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Employers' Talking "About Race—Any Race—With a Constant Drumbeat of Essentialist, Deterministic, and Negative Language" Risks Racial Harassment Liability
So a federal district court just held.
An excerpt from De Piero v. Penn. State Univ., decided Thursday by Judge Wendy Beetlestone (E.D. Pa.) (there are also other legal theories that the court rejects, which you can see discussed in the full opinion):
{De Piero{, a white man,} [argues] that his department's discussions of "antiracism," "white supremacy," "white privilege," and other concepts relating to discussions of race on campus, all of which "repeatedly singl[ed] out and demean[ed] faculty members on the basis of race," subjected him to a hostile work environment.} De Piero … began working at Penn State Abington as a non-tenure-track Assistant Teaching Professor of English and Composition in 2018. Penn State Abington holds itself out as "the most diverse campus within" the Penn State system "and the only majority minority campus." …
Title VII (along with the PHRA and Section 1981) renders employers liable for harassment that is "sufficiently severe or pervasive to alter the conditions of [the plaintiff's] employment and create an abusive working environment." … Whether a series of alleged incidents constitutes pervasive harassment is a circumstance-specific question: the "frequency of the discriminatory conduct; its severity; whether it is physically threatening or humiliating, or a mere offensive utterance; and whether it unreasonably interferes with an employees work performance" are all relevant to whether the discrimination the employee suffered was sufficiently "severe" or "pervasive." …
[De Piero alleges that he] was obligated to attend conferences or trainings that discussed racial issues in essentialist and deterministic terms—ascribing negative traits to white people or white teachers without exception and as flowing inevitably from their race—in June 2020, October 2020, November 2020, January 2021, and October 2021. His Amended Complaint contains at least some discussion of the content of each such meeting [bullets added -EV]:
- in June 2020, in the aftermath of the murder of George Floyd, "Wong [Assistant Vice Provost for Educational Equity] expressed her intention to cause Penn State's white faculty to 'feel the pain' that [he] endured;"
- in a "breathing exercise," Wong told "White and non-Black people of color to hold [their breath] just a little longer—to feel the pain;" that October, Naydan, [Chair of the English Department and] De Piero's supervisor, co-led a professional development meeting on multiculturalism that included "supposed examples of 'racist' comments" where every hypothetical perpetrator was white;
- the following month included an event called "Arts and Humanities as Activism," where De Piero alleges the facilitator "condemn[ed] white people for no other reason than they spoke or were simply present while being 'white,'" including by "condemn[ing] … 'white elites' and 'white self-interest;'"
- Naydan endorsed that training's message repeatedly;
- in January 2021, at an "antiracism pedagogy" meeting, Naydan spoke of race conscious grading;
- and, finally, in October of that year, Naydan and her co-facilitator led another training, which included an excerpt that "accused white faculty" of "unwittingly reproduc[ing] racist discourses and practices in our classroom." It was, according to Naydan's co-facilitator, "about a group."
De Piero also documents emails and interpersonal interactions from this time period, including
- a comment by a colleague "that resistance to wearing masks 'is … more likely to be led by white males,'"
- an email from Smith "instructing Penn State's white employees to 'feel terrible,'"
- messages from Naydan including one encouraging him to "assure that all students see that white supremacy manifests itself in language and in writing pedagogy," and
- multiple emails urging him to watch a video titled "White Teachers Are a Problem."
And when De Piero went to Borges [Associate Director of Penn State's Affirmative Action Office] to air his concerns, she told him that "[t]here is a problem with the white race." De Piero simply did not "get it," so, according to Borges, he should continue to attend more workshops and trainings until the message sunk in.
Taken together, these allegations plausibly amount to "pervasive" harassment that, at least on a motion to dismiss, passes muster. De Piero's case looks less like Young or other similar cases where the plaintiff failed to plead the specificity and pervasiveness necessary to state a hostile work environment claim, and is closer to the plausible claim analyzed in Diemert v. City of Seattle, 2023 WL 5530009, at *1-4 (W.D. Wash. Aug. 28, 2023), in which a white plaintiff alleged that he had to attend anti-racism trainings that segregated employees based on race and declared "that all white people have white privilege and are racist" and that "white people are like the devil" and "racism is in white people's DNA." True, some of the allegations in Diemert, including one instance where a defendant "chest bumped" the plaintiff and "got in his face," go beyond what De Piero says happened here, but in both cases, "it is clear on the face of [the] complaint that, beyond any problems [the plaintiff] may have had with [the trainings], he alleges his co-workers and supervisors verbally … assaulted him because of his race. And that he was the target of potentially offensive comments and other abusive actions, also because of his race." "Whether there is any merit to his claims is an inquiry for another day, but for now, he has stated a plausible claim for a hostile-work environment based on race …."
To be clear, discussing in an educational environment the influence of racism on our society does not necessarily violate federal law. In allowing De Piero's hostile work environment claim to proceed, the Court does not contemplate that it is, or should be, the norm to maintain a workplace dogmatically committed to race-blindness at all costs. To do so would "blink [at] both history and reality in ways too numerous to count." Training on concepts such as "white privilege," "white fragility," implicit bias, or critical race theory can contribute positively to nuanced, important conversations about how to form a healthy and inclusive working environment. Indeed, this is particularly so in an educational institution. And placing an added emphasis on these issues in the aftermath of very real instances of racialized violence like the murder of George Floyd does not violate Title VII, Section 1981, or the PHRA. But the way these conversations are carried out in the workplace matters: When employers talk about race—any race—with a constant drumbeat of essentialist, deterministic, and negative language, they risk liability under federal law….
The court also notes,
Penn State points to a few out-of-circuit district court cases that reject hostile work environment claims brought by white plaintiffs relating to anti-racism trainings like the ones De Piero attended. Young v. Colo. Dep't of Corr. (D. Colo. 2023); Shannon v. Cherry Creek Sch. Dist. (D. Colo. 2022); Vitt v. City of Cincinnati (S.D. Ohio 2002), aff'd (6th Cir. 2004). Quite apart from the fact that none of these cases has precedential value, none is persuasive. Two of these cases were resolved after discovery on motions for summary judgment, so their analysis is not particularly relevant to resolving a case at this early stage in litigation.
And the third is distinguishable. In Young, the plaintiff alleged that facilitators of a series of mandatory trainings "made sweeping negative generalizations regarding individuals who are white" and encouraged him to review additional reading materials that "contain[ed] outright support for forms of invidious race discrimination masquerading as 'anti-racist' literature." The district court dismissed the hostile work environment claim because the plaintiff had failed to "actually allege any specific facts describing the nature, contents, or frequency of the mandatory training" or identify which additional reading materials he reviewed. De Piero's allegations are more specific….
I'm generally pretty skeptical of imposing "hostile work environment harassment" liability on employers based on their or their employees' speech to the workplace at large (as opposed to speech targeted to a particular employee); see here for more. But while some judges have shared these First Amendment concerns, other judges (and other government actors) seem to be fine with such speech restrictions. And the court in this case is certainly correct that hostile environment harassment claims may be brought by whites as much as by non-whites.
Samantha K. Harris (Allen Harris PLLC) represents plaintiff.
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"and the only majority minority campus." …
Do they offer a degree in oxymorons?
The term "majority minority" appears in the Voting Rights Law.
Does that somehow prevent it from being an oxymoron?
It is moronic but not an oxymoron.
Please cite your technical definition of "oxymoron".
The issue is which definition of "minority" one is using. It can mean a group of people historically discriminated against, rather than less than half the number of the total group.
Fans of Dr. Ed will not be surprised to learn that it doesn't. (Also, that it's called the Voting Rights Act, not the Voting Rights Law, but given that the law has only existed for 6 decades, it's hard to get that right.)
It’s not an oxymoron except by equivocation.
It's essential to aggressively make lefties play by their own rules.
Trump's doing that in Maine.
