The Volokh Conspiracy
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Why Do We Have An Establishment Clause?
Speaker Mike Johnson was both right and wrong
Last month, House Speaker Mike Johnson caused a stir by stating in an interview that "the separation of church and state is a misnomer." Johnson was responding to a skeptical interviewer on CNBC who asked whether it was appropriate for Johnson to be seen praying on the House floor. In response, Johnson said the following:
The Founders wanted a vibrant expression of faith in the public square because they believed that a general moral consensus in virtue was necessary to maintain this grand experiment in self-governance….
The separation of church and state is a misnomer. People misunderstand it…. It comes from a phrase that was in a letter Jefferson wrote. It's not in the Constitution. And what he was explaining is, they did not want the government to encroach upon the church, not that they didn't want principles of faith to have influence on our public life."
We need more faith in public life, he continued:
Not an establishment of any national religion. But we need everybody's vibrant expression of faith, because it's such an important part of who we are as a nation.
Critics objected that Johnson's sentiments were dangerously ahistorical and un-American. But Johnson was at least partly right--which means, of course, that he was also partly wrong. He was right about the phrase "separation of church and state" not appearing in the First Amendment, but in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote about a decade later. The Supreme Court picked up Jefferson's phrase more or less by accident in the mid-nineteenth century (you can read about it here). And he was right that many of the Framers thought religion essential for public morality and would not have objected to religion's influence on government.
Where Johnson went wrong, though, was presenting those views as the only ones. Plenty of people at the time of the Framing thought that the Establishment Clause was there to protect Christianity from state corruption. But others thought that the Clause was meant to keep government free from religious bigotry and fanaticism, which had ruined European politics for centuries. Indeed, Madison's famous Memorial and Remonstrance, written during the Virginia Assessment Controversy of the 1780s, argued against a tax for the payment of clergy on the ground that such a tax was dangerous both for the church and the state. Presumably, Madison knew he had to appeal to both sides if he wanted to prevail (as he did).
As Phillip Munoz has recently shown, Americans have been debating the point of the Establishment Clause from the beginning--and they continue to do so now. Johnson presented one side of that debate, but it's not the only one. My colleague, Marc DeGirolami, and I have recorded a podcast on Johnson's comments that explores the controversy in more depth. You can listen to the episode here.
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Choose reason. Every time.
Choose reason. Every time. Especially over sacred ignorance and dogmatic intolerance.
Choose reason. Most especially if you are older than 12 or so. By then, childhood indoctrination fades as an excuse for gullibility, backwardness, ignorance, bigotry, or superstition. By adulthood -- this includes ostensible adulthood, even in Louisiana -- it is no excuse.
Choose reason. Every time. And education, modernity, freedom, science, progress, inclusiveness, and the reality-based world. Avoid ignorance, superstition, backwardness, authoritarianism, dogma, insularity, bigotry, and pining for "good old days" that never existed. Not 75 years ago. Not 175 years ago. Especially not 2,000 years ago, except in fairy tales suitable solely for young children and especially gullible adolescents.
Choose reason. Every time. Be an adult. People are entitled to believe as they wish, but competent adults neither advance nor accept superstition- or nonsense-based argument or positions in reasoned debate, especially with respect to public affairs.
Choose reason. Every time. Be an adult.
Or, at least, please try.
Thank you.
Would it be morally permissible for better Americans to campaign for votes among Muslims, so long as the Muslim votes are being sought in order to counteract clinger Christian votes?
I raise the urgent moral question because I saw that shocking video with Muslim parents challenging sexually explicit material in school libraries. Is it morally acceptable to seek the voters of such reactionary superstitious bigots?
60s feminists, who railed against oppression of women worldwide, no less in Muslim nations, especially with heavy clothing covering, were cancelled into silence by their betters who were lickspittles to sheer numbers, wanting votes to win over demonic American Christians.
I choose reason every time. But do so against all religions, including the pseudo-religions of politics.
Why do we have an Establishment Clause?
One important function of the Establishment Clause is to protect religion from being subsumed by the government. Christianity flourished in apostolic days, in the face of a Roman government that was intitially indifferent, and then hostile, to the Christian church.
