The Volokh Conspiracy
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Maine and Michigan Issue Rulings on Trump and Section 3 Disqualification
Maine's Secretary of State ruled that Trump is ineligible for the presidency. The Michigan Supreme Court refused to reconsider a lower court ruling allowing Trump to remain on the GOP primary ballot, because state law doesn't limit primary ballot access to allow only candidates eligible for the office they seek.

Over the last two days, the states of Maine and Michigan have issued rulings on challenges to Donald Trump's eligibility to run for the presidency, under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Maine Secretary of State Shenna Bellows (a Democrat) ruled that Trump is disqualified from being a candidate in the state's GOP presidential primary. Meanwhile, the Michigan Supreme Court refused to reconsider lower court rulings holding that Trump cannot be removed from the state's primary ballot because state law doesn't require primary candidates to be legally eligible for the office they seek election to.
The Maine decision is the more significant of the two, because it actually reaches the merits of the Section 3 issue. Secretary Bellows' ruling is similar to the recent Colorado Supreme Court decision on the same subject. Like the Colorado court, Bellows concludes that the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol was an insurrection (an easy call, in my view), that Trump's activities amounted to "engaging" in that insurrection (I think this is the hardest issue at stake), that the president is an "officer of the United States" covered by Section 3 (another easy issue), that Trump's activities were not protected by the First Amendment, and that Section 3 is "self-executing" and thus states can enforce it without additional congressional legislation. Like the Colorado Supreme Court, Bellows also concludes that the laws of her state require candidates whose names appear on primary ballots to be eligible for the office they seek.
I won't review Bellows' reasoning in detail. But, as already noted, it is largely similar to that of the Colorado Supreme Court decision, which I analyzed at some length here. I think the Colorado ruling is correct, and therefore Bellows' decision is sound, as well. As Bellows notes, her ruling is subject to review by state courts and - ultimately - the US Supreme Court.
Bellows' ruling also addresses a number of evidentiary issues, which I will not try to assess, but which can potentially be reviewed by state courts. In addition, she rejects a clever but ultimately frivolous argument that Trump is disqualified from running for president under the Twenty-Second Amendment, which bars people who have already served two terms. The plaintiff alleged Trump is ineligible under that Amendment because he claims he won the 2020 election; if so, Trump has already had a second term as president, and therefore can't run in 2024! Bellows rightly notes that "Application of the term limit turns on whether an individual has actually been elected President twice, not on beliefs or assertions about that fact…. That Mr. Trump has falsely asserted that he
won the 2020 election is no more disqualifying than it would be for him to proclaim that he is not a United States citizen."
Coming on the heels of the Colorado ruling, the Maine decision (especially if upheld by state courts), makes it more likely that additional states will disqualify Trump. That, in turn, makes it more likely the Colorado decision will be reviewed by the US Supreme Court (the Colorado GOP has already asked the Court to take the case). If the federal Supreme Court doesn't definitively resolve the issue, we are likely to end up with a situation where Trump is barred from the ballot in some states, but not others.
The Michigan Supreme Court ruling is a denial of a petition to review lower court decisions that held Trump cannot be excluded from the GOP primary ballot because - unlike in Colorado and Maine - candidates who appear on state primary ballots need not be constitutionally eligible for the office they seek. The lower court and the Supreme Court leave open the possibility that Trump can be barred from the general election ballot, should he win the Republican nomination.
Significantly, neither the lower courts nor the Supreme Court addressed the issues of whether Trump is disqualified from holding office under Section 3. The lower courts simply concluded they need not consider that question, because Trump cannot be barred from the primary ballot regardless of whether he is ineligible to become president, or not. The Supreme Court chose not to review those rulings.
There is a dissent to the denial of the right to appeal by Justice Elizabeth Welch. Some commentators have wrongly assumed this dissent represents the opinion of the Court. But it is actually just a statement of one justice's reasons explaining why she would have preferred for the state Supreme Court to review the case and issue a decision, as opposed to simply leaving lower court rulings in place by denying the plaintiffs the right to appeal.
We cannot assume the other justices necessarily agree with Justice Welch's reasoning. But, to the extent it matters, she writes that she would have affirmed the lower court ruling on the grounds that Michigan state law (which she carefully differentiates from the Colorado law relied on by that state's Supreme Court) doesn't bar constitutionally ineligible candidates from primary ballots. She also notes she "would affirm the Court of Appeals' ruling…, which still allows appellants to renew their legal efforts as to the Michigan general election later in 2024 should Trump become the Republican nominee for President of the United States or seek such office as an independent candidate."
I did a more detailed overview of the legal, moral, and political issues at stake in the Section 3 litigation in this article. In a more recent post, I explained why Section 3 disqualification doesn't require a prior criminal conviction for insurrection.
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Trump is anti-democracy wanting the Electoral College to decide elections and if they don’t vote in his favor he wants Congress to decide. So if Trump truly believed he could win the popular vote he could make a deal with Biden to have the popular vote decide the election and Trump wouldn’t have to spend so much time in crapholes like Wisconsin and Michigan.
That pesky Constitution requires the electoral college to decide. Of course the Democrats don't believe that they can beat Trump in an honest election so that is why they are trying to disqualify him from the ballot. They don't believe that the voters should decide.
Which Republican candidate do you suppose the Democrats would prefer Biden to run against, exactly - especially after Trump gets disqualified?
Does it matter? Part of what they are hoping for is that many Trump supporters stay home out of anger over these abuses of power.
They aren't protecting democracy. They are abusing power because they fear Trump will win and that he will then treat them the same way that they are treating him.
Yes, it does matter. The whole theory is that the Democrats have some grand scheme for Biden to win re-election if Trump gets kicked off the ballot. But no one really thinks he does much better in a head-to-head with any of the other Republican candidates; Democrats want Trump to run. It helps them up and down the ballot.
If you think MAGA will stay home if Trump gets disqualified, over "anger over these abuses of power," you evidently have less respect for their intelligence than I do.
Ah, but consider: What if they only manage to knock him off the ballot in a few states, where he had some chance of getting EC votes? Like Maine...
That improves their chances quite a bit. Both by improving their chances in those states, and by guaranteeing that Trump can't get them.
And maybe nobody gets a majority, and they send it to the House? If they can arrange for the votes in the House delegations to be by secret ballot, Trump could easily lose in states the Republicans dominate, because establishment Republicans do NOT like him, they're just afraid of their voters.
Lindsey Graham is very obviously fine with Biden winning in 2024…NATO expansion was more important to John McCain than invading Iraq and Iran. So he is endorsing Trump because he doesn’t think it is worth it to lose his seat for DeSantis or Haley.
You're overlooking the fact that a Republican-majority House can choose any of the top five candidates, if none get a majority of the electoral votes. All they need is a candidate on the ballot who can beat Biden in a few states. Haley could probably manage that.
That is, if the Republicans were somehow in a conspiracy to re-elect Biden, which is one of the nuttier theories I've seen you espouse.
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Three, not five.
Ah, yes. I was hasty and didn't double-check the amendment. Duly noted.
"If they can arrange for the votes in the House delegations to be by secret ballot, Trump could easily lose in states the Republicans dominate, because establishment Republicans do NOT like him, they’re just afraid of their voters."
Either the other GOP members name the GOP members who didn't vote for the GOP candidate, or the voters would throw them all out.
No it doesn't matter. The Democrats fear Trump so they are using very undemocratic methods to remove him as a candidate. They don't fear the other Republican candidates because they don't expect most of them to be able to accomplish anything even if they were to win.
And it wouldn't take many people to decide that the election process has become so corrupt that they refuse to participate and provide legitimacy to swing a close election. That thinking would be exacerbated if the Republican candidate only received the nomination if it is because Trump was removed from enough states that he couldn't win.
Of course you will approve because ORANGE MAN BAD and that is all you really need to justify these undemocratic methods.
Don't put words in my mouth.
I don't think Trump should be allowed anywhere near the White House, but I believe in democracy and the democratic process. I would rather beat him at the ballot box, and if me and my like can't manage to do that, well... so be it. That's the democratic game. I believe in it, still, even if most of you Trump supporters would prefer not to play it any more.
Like I said, if Trump voters choose to boycott the election because Trump gets kicked off some ballots, that's on them. That's the choice they're making, and they'll have to live with the consequences, the same way leftists threatening to boycott Biden over Gaza will.
The irony is - when voting blocs in other countries boycott elections, the point is to send a signal to the international community that something is deeply wrong in their country. But that's an international community your lot has nothing but contempt for. No one will sanction the US for re-electing Biden after Trump is disqualified from running. And Trump will have only himself to blame, for that international contempt.
All of which is kind of beside the point. This is a tempest in a teapot. The Supreme Court will swoop in and settle the question, as always, and you'll all be allowed to cast your idiotic votes for your moron-in-chief. Take a breath and let the process run.
They don’t fear the other Republican candidates because they don’t expect most of them to be able to accomplish anything even if they were to win.
^^^^THIS^^^^
ALL the rest of the Republican candidates will allow the DC swamp to function as it desires.
Trump now knows how to function in DC. That knowledge is equivalent to a political nuclear bomb to the status quo.
"Let's replace the DC swamp with a super-charged form of corruption centered on Trump's interests and whims."
Simon, your just wish casting.
Trump served for 4 years. Not a single sign of the actions you claim you fear.
Besides, when Obama/Biden actually takes action you fear, you celebrate.
How many Biden cabinet officials have had to resign after corruption scandals? How many hotels in DC does Biden have an economic interest in? How many Biden cabinet officials are likely to go back into the private sector doing business with foreign governments they're currently in a position to do favors for? How many fraudsters has Biden pardoned?
You're the one doing the "wish-casting," and have a very poor recollection of all the scandals and plain illegality that rocked the Trump White House.
The idea that an "academic" and "legal" blog -- let alone one that misappropriates the franchises of several strong, mainstream law schools -- could attract this many disaffected, delusional, poorly informed followers is remarkable.
That the faux libertarian, right-wing professors who operate this blog would court these antisocial, roundly bigoted, belligerently ignorant, un-American culture war casualties as a target audience is more striking.
How much longer should better schools permit their reputations to be diminished by association with this blog?
