The Volokh Conspiracy
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You Might Want to Read More Sentences of Arizona v. United States
A response to Josh Blackman on the new Texas immigration enforcement law.
In his post below, my friend and co-blogger Josh Blackman writes that there is only one sentence of Arizona v. United States that you need to know to answer whether federal law clearly preempts the new state Texas immigration enforcement bill. Here's the sentence:
There is no need in this case to address whether reasonable suspicion of illegal entry or another immigration crime would be a legitimate basis for prolonging a detention, or whether this too would be preempted by federal law.
Josh reads that as indicating that Arizona does not clearly conflict with the Texas law. On his reading of the sentence, this is a question left open by Arizona, with Texas fairly raising an interstitial question ripe for litigation that could go either way.
But I don't think that's what the sentence says or means.
The power to detain a person to investigate a crime based on mere "reasonable suspicion" is just a power to very temporarily detain them. It's a Terry stop authority, giving officers, say, 20 or 30 extra minutes to check out what is going on. That power does not allow the government to detain someone for much more than that time, or to bring them to a new place. Under Dunaway v. New York, that kind of stop is an arrest as a matter of Fourth Amendment law, and that requires probable cause.
As I read that one sentence, all it did was leave open whether a state is allowed to add on that extra 20-30 minutes or so to investigate an immigration offense.
I'm not an expert in the new Texas law, but it does not seem to be a Terry stop law. It appears to authorize arrests, which is a different ball of wax in the law of criminal procedure. As I recall, arrests were dealt with in another part of the Arizona decision, Section IV(C), which ruled that the Arizona law allowing arrests for committing removable offenses was preempted.
If we're looking for the one sentence from Arizona to read on that issue, this one seems particularly relevant:
By authorizing state officers to decide whether an alien should be detained for being removable, § 6 violates the principle that the removal process is entrusted to the discretion of the Federal Government.
Of course, I wouldn't just read that one sentence. But Section IV(C) seems like an important section to focus on, not the one sentence about Terry stops.
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Search for the following: Judge rejects key points of Trump’s defense in NY civil fraud case in bad sign for former president
It's actually a good sign, as this Jewish piece of shit is making his impartiality so evidently clear that no one can think otherwise.
Some snippets are gold. So the state's experts are credible because they said what you want to hear, but the defendants' are just paid hacks. Fuck you kike. 6 MWE.
"It would be a “glaring flaw” to assume testimony from Trump accounting experts Eli Bartov and Jason Flemmons are true and accurate, the judge wrote."
"The case record proves there are many material misstatements on Trump’s personal financial statements, according to Engoron."
“Bartov is a tenured professor, but all that his testimony proves is that for a million or so dollars, some experts will say whatever you want them to say,” Engoron wrote. “By doggedly attempting to justify every misstatement, Professor Bartov lost all credibility.”
"Engoron also said he found the Attorney General’s expert on disgorgement credible and said that the banks that lent Trump money were injured despite defense claims that the bank’s loved Trump’s business."
Not kind or gentle, and shouldn't you be happier this close to Hey-Zeus's birthday?
Another data point why those claiming antisemitism is a problem of the left are full of shot.
False Flag
Tell us more about how American Jews are stabbing Judaism in the back by supporting Dems, Ed.
I don't think they're full of shit. But I do think they don't really want to grapple with how psychotically violent right-wing antisemitism is comparatively AND how far into the highest levels of politics those people have infiltrated.
Rando on blog versus Tlaib and the rest of the Squad and our so called elite colleges.
Obviously the rando is more of a threat!
Robert Bowers was a right-wing rando who talked like this until he wasn't.
The Squad supports Hamas. Who killed more, Bowers or Hamas?
Hamas. And Nick Fuentes openly supports the Nazis, wants to exterminate the Jews and had dinner with Trump. Who killed more: the Nazis or Hamas?
Oh and btw yesterday you were complaining about being labeled a liar, but here you are saying "The squad" supports Hamas. Assuming yo mean the original four please direct me to ANY statement by AOC or Ayana Pressley supporting Hamas.
Ill save you time. You can't. And you're a liar.
You are such a tool
Here. 30 seconds on twitter
"Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez@AOC
Dec 10
Shameful.
"The Biden Admin can no longer reconcile their professed concern for Palestinians and human rights while also single-handedly vetoing the UN’s call for ceasefire and sidestepping the entire US Congress to unconditionally back the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza."
The resolution did not call for release of hostages.
We know what side you are on, you just use more coded language then Teefah or Randal.
Look up the votes on H. Res. 894 too.
"The resolution did not call for release of hostages."
And you're a liar. That's not the same thing as supporting Hamas.