In Acts 17:5-7, some rabble rousing Jews in Thessalonica "gathered a crowd, set the city in an uproar, and attacked the house of Jason, seeking to bring [Paul and Silas] out to the people. And when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brethren before the city authorities, crying, 'These men who have turned the world upside down have come here also, and Jason has received them; and they are all acting against the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.'" (RSV)
Isn't it amazing that Paul and Silas needed no help from Caesar to turn the world upside down? Think about it.
Christianity would do better if the churches were torn down, corporate entities dissolved, priests and ministers defrocked, and returned to meetings in private homes presided by volunteers. With the First Amendment still in force to prevent persecutions.
Says the partisan hack who wants everyone else to follow his ideas on religion as if they were handed down by God.
Awesome comment.
I respectfully disagree -- separation of church and the Federal government was installed to ensure that no state would be forced to adopt another state's church.
In 1789, each state had it's OWN official church and the purpose of the clause was to guarantee that they could KEEP IT.
Massachusetts was Puritan (which is called Congregational today), as to a lesser extent were NH & CT. Pennsylvania was Quaker, Maryland Catholic, and Virginia fallen Anglican. A century earlier, Massachusetts had hung Quakers on Boston Common -- for being Quakers in Massachusetts -- and this hadn't been forgotten. Conversely John Adam's father-in-law was a minister and Adams wasn't going to harm the Congo Church.
Let me discuss Massachusetts because I am most familiar with it.
Each town was required to have a municipal minister (paid out of the property tax revenue) and to have a church (likewise funded). The minister was given an annual "firewood allotment" to heat both the parsonage (his house, which the town also had to provide) and the church itself.
The annual town meeting was held in the church and the vote to rehire (for another year) or fire the minister was straightforward, the women had already decided how their husbands would vote. The firewood allotment, wood which the men would have to cut, split & haul, was debated.
Massachusetts remained a theocracy well into the 1800s.
"[S]eparation of church and the Federal government was installed to ensure that no state would be forced to adopt another state’s church."
Uh, no. The First Amendment Establishment Clause, from 1789 until the eve of World War II, (Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296, 303 (1940),) was considered to restrain only Congress. During that time the First Amendment did nothing to preclude one state from adopting another state's church.
Adopting doesn't seem to be the issue. One faction gaining dominance of the federal government, then using that power to ram itself down into other states, wiping away their factions seems to have been the issue.
Yes, "adopting" and "being forced to adopt" seem to be sufficiently different that one would be surprised that anyone could mistake them.
But this forum is a constant source of surprises.
In 1789, each state had it’s OWN official church and the purpose of the clause was to guarantee that they could KEEP IT.
I suppose that it is small, and thus easy to forget, but Rhode Island certainly had no established "official" church. Roger Williams founded it after being kicked out of Massachusetts over religious differences. Namely, that he thought that the civil authorities should be separate from religious authorities so that people could be free to say, think, and believe what they wanted about religion.
Pennsylvania was a sanctuary for Quakers, but one of the whole points of being Quaker is to not have a church hierarchy. (They also believed in women's equality in spiritual matters.) I don't think Quakers established their beliefs in the same way that other colonies did. Delaware didn't have an established church either, I think. And even before the Constitution, Virginia passed an act depriving their established church of tax support in 1779, and defeated an attempt by Patrick Henry to reinstate it, passing the Act For Establishing Religious Freedom instead in 1786. (Any guesses which Founders were leading the drive for that Act?)
Disestablishment was moving along quite nicely at the time the Bill of Rights was ratified.
Exactly. That is the precise historical purpose of the clause.
An "establishment of religion" is a state church, like the Anglican church in England. Several of the states had them at the time the Constitution was adopted. And they wanted reassurance that the federal government would neither interfere with their state churches, nor try to establish a federal church to compete with it.
By the time the 14th amendment was adopted, of course, no state any longer had a state church, and incorporating this command placing the whole topic off limits against the states was unproblematic.
Maryland was not Catholic in 1789. During the so-called "Glorious Revolution," in the only battle fought in the British colonies, the Protestant faction in Maryland burned the Catholic capital of Maryland, St. Mary's City, and move the capital to the Protestant city of Annapolis. The Toleration Act was repealed and the public practice of Catholicism was forbidden. The Anglican Church became the established church in Maryland under an act passed by the General Assembly in 1692. The Anglican Church was disestablished in 1776.
Kind of weird you're not supposed to pray in Congress but the House and Senate have had official chaplains since the founding.
William Lind was the first House Chaplain, and his selection was the first order of business of the first Congress.