UCLA no longer needs to consider or answer that question.
Simon you failed to name a single scandal
The Hotel? Investigated and found perfectly ethical.
The rest? Nothing that has not been going on for over 100 years
Bidens DoJ is a cesspit of corruption. They let hunters tax crimes toll. Tried pull a fast one on a plea deal. Thinking the DoJ is going to investigate any Dem is a fools conclusion
The Obama Biden administration launched a baseless counter intel investigation. (not enough evidence to get warrants for criminal investigation, so they corrupt the FISA court)
I'm loving how the Left needs to protect all of the norms that we have by shattering the norms that we have.
The things is, Trump did a lot of things no President has done before. Most all of it bad.
So all this talk of double standards and norms breaking is nonsense.
SOOO many things you forgot to mention any.
maybe the Muslim ban? Exactly the same nations Obama targeted?
This entire OP Is about one of them.
Also the fake electors. Also the strong-arming governors. Also the Kraken lawsuits.
Not fake electors, alternate electors, Dems were the first to suggest this
Trump has no power to strong arm governors
Trump never filed a single lawsuit. Lawyers were the ones saying the law suits would work.
The Constitution places limits on who can be President: must be 35, must be natural-born, must not have engaged in insurrection after having taken an oath as an officer of the US, etc... It may be political advantageous for one side to point out when the other side's candidate fails to meet those basic requirements and even fight to keep that candidate off the ballot for that failure. But, if the candidate doesn't meet those requirements, then that's the end of the story.
Let's turn this around: the Democrats nominate somebody who the Republicans don't like and, it turns out, that there's a question about whether the candidate is actually a natural-born citizen. Would Republican efforts to remove that candidate from the ballot constitute an "abuse of power"?
I don’t know, when people were trying to challenge whether Obama met the natural-born citizen requirement, they weren’t exactly greeted as stalwart defenders of the Constitution. I said then that even though the birth certificate angle was stupid, there still needed to be a proper way to challenge a candidate for meeting those qualifications. The courts could’ve taken the opportunity to establish that procedure under a challenge everyone knew wasn’t going to win, and then it would’ve been in place now. But no one was allowed to even bring it up. Now because Trump Bad, there’s suddenly a move to be able to challenge the constitutional qualifications.
"But no one was allowed to even bring it up." Are you trying to tell me that the cottage industry of birtherism was just a figment of my imagination?
Or is it that nobody bothered to bring it up in *an actual court of law* because they would lose in a spectacular manner?
Many plaintiffs did attempt to litigate whether President Obama is a natural born citizen. AFAIK all such lawsuits were dismissed at the pleading stage for the plaintiffs' lack of Article III standing.
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Orly Taitz: not gone, but forgotten.
I don't think this is actually about winning the 2024 election, so far as the Democrats are concerned, though if it contributes to that they'll be happy. Rather, Trump has in some sense become their Orange Whale, they can't NOT continue to hound him.
As much as they've portrayed him as a monster, how can they leave him be? It would amount to admitting that they've been lying about him being a monster. Because you don't leave monsters be.
That is part of it but they truly do fear him because they know after the way they have treated him he would be entirely justified in responding in kind. They also fear that as part of his retribution he will actively seek to destroy all of the policies that they have spent building up for years and fire huge numbers of partisan federal employees making their ability to accomplish anything minimal.
There is an element of that, yeah. If DeSantis became President, they might not like his policies, but he'd largely be a conventional President. Wrongfully, I think: It would fail to appreciate how far things have gone.
If Trump gets a 2nd term, he will likely devote it to proving that payback is a bitch. With the enthusiastic support of Republican voters.
DeSantis has proven to be another George W Bush that is poll driven and goes with the flow of the right wing echo chamber. Trump actually promoted the boosters while DeSantis’ attacking of public health offices in 2021 led to around 20,000 unnecessary deaths.
"Payback" for... what, exactly?
It's funny - I keep asking MAGA commenters this question. What has Biden done that's so bad? Apart from some sputtering over letting the DOJ prosecute Trump for plain violations of federal law, they're never very clear.
You want to argue that Biden has mismanaged the economy? Let immigration go unchecked? Okay, sure. But "payback"? For what? Do you want Trump to bulldoze midtown Manhattan and build a camp for migrants awaiting deportation? Do you want him to jail journalists who wrote mean things about him? Do you want the military to mow down people who block highways in protest? What the fuck are you on about?
Most Republicans hate the Bushes but they still hate the people that dared to run against the Bushes.
You mean outside of the domestic spying on his admin?
The military lying about troop levels to deny his request to pull troops from needless locations (which would be rank insubordination, mind you)?
Summarized, the question was: “Payback” for… what, exactly?...What has Biden done that’s so bad?"
Are you referring to domestic spying on Biden's admin? The military lying about troop levels to deny Biden's request to pull troops from needless locations?
Or is your sputtering of that unrelated MAGA dogma intended to reference the Trump Administration? Because Biden was a private citizen with no governmental powers during that time.
"If Trump gets a 2nd term, he will likely devote it to proving that payback is a bitch. With the enthusiastic support of Republican voters."
And that would be bad, because???
It's been 40 years since Reagan, 70 years since Eisenhower and it's time for a correction.
You're projecting again, Brett. Democrats, by and large, are content to move on from Trump, and are more confident in competing against him than against anyone else. It's the never-Trumpers in the Republican party who want to find a way to knock him out of the race without getting blamed for it. They've been trying to do that ever since the first impeachment.
Right, it's just coincidence that they're somehow working through Democrats to do it.
A lot of Trump’s top advisors warned him that is actions could get him “indicted”…and now he’s been an indicted and not one of them said he heeded their advice.
The whole "disqualification" theory started getting major play only when some never-Trumper conservatives scholars started floating it. It is likewise primarily Republican voters bringing these challenges in Colorado, Michigan, and Maine. Do you suppose it's a coincidence we're not hearing about these challenges in red states?
You'll recall - or perhaps you closed your mind to it - that Republicans in Congress were all too happy for the Democrats to impeach Trump. They couldn't be seen to be supporting that effort. But that's how McConnell hoped to be rid of Trump. Same thing with these criminal prosecutions.
You are being played.
Trump appointed Rodentstain….who then appointed Mueller. But Bush Republicans lost interest in removing Trump once he appointed Bush lackeys like Tillerson and Kavanaugh and Wray and even Bolton. Wtf???
Simple Simon,
So much for the edit -- the woman in Maine is a fringe-left DEMOCRAT.
???
The Maine Legislature picks the Secretary of State -- here's who they picked: Shenna Bellows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenna_Bellows
These are Republican lawsuits, Brett. Dems seem split on what they want SCOTUS to do.
Quit with the telepathy.
S_0,
That is at best a grossly misleading statement comparing chickens with pigs, and all just to argue with Brett.
These lawsuits are by Republicans. Brett: "they’re somehow working through Democrats to do it."
You once again failed to read what I was replying to.
The Colorado lawsuit was spearheaded by CREW, which is a left wing organization. They got four Republicans and two unaffiliated voters to "sign on" because that was the only way they could get standing. Two of those Republicans have since become Democrats.
CREW is acting more anti-Trump than pro-Democrat here, eh? I know a lot of the more culty folks around here like to equate anti-Trump with liberalism, but that's nonsense.
And it ignores all the places where attempts failed: Minnesota, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Michigan, Florida.
Dems are split on this, in fact. This is a Republican effort.
Let's assume Donald "Lock her up!" Trump is anti-democracy in some important sense. That sentence pretty much covers it.
Shall we engage in further anti-democracy behaviors to git 'im?
I find it hard to believe the intent is to let a handful of states knock a candidate off the ballot. Would you accept states doubting age requirements? And don't give me crap about full faith and credit.
Would you accept a handful of purple states balking on that? When many other states, and, apparently, a lazy federal government, don't have a problem with it for one reason or another, it's ok for a handful of states to decide the course of the nation?
God damn. Now there's a case of We Love Democracy. Until We Don't.
You're doing a bait-and-switch about what democracy is.
Trump is against our republic as a civic institution.
You're next talking about democracy as popular rule. But we are not a democracy as popular rule - do preexisting eligibility criteria like age and natural born citizen make us not a democracy?
Trump is anti-democracy in some important sense. That sentence pretty much covers it.
So important you cant identify even one.
You failed to mention, very early in Trumps term he declared he was refusing to indict Hillary. ie, Trump refused to do what Biden has spent 3 years pursuing. And not just Trump. He has unleashed all the agencies to harass conservative people and ideas.
Trump has told us he'll be a dictator; he has laid out plans to remake the civil service based around personal loyalty to him.
He also tried to overturn an election.
You hate the swamp [for unidentified reasons] so much you will burn down the republic to destroy it. Tools like you with more anger than facts are how authoritarians gain power for centuries.
No. He didn't. Please give a time and dated quote where Trump said he'd be a dictator.
Trump tried to overturn an election by accusing people of fraud. Elections aren't blindly accepted. If the election is damaged by fraud you do it over. Trump had a lot of accusations that turned out to be wrong.
The biggest fearmongering about Trump was that he would cancel elections, and yet here we are with the Democratic party ACTUALLY CANCELLING ELECTIONS, and somehow it's not only okay but good?
That's what gets to me. Banning opposing candidates is as anti-democracy as you can get, and yet people still say they are "defending Democracy". I guess in the Vietnam sense of burning down a village to save it.
Trump said as much on December 5.
Trump tried to overturn the election in quite a few different ways, false accusations of fraud being only one of them.
The court cases are brought by Republicans. And don't involve cancelling elections.
You're missing a lot of facts. Did you just wake up from a coma after your Thanksgiving meal?
Banning opposition candidates *for illegitimate reasons* is anti-democratic. You're begging the question without realizing it.
Donald Trump was asked if he will be a dictator if reelected. Here’s what he said.
As an example of his perfidy:
"And in a Truth Social post, Trump implied that former Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mark Milley should be executed for treason. Trump criticized Milley, a U.S. Army general, for calling his Chinese counterpart to reassure him after the Jan. 6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol. Trump wrote on the social media platform that it was "an act so egregious that, in times gone by, the punishment would have been DEATH." "
The thing is, Milley literally assured the Chinese government that, if his own government planned an attack on them, he'd warn them. If he did that, that would be textbook treason. It's not even a close thing.
