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Colorado Supreme Court Rules Trump is Ineligible for the Presidency Under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment
The Colorado court got this issue right. The case is now likely headed to the US Supreme Court.

Today, the Supreme Court of Colorado ruled that Donald Trump is ineligible to be on the ballot for the 2024 presidential election because he is disqualified by Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Section 3 states that "No person" can hold any state or federal office if they had previously been "a member of Congress, or… an officer of the United States" or a state official, and then "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." The Colorado court ruled that Trump "engaged in insurrection" because of his role in instigating the January 6, 2021 assault on the Capitol, and is therefore disqualified. This - and the lower court ruling it reviewed - are the first decisions that address the Section 3 case against Trump on the merits; several previous rulings in other states have dismissed Section 3 claims against Trump on varous procedural grounds.
I can't give anything like a complete analysis of the 213 pages of majority and dissenting opinions here. But I think the 4-3 majority got it right. Trump is indeed ineligible.
The per curiam majority opinion does an excellent job of handling all the major issues at stake: whether the January 6 attack was an insurrection, whether Trump's role in it was extensive enough to qualify as engagement, whether the president is an "officer of the United States," and whether Section 3 is "self-executing" (that is, whether state governments and courts can enforce it in the absence of specialized congressional legislation). In the process, the justices partly affirmed and partly overruled the trial court decision, which held that Trump did indeed engage in insurrection, but let him off the hook on the badly flawed ground that Section 3 doesn't apply to the president.
The case is now likely headed to the US Supreme Court. The justices may well hear it on an accelerated schedule, so as to resolve the case before we go too far into the GOP primary process. The Colorado Court has stayed its decision until at least January 4, to allow time for appeals to the US Supreme Court.
The 4-3 vote is not as close as it looks. Two of the three dissenting justices did so on the ground that Colorado state election law doesn't give the state courts the authority to decide Section 3 issues. They did not endorse any of the federal constitutional arguments on Trump's side. And these state statutory issues probably cannot be reviewed by the US Supreme Court, because state supreme courts are the final arbiters of the meaning of state law (with a few exceptions that do not apply here).
I think it's fairly obvious that the January 6 attack on the Capitol amounts to an insurrection, and the Colorado justices also concluded this is not a close issue:
[F]or purposes of deciding this case, we need not adopt a single, all-encompassing definition of the word "insurrection." Rather, it suffices for us to conclude that any definition of "insurrection" for purposes of Section Three would encompass a concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power in this country.
This is an important point that I have tried to highlight in some of my own writings about the case. January 6 qualifies as an "insurrection" even under a fairly narrow definition of the term that is limited to the use of force to take over the powers of government. We don't need to rely on much broader definitions advocated by some legal scholars.
The Colorado Court didn't address the argument that there was no insurrection because the rioters and Trump sincerely believed he won the election, and therefore thought they were acting to protect the Constitution. But, under that reasoning, most of the ex-Confederates whom Section 3 was originally enacted to disqualify would also have been exempt, since they sincerely believed the secession of the southern states was legally authorized by the Constitution (and they had far better legal arguments for their position than Trump for his).
As I see it, the hardest issue raised in the case is whether Trump's involvement in the insurrection was extensive enough to count as "engaging" in it. On this question, the justices affirmed the detailed and compelling analysis of the district judge, much of which rests on factual findings that can only be reversed for "clear error." They also emphasized this important point:
As our detailed recitation of the evidence shows, President Trump did not merely incite the insurrection. Even when the siege on the Capitol was fully under way, he continued to support it by repeatedly demanding that Vice President Pence refuse to perform his constitutional duty and by calling Senators to persuade them to stop the counting of electoral votes. These actions constituted overt, voluntary, and direct participation in the insurrection.
As I pointed out in a recent Bulwark article about the case, this goes beyond encouraging violence (as Trump did before the attack) or failing to try to stop it. It amounts to using the attack as leverage to try to force Congress to keep him in power. Using a violent insurrection in this way surely qualifies as "engaging in it," even if Trump's other actions fell short of doing so. Even if this somehow still falls short of "engagement," this and Trump's other actions surely at least gave "aid and comfort to the enemies" of the United States.
The court also gave a thorough and compelling explanation for its rejection of the argument that the president is not an "officer of the United States" covered by Section 3. Here is a key excerpt:
When interpreting the Constitution, we prefer a phrase's normal and ordinary usage over "secret or technical meanings that would not have been known to ordinary citizens in the founding generation."District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 577 (2008). Dictionaries from the time of the Fourteenth Amendment's ratification define "office" as a "particular duty, charge or trust conferred by public authority, and for a public purpose," that is "undertaken by . . . authority from government or those who administer it." Noah Webster, An American Dictionary of the English Language 689 (Chauncey A. Goodrich ed., 1853); see also 5 Johnson's English Dictionary 646 (J.E. Worcester ed., 1859) (defining "office" as "a publick charge or employment; magistracy");United States v. Maurice, 26 F. Cas. 1211, 1214 (C.C.D. Va. 1823) (No. 15,747) ("An office is defined to be 'a public charge or employment,' . . . ."). The Presidency falls comfortably within these definitions…..
The preference for "ordinary meaning" is a standard tenet endorsed by most originalist judges. The quote from Heller to this effect is by the late Justice Scalia, a major icon of originalist jurisprudence.
And it's pretty obvious that the ordinary meaning of "officer of the United States" includes the holder of the most powerful office in the federal government! As the Colorado Supreme Court puts it, "President Trump asks us to hold that Section Three disqualifies every oath-breaking insurrectionist except the most powerful one and that it bars oath-breakers from virtually every office, both state and federal, except the highest one in the land. Both results are inconsistent with the plain language and history of Section Three."
The opinion also addresses the argument that the presidency was excluded because it wasn't specifically listed, but some other positions (e.g. - members of Congress) were:
It seems most likely that the Presidency is not specifically included because it is so evidently an "office." In fact, no specific office is listed in Section Three; instead, the Section refers to "any office, civil or military." U.S. Const. amend. XIV, § 3. True, senators, representatives, and presidential electors are listed, but none of these positions is considered an "office" in the Constitution. Instead, senators and representatives are referred to as "members" of their respective bodies.
I would add that senators, representatives, and electors are less clearly officers than the president, because they do not have individual authority to issue orders to subordinates, a point I expounded on in my Bulwark article.
The Court similarly addressed the issue of whether Section 3 is self-executing. The key point here is that every other part of the Fourteenth Amendment is considered self-executing, despite the fact that Congress can provide for additional enforcement through its power to enact "appropriate" enforcement legislation under Section 5. There is no good reason to exempt Section 3 from this general principle:
The Supreme Court has said that the Fourteenth Amendment "is undoubtedly self-executing without any ancillary legislation, so far as its terms are applicable to any existing state of circumstances." The Civil Rights Cases, 109 U.S. 3, 20 (1883). To be sure, in the Civil Rights Cases, the Court was directly focused on the Thirteenth Amendment, so this statement could be described as dicta. But an examination of the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments ("Reconstruction Amendments") and interpretation of them supports the accuracy and broader significance of the statement….
There is no textual evidence that Congress intended Section Three to be any different…. Furthermore, we agree with the [plaintiffs] that interpreting any of the Reconstruction Amendments, given their identical structure, as not self-executing would lead to absurd results. If these Amendments required legislation to make them operative, then Congress could nullify them by simply not passing enacting legislation. The result of such inaction would mean that slavery remains legal; Black citizens would be counted as less than full citizens for reapportionment; non-white male voters could be disenfranchised; and any individual who engaged in insurrection against the government would nonetheless be able to serve in the government. government, regardless of whether two-thirds of Congress had lifted the disqualification.
Justice Samour, the only one of the three dissenters who based his position on any federal constitutional issue, argues that Section 3 cannot be self-executing because making it so would deprive candidates for office of the "due process of law." But the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments only provides a guarantee of due process before a person can be deprived of "life, liberty, or property."
Disqualification under Section 3 doesn't threaten any of these. Loss of eligibility for holding various types of public offices pretty obviously doesn't threaten anyone's life or property rights. And it isn't a threat to liberty, either. No one claims that the Twenty-Second Amendment deprives people of "liberty" merely because they become ineligible for the presidency if they have already served two terms.
The Supreme Court has held (wrongly in my view) that a degree of constitutional due process is required for deprivation of some types government benefits, particularly those that provide essential needs, such as welfare benefits for the poor.
Eligibility for the presidency isn't an essential need in the same way. If Trump is no longer eligible for the presidency, he isn't going to starve or become homeless. And even when it comes to deprivation of vital welfare benefits for the poor, the Supreme Court has held that due process requires only an administrative hearing, not a "judicial or quasi-judicial trial." The five-day trial held by the district court in the Colorado case in which both sides presented extensive evidence and expert testimony easily meets any plausible due process requirements for a case like this, even if we assume that the Due Process Clause applies (which I think it does not).
I am not qualified to comment on the Colorado statutory issues raised by the other two dissenting justices. To me, it would be strange if the law did not give state courts the power to adjudicate cases over Section 3 disqualification, just as they routinely consider other candidate eligibility issues. But I am no expert on Colorado election law, and therefore might be missing something. I will only reiterate that the federal Supreme Court probably lacks the power to review the Colorado state court's resolution of these issues of state statutory law.
The same point applies to the Colorado court's conclusion that, under state law, candidates ineligible for the presidency are barred from appearing on primary ballots, as well as those for the general election.
More can be said. But this post is already too long, and I will stop - for now. I will probably have more to say as this case moves on to what is likely to be review by the federal Supreme Court.
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All of the 7 judges were appointed by Democraps, and two of the four are women. I hope they get cancer in their nasty ovaries.
That comment is enough to earn a MUTE
You're slow, I had him muted so long ago that I forgot why I muted him.
Not even a shout out to the dissenters? LOL!
“ this and Trump's other actions surely at least gave "aid and comfort to the enemies" of the United States” — as does voting or advocating to cut Pentagon’s budget, or criticizing Israel, etc etc — this provision seems so easily abused as to be meaningless, no?
Sure. When Don Corleone tells Peter Clemenza that the family would be better off if someone wasn’t there, he’a just expressing an opinion.
Sonny telling him that he didn't want to see Paulie around here anymore.
.
This guy is still welcome at the Volokh Conspiracy (with the other racists, gay-bashers, antisemites, misogynists, white supremacists, Islamophobes, xenophobes, white nationalists, and advocates for exterminating -- with graphic detail -- non-conservatives); Artie Ray is still banned.
I once wondered why UCLA put up with this.
(Cough) bullshit (cough)
Somin is a pathetic traitor. He hates America and wants to turn it into the shithole Soviet place he left.
DEPORT SOMIN!!!!
Somin does not believe in nations or borders. He has his tenure and thinks his position (and his comfortable life) are safe. But if this all goes to hell, law professors like Somin will deserve a large share of the blame.
How powerful he must be!
I also like the putting 'safe' opposite 'large part of the blame.'
You making a list, dude?
Yes, Somin is consistently anti-American in all his opinions.
Actually the Colorado SC did Trump and the GOP a favor.
This wasn't going to be the last ballot access case and by deciding it this early it tees it up for SCOTUS.
Either way deciding it early is in the GOP's benefit.
Jack Smith isn't the only one who can ask SCOTUS to expedite a decision, and usually the court moves pretty fast on cases affecting an impending election. They want the voters to decide with a minimum of court meddling.
A minimum of court meddling would deny cert on the basis of the Political Questions Doctrine, and let the Colorado decision stand. Which would also do a favor for the GOP (and the nation), while getting the constitutional question right.
The big mistake here would be for the Court to rescue Trump because the Court fears political upheaval. That would be outright constitutional usurpation by the Court, and create the pernicious precedent that to avoid upheaval the Court has power to constrain the sovereign. It would be a big step toward making the Court sovereign instead of the People—which would suit Trump fine, of course.
A minimum of court meddling would deny cert on the basis of the Political Questions Doctrine, and let the Colorado decision stand.
Only Lathrop logic could lead to the conclusion that a court barring a very popular candidate (for better or worse) from being on a ballot equates to "a minimum of court meddling" in an election.
I guess the Colorado supreme COURT is a political branch now.
Of course in fact it is, like all courts these days, but not in theory.
Regardless, it's difficult to fathom the stupidity required to conclude that given the choice of a court disqualifying a candidate from a state's ballot vs a court not interfering with an election in that or any other way it is the former that represents "minimum court meddling" in that election.
If decided on the basis of the PQD, it would necessarily vacate Colorado's decision and leave it exclusively to the Colorado Secretary of State with no avenue for judicial review. You can't PQD to uphold a state court merits decision - or at least, such a thing has never been done to my knowledge and is outside the established scope of the doctrine.
The Constitution also does not clearly assign administration of ballot access to a particular official or even branch (indeed, I don't think the Constitution requires the states to have an executive branch at all, as impractical as that might be). And it's clearly judiciable in the sense that a decision can provide relief.
I don't see the doctrine as a good fit, and it leads to a bad result: Plenary power over ballot access by individual state officials who obtain and hold their offices in ways that vary by state.
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You're using terms you don't understand. This bears none of the elements of a PQ.
You're just illustrating even more than usual how incoherent and undeveloped your sovereignty theory is. If the people are really sovereign, how would the Supreme Court — any court — telling them that they can't vote for who they want to — not constitute constraining the sovereign?
Well of course Sovereign means exactly what Lathrop intends it to mean, nothing more, nothing less.
Kazinski, on questions of sovereignty in American Constitutionalism I tend to follow the lead of founder James Wilson. Here is his rejoinder to your comment, which he seems to have anticipated by centuries:
There necessarily exists, in every government, a power from which there is no appeal, and which, for that reason, may be termed supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable . . . Perhaps some politician, who has not considered with sufficient accuracy our political systems, would answer that, in our governments, the supreme power was vested in the constitutions . . . This opinion approaches a step nearer to the truth, but does not reach it. The truth is, that in our governments, the supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power remains in the people. As our constitutions are superior to our legislatures, so the people are superior to our constitutions. Indeed the superiority, in this last instance, is much greater; for the people possess over our constitution, control in act, as well as right. The consequence is, the people may change constitutions whenever and however they please. This is a right of which no positive institution can ever deprive them.
And which part of that says that a court gets to tell the people who they can vote for?
Noscitur, the part which tells the court it doesn't get to second-guess the 14A, which is the voice of, "a power from which there is no appeal, and which, for that reason, may be termed supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable."
Lathrop, did you read the quote you linked to? Answer: no. Did you understand it? Answer: LOL, no. Wilson is saying that the constitution isn't the power from which there is no appeal. (The 14th Amendment is part of the constitution.)
In what way does the PQD advance the will of the people particularly? It just says that certain government actors can ignore laws sometimes and the courts can't do anything about it. Laws, I'll remind you, created by the people's representatives, or even by the people directly through referenda or constitutional ratification. I don't mean to suggest it's bad doctrine (it's not, except when it is), but it's not thing that advances populist ideals. It's a legal fudge factor, no more, no less.
FROM AN ANNOUNCEMENT
The Colorado Supreme Court yesterday removed Donald Trump from the state’s presidential ballot because it found that his conduct amounted to "insurrection" under the XIV Amendment, but only after fully protecting his due process rights by providing him with a trial at which he could and did present his evidence and fully challenge the evidence against him.
This was in accordance with the legal analysis of public interest law professor John Banzhaf whose views differed from those of many other legal scholars.
On the one hand, many legal scholars, including conservative ones such as William Baude, Michael Stokes Paulson, and Judge J. Michael Luttig, as well as liberal ones such as Lawrence Tribe, have stated that Section 3 of the 14th Amendment - which bars former civilian officials from holding office if they “shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion” against the United States government - is "self executing," and prohibits Trump from running for president again, and therefore from even having his name listed on the ballot.
In other words, they argued that no trial or other type of evidentiary hearing was required before he could be removed from the ballot.
On the other hand, many other legal scholars argued that whatever Trump did or may have done does not and cannot disqualify him from serving, running, or appearing on the ballot, especially in this context where Trump has never been found guilty of any charge of insurrection. In other words, there is no legal way in which Trump could be kept off the ballot.
But Professor Banzhaf, who played a role in removing former President Richard Nixon from office, offered a middle-ground analysis. Yes, he argued, the amendment could be used to keep Trump's name off the ballot, but only if it were proven in an evidentiary proceeding that he engaged "in insurrection or rebellion.”
The reason why a state cannot lawfully remove his name from the ballot in the absence of an adjudicatory due process hearing (a court trial) is that the Fourteenth Amendment provides that"nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
Under virtually any reasonable interpretation of this constitutional provision, prohibiting someone from running for office, or more properly nor permitting him to acquire Electoral College votes in a state, would be to deprive him of a liberty and/or property interest which then would require a due process hearing.
According to media reports, the legal analysis Banzhaf submitted to officials was instrumental in New Hampshire; see, e.g.:
Documents Reveal New Hampshire Review of Trump’s Ballot Access Came After Outside Legal Analysis which reported:
"The top election official in New Hampshire, which traditionally holds the nation’s first presidential primary, announced that he would consider banning former President Donald Trump from the ballot one day after a George Washington University law professor suggested that he call a special panel to make the determination. With no conviction on a charge of insurrection, Trump has a right to due process before a state could remove him from the ballot, argued John Banzhaf, a public interest law professor at George Washington University. Banzhaf sent a memo to Scanlan on Aug. 28, with a copy to New Hampshire Attorney General John Formella, also a Republican. The two GOP officials announced the next day they were reviewing the matter." [emphasis added]
Banzhaf's legal analysis had also been featured in The Vermont Daily Chronicle: Connecticut is 13th state considering Trump ballot ban and was also filed with the appropriate authorities in his formal legal request that Colorado keep Trump off the ballot entitled "Formal Legal Petition, Complaint, and Demand Pursuant to Section 3 of ARTICLE XIV."
The Colorado Supreme Court made it clear that it relied upon the trial providing the necessary due process in its decision to bar Trump from the ballot, saying: “We conclude that the foregoing evidence, the great bulk of which was undisputed at trial, established that President Trump engaged in insurrection.”
Indeed, the need to provide Trump with due process was mentioned in many places in the court's opinion; emphasis added:
"He [Trump] has never specifically articulated how the district court’s approach lacked due process. He certainly does not contend that he was prejudiced because the district court moved too slowly or failed to resolve the case in a week. He made no specific offer of proof regarding other discovery he would have conducted or other evidence he would have tendered. Moreover, his arguments throughout this case have focused predominantly on questions of law and not on disputed issues of material fact."
"That the form of section 1-1-113 proceedings reflects their function—to expeditiously resolve pre-election disputes over an election official’s wrongful act—does not mean these proceedings lack due process. the form of section 1-1-113 proceedings reflects their function—to expeditiously resolve pre-election disputes over an election official’s wrongful act—does not mean these proceedings lack due process."
"To find the provision self-executing under the circumstances, he [Trump] argued, would be contrary to due process because it would, “find the provision self-executing under the circumstances, he argued, would be contrary to due process because . . . "
"once without trial, deprive[] a whole class of persons of offices held by them.” Id. at 26. ¶102 Chief Justice Chase therefore concluded that the object of the Amendment— “to exclude from certain offices a certain class of persons”—was impossible to do “by a simple declaration, whether in the constitution or in an act of congress . . . . For, in the very nature of things, it must be ascertained what particular individuals are embraced by the definition, before any sentence of exclusion can be made to operate.” Id.
The activist law professor says he feels vindicated that his legal analysis apparently proved to be the correct one, and he hopes this ruling will encourage similar challenges and similar rulings in other states.
Nuke Colorado.
L, as they say, OL.
This isn't going anywhere but SCOTUS; your impotent rage is...well, impotent.
To be sure.
Then one wonders how long it would take for SCOTUS to announce a decision, and to what extent delay would cause panic in the RNC pressuring it to turn to another candidate.
If the delay is four months, and if 2 or 3 or more states pile on by barring Trump, it would seem that Trump becomes an obvious lost cause.
There was another "Lost Cause".
It did not turn out well.
We may well learn what insurrection really means next year.
Indeed it did not.
I just hope a few more states pile on quickly
You want courts to just remove the first choice of at least 48% of voters? You hated blinds you.
It is not hatred Bob. It is disgust. The US could do much better that a moral reprobate and a feeble, foreign policy disaster.
Don't be so quick to throw around the word hate. Save it for the pro-Hamas crowd
Your disgust blinds you then.
"The US could do much better that a moral reprobate and a feeble, foreign policy disaster."
Sure but Biden is already president.
Durr
Trump is going to lose one way or the other, such as being convicted of even one felony.
Biden loses to Haley and maybe even to DeSantis.
Republicans can do much better. And America can do even better than two aged misfits.
I would take Trump to win the nomination at the current odds of 1-3. And given the consistency of the polls, if the election were held today, Trump would beat Biden. Biden has work to do.
"Trump is going to lose one way or the other, such as being convicted of even one felony."