Appears that Sec of State Bellows had personal relationships with the two men who asked her to remove Trump's name from the ballot.
https://www.themainewire.com/2024/01/trump-asks-maine-court-to-consider-evidence-of-shenna-bellows-personal-relationships-with-strimling-saviello/#comment-80258
Which "lefty rule" is that making Bellows live by?
iT'S ABOUT TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now apply this principle to the manbashing seminars, which are actually worse than this [ ].
And yes, EV, there is a reason why I consider the word [ ] descriptive, not offensive, and if you'd lived through the [ ] I have, you wouldn't either.
Wouldn’t what?
Object to calling [ ]s [ ]s....
WTF is Ed talking about now?
@Noscitur a sociis
"consider the word [ ] descriptive, not offensive, "
Didn't you parse and diagram sentence structures in jr. high?? Oh, maybe you're under 50 and grammar and syntax were as extinct as cursive writing.
In which case I'm jealous/not jealous.
I’m actually certified to teach High School English.
NOT the word in question, but say I called someone a banana (the least offensive word I can think of), I could argue that the word was descriptive of the person, and not a per se offensive insult toward the person.
I used a word that EV found offensive, and unlike RAV, I agreed not to use it anymore — and won’t.
No, I took Calc 2 in high school, so I glossed over diagraming sentences
Diagramming sentences is just about the most deceptive and dishonest lesson ever inflicted upon children.
soon-to-be-former
law prof tosses more red meat
to his right-wing rubes
Come on, Arthur.
Either make a substantive comment or don't.
I agree that EV tends to concentrate much more on outrageous conduct on the left than on the right, but that doesn't change the nature of the conduct.
Kirkland is a one trick pony.
If he's got one, I must've missed it.
Life, through a lens of resentment, isn't a trick. It's an affliction.
And it's "Whataboutism". Not even a smart trick.
Sadly, the Rev isn't here to actually think about things.
Is he here to get unmuted or something? I mean, when people start comparing the content of your posts to those of MovieBob, MOST people on the interweb.com do some kind of internal bias check.
Should the Rev return to volac?
I mistakenly placed that poem here -- I thought I was associating it with a transgender post.
This blog's -- one contributor in particular -- incessant focus on transgender-lesbian-gay-drag queen issues is a substantive point.
These guys are law professors. Mostly at strong schools (which likely regret hiring them, consequently to having their names and reputations associated with this blog).
Partisanship is one thing, and not something that deserves scorn; about that, bernard11, you are correct. Bigotry -- trying to make life harder for people who already confront plenty of difficulty in our society -- is a far different issue.
These guys can't stop whining about how conservatives are treated in modern America and on strong, mainstream campuses in particular. Yet this blog never misses a chance -- indeed, it goes out of its way to find opportunities -- to write about transgender rest rooms, transgender teachers, transgender artificial intelligence, transgender sorority drama, transgender procedures, transgender "pedos," transgender pronouns, transgender pseudonymity, transgender athletics, transgender curricula, transgender names, transgender youth, and transgender anything and everything else. This has reached a point at which Muslims and blacks are probably wondering why Prof. Volokh and other clingers don't care about them anymore.
(Don't worry -- he does.)
Most of the bloggers here are - indeed - widely respected legal scholars, even by many other scholars/academics who may disagree with their side of the aisle.
Efforts to diminish that are pathetic. Instead, perhaps try actually arguing against the *substance* of their points...if you can.
EV often focuses on libertarian concerns that the left ignores (which currently tend to involve the authoritarian nature of identity politics...), as a counterweight to the ideologues who currently dominate...at least until the pendulum centers a bit, that is.
(The *commenters* around here are another matter...some of them are even as bigoted as you, albeit in the other direction. Fortunately, better Americans reject *both* forms of bigotry.)
I actually fear the consequences of the pendulum centering -- the left has chopped down so many trees in pursuit of the Devil that they're going to be in serious trouble when the Devil turns on them...
You seem unfamiliar with modern America and mainstream academia.
Bigots are no longer respected. Clingers are tolerated but not esteemed (superstition and intolerance are no longer fashionable among educated, modern, accomplished Americas).
Have you asked UCLA's dean about your 'these guys are highly respected' opinion? The Georgetown or Northwestern law faculties?
Kirkland, you ever driven a truck? One that you needed a CDL to drive?
I have -- and the White guys driving trucks are SCARY....
Scary is the only adjective I can think of, but it is nowhere strong enough. They've got 40-50 years of resentment built up in them, divorce and all the rest, and it wouldn't take much for real problems to happen.
The nice thing about having a "Commercial Drinking License" (not what it stands for, but what I did convince one bouncer one night) is that you are like a waitress or secretary -- you can start working anywhere on short notice if you need/want to. So I've driven trucks in a variety of places in 3 states and this White male rage was consistent.
Think about this on a snowy night when a truck that can legally weigh 55 tons (and likely weighs 20-30 tons *more*) is coming the other way towards you...
White male rage was consistent.
Sorry you're not getting enough government handouts. Elon Musk will replace you soon anyway. In your next life, maybe try learning a real skill.
"real skills" will be replaced by AI faster than truck driving.
Sadly, bigotry is one of the many words that, through misuse, overuse and tactical redefinition, has a very limited meaning any more.
How many racial slurs must a white, male, conservative blog publish before you are open to the prospect that the proprietor and his carefully cultivated collection of commenters might be bigots?
One a year?
One a month?
One a week?
One a day?
Caution: Prof. Volokh hopes you will tread quite carefully when addressing this issue.
I knew you'd have something to say about your former employer.
Your white fragility is showing. How’s it feel to have your precious culture war rolled back?
Carry on…
You figure conservatives are becoming competitive in the culture war, clinger?
The trajectory of the culture war is steady and predictable.
Conservatives are being painted into increasingly small, desolate corners of America (and of academia).
Conservatism may seem to be holding its own for observers located in the likes of Idaho, Alabama, West Virginia, and Oklahoma. But the idea that old-timey religion, gay-bashing, anti-abortion absolutism, antisemitism, xenophobia, creationism, white nationalism, Confederacy-coddling racism, school prayer, Islamophobia, white supremacy, transphobia, and the like are positioned for a comeback in mainstream America is silly.
So open wider, clingers. And hope the culture war's winners continue to be lenient and gracious toward the losers.
Bigoted conservatives lost their culture war (and rightly so).
Bigoted progressives will lose theirs, too (in due time).
Live-and-let-live moderates will prevail. Pluralism or bust!
Kirkland, are you paying attention to what's happening to higher education right now? I wouldn't say that the right has lost the culture war...
The culture war is a 63-17 game in the fourth quarter, four minutes or so left. If you want to get irrationally exuberant because clingers kick a field goal or two, have at it.
It's not quite over but has been settled.
In a game which itself will soon be cancelled...
Cancelled?
You mean UCLA 1, Clingers 0?
Does this help the recently filed lawsuit against Harvard alleging pervasive hostility towards Jews? As persuasive precedent, not binding precedent.
I read the Harvard suit more as an OCR complaint than a lawsuit because that's my field and the argument I see them making is one of outright racial discrimination. That Harvard treated these students differently than similarly situated students and that the only explanation for that is their race. It thus denied them the equal opportunity to benefit from a Harvard education because of their race.
With the dual disclaimer that I am not an attorney *and* that I am using OCR precedent here, not legal, what I see as the difference between Harvard and here is that he is directly claiming hostile environment and they aren't -- they are claiming discrimination in not addressing a hostile environment when Harvard has addressed it for students of other races...
That last part is what their suit is based on -- ignoring the stuff which constitute actual crimes (i.e. violation of the Criminal Code of the Commowealth) they document that Harvard has bent over backwards when students of other races have had their feelings hurt, and failing to do the same for students of this race is discrimination. Misfeasance.
By contrast here, Penn State's agents are directly discriminating. Malfeasance.
I think...
Thank you.
Pretty good for a non-lawyer. I've told women at parties that I was a lawyer and I don't think I could have done better.
