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Efforts to Show that Exempting the President from the Scope of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment isn't Absurd Underscore that it Actually is
Harvard law Prof. Larry Lessig's attempt to prove otherwise misfires.
One of the issues addressed in the recent Colorado Supreme Court decision holding that Donald Trump is disqualified from becoming president again under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment is whether Section 3 applies to the presidency. A key reason to think it does apply is that ruling otherwise would lead to absurd results. As the Colorado ruling puts it, "President Trump asks us to hold that Section Three disqualifies every oath-breaking insurrectionist except the most powerful one and that it bars oath-breakers from virtually every office, both state and federal, except the highest one in the land." That sure seems absurd to me! And longstanding precedent disfavors interpretations that lead to absurd results.
In a recent Slate article, Harvard law Prof. Larry Lessig argues that excluding the president from Section 3 is not absurd. But his reasoning ultimately reinforces the very point he is trying to dispute.
Lessig's main argument is that the presidency and vice presidency are unique because state officials barring presidential and VP candidates from the ballot create an "externality":
[T]here is an obvious reason why the only two nationally elected officers would be excluded from its reach. It took mere moments after the Colorado Supreme Court's ruling to see why, as Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick threatened to remove President Joe Biden from the Texas ballot as retribution. You see, with every other officer excluded under the provision, the state official or state court effecting that exclusion would feel the political costs of their decision alone. If the Missouri secretary of state decides that Josh Hawley was an insurrectionist — for both advancing a plainly illegal theory under which Congress could reverse the electoral votes of Pennsylvania, and for rallying the rioters on Jan. 6 with his now-infamous salute — then Missouri and its voters will bear the political costs of that decision alone. Its act would not impose a cost on other states. But if state officials from blue states can remove red state candidates, or vice versa, that state bears no cost. Instead, it gains a political victory. In the language of economics, the decision imposes an externality on the nation, which is exactly the kind of decision that states alone should not be making for other states. Such behavior is obvious to lead to a tit for tat and a breakdown of our entire electoral system.
Lessig ignores the fact that presidential candidates are far from the only ones whose exclusion has an effects beyond the borders of their state. The same applies to members of Congress. They vote on legislation that applies to the entire country. If Missouri excludes Hawley from the ballot, and a Democrat gets elected senator as a result (or a less MAGA Republican), that impacts the entire nation, not just one state. MAGA Republicans across the country might lose out, not just those in Missouri.
If you object to excluding insurrectionist candidates because doing so might create externalities like this, that's not an argument for exempting the president. It's an argument against having Section 3 at all.
It's true, of course, that partisan state officials could try to manipulate Section 3 to advantage their party. But that's why Section 3 exclusions - like other electoral qualification decisions - are subject to judicial review. If state officials try to bar someone who is not actually disqualified under Section 3, that candidate can sue to overturn their decision.
It's also worth emphasizing that the purpose of Section 3 is to prevent a different kind of externality from the type that concerns Lessig: having potentially dangerous former insurrectionists wield political power. If voters - perhaps due to ignorance or partisan bias - elect such people to public office, the harm these officials might do will affect not only those who voted for them, but the rest of the country as well. Insurrectionists in office could prove to be a menace to liberal democracy throughout the nation. The enactment of Section 3 was based on the assumption that preventing this kind of extremely dangerous externality was worth the cost, including other possible externalities that cut the opposite way.
Lessig's externality theory is at odds with the fundamental reason why Section 3 was enacted in the first place. Excluding the presidency from Section 3 on the basis of arguments that imply we shouldn't have Section 3 at all doesn't make any sense. It would, in fact, be absurd.
Lessig also argues the framers of the Amendment didn't need to worry about former insurrectionists becoming president because Section 3 ensures that presidential electors will be loyal, since it specifically bars insurrectionists from that position, thereby ensuring that "the people who would elect the president were not themselves insurrectionists." I explained why this argument (previously advanced by Kurt Lash) is fallacious here:
This argument ignores the possibility than an insurrectionist former president could still potentially hold other offices, such as being a member of Congress or serving as a member of the cabinet…
In addition, there was no reason to think that electors would necessarily abjure supporting former insurrectionists for the presidency. Since Section 3 only covers former government officials of various kinds, ex-Confederates who had not held public office previously (of which there were hundreds of thousands) could still become members of the Electoral College—and some actually did. Furthermore, by 1868 (as still today), electors were almost always little more than ciphers for their parties, who could be reliably expected to support the party's nominee no matter what. It is highly unlikely that committed partisan Democrat electors (most former Confederates backed the Democratic party in the years after the war) would forgo supporting a former Confederate insurrectionist for the presidency if he were the nominee of their party.
