator in a building anymore because the math says it should undergo infinite acceleration when it starts to move from the 1st floor to the 2nd.
I agree with your major point. There is a significant difference between mathematics and law, however, in that mathematical principles exist independently of human construction. If every human on the planet were to disappear, pi would still equal 3.14, there just wouldn't be anyone around to notice. That's not true of law. If we disappeared, we would take law with us. Law is an entirely human construct. So the law is whatever humans agree the law is, whether or not it's internally consistent, makes sense, or is a good idea.
And it's extremely difficult to write in such a way that you can anticipate every contingency that might arise. Twenty years ago, the very idea that someone like Trump would be a viable candidate for president would have been unthinkable. Who could have anticipated him?
But humans formulate axioms which may be inconsistent (e.g., naive set theory and Russell's paradox) and apply the resulting theories as models of reality. For various purposes, approximate values of pi like 3.14 may be sufficient, in the same way that Newtonian mechanics is a sufficiently accurate model for some scales.
I will also say that the argument that the president is not an officer of the United States is such an absurd result that the very fact that Trump is resorting to it is a sign of desperation. You don't make bad arguments if you've got good ones.
Well, I agree that it isn't a very good argument, it has only one virtue from Trump's perspective: It shuts down the disqualification efforts entirely.
Even if the Court took my preferred approach, and declared federal insurrection law to be Section 3 enabling legislation, the DOJ might indict him for insurrection the very next day. A trial in DC would certainly look winnable. But if Section 3 simply doesn't apply to Trump? That's one trouble completely off his list.
But, you know, it's not like he's relying on this argument alone. It's just one among many.
I don’t think that the DOJ has the time for another trial before the end of the year. They have two quasi scheduled for March, and at least the FL (documents) case is likely going to be moved to June, at the earliest. The Special Counsel tried to put the two trials back to back, right before Super Tuesday. Judge Cannon, in FL, was unpersuaded that his timing was necessary.
Besides, imagine discovery by a deep pocketed defendant, who still is in privy to a lot of inside information, into what the FBI and Capital Police knew about what was going on 1/6/21, and days up to it. How many federal agents or CIs (e.g. Ray Epps) were there? What were they doing? Were any of them instigating it? Did any federal employees communicate with the AntiFA that were there (bussed in, dressed like MAGA, but none arrested). Were there any body cams (yes)? What sort of electronic surveillance was utilized? On whom? Transcripts? Warrants?
Then, imagine all this unfolding in the run up to the election this November. The Feds, and esp the FBI, are likely sitting on a lot of dirty laundry. Besides, trying Trump for Insurrection, right before the election, to keep him from assuming the Presidency (using § 3), is just too obvious as election interference.
The prominence of this argument seems to have more to do with the political reality of this dispute than its intrinsic merit. By holding that the President isn't covered by the 14th Amendment, SCOTUS can avoid taking a substantive position on whether Jan. 6 was an insurrection and whether Trump participated in it -- an exercise that I doubt anyone on the Court has much appetite for.
Yep. They will find a way to keep him on the ballot, while avoiding endorsing an argument that almost everyone agrees is BS.
Whether it's "his behavior didn't meet the requirements for an insurrection" or some procedural argument about jurisdiction and process, or (less likely) the non-self-executing argument he's going to be on the ballot.
The main problem is that for the 14A sec 3 to matter in practice a candidate affected needs to have some reasonable chance to be elected, and the courts are loathe to throw a viable candidate off the ballot. Were this RFK Jr or Cornell West they could just accept the RNC's argument that the case is not ripe until after the election and sidestep the whole thing: "Get back to us when he wins"
The main problem is that for the 14A sec 3 to matter in practice a candidate affected needs to have some reasonable chance to be elected,
No, the candidate MUST be elected, then congress can remove the disability, or refuse to seat in office.
Section 3 requires a person stand for election.
Congress acts.
The end. It is so simple, so clear. No questions have to be settled. NO judges required. The People hold congress accountable for their actions
But maybe as importantly, to find against Trump here, the Supreme Court must define the amount od Due Process required. The CO decision, if upheld, would not only affect Trump, but also the likely in excess of 75 million people who would be voting for him this time. Certainly, a five day hearing where evidence and witnesses were minimal, discovery nonexistent, the highly political J6 committee report was excepted from the Hearsay rules, and given weight, and a Sociology professor, who had never met Trump, had weight given his testimony that he could read Trump’s mind, lacks sufficient Due Process to protect the other stake holders in the decision. But how much Due Process is required? If the US SC merely reverses on that ground, they risk CO coming back in a month after a 6 day or maybe 10 day hearing. After all, the entire § 3 challenge is LawFare, trying to use the law offensively and creatively to affect the election. The obvious purpose of using such an abbreviated election dispute hearing (created to expeditiously address post election disputes) was to prevent a full development of the facts. In any case, my point is that reversing on Due Process grounds would require the Supreme Court to do some messy line drawing, setting out how much Due Process is required.
Well, not so messy if they just say, "Federal insurrection law is enabling legislation for Section 3, so the due process required is a criminal conviction for insurrection, nothing less."