I'll leave this to the lawyers, but where does the Meritor Savings Bank case come in here?
That was sex discrimination, I believe she'd slept with her boss (BAD idea, both sides) and then I believe fired for poor job performance. Memory is that she claimed that said boss, whom she had slept with (but didn't want to anymore) made it impossible for her to meet objective job performance standards because of the hostile environment he created.
I believe that this is the case that led to the standard of what "the average woman" would find hostile, which (in academia) then led to the standard of what "the average lesbian" would find hostile and a lot more -- and a bunch of stuff stomped on that.
BUT, to what extent does (or doesn't) the Meritor decision establish the standard of (a) hostile environment relative to (b) what an average Jewish student or average White Male employee would perceive?
This part assumes a lot of facts not in evidence:
… unless the training is pointing out that those ideas are largely being pushed by race-essentialist hucksters. The most nearly scientific of those is “implicit bias”, which is defined differently by different researchers and usually measured with a fundamentally invalid tool. See, for example, https://www.thecut.com/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html, and note that the one example of valid-seeming IAT research it mentions (by Matthew Nock’s group) has more recently been panned as underpowered and probably reflecting research bias more than reliable facts: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8167921/
You're looking at this the wrong way -- its all in how one defines "a healthy and inclusive working environment."
A "healthy and inclusive working environment" is one where the n*****s are kept in their place. We're back to where we were a century ago, it's just a different group of people who are the n*****s now.
George Wallace has been replaced by Claudine Gay -- same song, different person singing it....
Just replace "n*****s" with "conservatives," and the antiracist position makes good ol' sense.
It's telling that you don't know the difference between a race and an ideology. No wonder racism (and bigotry in general) comes so easily to conservatives.
Indeed. The party of slavery, the party of the KKK, the party of racial segregation, the party of separate but equal, the party of Japanese internment, the party of white fragility, the party of anti-racism, the party of intersectionality has not changed its spots. Its current leader (Biden) bragged that his Supreme Court nomination and his VP pick were racially motivated.
Lets not get into Sec Def Austin other than to note that he can be missing for four days while American vessels are under attack and the President and the news media could apparently care less.
Maybe we were better off with Austin missing....
"Training on concepts such as “white privilege,” “white fragility,” implicit bias, or critical race theory can contribute positively to nuanced, important conversations about how to form a healthy and inclusive working environment."
--
Would training on concepts such as “black privilege,” “black fragility,” implicit bias against Whites and Asians, or critical race theory from a white person's point of view contribute positively to nuanced, important conversations about how to form a healthy and inclusive working environment?
Or, would those discussions and training modules be considered racist?
People have gotten into trouble for a WHOLE lot less than that...
For example: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/558c16e9e4b00e687752a5c9/t/55b935e0e4b0e1fa9d2ef861/1438201312908/PHX+Send+out+the+clowns+10-27-04.pdf
The latter. And rightly so. The distinction rests on history, not on rationalism.
Now try that with training on "jewish privilege" and "jewish fragility" and see where it gets you.
I am mean given Harvard and the Ivy Leagues, maybe it'll get you pretty far.
We should engage in race/gender swapping on any race/sex discrimination case and see if it would be OK then.
Race/gender/historical-predicate swapping is fine. Leave out the latter, and all you have is rationalistic racist malice. The only reason the discussion exists at all is because of differences in historical predicates, and their continuing effects among groups. To insist on ignoring that is simply to insist that persecution of black people ought to continue today.
Training on concepts such as “white privilege,” “white fragility,”
... are entirely fictional. There is no advantage to being white in America. In theory it's neutral now, but as recently as last year universities explicitly discriminated against whites. Some are likely still doing so, although that's up to future litigation to decide. If you want to know whether whites or blacks are more fragile, try the following experiment. Have a black guy wear whitening makeup walk up to a bunch of white guys and say, "What's up crackers?" Have a white guy in blackface walk up to a group of black guys and say, "What's up niggers?" Who do you think is going to be more upset? The black grievance well is bottomless, their interest groups are always finding something to complain about.
There is no advantage to being white in America
Wrong.
https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 - 20 years old, now, but not obviously out of date.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6612926/
Plenty of other papers.
It's people like you who contribute to the strength of extremists on the other side. The more you deny what we know to be true about race, you more you empower those who are just as extreme but who are advancing the opposite agenda.
That stuff is all weak tea and shows a weak impact at best. So for the first one, just asking somebody if they've been discriminated against isn't really reliable. A higher response rate could just reflect somebody from a culture that blames "discrimination" for everything. On the latter, discounting degrees from African American candidates was until recently rational (unless they attended a California or Texas or otherwise non-racist one)-- they explicitly had to accomplish much less to go to a much better school. As racist college admissions finally, hopefully, dies that will cease be rational and I bet you see that disparity disappear too.
No, discounting black achievement because affirmative action is a thing is not rational.
You're making individual judgements based on a broad policy that you should know does not apply to all of them.
That's racist.
There are plenty of other papers in recent years that support my position, but VC only allows two links per post. And I strongly doubt you would accept any evidence at all.
I'd be rich if I were Black.
No, you wouldn't. Changing your skin color would't make you any less the dumbass you currently are. It might fix your racism though.
Black Ed would be a Hotep.
Chicken or egg? Ever occur to you that my life experiences made me this way?
Another conservative with no personal responsibility.
Maybe just choose to be less of a racist asshole?
Again, how much of your money do you put where your mouth is? Give us a percentage?
I don't get this attempt at a gotcha. So... you're choosing to be a racist asshole because it's cheaper?
No, you are being the racist asshole because you defend a holier than thou whiner.
By the way what specifically have you done (actions not words) to make the lives of the underprivileged better?
Be honest. Tell us.
There is no zero-sum for good works.
Essentially everything I don't do for myself, Don Nico, I try to help this who have been harmed or are underprivileged because of the U.S.'s racist past (supporting Ukraine, primarily via initiatives of my close friends from Ukraine, being the only exception).
I could certainly be less selfish in the present, but everything I give and my pro bono work is all geared towards making the lives of the underprivileged better. It's at least 10% of my income this past year.
Plus, essentially my entire savings will go to the underprivileged when I die.
What about you? How much do you give and where does it go?
defend a holier than thou whiner
Wow... I've never heard an advocate for the underprivileged called a whiner before. That's... bold... ly bougie. Do you think we should let them eat cake?
This defensive reaction is toxic to the country. That's the zero-sum fallacy in emotional form. Just acknowledging that you had some advantages doesn't make you a bad person. It makes you a good person! It would be bad not to take advantage of your privileges.
I get after the left for falling into the zero-sum grievance trap too. Yes, there are lefties who stupidly try to make privileged people feel guilty about it. You don't have to believe them.
Jeff is overboard, flailing in the water.
Nova: Help me get Jeff!
Nico: I don’t acknowledge a distinction in our situations.
Nova: What? He’s in the water and you’re in the boat.
Nico: Stop whining about Jeff, you holier-than-thou leftie! How many of your rations do you throw overboard to Jeff every day? Give me a percentage!
Nova: Huh?
Nico: It’s just that I’m secretly afraid Jeff won’t fit on the boat and I’ll end up overboard. Jeanine said so.
Nova: There’s obviously plenty of room on the boat. Don’t pay attention to the fearmongers.
NOVA, first, thank you for answering.
I can answer your question seriously.
Approximately 50% percent of my professional time is pro bono. As for my estate when I pass, that goes to take care of my seriously disabled child. What I would do otherwise, I can’t say as it is too counterfactual.
Possibly. Or possibly if you faced any disciplinary issues at HS but were let off with a caution, the black Dr Ed would have been arrested, college admissions withdrawn, etc. and you’d be in the system. Or the young black Dr Ed gets pulled over by the cops for the nth time, gets angry, gets arrested for resisting arrest, and again, your career prospects go down the can.