Trump said he would be a dictator on the first day. He did not seem to be joking, and Hannity about had an aneurism trying to walk him back.
And you still support him.
Whatever collateral other beef you have is a deflection at best.
Trump said he would be a dictator on the first day.
You have to leave words and context out. Shorter, you are forced to lie because the facts don't support your fantasy
Trump was asked about those accusing him of wanting to be a dictator. He answered no. The corrected him self and said ONLY for the first day . . . to reverse Biden's Border disaster, and one other thing.
Even that was Sarcasm. Something you know, but are forced to pretend you dont.
The corrected him self and said ONLY for the first day
You're so into authoritarianism, you think this is a defense of Trump.
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The thing is, Milley literally did no such thing.
"aid out plans to remake the civil service based"
What he says and what is possible from any POTUS to do are orders of magnitude different.
But if all you are saying is that the Orange Clown is an asshole, I agree with you.
It's OK he's going to *try* and be a dictator, because our Republican institutions will stop him.
That's not how this shit works - he's going up against our institutions and I don't much want to stress test them, especially with lackadaisical attitudes like your comment here.
Freedom requires vigilance, not resting on our laurels.
Biden IS being a dictator (how many times has he ignored SCOTUS about student loans) and the institutions SIDE with him.
Which is why civil service needs to end. The bureaucracy should not be a fourth branch of the government. And I still dispute that the Congress should have any control over how the Executive branch hires and fires people.
Seperate branches and all.
He didn't ignore the SCOTUS about student loans. They said it wasn't legal under law A so he's trying law B.
civil service needs to end
The unitary executive turns out to be not originalist.
I do like how saying that the entire administrative state should be loyal directly to the President is the *anti*-dictatorship stance.
You're an authoritarian, and not a very well-informed one.
I do like how saying that the entire administrative state should be loyal directly to the President
As General Miley demonstrated. Loyalty is not the test. Chain of command is the test. Miley should have been Shot at sunrise after a court-martial for Treason.
The President controls those agencies. NOT the civil servents.
You sure are blood thirsty!
How many people do you want Trump to shoot on day 1, the ONLY day he'd be dictator?
" with lackadaisical attitudes like your comment here. "
Since you want to be insulting, I'll note that your fears are gross hysteria
As opposed to FDR & LBJ who remade the civil service around them via massive expansion?
"Dictatorship" is unelected bureaucrats who are answerable only to themselves.
Nobody fucking cares about LBJ and FDR in this context; it was a different administrative state. The lessons to learn from that history are not binding precedent.
Neither of them looked for personal loyalty in their civil servants.
'he declared he was refusing to indict Hillary.'
That is to say, he couldn't. Because it turns out the president can't set the DOJ on his enemies.
Biden set the DoJ an his enemies.
Biden sicked the DoJ on Parents going to school board meetings.
Just because the NYT and msnbc dont report something does not mean it did not happen
If you don't go to the NYT, what are your sources?
He did no such thing.
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Biden spent 3 years pursuing an indictment of Hillary? What are you talking about?
'Shall we engage in further anti-democracy behaviors to git ‘im?'
No. Good thing they're not.
Shenna Bellows was a Biden Elector.
IF she were an attorney -- and she isn't -- when would conflict of interest come in?
She doesn't indicate a burden of proof, that I can see. Did I miss it?
At page 26 the Secretary specifies that the preponderance of evidence standard applies. https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/43d0ba1e-a980-406b-b36d-baaac72de633.pdf?itid=lk_inline_manual_10&itid=lk_inline_manual_5
There's a preponderance of evidence that Brandon, in executing the withdrawal from Afghanistan, left behind American weapons and equipment for the Taliban.
Why didn't this bitch kick Brandon off the ballot?
There's a preponderance of evidence that Cuntala raised bail money for insurrectionists.
Why didn't she kick Cuntala off the ballot?
And what law allows her to even do this? Why can't a Marine use the preponderance of evidence standard to overthrow Brandon and Cuntala? Isn't the 14th Amendment superior to laws against mutiny?
Listen, Crazy Z - bring a challenge. All of these cases you're hearing about are initiated by voters trying to get Trump off their own ballots. You think you have an argument? Go hire a lawyer and go to court. That's all you need to do.
It'll be easier if you're a registered Democrat, though.
Not perfectly executing a withdrawal from a foreign conflict is not a disqualifying act under the Constitution.
Doing an attempted coup is.
Writing about attempted coups...
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
Barack Obama and Joe Biden actively participated in the scheme, as McCarthy’s last paragraph above reminds us. This was genuinely impeachable conduct, far, far worse than the contrived grounds for Trump’s two impeachments.
This is an opinion from a random blog. It is not an authority anyone needs to listen to.
It says being briefed that Trump was being investigated for working with Russia is participation in a scheme. It is very silly.
There is nothing silly about it.
Yes, actually; I read the personal and histrionic take. It may be to your taste, but it's pure opinion and rhetoric.
And it's *stupid*. It says being briefed that Trump was being investigated for working with Russia is participation in a scheme. that's not just not how it works legally, that's not how it works in the English language.
I don't like Shillary much either, but is the vulgarity necessary?
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Prof. Volokh sets the tone with his racial slur Tourette Syndrome, his emerging trans fetish, and his bigot-lathering posts . . . his carefully curated collection of commenters is merely taking his bait and responding predictably.
Carry on, clingers. But, as UCLA has demonstrated, only so far as better Americans permit.
Z Crazy 12 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
There’s a preponderance of evidence that Brandon, in executing the withdrawal from Afghanistan, left behind American weapons and equipment for the Taliban.
Similar issue with Brandon taking steps to actively facilitate Irans funding of terrorism - some apologists use the term policy decision. Though it is a policy decision to fund a state sponsor of terrorism. giving aid and comfort to the enemy certainly meets the criteria of section 3
The court's filing office is thattaway--->
If you think you have a case justifying the filing fee, go for it.
She is NOT a lawyer -- all she has is a BA from Middlebury College.
Of all people, I thought that you would both notice this and take it into account.
She will probably claim that they Colorado Supreme Court ruling is sufficient.
Preponderance of the perjury.
Trump was entitled to argue that the Democrats stole the 2020 election, just as Democrats argued that Republicans stole the presidential elections of 2000, 2004, and 2016. Was Trump right? Probably not, in my opinion, but there is nothing wrong with taking legal measures to challenge the apparent outcome of an election, as many Democrats have done, some successfully.
What happened on January 6 was a protest that got out of hand. The principal violence, and the only fatality, was inflicted by a capitol police officer. Not a single person arrested that day possessed a firearm. Ergo, to say that it was an insurrection–an attempt to overthrow the government!–is ridiculou
If he'd stuck to the proper channels for objecting to results and avoided lying about all the non-existent evidence and hadn't goaded on a mob to force Pence to de-certify the election, hed be fine. But he didn't.
He is free to argue he was robbed even though there was no basis whatsoever for believing he lost other than bullshit. But when all you have is bullshit, it goes beyond arguing to an attempt to steal the election when you 1) pressure state officials not to certify, 2) ask the justice department to declare there was fraud, 3) pressure the VP not to certify, 4) create fake electors, and 5) call a mob to DC and then do nothing for hours while the mob rioted.
He did not call a mob to DC. That is asinine and, honestly, fucking retarded.
He did not create "Fake electors". That is what you do when you have a dispute. In case courts rule in your favor, you have to have electors available. It's been done in the past more than once.
No evidence he demanded DoJ say there was fraud.
He pressured Pence to pursue a bad legal strategy.
He is under zero obligation to demand a mob stop rioting (they didn't listen in 2020. No point trying in 2021).
He most certainly did call for the mob to descend upon DC for the "Stop the Steal" rally. On December 20, 2020 he tweeted: "Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election. Big protest in DC on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!"
(And it was pretty wild, to be fair.)
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump urged senior Justice Department officials to declare the results of the 2020 election “corrupt” in a December phone call, according to handwritten notes from one of the participants in the conversation.
“Just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the R. Congressmen,” Trump said at one point to then-Acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen, according to notes taken by Richard Donoghue, who was then Rosen’s deputy and who was also on the call."
“Be there, will be wild!”
“It ‘will be wild’ means we need volunteers for the firing squad,”
Draft tweet Trump approved but his folks never sent out: “I will be making a Big Speech at 10 a.m. on January 6th at the Ellipse (South of the White House). Please arrive early, massive crowds expected. March to the Capitol after. Stop the steal!”
I'd his mob. His failure to try and stop them (along with Eastman's plan) shows he was hoping they'd get something over with Pence.
So I would guess you're a 2020 truther? You think the election was stolen, and this stop the steal stuff is legit? Because in the world where facts matter, Trump is charged with *fraudulently* disputing the election.
"Be there, will be wild!"
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/12/politics/trump-overturn-2020-election-fake-electoral-college/index.html
Maybe Trump never approved the plan of his allies; maybe he said "Who will rid me of these troublesome election results?"
https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-elections-donald-trump-campaigns-presidential-4e7e68e2ff57aadd96d09c873a43a317
The President is obliged to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed"; that seems inconsistent with sitting around doing nothing while the US Capitol is attacked.
The other replies are spot-on. I add that they are alternate electors if you are pursuing a legitimate challenge. If instead, you have bullshit claims, they are fake.
"Not a single person arrested that day possessed a firearm."
That's not even close to being accurate. First link on Google:
(Add "https:" to this link)
//www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/capitol-rioter-armed-gun-jan-6-found-guilty-charges-rcna80387
On January 6th, 2021, President Donald Trump triggered a purposeful assault on the Capitol that threatened our representative democracy’s free and fair elections and thus, our constitutional republic. But the effort had begun months earlier, with Trump incessantly repeating his Big Lie — that only an unimaginably complex conspiracy of thousands of people coordinating massive fraud could block his “win in landslide.”
Trump tried but failed to convince the courts of the alternate facts necessary to his big lie. He tried but failed to intimidate officials of several states into reversing their states’ election results. He failed to undermine the Justice Department, failed to enlist the help of the military, failed to persuade enough members of Congress to vote to overturn the election.
