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Ideologically Mixed Amicus Brief Stresses Need for S. Ct. to Resolve Merits of the Trump Disqualification Case
"The Court has the power to resolve the question presented, and it must do so now."
From an amicus brief by Prof. Ned Foley, Ben Ginsberg, and Prof. Rick Hasen in Trump v. Anderson; for more on the amici, see the end of the post:
Amici often do not see eye to eye on matters of law or policy. But they join together in this brief to make a single, urgent point: A decision from this Court leaving unresolved the question of Donald Trump's qualification to hold the Office of President of the United States under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment until after the 2024 election would risk catastrophic political instability, chance disenfranchising millions of voters, and raise the possibility of public violence before, on, and after November 5, 2024. And the grounds for avoiding the merits are not credible: Colorado manifestly had the authority to determine Mr. Trump's legal qualification for the office he seeks, and this Court has jurisdiction to review that federal-law decision on its merits.
To punt on the merits would invite chaos while risking great damage to the Court's reputation and to the Nation as a whole. The country is more polarized today than at any other time in living memory—certainly more than in December 2000, when this Court last decided a case with a direct impact on the outcome of a presidential election. Controversy over the 2020 election led millions of Americans to doubt the integrity of the electoral system and ultimately culminated in the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021. Political tensions have not eased in the time since. Quite the opposite: political discourse has stoked further public skepticism of the electoral system since January 2021. Amici thus file this brief, not only to demonstrate that the Court can reach the merits of Mr. Trump's qualification under Section 3, but that it should do so, or else risk political instability not seen since the Civil War.
The possible scenarios if the Court fails to resolve the Section 3 question once and for all are alarming. If Mr. Trump wins an electoral-vote majority, it is a virtual certainty that some Members of Congress will assert his disqualification under Section 3. That prospect alone will fan the flames of public conflict. But even worse for the political stability of the Nation is the prospect that Congress may actually vote in favor of his disqualification after he has apparently won election in the Electoral College. Neither Mr. Trump nor his supporters, whose votes effectively will have been discarded as void, are likely to take such a declaration lying down.
Even if Mr. Trump did willingly stand aside, it is wholly unclear who would be inaugurated as President on January 20, 2025—would it be Mr. Trump's running mate, pursuant to the Twentieth Amendment? Would it be Mr. Biden, pursuant to a Twelfth Amendment election in the House? Or would it be some alternate candidate thrown into the mix in the heat of the political battle? The chance that there would be no clear answer come Inauguration Day 2025—and that the country thereby would be thrown into a possibly catastrophic constitutional crisis—is disturbingly high….
Amici take no position on the question whether Mr. Trump is disqualified from the presidency under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Reasonable arguments can be made on both sides of that question, and those issues are amply briefed by the parties and other friends of the Court. Amici offer their views here for a more basic point: The Court has the power to resolve the question presented, and it must do so now….
We appreciate fully that the Members of this Court would prefer not to be thrust into the midst of a presidential election like this. But there is no avoiding it. "[W]hen a federal court has jurisdiction, it also has a virtually unflagging obligation to exercise" its authority to resolve the legal questions put to it. Mata v. Lynch, 576 U.S. 143, 150 (2015) (cleaned up). A decision vacating the lower court's judgment on procedural or jurisdictional grounds, thus reinstating Mr. Trump on the ballot without deciding the merits of the disqualification question, would not reflect an admirable judicial modesty; it would instead mark a dangerous refusal by this Court to do its duty….
It is unavoidable that the Court's decision in this case will influence the course of the 2024 election. And it would be a gamble to assume that President Biden will win reelection. If he does not, or if it is unclear whether he has won, the Court will be inviting, and almost surely thrusting itself into the middle of, post-election tumult and potential public violence.
Any contention that the time and place for determining Section 3's applicability is on January 6, 2025, after the election is concluded, invites disaster for the Nation. It is of course speculation how exactly the election would play out with an unresolved Section 3 cloud hanging over Mr. Trump's head, but none of the options is tolerable. Virtually all of them would lead to serious conflict both within Congress and among the general public. Consider the following very realistic scenarios.
[a.] Imagine Mr. Trump wins an electoral-vote majority, and Members of Congress assert Section 3 disqualification
If Mr. Trump ostensibly wins the Electoral College, it is a certainty that some Members of Congress will invoke Section 3 in an effort to prevent him from returning to the presidency. They will argue that only a majority of both houses is necessary for disqualification and that a majority of both houses already made a determination that Mr. Trump is disqualified under Section 3 when the House impeached him over the January 6 incursion and 57 senators voted to convict.
Whether or not this effort is successful, it would risk serious political instability between November 2024 and January 2025. It is admittedly impossible to predict with confidence exactly what additional dominoes would fall if Mr. Trump's qualification is publicly tested in Congress. It is enough to acknowledge that the potential for violence—targeted against individual lawmakers and the government generally—is very real. That potential would be avoided by a pre-election answer in this case.
In saying this, we acknowledge that if the Court were to affirm the Colorado Supreme Court's decision that Mr. Trump is disqualified from the ballot, public discord may also follow. But the degree of civil unrest from a pre-election disqualification is certain to be far less than following a disqualification after Mr. Trump has won a majority of electoral votes. It is much harder to accept having something taken away than it is to be denied the thing in the first place—a truism this Court has previously recognized in the electoral context. See LULAC v. Perry, 548 U.S. 399, 439-440 (2006).
[b.] Imagine Mr. Trump wins an electoral-vote majority and Congress declares him disqualified
Now suppose that a majority of both houses actually votes in favor of disqualification, and Mr. Trump—ostensibly having won a majority of electors—is declared ineligible to hold the office. The existing constitutional and statutory rules applicable in such a situation are dangerously unclear, and the risk of violence and instability would be overwhelming.
As a threshold point, there is no guarantee that Mr. Trump would accept a congressional disqualification. He likely would not—and, as he did on January 6, 2021, he may invite his supporters to resist with violence.
But even before that, it is unclear how a disqualification by Congress would play out. The Twelfth Amendment calls for a Joint Session to conduct a count of electoral votes, but there is no playbook for when the candidate receiving a majority of votes is declared ineligible to occupy the office. For instance, if the votes for that candidate are nullified, denying any candidate a majority of the vote, would the election be sent to the House of Representatives under the Twelfth Amendment?
The Electoral Count Reform Act of 2022 suggests so. As amended, 3 U.S.C. § 15(d)(2)(B)(ii)(II) permits objections to electoral votes on the ground that they are "not * * * regularly given." The term "not regularly given" historically has been understood to encompass electoral votes cast for a person who is not eligible to hold the office. See Derek Muller, Electoral Votes Regularly Given, 55 Georgia L. Rev. 1529, 1537 (2021).
The statute specifies that electoral votes "shall not be counted" if a procedurally proper objection is sustained by both the House and the Senate. 3 U.S.C. § 15(e)(1)(B). But it does not appear to permit the subtraction of votes invalidated as "not * * * regularly given" from the denominator for purposes of calculating a majority share of "the whole number of electors." See id. § 15(e)(2). If that is correct and Mr. Trump receives the majority of all electoral votes, his disqualification would mean that no qualified candidate receives a majority.
The election thus would be sent to the House under the Twelfth Amendment, which specifies that "if no person [wins a] majority" in the Electoral College, "the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President." If Mr. Biden were the only other candidate who receives electoral votes, he would be the only candidate the House could select. He thus would be declared President-elect, despite that Mr. Trump will have won a majority of electoral votes cast.
Such an outcome, although mandated by the plain terms of 3 U.S.C. § 15(e) and the Twelfth Amendment, would create two alarming problems. First, and perhaps more obvious, it would rile the Nation for the House to install in the presidency the opponent of the candidate who had won a majority of the electoral votes. Second, it would appear to place the ECRA and the Twelfth Amendment in conflict with the Twentieth Amendment, which provides that "the Vice President elect shall act as President" if the President-elect "shall have failed to qualify" to take the office by Inauguration Day.
All of this would leave it dangerously unclear who, following a disqualification of Mr. Trump, should serve as President. Throw into the mix Mr. Trump's certain refusal to accept any disqualification by Congress, and there would be no way to know who is entitled to act as President and commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces starting at noon on January 20. The consequences of that uncertainty would be existentially perilous to the United States, and they must be avoided if at all possible.
[c.] Imagine no candidate wins an electoral-vote majority and the House declares Mr. Trump disqualified
Finally, imagine a less likely but still plausible scenario in which a third party candidate joins the race and wins sufficient electoral votes to deny any one candidate a majority in the Electoral College. Or similarly, imagine a 269-269 Electoral College tie between Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden. Here, the election would be sent the House under the Twelfth Amendment, and the question of Mr. Trump's disqualification under Section 3 could arise not just once, but twice: first in the Joint Session for counting the electoral votes, and then in the House during its Twelfth Amendment proceedings.
In this case, suppose one-fifth of each chamber signs a Section 3 objection in the Joint Session, triggering separate votes in each chamber under the ECRA. 3 U.S.C. § 15(d)(2). Now suppose that the House votes to sustain the objection, but the Senate does not. Under the ECRA, the objection would fail and Mr. Trump's electoral votes would be counted. At the end of the count, however, the election would proceed to the House under the Twelfth Amendment, where each State delegation is afforded a single vote.
To start, the House would need to establish rules for conducting the election. See U.S. Const. art. I, § 5, cl. 2 ("Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings."). Democrats in the House would have a partisan incentive to adopt a rule provision first requiring a majority vote on each candidate's qualification to hold office. If they held a majority of the House, Democrats could sustain an objection to Mr. Trump's candidacy on Section 3 grounds and exclude him from the ballot in its Twelfth Amendment election.
This, too, would introduce a major constitutional crisis. Mr. Trump and his supporters may then contend that the House is not empowered to disqualify a candidate for President without the concurrence of the Senate. Democrats may alternatively contend that the majority of the House has the constitutional power to determine its own rules, as long as those rules permit each state delegation a single vote in the Twelfth Amendment election.
How would this constitutional crisis be resolved? Would the Court be called on to resolve the dispute, despite its nakedly political valence? Or would the tribal politics of the day invite resolution of the disagreement by violence? We all should shudder at that possibility. And the risk of this outcome—along with all the other deeply troubling scenarios like it—would be significantly reduced by this Court's resolution of the Section 3 question now, before the 2024 general election takes place.
The situation now is more perilous than in 2000, and putting off a decision (as it did then) would risk disenfranchising voters
Finally, it is worth contrasting the current situation with the aftermath of the 2000 election. As Florida conducted its recounts and litigation swirled, this Court initially returned the case to the Florida Supreme Court with the suggestion that it consider the question of whether Florida's procedures were constitutional. Bush v. Palm Beach County Canvassing Board, 531 U.S. 70 (2000). This unanimous punt kept the Court temporarily on the sidelines as the recount process and litigation continued; depending upon how the recount went, it was conceivable that this Court would avoid weighing in. Alas that was not to be. Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (2000).
This time, however, kicking the can down the road would be far more fraught for the country. There is every reason to believe that disqualification challenges will continue to proliferate if this Court fails to give guidance. In the meantime, voters who cast their votes for Mr. Trump risk disenfranchisement for supporting a candidate who may later be held ineligible for office. Because they won't get a do-over, these voters deserve to know now whether their ballots for Mr. Trump will be counted.