I am pretty sure that most of your black colleagues won't open up to you about their experiences.
As previously stated, racial relations have made tremendous improvements since the 1950's/1960's.
The DEI movement is designed not to further the progress that has been made over the last 50-60 years but to set that progress back and recreate the divisions.
No, actually, this entire movement is not an endless stream of bad faith attempts to make people angry at you.
A jerkish comment that completely off topic instead of addressing a valid point
A jerkish comment that completely off topic instead of addressing a valid point
I think that applies to Tom's comment, not Sarcastro's.
Whatever the effects of DEI programs, the claim that they are designed to be harmful seems highly implausible to me. Maybe he has evidence.
You're right. It's an endless stream of bad-faith attempts to re-impose racism.
're-impose racism.'
Only people who have never ever in their life experienced racism think so.
Agreed. White people everywhere recognize that it's wrong to intentionally discriminate against Black people and other POC on the basis of their race alone. The battle is basically won, at this point.
When it comes to enduring racial inequality - well, look, it's not white people's fault that Black people are more likely to commit crimes, to fall behind in education, to be unable to get or keep employment, to build intergenerational wealth, to afford access to healthcare, to avoid pregnancy out of wedlock, and so on. Those are cultural issues that Black people need to sort out among themselves. Stop shooting one another, doing drugs, and having unprotected sex, like white people avoid doing without having to cry about a system that's against them. It's not that hard, is it?
In this respect, it would help a lot if Black people were to adopt more normal hairstyles, not name their kids strange names, avoid the use of ghetto slang in the workplace, listen to the same kinds of music as their coworkers and engage in the same kinds of pastimes. If Black people want to succeed in American society, they have to assimilate to American culture. That's really not too much to ask.
Just look at Asians. They assimilate to American standards of excellence and work tirelessly to earn success according to those standards. If systemic racism were a thing, it'd be working against them, too, wouldn't it? Checkmate, libz.
The other big correlator for wealth is married parents and grandparents regardless of race.
Man, constantly looking for ways to justify your racism. Sad.
Asian Americans who finished high school and/or undergraduate degrees are paid less than equivalently educated Whites. Asian Americans with a high school degree earn a median $41,084 per year, compared to $46,657 for Whites. Those with a bachelor’s degree earn $81,538, lagging college-educated White Americans’ $85,024 median salary.
Whoops, looks like you’re wrong again. But even more important than this data point is the history. Asians weren’t slaves, they’re here voluntarily (meaning they were well-off enough to emigrate) and/or came for work. Yes, there were a lot of near-slave-like labor conditions early on, but these days it’s mostly high-tech that’s hiring from overseas, and there are more developed Asian countries to hire from than African ones. So you end up with a very different community of Asians than Blacks in terms of demographics, opportunities, and wealth, based on circumstance, not culture.
Have you ever even been to a Black-dominated inner city? Platitudes like “study harder” aren’t enough to make up for the hardships. And the fact that you would go to names and hairstyles as part if the problem is proof of your fundamentally racist attitude.
"Ever been to a Black-dominated inner city"??
I only live in one.
and making excuses like you just did is the definition of Race-ism
Frank
Hahaha oh, you do make me laugh.
Randal - I was trying to rebut Tom's comment by responding in a manner I find very typical among commenters who nonetheless claim that "a lot of progress has been made" in ending racial discrimination in this country. My comment was intended to juxtapose that (false) assertion with the very clear racist thinking that they think they're not guilty of.
I don't believe any of this stuff. I was trying to bait them, not you.
Sorry, I did think it was out of character! You're just too good at it.
If you swap the position of all the adjectives (white/black, male/female, our/their, etc) and the message suddenly becomes unacceptable, maybe that position needs reconsidering.
You're right, of course. Unfortunately, the "woke" brigades disagree.
See, e.g.:
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/04/26/women-only-workout-areas-in-exercise-facilities/?comments=true#comment-8874242
Try swapping the relevant histories, along with the adjectives, and you would have a point. Insist on just the adjectives and all you are left with is malice.
I don't see anyone defending the actual alleged actions in the OP.
Why not judge peoples on the content of their character? I just came up with that myself!
"I'm generally pretty skeptical of imposing "hostile work environment harassment" liability on employers based on their or their employees' speech to the workplace at large...But while some judges have shared these First Amendment concerns, other judges (and other government actors) seem to be fine with such speech restrictions."
Yup. Much of the conduct above should be protected by the first amendment (at least if done by a private actor), but if courts are going to say that the first amendment doesn't protect speech that creates a hostile environment in the workplace, the certainly can't have "trainings" like these.
Although here the speech seems to be state government speech being subject to federal law. I'm not sure how that affects the analysis.
Quennie is really shoveling shit today.
And Prof. Volokh is really lathering his collection of worthless right-wing stains today.
Carry on, clingers. And try to remember that the magnanimity of the culture war's winners will soon be most of what conservatives have left in modern America.
The data is in, and trainings like this (even trainings much more mild than this) aren't effective anyway. I predict a huge scaling back of direct DEI investment for that reason alone. In fact, it's already begun.
I'll be interested to see how the discovery goes. Were the trainings really that bad, and if so, will Penn State stand behind them? It seems impossible to imagine that they would, they're so stupid. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of what "white" even means, and serves only to cement presently marginalized races (Blacks especially) permanently outside the mainstream. (There's a sense in which that's the whole goal, similar to the queer movement but in the context of race. BLM has elements of that. But even if that is your goal, it's stupid to focus on denigrating the mainstream... neither BLM nor Q makes that mistake for the most part. DEI shouldn't make it either.)
The data is in, and trainings like this (even trainings much more mild than this) aren’t effective anyway.
Big surprise.
Let's have a bunch of people come to a meeting, tell them they're bad people because they're white, and that they're racists, and they should stop it.
Yeah. That's sure to work.
This is what the racists keep gaslighting us about and try to convince us isn't actually happening.
The fact that this case is notable, not de rigueur, would imply that it isn't actually happening in anything like the pervasive way you've been convinced is the truth.
No, it mostly only indicates that people have now started documenting the kind of details that courts demand before they even consider allowing a hostile-environment claim.
Ah yes, we didn't see any substances reporting because they were all waiting for the court cases to start. Because that's how reporting works.
Asking us to wait because soon you'll be prove right is not really good evidence.
Especially since the right's been saying this kind of thing is open and obviously everywhere and when asked for evidence just pound the table.
.
You figure the Volokh Conspiracy, especially Prof. Volokh, is a worthwhile judge of what is notable in modern America?
Maybe in Trans This-Muslim-Gay-Drag Queen-Trans That-Lesbian-Racial Slur-Transtown.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/federal-judge-rules-ban-on-firearms-in-post-offices-unconstitutional/ar-AA1mVzYp?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=daa544a052344ba5b8f5925dfd69154f&ei=12
No doubt the 11th Circuit will stay the ruling. Liberals think Bruen allows any firearms restrictions under the son, and that the only important rights are killing babies and busting into men's rears.
Every single person who yells about blacks being inferior is super duper into having a lot of guns.
Something going on there. Something about loss of control.
Prejudge a group of people much?
Don't be a racist -- how is the so frigging hard????
You call me a self-hating white because I think affirmative action is not racist, so...I guess you don't find it very easy.
No, I called you racist because you support the racist policy of AA.
Don't be a racist, Sarc -- you have refused MANY times.
In my experiences here and on other sites, there is a striking pattern amongst right-wingers who want to deny institutional racism and hence to argue that all forms of, call it “corrective action”, that aren’t colour-blind are simply reverse racism and – racism being wrong, – are hence wrong. The argument has a degree of validity. BUT.
When you actually provide examples of non-discriminatory measures that have the effect of removing institutional racism or racist legacies, etc. they will argue against those as well because their real gripe is the removal of, guess what, privilege.
Example: suggest that legacy admissions be abolished. Clearly this is not race-based, but there will be plenty of weak counter-arguments advanced.
