The Volokh Conspiracy
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January 6 and Insurrection - a Response to Ross Douthat
On Douthat's reasoning, published in the NY Times, Confederate secession wasn't an insurrection either.

In an article published today, New York Times columnist Ross Douthat responds to my and others' arguments that the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol qualifies as an "insurrection" under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. To his credit Douthat recognizes that uprisings much smaller than the Civil War - including the Whiskey Rebellion and Adolf Hitler's 1923 Beer Hall Putsch " - meet a reasonable definition of insurrection." As I have pointed out previously, these cases featured violence on roughly the same scale as the January 6 attack.
But Douthat nonetheless claims such cases "are obviously different from Jan. 6":
[T]he 14th Amendment disqualifies anyone who engaged "in insurrection or rebellion against the same" — with "the same" referring back to "the Constitution of the United States" in the prior clause. This wording tracks with my own understanding: What transforms a political event from a violent riot or lawless mob (which Jan. 6 plainly was) to a genuinely insurrectionary event is the outright denial of the authority of the existing political order and the attempt to establish some alternative order in its place.
There is no question that this is what the Munich Beer Hall Putsch set out to do….
[T]here was no such equivalent declaration when the QAnon Shaman ascended to the Senate rostrum; no serious claim of military or political authority made on behalf of the assembled mob, no declaration of a dissolved Congress and a new Trumpist Reich. Had there been — had, say, one of Trump's aides rushed to the Capitol and announced that Congress was disbanded and that President Trump was declaring a state of emergency and would henceforth be ruling by fiat — then the riot would have been transformed into an insurrectionary coup d'état. But nothing like that happened: The riot did not culminate in an attempt to depose the Congress; it dissolved before lawful authority instead, remaining a mob until the end.
The problem with Douthat's reasoning is that it implies the Confederates who were the original targets of Section 3 weren't insurrectionists either! Far from rejecting the Constitution and "denying the authority of the existing political order," they argued the Constitution gave their states a legal right to secede, and that Abraham Lincoln and the federal government were the ones acting illegally. Moreover, they had a much better legal rationale for their position than Trump supporters for the utterly indefensible claim that their man was the true winner of the 2020 election. Violently attempting to block the constitutionally required transition of power to the winner of a presidential election is pretty obviously an insurrection against the Constitution - even if the perpetrators don't explicitly say so. I go into these points in greater detail in a post published in September.
Douthat's theory also has the absurd implication that people trying to seize power by force can escape disqualification under Section 3 so long as they claim - however implausibly - that they are actually following the Constitution and their opponents are the true lawbreakers. You don't have to be a constitutional lawyer to see why that's an implausible conclusion - one that would set a dangerous precedent.
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There was a clear difference between the Civil War and the New York Draft Riots.
The problem with this debate is it tells us very little about whether Trump was an insurrectionst. Trump has never been charged with insurrection, he hasn't had an opportunity to confront his accusers, call witnesses for his own defense, and present his own evidence.
That's because he has never been charged with insurrection. He has not been charged with insurrection because the DOJ doubts they can prove insurrection beyond a reasonable doubt.
It tells us Douthat is kinda bad at this sort of argument.
He’s one of those people that believes water boarding isn’t torture when implemented by a Jesus Lover like W, The President.
It is always painful reading Douthat. He writes his pablum like it was a term paper
Douthat is on a Mission From God. And not the good (Jake and Elwood) kind.
There could be a variety of reasons why the DOJ does not pursue insurrection charges. It could be that they doubt whether he truly did commit the acts with the requisite intent. It could be that they doubt they could prove each of those. Or it could be that they doubt that a jury of Donald J. Trump's peers wouldn't nullify.
I can't speak for the Special Counsel, but there are several plausible reasons not to have charged Donald Trump with insurrection under 18 U.S.C. § 2383. Trump is 77 years old and is charged in multiple federal districts with offenses carrying greater penalties than § 2383. The charges he is facing are simpler, more straightforward and easier to prove than § 2383. An insurrection charge, over and above charges he is presently facing, would complicate the proceedings and lengthen any trial.
Jack Smith know a bit about holding despots to account. Every day that Donald Trump spends in a courtroom is a day longer that he stays out of prison.
Then don't try to inflict the penalty for charges that haven't been charged, let alone convicted of.
Jeff Davis was never charged or convicted either
Donald Trump is charged in D.C. with violating 18 U.S.C. §§ 241, 371, 1512(c)(2) and 1512(k). He is charged in Florida with violations of 18 U.S.C. §§ 2, 793(e), 1001(a)(1), 1001(a)(2), 1512(b)(2)(A), 1512(b)(2)(B) and 1519. If convicted he will be sentenced for these offenses -- likely to an effective term of imprisonment which he will not live to serve out.
For reasons I have explained ad infinitum before, disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is a civil disability and not a criminal penalty.
This isn't a penalty. It's a constitutionally imposed disqualification. He's not at jeopardy of life, liberty, or property from state determinations of his qualifications to be POTUS, and he has remedies available.
Yes, but we've been informed repeatedly that Smith is an instrumental part of Joe Biden's vicious conspiracy to prevent Trump from ascending to his rightful position.