Maybe, maybe not. He was going to lose in 2016. That Access Hollywood tape killed him.
Using lawfare to stop him is very bad for the country. If he is losing anyways, best to beat him by votes.
He didn't accept defeat by votes last time. He tried to install himself as president depsite losing. He had help from a violent mob.
It is not hatred Bob. It is disgust. The US could do much better that a moral reprobate and a feeble, foreign policy disaster.
Which raises the question, "Then why don't we?" Maybe it's just my cynicism increasing with age combined with false (or at least less perceptive) impressions formed when I was younger, but it seems to me that nearly every election cycle results in the two major parties putting forth lower and lower quality candidates. I've never been so naïve and/or idealistic that I've succumbed to the belief that anyone who has ever run for in my lifetime was a truly righteous AND highly competent individual, but many of them struck me as at least competent and principled enough to accomplish (to the degree possible under the circumstances) what it was they claimed they wanted to accomplish, regardless of whatever their other character flaws might have been.
You're correct. "Why don't we?"
Are you assuming the decision hasn't already been stayed pending appeal?
Why would I being assuming that?
But Trump's lawyers have announced that they will file. I only assumed that SCOTUS will take the case. In which circumstance, the CO Court already said it will stay the decision until SCOTUS rules.
What's the mystery?
We'll see if this venue of kicking Brandon off the ballot remains viable.
As someone who loathes Biden, I would be pleased if SCOTUS took its time and delayed its ruling until June of 2025. Trump is probably the only Republican who could lose to Biden.
Polls say the American public aren't going to get fooled again.
There goes Trump's entire re-election strategy, then.
Actually the Colorado GOP is already taking steps to unilaterally stay the decision.
They are going to a caucus based system to select their delegates. So at least to the primary the decision has been mooted.
Or Trump becomes a very dangerous man.
If you figure he'll be the tough guy on the cellblock, you've been spending too much time scrolling through those "Trump as Captain America and Superman" photoshops at 4chan.
Trump is a flabby, old, big-mouthed, racist, boorish asshole. He'll be lucky to keep his teeth for a month in prison even with the Secret Service in the next cell.
Well, if this country falls apart and goes into a new civil war or revolution, I hope that all the pro-establishment hacks end up at the guillotine. A more just result would be to let them live but confiscate all of their possessions and let them live long, painful lives before they and their families die in penury.
A new civil war or revolution? Led by a bunch of keyboard warriors against the United States Armed Forces?
Yeah, right!
Many of the 'armed forces' would be to busy getting sex changes, abortions, and diversity training to engage in combat within the USA.
"I hope that all the pro-establishment hacks end up at the guillotine."
Ah, yes, the Khmer Rouge approach: Kill everyone who knows how to do things and then wonder why you're all so hungry and nothing works anymore.
Boy, am I going to enjoy pissing on the grave of your right-wing political preferences. I already have a couple of Thomas Hardy bottles waiting for the celebration.
Nuke yourself you putz
How does this Blackmanesqe self-aggrandizing propaganda square with the fact that the Supreme Court has expressly said that officeholders do not have a property interest in their offices, that offices are trusts, not property?
And even if it did, wouldn't the ability to challenge the decision afterword in state or federal court satisfy due process?
David, he may have a liberty interest.
'I might be convicted of crimes after due process' is not a liberty interest.
I don't think you articulated that quite right. I assume you are in a hurry.
Better lawyers than you have claimed that he has a liberty interest in being on the ballot and therefore is due better due process.I have no opinion about it.
If we're going to define "insurrection" as a political protest, I'm afraid we'll be opening the door to state courts removing any candidate they like. In Ilya's case, that's clearly Trump, will of the voters be damned.
I'm no Trump fan but SCOTUS will rightly overturn this very, very dangerous precedent.
Surely you don't mean politicians who participated in certain mostly peaceful protests at federal buildings are now insurrectionists.
Given they were part of and financially enabled a movement that actually declared secession how can they not be?
We aren't going to define insurrection as a political protest.
No, but you'll define blacks burning down restaurants as "mostly peaceful protests."
Would refusing to appear for a subpoena be insurrection under this definition as well? It IS interfering with the conduct of Congress.
You all are the ones trying to broaden the definition of insurrection here. You think that doing so will help excuse Trump by making what he did not seem so dangerous.
Violence was used to threaten Congress as it was going through the final formal proceedings to declare who won the presidential election. The clear goal of that violence was to stop them from declaring that Biden won. That was an insurrection under any definition you can reasonably imagine.
This all ranks with the most dramatic events in our history that threatened the basis of our republic. Other than the Civil War, I can think of few other events that called the constitutional order so strongly into question.
This gotcha works if only democrats defied subpoenas. Which, well, LOL.
Oh come on, you fell right into his trap. Hunter Biden defied a subpoena. And, as everyone knows, Hunter Biden is Joe Biden. Therefore…
It is always somehow (D)ifferent when (D)emocrats break the law.
I submit it is a more dangerous to countenance zero consequences in the face of an attempt to halt the counting of votes by intimidation (not just disrupt, mind you).
Especially as not a single person has been charged with "insurrection."
"He's guilty of a crime no one committed."
Yeah, no. Decision was clearly wrong. Supreme Court will stay it, and Trump will be on the ballot (for better or worse). The requirements for Presidential eligibility are clear. Ambiguity in the Fourteenth Amendment will be construed in favor of the right of the public to vote for the candidate of their choice. I suspect there will be a per curium opinion issued staying the case. I suspect, at most, two dissents from the stay, but most likely, no dissents. If it goes to the merits and is not mooted, I would expect 8-1 or 9-0 reversal. Majority (at least 6) will indicate it does not apply to the presidency. Concurance of two or three will suggest the clear and convincing standard was correct and was not met even if it did apply.
clearly!
I suspect!
I suspect!
I would expect!!
Just thought I'd mention, en passant, that the Obama-Obama-Biden panel of the DC Circuit Court of Appeals did exactly what I said they would do on the Trump gag order.
The only remaining question is whether their tiny cosmetic adjustment will be enough to dissuade the SCOTUS squishes from getting involved.
Your partisan goggles sure save on the legal analysis.
And yet they predict the future with dazzling clarity. Though as I mentioned before, predicting the future is so much easier if you pay attention to the past. You shoud try it some time.
Better trust you as to the accuracy of your cynicism over legal analysis, I guess!
“Though as I mentioned before, predicting the future is so much easier if you pay attention to the past.”
People who study the past for a living tend to be skeptical of its predictive power.
But to the extent it is predictive: conservatives like to enable fascists and everyone regrets it.
Beryl Howell and Tanya Chutkan are biased pieces of shit. The former is a white Jew married to a black, and the latter is a Jamaican black.
Your typically juvenile mockery notwithstanding, we'll see soon enough if the accomplished Mr. Leen is correct.
Its such an odd snark. Leon is predicting the future so he uses hedge language, which is a very normal thing to do.
Since no one was even charged, much less convicted, of insurrection, the ruling is specious on its face and credibly insurrection itself.
Why would the 14th Amendment allow 2/3 of both houses of Congress to un-convict someone of "insurrection"?
It's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about.
How can the people have a right to vote for their candidate if the candidate won’t respect the outcome of the vote?
Did Trump leave office on 1/20?
He respected it.
True, he did what the Democrats have done for literally every electoral loss since 1992, so we need to ban them from numerous ballots.
The Dems won't stop until they can get the GOP and all other political parties outlawed.
Bwahahaha.
Do you think they will stop there?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna72917
LTG, every village has their idiot. You found one.
They haven't tried to overturn an election via violence and fraud yet. Where will the people who did do that stop
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna72917
State legoslatures can appoint presidential electors in just about any manner they want. They can require signing a pledge as a condition of appointment. That pledge can say just about anything the state legislature wants it to say. If a state wants to, it can only appoint electors who pledge to support candidates with law degrees. It can impose just about any qualification it wants. It can certainly oy appoint electors who pledge to support candidates who haven’t engaged in insurrections if it wants.
Supreme Court cases regarding Congressional elections have nothing to do with Presidential elector appointments. A state legislature can appoint the electors itself if it wants and not let ordinary citizens have any say in the matter at all if it wants. It can let voters pick between two candidates of its choosing. It do just about anything it wants. Of course it can impose qualifications.
This is all a great argument for doing away with electors entirely. If there is no consensus to change the way electoral votes are used, we could at least make it so that states have to have a process for allocating its electoral votes that is not subject to such arbitrary possibilities.
My suggestions:
1) A state must allow its electorate to choose.
2) A state must designate a single office holder to be the one to sign the certification of the state’s votes.
3) That official will only have discretion according to laws passed by the legislature.
4) The legislature’s role is in passing those laws ahead of its people’s vote. It may not change the laws or the results in any way after the first citizens cast ballots
Your #1 would require amending the constitution. If you're going to do that anyway, you might as well just do away with electors.
Ambiguity in the Fourteenth Amendment will be construed in favor of the right of the public to vote for the candidate of their choice.
Nope. That just adds ambiguity. The 14th Amendment is a sovereign decree, expressing the joint will of the People. The Court has no more power to constrain that, or to meddle with it, than it would have to amend the Constitution unilaterally.
For the Court to overturn that part of the 14A, to give Trump another chance—including another chance to subvert an election and empower a minority among the voters—creates a giant three-way ambiguity, about whether the Court is sovereign, the People are, or Trump is.
The 14th Amendment is a sovereign decree, expressing the joint will of the People.
The People did not have a say over the 14th Amendment. Women had no say. Indians had no say. It was passed by elected politicians who may or may not have been reflecting the views of their constituents.
It's a valid constitutional provision, which in the United States (unlike in some states) does not require or ask for the People's say.
And just because something's in the Constitution doesn't mean courts can enforce it.
You are so afraid of We the People.
Do you cringe every time you see the preamble? I am really puzzled by this attitude.
Agree. 9-0 reversal. Only the most partisan Trump-hater can agree with removing him from the ballot on some silly Civil War rationale.
He and his supporters keep threatening civil war, so maybe not that silly.
Yeah! The guys that wrote the 14th Amendment only wanted it to apply to Confederates. And they figured that it was so obvious, they didn’t bother to include that in the text! They totally were okay with men in the future breaking their oaths to defend the Constitution by using or supporting violence against the government. They could be trusted still. I mean, they’ll swear not to do it again!
Ironic that the heirs to the political party that supported a real insurrection now want to use the insurrection clause to keep a potential nominee for the heir to the political party that defended the Union off of the ballot.
The dissents go only as far as to question whether the "expedited" procedure in the Colorado statute accorded defendant-45 adequate due process. The majority details the expedited case management orders and that five day trial developed the record. The dissent implies that none of that happened. It is unlikely that the Supremes will analyze the Colorado statute in terms of whether expediting a case and having a trial is or isn't due process for a candidate qualification challenge.
I wonder what, "due process," the dissenters thought is owed to parties who flout Constitutional decrees? Does it extend to empowering a court to modify the Constitution on behalf of the flouter?
What the fuck is a "Constitutional decree"? Is that more Lathrop history?
He doesn't know either. He's just repeating what the voices in his head are telling him.
Michael P, it is any utterance from the jointly sovereign People to constitute, empower, or constrain government. The Constitution itself is a decree. The amendments are decrees. Election results are decrees.
It is a bedrock principle of American constitutionalism that the sovereign People acting jointly enjoy power to act at pleasure, without constraint by anyone, including any judge in any court.
They buried the lede right at the end:
That's a wee bit of a bait and switch from not affirmatively listing him on the ballot, and is liable to cause a bit of... friction if it stands.
This comment appears to misunderstand what a write-in vote is. You can’t just write in whoever you want and have the vote count. Write-ins are for candidates who, for one reason or another, qualified after ballots were printed. Any write-in vote fore any non-qualified candidate would already be invalid.
You mean all my votes for Willie Nelson weren't valid?
That's a nice effort at a post-hoc rationalization, but my statement stands that it's a bait and switch by the CO Supreme Court: the entire litigation below concerned only certifying Trump's name to the primary ballot under CRS 1-4-1204, and this appellate opinion was the first to breathe a word about extending it to write-ins.
CRS 1-4-1205 regarding the counting of write-in votes is short and to the point:
So timely file a form and pay money -- no certification required by the SOS, which was the supposed "wrongful act" undergirding this entire fiasco. In that same vein, you'll also note there's no challenge mechanism as there is in 1204 for actual placement on the ballot, which is why the CO Supreme Court had to engage it a bit of extra judicial activism to truly ensure mass voter disenfranchisement.
Your comment misunderstands what write-in votes are: They are the last lingering remnant of the original right to vote, which, if you had it, was the right to vote for anybody you damned well pleased, and the government had no say in who you could vote for.
Sure. But the government has absolutely been empowered by the sovereign to disregard ballots cast for unqualified candidates. To do that is no more than a ministerial duty, pursuant to government's power to administer fairly all elections.
Ministerial duties don't require nearly as much thought as went into this opinion.
Every time you say the government has been empowered by the sovereign, the question arises: Exactly HOW do you distinguish between the government being empowered by the sovereign, and the government just usurping some power from the sovereign?
The supporters of this decision want to be able to allow the sovereign to deny any government benefit to any person or organization that violates the priorities of the sovereign. If your religion won't officiate at same sex marriage, then your religion is not allow to form corporations or own property. Too bad.
Help us out with an experiment to prove you’re correct, Brett. Next year go and write in now-30yo Charlie Kirk’s name for president and then hold your breath until you see the result cross your tv screen. Then come back and let us know how long that took.
That may well be true, Brett, but almost every state has election law which specifies that only certain candidates are eligible to receive write-in ballots, and they are listed somewhere in the polling place. A write-in vote for anyone else is not counted.
.
Um, no, it isn't. The reason he's not being listed on the ballot — if that stands, of course — is because he's ineligible to be president. If he's ineligible, why would they count write-in votes for him any more than they'd count write-in votes for Vladimir Putin or Mickey Mouse?
Could you write-in someone who is 30 years old?
No. No, you could not. And the people who wrote in the 30-year-old candidate's name would have their ballots ignored.
This is like that. Except, instead of requiring an age of 35, the requirement is "has not engaged in an insurrection." Since Trump fails that test, ignoring write-in ballots with his name is appropriate.
Unless Congress removes his disability, of course.
Could happen?
On the zdue Process issue, I think the presidency is different in a manner that disfavors Mr. trump’s case. State legislatures have plenary authority over the manner of appointing Presidential electors. They could appoimt them themselves if rhey want. I think this plenary power gives them authority to add qualifications to appear to appear on the ballot. In addition to, even instead of, making elector candidates take an oath that they will support the candidate of a particular party, they can just as well make them take an oath that they will only support a candidate with particular individual qualifications, and if they don’t swear to vote only for such candidates, they can’t be appointed as electors.
In otherwords, cases holding that state legislatures can’t add to the qualifications of congressional candidates simply don’t apply to presidential elections. Because state legislatures have plenary control over elector appointments, they absolutely have power to set whatever additional qualifications they want.
So the US Supreme Court need not concern itself whether Section 3 is self-executing. The Colorado legislature has authority to provide that people who violate Section 3 - as Colorado defines it, not as US courts necessarily would - can’t be on the Colorsdo ballot for President. And it has authority to provide for an abbreviated proceeding to determine whether or not such a violation occurred.
Recall that RFRA was strike down as applied to the states because Congress did not have sec 5 power to reinterpret the meaning of religion through the due process' rights clause. Same goes here. CO legislature will be spanked for this.
But Article I, Section 1, Clause 2 explicitly gives states plenary, practically sole power over the appointment of presidential electors, so this situation doesn’t even remotely resemble RFRA. Colorado’s interpretation of Section 3 could be completely wrong as a matter of federal law and it wouldn’t matter, because the Colorado legislature has independent power to disqualify a candidate from its ballot. It could pick electors pledged to a candidate of its choosing itself. It could nominate its own candidates and let voters pick between them. It doesn’t have to involve political parties at all.
They could disqualify every GOP or Dem candidates that might try to run. In a totally partisan fashion?
They could try, but the laws would probably be struck down on other grounds like equal protection.
This is a straightforward due process issue, and the Court will probably rule against the Colorado supreme court on that basis: They have applied to somebody the legal consequences of a criminal act, insurrection, without having taken the necessary step of convicting them of that criminal act.
The Court is likely to reject the notion of a 'self-executing' Section 3, and demand an actual criminal conviction for insurrection before somebody can be disqualified on the basis of it.
I realize this is not how Section 3 was administered immediately after the Civil war. The Union did a lot of things immediately after the Civil war that stink on ice. In particular, they didn't wait on ratifying the 14th amendment before disqualifying insurrectionists. It was actually done under the confiscation acts, where it wasn't just an exercise of Congress' power to determine the qualification of its own members.
So their disqualification of Confederates can't be claimed to be an exercise of Section 3!
Brett, do you have any legal authority whatsoever that a criminal conviction is required to trigger disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3? Any statute(s)? Any judicial decision(s)? Any learned treatise(s)? Any law review article(s)?
Anything at all other than result oriented ipse dixit?
Still waiting, Brett.
Due process. You can't just ad hoc administratively create a process for a "self-executing" provision of the Constitution. That's entirely the point of requiring a criminal conviction.
If state legislatures had codified something to adjudicate the question, which included due process (not a "when did you stop beating your wife?" proof that you're innocent), then a criminal conviction wouldn't be necessary. But they haven't here. It's a a partisan trial judge's "finding of facts" which likely won't survive Brandenburg scrutiny for causation with anything riot related.
There is nothing in the Constitution requiring a criminal conviction to invoke 14s3.
Many other provision - including all other ballot eligibility criteria - are self executing.
.
What's another name for that? Oh yeah: due process.
Absent a true adversarial hearing on an objective legal definition, with a presumption of innocence and burden of proof, this is just a judicial bill of attainder.
Yes, Section 3 does not require a criminal conviction. But absent any implementing legislation to define a process that meets due process, that's all you're left with.
Otherwise you're opening the door for any MAGA election official to start disqualifying Democrats who publicly supported BLM rioters. Norms norms norms norms! You can say Trump encouraged a mob to interfere with a peaceful transfer of power all you want, that doesn't make what he did insurrection. I say this as someone who have never voted for him and would be happy to see him disqualified. Just not like this.
You've been pointed before at the Confiscation Act if 1862. Section 3 thereof is the clear predecessor of and basis for Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, and by its text requires conviction of the predicate offenses. That law could not constitutionally add qualifications for federal office, so it had to be later constitutionalized.
So not the text, this other law with different text.
If Section 3 was based on this law, wonder why they stripped out the conviction bit? That would have required an affirmative act beyond merely copying the law.
Sure seems like the Framers explicitly didn't want a criminal conviction as a requirement this go-round!
Probably for the same reasons they didn't write "treason" either: for brevity, with a disappointed expectation that future Americans would have more sense than you.
Ah yes, brevity.
Slam dunk textual analysis right there.
Where's your textual basis for thinking the original public meaning of 14A was "let a SoS or a state court in a civil proceeding decide", hoss?
The way other eligibility criteria and 13A operate.
Noted originalism scholar Will Baude did a big paper on it. I have come to know that reading and thinking is not your jam, but it answers a lot of your comments pretty quick.
You'll have to work harder if you expect any of us to be convinced, Gaslight0.
Utter failure to engage with the first line of my comment, even.
Good times.
Haha "brevity." That's hysterical.
Precisely. Section 3 of the 14th amendment was written largely by the same people who had enacted the Confiscation act, just as they had written the 1866 Civil rights act.
Both measures were enacted prior to the 14th amendment, and it was widely understood that they were constitutionally dubious due to the lack of any constitutional text permitting Congress to enact them.
The 14th amendment, echoing their language, was intended to remedy that weakness before the judiciary returned to normal operation and had a chance to take notice of it and strike them down. You might say it was an enabling amendment after the legislation, rather than the usual enabling legislation after amendment.
The Confiscation act required a conviction. It's my position that the 14th amendment incorporated that act's due process requirement, rather than being self-executing.
It's true that Congress disqualified Representatives and Senators elected out of the Confederate states, without bothering with any trial, but they didn't do this on the basis of the 14th amendment, (Which didn't exist yet!) or even the Confiscation act, but instead as an exercise of their Article 1 power to determine the qualification of their own members.
The self-executing Section 3 is a myth, created to justify denying Trump due process.
How does it deny Trump due process, when he has access to state and federal courts to challenge the decision?
And what about the argument in the opinion that all other civil war era amendments were self executing? And that if they weren't self executing, slavery will be legal again etc... ? And the precedent they cite that says the terms of the amendment are self executing when the controversy at issue is plainly covered by the language of the amendment itself? And that enabling legislation (under sec 5) is therefore not needed?
The "due process" argument was already addressed and dismissed by Somin. Didn't you read it?
No, he didn't. He used to read such things, but turs out a proper defense of Trump is knee-jerk and means you avoid engaging with actual arguments.
Trump doesn't ask his defenders to think too hard.
I've read Somin's arguments, and I think they fail.
You haven't posted about them.