"We know what side you are on, you just use more coded language then Teefah or Randal."
You are a liar again. I'm on the side of not killing or harming people indiscriminately. But you wouldn't understand that because you're a bad person with bad morals. You wouldn't care if all 2,000,000 million Gazans were murdered. And I DARE you to prove me wrong by saying so. But we know you'll stomp away like a toddler and say you don't answer ultimatums. (although you have the temerity to demand such things of others). You won't do this because you are a pathetic coward who is actually scared of showing empathy online.
If all 2 million were murdered, I'd say that's a good start, although still leaving several billion worldwide.
Hey Bob: if you don’t condemn this immediately I’m going to call you a Nazi. That’s fair under your rules right?
Call me what you want. What good is it "denouncing" trolls here anyways.
AOC and the rest are members of Congress, what they say or don't say matters. You know they voted against Iron Dome funding a few years back too, use your puny brain to think about what the lack of Iron Dome would mean after 10/7 and the thousands of unguided missiles launched by Hamas.
Supporting a cease fire without a full and unconditional hostage release is objectively pro-Hamas. You don't care about the hostages at all.
I do. That’s why I supported the ceasefire that allowed them to return home and am skeptical of IDF training that just got three of them killed. I can say this because I am not bad person.
You cannot even say you are against mass murder. Because 1) you support it or 2) you’re such a pussy you can’t be anonymously empathetic online. And if you can’t do the latter it really calls into question your ability to behave morally and ethically when the stakes are closer to home. So pro-tip: you can lie and act like a toddler all you want here, but I wouldn’t act like this in front of the BPC.
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Are partisan dopes like Bob from Ohio equally outraged by people who flood tunnels after being expressly informed that hostages were in tunnels?
I just read that Israelis have turned harder toward the right recently. One more reason to consider them deplorable write-offs who do not deserve American support -- let alone at great and varied cost to Americans.
Most Americans do not support right-wing belligerents at home -- especially when those asswipes try to infuse government with silly, childish superstition that precipitates invidious discrimination. Why would anyone expect them to be willing to subsidize it elsewhere?
Israel has chosen its side of the American culture war. It has chosen the wrong side and the losing side, and must live (or die) with the consequences. Sounds like a stupid decision to me, but it should be their call, because it's their funeral.
Carry on, clingers. How much longer? That seems to be a problem for clingers in the United States and in Israel.
LTG...You live in a glass house.
"That’s why I supported the ceasefire that allowed them to return home"
Broken Hamas because the remaining women were all raped on 10/7.
"A U.S. official on Monday said that Hamas is likely holding back from releasing further civilian women the group kidnapped from Israel to prevent testimony on sexual violence committed against them.
State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller made the remarks during a briefing with the press, echoing the administration’s view that Hamas is to blame for ending a pause in fighting with Israel on Friday by refusing to release women and children the group is holding hostage."
This is the side you and the Squad defend.
A unilateral ceasefire before unconditional release of hostages means no hostages released, goodness you are dumb.
Hamas can release the hostages and surrender anytime it wants. Then there will be a real ceasefire.
“This is the side you and the Squad defend.”
Stop lying and apologize now.
Again you may think it’s fun to lie and behave unethically here, but disciplinary counsel will not appreciate it.
"disciplinary counsel will not appreciate it."
Oh dear, a threat to report me to disciplinary counsel. You actually think that disciplinary counsel will care a single bit about a blog argument. My, my.
"I would like to report a lawyer named Bob [no last name] was mean to me on the internet. Please sanction him!"
BTW, everything I said is an opinion based on my interpretation of your comments. So its not a "lie" because its not an alleged fact, its an opinion, like you calling me a "bad person" repeatedly. Do you not read the defamation cases EV posts?
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Anyone relying on Eugene Volokh's curation of posts would have a very warped and cramped view of things, especially with respect to defamation and freedom of expression.
That's probably why he inhabits the marginalized, disrespected, soon-to-be discarded fringe of modern American legal academia.
"You support Hamas" is a statement of fact. This is a lie.
And because you are not that bright I'll sketch this out very carefully: I'm not threatening to report you for a blog comment. I'm warning you that the attitudes that your comments reflect are the attitudes of an attorney who likely commits or is likely to commit misconduct. Lets go through this:
1. You display a cavalier lack of concern about due process and think the uncounseled criminal trials are "fair." This demonstrates two issues with your fitness to practice law. First it demonstrates your lack of competence. A lawyer has a duty of competence. One who thinks such proceedings satisfy due process or are "fair" cannot be considered competent to offer legal advice because they fundamentally do not understand the nature of such proceedings. Second, you have a duty of fairness to opposing parties and counsel. Your inability to grasp what constitutes fairness and justice makes it more likely you will behave unethically to another party.