I don't think there is any valid constitutional objection.
On Tuesday, will we hear the UN Security Council sing "Victory in Jesus" (or something similar)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqoVpJF9leE
I think of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause as two sides of the same coin. A person trying to exercise their religious freedom is stymied from doing so when the government puts its stamp of approval on a different religion, uses language and traditions from the official religion in public ceremonies, uses public money to support that religion, and so on.
Said more simply, a person cannot be free to exercise their religion if the government can impose the religion of the majority upon them.
With regard to the federal government, pro-religionists and pro-secularists have been rivals for influence since the founding, and before. Prior to the Civil War the pro-secularists at least held their own. Since then, it has been going mainly in the other direction.
As a pro-secularist I do not think it possible for any government— state or federal—which practices public religious insistence to treat all its citizens with equality. Pro-religionists think otherwise, and practice religious insistence under government auspices as much as they can—whether to reassure themselves or to oppress others I cannot say. To me, current religious practices of governments in the U.S. seem to reflect a mixture of both motivations.
Tension of that sort is traceable in American history at least back to the early days of Massachusetts, when a famous schism along those lines developed among Puritans. The so-called Antinomian Controversy of 1636 to 1638 played out as a victory for the religion-in-government side, and to the discomfiture—including banishment for some—of other Puritans, some of whom had been among those most oppressed by government while in England. In a comment above, commenter captcrisis somewhat accurately summarizes the views that English experience had instilled, if not actually imposed, upon those more extreme Puritans. They were at once fervently religious, and so distrustful of government power that they sought to deny to government any religious role at all.
My comment above was meant to stand on is own, not as a reply to JasonT20, although I tend to agree with what he says.
I think this is about half right, so long as we recall that this was only a restriction on the federal Congress, and had nothing to do with the States. So States could have their established religions, and States could prohibit the free exercise of religion - it was just the federal government that was required to stay out of the subject altogether.
But this "A person trying to exercise their religious freedom is stymied from doing so when the government puts its stamp of approval on a different religion, uses language and traditions from the official religion in public ceremonies, uses public money to support that religion, and so on" is obviously a wild exaggeration.
It depends on the details. To take the obvious one - because it is the one that exercises secularist fanatics the most - let's look at public money.
If the government spends public money to support, say, the Roman Catholic Church - eg in financing RC schools, building RC churches, paying stipends to RC priests etc, that doesn't prevent anyone else exercising their religion - except to the extent that they have to pay taxes to finance this support.
But this support would have to be enormous in scale for it to have any material effect on adherents to other religions. That 0.25% of your taxes might go to support the RC church could not reasonably be described as prohibiting the free exercise of your religion. If 0.25% is too much for you to be able to practice your religion - what about the other 99.75% ?
If the government spends public money to support, say, the Roman Catholic Church – eg in financing RC schools, building RC churches, paying stipends to RC priests etc, that doesn’t prevent anyone else exercising their religion – except to the extent that they have to pay taxes to finance this support.
I was more definitive than I should have been in my statement. If I could modify to address your point, I would say that one cannot equally exercise their religion when the government shows preferences to a different religion.
It's not just about tax support either, as it never is. Once the government starts favoring one religion or set of religious beliefs over others in any way, it just can't help continuing that in other ways. Some of the leaders that follow that religion basically get the sense that theirs is the "correct" religion and won't be quiet about that. All of the Ten Commandments monuments, fights over prayers before legislative meetings, and on and on are efforts by the majority to assert dominance in religious matters.
So, yes. An established religion doesn't have to mean that those with minority views can't practice their beliefs. They can, as long as they don't get too noisy about it.
.
I mean, there's established and there's established. The UK still has an official church, but I doubt religious minorities there feel particularly restricted in their own religious observance by dint of that fact.
True.
But remember that it was only about 160 years ago that Jews were allowed to serve in Parliament, over much opposition.
In general I am suspicious of slippery slope arguments of this nature. I think compromises, half measures and boundaries are part of nature of democratic constitutional government. In order to have a functional democracy, people have to be able to trust that they can give the other side an inch without their taking a mile.
The current rules permit government to favor the majority religion in a variety of ways, what days are public holidays, when decorations are put out and their content, lots of ways large and small. In general, I think people have to set a boundary between appropriate accommodation of the majority religion and acts that would constitute establishing it. I also think establishment and free exercise are different things. You could in principle have a state religion (as the UK does) without suppressing minority religions.