At all.
Actually, you're describing The Resistance Trump haters, who are knee-jerk about accepting anything that will get him.
I'm old enough to remember people noticing a couple of blue mail boxes being removed was proof that Trump was trying to sabotage mail-in voting in fall 2020.
I know you are but what am I is truly an incredible own. I am wrecked.
We only talk about the bad election conspiracies. Not the good ones.
Oh you're so clever Sacastr0! Even though what I said was nothing of a "I know you are...". Again, you're projecting because you've already decided Trump is guilty, and therefore the ends justify the means. I've come to realize that people who insist Section 3 applies are mainly those who've decided Trump is guilty (just like the first impeachment) and therefore will cling to anything that can be used against him. I say this as someone who never voted for him and wants him to go away.
Just like the Dobbs, if something is wrong (like Roe), or unsupported (like Sec 3 being self-executing absent a criminal conviction) they are just wrong. That's my argument. You can't hear it as sufficient, because you've decided something else is true.
Due process cannot be satisfied by any court coming up with its own definition of "insurrection" to apply, absent legislation. This isn't the common law at play here. There's also a jurisdiction component, for a court at a different level of our federal system, adjudicating an action outside of its jurisdiction, with no federal law authorizing it. I realize people like you want to say Section 3 gives a state that authority. I might agree with that, if that state's law specifically codified what that insurrection act might be. Absent that, all another state court can do is recognize the actions of other jurisdictions, such as a criminal conviction for insurrection. Or the birth certificate or residency status of a candidate, if we're talking about general candidacy qualifications.
Finally, again, to the merits, Brandenburg v Ohio is Trump's friend. Whether you or I like it or not. It would not have been a defense in a Senate impeachment trial, but it most certainly is relevant here. Even if you get all the way to pinning an insurrection charge against him, it doesn't survive as a matter of law, and no Section 3 doesn't repeal the First Amendment and its jurisprudence to adjudicating insurrection, like some super-duper constitutional provision (may my United States senator rest in peace). Baude and anyone else making such arguments, that the Bill of Rights doesn't apply, are simply wrong. They are the ones twisting the Constitution into pretzels carving out exceptions. Philosophically, to avoid such exceptions to smooth convictions, is why the Founders explicitly defined treason in the Constitution. If the framers of 14A had reflected further on that, maybe they would not have been so cavalier about insurrection. I think they thought their enabling legislation provision sufficient, and contemporaneous legislation and practice demonstrate that. But some of those provisions have subsequently been repealed and an insurrection criminal offense passed in their place.
If Prof. Somin were more terse and less tendentious, I'd read his posts all the way through. As it is, I find reading his posts all the way through excessively time-consuming and aggravating (and not particularly edifying). As (former) Stanford Law School Associate Dean Tirien Steinbach would say: the juice just isn't worth the squeeze.
"dismissed by Somin"
Is Somin on the Supreme Court? Then his arguments are just that, arguments. People can disagree.
Saying Somin addressed them is the same as Brett saying he's got a different argument.
It's not whether someone says it, it's whether the argument is any good. Brett has the better argument here. That you guys don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not a legitimate one.
Brett didn't have a different argument; he has an old argument addressed in the OP.
Repeating yourself and not engaging with counterarguments is pretty boring. Wouldn't you say?
Yes, that's what you've been doing it me. There, I finally gave you a "I know you are but what am I?"
Numerous common-law torts - wrongful death, fraud, more - involve matters that can also constitute crimes. Lots of statutes, from traffic laws to securities laws and more, let government choose to proceed civilly or criminally for the same conduct. Moreover, the writ of Quo Warranto is a common-law writ older than the United States that has often been used to determine whether or not people are qualified for office. We have a long history and tradition of using civil procedures to decide qualifications for office, not just on matters like whether the person is actually a citizen, state resident, and such, but also on matters like whether the person committed disqualifying misconduct.
The issue here is not qualification, but whether a particular disputed set of actions is disqualifying. That's what some of us are bothered about (and not whether the presidency is an office of the United States under the section 3).
Given all the facts publicly known to date, I don't believe anything Trump did qualifies as insurrection, even under any common law understanding. Especially because Brandenburg v Ohio sets a pretty high bar on the relation between speech and follow-on conduct by others.
I realize that is unconvincing for many who hates Trump, because those people are invested, really really really want to believe he's guilty of crimes. I hate him too, but I love our Republic more, and destroying even more norms is terrible for its health.
So no, objective facts like citizenship/residence are not of the same nature as whether an individual committed a disqualifying act, which is subjective and arguable.
Do you know who solves disputes? Courts.
You can call the court wrong, but you can't pretend they are not doing their job just because you don't like it.
The problem is that there was a contested trial and the court found that under any definition; Trump's acts met the definition of insurrection. That was part of the Court's fact finding - which Trump's lawyers barely attempted to refute. I.e, they didn't dispute the specific acts (or failures to act). They argued the facts couldn't legally amount to insurrection. Given the undisputed facts made by the trial court, the Colo Sup CT was bound by those facts. Trump's defense was quibbling over semantics and legal arguments instead of proving he didn't do what the 14th amendment sec 3 prohibits.
Trump intervened in the suit and had all the ability to present counter-facts to rebut the factual findings presented by the plaintiffs and simply failed to do so. That is now biting him in the proverbial rear.
Yes, Trump's lawyers were arguing, as a matter of law (those semantics) his conduct didn't satisfy the evidentiary threshold. THAT is the problem is here. Personally I'm willing to accept everything the plaintiff/state claims. It doesn't meet the threshold for insurrection. This is not to say that what I'm about to say requires support, but no other individual has been criminally charged with insurrection. A rather odd state of affairs.
Perhaps this disconnect is because people are trying to apply a civil liability standard: if Trump's behavior was even a 1% contributor to the breaching of the Capitol, that makes him 100% legally responsible. That may be true, but that doesn't make him "guilty" of insurrection. This is the problem with not having legislation implementing section 3. Courts applying ad hoc standards to a grave constitutional provision.
I promise you, this won't come down to due process. A trial is more than enough process for this situation. Trump isn't facing criminal penalties.
It's also unlikely to come down to the admissibility or reliability of evidence, since SCOTUS hates to disturb findings of fact. Also, the evidence was generally uncontested.
So how will they do it? I think they'll go for the technicality: the President is not an officer.
Second choice is that the Predident didn't "engage" directly enough.
Third choice is an analysis whereby 14/3 gets limited, in practice, to the Civil War, making it a dead letter.
Fourth choice is some random good-for-this-ride-only get-out-of-jail-free card for Trump, a la Bush v Gore.
If one is desperate for a way to dodge, I suppose one might rely on the "officer" argument. But it's so incredibly mindbogglingly stupid that I don't think SCOTUS would do that.
"The presidency is not an office, even though it is repeatedly described that way" — or, alternatively, "The president is not an officer, even though he fills the office of the presidency" — are not serious arguments, even if Blackman and Tillman write a fifty part screed about it.
It's silly but not that silly. The Presidency is an office, for sure. But there are lots of offices that aren't occupied by officers. The Chief of Staff for example. There's really no presumption that offices and officers go together.
Absolutely. The power to pick the electors themselves would let them do things like pick two candidates of their own choosing and have the voters pick between them as their only available option. Both could be from the Democratic party if a state legislature would like.
Or they could have a Soviet style election and let voters vote, but only for a single candidate. Nothing in the Constitution prevents it.
That's not right.
States cannot put additional qualifications on who can run for President.
They get to decide how the election is held (i.e. operates) in their state, but they cannot decide who is qualified. Qualifications are explicitly defined in the Constitution.
If the Constitution does not disqualify a person and they meet all requirements, a state cannot forbid them to run. State laws cannot override the Constitution.
This is why states cannot require candidates submit tax returns or anything other than what's ministerially necessary (i.e. register by a certain date) to operate the election.
"On the other hand, as Justice Story observed, “the states can exercise no powers whatsoever, which exclusively spring out of the existence of the national government, which the constitution did not delegate to them.” 1 Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States §627 (3d ed. 1858) (hereinafter Story). Simply put, “[n]o state can say, that it has reserved, what it never possessed.” Ibid."
"The federal offices at stake “aris[e] from the Constitution itself.” U. S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U. S., at 805. Because any state authority to regulate election to those offices could not precede their very creation by the Constitution, such power “had to be delegated to, rather than reserved by, the States.” Id., at 804. Cf. 1 Story §627 (“It is no original prerogative of state power to appoint a representative, a senator, or president for the union”)."
Article I, Section I, Clause 2 is a complete and plenary delegation of the power to direct the appointment of presidential electors to state legislatures. The state power involved indeed arises out of delegation by the federal constitution, exactly as you say.
So...a state could refuse to assign electors to any portion of votes from drop off boxes weeks beforehand?
I wanna know how deep this plenary power goes. It sure got brushed aside easily in different circumstances.
The Due Process Clause prohibits a legislature from distorting the results of an election if it decides to hold one.
But it can do two things:
1. It can pick the candidates for the election if it wants. That doesn’t affect the election process. It could have a Soviet-style election with a single candidate of the state legislature’s choosing on the ballot if it wants.
2. It can make the election completely advisory. It can meet afterwards and pick the electors itself, deciding whether or not to falling follow the voter opinion, as long as it sets the procedure up in advance.
No.
The state cannot pick who the candidates are. They cannot deny a candidate a place on the ballot if they meet Constitutional requirements.
I think this is a good argument. The main question as I see it, is whether the Colorado legislature did in fact do what the Colorado Supreme Court said it did.
The key line from the ruling is :
"We conclude that certifying an unqualified candidate to the presidential primary ballot constitutes a “wrongful act” that runs afoul of section 1 -4-1203(2)(a) and undermines the purposes of the Election Code."
But in fact this is judicial ipse dixit - there's nothing in the code that says that putting a candidate on the ballot if you doubt that their statement of intent is correct is a "wrongful act."
Nevertheless, it seems doubtful to me that SCOTUS would want to intervene to overrule something which appears to be a judicial overreach on Colorado state law. Overreaching on state law is the sort of thing that state supreme courts do daily. And politically - which will be very important to Roberts, Kavanaugh and Barrett - why intervene when it could make no difference to the Colorado result ? The right leaning Justices are all very much for "states rights" on elections. So I think Trump loses at SCOTUS, possibly by a wide margin.
But even if he won, the Colorado legislature could easily adjust its election law to state explicitly what the Colorado Supreme Court plucked from its ipse dixit.
Looks like a good scheme for other states to try, if they want to keep Trump off the ballot. Pretty sure the Wisconsin and Pennsylvania Supreme Courts would bite.
Trump's counter, I suppose, in states he could actually win, would be to put Ivanka on the ballot instead.
SCOTUS can easily overrule on a number of grounds while accepting how Colorado state law is interpreted by this decision.
They could say 14.3 is not self executing, and thus due process was violated. They could say due process was not afforded for some other reason (e.g., no jury trial). They could say 14.3 doesn't apply to Trump. They could even rule on the merits that Trump did not engage in an insurrection.
The former two imply this application of Colorado law as interpreted by this decision violates the Constitution. The latter two imply there was no "wrongful act" under Colorado law as interpreted by this decision.
This is why the Colorado Supreme Court will be overturned:
“and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President.”
The Constitution says that the House chooses in the event of a tie. Thus, the House could say that he did not engage in insurrection and overrule the Colorado Court.
If there is a tie and the House picks, it wouldn’t be overruling Colorado’s decision in any way. The election would be over without Trump on the Colorado ballot. The House would simply be picking the candidate of its choice.
Under what scenario do you envision an equal number of electoral votes, and how does that remotely relate to whether Donald Trump engaged in insurrection here?
Please show your work.
Disqualifying Trump from the ballot is intended to assure that he won't get EC votes from that state, but instead that somebody else will.
Either the Democrat wins in those states as a result, or the non-Democrat EC vote is divided, resulting in nobody having a majority, and it going to the House.
At that point the count on Trump not being nearly as popular among establishment Republican office holders as he is with Republican voters. They'll hold the House vote by secret ballot, and Trump loses states where the voters wanted him.
The House only votes on ties in the electoral count vote if in the US as a whole. A situation where no candidate gets a majority in a stste is a pretty common one. There have been many elections with third-party candidates with enough votes to matter in at least some states. What to do is determined by state law. But generally speaking, the plurality candidate is picked.
The House has nothing to do with it. The state’s electoral votes get certified and counted same as any other situation.
The House votes in any case where nobody gets a majority of the EC votes. This isn't about whether the winner in Colorado is a plurality winner, but the fact that the Constitution does not allow plurality EC winners. Disqualify Trump from even 1 or 2 states, and even if Republicans carry those states with some other candidate, it won't give TRUMP a majority of the EC, so it would go to the House.
Where they will certainly try to make the state delegation votes secret ballot, so that Republican House members are free to vote against him without their constituents knowing, and voting them out at the next election.
Of course the constitution allows plurality winners. Happens all the time. This is basic stuff.
Saying Colorado can do what it wants because states control who gets to go on presidential ballots and can set qualifications beyond the federal constitutional ones would let the US Supreme Court uphold the Colorado Supreme Court’s decision, without deciding whether Mr. Trump should be disqualified from all state ballots.
Tjey don’t have to decide things on this basis. But they could.
One thing that the CO Supreme Court sidestepped was that the state had tried to impose term limits on its members of Congress. This was struck down by the US Supreme Court for impermissibly adding requirements for the offices beyond those in the Constitution.
What does Colorado 's having previously attempted to impose term limits on members of Congress have to do with whether Donald Trump is or is not qualified to be President?
And in any event, not having engaged in insurrection or rebellion is a requirement for office specified in the Constitution. See, U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779, 787-88 n.2 (1995).
It helps to read a SCOTUS decision before citing it.
As noted above, Presidential elections are very different from Congressional ones. The constitution set up an electoral college system where state legislatures determine the manner of appointing electors. State legislatures’ power is nearly absolute. They can pick the electors themselves if fhey want. They can have a popular election but decide who will appear on the ballot. They can pick the names individually. They can specify qualifications.
Presidential Electors in Colorado have to sign a pledge to vote in the manner the legislature determined. Nothing prevents a state from adding a new clause to the pledge with additional qualifications iif it wants.
The Colorado legislature has authority to provide that people who violate Section 3 – as Colorado defines it, not as US courts necessarily would – can’t be on the Colorsdo ballot for President.
Sure, but it hasn't exercised that authority. There's no Colorado law that disqualifies insurrectionists. The reasoning of CSC is that Colorado law prevents people who are federally disqualified from being listed on the Colorado ballot. Whether Trump is federally disqualified is ultimately a federal question.
The Supreme Court held, quite recently, in Moore v. Harper, that state election law is as state courts interpret it. The Colorado Supreme Court did exactly that, interpreting state election law to incorporate the insurrection disqualification.
Yes. But, if SCOTUS says Trump isn't disqualified by 14.3 (for any number of reasons), doesn't than mean Colorado state law, as interpreted by this decision, says Trump is on the ballot?
I don't think so. As I mentioned I think the Colorado SC decision is poor, in that it concluded that it would be a "wrongful act" for the Election Clerk to include Trump on the ballot. While that might fly for a candidate who was 14 years old - ie obviously unqualified to the merest glance, it's pretty lame for the insurrectionist disqualification. The Election Clerk cannot be expected to conduct a 200 plus page legal analysis of whether he or she agrees with the candidate's self certification of qualification, so that if the Election Clerk accepts the self certification at face value it's silly to say that that's a "wrongful act."
But that's not the point I wish to argue with you about. Suppose Colorado law said something that would allow the Colorado SC to reach their conclusion of "wrongful act" on a sounder footing. Suppose it said that the Election Clerk must exclude any candidate from the ballot unless he/she is fully satisfied of their qualified status. In that case, Colorado law would require the Election Clerk to have achieved, by diligent effort, a high level of satisfaction with the candidate's qualification, with unclear cases being destined for the wood chipper.
Now, having failed to conduct a rigorous enquiry and having failed to get $250,000 of legal advice of what an insurrection is, and what an Officer of the United States might be, the Election Clerk seems poised just to rubber stamp The Donald. If now a concerned citizen puts his complaint into court, the Colorado SC would have a good case for saying that the Election Clerk had failed properly to satisfy him/herself of The Donald's qualification, and so was on the cusp of a "wrongful act" and so could be ordered to keep Trump off the ballot.
Then it goes up to SCOTUS and they say, for example, the President isn't an Officer of the United States, remand back to the Colorado SC for a decision consistent with that ruling.
So back to Colorado and they rule - OK SCOTUS, we've got you. You tell us now that Trump is qualified. But that doesn't change the fact that the Election Clerk had failed to satisfy him/herself of Trump's qualification prior to putting him on the ballot. That was a wrongful act under Colorado law, quite unaffected by your SCOTUSnesses learned conclusion. So under Colorado law, our original decision stands, Trump is off the ballot, and the SCOTUS conslusion on what an Officer of the United States is, is simply irrelevant to the wrongfulness of the Election Clerk's decision under Colorado law.
The Colorado Secretary of State has taken no action to disqualify Donald Trump from appearing on the presidential primary ballot. Her position is that she will follow direction by the judicial system regarding Trump's eligibility vel non to serve as President and will put him on the ballot or not as the courts direct.
Missing the point with consummate ease.
You said, "Suppose it [the statute] said the Election Clerk must exclude any candidate from the ballot unless he/she is fully satisfied of their qualified status." (*) not guilty merely noted that the Election Clerk (the Secretary of State) is on record as saying if the courts hold that Trump is not disqualified under 14.3, then that's good enough to fully satisfy her. What point did not guilty and I miss?
(*) Let's assume you are correct for the sake of argument, but I doubt it.
The state cannot disqualify someone from being a candidate if they have not been disqualified by the Constitution and meet all Constitutional requirements.
State's cannot add additional requirements to be a candidate. They cannot require tax returns for example.
They can deny a felon the right to vote, but they cannot deny a felon from being a candidate because the Constitution does not place such a bar on candidates.
State law cannot override the explicit requirements for Presidential candidates.
14A S5 says that Congress shall have the power to enforce the 14A. It does not give States such power.
You're right when it comes to Senators. But presidential elections are different. The state selects electors they vote. Sure, the electors can vote for any qualified candidate. But that doesn't mean the state has to include all those candidates in a popular vote. They don't have to have a popular vote at all. The state can select the electors however it wants (subject to other Constitutional constraints like equal protection).
Josh is right. CSC did not "incorporate an insurrection disqualification" into state law. They decided two things:
1. State law requires disqualified candidates not to be listed on the ballot, and
2. Federal law (the US Constitution) disqualifies Trump.
You're right that #1, the state law analysis, isn't reviewable by SCOTUS. But #2 sure as shit is.
You are completely wrong about that.
Remember the term limits case that struck down term limits, the court said that the legislature could not impose additional qualifications for office. That applies to the Presidency too.
And while the legislature does have plenary power to decide how to select electors, they cannot override the vote of the people if that's the process they choose.
By your absurd reading, the Colorado Legislature could disqualify any candidate over 80. They probably should if they could, but they can't.
Uh, SCOTUS recognized in U. S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779, 787-88 n.2 (1995), that in addition to the constitutional qualifications of Art. I, § 2, cl. 2, and Art. I, § 3, cl. 3 that were at issue in that case, § 3 of the 14th Amendment disqualifies any person "who, having previously taken an oath . . . to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." Just as it previously had so recognized in Powell v. McCormack, 395 U.S. 486, 520, n.41 (1969).
It helps to actually read a judicial decision before referring to it.
The Supreme Court could definitely decide this as a matter of federal law. I’m not saying my theory is the only possible theory. I’m just offering a theory under which the Supreme Court could say it’s an unreviewable matter of state law if it wants to, under a theory that Colorado can interpret Section 3 more strictly for purposes of managing its Presidential elections if it wants to, because the Constitution gives the states and state law special powers in presidential elections that they don’t have in other kinds of federal elections.
Does your theory allow states to interpret "natural-born citizen" to bar candidates born in the USA of non-citizen parents or candidates conceived by IVF?
It absolutely doesn’t apply to the presidency. The difference is that the actual election is done by the electoral college, and appointing the state’s presidential electors is up to state legislatures. Unlike in congressional elections, state legislatures can pick the electors themselves if they want. There’s no need to have a popular election at all. They can have a purely advisory popular vote as long as they set up the procedure in advance. They can let voters vote but pick who will be on the ballot. They can have a Soviet-style election with a single candidate of their choosing on the ballot. They can let judges or an advisory committee pick.
The Equal Protection Clause applies because once they hold a popular election, they can’t distort it - grants of power to cotizens have to be granted in an enven-handed matter. But as long as the same grant is given to all citizens. the legislature can leave the citizenry with very little actual power of choice if it wants.
For example, in some states only party candidates can effectively be elected, because you need a slate of electors behind you for voters’ votes for you in the popular election to translate into votes for you in the electoral college. So if you’re an individual write-in candidate with no slate of electors behind you, votes for you are effectively discarded. That in itself is a qualification that’s beyond what the constitution says.