Now you're telling us that Smith simply declined to charge Trump with the very crime the conviction of which would accomplish that exact goal?
Because convicting him, and getting it to stick, are very unlikely, and being acquitted for insurrection would make continuing the attack on his qualifications politically difficult.
You're saying Jack Smith coordinated with the Republicans in Colorado who sought to disqualify Trump - more than a year in advance of their attempt. And he gamed the judicial assignment for a corrupt judge that would play along, again over a year ahead, and with such confidence that he avoided charging Trump in the knowledge that this will play out perfectly. Presumably you think he has SCOTUS under his thumb, too, or the whole fever dream of a plan fails.
This conspiracy is yuuuuge! More bigly than Jina!
"a jury of Donald J. Trump’s peers wouldn’t nullify"?
In DC?
Let's keep this reality based.
I detected a tongue planted firmly in cheek, didn't you?
in other words. The elements are absent preventing prosecution.
But the larger issue is the 14th cannot bar a person from running for President. Two items in the 14th amendment make that clear
What items make it clear the states must put a person who doesn't meet the constitutional requirements to be POTUS on the ballot?
he hasn’t had an opportunity to confront his accusers, call witnesses for his own defense, and present his own evidence.
Yes, he had all these opportunities at the district court trial.
No, he didn't. His chef accusers were the January 6th committee, after all.
By this logic, the accuser in a criminal trial is the forensic examiner.
Wow! That is a stretch.
So is Brett's take that the January 6th Committee is Trump's accuser in any kind of legal sense.
Nobody has accused Trump of Insurrection in any legal sense.
That, Kazinski, is a flat out lie. Why am I unsurprised?
Read the Anderson petition in Colorado. https://www.citizensforethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/2023-09-06-08-43-07-Anderson-v-Griswold-Verified-Petition-2023.09.06.pdf
Yeah, Kaz, every single Section 3 lawsuit is doing that, don't be silly.
"No, he didn’t. His chef accusers were the January 6th committee, after all."
You are lying, Brett. The accusers in Denver are six Colorado voters -- four Republicans and two unaffiliated.
I sad his chief accusers, not his only accusers.
The act of compiling evidence and reaching a conclusion that someone did crimes does not make you an accuser, even if that is entered into evidence.
As noted in my example of the forensic examiner.
Maybe colloquially, but even then I'd find the language kinda odd. 'The Jan 06 Committee Accusers.'
Colorado had a hearing before a trial judge. Trump was represented in that hearing. The trial judge found he'd engaged in insurrection.
How can he defend himself on an insurrection charge when he hasn't been indicated?
The same way Jeff Davis did.
The same way you can defend yourself on a speeding charge.
The same way Trump defended himself on Carroll’s rape charges.
He can't, but he hasn't been charged.
"Trump has never been charged with insurrection, he hasn’t had an opportunity to confront his accusers, call witnesses for his own defense, and present his own evidence."
That is simply untrue. There was a five day, full blown trial in Denver regarding whether Donald Trump engaged in insurrection. Trump's counsel cross-examined witnesses for the petitioners and called witnesses on Trump's behalf. Trump had the opportunity to testify himself, which he elected not to do.
Show me where in the Denver trial Trump was charged with insurrection (18 U.S. Code § 2383).
Or for that matter, where ANYONE involved with Jan 6 was charged.
Show me where disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 -- a civil disability -- requires an antecedent § 2383 conviction.
As I have explained ad infinitum on these comment threads, if § 3 (adopted in 1868) imposes a criminal penalty, it could not have been applied ex post facto to disqualify former Confederates for their conduct during the Civil War. That would have defeated the raison d'être for that section of the Fourteenth Amendment entirely.
Still waiting, Mr. Rohan.
Lordy, for the 121st time. The riot was not the insurrection. It was a happy occurrence for Trump...possibly intended...but not insurrection (until proven otherwise). The real insurrection was the coordinated effort and affirmative actions among Trump, his entourage, Republican members of Congress and state actors to defraud the United States and to erase the votes of millions in five states. Are you a lawyer? Does any of this ring a bell?
Tend to agree, but to shade it more toward combining the violence with the planning. And I think very-long-term planning to encourage violence can be shown in evidence.
One of the news stations, maybe CNN, recently broadcast a montage of Trump exhorting various crowds to violence. Not hinting at violence, not talking obliquely around violence. Calling outright for violence in so many words.
I am sure most can remember some of that, "Put people in the hospital," stuff. I remembered only two or three of the examples; there were more I had not heard of. It was a remarkable catalog of long-running vicious exhortation.
Having fed that stuff continuously to his base, I do not think it unreasonable to hold Trump accountable on the basis that he understood them to intend violence, and Trump encouraged it again before January 6, and on January 6.
This is pointless speculation. If Trump is ever held to account by adults, he is toast. And, deep down, he knows it.
It’s just part of the “4D chess” they’re playing. They think if they relentlessly focus on one dramatic, but relatively minor, aspect of the insurrection, no one will notice the other aspects.