Given how the electoral college worked by the 1860s and the ability of many ex-Confederates to become electors, it is implausible to assume that the president was excluded from Section 3 on the theory that electoral college would prevent ex-insurrectionists from getting to the White House.
Lessig also contends (again, following Lash) that Section 3 was supposed to apply only to Civil War-era insurrectionists, and there was no danger of one of them becoming president. But the text of the amendment is general, and in no way limited to Civil War insurrectionists alone. Moreover, in the 1860s, the Democratic Party was one of the two major parties, and it drew much of its support from ex-Confederate white southerners. Absent Section 3, there was every reason to think such a person could potentially win the Democratic nomination for president. And any winner of a major-party nomination has at least some plausible chance of winning the general election.
The absurdity argument is far from the only reason why courts should conclude that the presidency is covered by Section 3. I think the "ordinary meaning" rule, emphasized in the Colorado Supreme Court ruling, is even more compelling. But the absurdity point is also strong. Indeed, the two are mutually reinforcing. An ordinary person reading Section 3 would be unlikely to interpret it in a way that leads to absurd results, especially if there is a plausible non-absurd alternative.
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Lessig does not put it this way, but his point seems to be that whatever the legal enumerations of angel's on a pinhead, barring a highly favored candidate from a major political party cannot be good for democracy.
He doesn't put it that way, because that's a policy argument, not a legal one. Lessig is looking for a quasi-"economic" explanation for why the language actually used in Section 3 wouldn't be "absurd," if construed to exclude the president and vice president's offices, because he's trying to read his policy argument into the text.
Ilya eviscerates the argument in a sentence.
No Illya doesn't. Illya loves destroying democracy to save democracy.
Yes one senator or representative COULD affect the entire country, except that is unlikely as there methods to deal with that, and its entirely within a state. One state WOULD ruin other states opportunities.
It's a bad argument from Illya "TYRANNY YES" Solmin.
Don Nico
Perhaps.
But barring candidate with no supporters is completely unnecessary. So if this rule is intended to disqualify anyone, it must be intended to disqualify favored candidates.
That's right. It is something a banana republic might do. Or Venezuala, Brazil, or Pakistan.
Officers of the United States are typically -- and under the Blackman/Barrett Tillman theory universally -- appointed, not elected. That's their answer to your objection.
It would be "interesting," if Dan Patrick actually did get Joe Biden removed from the ballot.
I hate the idea of Trump being the GOP nominee. However, kicking any major party candidate off the ballot for disputed reasons, seems like a politically bad idea that will be viewed by millions as election tampering, whatever the courts say.
"However, kicking any major party candidate off the ballot for disputed reasons, seems like a politically bad idea that will be viewed by millions as election tampering, whatever the courts say."
This is an argument about bad vibes or bad policy that is being pushed by scores of pundits, including a number on the center left (like Lessig or Chait at NY Magazine). But the US Supreme Court is going to have to determine whether Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment disqalifies Trump as a matter of Constitutional law.
If the Court wants to avoid applying Section 3, it will need an escape hatch. None of the possible alternatives is ideal. Here is an exceedingly quick look at three top options for the Court's possible escape.
Option 1. Rule that Section 3 is not self executing and that an act of Congress is required to disqualify anyone from serving as President under the Fourteenth Amendment.
The problems with Option 1. Section 3 says that Congress can vote to lift a Fourteenth Amendment disqualification. It does not say that Congress must vote to impose one.
If you are worried about avoiding the appearance of tampering with democracy it is better to have Section 3 disqualification resolved by a trial-court evidentiary proceeding followed by appellate review up through and to the Supreme Court than to have a system where disqualification is determind soley by a vote of Congress.