2. You display a cavalier attitude toward ethics rules generally. For instance, when Pat DeWine refused to get off the restricting case you said it was fine. Even though the rule explicitly prohibits a judge being on a case where their dad would be a material witness. In addition to displaying an unfamiliarly with the Code of Judicial Conduct, you also expressed contempt for their application to your side. Lawyers who are unfamiliar with professional obligations and contemptuous of them are more likely to engage in unethical conduct.
3. Most importantly, you have an extreme inability to express remorse or shame even anonymously. The stakes are impossibly low here and yet you still can't do it. So what about when there are real world stakes and money on the line? Lawyers who cannot be shamed into better behavior present a unique danger to the public and are highly likely to engage in misconduct.
In short, you have the same attitudes as some of the worst lawyers I've come across: mean-spiritedness, lack of shame, contempt for rules. So be careful out there, these attitudes will not serve you or your clients or the public well. It's on you to improve your behavior. I'm never going to report you for anything (unless I have the misfortune of dealing with you), but if you are like this outside the blogs, no doubt someone ahs or will eventually.
This is the side you and the Squad defend.
The Squad was defending Palestinians. Being the not-racist person that you are I'm sure you're not making the error of confusing the people of Gaza with the actions of their current leadership.
Just like it's not the fault of Jewish people over the world, or even those in Israel, when the Israeli government expels some Palestinians in the West Bank off of their land so Settlers can move in. Even the Settlers themselves are probably pretty nice people, though many support some pretty unjust policies.
A unilateral ceasefire before unconditional release of hostages means no hostages released, goodness you are dumb.
Actually it means you can be pretty hostages won't be killed during the offensive and you now have a chance to negotiate for their release.
Continuing the offensive just means Hamas gets more desperate, and at some point they start executing hostages to create leverage.
Hamas can release the hostages and surrender anytime it wants. Then there will be a real ceasefire.
So you expect Hamas to give up its last remaining leverage and surrender? And this gets them what exactly? And you're the one calling people dumb?
Liar.
Lot of randos turned up on Jan 6th.
Fa
"as this Jewish piece of shit"
I love when people loudly announce, "My opinions are worthless and I should be blocked immediately."
I appreciate it. 🙂
Lots of that going around lately.
Deflect right, stretch to condemn left.
Great way to pretend your side has a monopoly on virtue and the other side are all antisemites.
His language wasn't the best, but he is right on the merits. The judge is biased. If this was a white judge making rulings like this with black defendants, you'd be outraged.
'His anti-semitism is a bit explicit but'
Lot of stalwart Oct 7th bomb-Gaza anti-semites left strangely unmoved by this.
Another clinger to whom Blackman, Volokh, and Bernstein will issue a partisan pass rather than expressing lathering outrage.
This blog's professors and its fans deserve each other. And the political and cultural stomping being applied to them by better Americans in the modern American culture war.
States have inherent rights to protect themselves, and more so when the federal government violates their own duties. Citizens, likewise, have inherent rights which Shall Be exercised whenever county, state, or federal government fails in their duties.
Quibbling over failed law theory "in these times" is professional malpractice and furthers citizen apathy. Or, one could strike comparisons to chess play - a board game of vast constriction even with over 4.59 ± 0.38 × 10e44 possible moves. Law is a board game, nothing more.
Indeed, I think Texas' legal strategy is to so highlight the federal government's, not failure to act, but actual malfeasance, (The federal government has graduated to actively assisting illegal immigration.) on immigration law enforcement, that the Court blinks, and decides that they can't really leave the states defenseless in the face of it. Or if this doesn't work, make the administration's determination to flood the country with illegal aliens so blatant that it drives the coming election.
Which is to say, it's not really a legal strategy, it's a political strategy.
'I think'
No you don't. It's part of the further rise of Trumpism as an explicitly neo-fascist movement based around rabid xeonophobic fearmongering, vicitmising the weak and vulnerable, and white nationalism. If you think I'm overstating things, I refer you to your own Great Replacement aplologia, as demonstrated in this very comment.
The Democrats are trying to enact the Great Replacement. Stop talking about it like it's a conspiracy theory, when it's exactly what the Democrats admit to doing.
There's that neo-fascist spectre of a threat to the purity of the race.
Only white countries are told that they have no right to remain white and must allow themselves to be replaced by foreigners. No one demands demographic replacement of India, China, Japan or Nigeria. Anti-racist is code for anti-white.
These are your fans, your target audience, and your defenders, Volokh Conspirators . . . and the reason your employers (at legitimate law schools) regret hiring you and your colleagues do not respect you.