Further, requiring Congress to take up the issue in an inherently political process, on the fourth anniversary of the U.S. Capitol riot, would be a tailor-made moment for chaos and instability. The pressure on Congress from all sides would be enormous, as would be the temptation to resolve the disqualification question not as a matter of the legal or factual merit, but as an exercise of political power. This Court stands between the potentially disastrous turmoil that would result and a comparatively peaceful election administered consistent with the Constitution and the rule of law. It should not let this opportunity to stave off political instability pass….
Here's a description of the amici:
Edward B. Foley is the Charles W. Ebersold and Florence Whitcomb Ebersold Chair in Constitutional Law and director of the election law program at The Ohio State University Moritz College of Law. He is a current Guggenheim Fellow and, for the Spring 2024 term, a Distinguished Visitor at the University of Arizona James E. Rogers College of Law. Among his many publications is Presidential Elections and Majority Rule (2020), which explores the long-forgotten philosophical premises underlying the post-Twelfth Amendment Electoral College. The second edition of his seminal book, Ballot Battles: The History of Disputed Elections in the United States, will be released in spring 2024.
Benjamin L. Ginsberg has spent his career working in the trenches of Republican politics. He practiced law for 38 years before retiring in 2020. During that time, he represented numerous political parties, political campaigns, candidates, members of Congress and state legislatures, governors, and others in matters including federal and state campaign finance laws, redistricting, ethics and gifts rules, pay-to-play laws, election administration, government investigations, communications law, and election recounts and contests. He represented four of the past six Republican presidential nominees (including, through his former law firm, President Trump's 2020 campaign). He played a central role in the 2000 Florida recount. Mr. Ginsberg also co-chaired the bipartisan 2013 Presidential Commission on Election Administration.
Richard L. Hasen is Professor of Law and Political Science at UCLA School of Law, where he directs the Safeguarding Democracy Project, which aims to preserve free and fair elections in the United States. Professor Hasen is an internationally recognized expert in election law, and author of many books on elections and election law including, most recently, A Real Right to Vote (Princeton University Press 2024). From 2001-2010, he served as founding co-editor of the quarterly peer-reviewed publication, Election Law Journal. He is the author of over 100 articles on election law issues, published in numerous journals including the Harvard Law Review, Stanford Law Review and Supreme Court Review….
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I agree, but aren't amici required to support one side or the other?
No, briefs in support of neither party are allowed. The theoretical point, after all, is to be a friend of the court -- to offer argument that might help the court reach its conclusion. That argument need not point to a bottom-line result in favor of one or the other party.
Right. If anything, amici who support neither party are actually closer to the intended function of amicus briefs (to help the court) than a lot of party-supporting amicus briefs are.
That sounds like a bingo.
Has the court asked for help?
Amici briefs are typically position papers meant to sway the court toward an action ... they are neither neutral nor balanced.
The flawed notions by A14 S3 advocates must be resolved now. Immaturity must be scolded now.
Ha. The A14 S3 terms are pretty clear to most of us (lawyers and lay people alike). Are you saying the drafters of that amendment were "immature". Never heard such a ridiculous argument that Trump, the Commander in Chief, was not an "officer". Or planning for weeks, (or months) to storm the Capital to force the VP to disregard the electoral votes, was not an "insurrection". Calibresi is a member of Volokh Conspiracy, which claims to be "independent". I bet if Obama had done what Trump did, his opinions, and amici briefs, would be very different.
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This blog also claims to be libertarian -- it's part of the self-description (conservative, Federalist Society, and right-wing are not).
Not much of what these guys say checks out.
"ultimately culminated in the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021."
"Storming". Somehow I don't think that word means what you think it means.
"Mostly calm storming."
Lame. All stormings are mostly calm. Once the perimeter is breached and the defenses defeated, everyone else can literally waltz in.
Here's an event that is 95 percent calm.
This one is only about 90 percent calm.
Fla. man sentenced to 5 years after attacking 6 officers on Jan. 6
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/01/17/bonawitz-sentenced-jan6/
Let's hope those five years are served in the hardest way that is lawful and reasonable. Maybe his family members will abandon him because they do not wish to associate with a lying, violent, un-American, right-wing, criminal stain on society.
I'm not sure giving the Justices a parade of hypothetical horribles is the most persuasive way to go. But the point that it's a messier problem after Inauguration Day seems correct.
Do you really think they would all be hypothetical horribles were Trump to win the general? It just doesn't seem realistic that everyone who is currently in the process of literally losing their minds over this would suddenly just calmly shrug and say: "Well alrighty then -- you win some, you lose some. Carry on...."
The problem with the horribles is that they're easy to argue against, undermining the brief, even though the horribles aren't really the point.
For example, the brief seems to imagine everyone sitting around twiddling their thumbs until Jan 6. That won't happen -- there's sure to be more litigation (which the ECRA anticipates). SCOTUS could easily disregard the brief by thinking that they'll surely get another bite at the apple if necessary.
No, but that's my point. The Court is far better equipped to address actual facts than provisional futures. They try not to offer advisory opinions for just that reason. So while I agree with you that chaos will occur if Trump were to win the general (or even if not?), I think it's a misstep to spend a lot of briefing playing out the multiverse of chess moves by the parties and governmental bodies. I think the urgency can be conveyed without all the "we're-so-clever" guesswork.
"Do you really think they would all be hypothetical horribles were Trump to win the general?"
Are you certain that you understand the concept of a hypothetical? Because "were Trump to win" is positing the same hypothetical. You're saying it could hypothetically not be a hypothetical and therefore isn't hypothetical at all. That isn't how it works.
All those officials trying to stop Trump's return to the White House should be charged with insurrection, and banned from office under the 14.3A.
Grow up
I'd prefer running them out of town on a rail (after a proper tarring and feathering)
What is the amount of deference that needs to be provided to the Colo. fact-finding, see generally, Plata, Scalia, J. dissenting.
This is a very good question, and I haven't seen anyone on the "the Supreme Court must resolve this now" side answer it. The trial court in Colorado made findings of fact. Are those binding on every other state in the nation? Will the Supreme Court hold a trial of its own? If the answer to these questions are "no" (and I think they are), then a judgment affirming the Colorado Supreme Court will most likely entail a ruling that the trial court's findings of fact were not an abuse of discretion. Which does not mean the question of whether Donald Trump "engaged" in an insurrection or rebellion has been finally resolved.
In short, if the Supreme Court is convinced (by this amicus brief or otherwise) that it must finally resolve the issue of whether Trump is qualified, doesn't that favor Trump?
Is it possible for them to somehow order the case removed to federal court for a new trial? I get that would be pretty unusual but … maybe?
Another option is a special master. That would be a very special master.
No basis to remove. If the states have the right to enforce 14/3 then they can try the issue in their own systems. I do think SCOTUS has to defer to the lower court fact-finding. And yes, that does mean States may differ about whether a candidate is eligible under the Constitution. The possibility of inconsistent results is a good reason for Congress to federalize the procedure by statute, but that isn't the situation at present.
Does this really come up in no other context, where you have a fact-based federal question with nationwide impact being decided on a state record?
Considering that the Colorado court gave deference to the one-sided partisan J6 committee, all of its analysis should be ignored.
Ah yes, anyone who agrees with my enemy is wrong.
The trial court admitted the committee report after analyzing its admissibility under the Colorado Rules of Evidence. Among the factors considered were that the Select Committee was bipartisan, and that its findings were unanimous.
You expose yourself with that...bipartisan does not mean unbiased or objective. There were only 2 "Republicans" on the committee because they already agreed with the majority that Trump was guilty. (Any other Republican nominees being rejected by the speaker, thereby stacking the deck.) They were just going about finding the evidence to support their preordained conclusion.
That said, I will happily stipulate that everything fact specific in their report is true. The problem is their conclusion, which is inevitably subjective. As a Never Trumper, I already believed Trump unfit for office. His conduct leading up to Jan 6 amplifies my belief. That doesn't make him guilty of insurrection. People accusing Trump of insurrection is why the Founders included a specific definition of treason in the Constitution--because it too had been used a political weapon in English history. If it's such a slam dunk case, so blindingly obvious, I'd expect to see him and others criminally charged with it. I would be the first to support that, if there was some smoking gun evidence. But there isn't, which is why such a criminal charge hasn't been brought against anyone.
The MAGA side views themselves as the legitimate winners, not the usurpers. Deluded, but their actual belief. Overcoming that requires some actual evidence, which the Jan 6 committee failed to produce. If anything, they prove my contention. Just saw another thing today, someone breathlessly claiming that election officials somewhere failed to use signature verification. Ergo, the election was stolen, because those ballots are suspect. As if we could make any reasonable conclusions about which ballots were faulty. Stupid, but that's how their minds work.
Maddog, you are right that bipartisan doesn't guarantee unbiased. That's why it is "among the factors considered" and is subject to counterargument. Trump even made those arguments. but the court was not convinced. If you want to understand why I recommend reading the opinion starting on page 8.
"Ergo, the election was stolen, because those ballots are suspect."
In a game of poker, if the player who won't let the other guy cut the cards subsequently wins the hand, there's no way he's convincing the guy who lost that the deck wasn't stacked.
It doesn't matter that refusing to let the deck be cut isn't proof it's stacked, or for that matter, in whose favor. It's all about who wouldn't permit the procedure that would guarantee it wasn't stacked.
When the guy who wins won't permit a procedure that would prevent cheating, it creates the presumption he cheated. Not as a matter of formal logic, but of basic human psychology. You might compare it to the way spoilation of evidence creates the presumption the evidence destroyed was damaging to the party guilty of the spoilation.
In 2000 we were at the highest level of partisan distrust since maybe the run up to the Civil war. We couldn't afford to cut any corners at all, to sacrifice even a tiny bit of transparency, of perfectly obvious rule following. We couldn't afford to create any cause for doubting the outcome at all.
So, of course Democrats insisted that it was time to make all sorts of ad hoc changes to how elections were conducted, to kick out election observers everywhere they could get away with it, and double down on demanding that we trust things even as the shitcanned all sorts of safeguards.
God, how stupid that was, if they actually wanted anybody to trust the outcome.
That is a complete and total and utter lie, and if I felt like going to my thesaurus I’d use a bunch more similar adjectives to describe it.
Pelosi rejected just 2 Republican suggestions by McCarthy — Jim Banks and Jim Jordan. She accepted 3 others: Rodney Davis, Kelly Armstrong, and Troy Nehls.
The 14th Amendment amended the Constitution as originally enacted by the Founders, so their understanding is not necessarily relevant to the subsequent amendments. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the drafters of the 14th Amendment referred to "insurrection or rebellion" in part because the Constitution's reference to "treason" was not sufficient to capture the wrong they wanted the Constitution to combat or the remedy they wanted it to prescribe.
I just looked, and the sky is not falling.
Yes it is. Of course that's a good thing. If the sky wasn't falling it would drift off into space and we would have real problems.
+1 for physics humor.
+3 for atmosphere science joke in this warren of atmospheric science skeptics. (How DO scientists manage to measure the air, anyway??)
"And the grounds for avoiding the merits are not credible: Colorado manifestly had the authority to determine Mr. Trump's legal qualification for the office he seeks, and this Court has jurisdiction to review that federal-law decision on its merits."
No, Colorado did not.
You're missing the point. The states definitely do get to decide who's on their ballots, and that includes evaluating their qualifications. There's no federal department of candidate eligibility.