So a state legislature can decide who the candidates are? Just remember, the first person to stop applauding Comrade Stalin will end up going to the GULAG.
Absolutely. The state legislature can skip having an election entirely and just pick the candidates itself.
We don’t have any elections to an entire branch of government, the Judiciary. The constitution made one of go government, Congress; elected by the people; it made another branch, the Judiciary, completely unelected. And for the head of the third branch, the Executive, Congress decided to set up an Electoral College system to do the actual voting and let state legislatures decide how to pick their delegates to it.
It was a compromise. But it’s the way they decided things. Doesn’t make us communists or anything like that.
It’s been a custom for a long time to have popular election of pre-pledged slates be the means of appointing each state’s electors. But state legislatures can change it if they want. They could do it themselves. They could let judges or a commission do it. They could have a popular election, but select who will appear on the ballot themselves. Any number of ways to do it.
Clearly the wrong decision. A self-executing provision that involves stripping an otherwise qualified citizen from running for office based on a criminal conviction (insurrection) not resulting from due process, but rather from executive fiat, is a violation of the 5th amendment and/or section 1 of the 14th. It has all the immoral earmarks of a bill of attainder.
I too loathe Trump, and do not want him to run ever again. But if the only way to prevent him is to offer a legal theory worth of John Eastman, and in the process dismantles the protections of our Constitution, I'm willing to live with Trump. Your theory, in the long run, makes the danger of Trump seem like a walk in the park.
Why can't a Marine private just overthrow Brandon from office (as I read on another comment on another post) if it was self-executing?
For the same reason a Marine private can't rob Fort Knox in order to compensate Kelo.
What a (re)tard.
If a provision is self-executing, then anyone can enforce it. FJB's disqualification would be automatic, and a Marine would have to choose enforcing Section 3 of the 14th Amendment instead of obeying laws against mutiny. After all, Marines took an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, both foreign and domestic.
Section 5 entrusts the enforcement mechanism to Congress. Congress enacted laws against mutiny, and made no exception for Marines who feel that their commander-in-chief is constitutionally disqualified.
No. If a provision is self-executing, it can be enforced by anyone granted the power of enforcement by law. In the question of who gets to appear on the ballot, state laws grant various offices and boards the power to decide. Not anybody.
Section 5 grants to Congress the power to pass legislation enforcing the amendment. It doesn't state that ONLY Congress has that power.
So the USMC also has this power?
The USMC has the power granted to it by law.
The Takings Clause is self-executing. Otherwise Congress could just decide not to execute it and do all the takings it wanted.
You think anyone can enforce the Takings Clause?
No. They cannot. It's why we have courts, dumdum.
It was not by executive fiat, but after a five day trial with plenty of evidence. And reviewed by the Colorado Supreme Court.
Wow, five whole days of trial to determine if you can ever hold elected office again, following a whopping 8-week pretrial period, with no discovery, no jury, and few other procedural safeguards afforded both civil and criminal defendants facing far more minimal impacts to their lives? The three separate dissents (yes, Virginia, they disqualified him on a 4-3 vote) spanning about 80 pages said more than a few words about this.
The case is simply about whether he can be on the Colorado ballot for President. He isn’t contesting other federal offices, and neither he nor Colorsdo have any standing to address the issue. And yes, qualifications for the presidential ballot are determined by summary procedures all the time. You’re not entitled to a jury trial if someone claims you’re under 35 or not a citizen.
I think a 5-day trial with appellate review is enough process to satisfy Due Process requirements.
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Step back and try to objectively read what you just wrote: doesn't that just scream out the incoherence of this whole mess? Whether a given individual is or is not disqualified from office under the Constitution cannot be a subjective judgment. So either Colorado has the authority to make that call for the country (and we've just witnessed the inversion/implosion of the Supremacy Clause) or they don't have the authority to make that call at all.
Trump isn't due any process whatsoever. Being eligible for president is neither life, liberty, nor property.
Donald Trump does have a liberty interest in running for President, but one not rising to the magnitude of a fundamental constitutional right. Lindsay v. Bowen, 750 F.3d 1061, 1063-64 (9th Cir. 2014); Plante v. Gonzalez, 575 F.2d 1119, 1126 (5th Cir. 1978) (no "fundamental" right to run for office).
That having been said, the fundamental requirement of due process is the opportunity to be heard "at a meaningful time and in a meaningful manner." Mathews v. Eldridge, 424 U.S. 319 (1976), quoting Armstrong v. Manzo, 380 U.S. 545, 552 (1965). Donald Trump has had a five-day bench trial and comprehensive review by Colorado's court of last resort. with the possibility of discretionary review by SCOTUS. That is all the process he is due.
Ah, got it. So PDP just requires you to be heard "some," and Trump was heard "some," so all good! That's basically the same brushoff approach the majority took.
On the other hand, Chief Justice Boatwright and Justice Samour collectively penned dozens of pages on the inherent due process failings of this proceeding. You should try reading them.
Life of Brian, I have read all the opinions, thank you very much. Have you?
Let's see now. Donald Trump had notice of the charges against him, the relief sought by the petitioners, and detailed specification of the underlying factual and legal basis for the petition. His lawyers litigated multiple pretrial motions in the trial court and in the Supreme Court of Colorado. AFAIK, Trump did not seek to conduct any pretrial discovery, and he made no offer of proof to the trial court as to how discovery would have assisted his defense on the merits. (The petitioners sought to take a pretrial evidentiary deposition of Trump, but the trial court denied their application to do so.) The trial court scheduled five full days for taking proof, with the time for presentation equally divided between the petitioners and the respondent/intervenors (and Trump did not take all of the time he was allotted). The Rules of Civil Procedure applied at trial. Trump had the subpoena power of the trial court to compel the attendance of witnesses on his behalf. Trump's lawyers cross-examined witnesses called on behalf of the petitioners. Trump had the opportunity to testify at trial; he elected not to do so. While the applicable statutes specified that the petitioners had the burden of proof by a preponderance of evidence, the trial court determined that the proof met the higher standard of clear and convincing evidence, had that standard been applicable. All parties had the opportunity to submit proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law. The trial court issued a comprehensive and detailed final order.
The Supreme Court of Colorado exercised discretionary review. The parties submitted comprehensive briefing. The per curiam opinion of the Supreme Court is comprehensive and is tied closely to the evidentiary record developed before the trial court. Trump has the opportunity under 28 U.S.C. § 1257 to petition the United States Supreme Court for review by certiorari.
What additional process due you claim was due Donald Trump? Please be specific.
Colorado isn’t making the call for the country. It is making the call for the state of Colorado, and its Presidential ballot. As the decision noted, other state laws may lead to different outcomes because other states’ election laws are different. For example, footnote 10 explains why Colorado law is different from Michigan law on the issue, and hence why Colorado’s decision needed to be different from the Michigan courts’ decision which had kept Trump on the Michigan ballot.
See my last post. At bottom, Colorado is purporting to interpret the United States Constitution. Either they were wrong in doing that, or the other 49 states can likewise just interpret it as they please and we're headed for some serious trouble.
Or, this situation works the same as every other situation: the state courts take a crack at interpreting federal law, and then SCOTUS has the opportunity to make corrections.
"Whether a given individual is or is not disqualified from office under the Constitution cannot be a subjective judgment. So either Colorado has the authority to make that call for the country (and we’ve just witnessed the inversion/implosion of the Supremacy Clause) or they don’t have the authority to make that call at all."
Uh, no. The ruling of the Supreme Court of Colorado deals only with Donald Trump's eligibility to appear on the ballot in Colorado, and not in any other state. If and when the ruling becomes final, and if Trump is sued elsewhere, whatever effect the Colorado decision may have regarding nonmutual offensive collatral estoppel remains subject to litigation in the forum state.
So if Texas, Florida, and Ohio rule that Biden is not eligible to run, that will be okay? Good to know. Before you know it, state legislatures and governors will banish opposition party candidates from the ballot.
Yes, this sure is a slippery slope. Unless Trump did something no other President or candidate for same has done...
What are the odds?
"given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof” is also a ground for disqualification.
Iran is an enemy of the US. Biden gave them access to money which they used to kill Americans.
Aid and comfort.
You think that norm breaking precedents can be restrained, that the other side gets no time at bat.
If you're going to open the can of worms of the US supporting people who went on to kill Americans, well, go ahead.
I agree. Please, please do it. Get rid of Biden for us, and open the door for us to bar every Senator and Representative who votes against aid for Ukraine and Israel. That certainly comforted our enemies!
The fact that the Colorado Supreme Court also purported to forbid counting write-im ballots for Trump says it went beyond "eligibility to appear on the ballot in Colorado".
It helps if you address facts rather than only what is convenient for your novel theories.
You might want to look up Colorado state law on write- in ballots, idiot.
Write-in votes do not operate the way you seem to think they do. Boards of elections approve certain candidates to be eligible to receive write-in ballots. Other write-in votes are not counted.
It's more Trump rules where these marxist scum throw a out all rules to get this one guy but pinky swear that they totally aren't and everything is kosher. Except when the exact same thing arises for them then suddenly we need nuance and perspective and the fact that it is perfectly normal and usual comes back to the fore.
You are reduced to the snarling of a not-too-bright animal who only knows the word Marxist.
Just don't go of and shoot anyone and you'll get through this.
So, could the Colorado supreme court declare Trump as "under 35" without evidence? No. A birth certificate would suffice. But what would constitute evidence that one is ineligible for office under sec 3? Since the criteria of ineligibility are crimes, a criminal conviction would suffice. But a criminal conviction requires due process under section 1 of the 14th amendment. A judicial bill of attainder does not suffice.
The criteria of ineligibility under § 3 are acts, not crimes.
Life of Brian, do you have any authority indicating that Donald Trump is or was entitled to a jury determination of whether he qualifies for the Colorado Republican primary ballot? Any constitutional provision(s)? Any statute(s)? Any judicial decision(s)? Any learned treatise(s)? Any law review article(s)?
Anything at all?? (FWIW, Otto Yourazz and ipse dixit are not legal authorities.)
Still waiting, LoB.
Not really. The biggest part of the evidence allowed and considered was from Pelosi’s hand picked J6 committee. The court’s decision argued that there were two Republicans on the committee, but ignored that they were selected by Pelosi, and not the Republican House leadership. Which means that the Republican minority was never given access to cross examine witnesses, call their own, or even see many of the witness transcripts, since the Dems apparently destroyed them before turning over control of the House to the Republicans early this year. So, yes, it was a government proceeding, but it had none of the inherent reliability required to be an exception to hearsay rules.
Republicans really fucked up not putting anyone on that committee, eh?
The court demonstrated that it was not deciding the case in good faith by making that point.
The Republicans didn't bother to appoint anyone without a conflict of interest, sucks to be them.
You already forgot that Pelosi refused to let the chosen (R) members sit on her committee? Oh, wait, silly me - She refused to allow them because the (R)s in question objected to the certification of Biden.
Something (D)s have done every time they lose an election for the last ~30 years - but as always, it is (D)ifferent when they do it.
She didn't let people who were Jan 06 fans on the Jan 06 Committee. The GOP was free to appoint other folks.
In fact they did but they withdrew everyone when Jim Jordan wasn't allowed in when he transparently planned to spray shit everywhere.
Now the GOP just lies about what happened. Which kinda puts the truth to Nige's point.
Pretty much. Why accept obvious spoilers and saboteurs? Why are you mad she wouldn't play their dumb game? I's like not taking their shit like she was supposed to sent you all into shock.
JohnSmith97 is lying, by the way. Pelosi accepted McCarthy's suggestion to appoint Troy Nehls, and he had objected to certification.
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As usual, every bit of this is wrong. Setting aside that Cheney and Kinzinger didn't stop being Republicans, the rest of the Republican minority had every opportunity to do those things. McCarthy thought he was being clever by proposing that two saboteurs be named to the committee and then refusing to let any other Republicans serve, but — as even Donald Trump subsequently recognized — all this did was prevent the GOP from having any input. But it was 100% their choice. One can't say, "We refuse to participate in the process" and then use one's own refusal as the excuse for why the process isn't legitimate.
But also, you're wrong; no transcripts were destroyed. What were not retained were video recordings of witness examinations that weren't used by the committee; they kept all the transcripts of those examinations.
There is no stripping, because there is no right to office in the first place. American constitutionalism refers to, "the gift of office," which is an aspect of the sovereign constitutive power, which the People exercise at pleasure, without constraint from government.
There is no stripping, because there is no right to office in the first place.
He didn't say there was a "right to office", Captain Strawman.
Then what's bring stripped?
People are misunderstanding what self executing means. It means that government officials have to follow that provision without Congress having to spell it out with additional legislation. If state law gives authority to its Secretary of State to determine whether a candidate meets eligibility requirements, then that person has to follow Section 3.just like he would the Equal protection clause or the no religious tests clause, or anything else.
IANAL, but I can’t help but think the controlling legal principle here is that any Republican appointed justice who votes against Trump on the ballot will never be able to go home again.
The Colorado Supreme Cour decision was 4-3. All seven justices were appointed by Democrat governors. Do you think the three that voted for Trump will be able to go home again?
The lawfare in this country has reached Stage 4 cancer levels, and Republicans haven't even started playing the game yet. I think even some Democrats are getting sick of it.
“Do you think the three that voted for Trump will be able to go home again?” I expect they already have or will shortly.
Even my wife, a committed woke progressive, thought the CO Supreme Court decision was BS.
That all sounds completely believable.
I believe it. It's sort of sweet. (note his definition of woke is probably a boring moderate)
But real or no, his wife the offscreen woke progressive has zero authoritative value.
LOL. The odds of the Supreme Court allowing this to stand are about one in one million, so I don't think too many people are concerned. Now, no one is going to ever accuse Somin of being one of the great thinkers of the age, but when it comes to Trump, he's so blinded by hatred, that he becomes Hollywood-level stupid. He is hardly unique in this respect.
But it's good this happened. We all knew some dipshit left-wing activist judges were going to do it eventually, so might as well let the Supreme Court dispose of the issue once and for all. Though, I must confess, part of me does hope Trump is disqualified. Let's end the charade that we live in a democracy and deny roughly half the people in this country their choice of President. Let's see what happens then. The moment Biden's Justice Department raided Trump's home, the United States lost all its moral authority to lecture other countries about persecuting political opponents. Let's see how low this farce can go.
Slight correction: the moment Trump stole documents belonging to the United States, hid them, and lied about them, he lost all moral authority to lecture anyone about ethics, morality, and honesty.
Hmm. No. Trump had documents marked as classified removed from the WH by GSA. Past Presidents had been able to have the national archives take control of their papers as they left office. They were properly secured, until they could be reviewed to determine whether they were Presidential records or personal papers. Somehow, this service was not supplied to Trump. In any case, it’s not up to the national archives, or even the FBI and DOJ making requests through the Archives, to determine what was a personal paper, and what was a Presidential record. It’s up to the outgoing President - or at least that is the precedent, from the infamous Clinton sock drawer case.
But the other thing here is that “stealing” requires scienter (intent). What actually happened is that throughout his Presidency, when Trump would finish a call or meeting, his desk would be cleared into boxes, with everything on it, marked classified or not, filed together. The result was that a document marked as classified very occasionally found its way into the boxes, filed with related documents from a specific call or meeting. There they apparently sat, until Trump left office, in hundreds of sealed boxes. Then GSA moved them to MAL, where they were put under lock and key, and were protected by the Secret Service. I would suggest that doesn’t rise to the level of intent required for “stole”, or even negligence. Maybe not even carelessness.
The other aspect here is that the head prosecutor, Deputy Special Counsel (and DOJ Counterintelligence and Export branch chief) Jay Bratt is using the theft argument to step around the problem that Trump had plenary declassification authority, at the time he ordered GSA to move the boxes to MAL. He could, and has, argued that that order effectively declassified everything removed by GSA. Somehow Bratt is making the argument that even if they have been thus declassified, they still belong to the government (because he says they do, wearing his Counterintelligence and Export branch chief hat).
Luckily for Trump, the judge doesn’t trust Bratt, and is requiring him to provide each and every document that he claims the government still owns to Trump’s attorneys, on a timely basis. Bratt said “Trust me”. The judge, esp seeing his shenanigans prior to this in this case, said “No!” That means that they are very likely to miss their March trial date, and may not actually see trial until after the election.
Note - some of the shenanigans:
- Bratt, through Archives, authorized by the Biden WH, requested all documents marked as classified from Trump.
- Bratt then subpoenas the documents when they aren’t provided quickly enough
- he then refused to give Trump’s attys either an extension of time or allow rolling production.
- when they fail to meet his artificially short deadline, he issues the search warrant for MAL, neglecting to inform the magistrate of a number of critical things.
- instead of coordinating with Trump’s attys, he brings his buddies from the FBI’s Counterintelligence Division (yes, the ones who masterminded Crossfire Hurricane, etc) from DC to conduct the raid. Contrary to standard DOJ policy, Trump’s attys were repeatedly refused permission to oversee the search. The FBI were thus free to do whatever they wanted, without oversight, and at a minimum, were caught fabricating photographs of what they supposed to have found.
- then, the Bratt tried to put a time crunch of Trump, et Al, by slow rolling both the attorneys’ security clearances and production of all the documents.
- Oh, and then, contrary to DOJ policy, Smith and Bratt were running a second grand jury, back in DC, out of District, and out of sight of the Judge. That apparently really pissed her off.
That might be compelling, if Trump had given them back when first asked.
Giving them back? They are just printouts of documents that the government has. The government already has the documents.
Technically, we have no idea what they actually are, as they're, ahem, "secret".
We do know that the feds were desperate enough that nobody review what they were, to demand that the order for a special master to review them be overturned. That really suggests that having anybody who wasn't all in against Trump actually look at them wouldn't have helped their case.
We also know that your legal conclusions are pure bullshit and that you’ve never read a judicial opinion in your life, and that you have no idea why Cannon was bitch-slapped and her “Special Master” ruling was overturned.
The sheer spectacle of Republicans shitting on national security for Trump.
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Actually you're full of shit. Classified documents are by law NOT personal records.
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title44/chapter22&edition=prelim
Actually you're again full of shit. The Secret Service does not protect anything other than their Principle. You also have no idea what Trump commonly did after a phone call or meeting. You are a liar.
They continue to belong to the Government because they were created by the Government, and Trump's magic mind-meld order of fake de-classification does not change them into his personal property. See the hyperlink again, 44 U.S. Code § 2202.
Take off the bozo hat before complaining about the attire of anyone else. You brazenly come here and lie your ass off because you're too stupid to know any better.
In fairness, don't you think that is all stuff Haden actually believes, despite making it up without realizing it? You might even extend the benefit of a reasonable doubt. Perhaps Hayden—who pretty clearly avoids mainstream media—has some kind of computer feed telling him stuff like that in an authoritative-looking format.
Bruce Hayden, lying once again. (Have you figured out yet that the Pfizer vaccine was approved, and not just available via EUA?)
1. Trump stole the documents. The GSA, which reported to him, did not "not supply" any service to him. He didn't make any plans because that would have involved him admitting he had lost the election.
2. This discussion has nothing to do with personal vs. presidential records, though of course Congress, not the president, decided what those categories were.
3. When Trump absconded with them to M-A-L, nothing was "put under lock and key," and the Secret Service was not guarding them. Post presidency, the Secret Service protects the president, not documents in the bathroom.
4. None of this is fucking relevant in the slightest. Trump is not being prosecuted for taking the records, so it doesn't matter how they got to M-A-L. He's being prosecuted for refusing to return them. But not all of them — only NDI.
5. Trump did not have plenary declassification authority, there's no evidence Trump declassified any of the documents, and none of the charges turn on whether he did or did not.
That's because that is in fact the law. Declassification does not convert documents from agency records or presidential records to personal records. Declassification has no bearing whatsoever on who owns them. This was settled 50 years ago; Congress legislated that all such records are the property of the government.
Another lie. They were subpoenaed when they weren't provided at all, after Trump had already been stalling for a year.
Again, a lie. Trump turned over a few documents, and supplied an affidavit saying that this was everything. The search warrant was issued after the government developed information providing p.c. to believe that the affidavit was a lie.
There were no "critical things" that the magistrate wasn't informed about.
All of this is a lie. Including 'and' and 'the,' as the saying goes. There is no such "policy" of allowing a criminal suspect's lawyers to "oversee" a search. You have fabricated this. (But in fact there was oversight, as Trump's lawyers watched it on the security cameras.)
Nobody was "caught" "fabricating photographs." No photographs were fabricated, so nobody could be 'caught' doing that.
Finally, Bratt had nothing whatsoever to do with security clearances, and once the lawyers actually bothered to fill out the paperwork, they got those clearances.
Once again, you have fabricated these claims about DOJ policy. They were running a second grand jury because Trump and his cronies are being prosecuted in multiple places for multiple things. There was nothing at all wrong with this.
How does Somin retain his seat at GWU law?