I wouldn't guarantee this would put a stop to the lawfare, but it would sure put a crimp in it.
It's only not messy if you ignore all the other similarly drafted Amendments and associated precedent.
You're way off from your usual insistence on Constitutional harmonization, to the point of treating different rights the same doctrinally.
Look, I keep saying that the Court has extra-legal objectives here, such as avoiding having this issue repeatedly coming before them, and that this is one way they could square them all. Sure, it wouldn't make YOU happy, but I'm pretty sure that's not on their to do list anyway.
And I don't ignore Reconstruction era precedent, I have adequately explained why I think it's a really, REALLY bad idea to treat it as controlling.
I'm all for the Court paying attention to the implications of a ruling. Including this one, as I've told you before. However:
1) YOU never have been before. Like, to a fault. Now you've turned on a dime.
2) the implications you posit are right-wing terrorism. Which you appear to endorse.
"...all law faculty are welcome, but none are obligated to be there," would I be saying that I, as the host, was not obligated to be there? ..."
Well, if I saw that invitation, my initial reaction would be, "Poor grammar . . . it should be, ". . . but none IS obligated to . . .". It's bad enough changing "data" to singular. Let's not multiply [pun intended] the problem, by changing the meaning of "none." It's short for 'no one' or "not one," it takes the singular, and I'll hear no more on the subject.
(Other than my usual--and tedious--grammar-Nazi whining; I thought the good professor did an excellent job of dissecting and deflating the rather-silly Trump arguments about how he was not an officer.) 🙂
If you’re going to be a tedious pedant, you could at least be correct:
https://books.google.com/books?id=sckiAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1&ei=HRqqR7LaHpnmtQPJqLGnCg#v=onepage&q&f=false
As Lounsbury puts it,
Every now and then, you meet a woman for whom ending a sentence with a proposition is something out for which she will not put.
Some of them turn me down every time I get let out of jail.
"But why should he go about seeking to inflict upon others the misery [that] ... owes its origin to his own ignorance ?"
It’s comments like this that get me to read the comments. My favorite yet on this topic. Thanks for providing such a perspective.
Ouch.
If you imagine Section 3 to have been intended specifically to apply to those itemized officials who had participated in the cessations and insurrection of the Civil War, then the omission of President would be consistent with there having been no such person.
Good point, with which Bray seems to agree: Andrew Johnson in no way participated in insurrection or secession. But, Andrew Johnson _is_ a good example in other ways, too.
While I agree with Bray that the argument regarding "officer of the United States" is odd and is probably not the best route, I disagree with Bray in that I feel the elected President and Vice President / President of the Senate are not Officers, for reasons expressed in other amicus briefs. Unlike all other members of the executive branch, the President and Vice President can be ejected from office only upon death or removal after impeachment: this makes these two offices "Commanders-In-Chief" (one of the armed forces and one of the legislature) which is a term well understood since the founding.
The argument concerning their removal can be countered by considering the exceptional nature of their position and how they're elected. The obstacle never satisfactorily removed by Blackman, Calabresi et al is that throughout the Constitution, the presidency is referred to as an office - not a post, a position, a function, nor any other plausible synonym.
office is not a synonym for officer. Legislators hold office too. Are the officers of the United States?
Legislators are not officers of the US and the Constitution nowhere refers to a legislative position as an office. Legislators are called members within the Constitution.
And yet the legal beagles have not found a single instance where the President, is referred to a OFFICER
They wouldn't need to. Context and natural readings suffice.
Legislators are not officers of the US. Legislators are called members within the Constitution.
and the Constitution nowhere refers to a
legislative positionPresident as anofficeOfficeris that throughout the Constitution, the presidency is referred to as an office
And yet the legal beagles have not found a single instance where the President, is referred to a OFFICER
"The President of the United States would be an officer elected by the people for FOUR years;"
Which article/amendment says that ?
No new goalposts.
Agreed. Nieporent’s goalpost moving, pretending that :
And yet the legal beagles have not found a single instance where the President, is referred to a OFFICER
was not a direct response to :
is that throughout the Constitution, the presidency is referred to as an office
was pretty feeble.
Matched for feebleness by you pretending that it's me who's moving the goalposts.
This could all be true. That doesn’t mean it’s not the best argument for Trump.
Mostly the reason it keeps coming up is it’s the clearest, no-muss-no-fuss way for SCOTUS to definitely rule for Trump.
Agreed. It lets SCOTUS keep Trump on the ballot without reaching the argument regarding J6 or Trump's part in it. Plus it has a reasonable chance of an 8-1 or better vote.
It’s also the argument that gives them the best political cover, which will be Priority No.1 for Roberts, Kavanaugh and Barrett. Also Priorities 2 and 3.
“The [hint hint] staunchly Democrat and Democrat appointed [/hint hint] Colorado District Judge got her analysis of the officer question right and we adopt it in full. We do not therefore need to consider the other arguments. Accordingly we reverse the Colorado Supreme Court and reinstate the conclusion of the [hint hint] did we mention that she is a staunch Democrat and Democrat appointee ? [/hint hint] Colorado District Judge. How glad we are that this case shows that there’s no such thing as an Obama judge or a Trump judge. Just honest, honorable toilers in the judicial trenches.”