Example: suggest college admission on potential or circumstance-adjusted not unadjusted SAT scores. A white kid from a poor county in Kentucky with crap schools scores the same as a white kid from Westchester NY who went to a great HS – the former kid shows greater potential or at least circumstance-adjusted than the latter, so admit the former in preference to the latter – even if the latter has marginally higher SATs. Again, technically race-neutral – but the weak arguments will be advanced here as well, the racists worried that this will favour black kids from sometimes deliberately impoverished HSs over white kids from much better HSs – though all such a measure does is adjust for individual circumstances, not colour.
Etc.
Of course, if as SomeGuy claims, there are no advantages to being white, the measures I describe above, being entirely race-neutral, will not be unfair to anyone, white or black, so if you really do think there are no advantages, you won’t argue about this. But they will, of course.
That isn’t to argue against the case in the article. He is entirely right, and clearly some of his adversaries are racists.
Creating new discriminations solves nothing.
The arguments here are the ones which keep warfare going. There's little reasoning, well some have constructive points, but mostly it's an endless back and forth, much like . . . humans have always been - Argumentative
NVEric, if you think you have something constructive to contribute, give it a try. People who take issues less seriously, or who have views they judge unpopular, seem to be those who reach soonest for cynical dismissals.
Now address the problem that arises when you try to get rid of discrimination but the prior beneficiaries of that discrimination complain thatr they're now being discriminated against.
All this Bullshit about "Level Playing Fields" and then every Liberal SOB talks about how Clarence "Frogman" Thomas only got on the Court because he's a Knee-Grow. (Or Tim Scott in the Senate, Colon Powell to SOS, Herman Cain, insert Uppity Non-Plantation Knee-grow here) He got there just like Ka-grungy Jackson Brown, on the content of his character (or is Judge Thomas a "His"?? I can't tell myself)
Frank
I last night viewed a remarkable documentary, called A Most Beautiful Thing. I watched it on Amazon Prime. Very interested to see if any here have opinions to share.
The subject and premise is unexpected. A group of black ghetto youths from appalling Chicago backgrounds get recruited by a reform-minded rowing coach—who parachutes into their high school lunch room to recruit them. The coach thinks teaching members of rival street gangs to row in the same boat might do some good.
What happens is the story documented, which follows the results out to an encouraging but surprising conclusion 20 years later. If I had a button I could push that would force everyone commenting on this thread to watch that movie, and then discuss it here, I would push it pretty quick.
Thanks!
If people want the story from the horse's mouth, the team captain, Arshay Cooper wrote an account titled 'Suga Water', later republished as 'A Most Beautiful Thing'. I just ordered a copy.
Another entry in the 'athletes overcoming adversity' genre is 'The Boys in the Boat' (2013 book or 2023 movie). It chronicles the USA's gold medal winning crew team in the 1936 Berlin Olympics. My wife recently finished the book, and it's on my pile. She really liked it.
Thanks Absaroka for your reply.
The Boys in the Boat I read in one standing, after I first picked it up to browse in the aisle of Barnes and Noble. As a former oarsman myself, I am a privileged member of a fraternity which it is unwise to provoke into conversation. You must have time for hours of voluble-but-hopeless attempts to convey to someone who has not done anything like it (there is nothing like it) the ineffable joys of that sport.
“Trading Places” covered the same subject in 1983 and was actually entertaining. “Rowing”?? what if the boat overturns? you know Black Men can’t Swim! They should take a young Afro-Amurican and teach them to play Golf or Tennis, one day we might have one win one of the major titles!
Frank
No. In fact, just a couple years ago, a Christian had to go all the way to the Supreme Court because the school he worked for banned private prayer. Anti-Christian animus is fairly common and they're very aware of it.
So you're saying that there's a greater degree of Jewish fragility than Christian fragility?
That's certainly a reasonable opinion. But justified or not, I doubt you'd win over many Jewish people with workplace trainings about Jewish fragility.
“Huge predictors of wealth or educational attainment are your ancestors wealth and educational attainment.”
No one’s saying that there is no advantage to having ancestors with wealth and educational attainment.
I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that, or what we should do about it.
Yeah, black people are totally unique in having oppressed ancestors. Everybody else was having a great time throughout history, so surely this must explain everything.
No Queen, your a dumb twit.
My family has been here since 1644 and I'd love to see ONE benefit I have from that.
Get a fucking clue.
"Anti-discrimination laws would be largely defanged if co-workers speech could make the workplace unbearable."
Sure, but what does that have to do with the first amendment?
"But that’s likely a feature not a bug to some here."
And to the defendants in the lawsuit.
If they're truly harassing the person, then harassment is never protected by the 1st Amendment.
But it absolutely is protected to talk about how blacks are intellectually inferior, but most blacks would find that "hostile," as they are unable to internalize the fact that their race is dumber.
"Someone is saying “ There is no advantage to being white in America.”"
And in context, he's clearly saying that there's no current advantage. Nobody is claiming that there's no advantage to having wealthy ancestors, or that past policies made white people disproportionally wealthy.
But so what? There's advantage to having ancestors that lived in places with fertile farmland or navigable waterways as well. So what?
Please dont. That "Fargo" episode was creepy as (redacted)
Europe has had those problems for centuries, with not enough minorities to make any kind of statistical difference in advantage for those with wealthy ancestors.
A better challenge would be to find a country, regardless of race, that didn't have advantaged wealth.
Sigh. You're not going to win many people over with trainings about black fragility over either. I'm not sure why you expect to win people over with trainings about white fragility or Christian fragility.
And your analogy was pointless.
It certainly is in some aspects (i.e., viewpoint neutrality).
Otherwise it would rapidly become meaningless.
It's absolute when you faggots want to create porn and make school libraries carry it.
Fuck you.
"I’m not sure there’s anything wrong with that, or what we should do about it."
I would submit that society should attempt to level the playing field for a kid with poor parents, with e.g. scholarships and admissions preference. We surely don't want America to have the kind of hereditary class structure that Britain long had.
But that should extend only as far as the disadvantages the person in question actually experienced, and should end when the disadvantage does. For example, my parents were like 2 standard deviations below the mean, during the Great Depression. You can't get get a whole lot more disadvantaged than that. But they did the work-their-fingers-to-the-bone to put their kids through college (first ever in the family!) and as a result my siblings and I are solid middle to upper middle class. Our kids have had all the advantages of that, and don't deserve preferences because of what their grandparents endured.
Your mistake is assuming all whites have wealthy, educated ancestors. My ancestors came on a boat about a century ago, and had almost nothing.
There is a tiny cadre of (mostly) white elites that run everything and hold 99% of the wealth. The vast majority of white males have not benefitted from that in any significant way, and in fact are now disproportionately disadvantaged w/regard to their non-white peers.
"most of our history that was part and parcel of them being horribly discriminated against and terrorized"
This sort of over-the-top hysteria helps no one. You won't win over anyone by telling obvious lies, assuming they won't be challenged because everyone's afraid of being called a racist. All you do is convince people that progressives are wildly dishonest, which isn't true except for loudmouth idiots like you. Please, for the good of progressive values, shut the fuck up and keep it that way.
It's not a fake case. The school did indeed ban prayer, simply because other people also made the spontaneous and free decision to join him. Liberals hate Christianity so much they tied themselves into knots trying to figure out a legal way to ban a spontaneous choice to pray. Needless to say, the Constitution does not allow this.
Blacks are more funny about black face and the n word because for most of our history that was part and parcel of them being horribly discriminated against and terrorized, the same can’t be said about whites and white face and cracker.
Blacks are more fragile about everything or at least pretend to be for strategic reasons. Which is what makes "white fragility" such a hilarious meme-- it's projection from a bunch of people who complain about every damn thing.
The "But my ancestors" thing is equally pathetic. Everybody has oppressed ancestors in their past. Successful cultures adapt. Failure culture clings to historical grievances and blames others for their failures. I'm hearing a lot of failure culture from you throughout this thread.