Failing in all other areas and facing the June 6th Congressional validation of his defeat, Donald Trump used his final rally as the focus point and culmination of his years-long campaign of ruthless, relentless, denialist propaganda. As a sitting president failing to gain the constitution’s mandated periodic reapproval of the people, Donald Trump tried to block a peaceful transfer of power, provoking a domestic insurrection among his followers to nullify an election he unambiguously lost.
Our Constitution is meaningless if, without evidence and despite losing in every court, the loser of an election succeeds in simply refusing to accept the outcome. Yes, America proved resilient enough to survive such persistent Presidential perfidy — this time. But Trump tried, to the best of his (fortunately, limited) abilities. He gets no credit for having failed.
In our constitutional republic, no high crime is higher, no misdemeanor more treacherous. No president has been more deserving of impeachment. Donald Trump — a would-be Caudillo unfit to lead a free people — must never again be allowed the opportunity to subvert American democracy.
The Michigan Court of Appeals ruling as to which the state Supreme Court denied review is here. https://www.courts.michigan.gov/4b0320/siteassets/case-documents/uploads/opinions/final/coa/20231214_c368615_67_368615.opn.pdf
The decision (which I surmise will now become final) does not foreclose a future challenge to Trump's eligibility to appear on the general election ballot, but it holds that such a challenge at this point is not ripe for determination.
" the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol was an insurrection (an easy call, in my view)"
I'm curious how the government of the United States was going to be overthrown by these people wandering around in the building.
"That just means it was an incompetent insurrection!" is their reply.
ABC News clearly thought differently.
https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1287396378407243777
And it is the correct reply. Neither incompetence nor lack of success are defences to criminal acts - though Trumpist jurisprudence holds otherwise.
The problem is that you're characterizing doing things in a way nobody would if they were actually committing insurrection as "insurrection badly done", rather than what it really is: Evidence they weren't committing insurrection.
You've made your charge of insurrection unfalsifiable by just dismissing all evidence to the contrary as, instead, evidence of incompetence.
I'm curious what innocent explanation there is for their actions on that day.
It was a mostly peaceful protest.
The peaceful part isn't what anyone has talked about for years now.
As were the BLM protests, by this standard.
In any event, the not peaceful part is the insurrection-y bit.
No, the BLM protests were FAR from peaceful.
Unlike the arson-fests that were BLM riots, this was a mostly peaceful protest.
Your first line says protests.
Your second line says riots.
You're pretty bad at this.
Did you know that heavyweight boxing is a mostly peaceful sport? If you put a stopwatch to the fighters to find out what percentage of the time they're throwing punches, it will be somewhat less than 50%. Most of the time they're circling, moving,. looking for opportunities. Ergo, it's mostly peaceful.
Actually it wasn't. Most of the crowd at the protest went along with the attempted insurrection.
Not enough violence and arson for Demoncrats to consider it a peaceful protest.
For the hundredth time: The riot wasn't the insurection. The fraud was.
How is fraud an insurrection?
Tell that to Ilya the Lesser, who seems to rightly understand that the so-called fraud legally doesn't qualify as an insurrection.
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Are you? Or are you just sealioning when you already know the answer? The goal was to have Pence install Trump as the president, directly or indirectly, or if that didn't work to prevent Congress from certifying Biden's win so that they could get swing state legislatures to try to throw out their elections and declare Trump the winner.
And you have a problem with that?
Exactly, the underlying legal rationale was developed in 2004 when Republicans believed Bush would win the popular vote by 3 million while losing the Electoral College.
Yes, I have a problem with the person who loses the election being declared the winner.
Like what John Podesta tried to do?
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
John Podesta, the Hillary Clinton campaign chairman whose Gmail account was reputed to have been successfully “phished” by fearsome Russian “hackers,” issued a statement demanding that electors be granted an unheard-of “intelligence briefing” — with the implication for what should be done with that “briefing” information too obvious to need stating outright.
This doesn’t even serve as a proper tu quoque.
You've brought that one up before. And as before (and Sarcastr0 said), what Podesta did was wrong, but not anywhere in the same universe as what Trump did. One small act before the electors voted is not anywhere close to an attempt to steal the election.
You're aware the "one small act before the electors voted" was an attempt to steal the election, right?
To be clear - you're going to join ME arguing Podesta tried to overturn the 2016 election, and that this justifies Trump trying to overturn the 2020 election?
I'm going to argue we should treat the identical crime identically.
Okay, sure. If Podesta has taken an oath, let's make sure he is disqualified from federal or state offices, too.
Is John Podesta running for president?
No. This one small act isn’t enough to reach the level of an attempt to steal. For example, had Trump done nothing more than create fake electors on the chance that some real evidence might come forward later on, that one small act would not have been enough to amount to attempt to steal.
But as Sarcastr0 noted, if you believe it is, then it is an extremely easy call that Trump attempted to steal the election, and did so in a vastly worse manner.
That's because you're an idiot.
According to the link, no?
Yes we have a problem with that. It is illegal and would constitute a coup.
If *that* is an "insurrection", the *what* were the things Lyndon Johnson did???
And 350 million people would say, haha, what a joke. Wait, oh my god, all is lost and nothing we can do!
The goal was to have Pence install Trump as the president,
Pence had the power to reject electoral college votes from States whos election results were falsely certified. Thus throwing the election to the House of Representatives.
You say the VP does not have the power. But the legislative branch thinks the VP did have that power, because they created a law to cancel the power you claim the VP never had.
So your definition of an insurrection is following the process as laid out in constitution.
Check
There were not states whose election results were falsely certified.
Your delusions about 2020 are an indictment of how damaging Trump's lies are.
Also, plenty of laws are passed to clarify not to reverse. So Congress passing a law to close a *potential* loophole does not indicate that the loophole ever existed.
Yes, you back peddle.
The VP has the power to reject EC votes. Its in the job description.
More important, no one has the power to challenge.
The LARGE issue you refuse t address. It is not an insurrection, It is constitutional process. The outcome, the peoples representatives elect the President.
Designed planned, orchestrated, transfer of power. The best part, in two years there is an election, The people can reward or remove politicians that failed to represent their Districts.
The entire process is indescribably superior to Judges mucking about, ruling from their preferred result, instead of the direction of the Constitution.
J6 was not Constitutional process - process does not involve violence.
the peoples representatives elect the President
Not since 1800.
The Electoral college is the peoples representative.
And if, for what ever reason no one gets the ~270 EC votes, the election of President still rests in the hands of the peoples representatives. The House. The is the Constitutional design, not constitutional crisis, and if you dont like the results 100% of the House is up for re-election by the people in 2 years
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I guess this is in the unwritten constitution. Maybe it's written in invisible ink like the treasure map on the back of the Declaration of Independence?
I really overlooked the section of the constitution talking about a mob breaking into the Capitol and threatening to kill the VP if he doesn't do what they want.
Who has the power to challenge the VP for rejecting EC votes?
Pence did not have that power and the subsequent legislation merely clarified that conclusion.
Who has the power to challenge the VP?
Congress has the statutory power to challenge the results.
I'm willing to learn. Where in the Constitution is that process mentioned?
Or do you mean the House is free to vote for either candidate? Because that is the process I was talking about.
3 U.S. Code § 15
Thats the new law.
Required because, as all the legal eagles here at VC, have shown by their silence, there is no entity that had the power to challenge the VP rejecting EC votes, for cause.
You consulted the Constitution. You found no way to overturn the decision of the VP to reject
I thought your question was who has the power to reject the electors the state sent. That’s only Congress as specified in 3 U.S. Code § 15 (old or new law).
As to who in 2021 had the power to challenge Pence if he chose to reject votes. In the blink of an eye, there would have been a case filed in court and Pence would have lost (there is no effin way SCOTUS would let that happen).
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There were no such states. (Moreover, "falsely certified" doesn't even make much sense as a phrase.)
I say it, Mike Pence says it, every lawyer not named John Eastman says it. And Eastman won't be a lawyer much longer.
A law saying "the VP cannot do X" is not of course a statement by the legislature saying that the VP has the power to do X.
Who has the power to challenge the VP rejecting EC votes?
Who has the power to challenge any clear constitutional violation?
If a state law says "Ballots counted in contravention of the procedures specified in those provisions may not be included in the certified result of any election", and ballots counted in contravention of the procedures specified in those provisions are included in the certified result of the election, does that count as "falsely certified"?
If it affects the outcome, yes. That did not come even remotely to being remotely close to happening in 2020.
So some random employee took it upon herself to just kick Trump off the ballot because she felt he committed insurrection.
Why didn't she kick Brandon off the ballot? Or Cuntala off the ballot?
Why can't some random Marine just overthrow Brandon and Cuntala?
These are your fans -- your bigoted, antisocial, delusional fans -- Volokh Conspirators . . . and the reason your colleagues and employers (at legitimate schools, at least) hope you will leave, too.
It's beyond debate.
Cuntala raised bail money for insurrectionists.
that's aid and comfort.
she's disqualified.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1267555018128965643
Our bigotry here usually doesn't involve juvenile name calling, Z. You're at the wrong blog for your level of maturity
Frank Drackman alone refutes that assertion.
Note my qualifier: 'usually'
Sometimes the foul language gets so bad, I wonder if these are plants to try to poison the well against more genteel libertarian thoughts.
It's all about signifying.
It is not about anti-libertarian plants.
Because your dumb bullshit isn't real.
And she's likely to be impeached for it:
https://www.bangordailynews.com/2023/12/29/politics/john-andrews-bellows-impeach-ballot-decision/
I can see a lot of Democrats being pissed at her because this is going to bring in a lot of out-of-state MAGA money and that will very much help the underfunded Maine GOP. Golden likely will lose his District 1 Congress seat and likely will help in a lot of legislative races because it was the legislature who picked Bellows.
Governor Mills can't run again in 2026 (2 term limit) and well, from the above cite: "“This is hyper-partisanship on full display. A Secretary of State APPOINTED by legislative Democrats bans President Trump from the 2024 ballot so that she can jockey for position in the 2026 Democrat Primary for Governor. Banana Republic isn’t just a store at the mall,” Andrews said in a social media statement."