Option 2. Rule that Section 3 does not apply to the Presidency.
The problems with Option 2. This is a technical, legalistic argument advanced by Josh Blackman et al. It turns on accepting that the President is not “officer of the United States” and/or the Presidency is not an “office, civil or military, under the United States.” This argument does violence to the common meanings (and origional public understanding) of the terms of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Colorado Supreme Court did a thorough job explaining why these arguments cannot stand.
Even if you think it is a close call, anyone concerned about bad policy or bad vibes should be disinclined to back a standard that puts the President above the law for the purposes of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Option 3. Rule the January 6 was not an insurrection.
The problems with Option 3. The Colorado Suopreme Court relied on an 1860 definition of insurection as "A rising against civil or political authority ... It differs from REBELLION, for the
latter expresses a revolt, or an attempt to overthrow the government, to establish a different one ... ." That sure seems to fit what happened on January 6 -- where the goal was to stop the peaceful transfer of power after the 2020 election. Those arguing otherwise effectively erase the destiction between insurection and rebellion -- insisting that, since January 6 was not a rebellion, it was only a protest or, at most, a riot.
Trump's lawyers are likely to tell the US Supreme Court that an insurection is something more than a riot but less than a rebellion, invite the Court to come up with its own defintion of what qualifies as an insurection for the purposes of Section 3, and insist that January 6 does not meet this definiation. The Court may accept this inviation. But doing so will require them to ignore both textualism and origionalism and to use a new, post hoc definition of insurection as their means of avoiding Section 3 disqualification.
It could find an excuse that with respect to a national office the issue is not justiciable. It is a political question and the CO SC's ruling is vacated
The political question doctrine isn’t the totemic incantation you are making it out to be here. Hint: it’s more than just the fact the case is “about politics”
I didn't need your hint. See the original point of Lessig. The cure is far worse than the disease.
That’s a prudential argument. You are misconstruing Lessig and to the extent he agrees with you- you are both wrong
That would be much worse, with the decision left to the Colorado Secretary of State with no possibility of review.
As I wrote above, it would be "interesting" if Texas found an excuse to remove Biden from its ballot.
The neo-originalists might be singing a different song.
Texas can always find an excuse. It's Texas.
The greater danger isn't that they might try, it's that SCOTUS might do as you wish and declare their attempt to be judicially unreviewable.
Okay, now what makes January 6th an "insurrection" for purposes of s.3, versus all the other violent riots of the past few years? Because I've heard almost nothing discussed publicly on that question. In various of those other riots, rioters stormed government buildings, interfered with the work of government, injured and killed government agents in the line of duty, and were verbally supported by some elected officials. To take perhaps the most dramatic and deliberately forgotten example, the "CHAZ" in Seattle was declared to be an autonomous zone outside the control of the USA, and its perimeter guarded by armed persons who controlled entry and exit from that perimeter. Either a lot of people need to be disqualified from running for office under s.3, or there is a blatant double standard being applied. That standard appears to go something like, "I know it when I see it, and I see it when Trump is involved."
Option 4. Except for offices where some inherent constitutional power already allows some body to determine qualifications, (As Congress can for its own members, or the Senate can voting on nominees.) due process requires a criminal conviction for a relevant offense for Section 3 to be invoked.
50-5 they say the Electoral College IS such a body in regards to the Presidency. But no state body is for any federal office.
A few quick probelems with Option 4. Section 3 triggers disqualification for anyone who "shall have engaged in insurrection." It does not say "shall have been convicted of engaging in insurrection."
Losing the right to run for or serve in the Presidency does not involve deprivation of life, liberty, or property. So, it is hard to read a due process requirement into Section 3. Even if a due process requirement is grafted on to Section 3 (and I conceed that there may be priudential reasons for doing so), disqualification is not a criminal penalty. Accordingly, due process would not require that a person's status as an insurectionist be established by the criminal-law "beyond a reasonab;le doubt" standard.
The Colorado Supreme Court found that, if there is a Section 3 due process requirement, the trial court's multiple hearings and evidentiary proceedings satisfied it. The U.S. Supreme Court is not likely to overrule this conclusion. Doing so would just kick the can down the road until some state court somewhere holds a more extensive civil trial on Trump's status as an insurectionist.