Because Internet randos being mad at his blog posts has nothing to do with his job as a law professor.
Sometimes people you really disagree with exist and have jobs. Deal with it.
Just seconds after posting my comment, I regretted it and tried to edit some sense into it. The edit function wasn't --- and apparently still isn't --- working.
The Internet does this to all of us at one time or another.
Good on you to write back and not just slink away.
Because it's GWU, #35 on the USN&WR listing. It's a school for political hacks and swamp creatures. People driving around GWU don't even pull over when ambulances are on emergency runs.
GWU?
Iceberg, Goldberg. What's the difference?
I found myself wondering same thing about Bernstein when he threatened to call my boss
By cleverly making the GWU administration think he worked at an entirely different school, so that they wouldn't try to fire him.
The Supreme Court of Colorado has given the nation a wonderful Christmas present. https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Opinions/2023/23SA300.pdf
I'll have more to say once I have read the dissenting opinions, but I am very much enjoying my eggnog this evening.
This is another way the Dems can get rid of Brandon!
How so? Please show your work.
You're enjoying people being prevented from voting for their desired candidate? I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Since only two candidates can run, thousands and thousands of people presumably don't get to vote for someone they'd prefer.
Only 2 candidates can run in the primary? CO must have a totally different system then the other states.
Are you saying all thoe who run in the primary are disqualified from running in the general somehow?
Probably the same way he'd enjoy people being prevented from voting for Arnold: the Constitution forbids it.
The rule of law trumps Trump.
Do you make your own, not guilty? = egg nog
No, I buy eggnog at the grocery. I drink it with three parts eggnog to one part bourbon, with a sprinkle of nutmeg.
not guilty, may I recommend this 🙂
“One quart cream, one quart milk, one dozen eggs, one dozen tablespoons sugar, one pint brandy, pint rye whiskey, pint Jamaica rum, pint sherry
"Mix liquor first, then separate yolks and whites of 12 eggs, add sugar to beaten yolks, mix well. Add milk and cream, slowly beating. Beat whites of eggs until stiff and fold slowly into mixture. Let set in cool place for several days. Taste frequently.”
You...will not be disappointed. Needs 3 days minimum to 'develop'; 7 days ideal.
That sounds yummy.
The opinion is **grossly** underreasoned with respect to key issue: did Trump's conduct count as engaging in insurrection.
They basically adopt, with minimal analysis, the standard that "an insurrection as used in Section Three is (1) a public use of force or threat of force (2) by a group of people (3) to hinder or prevent execution of the Constitution of the United States”
But that's a pretty absurd rule. On its face (including the restatement where they say it's enough that it be intented to block the peaceful transfer of power) that includes Trump asking the police or secret service to **legally** use force to protect him from protestors blocking his path to the capital where he intends to ask Pence to refuse to count the votes.
More broadly, nothing in their standard requires any nexus between the force and unconstitutional action. If you believe (as many scholars do) that the war powers act is unconstitutional (and thus ordering us troops into battle is illegal) then does trying to increase your popularity by engaging in military activity like many past presidents count as an insurection if it's part of a scheme to avoid a peaceful transfer of power?
Even if we insist that this needs to be the motive of those engaging in the violence it's still not reasonable. Suppose Trump asked his mob to mug people and give him the money so he could bribe Pence. That's an insurrection??
The authors of the 14th amendment could have written it to disqualify anyone who attempts to subvert the us constitution via violence. They didn't. Insurrection implies something about the connection between the violence and the means of subverting the constitution that goes beyond merely being an element of a conspiracy and I'm deeply disappointed the court didn't give a more convincing analysis.
The OP highlights a different rule:
"[F]or purposes of deciding this case, we need not adopt a single, all-encompassing definition of the word "insurrection." Rather, it suffices for us to conclude that any definition of "insurrection" for purposes of Section Three would encompass a concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power in this country."
Also your definition of legally includes unconstitutional acts. That seems wrong.
Hinder or prevent are more direct than 'do a war to be popular.'
That's really kind of irrelevant, in as much as Trump didn't engage in force or threat of force, nor was he a member of a group that did.
He participated, as well explicated on the OP.
There is no personal force requirement, as you know.
You seem to be confusing 'explicated' and 'asserted'.
You seem to be confusing your take on the Constitution with something that anyone else is bound to follow.
It also looks a lot like you didn't read the OP. But still had an opinion about it.
Which should tell you something about how serious you are right now (not very).
Any Ilya Somin piece is going to be (a) tl;dr and (b) full of poorly reasoned, overly verbose motivated reasoning. This one is no exception.
Ad hominem so you don't have to think.
Seems about your speed.
What happened to your support for credibility determinations, chief?
Neither of your criticism of Prof. Somin are about putting forth false factual reporting, so credibility is not the issue.
I have explained the distinction between argumentation and factual assertion to you like four times now and you can't seem to get it.
I'm beginning to think you're kinda thick.
No, you're just arbitrary and incoherent. Kind of like up-thread on textual basis/analysis. Somin's entire post here is full of conclusory assertions without argument, which puts the lie to your claims of that distinction being relevant.
So what a normal person would do might be to write down those unsupported postulates, and say they are unsupported.
You didn't bother with that, skipping right to ad hominem.
Yeah, I don't think I'm buying your retcon of your argument at all, actually.
You're angry and lazy and not too smart and this is what happens.
This is why the Colorado Supreme Court will be overturned:
"and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President."
So a state court cannot disqualify a national candidate ... because if he gets enough votes, with a Republican House, then the House would be not be bound by the decision of the Colorado Supreme Court.
How a tie in the electoral college gets handled really has nothing to do with this case. This case is about how Colorado appoints its delegates to the Electoral College. Any tie would only occur after they’ve been appointed and voted.
That's actually the best argument going the other way. The original understanding isn't one of popular sovereignty so even if CO is totally wrong on the law it's not violating the US constitution, merely making a determination about how it casts its own electoral ballots which the us constitution leaves it free to do as it wishes.
SCOTUS could correct them on the 14th bc it's the national constitution but it could also just say it's a political question and leave it to each state.
This is exactly how Chavez became President for life in Venezuela. He had the courts disqualify his opponents. Socialists gotta Socialist. One person, one vote, one time. Professor Somin brings his Russian legal vision to America. Traitor.
BTW, does supporting this decision mean the Professor has engaged in an insurrection?
You're a lawyer, or so you say.
Be a better one - don't attack the poster, attack the legal argument.
This is just lazy bile with some racism for spice.
If it's so obvious then why hasn't Biden's DOJ charge Trump with insurrection? (18 U.S. Code § 2383). In fact, NO ONE involved in the Jan 6 was charged with insurrection. Even if you believe the Colorado law doesn't depend on the federal definition, it's still hard to believe that there would be such a wild discrepancy over an issue that was so "obvious".
On top of that the house impeached Trump over "incitement to insurrection" - and the Senate acquitted him. If Trump should be kept off the ballot, that was the mechanism to do it.
1. The meaning of "insurrection" in Section 3, as it was enacted after the Civil War, is not necessarily equivalent to the meaning of "insurrection" as that term is used in 18 U.S. Code § 2383, which was first enacted in 1948.
2. It is entirely plausible that the events of January 6 qualify as an "insurrection" as that term was understood at the time of the Fourteenth Amendment's passage. Take, for example, an early definition of "insurrection" from Georgia's state code: "combined resistance to the lawful authority of the State, with intent to the denial thereof, when the same is manifested or intended to be manifested by acts of violence." As to January 6, the insurrectionists/protesters were resisting the lawful authority of the federal government to certify the election, with intent to deny the federal government of that authority, and the same was manifested by acts of violence. Even if you don't necessarily agree, it is certainly a plausible interpretation and application of that definition.
3. I suggest you read the majority opinion's argument dealing with self-execution and why Congress need not act for Trump to be disqualified. It is very persuasive in terms of both the relevant history and how Section 3 works in conjunction with the remainder of the Fourteenth Amendment and the other Reconstruction Amendments.
It's quite possible that at least some of the people who attacked the Capitol are guilty of insurrection. The problem is, Trump didn't attack the Capitol, so what does that have to do with him?
Read the OP.
Tell me about the definition of the word "income" in the Internal Revenue Code, Title 26 US Code. It has different meanings depending on which part of the Code you are in. Words in statutes often times don't have their usual, conversational or dictionary definitions.
I understand your point, but I think it is irrelevant unless you can direct me to evidence that Section 3 adopted some technical definition of "insurrection" in existence at that time. I'm not aware of such evidence, so I assume that the original public meaning controls.
"combined resistance to the lawful authority of the State"
By that extremely loose definition, then supporting ANY protest would count as inciting an "insurrection". You really want to open that can of worms? I can think of a lot of Democrats, including Kamala Harris, who openly encouraged social justice movements who rioted all through 2020.
You took his quote out of context, and then used a strained definition of resistance.
Pathetic.
I didn't take the quote out of context, I shortened it for brevity. But since that upset you so much, here is the full quote:
“combined resistance to the lawful authority of the State, with intent to the denial thereof, when the same is manifested or intended to be manifested by acts of violence.”
How does that change anything? Same question stands. By that extremely loose definition, then supporting ANY protest would count as inciting an “insurrection”. You really want to open that can of worms? I can think of a lot of Democrats, including Kamala Harris, who openly encouraged social justice movements who rioted all through 2020.
As far as "resistance" goes, I submit that continuously attacking a federal courthouse for months, burning down and completely destroying a police station, attacking the WH fence so that the President has to retreat to a bunker, and setting up several armed autonomous zones all qualify, but that's just my crazy opinion.
"supporting ANY protest would count as inciting an “insurrection" requires that you ignore the acts of violence part you cut off.
You don't seem to have done it intentionally, but you're absolutely arguing against a strawman you have made.
Then you shift to 'encouraging social justice movements who rioted' which is ignoring the OP's discussion of participation entirely.
Your reasoning is poor, and your response to pushback is to tu quoque about irrelevancies.
Read the OP.
What do you think "intent to the denial thereof" means?
Very few protests intend to deny the government its authority. They're almost always about convincing the government to exercise its authority.
When they are attempts to deny its authority, it's almost always some local authority like police, rarely a whole state, and practically never the entire US.
So yeah, I feel like violent protests that intend to deny the US government its authority to govern is just about right.
I would definitely agree with your "denial" point.
I'll also note that regardless of how you feel about the BLM protests, they weren't insurrection against "the Constitution of the United States," even if they could be considered insurrection more generally. So Section 3 wouldn't have any applicability to such protests.
In contrast, January 6 was directed at preventing Congress from exercising its constitutionally allocated authority and preventing the transfer of power in the Executive Branch. It is much easier to characterize those events as an insurrection against "the Constitution of the United States," thereby bringing January 6 within the ambit of Section 3.
Yeah.. all the arson, murders, attacking gov't buildings, declaring autonomous zones... It was really showing support _for_ the gov't.
And high profile (D)s cheered it on..
What "high profile (D)" "cheered on" "arson, murders, attacking gov't buildings, or declaring autonomous zones"?
What high profile (R) cheered on Jan 6?
Your continued refusal to understand the distinction between demanding a change in policy vs attempting to overthrow the government makes it seem like maybe you can't understand, which makes you look like a loon.
Why do you think Section 2383 was first enacted in 1948? It goes back to 1863, which tells us a lot about how it aligns with the (later) Fourteenth Amendment's meaning.
I'll admit to my mistake, but I think you are also wrong. Section 2383 was enacted in its standalone form for the first time in 1948. But it was adopted from an earlier statute that also referenced federal crimes apart from insurrection, and that earlier statute was enacted in 1909.
Entirely possible I'm missing something, but I don't see any information linking the current Section 2383 to a law enacted in 1863.
Either way, however, I think that the meaning of the word "insurrection" at the relevant period, either under Section 3 or some earlier version of Section 2383 that I am unaware of, is broad enough to cover January 6. At the very least, I think that there is a good faith basis for believing as much.
On top of that the house impeached Trump over “incitement to insurrection” – and the Senate acquitted him. If Trump should be kept off the ballot, that was the mechanism to do it.
The reasoning of the Senate was that the impeachment was moot because Trump wasn't president anymore. So no, that wasn't the way.
Really the way is not to vote for him. But I think a lot of people are worried that he's going to create problems if he runs, even if he loses again. Not entirely unfounded fears, I'd say.
Not every Senator who voted to acquit did so for that reason. In any case, it doesn't matter what their reasons were. If Trump should be off the ballot, impeachment is the tool that the government has to do this, not 4 unelected judges in Colorado.
Unelected?
Are you sure?
It's arguably the Constitution doing this...
If, 10 years ago, the events of Jan. 6 were presented as a hypothetical, every legal scholar, and everyone commenting on this blog, would have said "yes" as to insurrection and "yes" as to disqualification under the 14A. But the fact that it turned out to be Trump and his bootlicking Republican Party has . . . nudged some minds.
Brandon's disqualified for aiding and abetting the Taliban!
This is not an idea that's going to get any traction.
Smart Republicans are even starting to back away from the laptop garbage. I think they know that trying to impeach Biden for shady international business practices from before he was even President would really open a big vulnerability for the next Republican president (not to mention Thomas and other naughty Republicans).
This is why we heard so much discussion about the Wisconsin Insurrection of 2011.
Counterfactual hypotheticals are the best hypotheticals.
No. Lots of legal scholars wrote about the 14A, and none ever took such a broad view of insurrections.
Because such an obvious attempt at taking over the federal government had never been imagined.
Because such an obvious attempt at taking over the federal government had never been imagined.
Such an attempt is entirely imaginary still.
The Confederacy never broke into the actual Capitol and threatened the lives of members of Congress. By your lights the Confederacy wasn't an insurrection either.
Luckily for Trump, neither did he. And so, this "insurrection" will remain an insurrection to blowhard partisans only. And- even to them- only an insurrection until such nonsense blows up in their face and they are forced to completely abandon their previous claims.
I set the over/under on the latter at 18 months- and bet the under. Any takers?
Read the OP. FFS.
"As our detailed recitation of the evidence shows, President Trump did not merely incite the insurrection. Even when the siege on the Capitol was fully under way, he continued to support it by repeatedly demanding that Vice President Pence refuse to perform his constitutional duty and by calling Senators to persuade them to stop the counting of electoral votes. These actions constituted overt, voluntary, and direct participation in the insurrection."
If you were any more full of crap you'd have to be designated as a HazMat disposal facility.
Who would have guessed pornography and insurrection have the exact same definition.
If you can read that "definition" of insurrection- that unfortunately isn't really a definition of insurrection- without giggling... you are missing all the best parts of life.
An inability to enjoy people making fools of themselves is a terrible thing.
Yes, Justice Potter Stewart's infamous test: I know it when I see it.
Um... it seems like your side is the one promoting the IKIWISI test for insurrections. You haven't engaged with the actual definition at all. Everyone who compares Jan 6 to the definition ends up acknowledging that Jan 6 was an insurrection.
Everyone other than the people denying it was even violent, that is. But they're just making the even stupider case for DBYLE.
Are you illiterate? The Supreme of Colorado did not offer a definition. They merely said we will take what Trump did and insist it fits under the definition... which we won't provide.
This is a serious case for anyone who is willing to abandon reason to get Trump, or was conceived up against a dumpster in an alley behind a Waffle House. Neither problem should be addressed through the judicial process.
JonBlack, have you read the per curiam opinion? Particularly ¶184, wherein the Court stated:
At ¶182, the Supreme Court approvingly quoted the district court's conclusion that “an insurrection as used in Section Three is (1) a public use of force or threat of force (2) by a group of people (3) to hinder or prevent execution of the Constitution of the United States.”
Brandon aided and abetted the Taliban.
Section 3 of the 14th amendment says that those who aid and abet enemies are disqualified.
Therefore, Brandon’s disqualified.
Is that too hard to understand?
George Washington aided and abetted the enemy of the United States, Great Britain, by making a peace treaty with it. Does that make George Washington a traitor?
If every peace agreement “aids and abets” the enemy and represents treason against the United States, why did the constitution provide for an explicit federal power to make peace?
After all, it’s hardly the first time the US has gotten out of a war in a way that didn’t work out as well as hoped. The peace after WWI became a set-up for WWII. The withdrawal from Vietnam led directly to the collapse of South Vietnam.
George Washington aided and abetted the enemy of the United States, Great Britain, by making a peace treaty with it. Does that make George Washington a traitor?
Only for the most childishly simplistic and pedantic interpretations of "aiding and abetting". How exactly was that "aiding and abetting" GB? Their goal was to crush the revolution and have the colonies remain....colonies. The aforementioned treaty did not aid them in that goal, nor did it harm the U.S.
"George Washington aided and abetted the enemy of the United States, Great Britain, by making a peace treaty with it. "
Um, no he didn't. The peace treaty was under the Articles of Confederation congress.
Wasn't it Trump that arranged the withdrawal? Badly?
The art of the deal--that was Trump's.
Biden could have reneged--and should have done a better job of withdrawing--but he declined, and stuck with Trump's deal. So a lot of it's on Biden.
Trump will never take responsibility for anything that goes wrong anyway, so there's hardly any point in discussing his role in it.
Is it really? Hadn't crucial aspects already been established? Making reversal implausible?
In October, the Venezuelan Supreme Court disqualified the winner of the opposition's presidential primary. The United States has threatened to impose sanctions if that decision is not reversed. This Colorado Supreme Court decision should really bolster the US negotiating position.
Ignoring the Constitution because it could affect a minor foreign policy objective--I think you've found a winning argument!
The Colorado Supreme Court stayed its own order until January 4, 2024, with the caveat that "If review is sought in the Supreme Court before the stay expires, it shall remain in place, and the Secretary will continue to be required to include President Trump’s name on the 2024 presidential primary ballot until the receipt of any order or mandate from the Supreme Court." The date of the Republican presidential primary in Colorado is March 5, 2024.
My prediction: Team Trump will file a petition for certiorari with SCOTUS on January 3, 2024. The content of the petition will be a political screed, long on butthurt and short on legal analysis. Trump's sycophants on the Court will see that the petition is relisted at conference for as long as necessary. In late February, SCOTUS will issue a per curiam order granting cert, vacating the Colorado Supreme Court decision and remanding for further proceedings pursuant to Purcell v. Gonzalez, 549 U.S. 1 (2006). The per curiam order will assiduously avoid the merits, but Justices Clarence Toady and Sham Elite Oh! will write separately that mustering the insurrectionists and giving them their marching orders is insufficient to constitute engaging in insurrection.
He did neither, but credibility does not seem to be a concern for you.
Again, you will not like these rules are creating.
The main argument against this is “In a democracy we let the voters decide.” However this argument falls apart when the candidate in question has already been show to disregard the results of an election.
A core part of freedom is the ability to chose your own political leaders, otherwise one would live under a dictatorship. Had Trump succeeded in doing what he tried to do and stayed in power after Jan 20, he would have literally ended the US as a free country.
He absolutely is disqualified under 14A.
Ouch, irony:
No doubt you'll then join me in mourning Colorado voters' (hopefully temporary) loss of a core part of freedom.
If Barack Obama were to offer himself as a candidate for another term as President despite the 22nd Amendment, a significant number of voters would no doubt support his candidacy.
Would it impinge upon those voters' freedom if their favored candidate were disqualified?
You, egged on by Trump, wanted to deny millions of American voters their chosen candidate, and don't mind if laws were broken in the process.
For some reason, Trump breaks people's minds. I truly do not understand it.
Trump is an ex-real estate wheeler-dealer from Queens. He's an ex-reality show host. He's clearly not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, he huffs and puffs, pounds his fists, and worms his way in and around opposition without principle.
That doesn't make him a demon. He's not the end of civilization as we know it. He's not able to change how votes are counted, anywhere. He's not able to change which laws get passed, not even those of a local dog catcher.
If you are genuinely worried about Trump, that says more about your lack of faith in democracy and our institutions than it does about him.
They do lack faith in democracy: The faith that, if permitted, they'll always win...
Telepathy. And ignoring the text of the Constitution.
Also why are you so scared? O faith in SCOTUS?
Did you suffer a recent head injury. You have become as incoherent as Joe Biden.
...and edit is STILL NOT WORKING.
From a TRUMP supporter, this?
That doesn’t make him a demon. He’s not the end of civilization as we know it.
What makes him a demon is the words coming out of his mouth, and his announced intentions.
What makes him a demon is the words coming out of his mouth, and his announced intentions.
Do you plan on growing the hell up any time this decade?
You mean talking about doing less than Biden and his vile cabal are actually doing today? If you cannot see how far you've gone please just sink.
***************Demons of the Vile Cabal****************
'that says more about your lack of faith in democracy and our institutions than it does about him.'
Who's dumb enough to think those institutions are somehow indstructible and need no defence? They're not natural processes.
I look forward to reading the decision. My own view is that the President is an Officer of the United States and can be disqualified under section 3. I am skeptical that his actions before January 6 actually qualify as insurrection. Putting pressure on Pence to do something that Trump thought he had the legal power to do based on the legal theories of counsel (and of course, Trump got conflicting legal advice… but deciding between conflicting legal advice is something Presidents have to do… consider George Washington’s rejected attempt to get an advisory opinion from the Supreme Court, for example) does not constitute insurrection just because Trump is legally wrong.