Or, at least none of their fellow “players” will notice…
"It was a happy occurrence for Trump…possibly intended"
This completely and utterly misunderstands what Trump was attempting to do, in a way that's perfectly natural, I suppose, if you start from the presumption that January 6th was an insurrection, and reason back from that.
[Deletes long winded explanation.]
How do you imagine this going down? They break in, capture Pence and the members of Congress, and force them at the point of a flag pole to declare Trump President?
Fine. What next?
Everybody is going to know the vote was involuntary. Trump would have to repudiate it, or be publicly complicit. You think this is going to work?
No, nobody is going to take that vote at face value. The SS would probably arrest Trump. Escalating efforts would be made to free the captives, and the moment they weren't under direct threat they'd repudiate the vote. Biden's victory would be cemented beyond all dispute.
Tyrants who do this sort of thing do it when they ALREADY have unchallenged control of the military, and they want to add a superficial gloss of formal legitimacy to their de facto position. TRUMP wasn't in a position to do this sort of thing!
No, he was attempting to apply political pressure, even intimidation, to the people running the process, to get them to exercise discretion in his favor. It had to be political pressure, because that would last to the next election, not expire by the next day.
Replacing political with physical pressure killed his efforts, it wasn't part of them. It made his challenge radioactive, and forced him to concede the election!
And that it would do that was perfectly predictable. That's why January 6th makes more sense as a Reichstag fire than as an insurrection. As a Reichstag fire, it worked great. As an insurrection, it was hilariously doomed.
January 6th makes more sense as a Reichstag fire than as an insurrection.
Everything you don’t like is a conspiracy.
Read the Eastman memos. Read the Colorado opinion. Read the DC indictment. They ALL speak to your comment here.
You used to read things. You don’t anymore. Or if you do you forget a lot more than you used to.
Maybe you have to; it sure looks like a very selective memory is what supporting Trump requires.
"Everybody is going to know the vote was involuntary."
His followers, and any Republicans with ambition, would simply deny this.
Tyrants who do this sort of thing do it when they ALREADY have unchallenged control of the military, and they want to add a superficial gloss of formal legitimacy to their de facto position. TRUMP wasn’t in a position to do this sort of thing!
Well there were discussions in the White House about martial law being invoked and used to redo elections in some states in late Dec 2020
Followed by every living SecyDefense writing a letter (presumably at least partially for the acting SecyDef to see) saying that the military should not be used to settle elections in early Jan (Jan 3 I think).
Followed by every JointChief issuing a letter to everyone in the armed forces on Jan12 saying that the election was over and Biden would be inaugurated. Because Trump was clearly NOT telling the military that a peaceful transition was in the cards.
So let's not pretend that Jan6 occurred in a vacuum with nothing military around it.
As an insurrection, it was hilariously doomed.
True. But still an insurrection. There’s no requirement that an insurrection not be hilariously doomed.
It fits well with Trump’s general chaos-agent strategy for everything. He doesn’t do airtight plans. This isn’t Trump’s Eleven. Instead he creates as much chaos as possible and looks for opportunities to exploit it.
Fortunately none cropped up. But imagine, for example, Pence had just disappeared… whisked away by Trump’s SS maybe. That would be a perfect situation for Trump to manipulate. Maybe he quickly appoints Eastman as VP so the count can continue. You can see how the opportunities for shenanigans multiply once the train is off the rails.
That doesn't make any sense as an analogy. The Reichstag fire involved the person in charge of the country blaming (probably falsely) his enemies for an attack and using that as a pretext to consolidate power. J6 involved the person in charge of the country using an actual attack by his supporters to try to seize power.
Yes. Why are you pretending that Trump would've repudiated anything?
Trump never conceded the election. Yes, failed coup attempts often boomerang against the plotters. But you can't use the fact that a coup attempt failed as proof that it wasn't actually a coup attempt. And there was no "replacing" political with physical pressure. They were working together.
Trump has never been charged with insurrection
He was charged with incitement to insurrection and a majority of both the House and Senate voted to find him guilty of that. This particular version of insurrection is about using partisanship (not secession) to undermine the Constitution. That partisanship makes it impossible to achieve the 2/3 vote to ever find anyone guilty of insurrection in order to remove them from office.
Which is precisely the problem Sec3 was intending to address. If you can't remove someone from office because of insurrection, then when CAN you remove an insurrectionist from office? Answer - you can't. Hence the clause in Sec3 that puts that power into the hands of Congress - not the judiciary. If there is even the taint of insurrection for a President-elect, then it takes a super-majority of Congress to remove that taint and certify the election of him/her as Prez. Like on Jan 6 2025.
That cannot occur via the judiciary - via some trial that finds him guilty - precisely because of what happened then. Lincoln's proposed pardons were opposed by Congress and Congress refused to seat delegations from Arkansas and Louisiana - and passed the Wade-Davis Bill of 1864. Lincoln vetoed that but was assassinated before anything further.
Johnson pardoned 12,500+ before June 1866 - which precludes the notion that the judiciary can be involved if the executive unilaterally decides that insurrection is ok/pardonable. THAT is why it had to be a constitutional amendment - not legislation - and why that power to 'remove a taint' had to be placed exclusively in Congress before assuming office. Which does make it very political and partisan a shitshow. But - it is what it is.