There are a lot of Dems ahead of her in line for the nomination. I think she'll be impeached.
The decision by the Maine official is vigilantism, pure and simple.
No different than someone going around killing suspected gang members.
Maine HAD some good Secretaries of State in the past -- she ain't one.
I said before how the police need more power to put away the crook and the mugger and the carjacker and the gang member.
They can't just take more power for themselves; the lawmakers must do it for them.
Yes.
One especially egregious abuse of power was FJB's mandate, via OSHA, that all employers with fifty or more employees must tell their employees to be vaccinated against COVID-19. there was zero historical support for the idea, and the Supreme Court easily struck down the mandate as exceeding OSHA's power.
With all the focus on Section 3, Section 5 entrusts Congress to decide the time, place, and manner of how the 14th Amendment is enforced. To quote your example, neither individual Marines nor the Marine Corps as a whole has the authority to overthrow a disqualified President, because Congress did not give them that authority.
DeSantis forced Americans to evacuate their homes over inclement weather…then he shut the stupid white trash schools and now their kids are dumber than before.
'there was zero historical support for the idea,'
How fucking stupid are you people Jesus Christ. Death cult.
Vigilantism?? I don't think that word means what you seem to think it means.
She is the person designated by Maine state law to determine ballot eligibility. Her decision may be correct or incorrect, but how on earth is literally doing her job vigilantism?
In his support of the decision by the Maine Secretary of State, Somin relies on the assertions that (1) the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol was an insurrection; (2) Trump's activities amounted to "engaging" in that [particular] insurrection; (3) the president is an "officer of the United States" covered by Section 3 (another easy issue); (4) Trump's activities were not protected by the First Amendment; and (5) Section 3 is "self-executing" and thus states can enforce it without additional congressional legislation.
Assertion #2 is weak in that, implicitly, Somin asserts that the potential political candidate must engage in the insurrection whereas the Constitutional text which he invokes prohibits not only those directly engaging in insurrection but also those who have at any time "given aid or comfort to the enemies [of the Constitution of the United States]."
The deadly 1967 attack on the USS Liberty unquestionably occurred -- the attackers have admitted doing it. One who attacks a US-flagged naval vessel is unquestionably an enemy of the Constitution of the United States. The attackers -- the terrorist group known as the IDF -- remain an organized group. Under what logic can a "Senator or Representative in Congress" who has knowingly and deliberately given "given aid or comfort" to the IDF remain on the Maine ballot? Accepting Assertion #3 as valid for only the sake of argument, under what logic can Joe Biden remain on the Maine ballot?
Would the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment have allowed a Senator who successfully voted to give arms to the Confederate Army to remain on the ballot? That is, is an act by a sitting Senator, Representative, or President/Commander-In-Chief automatically exempt from the provisions of the Amendment: what's the legal (or moral) loophole which permits giving aid and comfort to preferred attackers but not to others?
Most definitely a moral issue is involved and, as Somin states, we must consider the morality as well as the legality.
The US deemed the attack a mistake. But even if it wasn't and Israel could be rightly labeled an enemy of the US in 1967, Israel was designated a major non-NATO ally in 1987.
Israel was stupid in not agreeing it was and paying damages to the dead & injured.
Israel also deemed it a mistake, but agreed the mistake justified paying damages.
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What on earth are you talking about? Israel did agree it was, and paid damages to the dead & injured.
I was not aware of that. For some reason -- and I have my guesses -- that part of the story isn't told.
Thank you for mentioning it.
As an aside, the fact that the boat was still floating tells me that someone, somewhere in the IDF said "no mas!"
If yours were a valid argument, wouldn't it also bar Trump? I seem to recall him "aiding and comforting" Israel to the tune of relocating the US Embassy to Jerusalem at their request.
"Under what logic can a “Senator or Representative in Congress” who has knowingly and deliberately given “given aid or comfort” to the IDF remain on the Maine ballot?"
If your position had any merit, Joe Biden would have been disqualified from serving as a Senator as well. He wasn't, because Israel and the IDF are not enemies of the United States.
an easy call, in my view
Anyone who actually believes this is completely insane.
No, they are dishonest and evil authoritarians but they're not insane. They need an insurrection and they are doing everything in their power to bring one into existence.
I'm not too exercised by the decision, the Supreme Court is going to hear the case in an expedited manner, and I expect they will rule or at least issue an order requiring primary ballot access some time in January.
I'd be surprised if they didn't have their clerks doing research, and also doing their own for months, including reading several of the posts on the topic here at Volokh.
My comments on the topic will likely be cited in at least one concurrence if not the majority opinion.
Which case are you referring to? The Colorado case could move quickly, although Trump may not want it to be decided before the March 5 primary, where as of now he remains on the ballot. If the case were to become moot as a result of the primary occurring before decision, SCOTUS could still hear the case under the exception to mootness where the matter is capable of repetition but evading review.
The Maine presidential primary is also scheduled for March 5. Judicial review under Maine's Administrative Procedure Act may not be completed by then. Under § 11004 of that Act, a stay is not automatic, and an application for a stay must ordinarily be made first to the agency, which may issue a stay upon a showing of irreparable injury to the petitioner, a strong likelihood of success on the merits, and no substantial harm to adverse parties or the general public. Timelines under the APA are not expeditious. It is highly unlikely that review by the Superior Court, plus an appeal to the Supreme Judicial Council, can be completed before the primary date.
Maine courts appear to recognize an exception to mootness where the issues are capable of repetition but evade review because of their fleeting or determinate nature. Halfway House, Inc. v. City of Portland, 670 A.2d 1377, 1380 (Me. 1996).
Bellows suspended her decision because of the possibility of an appeal.
You are correct, but the suspension lasts only until the Superior Court rules on any appeal, or the time to appeal expires.
Wouldn't it then be the case Trump is on the ballot until the appeals process is complete (I think it is safe to assume there will be an appeal) without a judicial stay?
Not necessarily. The suspension by the Secretary of State lasts only through first tier review in the Superior Court. Whether any stay should extend through a further appeal to the Maine Supreme Judicial Council has not yet been decided.
Trump will want it decided quickly, because either the Court will deal with it in a way that stops these attempts to disqualify him in their tracks, or it will endorse them.
If they stop them, best it happen soon. If they get endorsed, it hardly matters when that happens.
Oh, now he's in a hurry for "justice"...
Did you even read the Colorado decision?
It also applies to the General election, and I presume the Maine "decision" does too.
The Supreme Court is not going to punt on a decision that effects the election of the most important office in the land, or allow lower courts and jurisdictions to play whack a mole.
If the Maine and Colorado decisions did only apply to the primaries then the respective state GOP parties already the power to moot the decisions unilaterally:
"The Colorado Republican Party on Tuesday threatened to switch its presidential nominating process from a primary to a caucus system, following the state’s Supreme Court ruling Tuesday that rendered former President Trump ineligible to appear on the primary ballot."
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4369749-colorado-gop-threatens-to-shift-to-caucus-system-over-trump-ruling/
I don't know that the cancelation of the Colorado primary would moot the issues in the lawsuit. SCOTUS opined as to mootness in City of Erie v. Pap's A. M., 529 U.S. 277, 287 (2000):
Avoiding the primary election would not make any SCOTUS opinion merely advisory. All parties and intervenors would still have a stake in the outcome.
The Secretary of State's position is that she will be governed by a final judicial decision regarding whether to place Donald Trump's name on the ballot. That would extend to a general election ballot in the event he is nominated by Republicans or runs as an independent (an option he has never ruled out if he is not the Republican nominee).
The intervenors Trump and the Colorado Republican State Central Committee each have a continuing interest in determining that Trump is eligible to serve as president if elected. The plaintiff voters, who do not support Trump and who include two voters not affiliated with any party, have an interest in determining that Trump is ineligible to serve. These interests survive whether a primary election is held or not. If SCOTUS elects to review the Colorado Supreme Court decision, the lawsuit will remain fully adversarial until its conclusion.
In any event, if the case were to become moot by elimination of the primary, there is a recognized exception to the general rule in cases that are capable of repetition, yet evading review. This exception requires a "reasonable expectation" or a "demonstrated probability" that the same controversy will recur involving the same complaining party. Federal Election Commission v. Wisconsin Right to Life, Inc., 551 U.S. 449, 463 (2007). Here it is foreseeable that at least some of the plaintiffs would refile an identical challenge regarding the general election ballot.
Who is funding the "plaintiff voters" in this suit?
I surmise that it is Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. https://www.citizensforethics.org/ Does that matter?
Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME) and Rep. Jared Golden (D-ME) both think it was a very wrong call by Sec. Bellows: https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4381078-sen-collins-maine-secretary-state-decision-barring-trump-ballot-should-be-overturned/
Bellows is a far-left loon who's not qualified to be Secretary of State.
Her decision will be overturned by the SJC.
“Maine voters should decide who wins the election — not a Secretary of State chosen by the Legislature,” she said on Xitter.
That's because she, like most people, doesn't care what the 14th Amendment says (just as they don't care what the 2nd Amendment says), they just want their preferred outcome.
If the 14th Amendment bars insurrectionists, and Trump is an insurrectionist, he MUST be barred from holding any subsequent federal or state office.
Exactly like Illya
I maintain that A14S3 is self-executing, and that States have the authority to preclude ineligible candidates from the ballot, however I think a court hearing as held in Colorado is the appropriate method.
I am not a fan of a singular SoS making a factual determination that is not a black and white issue such as age.
And doing so, by concerted effort and design, to affect a national election by knocking him off a few key flip flop states.
The heavy lifting of what should be an obvious issue recognized by all, even his supporters, is divided by 50 to make it much easier.
It waddles like a scam and looks like a scam and quacks like a scam.
The quacking is that it's just the umpteenth effort to use the power of government to git a political opponent.
Each initiative, of course, is testified to on a Bible that it is purely disinterested concern for rule of law.
Except for impeachments, where politicians proudly accepted impeachments were political, and thus no barriers to using them to get political opponents. And thus exposing all the other initiatives were similarly motivated.
This post is pure vibes.
Krayt, this is a legal blog. You have been around here long enough you should do better than instantiating vibes as an argument, even one that just convinces yourself. Or at least if you aspire to being a cut above the clowns like Ben.