If you are putting the odds of the US Supreme Court applying Section 3 disquaification against Trump at 50-50, I would go further and say that there is a 60%-70% chance that the Court will NOT disqualify Trump. My point always has been only that there is no clean, clear, easy, comfortable, or fully defensible way for the Court to avoid disqualification.
My bet is that the Court will torture the definintion of "insurection" to come up with a standard that does not apply to January 6.
The Court also may be tempted to rule that the record from the Colorado proceedings was not sufficient to establish that Trump "engaged in" insurection. But that approach is problematic because it leaves open the possibility that subsequent state or federal proceedings could adduce further evidence of what Trump "engaged in." In contast, ruling that January 6 was not an "insurection" forcloses any further Section 3 challenge to Trump.
So, this moron had a "hearing", so I guess that means you support this, too? https://www.maine.gov/sos/news/2023/Decision%20in%20Challenge%20to%20Trump%20Presidential%20Primary%20Petitions.pdf
Going to be fun when GOP State Legislatures and SoS's start holding "hearings" about Biden giving "aid and comfort to America's enemy Communist China"
A few quick probelems with Option 4. Section 3 triggers disqualification for anyone who “shall have engaged in insurrection.” It does not say “shall have been convicted of engaging in insurrection.”
I realize that as a leftist you are unclear on the concept of "due process", but without a trial where you've proved that beyond a reasonable doubt, you can not honestly claim that they HAVE "engaged in insurrection".
That's why we say "aledged crime" before they're convicted, sh!t for brians.
Losing the right to run for or serve in the Presidency does not involve deprivation of life, liberty, or property.
Yes, it deprives him, AND his voters, of their liberty. You're really stupid, aren't you
The Colorado Supreme Court found that, if there is a Section 3 due process requirement, the trial court’s multiple hearings and evidentiary proceedings satisfied it.
Which was yet more crap from you delusional scumbags. The many deficiencies of the "hearing" have been detailed all over hte place
The U.S. Supreme Court is not likely to overrule this conclusion.
SCOTUS is likely to completely take this illegitimate decision completely apart, because there's not a single thing they got right
My point always has been only that there is no clean, clear, easy, comfortable, or fully defensible way for the Court to avoid disqualification.
Only if you're a corrupt moron.
For the rest of us:
1: Section 3 is not self enforcing. Section 5 clearly grants Congress the sole power to enforce it, and Congress took the 14th up on that
2: Section 3 clearly doesn't apply to the President
3: Only a delusional lunatic would claim that ANY part of Jan 6 was an "insurrection." Exp since the Biden Admin has yet to charge ANYONE with "insurrection" for their actions on Jan 6.
Go back to sniffing glue. Sure, it destroys your brain even more, but it's less stupid than what you're writing here
"That sure seems absurd to me!"
When I was in law school, I was taught that use of an exclamation mark in legal writing signified the author had a weak argument; that the author needed a crutch to support an unsupportable argument. That lesson seems evident here.
The absurdity here is arguing that on January 6, 2021 the Chief Executive Officer of the Executive Branch of the United States of America's government (i.e. , the head of the selfsame government) could lead an "insurrection" against that government. Trump WAS the government on January 6th. Definitionally, until Biden was later sworn in on January 20th, Trump's actions cannot be characterized as attacking the very government he headed at that time.
Don't bother with legalities or logic, Ilya's Leftist emotions are fully in control leading him to support the most maximally authoritarian positions possible. Once again, a left libertarian isn't a libertarian but a Leftist pushing the communist ideal without bothering to engage with the ramifications of all the intervening steps.
He's not a leftist.
He read the academic papers. You didn't even read the OP, did you?
Someone here is driven by tribal feelz, and it's not Somin.
If he read the academic papers, why did he so grossly misrepresent Lessig's externality argument, which is that the externality is the reduced likelihood of electing one's preferred candidate? As a resident of Virginia, I have no direct interest in who Texas elects to Congress.
Similarly, Somin's argument about "the purpose of Section 3 is to prevent a different kind of externality" is fully addressed by Section 3's first sentence. The drafters of the Amendment clearly were thinking about the presidency and vice presidency, and equally clearly only covered the electors thereof within its scope.