But when, as here, a state's analysis invokes federal law, SCOTUS can review that analysis... including by saying things like "14/3 isn't self-executing, so you're not allowed to take it into account when you do your elegibility determination which manifestly belongs to you to do."
Read it again: they’re saying that Colorado can review candidates’ qualifications, not that the court was correct to determine that Trump wasn’t qualified.
Or do you think that states have to let, say, a 20 year old foreign citizen on the ballot?
How about this, from Section 3 of the 20th Amendment (it did more than just move up the Inauguration date)
" Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President-elect nor a Vice President-elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified."
It's only been 90 years and Congress still hasn't passed any law to "Provide"
Frank
That scenario is covered by the Presidential Succession Act of 1947. The same line of succession regarding if both the President and VP died applies to if neither "shall have qualified" for their respective offices.
Gingrich was going to impeach and remove Clinton and refuse to approve Gore’s VP replacement and then impeach and remove Gore.
How would Gore be removed, if the Senate would not even vote to convict Clinton? #troll
Gingrich thought they would remove both of them. DeSantis thought he would beat Trump. Duuuuuuuuuuh
How was Gingrich going to remove anyone, let alone two people? Since when does Speaker of the House play a role in removal?
The doctrine of constitutional avoidance doesn’t dissappear just because tempers are hot and amici get all flustered. Under that doctrine, federal courts reviewing s state court judgment should refrain from deciding a federal question if the state court had an adequate and independent state-law ground for the decision. Deciding a federal question would be an advisory opinion in this case, as it would not change the underlying result.
It is not within the judicial power under Article III for federal courts to give advisory opinions. This is so no matter how badly amici think the country needs the advice.
In this case, Colorado could have disqualified Trump from its ballot under its state legislature’s plenary authority to direct the manner of appointing its presidential electors. Its reading of Section 3 is eminently plausible even if not the US Supreme Court’s reading. (I think it’s correct, but that’s not the point here.) Its legislature has plenary authority to determine what kinds of presidential electors can get appointed to represent Colorado, and to set limits on what kind of candidates they can be permitted to pledge to support.
Our framers laid out a system for selecting a President that includes a role for state legislators, an electoral college, and Congress. It is not for the Supreme Court to ignore the role or the rights of any of these parties by unnecessarily taking matters into its own hands.
The Supreme Court should uphold the judgment of the Colorado Supreme Court as within the constitutional power of the State of Colorado to decide for itself.
I think ReaderY's argument is precluded by U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995). There the Court rejected State-imposed Congressional term limits as being mere ballot access rules. The same reasoning should apply to disqualification under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.
Chiafolo v. Washington decisively refuted the application of US Term Limits to presidential elections. In that case, several Presidential electors claimed that states couldn’t impose any limits on who they could vote for, arguing that Presidential elections are like Congressional ones and that U.S. Term Limits applied to Presidential elections, as you say. But the Supreme Court upheld stste legislatures’ power under the Elector Appointment Clause to require not only that Presidential electors pledge to vote for a specific candidate as a condition of being appointed, but to punish them if they don’t honor their pledge.
The constitution provides for elections for members of Congress. But being a presidential elector is NOT an elected position under our Constitution. It is an appointed position, just like being a federal judge is.
Nobody has suggested that US Term Limits has anything to do with the manner of appointing federal judges. Why should anyone think it has anything to do with the manner of appointing presidential electors?
This case isn't about Presidential electors, it's about qualifications for the Presidency. U.S. Term Limits makes it clear that qualifications for a federal office are a federal matter.
U.S. Term Limits makes it clear that qualifications for a federal office are a federal matter.
Is there some legal authority to interpret that to mean congress or the courts get the power to do it? I thought it meant the jointly sovereign People do that. Are there some qualifications for federal office that the sovereign People did not decree in their Constitution?
"the jointly sovereign People do that"
How do thy do so in real time? Speak from a cloud in the sky?
No, in the end Congress or the Courts will speak and decide
Nico, we are talking about qualifications to hold federal offices. As a nay sayer, let's hear your answer to the question, "Are there some qualifications for federal office that the sovereign People did not decree in their Constitution?"
Since all offices are included and since you implicitly expect the SP to speak explicitly, the answer is yes, most qualifications for office are not stated explicitly. For example where is the qulification for the Secretary of Energy stated? Or the Director of NASA? However, the question was “who is to decide,” the Congress and the Courts
Nico, you have the tense wrong. The question was decided more than a century and a half ago. It was decided by constitutional amendment, by the population of the nation as a whole.
Your demand is to reopen the question. You demand to create an opportunity for a few government officials to re-answer it, differently. The officials you want to empower need to number no more than 5. At least 3 of those 5 have scandalous personal history of ignoring politically corrupt conflicts of interest.
Those 3 continue to refuse to recuse from cases where politically partisan outcomes are at stake. Justices Alito and Thomas have permitted themselves to be bribed by political partisans. Justice Gorsuch is a former business partner of a person involved in an upcoming case—in a business used for the purpose to practice partisan influence. That case will decide whether to overturn the doctrine of Chevron deference. It was reported last night that Justice Gorsuch has refused to recuse from that case.
All 3 of those justices, at least, have a personal stake in the outcome of the next election—to hold at bay their own impeachments. They thus have personal interests to put Trump in the White House to weaponize the Justice Department against members of the House and Senate, whom those justices have already acted overtly to treat as political enemies. Former President Trump has announced publicly his intention to use the Justice Department for that purpose of partisan attack against Democratic officeholders.
It is into that mess of stinking scandal that you propose to toss a question implicating the actual survival of American constitutionalism—on apparently hallucinatory grounds of procedural propriety. "Who is to decide,?" you ask, and answer, "Ignore the Constitution, and pick these deciders instead."
In fairness to you, I do not suppose you favor corruption, or want to advance it. I think your judgment is bad, because you are frightened.
Sorry, but you not only have the tense wrong, but you thing that history has stopped. And you deny that there are issues that demand resolution in the present. Resolution means that some persons in the present, not those long dead, must and will decide.
For sake of argument, let's suppose that you Sovereigns have spoken authoritatively in the holy text. Tell us, how will those in the present decide? Are you a textualist or and originalist? Don't duck.
I am not frightened at all. I expect that judges, acting in good faith, will decide. May on textualists, or originalist, or utilitarian, or consequentialist grounds.That is their duty as officers of the United States.
My impression is that it is you who are frightened because you fear what the Courts will decide. All the rest is just mumbo-jumbo.
Constitutional amendments are ratified by the states, not the population of the nation as a whole. (And, except for the 21st, by the state legislatures.)
Well, how can providing for popular elections to appoint electors be permissible under your theory? The constitution doesn’t require a person to be approved by a majority of a state’s voters to be qualified for the state’s electors to cast their votes for that person as president. This whole business of involving citizens in the matter was something added entirely by state legislatures. A state-law requirement that a candidate for president must have the approval of a plurality of a state’s voters is simply an addition to the constitutional qualifications for President. And it’s an addition created by state legislatures. Why is that constitutional?
Why isn’t imposing the requirement that a candidate must have the approval of a plurality of the state’s citizen-voters just as unconstitutional an addition to the qualifications for being president as any other addition a state legislature might want to impose?
So why couldn’t a state decide a president shouldn’t serve more than one term and on its own make him ineligible for re-election by deciding he cannot appear on the ballot? I say that US Term Limits applies to that. Colorado decided here, as a matter of state law, that a person disqualified (under that states determination of a federal constitutional provision) from an office cannot therefore appear on the ballot.
There’s plenty of case law elsewhere that a person can be elected to an office when technically not qualified, as long as they will be eligible for that office when their term begins. Sure, not quite the same here, because if Trump is legitimately disqualified, the mere possibility of that disability being removed is only theoretical. The point is that his disability is in dispute, and that a Colorado state court’s fact finding may be insufficient as a matter of law whether disqualification correctly meets the constitutional definition of insurrection. Much like Schrodinger’s cat, another state court could decide he is not disqualified. Different state’s reaching opposite conclusions about something that is supposed to be objectively true is problematic. Ballot (dis)qualifications are supposed to be about indisputable facts: age, citizenship, residency. Here we're dealing with whether particular conduct meets a constitutional threshold. Adjudicating that does not sound self-executing. Of course, we've got a pre-existing legal framework for that: the federal crime of insurrection.
Because that's not a "requirement" of a candidate. That's a "manner" of choosing the electors.
But Chiafolo held that states have power to determine who electors shall be permitted to vote for. That goes well beyond just the manner of appointing them. Chiafolo specifically rejected the Hamilton Electors’ claim that the state power is limited to directing the manner of their appointmet. The state can also direct who they are permitted to vote for.
When the state limts who they are permitted to vote for, it is limiting who is QUALIFIED for them to vote for. That’s exactly what it’s doing.
By the same power the state of Washington had to tell it’s appointed elector Mr. Chiafolo that he can’t vote for Collin Powell because Colin Powell didn’t have the approval of the plurality of the state’s citizen-voters in the approval poll that occurred contemporaneously with his appointment, the Stare of Colorado can tell its wwlwctors that they canmt vote for Mr.Trump because Mr. Trump is an insurrectionist. The power to limit and sirect who the state’s electors are permitted to vote for is simply a component part of the appointment power. That’s what Chiafolo v. Washington said and held.
If the state power was limited to the manner of appointment, and didn’t include the power to direct who the electors can vote for, Chiafolo would have won his case.
No, it isn't. Those are two entirely different words with two entirely different meanings.
That was not what it said or held. You have this idée fixe that states can just do whatever the hell they want after an election, but that was not the holding of the case. The holding of the case was that states could require electors to vote for the people they pledged to vote for.
Indeed, the Supreme Court expressly disclaimed your attempt to read the holding too broadly, stating, "And if a State adopts a condition on its appointments that effectively imposes new requirements on presidential candidates, the condition may conflict with the Presidential Qualifications Clause, see Art. II, §1, cl. 5."
US Term Limits v Thornton decided that states could not add qualifications for candidates for Congress. Is there jurisprudence that supports your assertion that the decision applies to qualifications for any federal office?
It did not. Indeed, it cited US Term Limits only in passing for the proposition that the states' power to appoint Electors derives from the constitution rather than being an inherent power of states.
Collin Powell was qualified by the Constitution to be President. Mr. Chiafolo wanted to vote for him. The State of Washington said he couldn’t. In saying Mr. Chiafolo couldn’t vote for Collin Powell, The State of Washington said he wasn’t qualified to get the State of Washington’s electoral support for President. The State of Washington imposed an extra-constitutional qualification.
Mr. Chiafolo had argued that states can only determine the manner of appointment of Presidential electors, and once appointed Presidential electors are no different from Congressional electors, who under US Term Limits can’t be limited in who they are permitted to vote for.
But the Supreme Court disagreed. It said Presidential electors and elections ARE different from Congressional electors and elections. It said that presidential electors, unlike congressional ones, are effectively ministerial creatures of the state legislatures, and state legislatures have the power not only to appoint Presidential electors, but also to direct who they are permitted to vote for. And a state legislature can give any voting directions to its electors it cares to.
“Thou must vote for a non-insurrectionist” is as permissable a direction as “Thou must vote for a candidate who wins the plurality of the pre-election approval poll contemporaneous with your appointment.”