So while I agree the two clauses impose boundaries, I disagree with the slippery slope approach. An attitude that if we give the other side an inch they’ll take a mile is generally speaking just not an appropriate argument for our society. People just have to be able to give the other side inches, reach a compromise agreement, and trust each other enough to expect things will stay that way. If we can’t have that, we can’t have a functioning government or civil society.
An attitude that if we give the other side an inch they’ll take a mile is generally speaking just not an appropriate argument for our society.
Well, the "other side" is seldom monolithic.
Some are happy with their inch. Others grab for the mile, or more. If the two groups are otherwise politically aligned, the former may find it useful to help the grabbers.
Lots of grabbers around these days.
Lee Moore, your denunciation of, "secularist fanatics," gives your game away. Your prescription actually to establish the Catholic Religion is defiance of American constitutionalism.
A secularist can reasonably indulge superstitions of fellow citizens, and not unreasonably suppose practice of religious liberty does little harm, and may do some good—so long as that practice neither picks the secularists' pockets, nor breaks their legs. You advocate the pocket-picking; experience shared among some of this nation's earliest European settlers shows that where that is condoned, the leg breaking will be along presently.
It is not for nothing that the term, "Star Chamber," became a recognized invocation of tyranny. Relatively few who get that could describe in detail the pro-religious establishment activities which made that name infamous. But the history is there for anyone who cares to learn it.
There's something a bit anachronistic about your analysis here. Remember that people were, on average, much, much poorer at the time of the founding, living enormously closer to the bare edge of survival. The industrial revolution had not yet dramatically increased the productivity of the economy.
In 1790, according to the first US census, 97% of the population lived in rural areas, and about 90% were engaged primarily at agriculture in one way or another. It had to be that way, because farms were not terribly productive before the advent of synthetic fertilizers and powered farm machinery.
At the same time, and in large measure because of this, government budgets were very modest compared to current levels of government spending. They had to be, there just wasn't that much surplus you could tap from the private sector without causing mass suffering.
So, public support for an established religion could very easily be a significant and burdensome fraction of your tax bill.
Do you happen to know how much those States with established churches actually spent on them ?
That they did is widely documented, the exact amount? Haven't found that.
I'm just making a general point here: Today's governmental budgets are so huge that supporting a state church would be a rounding error. Not so at that time.
If the government spends public money to support, say, the Roman Catholic Church – eg in financing RC schools, building RC churches, paying stipends to RC priests etc, that doesn’t prevent anyone else exercising their religion – except to the extent that they have to pay taxes to finance this support.
But are you claiming that this financial support would not violate the Establishment Clause?
Of course it would, by privileging the RC church above others. And it would necessarily strengthen that church, letting it expand more easily than others.
Right. I would say that a general support for religion does not violate the establishment clause, but singling out one particular religion for support certainly would.
I would say that a general support for religion does not violate the establishment clause,
I think it does. There are, after all, atheists and agnostics and, for that matter, believers who do not belong to any church but have their own set of religious beliefs.
Besides, there are inevitably practical - or maybe political problems in deciding what constitutes a religion deserving support.
I am with the "others thought that the Clause was meant to keep government free from religious bigotry and fanaticism." We seem to have Christian nationalists, including the Speaker, in Congress. We need to have a strong wall keeping them from imposing their beliefs.
Brett, that's the same thinking used in upholding "in God We Trust" on money, "under God" in the Pledge, giant crosses that are war memorials on public land, and so on. They are so 'generic' in their meaning as to not constitute establishment of religion, they argued. I disagree for this reason:
There are Christians that don't see it that way. Instead, they see all of that as an endorsement of their beliefs. That is why they get so upset when people threaten those things in lawsuits. It only threatens them because they feel like it is them, specifically, that is being attacked. Even more specifically, it is their place of dominance in the culture of the nation that they view as being attacked.
This is what is behind Christian nationalism. They want to believe that the U.S. is a Christian nation and that they will hold a privileged place in both American society and government because of it.
Excellent point, Jason.
bernard : But are you claiming that this financial support would not violate the Establishment Clause?
I wasn't, but I will now.
1. Let's finish with the free exercise clause first. My point is that government funding of religion A does not amount to prohibiting the free exercise of religion B, unless the taxes extracted to fund the financing of religion A are so large that religion B cannot be exercised freely as a result of its tax-induced penury.