I don’t think it is insurrection if Trump told the protesters to head to the Capitol to protest. But if Trump told them, go bream into the Capitol building and physically force Mike Pence to do X, that would be insurrection. I don’t know that he did that though.
Anyway, I don’t know all the relevant facts though. I look forward to reading the Colorado Supreme Court decision to educate myself on some of the facts I do not know. I am open-minded to the claim that Trump committed insurrection, but that is entirely based on the facts. Based on what I do know now, I do not think Trump committed insurrection.
One thing is for certain. I think the Supreme Court should take this case and resolve it very quickly. Ideally, before voting in Iowa and New Hampshire.
I don’t think it is insurrection if Trump told the protesters to head to the Capitol to protest. But if Trump told them, go bream into the Capitol building and physically force Mike Pence to do X, that would be insurrection.
The findings lie somewhere in between. Trump told the protesters to go to the Capitol and protest, and then while it was happening, he used the ongoing violence as a pressure point against Pence to get him to do what he wanted.
It is pretty compelling. I'm confident SCOTUS will overturn it anyway, and that's probably for the best.
Well, except that a lot of those suppositions come from the report from Pelosi’s hand picked J6 committee, that had no Republicans appointed by their party leadership - which was completely unprecedented. In any case, it prevented the Republicans from cross examining Dem witnesses, or calling their own. And Pelosi and the Dems helpfully shredded all of the witness transcripts before turning over power to the Republicans in January. Hardly the sort of reliability that you would expect for an exception to the hearsay rule.
Judges often admit hearsay in civil bench trials, where the judge is in a good position to determine the probative value of the evidence without risk of it tainting jurors.
'that had no Republicans appointed by their party leadership'
What an amazing unforced error that turned out to be, apparently.
Just like the Jan 6 committee did, you are dishonestly omitting the part where Trump asked the crowd to march "peacefully and patriotically".
Like his supporters, nobody actually believed him.
It’s a bit like the 1970s pornographers who claimed they couldn’t be convicted of obscenity, no matter what the content of the movie, if they included a quote from Voltaire.
It’s a bit like the 1970s pornographers who claimed they couldn’t be convicted of obscenity, no matter what the content of the movie, if they included a quote from Voltaire.
Why don't you cite for the class...verbatim...the *exact* word(s) and/or action(s) that Trump spoke/took that constitute "insurrection".
Why don't you do the assigned reading before coming to class?
He said: "March peacefully and patriotically" but also said "fight like hell because if you don't you won't have a country anymore."
Typical Trump. Talking out both sides of his mouth. What does "fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore" mean? Does 'not having a country anymore' suggest that peacefully and patriotically marching would suffice to prevent them from 'having a country anymore'?
“fight like hell because if you don’t you won’t have a country anymore.”
Are you really so simple-minded that you're unaware of the many non-physical meanings of "fight" when it comes to political action?
Every politician uses "fight" as a metaphor in their speeches.
It's the ones that go with violent mobs that tend to get the attention.
Violent and armed, as he was fully aware, when he asked for the metal detectors to be removed...
Who are you trying to convince? The people there knew what he meant. We know what he meant. Trump knew what he meant.
This whole "he might have meant something else hypothetically" line of argument is pretty silly. It's not convincing anyone, even yourselves.
They all must have misunderstood.
Really?
Talking about "fighting" is done in politics all the time.
"I will fight for you!"
- Joe Blow Politician
Nobody disputes that politicians talk like that. What could possibly be different in this particular scenario? Its as if the entire time from the election up to and including Jan 6th didn't happen. What is amazing is Trump is so publicly transparent in all this and people still forget or pretend he didn't do what he publicly and obviously did do.
This piece of shit was happy to have the mob hang his own Vice Pres Mike Pence because Pence 'didn't have the courage to do what needed to be done.' What needed to be done again? Oh ya. Disregard his ceremonial role presiding over the joint session of Congress to count the electoral votes and unilaterally throw out states electors and appoint Trump the winner??
Quit being obtuse. None of this stuff happened in a vacuum.
David Welker, I agree with your comment completely, that is also my position. Perhaps this decision will change my mind when I read it. I wasn't convinced by the Baude - Paulsen paper, or any other writing making the case that Trump engaged in insurrection. But what do I know?
Trump should consider not appealing the decision. The Colorado GOP has already said it will cancel its primary if Trump isn't on the ballot. Democrats have won the last four presidential elections in Colorado, and Biden beat Trump by 13% in 2020. In all likelihood, Biden would beat Trump again in 2024.
So, come November, no Trump on the ballot, and Biden gets 95% of the vote or so. Fast forward to January 2005, the Congress is counting those electoral certificates, and Colorado's says ten votes for Biden. The House, having a GOP majority, objects, saying the state illegally excluded Trump from the ballot. Bye-bye, ten electoral votes.
Wouldn't that be fun? Wouldn't it be fun to read Somin's reaction to that?
It wouldn't be legal... "We don't like the State's procedures" isn't a reason Congress can reject a state's otherwise valid electoral votes.
I thought it was the Congress that ultimately decided if the votes of the electors was valid.
Congress has tried to grant itself that power through legislation. It certainly isn't in the constitution anywhere. If Congress really had that power, they would have complete power to decide who is President. The framers considered and rejected that method.
They also restricted some of their own power in the 2022 Electoral Count Reform Act. They can now only reject votes if they didn't come from a certified elector. They can't look to how a state decides to choose its electors in the first place.
I mean, in theory at least. They can also just do whatever they want, in theory.
They have every right to disqualify votes if the procedures used in generating them was faulty.
Again, you will not like living under your own rules.
I'm fine living under the rules the nation has now. It's MAGA rules which give me the willies
I’m fine living under the rules the nation has now.
If only you had even the slightest clue what they were/are.
More importantly, if only Trump did. Or cared.
The Constitution gives Congress the duty of counting the electoral votes. It doesn't give Congress any other power regarding electoral votes, like for instance ruling them invalid. If that weren't the case, the Presidency would always go to the candidate of the party in the majority in Congress.
They have every right to disqualify votes if the procedures used in generating them was faulty.
Not since 2022. They now have to go with the electors that the state certified. If the certification itself was faulty, then they can object. But they can't object to who the state decided to certify according to its procedures. Instead, they set up a whole new court process for that.
The argument wouldn't be "we don't like the state's procedures", it would be "the state's procedures were illegal and invalid".
They can't just declare the way the state counted the votes "illegal and invalid," especially if they had nearly a year to challenge that process and refused to do so.
Based on...what?
A court just ruled Trump committed insurrection in spite of never being charged for it and the evidence being a one-sided kangaroo court.
You cannot put the genie back in the bottle here.
Trump had the opportunity to present whatever evidence he wanted. It wasn't one-sided.
You really think that if you just repeat there isn’t any evidence enough times you can make the evidence go away? If you just call the American justice system “Kangaroo courts” you can just get people to prefer North Korea’s and those other forms of government and justice systems your great leader wannabe boss prefers so much to America’s?
Produce that evidence then. Nancy couldn't and she destroyed what she did have so fuck off with that baseless assertion.
It's all in the article you didn't read.
Based on extremely recent precedent. People tried to get votes thrown out in states that expanded voting access in ways that violated their state constitutions. The courts told them "Sorry, too late, you should have brought this to our attention before the votes were cast."
In one case (PA), the state supreme court ignored the plain language of the state constitution. SCOTUS ignored it as well.
In other cases suing "before" was tried, but, well, no standing. As always - the rules are (D)ifferent when they run the show.
Everyone is ignoring the truth but you?
Funny, that.
You have to challenge the rules of the game before you play. You can't agree to the rules (and in some cases, make them!), lose, and then call the rules unfair and have a tantrum.
I don't know what standing problems you're talking about but I doubt they're serious since you seem generally unserious.
"In one case (PA), the state supreme court ignored the plain language of the state constitution. SCOTUS ignored it as well."
No, they didn't. They said that it was too late to challenge the rule.
"In other cases suing “before” was tried, but, well, no standing."
No, that didn't happen.
"As always – the rules are (D)ifferent when they run the show."
Can you give me an example of votes being thrown out because Democrats challenged election procedures after an election took place? I thought not.
Illegal and invalid procedures have to be litigated in court. Congress isn't an adjudicator of last resort. But the time the count gets to Congress, the state procedures are presumptively valid.
The Supreme Court has already said that Congressional impeachment proceedings cannot be judicially reviewed. This means that party controlling a sufficient majority in noth houses can, if it wants to, drum officials out of office simply by going through the procedural motions of an impeachment and the forms of a trial, regardless of evidence. Whether or not the Senate can convict without hearing any evidence at all, it can hold a very perfunctory evidentiary hearing if it wants.
I think there’s a very good possibility it will say the same thing about electoral vote counts.
Based on what Constitutional language? Impeachment is spelled out, this isn't. If anything, SCOTUS will say they don't have any discretion at all when it comes to counting votes or not.
I would assume a Republican House will concern itself solely with what the law gives it power to do and simply won’t concern itself with the possibility obligations may come with that power any obligation the law may impose. I think that’s a a pretty safe assumption at this point. So statements that the House can’t are nonsense. Of course it can. All that’s necessary to throw out electoral votes is for both members of the House to do so. Even if such a decision is open to judicial review, which is by no means clear, they would still have the power to do it as an initial matter.
Nonetheless, they need a majority in both Houses of Congress to agree to throw out electoral votes. The House of Representatives alone cannot do it. Further, a number of Republicans who voted to certify Biden electoral votes in the last election are still in office, and while some of them have been “turned” and sought Trump’s forgiveness, not all of them have been. All is not yet lost.
That would be so much fun. The MSM would profit bigly as their ratings would go up.
If this stands it will be interesting what the reaction will be when the courts in a "red" state determine that an incumbent Democratic Representative is not allowed on the ballot because they, "having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress", encouraged BLM protests and some of these ended up with insurrectionists repeatedly attacking a federal courthouse.
I wonder if everyone stays on the same side of this issue. I suspect not given the hypocrisy that many on both sides consistently exhibit.
My personal opinion is that the bar should be very, very high, and not met in Trump's case, to disenfranchise voters by denying them the right to vote for whomever they want for President.
That said, keeping Trump off the ballot would result in an outcome I prefer. Biden would then have to compete against a Republican without the "anyone but Trump" vote that got him into office in 2020 - and I think the only likely Republican candidate that Biden has a chance of beating is Trump.
The latest polls show Brandon has no chance. I mean, look how he is polling among black people!
Not to worry. The Dem ballot harvesting machine will "find" 15 to 20 million ballots for Biden. It won't even be close.
By "find," I mean that big tech (Amazon, Meta, Alphabet, Apple, etc...) are gathering up data on all web users. They will identify tens of millions of likely Dem/Biden voters who are not likely to go to the polls. They will spend billions of dollars (that will be tax deductible since they will claim to be "non-partisan") on paid staff (called "volunteers" even though they are being paid) to go door to door to get people to register for mail-in ballots, help them vote, then collect the ballots. They will spend even more money on staff to embed themselves in boards of election to help them manage the mail-in voting process and "correct" any flawed ballots (Dem ballots only; GOP ballots will be allowed to fail).
If there were justice, these efforts would be illegal. The FEC and IRS would strip these groups of their 501(c)(3) status and fine them heavily. But that won't happen. Laws only apply to the GOP, not the Dems.
At the end of the day, you guys *support* Trump's efforts to overturn the election, you just keep getting caught out by the complete lack of evidence for voter fraud and all the actual evidence against Trump.
Nonsense! What about the tons of evidence Darth just made up? (I'm sure he can make up more, if that's not sufficient.)
Darth Buckeye makes a good point. How are Republicans supposed to win elections if tons of Americans actually turn out to vote? It's so unfair.
Attacking a federal courthouse isn't an insurrection.
Directly attacking a government institution is not an insurrection? Interesting theory.
You see, it's an insurrection only when Republicans do it.
When Democrats do it, it's high-minded statesmanship! Or a 'peaceful' protest! Or protected speech! Or whatever excuse of the month they decide to pull!
It is not hypocrisy; it is heirarchy.
It's false equivalence.
A child can see the difference between Jan 06 and this Courthouse attempted arson.
You cannot only because you put a lot of work into obliterating any sense of perspective.
One was an attack on the legislative branch, one was an attack on the judicial branch.
Bzzzt. Try again.
Directly attacking a government institution is not an insurrection? Interesting theory.
The reason Jan 6 was an insurrection isn't that Trump and his peeps attacked the Capitol.
No, that was a part of it: it was the battering ram that was supposed to open the gates for others to do the real work.
Attacked courthouses, burn down police stations, set up armed "autonomous zones".... hmmmm that's starting to sound kind of insurrectiony to me
Make that argument if anyone involved runs for president.
Many who excused the attack on the federal courthouse arew running for Congress.
Excused? Not true, and also weaksauce.
Where did those conspiracies about uNmArKeD vAnS come from?
“We’re looking for a guilty verdict and we’re looking to see if all of the talk that took place and has been taking place after they saw what happened to George Floyd. If nothing does not happen, then we know that we got to not only stay in the street, but we have got to fight for justice.”
Just another (D) pol calling for violence. Not atypical for the "summer of love" a couple years ago.
That is not a D calling for violence, you're just grasping at straws in order to fool yourself.
You need to grasp for calls for violence because you are defending Trump, who called for, planned for violence, and tried to take advantage of violence.
You are all for that, because you're so patriotic you hate democracy.
And thus you are reduced to these weak-ass quotes to support your defense of political violence.
It must be maddening, treating Democrats as illegitimate, and now finding out that it's not the same as being illegitimate and you're stumbling around looking for a way to make it real.
Fortunately, 14/3 doesn't say "engaged in behavior that sounds insurrectiony to John."
"Voters" don't have a right to vote for President.
I'm sure the reaction would be just as irrational and unhinged as the reaction to this decision has been.
Regardless of how "legally correct" this decision was, it is morally and politically wrong.
Even if Trump lied his ass off about vote fraud, even if he incited rioters, those actions are nowhere near any common sense definition of "insurrection" which comes anywhere close to Confederates, and he hasn't been convicted of any crime. This process, from trial court to Colorado Supreme Court, is the definition of a kangaroo court. History will not judge them kindly.
Much worse is the sheer political blindness of those 4 justices. I can't think of anything that would boost Trump's popularity more than such a farcical decision, or make it clearer than ever that the Deep State and DNC have zero scruples.
It turns out that the justification by the CO courts that Trump engaged in insurrection was that Nancy Pelosi’s hand picked J6 committee said that Trump had done so. With no Republicans on the committee approved by the Republican leadership in the House, no ability to cross examine witnesses, or call their own, or show exonerating, instead of cherry picked segments of video, and now to find out that the witness transcripts were shredded right before the Republicans took control of the House in January.
Repeating your partisan bullshit just means that you're twice as wrong.
Nothing he's saying is wrong. Their basis for declaring Trump an insurrectionist IS the farcical January 6th committee report.
Bellmore, what do you think is farcical about overwhelmingly convincing videotaped evidence, plus reams of testimony from erstwhile Trump supporters? Is it your misimpression that the January 6th report is nothing but a bunch of left-wing office holders making stuff up and bloviating about it? You had better get familiar with the evidence you are talking about.
What's farcical about a proceeding where every member was handpicked on the basis of their hating the subject of the proceeding? Where no adversarial process was allowed? Where records of the proceeding were destroyed before anybody who might oppose the outcome had a chance to see them?
It was a Star chamber, nothing more.
Republicans really, really fucked up. It's hilarious how their partisan posturing appears to be biting them so savagely in the ass.
What is amazing (but unsurprising) is how the TDS addled leftists in this forum play stupid when it comes to the membership of the J6 committee. Pelosi refused to seat any (R) member that she didn't pick.
She didn't pick the slate the GOP offered.
Do you often believe things that are utterly untrue? Seems bad!
Republicans refused to seat any members that weren't part of the investigation.
.
That is of course a lie. McCarthy proposed 5 GOP members, and she agreed to seat 3 of them.
overwhelmingly convincing videotaped evidence, plus reams of testimony from erstwhile Trump supporters
To what "overwhelmingly convincing videotaped evidence" of Trump committing insurrection are you referring? Be specific.
The Constitution doesn’t matter crowd is here.
You might not like what the Constitution says, but abcdef accurately described its qualifications and the relevant text.
Therefore I consider that you're admitting to being part of the "Constitution doesn’t matter crowd".
"Regardless of how “legally correct” this decision was, it is morally and politically wrong."
What do you think that means about the importance of the Constitution?
Diddly squat. I read it as a comment about the inherent failings and biases if the US legal culture, no more.
Not what he said, but your answer is dumb as fuck as well. Why not write off a branch of government because you don't agree with an opinion?
Of course you're not really. You'd get the fuck out of this country if you really thought the judiciary was this bad. You just like your rhetoric quite a bit more than you like engaging with the actual comments or OP or reality in general.
A grocer could legally prosecute a three-year old who eats an apple in his store, or his parents, for shoplifting, because apples are sold by weight, and the weight cannot be determined accurately once a bite has been taken.
Would it be morally or socially correct? Hell no!
Use your brain for once. The optics suck, the backlash will be exactly the opposite of what they want, it's a damned stupid decision regardless of how finely crafted it is legally.
This is not a minor and arbitrary enforcement decision among many, it is a specific judicial opinion about an important issue.
Your analogy utterly fails.
'Ignore the law and precedent and the judiciary, let me stand on morality' is extremely authoritarian.
'My opinion over all institutions and others' is the thinking of some really awful people and you should think about what it means that you're just that self-oriented.
Your rebuttal doesn't rebut a single thing I said. "Your analogy fails" is just an assertion, and adding "utterly" doesn't make it more so.
You are useless. Try contributing some actual thought some day.
An executive law enforcement action at an utterly different scale regarding an act of utterly different frequency means your analogy triply fails.
YOU are authoritarian. Institutions matter. Vibes are just a way to pretend your views are king shit.
They are not. Deal with this country you live in, not your feelz.
Your word salad explains nothing. There is no substance to falsify.
I'm the one saying the court is abusing its authority, you're the one backing it. Pretty funny how that makes me the authoritarian.
Why don't you address the meat of the matter, that their decision is politically counter-productive?
Because you are the authoritarian?
Because the end justifies the means?
I don't know. I'm asking.
'Regardless of how “legally correct” this decision was, it is morally and politically wrong.'
This is not about the court's authority. It's not about the institution of the court and it's judgements at all. It is about your personal morality and politics, and how to you they are more important than the law.
Saying courts should worry about political concerns above the law is just saying we shouldn't have courts.
I'm an institutionalist. My views exist, but are secondary to the law as understood by the institution. IOW I'll carp about Bush v. Gore being wrong, but I'm not going to say the Court shoulda ignored the law and put in Gore for the Good of the Country.
You, on the other hand, are marinating in exactly that place - the Colorado court should ignore their law and constitution and let Trump in for the good of the country.
Authoritarian, as I said.
'that their decision is politically counter-productive?'
Why? Because Republicans will be aggrieved? More aggrieved? Funny Trump and his supporters didn't think lying about the election, Jan 6th, and various fraudulent efforts were politically counter-productive, let alone legally, nor did anyone lecture them that they would be.
And yet you throw out my apple case as not relevant!
The whole point of my post is that the decision will backfire, same as any grocer pursuing an apple shoplifting case. Yes, the optics, the politics, of prosecuting an apple shoplifter really do matter, which is why no grocer would be as stupid as these judges.
You apparently think the grocer should prosecute apple shoplifters. Who's the authoritarian there?
Weirdly, there was a massive explosion in shoplifting recently that turned out to be completely bogus. Your shopkeeper might use this child to prove that he is being ruined by shoplifting!
Election, apple, same thing, a child eats one, Trump eats the other, let 'em off. If you reprimand them, Republicans might get scared and upset and start crying and have a temper tantrum and overturn democracy.
Yawn. You don't have an actual argument, which is why you spend so much time throwing around vacuous insults.
Looks like Cuntala’s disqualified too!
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1267555018128965643
Something wrong with encouraging people to post bail for arrestees?
You mean providing financial support for people advocating (and trying) to overthrow the gov't? I would expect it to be disqualifying, based on the way some in here are 100% behind the CO ruling. I'm sure it is (D)ifferent tho..
It would be Aiding and Comforting®™ Insurrectionists®™ under this extreme interpretation being promoted.
this and Trump’s other actions surely at least gave “aid and comfort to the enemies” of the United States” — as does voting or advocating to cut Pentagon’s budget, or criticizing Israel, etc etc — this provision seems so easily abused as to be meaningless, no?
Or refusing to appear for a subpoena. That could be considered pretty "forceful", too, if you squint hard enough.