If one isn’t a limitation on who is qualified to be elected the President in the state for purposes of US Term Limits, the other isn’t either. If one is, so is the other.
You may like one kind of direction and not like the other as a policy matter. But there is no constitutional basis for distinguishing the two.
No, they didn't. They didn't say one word about his qualifications. Indeed, as I just noted above, they cannot say that. The Constitution, not the states, decide on qualifications.
Footnote 4 from Chiafolo left the issue unsettled. The answer might be different for qualifications explicitly mentioned in the Constitution (e.g, age and engaging in an insurrection) versus anything else (e.g., college educated).
It is worth noting the Amar brothers (no legal slouches) agree with ReaderY that Colorado can enforce a stricter reading of 14.3 than how SCOTUS interprets it (I found the brief to be a wonderful read, but not ultimately persuasive). But as Randall pointed out, Colorado has no law specifying a stricter reading.
There the Court rejected State-imposed Congressional term limits...
For Congress. That doesn't apply to President because the Electoral College gets in the way. States can appoint their electors however they want. They don't need an election at all!
But the Colorado court didn't purport to be applying some Colorado statute disqualifying people who committed insurrection, it purported to be interpreting the 14th amendment, which is a federal law. If Trump is not guilty of insurrection, or not restricted by the 14th amendment for some other reason, then there would be no basis for Colorado court's decision. No doubt, the Colorado legislature could select a slate of Biden electors directly, and eliminate the voters from the procedure entirely, but they haven't.
Not quite right.
The Colorado statute said something along the lines of
1. "candidates must submit a form declaring that they are qualified"
and
2. "a registered voter can file an objection in court to prevent the SoS doing something illegal"
The plaintiff said that pursuant to 1. the SoS had a duty to keep candidates off the ballot if they had wrongly asserted that they qualified and that therefore 2. allowed them to get a court order to that effect.
Thus strictly the question is a state law question - is the SoS compelled by state law to keep candidates off the ballot if they had "wrongly" asserted that they qualify ?
So whether this will fly at SCOTUS I don't know, but to me it looks like a pretty neat trick. Because formally the state court has not attempted to disqualify Trump under federal law, they have disquaified him under state law, where the state law analysis depends on them taking a view on what federal law is.
Doesn't SCOTUS 1) have jurisdiction if the state court's decision depended on their view of federal law, and 2) reverse if the state court took the wrong view?
Not being a lawyer, I couldn’t tell you. But a few comments down Nameless But Highly Opinionated expresses a view not a thousand miles from my own on the question.
They have jurisdiction regardless, as it's the final judgement of the highest court in the state.
They could reverse but I think it's much more likely they will remand.
This is precisely the situation I tried to identify here several weeks ago, but you've explained it so much more clearly, thank you. The effort here by CO is to find Trump “administratively” guilty of insurrection, but not “criminally” guilty. By going through an administrative court (Colorado) to resolve a regulatory question (did a filer lie on a registration form?), the administrative judge (the CO Secretary of State) can conclude on no other basis other than their own opinion that when Trump said he wasn’t an insurrectionist, he was lying — and therefore, “‘guilty” of not filling in a CO form correctly, and therefore ineligible to be placed on the ballot.
This is lawfare at its worst. It’s not only a “neat trick”, it’s a trick that only proves Trump right while simultaneously inflaming opinion and separating people. Literally like a legal eagle’s version of yelling “fire!” in a crowded theater.
You've described Maine more than Colorado, but ok.
I'm curious which part you think is a trick. Should Trump be able to lie on the form? If not, what should happen if he does? Like, what if a naturalized citizen put on the form that they were actually natural born, what should happen?
There are a few errors in Lee's statement and your followup.
That form and Trump's affirmation was mentioned at trial and again in the appeal but it didn't factor into the plaintiff's claims or the judgments. That is, the plaintiffs didn't claim that lying on the form disqualified Trump and therefore he had to be excluded, they said A14S3 disqualified him.
Again, its not about the affirmation, but in addition the original suit was brought to force the SoS to deny ballot access because she was not going to do so on her own initiative. In fact the trial court held that it would be improper for her to do so:
but that the process being followed here, where a plaintiff brings a lawsuit and the court makes the decision, does provide the process that is due. The CO Supreme Court endorsed this finding.
It’s a civil court of record, not an administrative tribunal. And centuries of common law say that a civil court trial, which Mr. Trump received, is an adequate process to determine qualification for an office. As I argue, because presidential electors are appointed in the manner directed by state legislatures, Colorado gets to set its own rules as to who its appointed electors are permitted to vote for.
In Maine, Trump gets an appeal of the Secretary of State’s decision to civil court. If the Maine court gives him full trial before deciding, as I think it should, then he will have gotten all the process due him there as well.
But the underlying question of whether the candidate is "qualified" is a federal question. The Colorado court isn't invoking a state statute defining who is qualified. Maybe the state legislature could declare that it has found Trump to be unqualified and barring him (or, more properly, electors pledged to him) from the ballot, but that is not what has happened. Instead, the Colorado court is interpreting federal law, which they can do, but subject to Supreme Court review.
The Colorsdo Supreme Court found that the Colorado election code bars Trump from being on its popular-vote ballot.
What section of the Colorado election code did the CSC hold barred Trump from being on the primary ballot?
"invoking provisions of Colorado’s Uniform Election Code of 1992, §§ 1-1-101 to 1-13-804, C.R.S. (2023) (the “Election Code”), the Electors requested that the district court prohibit Jena Griswold, in her official capacity as Colorado’s Secretary of State (“the Secretary”), from placing President Trump’s name on the presidential primary ballot."
That's from the decision.
Can you narrow that down to the specific part of the code that bars Trump?
Mr. Chiafolo, a Washington Elector, wanted to vote for Collin Powell in the 2016 Presidential election. Nobody disputes that Collin Powell is constitutionally qualified to be President. But the State of Washington said to Mr. Chiafolo, “No, you can’t do that. You can only vote for the candidate supported by a majority of the voters in this poll we here in Washington take when we appoint our presidential electors.”
Nothing in the constitution says that a candidate forPresident has to get any approval in some state-run pre-election poll to be eligible to be voted for in a Presidential election. This whole preliminary poll business where citizens get involved in the decision about who becomes President was purely made up by the State of Washington. It’s completely extra-constitutional, purely a creature of state law. If US Term Limits applied, Mr. Chiafolo ought to have won his case hands down. He was voting for a constitutionally qualified candidate, Washington had said no way only because it claimed the candidate Mr. Chiafolo wanted to vote for doesn’t meet Washington’s STATE qualifications.
That’s inposing an additional qualification on who is eligible to be voted on in a Presidential election right there.
The same constitutional authority that gives the State of Washington power to prohibit its electors from casting their Presidential elector ballots in the Presidential election for anybody but the candidate who won a pre-election state-sponsored approval poll also gives it the power to forbid them from casting their ballots for a candidate not meeting any other qualification they care to impose - insurrectionist, second termer, anything they want. Of course they can.
In Congressional elections, citizens are the elector, and have a constitutional right to seelct members of Congress. But in Presidential elections, citizens are NOT the electors. Rather, the state legislature is given exclusive power to determine no just who the state’s electors will be and how they will be permitted to be appointed, but who they will be permitted to cast their ballots for. It can’t impose a Whites Only or similar requirement. But it can impose any condition the 14th Amendment permits, whether that’s approval in a pre-election poll, some other condition, or both.
.
You keep saying that as if it is settled law. But it can't be given Footnote 4 from Chiafalo
In fact, Washington said no such thing.
Yes it did. In Washington, only candidates who get the highest number of votes in the state’s approval poll conducted contemporaneously with the elector appointment are qualified to get the support of the state’s presidential electors in the Presidential election. The state requires that electors vote only for such candidates.
No such requirement exists in the federal Constitution. It’s a new requirement imposed by the state.
Let's assume you are right for the sake of argument. You still haven't dealt with Footnote 4 from Chiafolo which states it may be impermissible for states to impose new requirements that conflict with an existing constitutional requirement.
I’ll deal with it right here. It’s dicta to get a unanimous decision. The “may” gives away that the footnote actually decided nothing. Yes, the court has some “living constitution” members who think a popular election has become a constitutional norm and states can’t really control the process, the business of state control has become just lip service. The “may” brings justices favoring that position on board without the court itself actually having to admit.
In other words, “may” necessarily implies “may not.” If the words “may not” had been used in the footnote instead, it would have essentially the same meaning, equally non-committal.
Indeed, the footnote did not settle the issue. But you think it is settled in spite of the footnote. That's crazy.
It is not. That is not what the word "qualified" means in the English language.
I mean it sort of is.
“You need 100,000 signatures to qualify as a candidate for mayor.”
“You need a plurality of the popular vote to qualify as a candidate for president.”
It's a bit forced but not incorrect.
But who cares? Colorado didn’t remove Trump under state law alone, it relied on 14/3. That reliance opens the door for Supreme Court review.
What does choosing electors have to do with candidate access to a primary election ballot?
The other problem here is that Colorado removed him from a ballot NOT choosing presidential electors. In its favor, this is not technically a federal election. Working against it, Colorado is trying to apply a constitutional provision which, by interpreting the federal constitution, denies Trump due process.
I don't see any justification for preventing primary voters from choosing a possibly disqualified person as their nominee. My personal bias here is that I think it belongs to Congress to decide on this kind of disqualification when counting electoral votes, absent legislation under 14A5 providing otherwise.
Because the taxpayers have to pay good money to print those ballots. It would be complete a waste of good taxpayer printing money, not to mention state taxpayer paid ballot supervision and counting costs, for the state to print up a name that the state’s electors will be forbidden to cast their ballots for when it comes time for the actual presidential election in December. Taxpayers have no obligation to pay for it. If a party wants to field an inelegible protest candidate as its party’s front-runner, it can jolly well pay the costs itself and conduct its own damn primary election without asking the state to pay for it.
The only federal election involved in Presidential elections is the one that takes place in December, in each state capital. What happens before that is simply the state selecting its electors and choosing what instructions to gove them, which is a purely state matter and which a state can do, per the Elector Clause, in any damn manner that it damn well pleases to employ. It doesn’t have to have primaries at all. It doesn’t have to involve ordinary citizens at all, in any part of the appointment and instructions process, if it doesn’t want to.
You and ReaderY keep making this same category error. That they can appoint Electors directly rather than holding a popular vote does not mean that if they do choose to hold a popular vote they can do whatever they want.
If the state can either ban cars entirely on grounds they are dangerous machines or let them go unregulated on grounds people ought to have freedom of movement, which it can, it can also choose to compromise the two principles by allowing cars but imposing a speed limit and traffic rules. In general, if two opposing policies are both constitutional, than any compromise between those two policies, giving some weight to the principles behind the one and some weight to the principles behind the other, is also constitutional.
I see this as no different. If the legislature can both pick the electors entirely by itself or give the job entirely to the voters, and it can do both, then any hybrid approach that splits the decision between the two, giving the legislature part of the decision and the voters part, is as constitutional as any legislative compromise. That includes letting voters choose hut only within limits set by the legislature. It’s a compromise along the same lines that a speed limit is a compromise.
Compromise is central to the democratic legislative process and is essential to keeping the peace in a diverse society. It is to be accepted, even encouraged, by courts. It is always to be permitted unless specifically prohibited by some enumerated provision.