The argument that these taxes constitute a prohibition on the free exercise of religion B cannot simply be applied to taxes that support religion A, but must be applied to any taxes the adherents of religion B suffer. Thus if religion B adherents suffer $100 of taxes to finance support for schools, for every 25c of taxes they suffer to finance religion A, then government support for schools is just as unconstitutional as government support for religion A.
By just as unconstitutional I mean four hundred times more obviously unconstitutional. The free exercise argument against government support for religion A simply doesn't make it to the runway, never mind get off the ground.
So, on to the establishment clause.
2. "establishment" referred to the sort of thing that existed in England and in various US states. It didn't mean the same as "favoring" or "supporting." It included things like the requirement to be a member of the established church to hold various state positions. But also the established church was obliged by law not to change its doctrine, worship etc without the permission of the state. The church has its role in the governance of the state, but the state has its role in the government of the church. It's not merely a question of money, it includes legal privileges and legal obligations. The Church of England's bishops are, as a matter of law, still selected by the Prime Minister.
Contrast "establishment" and "favor" in the same way that you contrast "baseball" and "ball game." Not all ball games are baseball. Baseball is a very particular type of ball game. Likewise not all favor or support is establishment. Establishment is a very particuar type of favor.
So, no, what I described in my RC hypo is not "establishment" it's just "favor." My hypo did not involve any mutual entwining between the RC church and the state, it was just a flow of cash. That doesn't make it a good idea of course. But it's not establishment.
Mark, you are still wrong
A nebulous always-debated lawyer-attracting right is not an unalienable right that normal citizens can depend on.
Establishment Clause is exactly what you fear it is 🙂
I think the history here is quite muddled. The clause as originally enacted was as much to protect State establishments of religion from Federal interference as to take religion out of government generally.
So an answer in terms of the civic lesson one wants to convey is going to be different from an answer based on historical accuracy.
ReaderY, consider this from Washington in 1790:
All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.
It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my Administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid.
That sounds like a more general invocation of religious liberty, protected by the federal government, than what you describe.
The post is very high level, but it seems to miss a distinction between what individuals believed at the founding, and what individuals believe the Establishment Clause meant. The citation to the Thomas Jefferson letter is a classic example of that.
That some people at the founding preferred one policy or another is not the same thing as saying that the Establishment Clause (or any other clause) enacted by the People means a certain thing.
Sometimes, what historical texts were intended to mean is best understood in reference to the explicit intentions of the folks who wrote them. While I get that that otherwise obvious hypothesis is treated as heresy among would-be originalist, it at least avoids the other side of their problem—that usually in cases where they insist that what the text meant at ratification be determined by public understanding, no such consensus even existed.
Ratifications were state-by-state. Textual meanings got powerfully inflected by varying local contexts. On some of today's most contentious issues, like the meaning of the 2A, the joint national ratification was comprised of actually opposite understandings at the state-by-state level. The only valid historical interpretation of that which a would-be originalist can rely upon, is that there must be some other way to determine whatever meaning that history has to deliver.
The authors of the 2A provide that, because what they wrote, and what they omitted to write, was of course calculated with the messy reality in mind. So they restricted the federal meaning to the Militia Clause, which was the one aspect which got political assent from the states generally.
It's my understanding that different Founders had different reasons for wanting an Establishment clause.
Some were against religious establishments. Some were OK with religious establishments *in their own states* but didn't want the federal government getting into the act with its own establishment.
A Massachusetts politician might trust his state to have an establishment (which it did) without wanting Congress to provide a competing (or superseding?) establishment.
That's why the clause actually just placed the whole topic off limits: Congress could make no law "respecting", which is to say, having anything to do with, an establishment of religion. The whole topic was forbidden as a subject for legislation.
It’s my understanding that different Founders had different reasons for wanting an Establishment clause.
Of course they did. should we really think that they were unanimous in their views? All this "the original purpose was..." is bluster.
The Constitution is a social contract, and was sold as such to the People, who are sovereign. That's why "original understanding" is the correct question -- what did the People understand they were agreeing to when they enacted the Constitution, or one of the amendments if that is what is at issue.
As my old partner used to say, I am not buying a pig in a poke. Neither were the People of the United States. That someone at the Founding era thought one thing or another is interesting, but utlimately of limited import.