"The people do not vote for the 'Officers of the United States.' Art. II, §2, cl. 2. They instead look to the President to guide the 'assistants or deputies … subject to his superintendence.' The Federalist No. 72, p. 487 (J. Cooke ed. 1961) (A. Hamilton)."
Free Enterprise Fund v. Public Company Accounting Oversight Bd., 561 U.S. 477 (2010)
If the Chief Justice found so in a majority opinion, that makes the argument a pretty successful one.
The people don’t vote for the President either. Electors appointed at ghe direction of state legislatures do that. So the President is not an exception to Hamilton’s statement.
That matches along with my point that if you follow Blackman, et.al., then it is clear that the use of the word "arms", in "keep and bear arms" make it clear that Congress cannot through either criminal or civil law hack off the upper extremities of an individual person.
Because both dictionaries and lexicons of the time, along with more recent computer analysis of contemporary texts, make it clear that the use of the word "arms" in isolation refer to the upper extremities.
Yea, but they were talking about bear arms, not people arms.
I, for one, fully support the right to arm bears. At least during bear hunting season...it seems only fair.
The President does take a different oath. Maybe Bray thinks that the differences are insignificant, but why are they different? He does not explain. Scotus is not going to exclude Trump unless it is clearly required by the Constitution, and it is not, for many reasons.
There is a better argument that Kamala Harris and Nikki Haley are unqualified, as they are not natural born citizens.
The different words of the oaths are not important per se. It is the fact that the list of positions to be forbidden insurrectionists closely mirrors or tracks the list of positions that take an Article VI oath. The fact that the Presidential oath is provided for elsewhere (Article II) in the Constitution, i.e., not affected by the Article VI oath requirement, is evidence that the Presidency is also not one of the positions forbidden via 14A S3.
The refutation that this argument boils down to differences in meaning between the words "support" and "preserve, protect, defend" is disingenuous and moronic.
But the Constitution doesn't lay out different words for the oath.
In Article 2 it lays out the exact specific words that the president's oath needs to be. In article 6 it says officers need to swear an oath to support the Constitution, while leaving the wording open.
If part of the Constitution explicitly said that the president is an "officer of the United States", we wouldn't even think this oath thing is odd. It would be obvious to everyone that Article 2 is just giving the exact words of the oath that the president must swear to satisfy Article 6, while leaving the wording open for other officers.
Yeh, but notice that both the requirement for everyone else swear an oath to “support” the Constitution uses the same exact word (“support”) as does § 3, while that word is conspicuously absent in the President’s required oath.
They call this hiding an elephant in a mouse hole.
Isn't the whole Tillman/Blackman argument a claim that the drafters did exactly that?
I mean, if they wanted to exempt the President and VP from disqualification, I think they would have been a hell of a lot more explicit. It looks like it would be a pretty important provision.
Your frame - that it is a matter of exempting the P and VP from disqualification - assumes the conclusion : that they must already be included.
In reality the situation is precisely the opposite. If they are included they are elephants included in the mousehole about officers.
Which is precisely the argument which Bray et al make as to why the P and VP are specifically mentioned in the Impeachment Clause. They’re too important not to mention.
Moreover, there is a cannon of statutory construction that if specific items or people are in a list, followed by a group, those individuals or items are not in the group. It’s a corollary of the cannon of surplusage, that the assumption is that if words are in a statute (or Constitution), they are assumed not to be surplusage. Naming the President and VP in the Impeachment Clause (etc) would be surplusage, if they were in the class of “Officers”.
I think you're absolutely right that the 14th Amendment Section 3 clearly parallels that article 6 passage.
The argument is over whether article 6 *does* include the president. Whether article 2 gives the exact words that the president has to swear for his oath to support the Constitution.
"I promise to preserve, protect, and defend you!"
"Wow. Thanks for the support!"
"What support?"
Or if we had a statute criminalizing "supporting Hamas", and someone confessed to "preserving protecting and defending Hamas"...
"What? I didn't say I supported Hamas!"
“I promise to preserve, protect, and defend you!”
“Wow. Thanks for the support!”
“What support? I promised to preserve, protect and defend you, but I certainly don't support you. I fervently hope that you will come to a sticky end as soon as possible. Should my extremely reluctant efforts - compelled by my oath - to preserve, protect and defend you fail, no one will be more delighted than me."
Another good line: The Amars say in their amicus brief that this argument is like saying that the Double Jeopardy clause doesn't forbid Triple Jeopardy.
It really is a superbly-written paper.
Because triple jeopardy is impossible?
That's dumb, even for a joke.
You can't get to triple jeopardy without first going through double jeopardy. Hence ruling out double jeopardy rules out all higher order jeopardies.
Yes, that was the Amars' point. And technically, that would be committing double jeopardy twice, with each instance having one jeopardy in common.
Why are they different?
Because they were written by different people, decades apart.
Johnson would have been excluded had he joined the Confederacy since he’d previously taken multiple covered oaths for lower state and federal offices. Trump is the only president in our history not to have done so. Plausibly (I’m not agreeing with Blackman, just making a narrow point in response to this post), Congress would have been comfortable for this reason importing language from other parts of the constitution that excluded the President and Vice President, rather than starting from scratch.
Maybe 2nd? Did Washington have to take a “support” oath to command the Continental Army? And what about John Adams?
Fair enough, since the Constitution didn’t exist during their prior careers. But each held positions that would have required the oath. Worth thinking this through even further though. If Bray is right about the Johnson “buzz saw,” why is Section 3 restricted to those who previously took a particular oath? As written, it allowed any of millions of former confederates who hadn’t previously held any office at all (and would allow Viking-helmet guy today) to become President. It seems plausible they’d have knowingly imported language from elsewhere in the Constitution without concern that they’d additionally be allowing someone who’s previously been President but hasn’t ever held any other to again become President.
I surmise that Donald Trump's SCOTUS brief is better than his briefs before the lower courts, both state and federal, because Trump has hired a better lawyer with relevant Supreme Court experience, Jonathan Mitchell.
The brief, however, conspicuously fails to explain how the phrase "any office, civil or military, under the United States" somehow excludes the commander-in-chief of the armed forces.
Because of the elected/appointed dichotomy, and that he is the Executive, and is separately named in the Constitution. He isn’t just the head of the Executive Branch, but the repository of all Executive power. He is, effectively, one of the three branches of government.
Jesus, don't tell Trump!
I'm reminded of the old adage: "when the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When the law is on your side, argue the law. If neither is on your side, bullshit."
This argument about whether the president is an officer can perhaps be described as "arguing the law". But to a lot of people it sure smells like bullshit.
Which is interesting. It suggests that Trump's supporters don't think the best way to convince 5 SCOTUS justices is to argue the facts.
The problem with arguing the facts is that, although Trump is factually innocent of insurrection, the lower court already found him factually guilty, and the Supreme court hates disturbing lower court fact finding.
So arguing that he's innocent starts you off on the wrong foot with the Court, even if it's true.
Which is to say that the only way realistically to argue against that CO lower court determination of the facts, is to determine that it didn’t provide sufficient Due Process. The CO lower court utilized an expedited hearing in the election code, designed for post election disputes, prioritizing quick finality and closure over accuracy. The argument is that that is (grossly) insufficient Due Process for protecting the interests of Trump and likely more than 75 million people who would vote for him this year, if they could.
Your "75 million people" augmentation is very weak. If 75 million people wanted to vote for Obama in 2024, you'd just tell them to go pound sand.
Are there 75 million people in the US who don't think Obama has served two terms yet?
I am talking about how much Due Process is due. It would be trivial to prove that Obama had served two terms, so was ineligible to serve as President, beyond a reasonable doubt, or at whatever level of proof was required. You could have a 1 day hearing, or a six months trial. Wouldn’t matter. But with Trump in the CO case, he wasn’t allowed to testify, cross examine the state’s witnesses, call his own witnesses, engage in discovery, etc. Was that sufficient Due Process?
Overall, the amount of Due Process required to comport with the 5th and 14th Amdts, depends on the size and importance of the interests involved. For example, small claims court, that’s not typically bound by the Rules of Evidence, may be sufficient for claims under $1,000, County Court, with limited discovery, maybe sufficient up to $7500, and District Court for higher amounts. Same thing for traffic court for traffic infractions, County Court for misdemeanors, and District Court for felonies. Traffic courts typically only require proof by a preponderance of the evidence, and don’t have juries. A county court may utilize 6 man juries, and may not require unanimity. District courts for felonies often have 12 person juries and require unanimous verdicts. The larger and more important the interest involved, the more process is due.
If I remember correctly, the CO trial judge decided that the expedited 5 day hearing provided sufficient Due Process, essentially because no one was going to jail, nor going to lose any money. The counter argument by either amici or petitioner (Trump) is that the interests involved are extremely significant, and require a lot more than the 5 day expedited hearing to protect. He could lose his sought for 2nd term in office as a result, and over 75 million voters could be disenfranchised from their preferred candidate winning the election and taking office. With his win tonight, in the NH primaries, it is unlikely that he will lose a single state in the Republican race for their nomination – where he is allowed to run. The Republican party’s members are speaking – their great preference is for Trump to be their nominee next November.
And make sure that you keep straight the different arguments. This one only goes to whether or not the CO courts’ determination that he was involved in an insurrection was legitimate under the Due Process provision in § 1 of the 14th Amdt, and not whether a state can prevent someone from running for or assuming the Presidency under § 3 of that amendment. Part of that debate is the subject of this blog post and comment thread (whether § 3 applies to the Presidency).
Like I said, your invocation of "the 75 million" is very weak.
The "75 million" people potentially being disenfranchised by enforcing the 14th Amendment against Trump would be in the same position as the 75 million people potentially disenfranchised by enforcing the 22nd Amendment against Obama.
You seemingly wish to imply that if only 75 thousand people would be disenfranchised, Trump would be due correspondingly less Constitutional process.
They could rule that the lower court was applying the wrong legal definition of insurrection, without doing the "disturbing a factual finding" that they don't like to do.