There is no 'right to remain white.' No population is 'being replaced by foreigners' except places where rich foreign oligarchs are buying up properties for tax purposes.
That's a racial populism strategy, Brett. With some conspiracy sauce on top based on misreading some news stories.
IOW, blood and soil stuff.
I didn't mention race, you inserted that yourself out of your need for opposition to illegal immigration to be racist.
I know you and your white replacement nonsense so dunno why you're pretending race isn't in the mix.
Could Texas sentence illegals to chain gangs?
That would discourage a lot of this.
It's good to see you Prof. Kerr, as always.
Understatement is a sign of judiciousness, and I have a feeling that the absolute smackdown in this post will be lost on many of the people here. I enjoyed this immensely.
That said, I also understand why you don't post here very often, although I haven't seen you post on other places recently either.
Understatement can also just be a stylish stiletto.
Certain people have a muse in exasperation.
They are fun to follow.
He does post regularly, though not frequently, on Twitter.
And I share your appreciation for the tone of this post.
It seems like half of Orin's posts are to contradict things that Josh, in his characteristic manner, has confidently asserted to be true. Ilya will do that, too, from time to time. I wish the other conspirators would do so more often.
He also called out Randy Barnett about being 2020 trutherism curious.
Barnett was 2020 truther curious? I know he's a bad faith hack, but that's kind of surprising.
Don't have the access atm but will share come the next open thread.
I was so much happier when I could convince myself Randy's lunatic heterodoxy was just quirky good faith disagreement. Then I discovered his foaming-at-the-mouth tribal Twitter feed and my illusions decomposed like a Trump hooker in a shallow desert grave.
More important is the question involving why he posts here at all. He seemed to be better than this. His ideas seem to deserve better. So why does he associate with this white, male, disaffected, bigot-hugging, substandard operation?
Thanks. Twitter dot con slash orinkerr.
The problem is, reading it your way doesn’t get Josh to his forgone conclusion.
Exactly. To his credit, Josh is one of the few commentators and professors I know of who openly say that their analysis of a law's meaning is explicitly results oriented.
Well, but that does a true disservice to most of the readers.
You have to at least start with a descriptive analysis of what the law actually is before you move to the normative analysis of what the law should be. Blackman always skips the first step (or, usually, argues that his advocacy for a normative position is what the law is).
Take the most recent post, for example. If someone doesn't understand the law, or Criminal Procedure, or has read the actual case, they might believe that Josh is making a descriptive claim about what the law is. Instead, he is acting as an advocate only.
(In this, I am assuming that Josh actually understands what he is talking about. There have been many times when, in his desire to talk about everything, he shows that he has a limited knowledge in several areas and makes basic mistakes. So it is possible that he simply doesn't understand some issues that he speaks so confidently on.)
By "to his credit" I meant that it's good that Josh is from time to time open about caring about the ends more than the means. A lot of people pretend otherwise. You are, of course, right, Loki, when you point out that he often isn't open about this and is therefore intentionally misleading to people who aren't familiar with his work or with the issues.
That Prof. Blackman is a result-driven hack is bad.
That he takes these positions for ugly ends -- championing superstition and dogma over reason and science, flattering bigots of various stripes, clinging to the worst remnants of the culture war -- makes him disgusting.
And, thank goodness, disrespected by the American mainstream.
Yeah, jumping from "you can detain them longer" to "you can detain them in the first place" in Josh's analysis made no sense to me.
Doesn't the next sentence seem also leave open whether a state can arrest and detain someone for violating federal immigration law?
That being said, Texas SB 4 creates a new state crime rather than permitting Texas officials to enforce federal immigration law. And Arizona held you can't do that in the field of immigration.
Unlawful presence is not a crime and this part of the Arizona decision held that a state cannot arrest and detain people as the first step towards removal. I believe it still left open the question whether a state can arrest and detain a person who has entered illegally, which is a federal crime.
Islam is a caustic blend of regurgitated paganism and twisted Bible stories. Muhammad, its lone prophet, conceived his religion solely to satiate his lust for power, sex, and money. He was a terrorist.
Antisemitism has become hit-or-miss (temporarily) at the Volokh Conspiracy, but Islamophobia is always in fashion among these clingers.
Phobia is an irrational fear or aversion. Disliking homosexuals like yourself or Muslims is not irrational
I thought it was clear that the Texas law would be found unconstitutional if a court had jurisdiction to decide. The ACLU and the Texas Civil Rights Project have sued to block it. But who has standing to raise a pre-enforcement challenge? Is it enough to be brown skinned and subject to the kind of discriminatory enforcement that got Sheriff Arpaio in trouble?
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Who sued Arizona the last time around? Hint: his initials were the same as Uncle Sam's.