The social contract is a social contract. It is not a thing that is written down.
The Constitution is a Constitution. It is not always written down; this one is.
This is an originalist argument:
Constitutions at the time of the Founding were not interpreted via original purpose, meaning, or intent. They were interpreted as a common law legal corpus.
The originalist argument is that becuase this was a written constitution, things were different. Except that contemporary understanding of the legal community says otherwise (As Will Baude's research has shown).
So a *true* originalist understanding of the Constitution would follow precedent not go ever back to the text.
But I don't even buy that. The Constitution is a functional document; it is a framework not a talisman.
Originalism is, itself, a pig in a poke. It's no more clear in it's outcomes than any other cannon of interpretation, nor is there some Holy Legitimacy it conveys if you follow the Correct Way.
I actually like how the Court liberals have taken to doing opinions lately, which is go through multiple interpretive paradigms and see where they end up, with originalism as an element, but not the only one.
The problem, Sarcastro is that it callilng it a "Framework" is halfway to reducing the constitution into word game theory in which words can be made to mean anything.
The Constitution is a social contract, and was sold as such to the People, who are sovereign. That’s why “original understanding” is the correct question — what did the People understand they were agreeing to when they enacted the Constitution, or one of the amendments if that is what is at issue.
What a hilarious idiotic argument this is! BL, you've really outdone yourself here. I've become accustomed to your bad faith and mischaracterizations, even inured to it, but I would never have attributed to you, even as a strawman, such a sophomoric argument. Truly amazing.
Suffice it to say that, if the Constitution is a "social contract" among the people who acceded to it, then certainly the "original understanding" may be relevant to interpreting it for those people. But explaining why we, several generations on, are bound both to that same social contract as well as an interpretation of the social contract whose relevance is specific only to those who actually "agreed" to it, is going to get you in a bit of a pickle. That is to say, any argument you provide for justifying my being bound by this same social contract is going to require a political theory that will make it hard to argue that I am also bound to the social contract as originally understood.
Never mind the "meta" problem you have here, which is explaining the relationship between the Constitution as a "social contract" and the "social contract" that makes "constitutionalizing" possible or recognizable in the first place. That is, you have a social contract under your social contract. The theory is a mess.
It's like some computer engineer confidently asserting that math is empirically verifiable. What a maroon.
...what did the People understand they were agreeing to when they enacted the Constitution, or one of the amendments if that is what is at issue.
If the Constitution is viewed as a contract, then you have to accept that contracts can only bind the people that agree to it. I never voted to ratify the Constitution, nor did I vote for anyone that was able to do so in a state legislature or convention. But rather than through out the baby with the bath water, so to speak, and view the Constitution as not binding on me because I never agreed to it, I would argue that it is preferable to allow for flexibility when deciding how to interpret provisions of the Constitution that are open to interpretation.
Now, if amending the Constitution didn't have such a high bar for consensus, the going with an "original meaning" according to people dead for 100-200 years might seem more reasonable. But the we are still left with the fact that judges and lawyers are not trained in history. Their study of history is limited to what laws were passed when, what was decided in past cases, and so on. Their understanding of how to discover "original meaning" according to the public that lived that long ago is the same as their ability to discover how life began and developed on Earth when considering a case about teaching evolution in public schools. They can read the facts, analyses, and conclusions drawn by professional historians and professional scientists, but that doesn't mean that they can figure any of that out on their own.
I don't understand, B.L.
Who are these "People?" Does it refer to the voting population of the time, in which case what about people today who would not have been included, and whose concerns might not have been reflected in the document?
Leaving that issue aside, how can we possibly know what the "People" understood? Would they all really have had the same understanding? I doubt it. People today disagree about meaning, and not just of the Constitution. If we can disagree about the meaning of, say, recent statutes, or even contracts written for a specific narrow purpose, how can we say that there was one understanding then?
what did the People understand they were agreeing to when they enacted the Constitution, or one of the amendments if that is what is at issue.
As my old partner used to say, I am not buying a pig in a poke.
But you are asking others to do exactly that.
Suppose I'm about to become a citizen, and am aware of the oath I
will have to take. Now being a prudent person, I decide to read the Constitution beforehand, to make sure it's something I want to "support and defend." OK. I read it, I'm happy with it, and I take the oath.