By Somin's logic, I would have a partisan interest in getting Democrats disqualified nationwide under Section 3.
That's right. A leftist libertarian Russian whose all-consuming hatred for Trump colors his views on all issues. He is anti-American at every opportunity.
Trump is not accused of attempting to become head of government on June 6th. It is an absurd argument to pretend, as your argument necessitates, that anyone is doing so.
The June 6th actions constituting the engagement in insurrection of which Trump is accused, is blocking through mob violence, constitutionally and statutorily directed Congressional action triggering the process that would remove Trump as head of government at Noon on January 21st.
I suppose your intentional absurdity seemed to make sense when you first read it, but I hope further thought allows you go understand just how ridiculous it actually is.
Trump is accused of encouraging a mostly-peaceful political protest. That's all. A free country would tolerate such protests.
"Moistly peaceful" - how much is "most? 55%? 60%?
You lot who keep repeating "mostly praceful" seem to forget that there is actual video we can all watch ourselves which show anything but peaceful protest.
St Ashli, clad in a gown of white samite and basking in celestial radiance, walking calmly and quietly through the halls of Congress as police ushered her through doors they held open for her, before being cruelly martyred for her beliefs by a Soros-backed special forces officer with a Barrett 0.50 rifle equipped with dum-dum bullets. And even as she expired, her last words were, "I died so ye all shall live under the Blessed Donald", and many were the MAGAts who were suddenly able to cast aside their crutches and wheelchairs and walk, And all gazed upon the scene and wondered.
No, the actual video has not been released. The Trump-haters on the House J6 committee released a few clips showing violence. They covered up the rest of the footage, as it did not help their anti-Trump case.
There are plenty of videos that have been released of the rioting.
It's notable that McCarthy did not release all the video footage to media in general, releasing it only to Fox. That strongly suggests that the video does not show hours of peaceful protestors walking around saying "om mane padme om"
McCarthy may be covering up something also. Until the videos are released, the selected clips are not really evidence of anything.
There were about 20,000 people protesting outside on the National Mall that night. About 1000 were charged for entering the Capitol building. So by any math, that sounds like a "mostly peaceful" protest to me, at least by BLM standards.
Certainly there can be such a thing as an unsuccessful insurrection, since the 14th Amendment was written in response to just such an event. The fact that Jefferson Davis never became President of the United States doesn't mean that he also didn't participate in an insurrection.
If Trump would have convinced some small fraction of the military to go down to the Capitol and kill all the Capitol police, take all of Congress hostage and declare himself Emperor for Life only for a few hours later some more of the military to show up and tell him he had to go back to the White House, that would seem pretty obviously to be an insurrection despite the fact that he was President at the time, no? I'm not convinced that Trump's actions on January 6 cross the threshold into insurrection, but it's absurd to argue that just because he was President at the time and that Biden eventually became President that it was impossible for him to be part of one.
that would have been a bona fide attempted coup d'etat
Jefferson Davis never attempted to become the president of the United States, so it's unclear what your point there was. The insurrection then was quashed, but was largely effective until the Civil War ended.
The rebels then wanted to secede from the United States. The closest modern analogue would be those "autonomous zones" from the summer of 2020 that leftists here insist were not insurrections and didn't disqualify anyone.
Inadequacy of forces and incompetence of execution are not defences to criminal acts. Mitigations, yes.
Trump is not THE government, didn't you learn about the 3 branches of government?
They really do think "l'état, c'est Donald".
On January 6, 2021, Trump WAS the head of state. He was the elected top representative of the people of the United States in their federal government. That's why the 14th Amendment carves out "officers" (and not elected officeholders) for its opprobrium. Section 3 makes no sense otherwise.
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Although I understand that Trump's rhetoric could've fooled you, "L'État, c'est moi" is not our system of government. Trump was the president. The presidency is the head of one branch of our government. It is not the government.
In making appointing presidential electors a state matter, the Franers expressly permitted states to impose exactly the sorts of externalities Professor Lessig complainS of. They are a feature, not a bug, of our constitutional system.
It’s no different from arguing it would be absurd that think the Constitution requires jury trials, because if it did then some ovviously guilty people would go free. Or arguing the Constitution can’t possibly provide for an electoral college, because that would mean the result might be inconsistent with what a pure popular vote would have.