IMO the only questions for the Supreme Court is:
Do states have that ability to remove the taint for state office or potentially for a list of electors?
Is there anything that shall restrain Congress in determining what a taint of insurrection is?
There is no possibility imo however for states to remove Trump (if nom'd) from the general election ballot because that eliminates Congress' authority to decide that. Shouldn't matter for the Colorado stuff because a primary election is a non-federal party issue that doesn't involve 'office' at all.
Where does the NYTimes find such mediocre white dudes?? Do they scope out a Dave Matthews Band concert and try to pick out the guys they believe have the limpest dicks??
You always have So Much To Say.
After they had to fire Bill Kristol for lying too often and too obviously NYT did a serious search for a good conservative and good writer to replace Kristol. Douthat was the best they could find. NYT feels obligated to represent conservative views. It's not NYT's fault there wasn't anyone better to do so.
It's a misguided diversity endeavor (similar to one at the Washington Post). An editor figures 'we already have plenty of educated, modern, insightful, qualified writers, so let's get a few knuckle-draggers to opine from the superstitious, bigoted, half-educated populist perspective.'
Similar: Strong, mainstream law schools hiring a token clinger or two.
I'm available.
You're also barely literate. I mean the toughest thing you ever read was a blog post by Adler (according to you).
What do you think the NYT could do? Liz Cheney is an extreme conservative, who happens also to be a better institutionalist than Douthat. How do you suppose the Trump base would respond if the NYT hired Cheney to replace Douthat? Movement conservatism has no tolerance for principled conservatism, no matter how staunch.
That Mr. Douthat would concoct such a clearly disengenuous argument demonstrates how one can be a "devout" Catholic and yet happily serve the greatest criminal in American history. Mr. Douthat prates greatly regarding the "decadence" of our times. Well, it's hard to argue with him on that one.
Getting routed in the culture war has made Mr. Douthat cranky, disaffected, and increasingly desperate. His disdain for modern America -- and for reason, mainstream education, and progress -- makes him unpersuasive to all but the clingers.
I've never found Douthat to be cranky. He's always had a very even keel. He has a knack for translating "conservative crazy" into something that is almost understandable. He was an excellent interviewer when he was doing podcasts.
I enjoyed his book about his tick bite experience. For those that don't care to read the book, he appeared on c-span's InDepth program. That appearance is the perfect example of Douthat's no-drama style.
I think the author of the NYT article has it correct. The secessionist states didn't draft and ratify a new, Confederate Constitution under the belief that they were acting faithfully under the existing Constitution. In fact, the opposite was true--they wanted to subvert and re-constitute the existing constitutional order in a way that preserved their ability to own human beings. That is why the analogy to the Beer Hall Putsch tracks because both of them involved denying the legitimate authority of the existing system and instituting a new system in its place.
I think the people who argue that Jan. 6, 2021 was an "insurrection" are watering-down the definition of "violence" in much the same way that progressives are watering down that concept with the notion of "hate speech." An insurrection is a violent uprising--that means some (but not all) riots are insurrections, but intent matters just as much as the presence/absence of violence. Are the people claiming Jan. 6, 2021 was an insurrection also calling the BLM "protests" an insurrection? Did Seattle try the people who took over whole city blocks as "insurrectionists?"
I don't know that Washington State has a crime of insurrection, but there's pretty much agreement that the "autonomous zones" count as insurrections... not against the Constitution of the United States though. But yes, insurrection against the local authorities.
The CHOP folks rejected Federal legal authority. Therefore, anyone who supported CHOP, AT ANY POINT IN TIME, is disqualified from ALL federal offices. Except bring elected President, of course.
The CHOP folks rejected Federal legal authority.
What makes you say that? As far as I know they never rejected federal authority. Their beef was with the police. They rejected the jurisdiction of the local police.
They beat police, broke windows, forced open doors, and destroyed offices in order to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. What definition of "violence" are you operating under such that calling J6 an "insurrection" waters it down?
Probably because people who are really engaging in a Civil War, insurrection, Whiskey Rebellion, Beer Hall Putsch, etc use GUNS, not flagpoles and bear spray.
Not one of the Jan 6 rioters used guns, or even a knife. There was no actual method for them to take over anything by force.
And, yet, they did take over the Capitol for a brief time and delayed the counting of electoral votes. In the moment, Republicans were shaken enough that they acted on reality rather than political calculation and determined that they would finish the count as repudiation of the political violence.
Then they realized their supporters actually cheered J6, so they started pretending it was no big deal. The truth was when they feared for their lives and randos were stalking the halls of the Capitol looking for Pelosi and chanting about hanging Pence.
You can always play this game, because even if they had guns and used them, they were no match for combined Capitol police, Secret Service, etc., much less the US military. But the point of such violence is not to win a conventional battle/war. It’s to intimidate political leaders into acquiescing. And as events show, with so many Republicans now lauding J6 criminals as “hostages”, they came closer to success than you lot are willing to admit.