Suddenly along come these "originalists" who explain to me that my reading was all wrong, that what matters is only what the drafters thought certain terms meant, a long time ago. "Oh, and by the way, we have a lot of arguments about that, and have no solid way of knowing."
You're telling me I'm bound by a document that is effectively written in a secret code.
Not an establishment of any national religion. But we need everybody's vibrant expression of faith, because it's such an important part of who we are as a nation.
Do we? Who decides that this is "an important part of who we are as a nation"?
The fact that the Constitution (apparently) requires special deference to putative claims of religious practice does not dictate to civil society whether religion is part of who we are as a nation. I have not been religious since my early teens, and I do not feel any less American for it, though I may feel slightly less privileged than Christians are to invoke the protection of the state when it comes to laws that constrain how I would prefer to live my life.
I am happy to acknowledge that, for many people, their religious faith and religious community provides them a sense of meaning and purpose that enriches their lives. That's great for them. But it is hard for me to have much respect for these people when their public life runs so contrary to what they profess to believe. Whatever they might do in private, among their family or their religious community, no Christian acting publicly as such has ever extended grace, charity, or forgiveness to me. The only things I have learned to expect from a Christian acting in public life is hate, disrespect, and rejection.
Perhaps that's what Mike Johnson really means, when he says that religion is "an important part of who we are as a nation." It certainly tracks with Republican and MAGA politics.
In my opinion the anti-establishment clause was prompted by a desire to avoid the possibility of religious civil war. The founders were well aware of British history in this regard.
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Where Johnson went wrong, though, was presenting those views as the only ones. Plenty of people at the time of the Framing thought that the Establishment Clause was there to protect Christianity from state corruption. But others thought that the Clause was meant to keep government free from religious bigotry and fanaticism, which had ruined European politics for centuries.
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Hi Mark,
I think both sides of the primordial arguments of the establishment clause you present is correct. To this day, maintaining this balance is also my worry. However, it doesn't immediately jump out at me why you think the Speaker's statements contradicts either side of this.
There is no excuse for not knowing this after the extensive research of Donald S Lutz. It was a restriction on Federal law and not a concession !! It protected full religious freedom to promote Christianity in the STATES .
We had 20 state constitutions before any Federal one.No excuse.
Would Johnson be offended if someone like Keith Ellison said a Salah (Muslim prayer) on the floor of the House? If not, I'd be convinced of his point.
Couldn't we wait until he actually displays that sort of hypocrisy to denounce him?
That was 1865 -- different country.
Where would be the fun in that ?
"define" and "provide evidence for" are different ideas.
It sometimes happens that the text is not entirely clear, and opinions differ as to what it means - or rather what it meant a long time ago. Opinions are advanced. But when honest folk - admittedly somewhat thin on the ground when it comes to politically contentious court cases - find it difficult to reach a verdict, on grounds of ambiguity, it's perfectly reasonable to advance evidence of how the provision was understood at the time it was promulgated, as evidence of its original public meaning.
That doesn't mean that the original historical practice defines the meaning of the text, it just means that in cases of genuine rather than pretended ambiguity, it may provide evidence for or against one of the suggested meanings.
The fact that the clause was never regarded as imposing a separation between church and state, from the word go, is evidence for the improbability of such an interpretation.
I'm not sure what "constitutional guarantee" you are referring to. The question is can the government forbid someone from praying, or forbid government funds for a chaplain.
As a matter of original intent, clearly no.
Nor has there ever been a right to not to have to be exposed to others in prayer. Whether it's Johnson or the chaplain.
What personal constitutional guarantee are you referring to?
But when honest folk – admittedly somewhat thin on the ground when it comes to politically contentious court cases – find it difficult to reach a verdict, on grounds of ambiguity, it’s perfectly reasonable to advance evidence of how the provision was understood at the time it was promulgated, as evidence of its original public meaning.
And if there was no universally accepted public meaning. The OP says,
Plenty of people at the time of the Framing thought that the Establishment Clause was there to protect Christianity from state corruption. But others thought that the Clause was meant to keep government free from religious bigotry and fanaticism, which had ruined European politics for centuries. Indeed, Madison's famous Memorial and Remonstrance, written during the Virginia Assessment Controversy of the 1780s, argued against a tax for the payment of clergy on the ground that such a tax was dangerous both for the church and the state. Presumably, Madison knew he had to appeal to both sides if he wanted to prevail (as he did).