No, it's pointless to analogize racism to anti-Semitism when you could have made your point (or lack thereof) just as easily by discussing racism.
the disadvantages the person in question actually experienced
But that's the rub - there are demonstrably some large demographically-based headwinds whose causality we're only beginning to unwind. Sometimes that demographic is race or gender, sometimes it's what state you live in. I saw a study about military families, having some unique challenges.
Does that mean you can tie it to *every* black person? No. But it means it's very difficult to tell for each individual.
I'm currently working on outreach to tribal colleges and universities in my job.
It's really interesting - they don't want to move away from their tribal lands. And the research they tend towards has some tie to the needs of their local community. Oftentimes PhDs hold no interest to them.
But there are a lot of smart people, and new perspectives to bring to the fore. Put them into a larger team as true partners and with their buy-in, and you have the potential to make leap-frogging breakthroughs.
We're not there yet, but we'd be foolish to ignore the potential of dedicated outreach tailored to tribal colleges and universities because it's not fair to white people.
"I would submit that society should attempt to level the playing field for a kid with poor parents, with e.g. scholarships and admissions preference. We surely don’t want America to have the kind of hereditary class structure that Britain long had."
We already do that with subsidized education and progressive taxation. And we certainly don't want a de jure hereditary class structure.
But we certainly don't want to nullify parents' attempts to provide advantages for their children. There are huge positive externalities to providing lots of educational resources to children.
.
How many lynchings in your family, dumbass?
How many lynchers, asshole?
Get an education, clinger.
So now your goalposts have shifted from having wealthy, privileged ancestors, to having ancestors that weren't actively terrorized, lol
Your original point was "Huge predictors of wealth or educational attainment are your ancestors wealth and educational attainment."
So no, that wasn't your original point.
But you're A-OK with the people who didn't cause the problem (or contribute to it) bearing the bulk of the retribution as some form of justice, while the elite are still the elite.
For the same reason that they say that pointing a gun at someone can be proscribed when pointing a starfish at someone would not.
The Volokh Conspiracy: Official "Legal" and "Libertarian" Blog of Right-Wing Racists . . . with Bonus Racial Slurs!
The racial bias was displayed by Biden.
Austin is a retired 4 star, and I respect that.
But reality is that any 4 star is WAY too political, too “go along to get along”, to be a good Secretary of Defense. The only exception I can think of is Colin Powell, and he was Secretary of State, not Defense.
In all honesty, I’m not impressed with ANYONE in Brandon’s administration, and Austin’s done some things that I do NOT respect.
We already do that with subsidized education and progressive taxation.
This is not a problem you solve by throwing money at it - affirmative action but for poor people has been tried; it doesn't work well.
Turns out higher education has a whole culture and expectations that work great for people who grow up expecting to go to college, but which don't work great for first time college goers or other cohorts that aren't quite on that line; a more directed support system is needed.
I think it is nice that these right-wing law professors provide a safe space for conservative bigots to vent.
Drewski, what you call, "obvious lies," you did in your comment.
I, like a great many people my age, remember vividly when practice of terrorism against blacks, including state-sponsored terrorism, was routine in this nation, and nearly ubiquitous. Nor was that terroristic conduct confined to blacks. It was applied alike to terrorize whites whom the terrorists deemed sympathetic to blacks. So much of that is long-familiar history—and indeed notorious history—that I cannot see your own comment as anything but a knowing and deliberately-chosen continuation of that terroristic racism.
Folks who purport to wonder when government policies favorable to blacks will no longer be necessary should stay mindful of Drewski. He is the guy extending the programs.
"I saw a study about military families, having some unique challenges."
Hey, I lived that!
"But it means it’s very difficult to tell for each individual."
I dunno. For an obvious example, I think that if your parent's income or net worth are in the 90th+ percentile, you shouldn't get preference over someone whose parents are 10th percentile, just because your grandparents had it tough. It's not that hard to see what number is on the 1040.
More specifically, threats aren't protected speech.
Spinach Chin neglects to notice how many U.S. blacks have wealthy, educated ancestors. Some are even descended from U.S. presidents.
It's actually a telling point of comparison. How have the children of white, wealthy, well-educated fathers fared, depending on whether the children were judged black or white?
Absaroka, black children born into upper-middle-class families with educated parents are not good candidates for special help from government policies. I would be strongly in favor of polices tailored to reflect that.
Would you be strongly in favor of policies to assist other black children, born disproportionately into situations deprived of family assets of any kind (let alone wealth), and with little family educational attainment?
Or are you now marching among the ranks of the "anti-racists are the real racists," advocates?
Sure, as far as that goes.
But that’s reducing a lot of channels of engagement outreach and assistance to a single dimension.
If that were all DEI were doing these days, (and that is a fair description for decades up to around the 2010s) I would agree with you.
the school he worked for banned private prayer.
No. It didn't. Not even close. The whole case was a fabrication. It's embarrassing that the court fell for it.
There’s advantage to having ancestors that lived in places with fertile farmland or navigable waterways as well.
Shame on all those Blacks in the South who never took advantage of all that farmland and those waters to build wealth. Just lazy, I guess.
You're argument is idiotic.
black children born into upper-middle-class families with educated parents are not good candidates for special help from government policies.
What about special preferences for college admissions?
I am strongly in favor of trying to level the playing field **for all children** across the socioeconomic spectrum.
"outreach to tribal colleges and universities in my job"
Good luck with that, truly.
The tribal areas are replete with poverty and conditions that persistently disadvantage children and young adults. Depression and negative societal pressures about. The situation has far fewer opportunities than one even finds in the inner cities.
Gaslight0, what are they going to DO with their PhDs???
You'll see the same thing in rural WHITE communities -- not wanting the education because it means leaving the community.
I dealt with that and wish I hadn't gone to college...
My job is not poverty abatement, it’s research capacity looking towards research outcomes.
And thank goodness, confronting the issue of poverty in tribal areas the tools I’m working are manifestly inadequate. But for increasing research? I’m optimistic, if only because we are starting so far back.
Neither one is necessarily a threat. But you can only ban burning a cross (or, I presume, a starfish) if it’s done with the intent to intimidate.
Well, (intentionally) burning most things in someone's yard without their consent would be a crime. The severity of that crime can be elevated if the intent was to intimidate or threaten, and choosing a cross to burn is a good indication of that, whereas choosing a starfish to burn is a good indication of being mentally queenie.
Geeze, how old are you, anyway? I turn 65 tomorrow, and never saw any of that crap personally.
"... remember vividly when practice of terrorism against blacks, including state-sponsored terrorism, was routine in this nation..."
Otherwise known as the Democrat party at work.
Do you consider 60-70 million (gets complicated when you have to consider fertility rates, life expectancy) blacks killed by Abortion since 1973 to be "State Sponsored Terrorism"???
How many 400 year old people do you know, of any race?
No, there's no particular advantage to being white in today's America. It actually gets you actively discriminated against in many circumstances, now.
How many people on this website jump to 'just an affirmative action hire' the moment anyone nonwhite is hired for anything? From doctor to Supreme Court Justice? Someone just did it for the fucking Secretary of Defense.
That right there? That is something everyone hears. It doesn't really register to you and I because it isn't about us. There are legit studies it fucks with nonwhite kids educational attainment.
I'm not saying that means anything policywise by itself. I am saying that anyone claiming the playing field is racially even, or that white people are the ones who have it hard is missing some stuff.
Class matters too, perhaps more in terms of unlocking their merit; perhaps less. But it matters *differently.*
I ask people who claim that the only issue we have these days is discrimination against whites if they'd choose to become black. With precisely one exception they uncomfortably move on.
You all know, even as you insist it's the other way. Y'all know.
And now Whites are being systematically discriminated against and terrorized.
The solution is to end discrimination and jail terrorists.
Only now the only ones doing it are other blacks.