And that sets a very, very bad precedent which will only encourage future violence. Even more so if the next Republican president pardons them.
Sure they slightly delayed Congress, and sure they were trying to intimidate political leaders into acquiescing.
But you just described pretty much every riot by the left. We have seen Code Pink and anti-Kavanaugh protesters forcibly enter Congress and disrupt proceedings. We saw every major city in the US subject to BLM riots in 2020. Were all of those "insurrections"?
Stop being a hypocrite and only applying this ridiculous hyperbole to one side of the political aisle.
But you just described pretty much every riot by the left.
No.
We have seen Code Pink and anti-Kavanaugh protesters forcibly enter Congress and disrupt proceedings.
And some were arrested. Rightfully so. But what they weren’t doing was trying to forcibly prevent Congress from completing their constitutional task in an effort to stop the peaceful transfer of power and try to get the loser of the election declared the winner. The issue wasn’t “protestors were disruptive”, the question is what was their intent.
Code Pink protested and were disruptive, but they weren’t stalking the halls looking for members of Congress and saying they were going to hang Mike Pence. For you to pretend J6 was just another protest is ridiculous.
We saw every major city in the US subject to BLM riots in 2020.
Nope. What you saw were very large protests. You saw some people take advantage of the large gatherings to riot. You saw some other people take advantage of the gatherings to commit crimes like looting stores, etc. Conflating them all as one and the same is dishonest.
But none of them had the intent to force a transfer of power to their chosen leader. None of them had the intent or effect of delaying the process of peaceful transfer of power.
And, yes, it is absolutely true that some protestors on J6 were just protestors. But some were not and there is direct evidence of their intent on that day which is why some of them have been convicted of crimes of corruptly obstructing, influencing, or impeding an official proceeding, or attempting to do so and conspiracy to obstruct a congressional proceeding.
And their purpose in obstructing, influencing, or impeding an official proceeding was to “Stop the Steal” meaning install the loser. That was their avowed purpose and they did manage to delay the vote. It continued precisely because the members of Congress recognized that purpose and were resolute that day that they would not reward the attempt. Many have since gone soft, but the facts are the facts. The breach of the Capitol on January 6 was different in both intent and effect on the government from the protests that you mention.
You pretending otherwise is simply dishonest.
So, my understanding here is that the argument is it's not "violence" if there aren't guns or knives involved. Good to know.
…under the belief that they were acting faithfully under the existing Constitution…
Are you under the impression that the secessionists, or at least many of them, didn’t actually believe that they had the right, under the U.S. Constitution, to leave the Union? I believe they did. They were as wrong about that as the J6 rioters were about the election being stolen, but they did believe it.
Are the people claiming Jan. 6, 2021 was an insurrection also calling the BLM “protests” an insurrection?
No. Because, your scare-quotes notwithstanding, they were protests that were sometimes disrupted by unaffiliated violence. Moreover, the explicit aim was not to overthrow the federal government or otherwise impede the peaceful and constitutionally prescribed transfer of power, rather the protestors were advocating for police to uphold the constitution, for improved policies to be crafted and implemented so that everyone is treated fairly and equally under the law. These were pro-14th Amendment demonstrations as much as anything. They weren’t trying to violently force a change in leadership (or prevent a constitutionally prescribed change in leadership).
Did Seattle try the people who took over whole city blocks as “insurrectionists?”
No, but they don't have to be tried to be insurrectionists. Prosecutorial discretion being a thing and, as Randal points out, it's not clear Washington has an insurrection law. I assume many of them were tried for various crimes.
But the more relevant point is whether they fit the definition of insurrectionists. They do, as Randal and many, many other comments on these boards, including Ilya Somin’s posts, point out/conceded/conclude. In this case, the hypocrites seem all to be on the right: those who abhorred Seattle "autonomous zone" but laud, or at least excuse, J6. I haven’t seen anyone defending the Seattle “autonomous zone” people.
If and when someone who participated in imposing/maintaining the "autonomous zones" runs for state or federal office, disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 may become germane.
Until then, it is merely a red herring.
To the extent prosecutors gave the insurrectionists aid and comfort via the exercise of prosecutorial discretion, it's already germane, because those prosecutors hold positions subject to Section 3 disqualification.
prosecutors gave the insurrectionists aid and comfort via the exercise of prosecutorial discretion
Ahh so you found an insurrection at last! And shockingly not a false flag this time!
This idea of aid and comfort as not enough people going to jail is a very out there theory. Hard to prove, goes against the idea of ‘discretion,’ does not allow that that’s a legit deescalation tactic, the timeline doesn’t add up for when your putative insurrection occurred, and many more.
It also *didn’t happen*; plenty of people went to jail. As many on here have linked to.
A very quick Google myself:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-police-arrest-10-more-protesters-overnight/
In its Friday statement, the King County Prosecuting Attorney’s Office said it has not charged nonviolent protesters, “and we have no plans to do so. Our position hasn’t changed since the first protest in response to the murder of George Floyd.”