I wonder who will represent Donald Trump on his petition for certiorari to SCOTUS. Whoever it is would be wise to charge a hefty, nonrefundable retainer.
not guilty, you left me the opening. So not guilty, in a moment of pique and insanity, pretend you accepted a tax free, non-refundable retainer of 10MM+. You told The Donald, "Yes sir, I will defend your Orange Ass and beat back this odious, dastardly and unAmerican challenge from the COSC.
Josh R above laid out different arguments ranging from; the POTUS ain't an officer, the POTUS didn't do it (the SODDI defense), there was no due process (law, what law), to whatever. Any are plausible. But the goal here is to get The Donald onto the ballot.
<not guilty, if you represented The Donald, how would you go about arguing the case to SCOTUS? What is not guilty going to argue before SCOTUS?
The goal being to get Trump onto the ballot, I would wait until January 3, 2024 to file the petition for certiorari, in order to preserve the Colorado Supreme Court's self-imposed stay of its own order. I would oppose any attempt to expedite briefing and argument. I would track the arguments set forth in Justice Samour's dissenting opinion. I would argue in the alternative that with the March 5 primary being imminent, SCOTUS should grant cert, summarily vacate the Colorado Supreme Court's opinion and remand for further proceedings pursuant to Purcell v. Gonzalez, 549 U.S. 1 (2006).
As David Mamet said, old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance.
I'll leave the legal opining to those who actually know what they're talking about. I'd like to comment on the political ramifications.
Politically, I think this ruling adds fuel to both the Trump Can Do No Wrong faction, and to the Please Dear God Don't Let Biden Be The Nominee Again faction. Colorado's court has come up with a definition of "insurrection" that is so sweeping and generic that it applies not only to Trump, but also to Occupy, Antifa, the BLM -- shoot, even the Stop Oil Now people.
Every time this broad standard is not equally applied, it will create a grievance. Today's politics run on grievance. It's literally their fund-raising business model. All that has to happen is to light the fire by not being even-handed in prosecution. And I think we can count on our intrepid government prosecutors to be that (and then some.)
So this 4-3 decision makes it politically much more likely that Trump will be the Republican nominee. Congratulations.
Of course people who think they can try to overthrow an election with impunity and without consequences become hugely aggrieved when that turns out to not necessarily be the case. That's the nature of such people. The alternative is simply non-viable, because sooner or later, with practice, they will in fact work out how to overturn an election.
You didn't read the decision.
Because if you did you would know that the court expressly did not "come up with a definition of "insurrection" that is so sweeping and generic..." because they didn't come up with any definition for "insurrection" at all. They simply recognized that any definition of insurrection would obviously include "a concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power in this country." (Opinion 99-100)
So if no one else attempts to hinder the peaceful transfer of power in the country, the opinion is completely silent on whether or not they are engaged in insurrection.
Try reading things before commenting.
Reason editors, I volunteer to help fix your broken edit function. Please contact me if you'd like some help. I'll even do it for free at this point, it's that's irritating.
I think you know you are wrong.
Should Trump carry CO that would be analogous to Jury Nullification. you cannot say that lawyers get to shut down "we the people" . This is your blind spot. I will return to it when your defeat is undeniable.
How will he carry the state, if his name (or more precisely the names of electors pledged to Trump) cannot appear on the ballot, and cannot receive valid write-in votes? He will get precisely zero votes on the official tally.
Trump Law. Par for the Colorado/Somin/socialist/leftist-shit course.
yawn
Somin: We're saving Democracy by not allowing people to vote for their preffered candidate.
Just like in Hong Kong and Iran.
Actually, just like the electoral college. It's amazing how many people who are quick to remind us that we are not a democracy and democracy is mob rule suddenly discover the merits of democracy when their preferred candidate is getting kicked off the ballot. Well, can't have it both ways. You either love democracy or you don't.
That ignoores high school history... and sooooo illogical. I suspect you don't take a stand for that reason
If it is wrong to bar someone from the ballot, it's wrong. Just because It's your guy doesn't mean you get away with it.And the Electoral College is securely part of the FOunding . Consider how it's computed . It follows exactly the Connecticut Compromise (look that up) Electoral College : Number of Senators + Number of Representatives,the COnnecticut Compromise
Now, go sue your highschool History teacher.
"If it is wrong to bar someone from the ballot, it’s wrong."
Perhaps that would've been a good reason for not ratifying 14A section 3. But it's been ratified, is part of the Constitution, and clearly bars some people from holding office. And if a candidate is barred from holding office, it's perfectly reasonable for a state to bar that candidate from the ballot. This may or may not apply to candidate Trump, but your general statement doesn't hold water. In our system, some people are barred.
Yet another idiot who doesn't understand the difference between an is argument and an ought argument.
No one is disputing that that's our system; the question is whether it's a good system. Most of the craziness of the last six years, including January 6, would not have happened without the electoral college, which strikes me as a pretty good reason to get rid of it.
That aside, your response completely ignores my central point, which is that you don't get to like democracy when you like it and not like it when you don't.
The Supreme Court will overturn but only on the narrow basis that the President is not an officer of the US - not the merits of the case.
The case would have to possess merits to overturn it on its merits.
I don't think they'll even go that far. They'll say that it's not justiciable in state courts, or that the plaintiffs lack standing.
That would be an interesting way to thread the needle.
God, I hope you are wrong. Can you imagine the Prof. Blackman crowing posts if that happens?
Whether section 3 is self-executing is kind of a red herring. Colorado has no direct power to make Trump be president or not, and that is not what they are doing here. What matters is *Colorado* law. Does Colorado law allow someone to be removed from the ballot in this situation?
I will say that broadly defining an offense and then making it self-executing is about the most banana-republic move imaginable.
Oh, please. They get away with this, the coming years will involve moves so banana republic you'll long for the days they only pulled shit like this.
If Trump gets away with trying to illegally overturn an election, though, it's as it should be.
(Which he probably will.)
I'm not sure you really understand what is meant by self-executing.
I'm pretty sure there's a federal right to stand for election even if the states administer the election.
No such right exists.
Is it possible that you think 3 judges have no idea what the law is.
Guess so .So now CO can pass verdicts before juries do --- and this doesn't bother you
Is it possible you think those three judges know more about the law than the other four?
Guess so. [I can’t mimic this part because it’s gibberish.]
To those posters threatening Prof. Somin's job and life for this post, have you considered you might be the baddies?
“Baddies” is a little too cutesy a word for what these twats are.
I don't agree with that, but the same question could be asked of those threatening Trump's life - and his job.
No one is threatening Trump's life or job.
Your attempt to deflect from the threats of violence in this thread is noted.
Wow! Its been noted.
You are such a flaming ass hole.
It is a vice of mine how you get so puffy and angry when I point out someone is an apologist for awful shit on the thread.
Name calling and moral preening is like all you do here. You are so unknowingly petty and impotent it's quite amusing on days like today.
Well, I'll make it a point to note that, but you're still a flaming ass hole.
On a completely unrelated note, didn’t many Democrats- including Biden, Harris, and many currently in Congress- offer support for people who advocated for the violent overthrow of the system back in 2020?
Man, it would sure be a shame if someone in Georgia were to sue in state Court to block Biden and Harris from the ballot there.
Just an observation. Completely unrelated to the Trump matter.
MAGA-style reasoning is never unrelated to the Trump matter.
No, it's
totally notcompletely unrelated to the Trump matter.I'm talking about Georgia, friend! And Biden!
Trump doesn't enter into the conversation at all!
Nobody. Biden made clear that supporting holding police accountable for unjust behavior does not mean supporting looting or lawlessness. You seem to have this idea that any criticism of police is equivalent to supporting mob violence.
You also seem to have this idea that what a couple of outlier Democrats said or what happened in a couple of cities somehow represents all Democrats regardless of what the overwhelming majority said and did. You take isolated extreme examples and falsely depict them as representative.
Immaterial. All it takes is one teensy sliver of a statement that can be construed as offering support for people whose actions can be stretched into being called an insurrection.
Are you sure that Biden never ever offered any measure of support for rioters, even indirectly?
I seem to recall Biden blaming Trump for the Portland Courthouse attacks. Seems to me like that's implicit and indirect support for people attacking the courthouse. Nevermind that Biden also disavowed violence in the same speech- courts can pick and choose which statements they consider.
Oh, and there will be no trial. Just a hearing before a Republican trial court judge whose findings will be difficult to appeal.
If that sounds ridiculous to you, I think you should pause to consider that many of us on the right feel the same way. This is ridiculous.
Democrats, CREW, and many anti-Trumpers don't realize the damage they just did to the American system. This will be weaponized against them, and we will all regret it.
Biden never called the judges in a besieged courthouse and demand they rule his way in a manner strongly suggesting the mob relresented pressure on them that could be alleviated if they made the “right” decision.
That’s far, far more than just implyimg support. That’s like Don Corleone offering an “opinion” to Peter Clemenza that the family would be better off if so-and-so wasn’t around any more.
Donald Tumo organized and directed assault troops. He organized and planned the assault well in advance. And in the middle of the assault, he called besieged members of Congress demanding their surrender.
Your bad fanfictioon is just that, bad fanfiction.
There is zero evidence Trump organized any riot.
Uh, maybe in your planet there isn’t. But on this one, the Colorado Suoreme Court discussed a great deal of evidence.
Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg. Saying there is no evidence doesn’t make the evidence dissappear.
The Coloraod Supreme Court riling is just bad fanfiction.
Biden never called the judges in a besieged courthouse and demand they rule his way in a manner strongly suggesting the mob relresented pressure on them that could be alleviated if they made the “right” decision.
So what?
Through the loosey-goosey definition of insurrection endorsed by the CO State Supreme Court, public statements is all that is needed.
Specifically, supporting a group that undertakes "a concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government" in the execution of law in a city or stat" is the new standard. Can you think of any Democrat who that might ensnare?
Biden and Harris for any support for the rioters even if they disavowed violence (let's not forget that Trump publicly disavowed violence, too!). Let's not ignore sundry other elected Democrats who went on twitter and yammered on like idiots, or anytime Senator Sanders opens his mouth demanding a revolution.
This standard allows for a lot of conduct to be swept up in the 'engaging in an insurrection' standard that CO just made. It could be paying for their bail of rioters (knowing that they'll just go back and riot some more), or supporting the cause of the attackers through words or political action taken. It could also be construed as publicly opposing the use of police force to restore order in areas like DC.
Ridiculous? Obviously.
That's what Colorado did... and that's what's coming our way. Buckle up, boy. If SCOTUS doesn't end this madness it'll make things much, much worse.
Weird how you cut off the rest of the quote from the opinion here, which makes the rest of your comment ridiculous. The actual quote is "a concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power in this country."
Honesty, how does it work?
I cut it off because the Court also wrote about all of the ways in which other things were also insurrections against the government and not just the peaceful transition of power. The Court relied on the "peaceful transition of power" bit for rhetoric purposes but it didn't limit the construction to only that.
I guess it makes sense that I'm arguing with someone who is now making the case that the COSC declared insurrections only exist when they inhibit the peaceful transition of power (which it did not do).
But please, do go on. If you have something substantive to address with my argument instead of trying to take a quote out of context, I'd be glad to entertain it.
Your comment is awfully aggressive for someone who blatantly lied about what the opinion said to make a dumbass analogy. They didn't define insurrection at all, and therefore your entire stupid comment above is really, really foolish. And now you're reading minds of justices, too!
I'm just pointing out you're a stupid liar, so my point's already been scored, honey. I don't argue with liars.
I t was a direct quote that went into paraphrasing. If you call that lying, then I can't help you.
Read the opinion. If you had, you'd know that the CO State Court toyed with several definitions, but didn't limit it to Trump's situation.
The idea that Colorado would say that insurrections only happen during the peaceful transition of power- which is what you're now saying that they said- is incredulous. You're wrong.
I don’t argue with liars.
Actually, you just did. The irony that this also makes you a liar is not lost upon me, too.
'All it takes is one teensy sliver of a statement'
Not like Trump, then.
Hey, I didn't make the rules. The CO Supreme Court made the rules.
Oh, and in the course of rewriting the 14th Amendment to get Trump, they also decided to rehabilitate Schenck in the process.
Nothing says "We're a serious court that knows what we're doing!" quite like a State Supreme Court that endorsed an overturned Supreme Court case on the 1st Amendment.
The Colorado opinion in your imagination seems pretty dumb and bad.
Luckily in the real world, we don't have this issue.
How long do you think that this opinion is going to stand?
No, you're trying to make the rules.
On a completely unrelated note, didn’t many Democrats- including Biden, Harris, and many currently in Congress- offer support for people who advocated for the violent overthrow of the system back in 2020?
No.
I read the opinion last night when it came out. It was a lot, and well-reasoned. Still, I was surprised. I honestly believed that whatever the merits of the issue, the Colorado Supreme Court would duck it.
My thoughts (which I'm sure others have already stated)-
1. Only one judge (and barely) agreed with Trump on the merits, and the merits was largely due process in terms of timing. There's also a bit about there should be a requirement for a conviction (see federal statute). I didn't find that very persusasive, and I didn't find the "not self-executing" bit persuasive either.
2. The other two dissenters concentrated on the Colorado state election law. I thought that their points were reasonable in terms of judiciousness, but the majority was better in terms of the text and the interplay with other provisions. Still, that's a state law issue and not going to be reviewed by SCOTUS. I honestly think that this was probably the best "out" for the state court.
3. The majority's opinion was excellent. The historical analysis was spot-on. As a pure matter of law, I think that they are correct. Moreover, given the required deference to the trial court's factual findings, I think they were correct to find that the facts were sufficient.
4. However, the case will go before SCOTUS. There are a number of ways that SCOTUS can reverse without reaching the merits or the facts; I assume that they will do so. I will make only one prediction- they will not reverse on the "office/officer/Blackman" theory.
The US Supreme Court could also uphold the decision or dismiss or otherwise dispose of the appeal without reaching the merits. It could say for example that Colorado is entitled to disqualify Trump as a matter of state law based on its own interpretation of “insurrection” without other states or federal courts having to do the same.
I think they should hear the case. But they could decide in a way that leaves the Colorado decision standing without deciding whether Trump is disqualified from other state ballots.
I .... I wouldn't like that.
Look, I think that purely as a matter of law, Trump would run afoul of sec. 3 of the 14th Am. But for prudential reasons, I don't want the courts to rule on the issue.
Letting the Colorado decision stand won't cabin it to Colorado- it would just lead to a patchwork of decisions in different states. I would rather SCOTUS decide the case in such a way that forecloses challenges (at least for the election period).
How would that work = SCOTUS reverses w/o reaching merits (or facts) in a manner that forecloses challenges?
The merits or facts of the insurrection.
There are any number of ways. They could say, for example, that there is a due process requirement for a full jury trial on any finding. Or they could say that it's not completely self-executing, and that Congress must either implicitly (through the criminal insurrection statute) or explicitly provide a mechanism for the determination. Or they could say that these determinations are non-justiciable, and must be determined by Congress.
Just off the top off my head.
Any prediction on which justices don't join the decision and would disqualify Trump or who joins the decision but decides to write separately to weigh in (one way or the other) on the merits?
In my dream world, the Court would release a minimal decision that is per curiam.
I doubt that egos of many of the current people on the Court would allow that, unfortunately.
The only really off-the-wall opinion I expect would come from Thomas or Alito. Maybe (maybe) Sotomayor from the left.
I don't expect any other truly off-the wall opinions from any of the other justices, but we'll see. Maybe Gorsuch wants to do a deep dive into "under".
It's kind of a weird case in a lot of ways; I mean, from an institutional Court perspective, they want a minimal decision that allows Trump to run. From a "Trump-y" perspective (Thomas and/or Alito) they want a pro-Trump decision ... but also from a partisan Democratic perspective (he's the weakest candidate). From a GOP perspective, they might want a decision that knocks him off, letting a better candidate run while harnessing the anger it provides (a 4-D chess solution).
From the "I'm just tired of Trump cases" perspective, eh....
Those merits...damn, there sure are a lot of ways to
duck the questionsavoid reaching the merits. What about the factual determination. I mean, the cake is baked, right, wrt factual determination?One could not write a fictional political thriller better than the political reality we have experienced for the last several years.
My gut tells me CJ Roberts will not decide the merits if he does not have to, and he will try not to. I base this conclusion from everything I have read here at VC over the years. Why? Partly institutional...why hand fodder to SCOTUS Naysayers? Partly legal...let this develop more at the circuit level before having to decide the merits. Partly because his past history seems to be narrowing the constitutional questions to be decided as much as possible.
The political fallout will be terrible. This is really a time to think about the if the shoe were on the other foot how would it feel test.
"I mean, the cake is baked, right, wrt factual determination?"
In terms of the standard, yeah. The record is also set as well. On appeal, you're dead if you're arguing facts- instead, you argue the law (or that the facts don't apply to the law).
However, as we have seen .... the Court can really put a spin on the facts in the record if it really wants to.
Yeah, that is the ballgame to me, legally = factual determination
'This is really a time to think about the if the shoe were on the other foot how would it feel test.'
And Jan 6th wasn't?
This is really a time to think about the if the shoe were on the other foot how would it feel test.
It would feel great! We don't view our politicians as precious cult leaders. In fact, we kind of don't like them on the whole. They are politicians, after all.
There's no shortage of people who want to be President. Who cares if one guy gets disqualified... especially when he's your weakest candidate! (As both Biden and Trump are.) The only reason y'all are crying about this is you have a really bizarre (and very misplaced) love for Trump. My advice: let him go! Start the healing process! Find a rebound candidate!
If the 2020 election and its aftermath played out as is, except switch Trump and Biden, hell yes Biden should never be president. I'm not so sure he should be disqualified under 14.3, but had he been the incumbent, he should have been impeached, convicted and barred from running for office by the Senate.
That depends on what the evidence is.
I assume the evidence is exactly what we had, but with Trump and Biden switched.
Then the evidence would not show FJB caused the riot.
I didn't Trump caused the riot. He attempted to steal the election and block the peaceful transfer of power.
But they will not.
They would more likely rule that Taylor Swift has a duty to have sex with Michael Moore!
They kind of ducked it with how the stay works? At least as far as the primary goes?
I don't think so? I didn't really look at it in detail, but IIRC, it's stayed until the day before the requirement for the Colorado Sec'y of State to act.
The assumption is that if there is an appeal to SCOTUS, that further proceedings will determine what happens next.
"Therefore, to maintain the status quo pending any review by the U.S. Supreme Court, we stay our ruling until January 4, 2024 (the day before the Secretary’s deadline to certify the content of the presidential primary ballot). If review is sought in the Supreme Court before the stay expires on January 4, 2024, then the stay shall remain in place, and the Secretary will continue to be required to include President Trump’s name on the 2024 presidential primary ballot, until the receipt of any order or mandate from the Supreme Court."
So as I understand this, once a cert petition is filed the stay of the ruling continues and the Secretary must still place his name on the primary ballot. This is kind of ducking that issue, but its also quite clever in that its not forcing SCOTUS to intervene immediately.
I've remarked before that I'm a fan of judicial modesty when it comes to granting stays, and I think that this is an example of one.
I was thinking about this and I think it's actually a sword of damoclese hanging over SCOTUS. CSC could recind the stay at any time if they don't like what they're seeing from SCOTUS. Even if SCOTUS reacted to preserve the status quo, it's still symbolic and drives a news cycle. Having their own pending stay is a way for CSC to stay in the game.
Two additional comments:
1. I am offering a theory under which the Supreme Court could uphold Colorado’s decision without making a decision for the country as a whole, on grounds that Colorado has independent authority to disqualify Trump under state law, including Colorsdo’s own definition of “insureection.” But it’s not the only possible theory, and the Supreme Court could use this case to decide whether Trump can be President again, and decide it for the country as a whole.
2. I think Donald Trump is absolutely entitled to Due Process. While state legislatures have a great deal of special power in Presidential elections, when they delegate power to citizens generally and when they take it away, they have to treat citizens equally and follow fair procedures.
However, this country has a long history of ballot qualification issues being decided by civil procedures. The common law writ of Quo Warranto was traditionally used to clami people aren’t qualified for office. I think this history and tradition makes a full civil trial with a court of record and appelate review constitutionally sufficient process. I think a mere administrative hearing would be insufficient, but a jury trial is not required. We have a long history and tradition that a bench trisl in civil court is the appropriate way to address this.
While the right to vote in Congressional elections is a kind of liberty interest, a constitutional right to have say in ones government, the right to vote in Presidential elections might be thought of as a kind of property interest. State legislatures could pick the electors themselves. They could let voters have only a partial rather than a full say. But if they choose to let the people have a say, they have to distribute whatever say they choose to give the voters fairly and equitably among them. Like any state-granted right, its existence is a creature of state law. But once granted, an individual can’t be deprived of it without Due Process of law and Equal Protection.
Same with camdidates. The Legislature could dispense with popular elections a pick a single candidate. It could let voters have a partial say but pick the candidates they get to choose from itself. But if it calls for an open election, candidates then have a state-granted right which cannot be deprived without Due Process and Equal Protection.
I think the constitutional posture of the right to vote and the right to be a candidate in a Presidential election, in addition to the historical use of civil procedures like the common-law writ of Quo Warranto to decide qualification issues, especially favors the constitutional appropriateness of civil procedures to resolve qualification disputes. I think a bench trial with appelate review strikes the right balance and satisfies due process.
Re point 1: Which Colorado law speaks to ballot eligibility for insurrectionists?
Section 1-4-1204 and 1-1-113 of the Colorado Election Code as authoritatively construed by the Colorsdo Supreme Court.
You're citing 1-1-113 as speaking to ballot eligibility for insurrectionists? It doesn't speak to any such thing. It provides a mechanism to challenge a decision by an election official. I mean, seriously. 1-4-1204 is at least arguably relevant, even if it doesn't say anything about insurrectionists one way or another, but citing 1-1-113 for that proposition is ridiculous.
1-4-1203(2)(a) is where it says: "Except as provided for in subsection (5) of this section, each political party that has a qualified candidate entitled to participate in the presidential primary election pursuant to this section is entitled to participate in the Colorado presidential primary election."
"Qualified candidate" is not specifically defined. The court construed it to mean that the person must be constitutionally eligible. (Perhaps a better argument would be interpreting "qualified candidate" as having met the requirements to get on the ballot stated in 1-4-1204(1), but that wouldn't disqualify Trump, as he's affiliated with a major political party and has presumably submitted his form/petition/filing fee.)
The real problem here is that even if you grant the court's interpretation of "qualified candidate", 1-4-1203(2)(a) defines which *parties* are entitled to participate in the Colorado presidential primary election, not which *candidates*. So if Trump were the only candidate, they could argue that the Republicans didn't have a qualified candidate and thus couldn't run a primary. But that's obviously not the case; there is at least one eligible candidate on the ballot. It might make *sense* to not allow people on the ballot if they're not eligible, but the law has to actually say so; you can't infer it just because the phrase "qualified candidate" was used somewhere else to do something else.
I think more than a few folks here are intrigued about the lack of legislation formally banning slavery. You put that idea in their heads, Professor. In the Age of MAGA we must be forever vigilant wrt to the language we choose because these jackasses will jump on almost anything.
I guess the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil Rights Act of 1866 don't count?
Well, the EP only applied in Confederate states, which is why slavery didn't end in Delaware until the 13th amendment was ratified in 1865. (And NOT on "Juneteenth", either.)
The 13th amendment could be self-executing in effect because when slavery ceased to exist for any legal purpose in the US with it's ratification, anybody who continued to hold slaves would be guilty of perfectly ordinary crimes such as false imprisonment, and couldn't use, "But he's a slave!" as a defense when charged with them.
My point is that the combination of the EP and the Civil Rights Act of 1866 was Congress effectuating the 13th Amendment through statute (the Emancipation Proclamation was indirectly incorporated by Congress through the CRA).
The Civil Rights Act of 1866 was intended to protect the rights of former slaves, not to abolish slavery.
It's certainly formally banned by legislation. 18 U.S. Code § 1589, for example.
Somin beclowns himself again.
As has been explained many times, "it's fairly obvious" that these broad definitions of insurrection lead to the surprising result that "insurrections" are a frequent occurrence in recent years, but that - lo and behold, the case of Trump is treated uniquely and unequally, double standard doesn't even begin to describe it. Shocker.
But yeah, the guy who repeatedly urged everyone to act peacefully and lawfully, and otherwise used rhetoric typical of today's Democrat politicians, was totally "engaged in it."
Did you even consider reading the OP or the opinion, ML?
Or is that not a thing you bother with these days of reflexive Trump and Confederacy defending?
And now...to get a barely purple state or two, currently under control of Democrats, to adopt the reasoning, we will finally get rid of our political opponent! We knew one attack or another must finally land after 57 separate initiatives over 7 years and counting, turning the power of government against him!
And unlike pesky impeachments, we don't have to bother with convincing his supporters he's so bad he needs to go.
This is the stuff. To heck with the merits or who has read or not read the OP.
Lets get into the FAN FICTION ZONE
[Stolen from somewhere when I was in grad school and edited to modernize]
12:05 PM eastern standard time, the Muslims have vanished.
Check for yourself if you don’t believe me. Where have they gone to?
There is speculation, of course. Scientists mention a cosmic storm that passed the Earth on January 20. A man says they are all in caves. Certain groups lament a faulty Rapture. A woman says he has taken their power and absorbed it into himself. She means Donald Trump. I doubt it, but he does seem somehow taller. The ground rumbles at times. The breaking news says WASHINGTON DC, with red concentric circles. I’m uneasy, but what can we do? Terror is defeated and if Obama were a Muslim, he’d be just as gone as them. But he is not. There is no cause for alarm.
Within months, Joe Biden has declared a war on vague unease. It’s a good idea, because frankly we could all use some peace of mind. Approval rating is higher than ever now that the Muslims had left, but I don’t think we are happy yet. His eyes are shining sometimes, as a deer’s eyes shine in a flashlight beam. Small fissures criss-cross the pavement. Trees are swaying, but the breeze is gone. Something is changing in our world.
Aeroplanes don’t exist anymore. Scientists explain that the density of the air is too low to support their wings. Then how do we breathe?! We should have died by now, but I think we are evolving. Our bodies haven’t changed, but the atmosphere..
One man says it was the rapture after all, and we have since entered the Kingdom of God. Trump is now the size of an oak tree. He sleeps outside since the rains have ceased, and his skin is thick to bullets. Now he wanders through he countryside impassively. He ignores a rural photo-op. He studies a leaf for twenty days. Only a fool would call this Heaven.
Satellites fall to earth like rain used to. No friction burns them away, so we trudge past countless flecks of solar panel and ribbons of golden cloth. It’s a silent car crash every few hours, though cars themselves no longer run. No oxygen remains to ignite their fuel. Trump strides across the landscape, taller than the Freedom Tower. We’ve given up on assassination; all men are immortal now, and guns no longer fire.
I’m starting to wish the Muslims were back.
We found them with a telescope. Images of a colony on the right side of the moon. See the parts that jut from the lower right? I think they’re mosques. Soon they are visible to the naked eye, but how? Their cities are enormous. We watch them as they live and die. They have our former atmosphere; the moon is fringed with blue. “Look at how they wield their guns,” writes a man. “I always said he’d take our guns away.” They eat and sleep like we once did, building worthless ziggurats. We have everything we wanted, but oh how we envy their strife!
I know now why he grows each day. In time, when we are ready he will reach out into space. He will raise us up in his great hand, to this new Earth that gleams like a frozen star. And if Trump does not carry us, we can climb…
I see Jewish hatred with a meme-driven clear conscience, driven by those without such smoke and mirrors. I see the US directing the power of government against a political opponent.
I hope I am wrong in both cases. I will continue to warn about it in both cases.
Yeah, I do hate the Jews!
We know, Sarcastr0.
Luckily, you don't speak for the Jews.
Just your asshole self.
🙂 Thought I was muted.
Really? Let’s look at what happened here. President Trump planned and organized a mob assault on Congress, coordinated with groups like the Proud Boys well in advance to ensure the assault mob has armed and organized instigators, arranged a small weapons-free security area so armed instigators could stay outsde it and remain armed. Any he not only refused to call any backup or do anything to help protect Congress during the assault, but he actually called both members of Congress and the Vice President to demand that they surrender and do his bidding while the mob was in the process of besieging and assaulting them.
That happens every day? Really?
"Coordinated" is doing alot of work there
Thank goodness the emails were obtained. Trump's organizers lied about whether Trump intended to arrange a march to the Capitol, concealing the genuine intention (and admitting it in writing) because they knew a truthful permit application would precipitate better security defending the legislators.
Arranging a march to the Capitol is not an insurrection.
So is "armed".
So is 'planned and organized'
Interesting. When did Trump get on the phone with the "Proud Boys" to plan this thing exactly?
Biden wins with 278 electoral votes. GOP takes senate as most assume. Voters split ticket enough so GOP hold House with say 220 votes.
Then GOP Congress refuses to certify Colorado's votes throwing election to House where GOP has more states. People happy with yesterday's decision?
Dammit! that was supposed to be kept secret!
One possible good outcome of that scenario would be if SCOTUS once and for all rules that Congress does not have the constitutional authority to "refuse to certify" a state's electoral votes.
"No one claims that the Twenty-Second Amendment deprives people of "liberty" merely because they become ineligible for the presidency if they have already served two terms."
No one claims that because the ratification process by which the 22nd amendment was passed WAS the due process by which two-term presidents were deprived of that particular liberty.
The only person who would have been in a position to complain would have been Truman. He registered his complaints but never tried to run for a 2nd term, much less a 3rd.
Truman wasn't affected by its provisions anyway. "But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term."
So, not even Truman has room to complain!
Under that logic, the ratification process by which the 14th amendment (including its Section 3) was passed WAS the due process by which supporters of insurrection were deprived of that particular liberty.
Who decides whether or not someone is an insurrectionist?
Fortunately, he's still on the ballot in a State (actually not a State) he can win, the District of Coloreds
"Twenty-Second Amendment"
the 22nd is part of the Constitution. That is why no one asks such a foolish question.
Since we're putting down our SCOTUS predictions here, I'm going with 6-3 remand narrowing the definition of "participant" but not "insurrection." Opinion by Gorsuch that reads like a speech in a period novel. Sotomayor and Jackson-Brown dissenting together and Kavanaugh dissenting separately. Thomas and Alito concur together to discuss the officer question, and Blackman never shuts up about it as long as he lives.
No guess whether SCOCO gets into a slap-fight with SCOTUS after remand by making the same findings, but I hope they do.
7-2 decision affirming that a state has plenary power to determine how its Presidential Electors are selected. Thomas and Alito in dissent.
Then it would be time to play hardball.
Look for state legislatures to do away with presidential elections, choosing electors themselves.
Time to "terminate" the Constitution, I think you mean.
States do have the power to do this, you know.
I think some state legislatures would have already done this, if they thought they could get away with it. I'm not sure any state's voting population would stand for it, at this point.
Reading all of the back and forth opinions of commenters on this subject is like watching a tennis match.
There are a lot of adverbs in this summary, Professor. Leaves me suspicious of your analysis.
Here is Jack Marshall's take on this.
https://groups.google.com/g/Talk.Politics.Guns/c/KReXbG_f9xI/m/cIn2_YqZAAAJ
Colorado’s Supreme Court Thrusts The Nation Into A Constitutional Crisis
DECEMBER 20, 2023 / JACK MARSHALL
Colorado Supreme Court yesterday became the first to declare former President Donald Trump ineligible to run for the White House under the U.S. Constitution’s insurrection clause in Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. This removed him from the state’s presidential primary ballot, but the court immediately stayed its own order until the Supreme Court settles the issue for all time. With several Democratic operatives and allies trying this legal Hail Mary to remove the major threat to the party holding on to the Presidency, it was inevitable that SCOTUS would have to deal with the crack-brained theory eventually.
The reaction to the decision was something I’ve never seen before: the desperate Axis (the resistance, Democrats and the mainstream media) was giddy about the decision because it provides some hope that Joe Biden won’t have to face Trump in the 2024 election, while conservatives and Trump-supporting Republicans were high-fiving each other because they believe the decision provides smoking gun evidence that the Left is trying to win an election by keeping its most feared political opponent off the ballot “by any means necessary.” That certainly is the sense that was conveyed by Althouse’s mostly conservative (but not strongly Trump-supporting) commenters last night. Althouse called the 14th Amendment ploy a “wild legal theory.” Here are the first 19 comments (the 20th is too long, but it also rejects the decision…):
“He wasn’t winning Colorado anyways…CO not thinking long game- what if he wins?”
“Whatever it is, the constant barrage has to be coordinated. Now there is no doubt in my mind.”
“Election interference, if there ever was such a beast, couldn’t be more blatant.”
“Colorado is the new Berkeley. Who would have guessed that 20 years ago? The left is insidious and must be broken for good. On to SCOTUS…”
“As a young Charles Bronson said in the Simpsons, “This ain’t over!”
“Kickin’ n screamin’ the USSC will have to take this one on.”
“You’re just begging me to vote for Trump with this crap, aren’t you? OK. You win. (Not that it matters; I live in a firmly blue state.)”
“I’m a conservative who will fight to the death to defend states’ rights. But Colorado’s decision to remove Trump from the ballot demands an immediate reversal by the federal government.”
“So instead of a Bill of Attainder declaring Trump guilty we have a Decision of Attainder?”
“Remind me again when Trump was convicted of insurrection or sedition?”
“Otherwise the people might actually vote for Trump. Presumably this is to save our Democracy.”
“I can’t wait to disqualify Democrats who supported the Black Lives Matter insurrection with their incitement.”
“The voters have to be prevented from voting for Trump……to protect democracy.”
“The Colorado Supremes are gettin’ high on their own supply.”
” …and since the SCOTUS believes the Trump lawsuits must be settled on the Democrats hurried timetable they will lack the capacity to consider any appeals of this decision until standinglachesmoot…”
“For Our Democracy it’s important that our betters bar unsavory candidates from the ballot, just like in Iran.”
“So dangerous. Are there any lines these people will not cross?”
“This is a Trump voter creation machine”
“Isn’t the “qualification” up to the voters? I thought we just went over this.”
It is hard to find anyone who thinks the ruling will stand. Prof. Turley wrote on “X” last night that SCOTUS might overrule the decision unanimously. (It should, but it won’t.) Even cautious analysts like the Election Law Blog hinted that affirming the Colorado ruling would be radical step for the Justices, writing, “In the end the legal issues are close but the political ramifications of disqualification would be enormous. Once again the Supreme Court is being thrust into the center of a U.S. presidential election. But unlike in 2000 the general political instability in the United States makes the situation now much more precarious.”
Translation: it’s a reckless, unethical and dangerous decision, and SCOTUS, at least a majority, will treat it as such.
Commenters on the Ann Althouse blog are big mad and didn't read the ruling.
Translation: No one cares.
giddy about the decision because it provides some hope that Joe Biden won’t have to face Trump in the 2024 election
Hardly! We all know that Trump's probably the only candidate Biden can beat! The main reason people on the left are giddy is because it puts SCOTUS in a tough spot. We know they'll reverse -- no one thinks Trump will actually be disqualified. But it'll be an awesome opportunity to beat up on Thomas... heavily. That's what we're in it for.
You know who else is giddy? THOMAS!
I bet he's hitting up the cocktail circuit right now. "Hey, lotta cases coming down. Did I mention that I could use a new RV and a trip to an exclusive lodge this year? I mean, you wouldn't want me to retire or something, would ya?"
when your definition of insurrection is "disagrees with government" and your definition of incite is "say things that make other people angry" then it's really not that difficult to come to this conclusion.
By that logic, Partrice Cullors, Nikole Hannah-Jones, and Charles M. Blow incited insurrections with their Hands Up, Don't Shoot lie.
And what about all those "traitors" who opposed the Vietnam War. You know, like the Smothers Brothers.
I'm writing in the ghost of Pat Paulson in 2024.
Jonathan Turley disagrees.
Jack Marshall disagrees.
Glenn Greenwald disagrees.
Michael Tracey disagrees.
Tell us about Tim Pool next!
Appeal to authority is a fallacy.
Appealing to the authority of a set made exclusively of anti-lib opinion wankers is a sign you've lost some fundamental media analysis skills somewhere along the line.
Mollie Hemingway also disagrees.
You are reading a mutually re-enforcing safe space for your priors. Consider broadening your world.
"Appeal to authority is a fallacy."
You like to say that, but is is not a fallacy, merely not a convincing argument. You like to appeal to authority whenever Fauci is discussed.
It's a fallacy if the argument is the claim is categorically true because an authority said so. But yes, most of the time it's just unpersuasive and especially in this example.
An argument I've heard for the (argued) exemption of the President and VP from the disqualification is that presidential elections are not federal and that imposing that rule on them would be awkward.
However, that would simply devolve the disqualification onto the states since they conduct the actual election with considerable deference as to rules.
I believe that the federal courts have a rather more expansive view of due process than Professor Somin and Justice Samour may have the right of it.
I can't help but remember how Trump's strategy for overturning the election including getting the voter fraud cases to the Supreme Court, who would hand him the presidency.
And the Cunt's®™ strategy in 2016 was an intelligence briefing for the electors.
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
Deflection! (with misogyny)
The Cunt®™ tried to overturn the 2016 election.
There is no denying it.
No she didn't. Not only that she didn't commit fraud, conspiracy or foment a violent mob.
Liberals have been lusting for "self-executing" powers for a long time. They wanted it in BOB JONES UNIVERSITY and nearly got it. They want any government official, no matter how minor, to have the power to decide that a particular person or entity seeking a government action can be denied that action because the applicant is flawed in some crucial way.
If you want to be a 501(c)(3) charity? Well, if you discriminate by race, then you can't be one. Never mind that 26 USC Sec. 501(c) creates no rule regarding racial discrimination and tax-exempt status. The Supreme Court.
What next? If you you are Chabad or some other Orthodox Jewish group and you want to incorporate? Nope. The clerk at a state level Secretary of State's office can deny you that charter because your organization won't conduct same sex marriages. The county recorder could refuse to allow your organization to record a deed reflecting the ownership of property.
This would be the ultimate wish list item for progressives. They can embed their true believers throughout government then prevent non-believers from organizing or even existing.
Positively lusting. And to make all other political parties illegal. And then the pogroms and reeducation camps.
Any other melodramatic bullshit you want to offer? It really sounds like you're psyching yourself up to support a dictatorship in order to avoid a this imaginary dictatorship you've convinced yourself is just around the corner.
Oh, and 'if you discriminate by race' is not a classification based on race.
Have you ever heard of Maraxus?
Because I will never forget Maraxus.
Here is Maraxus, writing in support of prosecuting Rick Perry for abuse of power.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/12/20/colorados-supreme-court-thrusts-the-nation-into-a-constitutional-crisis/#comment-860819
Back in 2014, this was an extremely fringe belief. There was no way Maraxus’s ideals could become mainstream.
Now it is clear that the Democratic Party adopted Maraxus’s ideals.
The Democratic Party is the party of Maraxus, now.
In the animated series Gargoyles, there is a character called Demona, whose schtick was vengeance against those who hurt her and her kind.
To deal with Maraxus, we must become the party of Demona!
No, this is not like Rick Perry's prosecution.
This 'Future Dems will do awful things if this happens' narrative weaving is think on the ground here.
It's the creation of an insane strawman that lets you rationalize defending anything you want.
To everyone else it looks like you're declaring you side must become like a children's cartoon *villain*.
How quickly they forget. Remember the lockdowns? No funerals? Elderly patients dying alone? Yeah, those same bureaucrats.
Those bureaucrats were dictators.
So sad that they saved millions of lives.
Here is Glenn Greenwald's take.
https://rumble.com/v42dziu-sustem-update-show-202.html
How can there be an insurrection, when not a single person, out of 100's that have pleaded guilty, or been found guilty of insurrection?
Trump was impeached for Jan 6, but insurrection was not one of the counts included.
Jack Smith has indicted Trump for Jan 6, but not insurrection.
To invoke insurrection, doesn't one actually have to have happened?
Inciting insurrection was the one and only article of impeachment.
You got me. I was too lazy to google it.
So one political accusation. No conviction.
Hundreds found or pleaded guilty of Jan 6 crimes against humanity, like parading, But not insurrection.
Its like people being found guilty of accessory to bank robbery, but no person ever charged with bank robbery.
Special Counsel appointed to take downTrump, files a multitude of criminal charges centered on Jan 6, everything BUT insurrection.
Neat trick.
This is the best piece I've read to convince me the decision was a wish-casting crock. If the mere threat of force constitutes an "insurrection," surely uncharitably interpreting remarks like "we will fight for X" or "if you do X, you won't know hit you" would constitute a threat of force? I love how the piece brushes over the definition as though it doesn't matter, when indeed, it is one of the only 2 things that does matter. A definition that incorporates most political speech is imbecilic, particularly when it can apparently be self-enforcing by a handful of partisans.
Let's arbitrarily define our own private, self-executing version of "insurrection" in a manner to achieve a particular outcome, despite the fact that no one involved in our "insurrection" has been charged with (actual) insurrection, and the man impeached for it was already acquitted for it. Why should we be compelled to use statutorily defined insurrection anyway if we can just define it as colorful speech?
This doesn't even meet the level of technical rigor employed by the 6-year-old who, upon being commanded to go read something, reads precisely that word: "something."
Is Ilya auditioning for MSNBC?
Seeing as these judges are trying to do the same, can we get them removed also?
Where's your argument to support your claim ?
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To be more precise, the violent attempt to stop certification, and to be even more precise, the violent attempt to stop certification and then the fraudulent attempt to obtain the opposite certification.
In the 200+ page opinion.
Are they breaking into Colorado’s secretary of state’s office, beating police and security on the way to “protest” Trump being on the ballot?
Come back with that question when they do that.