Liberals hate Christianity
Over half of liberals call themselves Christian; don't pull that victimization crap.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/political-ideology/liberal/
Blacks are more fragile about everything or at least pretend to be for strategic reasons
Fuckin cunning negroes, eh?
For fuck's sake.
Failure culture
Says the guy claiming victimhood.
It’s not a fake case. The school did indeed ban prayer,
No. The school offered to let him go to his office after the game and pray, and even to keep the field open so he could pray after others had left. He was on duty until all the players were gone.
He wanted to make a show of it.
simply because other people also made the spontaneous and free decision to join him.
Yeah. None of the players felt any pressure whatsoever. Forget it.
It’s not a fake case.
It was a fake case.
Failure culture
You've accurately described your and Ed's white grievance.
Needless to say, those were not the facts of the case. There was nothing "spontaneous" about what he was doing — indeed, he publicized it in advance — and he was ostentatiously praying while on the job, when he was supposed to be coaching. He was told that he could of course pray on his own time, but he wanted to do it in public where the players on his team would feel coerced into joining him. (Of course, some might have welcomed it, because they somehow magically skipped the part of the Christian version of the Bible which tells them not to pray in public.)
black people are totally unique in having oppressed ancestors
Is anyone arguing that?
I don't know how old Lathrop is, but I can assure you that I can remember an awful lot of that.
Ever heard of "Bombingham?"
It wasn't just the one well-known case.
Anyway, whether you were around or not, or old enough to know what was going on, it was definitely going on.
Unfamiliar with the complicity of law enforcement in racist violence?
Ever heard of the Selma March, the Freedom Riders,? Happened when you were about
Or lots of other incidents?
Anyway, whether you were around or not, or old enough to know what was going on, it was definitely going on.
1)I have seen some of it personally.
2)Not seeing something personally doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Bellmore, I am 77-years old. Born in DC, taken home to Virginia. Raised later in what amounted to a hillbilly enclave, populated mostly by West Virginians brought to the outskirts of DC, so the Navy could make use of them as civilians, who knew a thing or two about machinery. Then a stint in Florida. Then later transplanted to a different neighborhood outside DC, populated almost entirely by Jewish families, except ours, which by that time did not practice religion. Then off to see the broader world.
Slurs and random accusations of homosexuality as an insult, like it's 1990 and you're in middle school.
And below, out-and-proud racism.
Welcome to the Conspiracy. You're on mute.
You're the one that chalked up the SecDef's recent fuckup on his blackness. Like being African American makes you prone to not reporting your medical issues up the chain.
Being cartoonishly racist WAS a Democratic Party thing...but I'd bet a cartoonish racist such as yourself votes for the other folks, eh?
I disagree that it's too harsh. Abrasoka should know better.
His parents were alive during the Great Depression and poor. Okay.
But they did the work-their-fingers-to-the-bone
At jobs that, very likely either were unavailable to their Black peers or which paid them more than their Black peers earned and had more growth/promotion opportunities than their Black peers.
to put their kids through college (first ever in the family!)
Yes, and those kids had the benefit of being in the dominant caste which afforded them the better funded, better staffed, better supplied elementary, middle, and high schools. Schools were still officially segregated in the South when Abrasoka went to school and were de facto segregated in the North. Consequently, he and his siblings had a major educational advantage prior to going to college. Further, because of official and unofficial discrimination in colleges, they also had far more options and opportunities.
Moreover, if his parents purchases a home, they had access to neighborhoods that their Black peers did not. Neighborhoods with better schools, less likely to be in polluted areas, more likely to be well-policed, less likely to be overcrowded and neglected by the cities. They also had preferential mortgage rates compared to their Black peers.
and as a result my siblings and I are solid middle to upper middle class.
As a result of all that hard work and all those additional advantages not available to 12% of the population, sure. But not only those, there are many other advantages, including the advantage of networking opportunities when they went to college, their advantages in hiring, promotions, etc., when they graduated college and entered the work force, as compared to their Black peers in the 1960s, 70s and/or early 80s. Yes, it got progressively better in each of those decades, but there wasn't anything close to full equal opportunity in any of those decades. Good ole boy networks don't go away that quickly.
Also, if Abrasoka and his siblings married, then they had a dating pool of other similarly advantaged potential spouses. Interracial marriage was illegal in many parts of the country and actively frowned upon in most of the rest. This means they were more likely to be able to marry up the socio-economic ladder, which is a well-known way of gaining access to networks and wealth.
The lynchings are just the most graphic way Abrasoka's family was privileged vis a vis 12% of the population simply by virtue of being in the dominant caste. If he occasionally makes good comments, he's smart enough to understand that fact in 2024. His pretending his family was very nearly the most disadvantaged (and the implication that others who didn't achieve what his family did in the same era his did) is bullshit and he should be called on it. It's either willful blindness or embarrassingly ignorant for him to say what he said.
Frankly, Rev was too easy on him.
No, I blame it on him being part of the Brandon Administration...
IMO, his blackness had NADA, ZIP, NOTHING to do with his screw up. His appointment is another matter.
"it’s research capacity looking towards research outcomes"
In what sense is that outreach beyond at least engaging with people in tribal areas?
More importantly how will it be used in the near future by people who are trying to improve the prospects of the present generation of kids born in tribal areas?
I know that one has to start somewhere.
Sarcastro, can you say more? I am having a hard time understanding what, "research capacity looking towards research outcomes," comprises. I ask entirely out of curiosity (with a bit of a hope that somewhere someone is systematically investigating outcomes of the Dawes Act.)
So how much of your income do you give to the underprivileged to make up for you obviously excessive privilege?
Seriously, give us the percentage. 10%? 20%?
While you're at it did your parents go to college? Or maybe to a divinity school?
Nova Lawyer comes close.
I argue that native Americans were oppressed with consequences similar to those inflicted on blacks, and that no other groups suffered comparably to those two.
When the notion of affirmative action policies was first haphazardly broached across various social and political institutions, it triggered a foreseeable competition among groups in addition to blacks and American Indians to get on the list of AA beneficiaries. It was a mistake to let that happen.
Another mistake was not to face squarely and publicly what was going on. There was pretense that no one would be harmed while resources were mobilized to help so many groups which had been systematically oppressed, albeit to varying effect.
In effect, what happened circa the 1970s was that the nation finally came to public awareness of the shocking consequences of centuries of class oppression. Tacitly, the issue arose, “What will it cost to fix that?” Every estimate of the answer to that question resulted in political recoil. To ask the question at all quickly became an error that would get the questioner cast outside the frame of the Overton window.
Few if any policy makers thought the nation had either the financial resources, or the political will, to pay any such price. But with cities in flames it became politically impossible to ignore the question. Some way had to be found to address the question, without confronting publicly the political implications.
The result of that dilemma was a policy botch of gigantic proportions. By haphazard process—never acknowledging any particularized overall intent—it was decided that the price so high that the entire nation could not afford to pay it, would be inflicted instead on one targeted demographic: lower-status white males. Those would be forced to foot long-term the entire bill the nation as a whole could not afford to pay short-term. To do it, the lower status white males would forego opportunities which had admittedly long been theirs as a matter of privilege. That result seemed especially just to discrimination victims who judged lower-status white males their principal oppressors. It also seemed especially convenient to high-status white male policy makers who would escape paying much at all.
Almost everyone else was to be counted an affirmative action beneficiary, except those high status white males. Because they were positioned to award themselves a pass from most inflictions, they got to keep intact the most glittering social and material privileges the world had ever seen. The solution worked so well for them that those already-gigantic privileges have continued to enlarge right down to the present.
So it happened that affirmative action policies came to provide educational and job preferences of varying sizes—for blacks, Indians, women, Hispanics, etc.—regardless of particularized needs, regardless of ancestry or any familial disadvantage from oppressive policies, and, crucially and destructively, without any record keeping to detail who benefitted, who suffered, and by what amounts.