None of the CHOP-clearing arrests have led to criminal charges from the prosecutor’s office, the statement said. The office says it has charged 10 Seattle and Bellevue protest-related cases since May: six involving a gun charge, one a hate crime investigation and three burglary cases. During the time CHOP was active, charges were filed in three cases: a burglary case, a burglary and assault case, and a reckless burning case, according to the statement.
"To the extent prosecutors gave the insurrectionists aid and comfort via the exercise of prosecutorial discretion, it’s already germane, because those prosecutors hold positions subject to Section 3 disqualification."
That is batshit crazy, Brett.
It's true. They do use it as a red herring. Or a desperate attempt to say others are hypocrites. Which is why it's useful to point out that, no, not everyone is willing to justify everything done by someone "on their side".
Douthat confronts a daunting task -- attempting to persuade the educated, accomplished, reasoning, modern readership of The New York Times to be more hospitable to conservative thinking (intolerant, religious, backward, insular).
That he does not succeed is not his fault. That he is not paid based on results is likely to his bi-weekly credit.
I don't think he is trying to persuade, just translate. And he does a reasonable job. It's important to understand the yokel viewpoint, because they make up a sizable fraction of the population still.
Thank you for reading Rosas Douthat so I don't have to. I read to be entertained or to learn, and neither is going to happen with Douthat.
Are we seriously comparing the Jan 6 riots to the Civil War? This argument doesn't come close to passing the sniff test.
If you have your head as far up your own ass as Ilya it just might.
That is the argument that people *defending* Jan 06 are making - that it's not at the level of the Civil War so it doesn't count.
Lol. No one is defending 1/6. They're making the argument that you can't apply a clearly inapt Constitutional provision to something that was nowhere close to the Civil War. The Civil War lasted 4 years and killed nearly 2% of the US population at the time. Remind me, what were the similar numbers for 1/6? Yet again, you refuse to engage with the actual arguments people are making and instead set up your ridiculous strawmen.
"......these cases featured violence on roughly the same scale as the January 6 attack."
My goodness! It wasn't an "attack". It was a protest that got out of hand mainly due to the actions of LEOs and those of the Fed instigators. The protesters were not trying to "take" the Capitol. They wanted the challenges to the certification of the elections in several states heard. They had plane tickets to return home and weren't planning to stay.
"...mainly due to the actions of LEOs and those of the Fed instigators..."
For shame the LEOs and their squeezing themselves in doors til they couldn't breathe, repeatedly bashing flagpoles with their bodies, and having the temerity, when they could breathe, to inhale bear repellant. I see what you mean.
As for the Fed instigators, at least you recognize the culpability of Donald Trump. That's something at least.
There clearly was a contingent that intended to invade the Capitol. The problem is that it's pretty unambiguous that the FBI were involved with that contingent. The Proud Boys were absolutely lousy with government informants pushing the plot along, providing material aid and training, all with the aim of creating a predicate for arresting and shutting down the Proud Boys.
It's quite questionable whether anything violent would have happened on January 6th if the FBI hadn't gotten involved.
Informants are not agents, for the hundredth time.
There is zero evidence the FBI provided anything like material aid and training.
But yeah, you want to turn Jan 06 into an FBI op. I'll bed you'll do it should there be another eruption of right wing violence. And the one after that.
The revolution will be disavowed as a false flag op.
And for the hundredth time, I didn't say they were agents. So why do you keep contradicting something I didn't say, that happens to be utterly irrelevant? They had people in the Proud Boys working for them, does it matter that they weren't "agents"?
The fact is that these organizations are lousy with INFORMANTS, paid by the government, and pushing things along in a direction that will provide an excuse for shutting the organizations down.
The actions you speculate for the informants are the actions of agents, not informants.
They are also utterly unsupported by evidence.
Yes, the FBI calls their agent provocateurs "informants". This is news to you?
I'm sure Whitey Bulger says the same thing, the FBI made him do it.
You got evidence for that?
Because it sounds to me like you're taking informants, and speculating you bet they did other stuff based on nothing.
does it matter that they weren’t “agents”?
Ummm, yes.
pushing things along in a direction that will provide an excuse for shutting the organizations down
Cite needed.
The fact is the leadership of the Proud Boys and many of the members had bad intent all on their own. Deal with it.
Brett:
It’s quite questionable whether anything violent would have happened on January 6th if the FBI hadn’t gotten involved.
Do “conservatives” ever take personal responsibility?
It’s always somebody else made them do bad things.
These people aren't "conservatives". I say that as a libertarian who grew up in a proud conservative family and (used to) know quite a few actual conservatives. I didn't always agree with them, but I respected them.
These people are Alt-right nutjobs.
That's why I said "conservatives". They seem to think they are. They aren't. At all.
Fair point...
That's quite a lot of evidence-free bullshit, Brett.
A credible engineer would support their position.
Back in July, Katherine Mangu-Ward began a piece in this magazine by noting that "We're biased and blind and overconfident. We're bad at paying attention and terrible at remembering. We're prone to constructing self-serving narratives after the fact; worse, we often convince ourselves they are true. We're slightly better at identifying these distortions in others than we are in our own thinking, but not by much. And we tend to attribute others' mistakes to malice, even as we attribute our own to well-intentioned error."