Thornton is a red herring. Disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 does not exceed constitutional limitations -- because that provision is part of the text of the Constitution, it has little bearing on whether Congress and the States may add qualifications to those that appear in the Constitution. SCOTUS so opined at footnote 2 of the Thornton opinion. 514 U.S. 779, 787-788 n.2 (1995). See also, Powell v. McCormack, 395 U.S. 486, 520 n.41 (1969).
Colorado could have disqualified Trump from its ballot under its state legislature’s plenary authority to direct the manner of appointing its presidential electors.
Perhaps it could have, but it didn't. SCOTUS can't reinterpret Colorado's law on its behalf.
The Colorado Supreme Court said that it did. Under Moore v. Harper, even when the constitution explicitly gives power to state legislatures, state courts still generally get to interpret state law.
Ah, that answers my question to you from a different thread.
I think Randall may be arguing that the CSC did not base its decision on an interpretation (permissible under Moore v. Harper) of how Colorado state law governs the appointment of electors. Instead, the CSC held because Trump is disqualified under 14.3, it would be wrongful act under Colorado state law to list him as a candidate on the primary ballot.
Right.
They can't, but likely they will.
You think they will in the way Y is suggesting? That is, by saying
The principle of Constitutional Avoidance compels us to find that Colorado state law disqualifies Trump independent of the federal meaning of 14/3.
That seems ludicrous to me in multiple dimensions. Multidimensional ludicrousness.
No, I don't think that they will use constitutional avoidance. I do think that they will revolve the issue quasi ab initio. If that means ruling against the CSC's interpretation of CO law, they will do so.
As a general rule, the Supreme Court defers to a state court's interpretation of a state statute. But in the case of a law enacted by a state legislature applicable not only to elections to state offices, but also to the selection of Presidential electors, the legislature is not acting solely under the authority given it by the people of the State, but by virtue of a direct grant of authority made under Art. II, § 1, cl. 2, of the United States Constitution. Bush v. Palm Beach County Canvassing Board, 531 U.S. 70, 76 (2000).
"There is every reason to believe that disqualification challenges will continue to proliferate if this Court fails to give guidance. [...] [R]equiring Congress to take up the issue in an inherently political process [...] would be a tailor-made moment for chaos and instability. The pressure on Congress from all sides would be enormous, as would be the temptation to resolve the disqualification question not as a matter of the legal or factual merit, but as an exercise of political power."
Very wise words from the authors.
Seems the concern about the disqualification question being a pure exercise of political power is already well past being a concern. It is a reality.
And if this stands, Biden will be dropped from TX ballot. As well as several other states.
Good job "protecting those norms" anti-Trumpers.
Unfortunately, deciding this case only generates a minor problem if they side with Colorado. If the side with Trump the parade of Congressional horribles still looms, as that wouldn't be at all affected by this case.
I think SCOTUS declaring Trump eligible would make a Congressional challenge (on the same ground) pretty difficult.
Bad as it would be, I suspect that Congress actually going through with this would be declared a political question. Counting the electoral votes has simply been assigned to a different government body.
... raise the possibility of public violence before, on, and after November 5, 2024....
I see that it's not just Dr. Ed raising this concern anymore....
And it wouldn't even take "public violence" -- a 10-day national strike would cripple this country...
Nimarata Hussein Haley needs to eat a burger!
A great many voices have suddenly arisen in this country insisting that SCOTUS must further damage its legitimacy with half the country by deciding this issue. We will get strong evidence about whether King Roberts cares more for protecting that legitimacy, or destroying it.
There is a way to avoid damaging its legitimacy while still deciding the issue. It would need to decide the issue in favor of Trump using non-ridiculous reasoning.
Bush v Gore is a good example of ridiculous reasoning. That was the beginning of the end of the legitimacy of the court in the eyes of the left.
Is there any way to write a non-ridiculous opinion in favor of Trump? Personally I'm ok with not-an-officer but a lot of people find that one inherently ridiculous so maybe it's not the best choice. Not-self-executing is probably the best option... although as I've pointed out elsewhere it's not enough by itself. There's still some question as to why and how that would bind the states. But probably those details could be finessed to the satisfaction of the general public. (The other problem is that such a ruling would explicitly leave the issue in the hands of Congress, which would likely get interpreted as an invitation to meddle on Jan 6 2025. Is there a way to fix that? I don't know.)
It would also help for the opinion to be unanimous or close. If it gets to the merits, there's a possibility of an 8-1 opinion against Trump. (Alito will never go for it.) A pro-Trump opinion on the merits is 6-3 at best.
Any anti-Trump opinion will be rejected by the right, no matter how strongly reasoned. They simply don't care about the law, they want power.
So that leaves a non-merits decision that the liberals can get behind that's strongly reasoned and keeps Trump on the ballot as the only legitimacy-preserving option. I'm not sure that exists but it might.
I can't think of a better way for the Court to legitimize its majority's philosophy of Constitutional interpretation than to faithfully skewer its most prominent enabler.
Ha that would be a really funny amicus brief to see. "As we all know, Trump's followers believe deeply in originalism and will rejoice in its faithful application in every case, including this one." I wonder if you could convince their egos.
Can I see your briefs?
I agree with you that
1) SCOTUS will not want to decide if Trump is an insurrectionist
2) The decision should be 9-0 or 8-1
3) the decision must leave Trump must remain on the ballot
Hence the obvious choices are a) not an Officer or b) A14s3 is not self-executing and requires congressional action.
Choice b) would still let Congress nullify the vote after the election, while section a) seems to preclude that.
> There is a way to avoid damaging its legitimacy while still deciding the issue. It would need to decide the issue in favor of Trump using non-ridiculous reasoning.
How incredibly naive. Any ruling which has the effect of allowing Trump on the ballot, on any grounds whatsoever including even political question grounds, will be reported in the media as SCOTUS crowning Trump king for life. I predict firey but mostly peaceful protests in which SCOTUS members sadly lose their lives through absolutely unforeseeable circumstances which are no fault of the protesters.
I'm glad you're afraid of us. That could prove useful when the time comes.
One could not have said it better.
Show me your briefs.
Personally I’m ok with not-an-officer but a lot of people find that one inherently ridiculous so maybe it’s not the best choice. Not-self-executing is probably the best option… although as I’ve pointed out elsewhere it’s not enough by itself.
They could go for both, thereby satisfying those who will buy "officer" and those who will buy "not self executing."
For myself - ignoring all factual questions - the best argument is that Trump never swore the requisite oath, the Presidential oath not being an oath to "support" the constitution. Though I recognise that that is ridiculous in the eyes of those who think of oaths in a purposive rather than textualist sense.
As for "not self executing" I don't see that that would make for any more fun than what would happen anyway. 14A Section 5 only gives Congress a role in legislating implementation details, it doesn't give it any extra role other than that - beyond it's usual counting job.
But I still think there's a reasonable chance - maybe 33% ? - that they will not reverse the Colorado SC. Thomas is the Colorado hidden ace.
"Bush v Gore is a good example of ridiculous reasoning."
So ridiculous that the Court was 7-2 on the merits, and only split 5-4 on the remedy.
The overvotes were easier to count than the undervotes—basically a person checked Gore and then wrote Gore in the write in section.
Regarding your drive-by dismissal of Bush v Gore I can only conclude you didn’t actually read it. (I’m sure you read it, but only with a partisan eye.) If disagreeing with the outcome is a fair way to judge whether a court is legitimate, you’ll have to get in line behind all the Warren Court critics.
I suggest you didn’t read it, because the holding was entirely reasonable, given the deadlines of the Electoral Counting Act. Gore was trying a less obnoxious variation of what Trump tried to do in 2020: obtain (or eliminate) votes from areas judged helpful to winning margin. In Gore’s case, he was hoping that recounting some of the hanging chads, with an evolved standard of interpretation (not disqualifying) now that he knew how many he needed, might gain him the needed votes.
Your contempt for the Supreme Court is entirely in line with Gore’s cynicism: you think they ruled as they did specifically to help Bush win. Only the other guys act disreputably in self-interest.
I’m just happy slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims brought joy to your life …and it only took the sacrifice of 7000 of our best and brightest. Totes worth it!!
SCOTUS's judgement about equal treatment of all counties in Florida was entirely fair. The way they read the Electoral Count Act was really hard to justify, though.
I maintain that Florida had every right to blow past that deadline, either by doing a proper state-wide recount, or by convening the legislature to express an opinion, or both, and that once they sent the overdue results to Congress, it was entirely Congress's personal business what to do with overdue ballots recieved in that manner.
The Electoral Count Act 'merely' contained a (legally non-binding) promise that Congress 'wouldn't' make hard decisions about ballots which were properly certified prior to the deadline. It didn't say anything about judicial mandates to actually meet that deadline.... because there weren't any.
SCOTUS would have looked a lot better if they'd let Florida continue wasting everyone's time with yet another recount, which Al Gore would almost certainly have lost. And they would have looked a lot better if they'd allowed Florida or Congress to continue humiliating themselves, instead of volunteering to take a share of the blame for SCOTUS instead.
I have to say, I expected the Supreme Court to punt by deciding this case on some narrow, non-final procedural ground, and thought that would be a good result, but this article has partly changed my mind. The Court should decide the question of ballot eligibility in Trump's favor and with finality, and further indicate that on the current facts, questions of eligibility for the office can only be decided by Congress, not by federal courts or state officials. The same applies to questions under the Twelfth and Twentieth Amendments, the Electoral Count Act, and the procedural rules of the House and the Senate. That should be the end of litigation, which is not the appropriate forum for resolving questions of this magnitude.
Y81, your last sentence is the only correct part in your comment. Otherwise, it's all advocacy to let government rewrite the Constitution by legislation, court decree, or administrative fiat—all illegitimate methods for that purpose.
Your advocacy resembles a great deal that has cropped up in blog comments, and even in amicus briefs. Authors only vaguely aware, or even unaware, of the proper role for joint popular sovereignty at the apex of American Constitutionalism turn instead to government to do things which improperly constrain the sovereign. Advocacy in that style leads to constitutional paradoxes, which further confuse everyone.
The people's sovereignty is to be exercised first and foremost through the legislature, the people's elected representatives, not through plebescites. That is the difference between republican democracy and mob rule.
y81, here is a trick question for you. See how you do:
In your comment above, you resorted to the passive voice. Re-cast the first sentence in the active voice, to supply a subject as source for the claim, "The people's sovereignty is to be exercised, etc."
How about your revealing how your SP decide matters in real time. You love to invoke the God of Lathrop, but you have now practical answer. And you contention that the Coutrs have no role in not supported in your holy scriptures.
Republican government means that the people must exercise their sovereignty through their elected representatives.
My tenth grade English teacher would have liked that sentence better.
y81, you have been tricked. Perhaps by a grade-school teacher, whether of English or some other subject.
Neither, “republican government,” nor anything else, can compel the jointly sovereign People in any way—least of all by prescribing some method by which the People must exercise their sovereignty. To suppose otherwise is simply to confess you do not understand what sovereignty means.
The sovereign constrains the government. The government never constrains the sovereign. If that somehow did happen, then the government has become sovereign, and the former sovereign has been overthrown.
Apparently you were taught decapitated constitutionalism in school. If so, that puts you in plentiful and similarly bewildered company among the commenters here.
You all might better argue that the originalist principle of joint popular sovereignty underlying American constitutionalism has been superseded. It has been replaced by a practice to treat government as sovereign. There is plenty of historical evidence that did happen, and quite early in the history of the United States. Tocqueville commented on it in Democracy in America.
Commenters here premise many of their comments on that same tacit, novel, and haphazardly imposed premise—that government must be treated as sovereign. Most Americans hew to that view unreflectively. The legal profession dotes on it, and the judiciary adores it, because in both cases it aggrandizes their own power in society.
Problem is, the Constitution is replete with features which do not work right under a premise of sovereign republican government. For instance, to make that work smoothly requires a parliamentary system, with a figurehead as head of state. It makes the notion of rights as vaporous as they are under the British system of government—leaving no distinction between the power most likely to abridge rights, and the power relied upon to enforce them. It converts an American citizen from an empowered commander of government into a supplicant subject of government. It makes the outlandish electoral contraption of presidential politics vestigial at best, and at worst—as we see it now—into an existential threat to the nation.
Folks who are okay with all that really would do better to insist on an end to American constitutionalism, and to call for its replacement with a parliamentary system. The customary practices of that system would work far better than attempts to operate a Constitution generally regarded as outmoded, and now too often honored only in the breach.
As Edward Coke said, the king is under God and the law. And in our system, so are the people. They make the law, and they submit to the law they themselves have made, just as anyone who signs a contract must do.
Whether the Colorado courts applied correct definitions of "insurrection" and what "shall have engaged" therein means are legitimate questions of federal law. Whether or not a preponderance of evidence adduced before the district court indicates that Donald Trump has engaged in insurrection, however, is a classic question of fact. The state courts' factual findings should be entitled to great deference from SCOTUS.
If the legal definitions are erroneous, the appropriate remedy would be remand to the Colorado courts for additional fact finding according to the correct standard. That might not resolve the dispute in time for the March 5 Colorado primary, but there is ample time before the general election for a proper determination of Trump's eligibility to hold office.
I honestly think most people are wrong when they assert that federal courts opinions on questions of federal law are *always* binding on state institutions. SCOTUS precedent is fully circumscribing in lower federal courts, but only monodirectionallly on states.
This is because courts exist not to answer questions per se, but to enforce law through judgments. If they can’t compel something, their opinion isn’t binding. If they can, their orders are binding in the case (even if based on misunderstanding of law or fact) and their opinion is binding on lower courts, at least wherever appeal ultimately lies to the higher court (even if based on…). So SCOTUS is quite powerful, and what it thinks matters. But this is because it’s an ultimate enforcer of federal law, not a magesterium of the meaning of federal law.
Any state is free to act as if the entire U.S. Constitution is reprinted into its own, with a note that it trumps anything else in the state constitution. They only thing the state may not do is transgress federal law, either as it is or as SCOTUS sees it, whichever is stricter.
If Coloradoans think that they cannot allow someone to be their governor without disobeying their fellow Americans, and think SCOTUS is under-enforcing federal law, they are free to enforce it on themselves.
If DJT has a federal right to be on the ballot, SCOTUS is allowed to enforce federal law. If SCOTUS finds that he does, the order and precedent are binding even if wrong. If he does not, and Colorado erroneously thinks he is prohibited from it, Colorado gets to decide.
I nearly agree with this. My main doubt is this :
Colorado SC thinks, and rules, that Trump is disqualified under Section 3, necessarily thereby concluding as a matter of federal law that :
1. Jan 6 involved an “insurrection” 2. Trump “engaged” in it 3. He had previously taken an oath as an “Officer of the United States”… 4…..”to support the constitution” 5. and the Presidency is is an “office under the United States” 6. and that Section 3 is self executing
Suppose SCOTUS says eg “No, as a matter of federal law 5 is clearly wrong. We said in Moore v Harper that the state legislature is [the institution formerly thought to be the legislature PLUS the Governor if he is required to sign off PLUS the state courts interpreting the law in accordance with the state constitution.] BUT we also said that deference is only due to the state courts if their interpretation of state law is not crazy. We remit to the Colorado SC to decide the case under Colorado law, consistent with our opinion of federal law.”
Colorado SC then says “Thanks guys, your view of federal law is interesting, but not binding on us, and we disagree. Our decision stands.”
If the case is then appealed to the USSC in these circumstances i think the USSC might very well say “Thanks right back at ya. But you guys deciding that your view of federal law trumps ours is not part of the legislature’s scheme, and is so egregious that we’re exercising our Moore v Harper override. You’re overruled for not following the legislature’s scheme.”
Any state is free to act as if the entire U.S. Constitution is reprinted into its own…
People keep saying stuff like this as if it matters. But it doesn’t, because neither Colorado nor any other state has actually done that.
Few people doubt that Colorado could kick Trump off the ballot for any (fairly-applied) reason, like “no candidates with spray tans” or “no candidates over 400 lbs” or “no candidates with under 70 IQ” or “no rapists” or “no candidates with pending indictments” or “no draft dodgers.” But it would have to actually pass and enforce such a law.
What Colorado’s law actually says (according to Colorado) is that candidates must be “qualified,” and Trump isn’t because of 14/3. But whether that’s true is a question for SCOTUS. So naturally, Trump can appeal to SCOTUS for a ruling that he’s not in fact disqualified under 14/3, since 14/3 is federal, not a Colorado law.
I think Nameless agrees that if SCOTUS says Trump is disqualified under 14.3, Colorado must abide by that holding. But, Nameless argues if SCOTUS holds Trump is not disqualified under 14.3, Colorado is free to apply a stricter standard than SCOTUS did and nonetheless conclude he is disqualified under 14.3 (and thus Colorado law).
I further think Nameless is basing his argument on what typically happens when federal law is enforced on the states. For example, if SCOTUS holds a federal ban on strictly locally used marijuana is constitutionally permissible, Colorado must abide by that ruling. But, if SCOTUS holds the federal ban is not constitutionally permissible, Colorado can nonetheless ban locally used marijuana.
I don't think that asymmetry works for 14.3 or the other qualifications for president. If Colorado barred candidates who are over 70, I would bet SCOTUS would strike that down. SCOTUS might also strike down a no draft dodgers ban as well (but the case isn't as clear).
ReaderY (and to ReaderY's credit, Akhil Amar) argues the plenary power of the states to choose the method of selecting electors permits stricter state qualifications than the Constitution specifies. This argument is stronger than Nameless's because it relies on more than just asymmetry, but I remain unpersuaded.
I didn’t say Nameless was wrong, just that none of it matters, because neither Colorado nor any other state actually has a state law like that.
If Colorado did, presumably they would have used it in the first place rather than 14/3, knowing that the use of 14/3 makes their opinion vulnerable to Supreme Court review.
I’m not sure about the legitimacy of “stricter” here. Above I proposed the hypothetical that a state prohibited choosing electors to vote for an incumbent president, thereby limiting the presidency to one term, not two. That to me runs afoul of US Term Limits.
If Colorado had a state law/constitutional provision like 14A3, specifically disqualifying for insurrection, that might be the end of it. I assume that’s why Nameless suggested treating the US Constitution as contiguous with its state constitution. Not an unreasonable way to look at things, except for the asymmetry of judicial review as has been commented upon.
The problem here is that Colorado has not explicitly attempted to implement 14A3 in state law. It’s trying to bootstrap general indisputable ballot access criteria (age, residency, citizenship) with disputed conduct which requires adjudication. Even assuming states are competent to pass implementation legislation absent congressional authorization (14A5), Colorado hasn’t done so here. Or rather, perhaps it has, if it has a state crime of insurrection. Ad hoc common law fact finding by courts are insufficient to determine 14A3 disqualification when criminal statutes exist.
I didn't know that Amar argues that, too! Thanks for pointing that out.
Yeah, that's not right. For example, if a state Supreme Court rules that a criminal's conviction must be reversed because the state government violated the state constitution, that's the end of it; SCOTUS has no say in the matter. But if a state Supreme Court rules that a criminal's conviction must be reversed because the state government violated the federal constitution, SCOTUS can and will overturn that decision. The state does not get to decide that "SCOTUS is under enforcing federal law."
This is frankly wrong. And the Michigan v Long line is the clearest example. I'll acknowledge that it could get muddier when the case is between two private parties, but if the state is a party and the state (through its court) decides it loses, that's the end of the matter. SCOTUS can't lock state judges up for contempt because of a breach of duty to the state.
Courts can only do what the sovereign in question can do. So if the United States can't do it, SCOTUS can't. There may be some farfetched case under the guarantee clause that would allow the rest of the country to come in and make a state enforce its law. There are less farfetched scenarios stemming from equal protection. But generally speaking, Americans do not and cannot make one another in the several states enforce their own state law.
Uncle Sam can lock someone up under its own law. He can make a state release someone. Federal courts, as the judicial arm of the United States can do/order either and the orders are binding even if wrong. But Uncle Sam can't make a state lock someone up. So neither can SCOTUS. Michigan v. Long opinions are advisory. They just are.
Essentially, all of the arguments that Trump incited an insurrection boil down to this.
Trump promoted Badthink®™, and because some people rioted on the basis of Badthink®™, that was an insurrection and Trump incited it.
Some may argue this applies to Patrice Cullors, Nikole Hannah-Jones, Charles M. Blow, and many others. After all, they chanted, “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot”. They claimed that the police habitually hunt down and gun down unarmed Black men. And some people rioted on this basis.
It would apply if this principle was enforced in an even-handed manner. But the same side that says that Trump was promoting Badthink®™ also believe that Cullors, Jones, and Blow were promoting Goodthink®™, and those who riioted based on this Goodthink®™ were not ewngaging in insurrection, but fighting White Supremacy®™
It’s feezing!! It’s 5 o’clock somewhere so it’s time for a Booze Cruz in Cancun!! Plus, the only way I can f my ugly wife is by getting shitfaced on cheap tequila!!
'Trump promoted Badthink®™, and because some people rioted on the basis of Badthink®™, that was an insurrection and Trump incited it.'
That is, in fact, how demagogues incite ther followers.
'And some people rioted on this basis.'
Riots generally have some sort of trigger, yes. 'Police violence incites riots' would probably be an accurate statement.
“Time for Booze Cruz in Cancun with my ugly wife!”
Senator Ted Cruz (R-Margaritaville)
The amazing thing is people don't riot more often. Except for when their sports team loses.
Er, I think (at least in the U.S.) it happens when their sports team wins.
A Court decision siding with Trump will constitute one more brick in the foundation on which enlargement of the Supreme Court by better Americans will be based.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit.
So, you want the Supreme Court packed with justices from the Federalist Society?
It already is.
Thank goodness there is a lawful way to address that problem.
Moar!
I don't generally mind justices from the Federalist Society.
However, I expect Trump would probably select his next justices from The Federalist.
Trump should be allowed on the ballot, but only because otherwise we will have pervasive mob violence, perhaps Jan. 6-style attacks on capitols of every state where he’s off. The most prudent thing is to give in the mob, but let’s not flatter ourselves that it’s anything else.
That's the worst reason to do anything in life, and it will be very imprudent in the long run.
Trump should be allowed on the ballot because he did not commit insurrection in the legal sense, and it certainly cannot be proven to a high level of certainty (note that the certainty isn't for the candidate's benefit; it's for our own). Section 3 should be repealed. States should simply stipulate that ballot access is not to be restricted on the basis of Section 3. Colorado's GA could still do such a thing, or at least specify that preponderance was inadequate.
But Trump should lose this case. States may not add qualifications for the presidency as such, but may add qualifications for receiving their share of the electoral vote. They never surrendered the power. The court should decide in favor of CO. They can lay the groundwork for overruling Thornton while they're at it.
Sometimes that's actually a good reason, because the reason you're facing a mob if you proceed is that you're doing something so outrageous that you're causing the social compact to break down.
you’re causing the social compact to break down.
Actually, the people doing the violence you predict would be to blame.
You have just endorsed literal fascism, if you don’t get your way.
Until recently, you used to be worth engaging at least. Now you've stopped reading cases, and just go with vibes and justifying violence.
Enjoy playing in the bottom of the barrel with Dr. Ed and BCD.
They're trying to disqualify Trump on a basis that only people who already hated Trump find at all plausible. If you've only got a case that convinces people who hate the defendant, you've got a shitty case.
But you can't see that because you're one of those people who hate him, and so the case looks iron clad to you.
And on this basis half the country thinks is bullshit, you want to take away half the country's choice of a candidate. And not even as a result of a full criminal trial, on the basis of a civil procedure largely based on the findings of an unprecedentedly rigged Congressional committee.
Yeah, that's breaking the social compact.
You’re so sure you’re right about the law that you’ll countenance violence.
That's all there is to it. Nothing to do with me, nothing to do with Trump.
Just you.
Fuck you.
'And on this basis half the country thinks is bullshit,'
Is it the same half that thinks Trump won? That being the case, who has the actual credibility?
'Yeah, that’s breaking the social compact.'
It's literally maintaining the social compact by allowing the law to take its course instead of, like Trump supporters, resorting to violence or, like Trump, resorting to fraud and conspiracy and demagouery.
Fair.
Whether what Trump did constitutes insurrection is one thing. But the claim that it can't be proven is loony tunes. There is essentially no doubt about what Trump did. The only question is whether that meets the constitutional standard.
They never had the power. Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch agree with you, but the rest of SCOTUS does not.
So if we presume that the CSC decision is valid, then your argument would be to ignore the law, in order to prevent others from deciding to become criminals?
I say enforce the law, and let the would-be criminals remove themselves from society for a period of time to be determined by juries of their non-criminal peers who will not tolerate political violence and intimidation.
Who's afraid of a little mob violence?
'We have to give in to their threats' is terrible reasoning.
You’re afraid of meal team 6? Give me a break.
This is all very interesting and no doubt the final resolution will be something that leaves us all scratching our collective heads, and I guess that's OK. To us normies, the legal mind is barely comprehensible even under the best of circumstances anyway.
In the end, though, if being a loud mouth who constantly complains and whines about being unfairly treated can somehow be transmogrified into "engaging" in insurrection, then there's nowhere left to go.
Trump's actions after the election were much, much more than complaining and whining. Even if he did not engage in insurrection or is otherwise not disqualified under 14.3, he tried to steal the election while he was president. That's a High Crime deserving of impeachment, conviction and disqualification.
He was trying to steal the election in about the same sense Gore was back in 2000 with his "keep counting over and over until I win" strategy.
He wanted to follow the outward form of law, but distort it's path in his favor.
That's not good, but it's not "insurrection", either.
This stupid idea again? Gore worked through the courts. Trump ignored the courts. Big difference.
We don't begrudge Trump his trip through the court system. If he had done like Gore and conceded when he lost, there would be nothing to worry about.
The fact that you don't see a distinction here is notable. Your rational mind is completely gone. You are fully brainwashed now, Brett.
Gore worked through the courts, Trump through Congress, but they were both doing the same thing: Following the superficial form of the process dictated by law, while counting on the people running the process to warp it in their favor by ignoring the substance of the law.
Gore had a cooperative state Supreme court majority that was willing to do that for him, just keep recounting over and over until he won the roll of the dice.
Trump thought he had a cooperative Congressional majority willing to warp the process in his favor for partisan reasons, but it turned out he didn't.
"If he had done like Gore and conceded when he lost,"
Gore lost on election day. He didn't concede until December 13th, when the Supreme court had shut his "keep recounting until I win, then stop" scheme down. That's no more impressive than Trump conceding on January 7th.
Oh my god let's wallow in your stupidity some more.
1. by ignoring the substance of the law.
If you have some beef with the legal opinions of the Florida Supreme Court let's hear them. As everyone knows, it was Bush's partisan friends at SCOTUS who issued the very bizarre for-this-ride-only opinion in the case.
2. Trump thought he had a cooperative Congressional majority willing to warp the process in his favor for partisan reasons...
You think asking a court for recounts of real votes that voters voted is at all similar to asking Congress to disenfranchise millions of people by ignoring their votes? That's insane.
Anyway all you have to do is read the Eastman memos to know that Trump didn't think he was vindicating some legitimate grievance. He knew he lost and was trying to stay in power through any means necessary. The fact that that doesn't matter to you is telling. He doesn't have the Constitution or America in mind, just his own power. America's like Santa's sleigh -- it only works as long as we all believe. Once partisanship gets elevated above the Constitution, it's all over. Which brings us to...
3. by ignoring the substance of the law. (part ii)
Yes, Trump certainly was ignoring the law and the Constitution in his quest for power. (Still is!) He tried to coerce and then kidnap and then murder his VP into "warping" him back into the Presidency!
Let's go back to Gore who, guess what? Was VP at the time. Did he use that position to do any shenanigans? Nope, he dutifully put Bush into office.
Can you imagine if Trump had been VP in 2020? The mind boggles. He would've eaten the electoral vote certificates rather than count them for Biden.
4. “If he had done like Gore and conceded when he lost,” in the courts, was the obvious context there. Which he did. (Actually he conceded while the case was still technically pending.)
5. That’s no more impressive than Trump conceding on January 7th.
a) It is more impressive -- see #2 and b) Trump didn't concede on Jan 7 and still hasn't! Where is your mind?
1 If you have an issue with the SCOTUS ruling, which was 7-2 on the merits, l'd like to hear it.
2. At a reasonable level of abstraction, asking a court to recount under unconstitutionally flexible rules votes that have already had all the recounts due under state law IS analogous to asking Congress to treat it's ministerial roll in counting EC votes as an opportunity to exercise discretion. In that both are asking people to abuse their positions. The big difference is that the Florida supreme court was willing to oblige.
3. Yes, the state supreme court was ignoring the substance of Florida law, which was that any further recounts were at the discretion of the secretary of state, who had exercised that discretion by deciding none were necessary.
4. Gore's scheme to subvert the election was routed through the judiciary, Trump's through Congress, both gave up only after the schemes failed.
Gore did not have a scheme to subvert the election.
Hm allow me to continue to rub your nose in your own bullshit.
If you have an issue with the SCOTUS ruling, which was 7-2 on the merits, l’d like to hear it.
Not that it matters, because I'm not faulting Bush for taking the case to SCOTUS. But since you asked... what 7 justices agreed on was the straightforward proposition that the ongoing recount was in need of some guidelines for how to deal with hanging chads etc. The obvious remedy? Remand to Florida to come up with those guidelines. What did the pro-Bush justices do instead? Sift through Florida law and misinterpret it to decide that Florida's deadlines couldn't be extended. That was a call for Florida to make, not SCOTUS. (Notably, that was after SCOTUS had already unnecessarily paused the recounts... twice. SCOTUS created the time crunch in the first place, then used it as the justification to install Bush.)
The majority opinion has lots of other mysterious hand-waving, but the extreme and unwarranted remedy is of course the central problem. "Blah blah blah then a miracle occurs and Bush wins."
At a reasonable level of abstraction you are analogous to a cucumber sandwich. You're both organic entities... with roughly equivalent levels of intelligence.
The big difference is that the Florida supreme court was willing to oblige.
What exactly is your theory here? Do you think Gore was behaving badly by taking his case to court? Or do you think Trump was doing the right thing by thwarting the peaceful transition of power?
Yes, the state supreme court was ignoring the substance of Florida law, which was that any further recounts were at the discretion of the secretary of state, who had exercised that discretion by deciding none were necessary.
That's what courts do. For example, a Maine court just overrode the Maine SoS's decision to remove Trump from the ballot. What do you think of that? Was the court ignoring the substance of Maine law? Or are you just a mindless results-oriented partisan?
Gore’s scheme to subvert the election was routed through the judiciary, Trump’s through Congress...
I guess this answers my question above... you think Gore was somehow wrong to take his case to court and thereby "subvert the election."
Care to expand on that? Is any candidate that asks for a recount in court engaging in election subversion? Or are you just struggling to keep your partisan fantasy alive as it disintigrates in the face of simple logic?
"The obvious remedy? Remand to Florida to come up with those guidelines."
A position that only had 2 votes on the Court. The majority didn't think there was time to do it at that point, the clock had run out.
"That’s what courts do."
Yes, in theory, the courts derive their power from determining what the law IS, but sometimes they abusively decide to just go ahead and violate that law, instead.
You know, just like in theory Congress was just counting the EC votes on January 6th, but if they'd done as Trump asked, they would have abusively refused to count valid votes, and instead counted invalid ones.
This is what I mean by superficially following the form of law, while violating its substance: You suborn somebody in what is essentially a ministerial role, to instead wrongly exercise discretion in your favor. Whether it's Congress mis-counting votes, or judges ordering unconstitutional remedies.
You already gave yourself away when you accused Gore of trying to subvert the election, same as Trump. You realize that Trump was trying to subvert the election. You want to believe that Gore was just as bad.
But you can't point to a single thing Gore did wrong. Ok, you don’t agree with the Florida Supreme Court, but that has nothing to do with Gore. He didn’t physically intimidate them with a violent mob, buy them all houses, Winnebagos, tuition, and vacations, or anything like that. Like, I don’t agree with SCOTUS but I don’t blame that on Bush.
So again, what, in your view, should an honest candidate who wasn’t trying to subvert the election have done in Gore’s shoes? What did Gore do wrong?
If you can’t answer that then you’re full of shit.
Hang on, Brett. What happened to #5?
Why did you initially imply Trump conceded the 2020 election on a very specific date, January 7, 2021, and then drop the point after Randal called you out on it?
Enquiring minds want to know!
Jewish here.
Trump engaged in fraud and conspiracy and his supporters rioted in an effort to prevent ceritification and he still claims he won, but other than that, a mirror image. Plus Gore never claimed he had tons of evidence of voter fraud, and that the ent9re election was fraudulent. Gore had every right to contest an election that was contestable - with Trump there was simply no contest whatsoever.
You will never change their minds. They got joy from Bush’s 8 years even if they are embarrassed of Bush/Cheney now. My favorite thing was Republicans telling people to invest in XOM when oil ht $130 barrel and inflation hit 5.5% year over year in 2008…and then when Putin invaded Ukraine using Bush’s rationale to invade Iraq and the price of oil spiked those same Republicans believed it was the worst thing ever. These commenters like Bellmore are stupid and engaging with them is a waste of time at a certain point.
These commenters like Bellmore are stupid and engaging with them is a waste of time at a certain point.
I have hope. Here's why.
These ideas, though stupid, aren't really Brett's. They've been inceptioned into him by his handlers in the media and politics.
And at some level, he and his fellows know it. They can't really defend the ideas completely since they aren't their own. That's why when they run out of responses, they resort to accusations of gaslighting and the like.