The question of what standard to apply is a legal question, not a factual question.
Yes - I had forgotten that argument. The 14th Amdt was enacted in response to the Aftermath of the Civil War, where 2/3 of a million Americans died. In the J6 “Insurrection”, four protesters died, at the hands of the Capital Police, and it may have indirectly caused the death of a couple Capital Police officers through heart attacks. Essentially, the difference in death tolls is more than 5 orders of magnitude (100k X), maybe nearing 6, given the increase in population since that war.
Not sure that scale is a particularly powerful argument. 21 people were killed in the Beer Hall Putsch, but it was still an attempted coup, which I think counts as an insurrection.
And keeping with the WWII theme, only four people died during the 20 July 1944 plot to kill Adolf Hitler. That, too, was obviously an attempt to overthrow the German government.
Of course, the “insurrection” is not just the events of January 6, 2021 (to which, understandably, Trump would prefer all the attention be drawn). The apparent plot to prevent the winner of the 2020 election from taking power as provided in the Constitution was formulated over a number of weeks preceding the “wild” Stop the Steal rally on January 6.
There is ample evidence in the public domain that John Eastman was hired in early December, 2020, and provided his infamous memos in late December and early January. Numerous other “overt acts” took place during that period which help establish what Trump was trying to accomplish in the dying days of his presidency.
It was written in response to that, but then they chose words that already had established meaning for situations that were on a vastly smaller scale than the civil war.
Honestly that makes all kind of intuitive sense, in light of the fact that they made the disqualification hinge on oath breaking. A variety of oath breaking that has specifically to do with undermining the thing you swore to protect. Violating your oath like that doesn't have to involve a broader event that's on the scale of the Civil War.
(It's been long enough since the article came it out that it might be worthwhile for you to go back and reread the Baude/Paulsen article.)
Times like this I think that if a user has you blocked, it should at least alert you when you try to reply to them.
Which is to say... Brett, I still have you blocked because after your repeated insistence that Obergefell was to blame for Elane Photography, I concluded you were a waste of a brain, and I wouldn't waste mine reading your inane blabber.
Like the author, I have also avoided getting into the weeds of this issue, but take issue with the author's 3rd observation. The argument on page 23 of the Respondents brief is not that the words in the two oaths do not mean pretty much the same thing, the point made is that separate oaths are specified in the Constitution for (supposedly) different class of actor. I do not know how much weight to put on this argument, but better to meet it head on then to resort to sophistry.
From pg 23 of the Respondents brief:
Then there is the fact that section 3 applies only to
those who took an oath to “support” the Constitution of
the United States—the oath required by Article VI. See
U.S. Const. art. VI, § 3 (“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several
State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States,
shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this
Constitution” (emphasis added)). The president swears a
different oath set forth in Article II, in which he promises to “preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of
the United States”—and in which the word “support” is
nowhere to be found. See U.S. Const. art. II ¶ 8.
The President's oath is set forth in exact words to use, while others take an oath with language that can vary over time or context. Does that change the duties imposed on those who swear or affirm those oaths?
But both § 3 and the Constitutionally required oath for everyone else use the same word, “support”, and, indeed the oath they have to take, by law uses the exact same word - which is conspicuously absent in the President’s Constitutionally equirectangular oath.
No, it isn't. An oath to preserve/protect/defend the constitution is an oath to support it. Nothing in A14 or Article VI puts the word "support" in quotation marks.
“Officer” isn’t in quotes either. Very little, if anything, in the Constitution is. I put the word in quotes to highlight it. That’s what I, and many others, do, when we are arguing about words and phrases, esp when they are used in multiple places in a document. I am sure that I was doing it a couple times a week, before I retired as a patent attorney, since many of our arguments revolved around single words and short phrases, and how they related to each other.
Maybe Trump should then run for re-election on a campaign that during his entire first term he didn't 'support the constitution.' See how that works out.
The dildo of unintended consequences rarely comes lubed.
But both § 3 and the Constitutionally required oath for everyone else use the same word, “support”, and, indeed the oath they have to take, by law uses the exact same word – which is conspicuously absent in the President’s Constitutionally equirectangular oath.
Bruce,
You have conspicuously avoided my question. How are the obligations of the oaths different?
The current Article VI oath was, I believe, drafted in the 1860s. The original oath tracks Article VI pretty much exactly :
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States.”
But in the 1860s it was altered several times to finish up with the current version :
“I, _________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”
What was happening in the 1860s that made Congress so eager to amend and augment the text of the oath ?
Obviously the Congresses of the 1860s were not satisfied that the plain old simple oath to “support” was strong enough or detailed enough to satisfy the needs of the time. Which demonstrates that they did not think their repeated efforts to refine the text of the oath were immaterial to the obligations contained.
From which we can conclude that an oath to “support” is not obviously the same, in the content of its obligations, as an oath to do what is contained in the new oath. “Support” therefore may not encompass “defense” for example. (We may speculate as to whether Congress actually has the power to extend the boundaries of the obligations beyond the plain old support that is mentioned in Article VI but that is a matter for another day.)
Anyway, this illustrates that it was by no means obvious that the content of the obligations to be inferred from these various versions of the Article VI oath was the same, to the people who actually drafted and enacted the text of it. So it is not obvious why we should be any more confident about it, and likewise with the Article II oath which has different text again.
However as I mention elsewhere, your question about the obligations implied is a secondary one. Before we get to worrying about whether Trump broke his oath, we have to determine what oath he took.
And the close attention paid by the Congresses of the 1860s to the text of the Article II oath supports my thesis that the text of the oath is absolutely central. Oaths are made of words.
If you do not swear an oath to "support" the constitution, you cannot break your oath to "support" the constitution - even if you are breaking the oath you did take.
And the close attention paid by the Congresses of the 1860s to the text of the Article II oath
should of course be :
"And the close attention paid by the Congresses of the 1860s to the text of the Article VI oath "
Anyway, this illustrates that it was by no means obvious that the content of the obligations to be inferred from these various versions of the Article VI oath was the same, to the people who actually drafted and enacted the text of it. So it is not obvious why we should be any more confident about it, and likewise with the Article II oath which has different text again.
Is this where you found that information?
https://www.senate.gov/about/origins-foundations/senate-and-constitution/oath-of-office.htm
It seems that the Ironclad Test Oath included even more language than what is currently used. Such as stating that they had never aided or encouraged anyone that had taken up arms against the U.S. (Some of that was removed twenty years later.)
Imagine if that statement was part of the President’s oath now. Could Trump honestly make such a statement? Nah, that wouldn’t be a problem because then people would quibble over whether Jan. 6 counted as taking up arms against the U.S., just like they say that it wasn’t an insurrection.
Thus my question still goes unanswered. You have only said that the language is different, therefore the oaths can’t mean the same thing. But you don’t say a single thing to actually distinguish what is different in the meaning.
Oaths are symbolic. There were people at the Constitutional Convention that didn’t think there was any point to requiring them. A person unscrupulous enough to violate an oath would not be much discouraged from such behavior by having been made to speak one. Ultimately, they did include oaths as part of the Constitution, feeling that the show of loyalty was important. If nothing else, maybe they figured that being made to speak an oath essentially puts one on notice that they could be held accountable for acting against it. Perjury could certainly still be a crime even if people weren’t required to swear an oath to speak the truth when giving testimony in court.
In the end, I think that this is what is going on with Trump and his defenders, like you, arguing over the specifics of the language. The reason people are required to take oaths is that we feel that it is important that they make a display of understanding that their actions will have consequences if they don’t live up to their oath. As a symbolic gesture to acknowledge that holding public office involves a duty to act in accordance with the Constitution and serve the public, it isn’t the precise language that matters, but the intent of the person taking the oath and their subsequent actions. If you have to split hairs about whether “support” or “defend” mean the same thing, then you are clearly dodging the plain truth that Trump didn’t live up to the basic duties to the Constitution he had as President.
Leaving aside the amateur psychology, “support” is a rather vague term. Reasonable men, even reasonable women, could differ widely as to the obligations contained within it. It could be taken as extremely wide :
eg any time anyone criticises the constitution, you having sworn to “support” it, are obliged to pipe up and refute the criticism
or rather narrow :
eg when hordes of Mongol horsemen sweep across Washington DC, a-burnin’ and a-pillagin, and a-slicing the heads of Congresscritturs, you having sworn to “support” the constitution can discharge your obligation by writing a stiffly worded letter to the Ulaanbator Post.
That vagueness is presumably why the 1860s Congress had several goes at stiffening up the text, by adding in defense and stuff about foreign and domestic enemies and true faith and allegiance. Thus, you can certainly take the view – and I do – that “support and defend” is wider than “support.” And the 1860s Congress undoubtedly thought so too – otherwise they wouldn’t have changed the text of the oath.
I also think you’ve got the point of oaths wrong. With an oath you call on your God, or gods, to witness your promise. You are inviting retribution from deities, not leaving it to your fellow man. That’s why oaths are a big deal – you’re saying “you can rely on this because I’m inviting the Big Guy to enforce it against me.”
That’a also why you get the choice of affirming instead, if you are a heathen. Obviously if you are an affirmer, no one has any reason to believe you, contemptible as you are. And if you are a heathen who pretends to be a believer and swears an oath, then we can rely on you getting sentenced to eternal damnation for sassing God.
I also think you’ve got the point of oaths wrong. With an oath you call on your God, or gods, to witness your promise. You are inviting retribution from deities, not leaving it to your fellow man. That’s why oaths are a big deal – you’re saying “you can rely on this because I’m inviting the Big Guy to enforce it against me.”
Or, maybe the hypothetical God wants people to live with honesty and integrity all of the time, instead of just when they swear an oath. That is the way the Quakers looked at it, and that is why they refused to swear oaths. (A tradition that went back to the 17th century in England, at least.)
That’[s] also why you get the choice of affirming instead, if you are a heathen. Obviously if you are an affirmer, no one has any reason to believe you, contemptible as you are. And if you are a heathen who pretends to be a believer and swears an oath, then we can rely on you getting sentenced to eternal damnation for sassing God.