Impeachments are political acts *under current legal precedent*. It's a whole different part of the Constitution from the 14th Amendment!
Sarcastr0 2 hours ago
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This post is pure vibes.
Krayt, this is a legal blog. You have been around here long enough you should do better than instantiating vibes as an argument,
Mirror
Yes, but neither Maine nor Colorado are key swing states.
Michigan is, and he will be on the ballot there.
Really the key states are Nevada, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire. He could be kept off the ballot is 20 states that he has no chance of winning and it wouldn't matter.
In other purple states like Arizona and Georgia and North Carolina, there is no chance he will be kept off the ballot.
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He will be on the primary ballot there. There's been no ruling about the general election.
The NC board of elections has already ruled that Trump will appear on the primary ballot. The board is evenly divided between Dems and Repubs, and the vote was unanimous.
It is subject to due process and no doubt judicial review, so it will not be her decision alone.
Great, then red states can exclude Biden from the ballot too.
It’s not like the Maine Secretary of State has no basis to keep Trump out. Just last week the “Colorado Supreme Court found, without disagreement, and by clear and convincing evidence, that Trump indeed engaged in insurrection on January 6.” (Blumenthal)
The scary part is that he did it all in front of us — and that he almost succeeded. Meanwhile, Republicans are standing in the way of any punishment of Trump. And this is precluding a needed closure and a healing of our nation’s wounds.
Insurrection?
I was told it was a peaceful demonstration that intensified.
https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1287396378407243777
It was, unlike the riots of 2020, a legitimately mostly peaceful protest.
There were peaceful protests in 2020 and on Jan 06.
There were riots in 2020 as well, which were separate from the protests.
There was an insurrection on J6, which was also separate from the protests.
Says a lot how the Dems have been content to just allow the J6 protesters to go off about their lives with no charges or attention. But the protesters in 2020...the GOP can't stop calling them rioters.
"Says a lot how the Dems have been content to just allow the J6 protesters to go off about their lives with no charges or attention."
Have you forgotten about the many charged and convicted of crimes? You have to do better with your misleading comments
Those would be insurrectionists, not protesters.
Misleading comments is his stock in trade.
Misleading?
So, Bumble, tell me just what part of this you are unable to understand.
I understand that these are misleading comments:
"There was an insurrection on J6, which was also separate from the protests.
Says a lot how the Dems have been content to just allow the J6 protesters to go off about their lives with no charges or attention. But the protesters in 2020…the GOP can’t stop calling them rioters."
Ah, so now it simple denial of reality. Because...thousands of peaceful 2020 BLM and 2021 J6 protesters declined to break the law and went off about their lives with no charges or attention.
About a thousand J6 self-proclaimed insurrection-focused, and a somewhat larger number of BLM-adjacent rioters were charged for their illegal acts, either pleaded guilty or were convicted, and received probation or served time.
You don't hear as much about convicted BLM as opposed to J6 rioters because...
1) You strongly rely on a severely limited set of information sources.
2) Non-J6 rioters were charged mostly with opportunistic property crimes (theft and vandalism) committed away from and at different times as the BLM protests. Their prosecutions were spread out over years, and divided among dozens of different state and local jurisdictions receiving vastly varying amounts of publicity. There was no single repository of information on these crimes, so it was hard to report on the whole picture.
3) Most (not all) J6 offenses were committed in the same small place-and-time-bounded circumstances, and were charged and tried in a single well-publicized jurisdiction (plus a small number of J6 seditionists convicted for a less-bounded set of illegal activities).
What is it about all this that so confuses you?
I swear every time your reply to me it's because you have misunderstood some easy part of what I or the person I replied to wrote.
The riot was not the entirety of the insurrection Trump was engaged in; it was part of the insurrection Trump was engaged in.
In fact, he didn't participate in the riot at all (as far as I am aware). How could that be!?! Once you understand how someone could be "engaged in" something and yet not participate in every aspect of it, you will understand why Trump was found by a court of law to have engaged in insurrection for the purposes of the 14th Amendment.
A court with no jurisdiction over the events of Jan. 6th.
What difference would that make to whether Trump is eligible to appear on a ballot in Colorado?
Really ignoramus, what part of the split decision means without disagreement? You marxists aren't even pretending to believe in the principles of justice these days
Given that this is simply an opinion by the Maine SecState, not a court ruling, does the potential (likely, in my opinion) political fallout of Bellows’ opinion come into play here? If people will be unhappy with the CO court ruling, at least many will accept it as the opinion of qualified judges following the applicable law. Bellows isn’t even a lawyer, let alone a judge or a court. She is just a public official who has the power to decide a candidate can’t be on the ballot, and has chosen to use it in what most people will see as a politically motivated act, whether they agree with it or not. At what point do we call that undemocratic? When it’s someday done to a Democrat?
This is proper. The SoS makes sure that only eligible candidates are in the ballot. Trump is ineligible based on the clear text of the 14A. If Trump disagrees he can seek judicial review. The SoS is just the start of the process.
That's fair. I think the key issue is the characterization of January 6 as an "insurrection" comparable to the Civil War. It would be nice to get a court ruling on that, since it's become an ink blot for both sides. Ink blots are fine, but not when they're used to decide whether a candidate can be on the ballot.
What will happen when Bellows decides that Orthodox Jewish congregations can no longer register as corporations because they refuse to conduct same sex marriage?
She'd lose too many political allies in the Maine Jewish Community or she probably would.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenna_Bellows
The thing that has struck me, about these cases, is that Trump's legal team seems to be badly fumbling the ball. On purpose?
I can't speak to Bellows' legal credentials, but there is a process for challenging Trump's ballot access, and she issued an opinion outlining her reasoning. The opinion's description of the arguments and filings made by the Trump team are striking in how their incompetence shines through. Exhibits numbered but not provided; arguments made but beside the point; lack of familiarity with local rules or process. Someone within the Trump orbit clearly decided these ballot challenges weren't worth focusing much time or effort on, in the initial instance.
Trump's losses, in other words, may well have more to do with his choice of counsel and legal strategy than the underlying merits. Perhaps a more serious candidate would be winning these cases. One wonders if the thinking is he'd rather have a smattering of losses in blue or purple states, after which he'll appeal to the Supreme Court, bring out the big guns, and then get a decisive victory. Sure creates a made-for-TV narrative, doesn't it?
I guess not trying in the lower courts because you figure it's going to bubble up to SCOTUS anyway is a strategy.
Another possibility is that all this punishment-by-process has finally bled Trump to the point that he can't hire good lawyers for every case. Or the fix is in and the good lawyers won't take his case.
Does Trump generally pay his lawyers?
"...good lawyers won’t take his case...he can’t hire good lawyers for every case" is generally true, with some exceptions.
One of those exceptions is very good Florida lawyer, Chris Kise, who accepted Trump as a client only after receiving $3 million in advance.
Kise was hired to be Florida counsel on the Mar-a-Lago stolen documents case, but the cash-in-advance allowed him to blow off Trump's dumb, unlawful directions to lie about stuff that can put you in jail if you lie about it.
So Trump tried to fire him and learned smart lawyer Kise would get the money anyway—not Donald's money, but from his sucker supporters donating to his Super Pac—so he put him on the New York civil fraud case instead. To replace Kise, he hired a Florida attorney with previous experience in Family Law—divorce and custody cases mostly—which could turn out to be handy if Trump's relationship with his Corporate Parking Garage attorney ends up where it seems to be heading.
Kise is now following Trump's dumb directions because while $3mil isn't worth going to jail, it is worth doing a lot of dumb stuff and losing in court because of it. His fellow smart lawyers understand, because they've all had dumb clients too.
Too funny to be true.
(Seriously?)
"I can’t speak to Bellows’ legal credentials"
You mean her BA from Middlebury College?
That's all she has....
The Department of the Secretary of State in Maine has a Litigation Division, which among other things provides legal advice on election matters.
With the frequency with which Dr. Ed 2 and other Trump followers threaten violence, it's not surprising that nobody working for Bellows wants to become an additional target.
It's worse than just that -- she's a partisan political hack who was a Biden Elector.
She's not an elected public official, she was appointed by the state legislature -- and is already being impeached less than 12 hours later, https://www.bangordailynews.com/2023/12/29/politics/john-andrews-bellows-impeach-ballot-decision/
And this sums up what people are ALREADY saying:
“This is hyper-partisanship on full display. A Secretary of State APPOINTED by legislative Democrats bans President Trump from the 2024 ballot so that she can jockey for position in the 2026 Democrat Primary for Governor. Banana Republic isn’t just a store at the mall,” Andrews said in a social media statement.:
All of the Democrats are partisan hacks at this point.
Thinking this is a sure sign you yourself are a hack.
"The Maine Constitution vests the House with the sole power to impeach, while the Senate shall have the power to try impeachments. The Democrats’ strong majorities in both the House and Senate will make any impeachment of Bellows unlikely unless Republicans can peel off enough votes from her party. The Maine Constitution requires a two-thirds majority to convict during an impeachment trial, and Democrats currently control about 63 percent of the chamber’s seats."
Maybe it's a good idea to read the article linked all the way to the end?
Jason Cavanaugh is almost where I am - I think these decisions are not incorrect on the law or the facts, but neither are they required by the law and facts (see: all the states who made opposing determinations).
SCOTUS needs to do some departmentalism and harmonizing here, and come down on Trump should stay on the ballot.
But equally telling are how *awful* the arguments the right is making. People who used to read decisions they commented on have clearly stopped bothering to do so.
Instead you get three main arguments
1) rote mischaracterization of the facts on J6
2) off-the-wall takes on the law that rely on neither text nor originalism nor precedent, just vibes.
3) threats of violence.
I remain quite sure this isn't going anywhere, but it sure is revealing the rot at the heart of the GOP. Facts and law no longer matter; this is what happens when you tie yourself to Trump.
I will agree that I find both sides to be exaggerating extensively. However, I find the left to be more extreme. They are a calling an unorganized riot an insurrection.
Insurrection is a word with meaning. It requires violence. An overthrow of a government or seizure of land.
For example, the CHAZ riot was an insurrection. They took land, declared it to not be America, and defended it with arms, and since they were officially supported by multiple politicians, those politicians should be disqualified. This is not up for debate as it's practically a textbook case.