Let's unpack that. If these stupid ideas were honestly held, they'd at least be able to minimally defend them by explaining why... and would be happy to have them challenged. An idea of your own is worth defending, not only to convince others but to put it to the test. If there are ways it's wrong, you want to know, so you can refine the idea and make it better.
Instead, Brett and ilk experience these debates as a psychological attack, because the ideas they advocate are really just articles of faith that they cling to as part of their personal identities. Telling Brett he's wrong is tantamount to telling him he's going to hell or something like that. He's staked his whole psyche and worldview on his faith in these tropes.
But my hope is that eventually these guys will notice how easily manipulated they are. Hell, they get accidentally manipulated by the likes of Sarcastr0 practically every day. Well, the way not to feel gaslit by political debates is to think for yourself.
I still believe that even the likes of Brett could tire of being manipulated by everyone -- right-wing demagogues most of all -- and throw off his psychological shackles to become a free thinker once more.
I’ve tried for years and they never change. They still hate Senator Jim Webb even though deep down they realize invading Iraq was a huge mistake.
Nobody hates Jim Webb, and nobody except you is still thinking about the invasion of Iraq.
Gore had a rational basis to believe he won. Trump had bullshit.
Trump's call to Raffensperger was not part of a legal process. Nor was having the DOJ falsely declare there was fraud. Nor was calling the mob to DC.
You're just giving Gore's claims to believe he won more credence than Trump's. Gore was pursuing a strategy to 'win' even if he'd genuinely lost; Otherwise he would have asked for a full recount during the challenge period, not just a recount of 4 counties he was most likely to pick up votes in.
Any non-partisan with a tenth of a brain would give Gore’s claim much more credence. Unfortunately, 2/3 of GOP voters have swallowed trump’s Kool-Aid.
Gore was stupid to follow the four counties strategy. When you are behind, recount everything.
And I forgot that pressuring Pence to not count the votes was another thing Trump did that was not part of a legal process (and look how that compares to what actual VP Gore did).
No, Gore wasn't being stupid. He was being crafty.
When you do a manual recount, it usually does NOT change the percentages. It just takes some of the ballots that the machines couldn't read, and finds votes among them. But in the exact same percentage as before.
That's why full recounts hardly ever change election outcomes.
That's why Gore didn't ask for a full recount. He picked 4 large counties where he'd done particularly well, instead. His hope was that while both he and Bush would gain votes in a recount of those counties, even without the percentage changing he'd gain more, because he got more originally.
And if he gained enough more, he'd reverse the outcome, even if a full recount would have shown him to be the loser!
That's why he had to wait until near the end of the challenge period, instead of calling for the recount right away: He had to deny Bush time to do the same thing in the rest of the state, and defeat his trick.
This was indeed a strategy to win even if he was the actual loser, and people were discussing it at the time.
As it happens, he wasn't gaining enough extra votes this way, so it didn't work, even with Palm Beach changing their counting standards as they went along.
Up to this point, though he was being tricky, he was being tricky entirely within the law.
Where he departed from the letter of the law was after the challenge period ended. Under Florida law, any recount after the challenge period had to be at the discretion of the Secretary of State, and the SoS said no. A lower court judge upheld this decision, the state supreme court overturned it, and began ordering a series of recounts, first locally, then state wide.
And they might even have gotten away with that, (Though the media coalition analysis of ballots afterwards said it probably wouldn't have done Gore any good.) if the state scotus hadn't refused to set a counting standard, resulting in the EPC violation that the Court found by a 7-2 vote.
But, of course, that EPC violation was needed by Gore; He wasn't going to win a recount conducted to any fixed standard, he needed standards being different in different places and times to have a real chance of distorting the result enough to look like he'd won.
So, yes, at that point Gore was doing what Trump did: A shallow appearance of following the forms of law, (He had a court in his corner to bless any violations of state law.) but gutting the substance to warp the result in his favor.
No, Gore wasn’t being stupid. He was being crafty.
Naturally.
While Trump was and is innocent.
Listen to yourself. Paragraphs and paragraphs to try and show a lawsuit is the same as an insurrection.
Though I suppose once you decide political violence is on the table, that kind of elementary perspective is already beyond you.
'So, yes, at that point Gore was doing what Trump did: A shallow appearance of following the forms of law,'
Following the form of law/breaking the law - trivial distinction.
Gore was pursuing a strategy to win if it turned out he'd actually gotten more votes. Trump was pusruing a strategy to win even though he had gotten less votes.
If you are equating a civil lawsuit challenging Florida voting procedures in the courts with a mob invading the halls of Congress to stop them from voting, then may I remind you that Hitler also used a mob (in addition to the GeStaPo) to keep opposition deputies out of the Reichstag during the Enabling Act vote?
You're the one here who doesn't see the similarities. So I definitely don't trust you to distinguish the differences. Probably because you think "conceding" has some kind of legal status. It doesn't. It's a norm, like the House majority accepting the nominations of the minority leader for committee assignments.
People like you are confused about when the norms started getting trashed. Harry Reid didn't have to abolish the judicial filibuster. Miguel Estrada didn't deserve the stealth filibuster of his judicial nomination. Yet here we are, arguing about norms.
In your heart you know he's nuts. Hey hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today? We've come a long way baby!
For one thing, you’re retarded.
I also like how you’ve reduced Jan 6 to a norm. Like, Reid got rid of the norm of the filibuster and Trump got rid of the norm of peaceful transitions of power. Same diff! Lol, even more retarded.
I don't think calling him retarded is very helpful.
But the point about Trump never conceding is not so much a legal one, but it is simply evidence of Trump's psychological unsuitability for the office of President. He never conceded because he refuses to explicitly admit (to himself) that he lost the election.
(And it's one that I'm regularly astonished to see that some of his supporters are still unaware of.)
The reason I have to call these people retards even though it pains me is that I know what’s going on.
The whole idea behind MAGA started with Steve Bannon. He recognized that uneducated guys are morons who are easily manipulated. He said this all himself… maybe not in so many words, but it’s not a secret. Fox News had already figured the same thing out about old people. Trump was intrigued, so they set up MAGA by feeding their target rubes with two things: zero-sum grievance-laden conspiracy theories and superficial whataboutism. It’s a pretty simple formula: grievances supply the political motivation and whataboutism supplies the defensive moat. They work well together because the conspiracy theories and the zero-sum nature of the grievances both work to paint the other side as fundamentally evil, so the whataboutism has very fertile ground. “No matter how bad it seems like we are, the other side is worse.” Again you don’t have to take my word for it, this is all from Bannon. And if you look at Trump campaign speeches, they 100% follow this formula.
The fact that none of the propaganda they’re using to lather up their followers is actually true ends up being a plus. Rather than needing to do the traditional thing in politics of developing and explaining rational policies — which can be difficult for voters to understand — they can just use the emotional weight of the grievance conspiracies to drive people, no thinking required. But there is still a problem for the MAGA tacticians: how to defend against the actual truth. Another grievance conspiracy theory to the rescue! “Conservative voices are being silenced!” The implication is that the bullshit propaganda they’ve been feeding their minions should be afforded equal weight in the public discourse to the rational political debates everyone else is having.
This does two things. First it devalues the truth: if everyone is entitled to their own beliefs — flat-earthism, birtherism, alternative facts, whatever — and everyone’s beliefs are of equal worth, what role is there for reason or truth? Second, it moves the Overton window to actually normalize MAGA’s BS. “Reasonable people can disagree,” right?
Wrong. Debating these people as if they’re reasonable is exactly what the MAGA brain trust wants. They know their side can’t win a rational debate, but that’s not the goal. All they need is for their ideas to be treated as worthy of rational debate in order to keep their members psychologically captured. “Truth can’t be known, our ideas are as good as theirs, the fact that we’re debating each other as equals is proof, and they’re all evil.” It’s a really impressive example of mass gaslighting actually.
But anyway, I love a good, respectful debate based on a shared sense of reason and the search for truth. But these aren’t reasonable people with rational ideas. They’re brainwashed people spewing secondhand propaganda. It’s imperative not to pretend like it’s normal and thereby normalize it, especially just to be polite. The time for courtesy is over.
So that’s why I’m always careful to make clear that they’re being retarded and their ideas aren’t worthy of serious consideration.
I respect your decision, but I don't agree with it. Thanks for responding.
Trump didn’t use Congress, and even his lawyer admitted he was using illegal means.
Plus the violence.
Everyone knows Gore had the support at the time to keep going but didn’t.
Trump and Gore are nothing alike.
“Stop the ste”
The last words of Ashtray Babbitt that will inspire a new generation of patriots to take back their country. Hey, I wonder what “ste” means?? 😉
Steal
“[a.] Imagine Mr. Trump wins an electoral-vote majority, and Members of Congress assert Section 3 disqualification”
Gun safes are opened across the country, and the fight is on.
But not going to happen, because the Democrats are unlikely to have both Houses of Congress, and may well have neither. Likely Republicans pick up 3-5 Senate seats, and have a deep chance at holding the House. It’s much harder to steal House seats in mass, because the cheating is primarily in big cities.
“[b.] Imagine Mr. Trump wins an electoral-vote majority and Congress declares him disqualified”
Same problem, except that Dems likely won’t have a majority in probably either house.
“[c.] Imagine no candidate wins an electoral-vote majority and the House declares Mr. Trump disqualified“
Or, the Republicans could disqualify Biden for giving comfort to te enemy, namely the PRC, we are still officially at war with them (the Armistice in 1953 was definitely not a peace treaty), and Biden accepted bribes from them, presumably for services rendered. A lot of this comes from Hunter’s laptop, which has been better vetted than whatever the Dems threw at Trump. The House is in the midst of hearings right now on this, and, I believe that they managed to get Hunter to testify last week. They have also heard from his business parters, who confirmed that foreign nationals communicated with Biden through his son, as partial payment for their bribes. So don’t expect that this will go just the one way.
I do agree though that the chaos from trying to disqualify one or both candidates through 14A § 3 will probably drive the Supreme Court to reverse, or possibly remand, the CO case. The brief by a number of Republican Senators and Representatives also posits a list of (IMHO more credible) horribles. One is that some states disqualify one candidate, and other states disqualify the other one.
Add to this that CJ Roberts puts a priority on protecting the reputation and soft power of his Judicial Branch. I just don’t see them affirming the blatant LawFare being attempted here, to prevent a fair election. If they can prevent the chaos by reversing the CO case, I think that they will. The other thing that I think might drive it is that if they affirm the CO decision they will have to first affirm that Trump and probably more than the 73 million who voted for him last time, were not disenfranchised by inadequate Due Process. They almost assuredly were. They didn’t bother to look at these other interests, so could give them a 5 day kangaroo court hearing, and call it Due Process. But the Supreme Court can’t just tell the CO SC that they need more Due Process, and remand, because it’s likely that if a 5 day hearing wasn’t sufficient, they will just come back after a 7 day kangaroo court hearing. So the US SC would have to d some messy line drawing.
My prediction right now is reversal, and either dismissal or remand, utilizing one or both of the Not An Officer theory and that § 3 is not self executing combined with Supremacy and Political Question theories (see the Ted Cruze brief which fleshes this out). 14A § 5 gives Congress the power to write laws to enforce the 14A, and § 3 has a provision for Congress removing its disabilities. The Republicans in Congress take the view that states are prevented from usurping their power in this area.
We shall see.