I'm going to assume you are trying to be funny here, rather than really saying that non-believers are contemptible. In any case, I hope you don't rely on people that break oaths getting punished by God. Given the lack of evidence that the Christian deity even exists, let alone punishes people with eternal torment, I think we are far better off judging the trustworthiness of people based on their past actions than on whether they are willing to swear an oath.
That is the way the Quakers looked at it, and that is why they refused to swear oaths. (A tradition that went back to the 17th century in England, at least.)
Not a tradition that seems to have cut much ice with the founders.
Not a tradition that seems to have cut much ice with the founders.
Enough that they put in the "or affirm".
If there’s a plausible argument that you can preserve, protect, and defend the constitution without supporting it, I’ve yet to encounter it.
That’s not the argument. The argument is that
“I make the following oath – I will buy you a burger and fries this evening”
and
“I make the following oath – I will feed you this evening”
are different oaths. If you swore you’d buy Bugsy a burger and fries, then if questioned in court later :
“Did you swear to feed Bugsy ?”
You can truthfully answer “No.”
Because that’s not what you swore. As Thomas More explains in the conversation with his daughter in A Man For All Seasons – an oath is made of words. And the Presidential oath does not contain the words “to support.” An oath is a literal thing. Not a general handwaving “that amounts to the same thing” thing. That different oaths may “amount to the same thing” when inspected semantically does not turn the first oath into the second.
Mike Hansberry’s point is a slightly different one – that the reference to “to support” in Section 3 is contextual evidence those referred to as officers of the US, should be understood as the sort of folk who have taken an oath “to support” the constitution who are covered.
Which reminds me. Mike Hansberry's point seems to me to be a standard use of "context" - ie we use the context of the words "to support" to throw light on the meaning of the "officers of the US."
ie context from the legal text we are trying to interpret.
But what is Prof Bray's "context" ? It seems to be context from the political situation from the time the legal text was being created. If legislative history and secret, unwritten, but all powerful, "purposes" that judges get from their ouija board are the embarrassing relatives that respectable interpreters of law do not like to admit to, I should have thought "the political climate of the time" context would be several notches less respectable.
That's the cousin who's actually doing time.
“Did you swear to feed Bugsy ?”
I'd say the answer is "yes," unless by "feed" you mean actually put the food in his mouth.
"I promise to come to work early tomorrow."
"I promise to be at work at 6AM tomorrow," when normal starting time is 8AM.
Did I promise to come to work early? Of course I did. Six AM is a subset of "early," just as buying someone a burger and fries is a subset of feeding them.
Let's hope you're not a lawyer prepping a client for testimony, if you think that's right.
There could be a difference in what Bugsy expected when a friend swore to buy him a burger and fries and what was actually said. But here is where the distinction might matter –
The friend takes Bugsy to a pizza place instead of somewhere that has burgers and fries on the menu. The friend might argue that he had really meant that he would provide some kind of meal, and he was just using a burger and fries as an example and to provide a context of what price range and setting the meal would entail.
On the other hand, if the friend doesn’t do anything to feed Bugsy at all, then the friend definitely broke his promise no matter what interpretation you give to him saying “burger and fries”.
Or, if the friend’s statement had been general, saying that he promised to “feed him tomorrow night” or “take [Bugsy] out to dinner,” then the friend would satisfy his promise with a wide range of food options, even if Bugsy had a burger in fries in his mind when his friend made that promise.
But this gets to why any distinction between “support” and “defend” is not relevant to Trump’s oath. Both would definitely include a promise not to violate or even only to undermine the Constitution with concrete acts.
It can be debated whether Trump did violate or undermine the Constitution, but it is not debatable as to whether doing so would break his oath, whether the oath included the word “support” or “defend.”
[edit: I really intended this as a reply to Lee]
I think your final paragraph explains my point better than I did.
The thing is, the point in question is not whether Trump broke his oath. Let us stipulate that he did. The question that is relevant here is what oath did Trump take ?
And the answer is that he never took an oath to “support” the constitution. He took a different one.
My point is that the oath is the words you say. What those words imply is a different question. Whether you break your oath is a question of what acts you take, ie that depends on the semantic content of the words of the oath. But to break an oath to “support” the constitution, you first need to make an oath to “support” it. Using the word “support.”
Breaking a different oath may be reprehensible, but it’s not relevant to Section 3.
What is different about taking an oath to support the Constitution from an oath to defend it?
See my comment above. The Civil War Congresses thought the difference between “support” and “defend” was sufficiently important that they amended the text of the Article VI oath to add “defend.”
Are we wiser than they ?
If the word "support" in the oath matters, then it follows that Congress could, by statute, immunize all officers against disqualification by changing their oaths. This would render the section null, allowing Congress to effectively amend the Constitution with a simple majority from each house. That can't be right: The Constitution lays out an amendment procedure which can't be bypassed with semantic tricks.
Any officer can immunise himself by eschewing an oath and affirming instead.
I do not find your “horrible” very horrible.
If the word “support” in the oath matters, then it follows that Congress could, by statute, immunize all officers against disqualification by changing their oaths.
I think, as well as not being very horrible, your argument cuts against you.
The Article VI "oath' (or affirmation) bit goes thus :
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution....."
Thus if Congress prescribes an oath (etc) purporting to codify this constitutional obligation that says something other than "support" then what is its authority for doing so ?
If the word "support" in the oath matters in Section 3 of 14A, it also matters in Article VI.
Incidentally, forcing myself to look up the actual statutorily prescribed oath in 5 U.S. Code § 3331, I noted a curiosity :
"An individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services, shall take the following oath: “I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States.."
which seems wrong to me. Because both swearing and affirming are described as subsets of "oath."
But that's not how Article VI sees it :
"shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation"
An oath and and affirmation are alternatives. And affirmation is not a type of oath, so far as Article VI is concerned, it's what you do if you don't want to take an oath.
Who drafted 5 U.S. Code § 3331 ?
I want my money back.
I found Prof Bray’s arguments surprisingly unconvincing.
His argument for example that the context explains why the President does not appoint or commission himself fails to explain why he doesn’t appoint or commission the Vice President either.
There’s no “self dealing” objection that prevents him appointing and commissioning the VP, but he doesn’t. Why not ? The most natural conclusion is that the VP is not among the folk the President is obliged to appoint or commission. The alternative conclusion is that Presidents have been doing it wrong for well over 200 years without anyone realising.
But the Reconstruction Congress was in the middle of fighting tooth and nail with Andrew Johnson. That Congress thought President Johnson was imperiling all that the Union soldiers fought for. Was that Congress creating an exception for President Johnson?
Is Prof Bray suggested that Andrew Johnson could have been removed by 14A Section 3, assuming that it applied to the President ?
Why was it not then applied to him ?
No one seemed to bat an eye when Senator Doolittle (R-WI) referred to the “President as the chief executive officer of the Government.” ( Congressional Globe p. 2914 May 31, 1866).
Ramblings of a Senator? Unless he was writing an amendment that latter of ratified by the states, its meaningless.
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any mention of Trump claiming to be the "CEO" of the US; most uses of "CEO president" I found in relation to Trump were derogatory or mocking. George W. Bush, however, once (maybe jokingly) called himself the "CEO President".
Even assuming that Prof Bray’s argument about Andrew Johnson is plausible, it contradicts his argument about overlap in the Impeachment Clause.
If it’s so important that it be made clear that the President and VP are impeachable, that it’s OK to risk a bit of overlap even though they’re covered as Officers of the United States, then why isnt it equally important to go for clarity and risk overlap in Section 3 of 14A ? Especially if it’s critical to be able to use Section 3 to get rid of Johnson ?
My view is that context is the tool of a scoundrel. He is essentially saying that the words don’t mean what they say, because of the context he provides. But then, context is in the eye of the beholder, and can be endlessly manipulated for advantage. Just look at how Dem controlled states are trying to get around the Supreme Court’s recent Bruen 2nd Amdt case.
Do you believe in God?
How old is the Earth?
Ask linguists what words mean separate from context. Not having any expertise in language, I can still say that context always matters to some degree. Only proper nouns have meanings separate from context, as far as I can tell.
Prof Bray’s legal faculty invitation scenario suffers from one or two obvious flaws, as an analogy for the officer of the United States thing.
1. It assumes the conclusion. We already know that Prof Bray is a member of the legal faculty. We don’t know whether the President is an Officer of the United States. That’s what we’re trying to work out.
2. Prof Bray is playing way too many roles in his analogy. Not only is he a member of the law faculty, but he is also the host, and the person making the proclamation. With the “officer” that is three different people – the person who might or might not be an officer of the US, the President and the writers of the Constitution. In particular, the President is not issuing orders to himself. Whereas Bray is.
3. This is not an official proclamation it’s a social invitation with the context that that brings. Which is why – apart from the fact that the conclusion is already assumed – it seems silly to say that the host might not show. With the “officer” thing, it’s an extremely official proclamation, lacking any “c’mon guys” social context.
In context, it’s not a very analogous analogy.
Let’s rewrite the analogy in a somewhat more analogous form.
The President of the University announces that “As from next Wednesday, all law faculty, when teaching a class, must wear an official wig and gown throughout the class. All law faculty must collect their official wigs and gowns from Aloysius Bray before Tuesday at 1pm, and sign a receipt witnessed by said Bray.”
Aloysius Bray is a graduate student. Last semester he acted as a “teaching assistant”, this semester he’s slated to stick to research, though he might teach a class at need.
But can he take a class without a wig and gown ? Can he witness his own receipt ?
Is he included within “all law faculty” ? Is it obvious from the context what the answer is ?
Maybe in some universities the answer is obviously “yes”, in others, obviously “no.” Maybe the relevant context is past practice ?
Is it more obvious if we extend the analogy and note that this wig and gown thing is not new ? A new wig and gown is issued each semester, the peon responsible for handing them out and witnessing the receipt is always someone in Mr Bray’s position, and never in the 200 plus years of the law faculty’s existence has the peon witnessed his own form, or been criticized for not wearing a wig and gown when teaching a class.