Profesor Somin is no exception to that characterization and has a habit of offering definitions (and non-defining definitions). See, for example, the post of 2.26.2015 3:16 PM in response to an attempt to non-define "libertarian."
Having said that, I agree with Professor Somin in his assessment that "the original targets of Section 3 weren't insurrectionists." The Constitution is not a suicide pact and the nation which established itself as the Confederate States of America was entitled to full recognition. Most honest historians and non-partisan political scientists agree. Yet there remains a pocket of the Academy which is intellectually dishonest, full of partisan bias, and, worse, convinced that its self-procaimed moral superiority empowers it to, like a now-former MIT professor, compromise the rights of others when evalgelizing and striving towards global achievement of self-set goals.
Pharoah Lincoln was part of that intellectually dishonest set and used the term "insurrection" to side-step the scrutiny which would have arisen had the term "war" been applied to the violence he instigated. And we're not stuck with the definition he offered and the Court embraced.
Douthat's definition of "insurrectionary event" includes two elements: first, an "outright denial of the authority of the existing political order" and, second, an "attempt to establish some alternative order in its place." I commend Douthat in recognizing that an "insurrectionary event" is a required element of an "insurrection," just as an "act of genocide" is required as part of a "genocide." [Just ask Israel about that distinction... or re-watch West Wing and listen to C.J. Cregg in Season 4 Episode 15.] I generally agree with Dothat's first element in that an insurrectionary event must be a happening which genuinely _prohibits_ the authority of the existing political order; that is, an insurrectionary event is a happening which cannot be delt with by police forces and the courts. I am unconvinced that the second element is necessary; that is, I believe that an insurrectionary event can occur even when there is no attempt to establish an alternative order.
Note that we do not call all Israelis insurrectionists of the Levant, even though Israelis met Douthat's criteria by denying the authority of the existing political order and attempting -- successfully, might I add -- to establish some alternative order in its place. So, there must be something more to the definition of "insurrection" than simply a series of one or more related insurrectionary events. It is reasonable to attempt to complete the definition... and that definition must necessarily include some elements which raise the fur of those of every political stripe.
[continuing] I am unconvinced that physical violence is a necessary part of the definition. Warfare -- and insurrection is warfare -- need not be violent: a blockade, for example, is defined as non-violent act of warfare, just as is the sort of non-violent invasion Hitler undertook in Austria. Non-violent acts of warfare seem also to include the deliberate, hostile dissemination of mis- and dis-information ("information warfare") and the meddling in the banking affairs of an adverary.
Taking the last first, we can look to Biden and his tendency to combat an adversary via economic sanctions and "fund freezing" -- which are nothing more than blockades accomplished using bankers rather than soldiers or sailors. Or is Biden simply a diddler... not seeking to defeat Russia? Stepping back, we can look to Madame Hillary and ask ourselves if her deliberate, hostile dissemination of mis- and dis-information was an insurrectionary act: while non-violent, the act was certainly crafted to deny authority of the existing political order and to supplant it with an alternative. Or was Hillary simply a dimwitted blonde... not seeking to install herself as Babinton's Queen? Hitler and Kennedy examplify the final two steps.
So, an act of warfare, even if non-violent, seems to be a part of the definition. But so does identifiable leadership, recognizable target, and non-success. And someone must care enough to do something in response... that "someone" being in authority to make such response.
In our system, only the Executive Branch has the capability and authority to respond to an insurrectionary event, so an insurrectionary event exists only when the Executive Branch says it does. If Congress disagrees, it may modify the Executive Branch via impeachment.
There was no impeachment on January 7... and two previous impeachment attempts were unsuccessful.
The popular mantra, "the Constitution isn't a suicide pact", is an interesting one. It implies that the Constitution could legitimately be used to justify any manner of injustice, so long as the only alternative is "suicide".
Frankly, I'd prefer the suicide option. Then we could start over.
The phrase, "the Constitution isn't a suicide pact" is actually kind of paradoxical. It's generally invoked by people who really mean, "The Constitution, if interpreted the way you propose, would be a suicide pact. And so, if that's what it means, we should treat it like a suicide pact, and violate it."
The proper rejoinder to the invocation of this phrase is just to say, "Following the Constitution wouldn't be suicidal, so let's obey it."
The legal argument is that where there is ambiguity, and one interpretation would wreck the Republic, the other one was probably intended.
But yeah, some people use it to mean a speculative crisis in their own minds is sufficient to ignore the Constitution.
No guesses which party has more people that think there's an existential threat to the Republic right now.
Your ability to confidently misinterpret the reality which surrounds you never ceases to amaze me, Brett.
From Justice Jackson's dissent in the 1949 case of Terminiello v. Chicago, to Justice Goldberg's 1963 opinion in Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez, to the present day, the phrase has always been used as a way of justifying the courts' employing a "loose" interpretation of the Constitution as a way of saving the Constitution from itself, not as a justification for "violating it".
Your preferred interpretation is (surprise, surprise) to pretend that there's no conflict there to "justify"...
"Note that we do not call all Israelis insurrectionists of the Levant, even though Israelis met Douthat’s criteria by denying the authority of the existing political order and attempting — successfully, might I add — to establish some alternative order in its place."