The Framers considered these arguments and rejected them. They provided for a system that permits exactly the sort of “externality” Professor Lessig thinks bad policy.
Our Constitution would permit a system where “externalities” completely control the outcome, for example, where each state appoints electors who always vote for someone from the state, the matter always goes to Congress for lack of an electoral college majority, and Congress always picks between the candidates of the 2 largest states. Such a method of selecting a President would be as completely constitutional as our current one. States are absolutely entitled to consider only the state thinks best, or in its interest, in determing what Electors to appoint. Nothing in such a system woudl intrude on any rights other states actually possess.
That is, the outcome that Professor Lessig considers “a breakdown of our electoral system” is merely a different and equally permissable electoral system within the range of electoral systems the Constitution permits. There is no basis for the Judiciary to prefer one form over another. Professor Lessig is of course entitled to a preference, bit its a purely political preference, not a legal or constitutional one. It’s totally up to state legislatures to decide what to do with the electoral votes each state has. They can do whatever they want.
"bit its a purely political preference"
Indeed, that is exactly the point.
The objection is neither a legal or Constitutional one. Hence my choice of the word "excuse."
No, that is not the argument. The argument is to explain why President was left out of the list in the 14A.
Professor Lessig’s argument is that applying the 14th Amendment to the President, and particularly having different states reach different results about whether to do so, would lead to consequences he considers absurd. This is a pragmatic, atextual argument.
So my argument above, that the consequences Professor Lessig complains about are in fact not in the least bit absurd, are completely consistent with the Framers’ constitutional system, is directly on point. A constitution that permits state legislatures to determine how presidential electors are appointed lets these legislatures, or those they empower to enforce their rules, make the decisions involved based on whatever considerations they want, and political considerations are absolutely permissable. The fact that one state’s choices might be different from or have an effect on what other states do is part of the system, not an “externality” to it.
Colorado is entitled, in interpreting its own election law, to determine that Section 3 is incorporated into its election law and determine that it applies, as a matter of state law, to presidents when it comes to appointing its own presidential electors. It can do this whether or not any other state court would do the same, and whether or not any federal court would reach the same result as a matter of constitutional analysis.
"This is a pragmatic, atextual argument. "
I agree with that characterization, and I suggest that it is one that a justice with positivist or consequentialist legal approach might find compelling.
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The president wasn't left out of the list.
Yes he was. Presidential electors were included, but not the President.
Because he is not on the list.
The Civil War is over. Reconstruction is over. It is annoying to have some anti-American Russian lecture us on Civil War remedies. Scotus will prove him wrong.
Its about discouraging people from engaging in insurrection. Its not a good for only one insurrection amendment.
Somin's position is like an American saying that Russian Jews should be exiled to Siberia, as punishment for the 1917 Bolshevik revolution. We want to discourage Communist revolutions.
What a ridiculous overstatement of the case!
The point of 14.3 is clearly that now we've experienced an insurrection against the US, we think it's a bad idea that people who commit insurrections later become part of the government, so we'll pass laws preventing past and future insurrectionists from doing so.
They were quite capable of drafting an amendment that applied only to the Civil War. They didn't, for obvious reasons.
I assume you supported Trump's efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election
I supported Trump's efforts to make sure that the 2020 votes were lawfully and properly counted. No one tried to overturn an election, or commit an insurrection. Trump is charged with 91 felonies, but not those things. Nothing was remotely similar to the Civil War.
Nobody is saying that it was remotely similar to the Civil War but that doesn't stop people like you attempting to claim that this is what other people are doing. Nor was the Anglo-Zanzibar War comparable to WWII, notwithstanding that they were both wars.
The point is that Constitutional legislation DQs people on grounds of insurrection. It doesn't say,. "provided the insurrection killed more than X people or lasted longer than Y days". It treats them all as "insurrection" whether lasting 4 years and killing over 500,000 people or lasting a matter of hours with deaths in single figures.
Okay, but nobody has ever considered a bunch of unarmed political protesters, trying to make their voices heard, and insurrection. Not even Jack Smith.