The Portland riots which Rommelman reported on extensively are more questionable. There was active and continued violence with weaponry and explosives against government buildings and personnel. While the goal was not explicitly overthrowing the government, aid and comfort given to these rioters was done knowing that they would be dropping bombs in police cars and shooting fireworks at government buildings. Harris unquestionably gave aid to this maybe-insurrection.
The January 6th Riot was explicitly protesting problems in the election, declaring that it was invalid. That's not an insurrection by definition.
Additionally, there is significant video evidence that the majority of people in the capitol building were not violent. At least one person got a not guilty verdict because there was a video of the police opening the door for him. The claimed plans you have quoted in this thread are fantastical at best, and there is no evidence that Trump was involved in any commanding or coordinating way. Trump's actual actions were confined to the courtroom, and so this effectively criminalizes challenging perceived corruption.
Finally, as I mentioned earlier there is a clear double standard that we are seeing. Explicit support or even aid to active insurrections in 2020 was overlooked. It's clear to anyone observing that Trump has been declared guilty of anything and everything before even hearing charges since at least 2016.
'The January 6th Riot was explicitly protesting problems in the election, declaring that it was invalid. That’s not an insurrection by definition'
Well, no, but that's not what happened. There was violence and they tried to seize the Capitol Building. Which fits your definition.
Cordoning off a block of Seattle for a week and saying 'no cops' is shitty, but no one said boo about it being an insurrection until they were grasping at straws to minimize the *actual breaking into the Capitol and hunting for Representatives* that happened.
'explicitly protesting problems in the election' is you, mistaking protest to excuse violence.
There is no double standard, and using the word explicit is a sign you know you need a little zhuzhing up your largely declarative argument.
What hunting for representatives? Taking selfies in Pelosi's office? You're a dishonest hack. Typical Demoncrat
"Nancy! Oh Nancy! We're looking for you!" is on video.
Why was Ashley Babbitt shot? What was she and the mob behind her trying to do?
Demoncrat
Oh you're a peach.
She was shot because an affirmative action hire police officer who got a 900 on the SAT hated whites.
Ah, you're an out-and-out racist.
Checks out.
Are you one of those people who denies affirmative action admits unqualified blacks to positions of power?
Right. Affirmative action is a really crappy idea for anyone whose first name isn't Clarence or whose last name isn't Thomas.
No, Gaslighto,
Forget everything else -- the schmuck damn near hit THREE OTHER OFFICERS. "Friendly fire" is not, and the first rule of shooting people as a cop is to not hit other cops in the process...
I guess it's good that he didn't hit other cops in the process, then.
You're just engaged in Sarcastr0's #1: rote mischaracterization of the facts on J6.
The riot was a part of the "insurrection", but it was not the entirety or even a sufficient part of the insurrection Trump has been found to have engaged in. The riot had no chance whatsoever of overthrowing the government. The riot had no chance whatsoever of invalidating Joe Biden's Electoral College victory. The riot had no chance whatsoever of allowing Trump to remain President after January 2021.
"SCOTUS needs to do some departmentalism and harmonizing here, and come down on Trump should stay on the ballot."
it's not clear to me why you think this. Presidential elections are not national, they are state by state. And states are granted a lot of leeway in how they manage their elections and organize their ballots. Not unlimited leeway, but if a state decides that a candidate does not qualify to appear on the ballot for state law reasons, and this is decided by the properly authorized person or persons, and it's given the blessing by the state's highest court, why should SCOTUS step in? I don't mean why in a practical sense, I mean a legal or constitutional sense.
The decision was based on 14.3, not state law standing on its own. SCOTUS has the last say on what 14.3 means.
I wonder if Ilya thinks it would be an easy call to label Hillary's actions during and after the 2016 election as a coup. There was no violence but she used internal "resistance" actors to try to wrongly get Trump convicted as a traitor.
There was never much of a push to convict Trump as a traitor. And Hillary was definitely not involved in any of the Trump investigations.
All the hip right wing nuts are using Obama as the secret puppetmaster - get with the times!
Ummm. She literally commissioned a fabricated intelligence report on Trump from a Russian agent that was used as the basis of the Trump impeachment. She even paid a fine because of it. Do you not consider that important?
We were all there.
"She literally commissioned a fabricated intelligence report on Trump from a Russian agent"
not true
"that was used as the basis of the Trump impeachment"
not true
"She even paid a fine because of it."
not true
This episode of Life in an Alternate Universe has been brought to you by captcrisis.
The Clinton Campaign actually admitted guilt to the FEC.
When Trump appoints personal loyalists everywhere then everything you completely make up will become true.
.
Campaigns must report all of their spending to the FEC. The Clintonton campaign paid a fine for miscategorizing the payments that went for the Steele dossier. (They had called it "legal services" because the money was paid to Perkins Coie, but because Perkins then spent the money on Fusion GPS, it wasn't ultimately for legal services and should've been labeled something else.) Whether you view this as the moral equivalent of the 9/11 attacks or a minor paperwork error, either way it is not what you characterized it as.
Specifically, you said that she "literally commissioned a fabricated intelligence report on Trump from a Russian agent that was used as the basis of the Trump impeachment.”
But all of that is wrong.
1) She did not "commission a fabricated report." She commissioned a report. Even if it were "fabricated" rather than just incorrect, she didn't say, "Please create a fabricated report for me." (Note that even if the asserted facts in the dossier were wrong, that doesn't make it incorrect because the purpose of the dossier was to collect information about rumors and such, too.)
2) She did not commission the report "from a Russian agent." She commissioned the report from an American company, FusionGPS, headed by two Americans. (That company contracted work out to a British, not Russian, agent.)
3) The Steele dossier was not even the basis for the investigation of Trump, and it most certainly was not the basis of impeachment, which was about Trump's illicit acts in Ukraine, not about his dealings with Putin.
"She did not “commission a fabricated report.” She commissioned a report."
Which happened to be fabricated.
But fabricated reports are a specialty of Fusion GPS. They collect, or if necessary, invent, scurrilous rumors about somebody, then use their media contacts to get them reported as "news". Their specialty is media hit jobs, not research.
.
No, once again, it wasn't fabricated. Steele talked to Russian contacts about Trump. Russian contacts told him stuff about Trump. He reported that people were saying such-and-such about Trump. If his contacts were themselves passing on unreliable information, well, that speaks to the accuracy of the dossier, not about whether it was "fabricated."
What you know about Fusion GPS would fit inside a 280 character tweet, with room left over for two or three of your conspiracy theories about how Dems secretly want us to be sent to the gulag.
Umm, you should Google half the stuff you post, because as captcrisis pointed out a lot of it is flat wrong on the facts.
Of course it'll be easy. They'll just do it. No need for logic, evidence, consistency, accuracy, honesty or integrity.
Does an insurrection have to be successful, in order to disqualify its leader?
Treason doth never prosper, and all that.
If successful, it is not insurrection, it is revolution.
...and of course it needs to have occurred.
I'm pretty sure you'd just deny it had occurred.
No one that had anything to do with Jan. 6 has been charged with insurrection let alone convicted.
Yes, it needs to have occurred. But, like I said, [if it did occur], you'd just deny it had occurred.
Just to be clear, and I'll probably end up saying this again before 2024 is over, I am a Democrat who is not afraid of Trump. I would simply prefer that the Trump shitshow not continue for another five years. Good governance is a thing and Trump ain't it.
The Trump farce has gone on long enough and it's high time someone rang down the curtain on it. My preference is that that someone be the voters come November rather than the courts. I think this litigation is an incredibly stupid political stunt, and I agree Trump should be on the ballot, as the first step to him getting his butt kicked by the voters.
"I think this litigation is an incredibly stupid political stunt "
On this we agree, although I'd prefer that the GOP ruled him ineligible for its nomination.
How do you calculate that we have been experiencing "good government" over the past three years?
Well, good governance is a relative term; no administration is 100% perfect and no administration is 100% beyond the pale. I think that Biden is a huge improvement over Trump. He has repaired foreign relations that Trump damaged. He hasn't allowed Putin to walk all over the Ukraine (if Trump were still president the Ukraine would be a Russian province by now). He has demonstrated an ability to get stuff through Congress. He has displayed a willingness to work with the other party. He doesn't say toxic things -- occasionally he'll say a dumb thing, but his rhetoric isn't pure poison like Trump's. He's brought down inflation. He's not in bed with white supremacists. He's actually trying to unify the country whereas Trump is blatantly trying to divide it. There are others but that's a start.
And even if Biden were absolutely awful, that would still be a separate issue from whether Trump is any good.
"Well, good governance is a relative term; no administration is 100% perfect and no administration is 100% beyond the pale."
OK, I think most people would agree to that.
" I think that Biden is a huge improvement over Trump. He has repaired foreign relations that Trump damaged. He hasn’t allowed Putin to walk all over the Ukraine (if Trump were still president the Ukraine would be a Russian province by now)."
Which foreign relations? When Russia first attacked his first offer was to fly Zelenski our of the country and referred to it a a "mior incursion".
" He has demonstrated an ability to get stuff through Congress."
Such as?
" He has displayed a willingness to work with the other party."
Got an example?
" He doesn’t say toxic things — occasionally he’ll say a dumb thing, but his rhetoric isn’t pure poison like Trump’s."
In the eye of the beholder.
" He’s brought down inflation."
His actions caused the worst inflation in forty years and despite the fact that the rate of inflation has decreased it still isn't at the level that it was at when Trump left office.
"He’s not in bed with white supremacists. He’s actually trying to unify the country whereas Trump is blatantly trying to divide it."
Which white supremacists? Why is pooling showing more support for Trump from minorities?
There are others but that’s a start.
"And even if Biden were absolutely awful, that would still be a separate issue from whether Trump is any good."
Biden is absolutely awful, but you are free to have your own truth.
OK, I'm about to go into a hearing so I can't respond to everything but here is the response to your first couple of points:
"Which foreign relations? When Russia first attacked his first offer was to fly Zelenski our of the country and referred to it a a “mior incursion”."