"Treason doth never prosper; What's the reason?
If treason doth prosper, none dare call it treason."
They're not called insurrectionists because they won.
At the risk of feeding the troll, Lincoln didn't have to use the word “war” because Confederate Secretary of War Leroy Walker already did:
That was on April 12. Lincoln responded on April 15:
The notion that Lincoln called the rebellion as an “insurrection” appears to be something that “mydisplayname” made up.
What's it called when Person 1 says "A is X," and Person 2 responds by saying, "I agree with Person 1 that A is not X"? It's more than lying, but it's not exactly gaslighting.
"an insurrectionary event exists only when the Executive Branch says it does"
No. Under our system is Congress that defines what an insurrection is. And its clear to me that Congress when they crafted section 3 considered the Civil War an insurrection. Its not so clear to me that Jan. 6th was, that's why we have juries.
Perhaps the last Congress could have passed a.resolution or legislation declaring Jan. 6th an insurrection, they didn't. We can be sure this Congress will not.
And Section 5 gave Congress the power to enforce Section 3 by appropriate legislation.
Its the executives responsibility to faithfully execute the laws.
Kazinski, does it trouble you that 18 U.S.C. § 2383 contains no definition of "insurrection"?
I mean, it's not like a trial judge can instruct the jury on the meaning of a term that is undefined by statute.
"The problem with Douthat's reasoning is that it implies the Confederates who were the original targets of Section 3 weren't insurrectionists either! Far from rejecting the Constitution and "denying the authority of the existing political order," they argued the Constitution gave their states a legal right to secede, and that Abraham Lincoln and the federal government were the ones acting illegally."
And, no matter how horrible their motives for seceding were, they had as good a case for their right to do it, as Lincoln had for their not having such a right.
The Confederacy didn't lose a reasoned argument, by having a poor case. They lost a WAR, by having an inadequate industrial base. That doesn't mean they were legally wrong, it just means that once bullets start flying, being legally right was irrelevant.
Not impressed, if you think this is actually an argument. It's not an argument unless you're suggesting shooting anybody who disputes that January 6th was an insurrection.
Even if there was a legal argument for secession (it requires interpreting a lot of ambiguities one particular way and ignoring the Supremacy Clause), the South lost that legal case, the war, the subsequent peace, any and all moral arguments.
They lost in every way that matters.
They didn't lose Brett Bellmore. Who does not matter.
I think where Ilya fails here is that he is considering the act of secession his point of comparison.
If the Union army had vacated Sumter then we might not have had a Civil War at all. The entire calculus changed when the Confederate army fired upon the fort.
The insurrection was the war, not the secession.
Bingo bango!
Iyla is STILL stupid -- news at 11
Prof Somin, you are not meeting Douthat's argument. The issue is not whether someone thinks what they are doing is lawful or not. The issue is that what separates a riot from an insurrection is the intention to throw off the authority of the current government, or in the specific case of the 14th Amendment, the Constitution.
The Confederates of 1861 clearly qualify -- by leaving the United States, they wanted to make the US Constitution inapplicable in the South. They were, quite literally, denying its authority, or at least its continued authority. Had secession succeeded, then the government of the United States would have no more authority in the Southern States; they would not have to listen to the Supreme Court; Congress could not pass laws that applied there nor collect taxes there; the President could not order troops there. That they mistakenly believed this was permitted by the Constitution is neither here nor there -- they wanted to throw off the yoke of the US Constitution. That's an insurrection.
Trump and his cohorts, OTOH, wanted to install him as president in the mistaken belief (or, in his case, his cynical, lying manipulation) that he won the 2020 election. The Constitution would still be applicable to him -- had he succeeded, he would hold the office of president, with all its Constitutional limitations. He would still need Congress to, for example, raise taxes and appropriate money. And he would still be answerable to the courts, ultimately SCOTUS. Most importantly, he would leave office four years later.
So WADR, you are not meeting Douthat's argument, but substituting an "ignorance of the law is no excuse" straw man.
By analogy, suppose someone gets a mob together and breaks into Fort Knox to steal some gold. That is clearly a federal crime, but it's not an insurrection. The person is not trying to deny the authority of the government or the Constitution, just take something that is not his. That's what Trump did.
Bored Lawyer is right. The secessionists of 1861 were insurrectionists. They sought (by force) to overthrow the authority of the United States in territory of the United States, and to impose their authority on citizens of the United States. That they did not seek to overthrow that authority in all territory or impose their authority on all citizens of the United States does not matter.
President Lincoln proclaimed a state of rebellion only after the insurrectionists mustered tens of thousands of troops, seized numerous Federal forts and arsenals at gunpoint, and fired cannon at a fort which resisted seizure.
And Somin's assertion that claiming a "constitutional" right of state secession somehow made the secessionists' actions "constitutional" rather than insurrectionary is laughable.
Yep. This is probably Ilya's worst article on the topic yet. I say "probably" only because he's had so many bad ones.
Give it up Illlya. It was a simple riot. The rioters did not seek to take control of the powers of government.
You look so dumb trying to justify this.