American insurrections involve:
1: People with guns
2: Shooting lots of other people
So why the George Floyd riots might qualify as an "insurrection", nothing that happened on Jan 6 does
And pretending otherwise just marks you as a total lunatic
Okay sure but nobody engaged in insurrection so what's the point?
Why do you hate the constitution?
Why does Somin?
Well, Somin is "immigration uber alles", which is why he hates the rule of law, the US Constitution, and anything else that might get in the way of completely swamping out actual Americans is foreigners
So, the whole 14th Amendment is toast? Back to blacks aren’t citizens and all the rest of it?
We have laws about citizenship and against slavery and the rest. We also have laws against insurrection. If you want to punish somebody for engaging in or supporting and insurrection, use those first and then see whether you need extraordinary remedies.
One of those laws is 14.3. Duh.
So convict Trump under the statute that 14.3 was meant to make Constitutionally valid. You know, like 14.5 says to do.
Conviction is not required in the text. As the Constitution goes into specifics of whatr's required for a treason conviction, we can observe that evidently the drafters of 14.3 did not think it necessary to specify to the same degree of detail. And if they'd wanted to say, "convicted of insurrection" they could have said so.
As far as S5 is concerned, that if anything reinforces the point because it does not require Congress to act. It gives Congress the power to act if it wish to do so. In the mean time, nothing stops Colorado's SC from enforcing 14.3 consistent with Colorado's own constitution.
That's a fascinatingly novel argument that 14.3 is self-executing: the text doesn't say specifically, so an Internet nutcase gets to decide!
"Conviction is not required"
Who needs due process when you have a hate on against democracy!
Yes, you worthless piece of sh!t, conviction IS required.
Because until you have that conviction, you have no proof that he engaged in the crimes that you're accusing him of
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A14S3 is not "punishment."
"A technical win is still a win"
This is a pretty interesting discussion. My impression is that these sections of the 14th Amendment blur the line between matters that ought to be resolved through the political process vs. those that can be resolved through the courts. That may be a reason why (if memory serves) this is only the second time that these sections have been tried in the past 150 years. It may have been expedient at the close of the Civil War to have these sections, but are they useful outside that context? I'm doubtful.
One "non-absurd" reason I can imagine for excluding the President from the amendment is because the President is already covered by the impeachment process. In fact, I think it is arguably that the authors never intended insurrection to be adjudicated by the courts at all. It, like, impeachment, was never legally defined precisely because it was not intended to be a legal standard, but rather a political one.
The Confiscation Act of 1862 says that the same people who wrote and passed the Fourteenth Amendment did expect courts to adjudicate the question of whether someone "sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof". Section 2 of that Act is still law, codified at 18 U.S. Code § 2383.
And, specifically, they expected the courts to adjudicate it in a felony trial, not by some civil 'hearing'.
One point I've not seen brought up about this is that selecting the president/vice president line on a ballot is NOT a vote for those individuals. Rather, it is a vote for a hidden slate of electors, who are generally pledged to vote for those individuals.
Thus, the 14th amendment does not apply here unless the electors are charged with insurrection. The point at which the blockage should occur, if at all, is in the voting in the Electoral College.
I think the "ordinary meaning" rule, emphasized in the Colorado Supreme Court ruling, is even more compelling.
Then you're a moron
Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States
1: "President" was included in earlier drafts, but removed.
2: Do explain how the President "holds a civil office under the United States", but Senators and representatives do NOT. What's that, you can't?
For the historically ignorant (who are the only people who would make an argument as stupid as the one Ilya is pushing):
Section 3 was written to prevent ex-Confederates from being able to take office. It therefore focused on offices they might actually be able to obtain.
None of them were going to be elected President, because doing that would require a significant number of States from the Union side of the Civil War to vote for them, and that wasn't going to happen.
Just stop with the BS. Yes, Trump is an ass and a loser. No, he shouldn't be nominated for President again.
But that's up to the voters, not some self-validating "elite" douchebags
Do try to stop being such a douchebag
.
The presidency is an office. Legislators are not. HTH.
And your support for this claim is?
Senator Tim Kaine is pretty sure he holds an Office:
https://www.kaine.senate.gov/
So does every other Senator and Member of the House of Represnetatives