That 's like saying that when the burglar broke into your house he offered to leave if you'd give him a couple of antiques of yours that he admires. Putin's war is a war of aggression. And if he's successful, this won't be his last. Do you want to defeat him now, or when he's on the German border?
” He has demonstrated an ability to get stuff through Congress.”
Such as?"
https://www.vox.com/politics/23697855/joe-biden-popularity-legislative-record
Republicans are super excited to nominate a guy who:
• Lost the popular vote twice
• Left office with the economy in a very bad place
• Encouraged a violent autogolpe
• Was twice impeached
• Is currently facing 91 criminal indictments
• Has been ruled ineligible for the ballot in multiple states because his candidacy has been ruled a violation of the 14th Amendment
----------------
Meanwhile, Democrats have an incumbent president who:
• Got more votes than anyone in American history
• Beat COVID
• Achieved a nearly-unprecedented economic soft landing
• Brought and kept unemployment under 4 percent
• Has seen median household wealth increase by 37 percent (substantially exceeding the cumulative inflation rate)
• Is generally regarded has having handled geopolitical crises as well as any president in the modern era
Joe Biden and Donald Trump are nearly certainly be the 2024 candidates for President. As voters start paying attention in the second half of 2024, pretty sure all this seems better for Biden than Trump. There are three issues, however which could move things in either direction:
1) A catastrophic health issue—low odds but could happen to either Trump or Biden, odds about the same.
2) Current economic trends change, and 2024 turns out to be either better or worse, substantially, than the quite good 2023. Low odds of happening but if it does, equal odds of favoring either candidate.
3) Trump is convicted of one or more felonies before the close of the Republican Nominating Convention: July 18, 2024. Odds will be easier to calculate in about a month, so lets call them even for now.
What a total crock of shit!
I appreciate such incisive, articulate, well-supported criticism!
Republicans are super excited to nominate a guy who:
• Lost the popular vote twice: Irrelevant. Presidents aren't elected by popular vote.
• Left office with the economy in a very bad place: Most of it as a result of Covid shutdowns.
• Encouraged a violent autogolpe: By urging followers to peacefully and patriotically make their voices heard.
• Was twice impeached: Acquitted both times.
• Is currently facing 91 criminal indictments: So far. No verdicts yet.
• Has been ruled ineligible for the ballot in multiple states because his candidacy has been ruled a violation of the 14th Amendment: Subject to change. Stay tuned.
Bumble, suppose for sake of argument that you're right rather than just a Trumpist shill. The practical problem that Trump still faces is that the country is tired of the Trump shitshow. They don't want another four years of a president being criminally prosecuted, who says things that get people to storm the Capitol, who has abandoned the pretense of being anything other than a petty con man. Just how much of an appetite for Trump's continued antics do you think Americans still have?
I kinow, I know, you think most of it is made up by the Democrats. Well, as it turned out there wasn't much to Hillary's emails either. But when Jim Comey released his letter saying she was going to be under continued investigation, that sealed the election because the voters decided they didn't want four years of scandal. They still don't. They want nice, quiet good governance. And whatever you may think of Biden, Trump ain't it.
Biden "beat COVID"? Really? Seems to me it's still around, and seems to me that the vaccines were developed under Trump.
He brought unemployment to about the same level it was back in Feb 2020 when Trump was in office? OK, but it was already on its way back before Biden was elected. By the time Biden was sworn in, unemployment was already below what it was for half of Obama's presidency, which is quite amazing considering how much of the economy was *forcibly* shut down in 2020.
"Is generally regarded has having handled geopolitical crises as well as any president in the modern era" - You think so? The Russian invasion of Ukraine started on his watch and is still ongoing, and it seems to me there's a lot of criticism about his handling of the withdrawal from Afghanistan. It's too soon to say much about the Israel situation.
I would simply prefer that the Trump shitshow not continue for another five years. Good governance is a thing and Trump ain’t it.
Take out the Crossfire Hurricane counter intel investigation. Take out the Human sources infiltrating the Trump campaign. Take out the abuse of the FISA court, What exactly was the shit show?
I mean other than the Fact President Obama, and Vice President Biden had regular in person meetings with the FBI and the DoJ, to personalty supervise the counter intel investigation, that had zero predicate. They Worked overtime to create an entire narrative made of lies
Exactly who was the Ring Master of this little dog and pony show.
Or did you hate the first increase of buying power for the middle class, minorities and women?
Or was the staunching the flow of illegal aliens into the USA, that has you so bummed.
Maybe failing to start new foreign military actions has you pissed off.
What was this Shit show you claimed to have experienced?
I will start to give a damn after Trump is convicted of insurrection.
Or tried for insurrection.
Or at least charged with insurrection.
How about if a court finds he had engaged in insurrection, after a week-long hearing at which Trump was represented by counsel of his choice and had the opportunity to present evidence?
(Bonus point: do you acknowledge that Trump is "a rapist"?)
The sooner that SCOTUS takes up this tomfoolery, the better.
Also the sooner trials start, the better.
Agree, but recognize that Trump's legal strategy is to delay everything in order to run out the clock. And those on his side (e.g. Judge Cannon) are more than willing to assist with the delay.
I don't know which side the Supreme Court will take - that is the delaying part. The immunity case currently before them can be addressed quickly if they want to so that the trial currently on hold can proceed. I'm skeptical that they want to.
Do you note how many liberals and anti-Trump folks here are not into the outcome of getting Trump off the ballot?
Weird for such a dictatorial anti-democratic crew, eh?
Not weird at all.
I hate seeing Trump on the ballot, but I hate even more this mode of disposing of him.
I'm with you. But, were you with me in believing Trump should have been convicted and disqualified by the Senate in 2021.
Curious as to who your preferred candidate would have been in 2016 and today?
This comment was not in reply to you.
Plenty of folks on here call this a Democratic plot.
It is not; they just have partisan conspiracy brain.
"This comment was not in reply to you."
I realized that.
If Trump were to drop dead of a heart attack, most of the champagne corks being popped would be popped by Republicans.
I actually want him on the ballot because I think Biden would have a harder time winning against either DeSantis or Haley.
The reciprocal of your comment might be true:
If it were Biden who dropped dead would Democrats be popping most of those corks?
There are a lot of Democrats who would be happier if Biden weren't the nominee; my own personal choice is Gavin Newsom. I think overall Biden has been a good president but he has enough personal negatives that I'd prefer someone else.
But I think the level of animosity that mainstream Republicans have toward Trump is different from that. We don't hate Biden; we just think we'd be better off with someone else.
"my own personal choice is Gavin Newsom"
I don't love Newsom, but I agree with you that he i a better choice than Biden and would beat any Republican
"But I think the level of animosity that mainstream Republicans have toward Trump"
Realistically, NeverTrump Republicans are few enough that they can hardly be characterized as the mainstream. A lot of them have even given up on claiming to be Republicans.
Brett works so hard to make everyone he disagrees with a Democrat.
Brett, if you absolutely positively must engage in No True Scotsman, here’s a far more plausible application: the GOP was the subject of a hostile takeover by the Trumpists, which then proceeded to drive the true Republicans out of the party. The never Trumpists are the true Republicans trying to get their party back.
Now, that interpretation has its own problems, but at least it’s not the howler your version is.
I will agree that the GOP was subject to a hostile takeover by "Trumpists"; It was vulnerable to such a takeover because the GOP establishment are unrepresentative of the GOP base, and both the base and the establishment know it. It's easy for a conquering army to march in when the populace don't like their rulers to begin with.
The GOP has had a low level civil war going on since the late 90's, with the base trying to displace the establishment from power. The establishment kept beating it back, but the war just got hotter as a result.
So, yeah, Trump was an invading force, but an invading force welcomed by all but the rulers. Your "true Republicans" were a minority in the party as a whole all along, they were only a majority in the leadership at the federal level.
Yes and no. One of the things we’ve learned from Trumpists is just how nuts much of the base actually is. The establishment Republicans kept their worst impulses in check and actually cared about good governance. The Trumpists mostly just want to burn the place down.
It was, after all, Mitch McConnell who said that Trump probably cost the Republicans the Senate in 2020.
What was he going to say? "I cost us the Senate; I preferred to being in control of the minority to losing control of the majority."?
Well, in that, his actions were so loud it was hard to hear his words.
Probably? Both his strongly endorsed GA Senate candidates lost handily.
K_2,
Agreed. I think that a Haley (Pres) - DeSantis (Veep) ticket is likely to beat Biden.
There is essentially zero chance Republican primary voters would agree to that. Haley is near her ceiling, she's running as the anti-Trump candidate in a party that LIKES Trump.
She might end up somebody's VP if Trump doesn't secure the nomination, but she doesn't have enough support to even win a plurality. She's barely over 20% even here in her home state, SC.
I don't think she even ends up VP, though.
.
No, Brett. Chris Christie is running as an anti-Trump candidate (and Asa Hutchinson, if you can call what he's doing running). Haley is running as a pro-Trump, but-not-Trumpian candidate.
I liked Haley until I found out that her daughter married a black man. That means she's naturally going to be sympathetic to BLM lies about the police, as she'll have half-black grandchildren.
And what do you think of Viginia Thomas?
Thomas is an exception because he recognizes that the average black is a fuckup. Most blacks don't recognize that, and they side with their criminal genetic breathen, even if they're good people themselves.
It's much more likely Haley's son-in-law is a Michael Steele than a Clarence Thomas.
Please don't do this. This is our longstanding neo-nazi troll under a new handle. Either he's an actual one or he's pretending to be one; either way, there's no way to catch him in some sort of gotcha. Ignore him, mock him, whatever, but don't engage him as though he's a good faith commenter.
I am mocking him. He took the bait. As I suspected, he regards Clarence Thomas as the sacrosanct House Negro.
Do you think changing your name fools anyone?
My preferred candidate would not be "Cheater" Joe Biden, but any decent Republican (or Libertarian, should one somehow have a realistic chance). I'm not and never have been a Democrat, but I believe very strongly in the rule of law.
If the Constitution says we can burn the flag, we can burn the flag.
If the Constitution says we can own machine guns, we can own machine guns.
And if the Constitution says certain people who try to overthrow the lawful government can never serve in it again, they are forever barred from holding such office.
Those are just the Cliff Notes, but you get the gist.