In that way affirmative action became a means to revolutionize the structure of opportunity at the firehouse and the police station, with notably less upheaval within university faculty, the learned professions, corporate boardrooms, and political bodies. The benefit of whatever upheaval there was among those higher status demographics was quickly allocated principally to higher status-white women. A few black women also benefited.
By comparison, male descendants of enslaved black Americans, who arguably needed the help most, got worse than nothing. The neediness among that group was so extreme that they were judged too hard to cope with, and beyond help. Their lot was to be systematically criminalized.
American Indians mostly sat on the sidelines in remote locations. Their lot was to suffer with lesser helps the inherited disadvantages of shocking policies first inflicted centuries previously, and later reinforced anew toward the end of the 19th century.
Thus, that actually zero-sum reckoning was inflicted without records to memorialize which lower-status white males had been forced to contribute opportunities or promotions to the cause of social and material advancement for others. In that way the door was opened to public abuse and shaming of any such male who complained. Reminders that other higher-status whites still held disproportionate power became the near-universal retort to complaints from lower-status white males who objected that their share of the beneficial sacrifice was mounting toward the entire share.
On the plus side, beneficiaries increasingly included women of all races and backgrounds. Corporations in particular figured out promptly that awarding higher status to women went down well as PR, while enlarging the available work force to keep wages and salaries in check. Resourceful by design, corporate personnel managers also discovered the PR advantages they could get by adding to their workforces an array of racially diverse not-actually-disadvantaged males, often from backgrounds with recent roots abroad.
That is a capsule summary of what I think social policies in this nation—government policy, judicial policy, and corporate policy alike—have been up to for my entire adult lifetime. It began as a well-intentioned effort, but initial good intentions could not stand up to the political stresses they called forth.
That policy set quickly degenerated toward widely-applauded opportunism, because it at least notionally rewarded a broad constituency. Insight into the fundamental instability implicated by those choices has become widespread, but not widely discussed. It seems a malign Overton frame continues to exclude such discussions from an institutionally protected center forum.
The result? Seething rage which actually threatens the continued existence of American constitutionalism as this nation’s form of government. It is quite late for the nation’s political, judicial, and corporate leaders to take stock, and embark on a new more-forthright policy to continue to implement those long-ago good intentions. If those leaders let the present course continue to unfold, reactive changes will be forced upon them, I think. To what effect seems impossible to say.
Too late tonight to detail a complete answer on college admissions preferences. In general, I favor policies based on group history and experience, and oppose policies based on rationalism to the extent that the latter interfere with the former. Details matter, and I think in most cases details do not justify the same kind of preferences I would support for genuinely disadvantaged black and American Indian candidates. I get that my preferences do not align with current law.
Ha lol. Snowflakes melt.
And Nico jumps immediately into zero-sum guilt. Pathetic. Turn off Jeanine Pirro and get a grip.
What Randal said.
But what happened in history, the present day effects, and the proper policy response to that are entirely different questions from how selfish or selfless an individual is. You're just trying to change the conversation to something you think maybe you can win. It's always easy to argue someone isn't doing enough. Basically, nobody in the United States is doing enough given all the poverty and struggle in the world.
So what are you doing to help the less fortunate? And don't include giving to your church, or at least subtract out the amount that goes to supporting your religion, if you have one, rather than what is actually going to people to help them in a non-spiritual, i.e., real and tangible, way.
Who are you, Navin Johnson??
Lord loves a Workin man, See a Doctor and get rid of it, Don't trust Whitey??
Frank
No consideration of the content of the applicants character? I seem to remember someone saying that.
Actually, even Professional playing fields aren't "Level" Football fields have a 12-18 inch "Crown" to allow water to drain more efficiently.
I suppose if they were smarter they could internalize they were dumber. Talking about white bigots, of course.
It's still in it's early stages, but there are at least four thrusts.
1) improving the capacity of local research institutions in a sustainable way that aligns with but augments their existing directions of strength is one thing. Could be faculty hires, could be equipment or infrastructure buys.
There's some issue spending research funding in helping schools with the mechanics of grant writing.
2) Connecting research institutions into the larger research ecosystem. Is a TCU very good at working with something specialized like water toxicity? Well maybe highlight to potential PIs leading a consortium grant. Or maybe tag a TCU as a user facility nearby schools can go to on some clearinghouse for such information.
If there is a cultural dimension on some social science research a TCU would provide a useful broadening of perspective. Manufacturing institutions might also have some opportunities for partnerships there.
3) This is really early, but a long term research relationship with steady support can be a game-changer. Likely via a contract with a consortium that could be sub-awarded internally as grants. Give faculty the financial flexibility to do research instead of teaching. Which in turn means the same for grad students. I'm not sure this would work at all, but first step is to understand the lay of the land to see how something like that would work.
4) STEM pipeline opportunities. Internships, fellowships; ways that students would have the opportunity to understand the professional opportunities open to them and develop as they would need to.
Yes I shot him, he was attacking me with a Banana!
I don't have to listen to you either, man! Put you on "mute" See how you like it. Just total f***in' silence. Mute! Two can play at that game, smart guy. We'll just see how you like it. Total silence. Mute, total silence, just total silence.
Why does it always have to be about you? Ass-uming Afro-Amuricans can't compete with other races and need "reparations" (I totally agree on Reparations with Afro-Amuricans! how much are they going to pay us?) is the definition of Race-ism.
Frank
Thank you for the information. I am fairly aware of the conditions in New Mexico. I suggest that if allowable, your department make connections with Los Alamos and Sandia labs that have a strong interest in promoting and improving opportunities in tribal communities.
North Dakota is our pilot area, IIRC. All predecisional at this point, of course.
(My duties lie more in the chief of staff realm so I need to know what’s going on everywhere, and I’m not above offering my take, I’m not actually the one implementing)
We do have an FFRDC component of the ecosystem development thrust. But there remains a lot of translation to be done to make the fit as a true partnership and not just paperwork so each gets a few more $$. IMO.
Hahaha.
I hate preachy people who don't put their money where their mouuth is.
How is that "zero-sum guilt?" except as a phrase to make you sound clever.
Shame on you for the knee jerk reaction.
You should spend more time reading your Bible and less time on Fox, Newsman, OAN, Volokh Conspiracy, etc.
Or, maybe, you could try some nonfiction for once.
Carry on, clinger.
Shame on me for the knee-jerk reaction?! Your knee jerked directly into reparations-land. That's what I mean by zero-sum guilt. This isn't about privileged people having to give up their money or privilege. So you can stop panicking. It's just about acknowledging that not everyone is so privileged and then figuring out how to extend those privileges -- not cash -- to more people.
77? so I'm guessing there weren't alot of Afro-Amuricans in your High School.
Sidney Lanier High School in Montgomery Alabama named after the Poet Sidney Lanier, even the sports teams were called "The Poets"
(they've recently changed the name, you know what virulent race-ist poems old Sidney penned)
went from 100% White in 1964 to 99% Black in 2024 (Marine Corpse friend of mine used to recruit there, for that 1% who had to be tough as shit just to not get killed)
Frank
Nova Lawyer comes close.
Candidate for stupidest comment of the year. Getting a good head start in the 2024 race, aren't you, Don?
> Over half of liberals call themselves Christian; don’t pull that victimization crap.
Most Liberals call themselves "anti-racists" too, but they are bringing back segregation and judging people solely based on the color of their skin.
Ignore the lies they say, and watch what they actually do.
You don't now what a Christian can be, I guess.
Hint: Not all of them are into public prayer, state money used on religious stuff, and hating (gays/abortion/the government).
You do, and your defense is pretty weak tea.
Wow! It's a good thing that your speech has been chilled by Nieporent. Otherwise this comment would have been a book.
What's wrong with public prayer. Why should Christians be in the closet? BTW, I wouldn't call liberal denominations like Unitarian Universalism Christian. They're more about Marx than scripture.
1 Timothy 2:8
I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting;