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Jefferson Davis: President of the United States?
Five Responses to the Jefferson Davis Horrible
[This post is co-authored with Professor Seth Barrett Tillman].
On December 6, the Colorado Supreme Court heard oral argument in Griswold v. Anderson. In this case, a number of Colorado voters asked the Court to order the Colorado Secretary of State to remove Trump from the primary ballot. The trial court adopted our intellectual position: that the President is not an "Officer of the United States," and therefore, the President is not subject to Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. We did not file an amicus brief with the trial court. The trial court's decision was appealed directly to the Colorado Supreme Court, and we did file an amicus brief before that court. Our brief argued that Section 3 requires federal enforcement legislation, and that the President is not an "Officer of the United States" as that phrase is used in the Constitution of 1788 and Section 3.
In an earlier post, we analyzed several aspects of oral argument with regard to whether the president is covered by Section 3—that is, "Is the president an 'Officer of the United States'?" as that phrase is used in Section 3's triggering or jurisdictional clause. But we did not discuss the disqualification element of Section 3. Those who are disqualified by Section 3 cannot hold certain positions: "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State." Is the presidency an "Office . . . under the United States" for purposes of Section 3's disqualification clause? Much to the consternation of our critics, we have not taken a firm position on this question. We have explained our reasoning in two articles now, but the critics are still unsatisfied. So be it. And this position is not new. We explained in a recent amicus brief from Michigan that "Since 2011, [Tillman] has expressly eschewed opining on the scope of Section 3's 'Office . . . under the United States'-language." And we don't plan to do so in this post.
But in this post, we will discuss several aspects of oral argument with regard to the phrase "Office . . . under the United States." Specifically, we will address the Jefferson Davis Horrible.
The Jefferson Davis Horrible
It is straightforward enough to argue that the presidency, as an abstract matter, is not covered by Section 3. But the optics of the argument change when talking about a particular person becoming president: Jefferson Davis. How could it be that the Fourteenth Amendment would have allowed Jefferson Davis to become President?
We refer to this position as the Jefferson Davis Horrible. This description calls back to a prominent Supreme Court case from the not-too-distant past. The defining imagery of the Affordable Care Act litigation was a green vegetable: "Could Congress force people to purchase broccoli?" Indeed, Blackman considered putting a stalk of broccoli on the cover of his book about NFIB v. Sebelius, but (wisely) abandoned that choice. The so-called broccoli horrible was effective because the Solicitor General could not draw a meaningful limiting principle: if the federal government can make you buy health insurance, why can't it make you buy broccoli? Of course, the real answer is that Congress would never make anyone buy broccoli. It was such a far-fetched hypothetical because it appealed to the basest sense of what people see as right and wrong—and disgust with green vegetables.
Professor Gerard Magliocca and others have found some newspaper articles that make the point, in various fashions, that Jefferson Davis should not be allowed to be elected as President of the United States. We can get the easy part out of the way. Jefferson Davis had served as a cabinet official, and in Congress, so he clearly held a Section-3 covered triggering or jurisdictional position, including as an "officer of the United States," and he took an Article VI oath. The only question, then, is whether the President is an "Office . . . under the United States." None of these sources actually say that Davis, if elected as President, would hold an "Office . . . under the United States." Rather, we are asked to draw an inference: because people in that era did not think Jefferson Davis should become president, those same people thought that the presidency is an "Office . . . under the United States." We do not know if any of these newspaper writers considered or were even aware of the precise text of Section 3. To our knowledge, none of these sources attempt to parse the text. At most, they rely on a gestalt: generally, Section 3 was designed to keep confederates out of office, and Jefferson Davis was a leading confederate. This is certainly an argument that newspaper writers can make, but it is not one grounded in the precise text that the Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment drafted and the states ratified.
Still, the Davis hypothetical leads to a predictable response: any reading of Section 3 that could lead to a President Jefferson Davis must be wrong. We think there are five possible responses to the Jefferson Davis Horrible. We don't specifically embrace these responses, in whole or in part. Moreover, we do not see any pressing need to address this question because whatever its answer, in the context of current Section-3 Trump-related cases, former President Trump never held any jurisdictional or triggering office—he never held a position that can be fairly characterized as an "officer of the United States" as that phrase was used in Section 3 and in the Constitution of 1788. As such, Trump cannot be excluded from the ballot based on Section 3. Nevertheless, others may disagree with our position on the scope of Section 3's "officer of the United States"-language and the Colorado Supreme Court asked questions related to Section 3's "office . . . under the United States"-language. For those reasons, below, we put forward some possible answers to the court's questions.
Response #1: Original Meaning, Not Original Intentions
As a matter of original public meaning, the presidency is either an "office . . . under the United States" or it is not. That question would not turn on the identity of any particular presidential candidate.
By contrast, the Jefferson Davis Horrible is premised on some other modality. We can call it original intentions: "Did the Framers intend to exclude the presidency from Section 3's list of disqualified positions?" We might also call it original expected applications: "Would the Framers have expected someone like Jefferson Davis to be excluded from Section 3's list of disqualified positions?" Perhaps Professors Baude, Campbell, and Sachs might call it the General Law Theory of Section 3: that is, there is some unwritten law or background principles under which the presidency is obviously covered by Section 3.
We favor original public meaning originalism. It is the meaning of the ratified text which controls, and not speculations about intentions. Justice Scalia pithily stated this approach in A Matter of Interpretation: "What I look for in the Constitution is precisely what I look for in a statute: the original meaning of the text, not what the original draftsmen intended."
If Justice Scalia's approach controls, then the Jefferson Davis Horrible is irrelevant: if the presidency is not an "Office . . . under the United States," then Jefferson Davis could have become President. We recognize this argument may be unsatisfying to some. Indeed, some prominent originalists, including Professors Baude and Paulsen, have quickly jumped ship. When the going gets tough, they quickly succumb to original intentions or original expected applications, as a result, they avoid the Jefferson Davis Horrible. By contrast, non-originalists like Professor Graber have no difficulty accepting this argument based on the intentions of those who framed the Fourteenth Amendment. By contrast, our position was and remains original public meaning originalism. Still, we recognize that Judges who may not strictly adhere to Justice Scalia's methodology are more attuned to factors beyond the original meaning of the text.
Response #2: The Framers and Ratifiers of the Fourteenth Amendment were not worried about Jefferson Davis Becoming President
The Jefferson Davis Horrible resembles the broccoli horrible in one important regard. Jefferson Davis was never going to be elected President of the United States. It was not going to happen. The notion that northern states and reconstructed southern states would send Davis to the White House is about as far-fetched as Congress imposing a broccoli mandate. Professor Lash makes this point in his amicus brief:
No Reconstruction Republican was concerned about the country electing Jefferson Davis President of the United States, much less believed the Constitution must be amended to prevent such a possibility. The very idea was no more than a punchline to a joke. Tiffin Tribune, Ohio, Speech of Hon. John A. Bingham, July 18, 1872 (Joke about "President" Davis eliciting "laughter").
Those who framed the Fourteenth Amendment were worried about a lot of things. As we see it, it has not been established that Jefferson Davis' becoming President was a matter of concern.
Indeed, even absent Section 3, there was reason to believe that Davis was not eligible to become President. Davis, by becoming head of government of a "foreign" state, and then making war upon the United States through instrumentalities of that pretended government, arguably voluntarily relinquished his U.S. citizenship. And with that relinquishment, he also lost any claims to the protection of the United States government while abroad, as well as his Article II eligibility to the presidency. See 3 John Bassett Moore, A Digest of International Law § 434 (1906) (quoting Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson, in 1793, as supporting the position that voluntary expatriation is lawful); id. § 440 (quoting Secretary of State Bayard, in 1887, as supporting the position that voluntary expatriation is lawful), <https://tinyurl.com/mu424w4y>; see also, e.g., Loss of U.S. Nationality and Dual Nationality, U.S. Department of State—Bureau of Consular Affairs, <https://tinyurl.com/yeucy43n>; id., Advice About Possible Loss of U.S. Nationality and Seeking Public Office in a Foreign State (Mar. 12, 2019), <https://tinyurl.com/55p39rs9>. See generally, e.g., Robert Penn Warren, Jefferson Davis Gets His Citizenship Back (1980).
Response #3: Section 3 disqualified rebel presidential electors, which would prevent a rebel president
Professor Kurt Lash addresses the Jefferson Davis Horrible in two steps. First, he cites a proposed version of Section 3 drafted by Representative Theodore McKee that would have expressly disqualified rebels from the presidency. Second, the ratified version bars disqualified individuals from serving as presidential electors. Therefore, loyal electors would not elect a rebel President like Jefferson Davis.
Some critics have pointed out that certain people who were loyal to the confederacy were still eligible to be electors if they had not held a Section-3 listed triggering or jurisdictional position. During oral argument before the Colorado Supreme Court, Justice Gabriel asked, "Do you really think the Framers took a whole lot of comfort in the fact that the electors are going to protect us from an insurrectionist like a Jefferson Davis?" And Justice Hart asked, "if everyone chose an insurrectionist, Jefferson Davis . . . [and] the electors who were not themselves insurrectionists, chose to put him into the presidency, that would be fine under Section Three, and that would be consistent with the purposes of Section Three?"
Another related factor is that state legislatures retained the power to simply direct the electors to vote for a particular presidential candidate. Moreover, Section 3 does not expressly bar either former rebels or, even, Section-3 disqualified persons from serving in state legislatures! What this shows is that state legislative service, and by implication service in the presidency, was not the focus of attention of those who supported passage of the final version of the Fourteenth Amendment and those who ratified it.
With hindsight, we know that no former confederate was elected to the presidency—by rebel or rebel-supporting voters, by rebel electors, or by rebel state houses. Indeed, as history reveals, a Southerner was not elected President for about a century! But hindsight is always 20/20. And this retrospective argument may not account for what was anticipated in 1868.
We think Professor Lash has articulated a rational basis to explain the fact that the President is not expressly mentioned in Section 3. Whether Lash's position is or is not deemed ultimately correct, we leave for him and others to decide.
Response #4: Section 3 was a compromise that did not accomplish everything the Radical Republicans wanted
The drafting history of Section 3 is complex. There were two primary approaches for dealing with former confederates. The Radical Republicans favored disenfranchising those who had engaged in insurrection. The more moderate members of Congress favored not stripping the franchise from former confederates, but would have disqualified certain insurrectionists, i.e., those who had taken oaths to support the U.S. Constitution in connection with their holding certain positions, from holding other positions. The list of positions triggering Section 3 disqualification was not identical to the list of positions from which such a person was disqualified. It is unfortunate that some litigants, as well as scholars, quote from the drafting history of Section 3, without indicating whether the discussion concerned the earlier disenfranchisement-related version or the subsequent (and ratified) disqualification-related version of Section 3. It is sometimes difficult to disentangle the two threads.
What we do know is that the Radical Republicans did not get everything they wanted. Instead, the more moderate disqualification provision was ultimately adopted. And Section 3 was, in every sense, a compromise. Section 3's triggering or jurisdictional clause did not apply to all people who had taken an oath to support the Constitution. Rather, Section 3's triggering or jurisdictional clause applied to a specific set of enumerated federal and state positions, including the "Officers of the United States." And disqualification did not extend to every position in the federal and state governments. Rather, those facing Section 3 liability were disqualified from holding a specific set of enumerated positions, including any "Office . . . under the United States." Both of these phrases were used in the Constitution of 1788. And the Framers of Section 3 made use of that language, which was already available to them. Such language would spur support for passage: it showed that those who put forward Section 3 were not radicals, but were intimately connected to 1788 and our enduring legal tradition. Such language illustrated continuity and authenticity. Perhaps the radicals would have liked to disqualify the waterfront of positions, but they were not in control. Indeed, nothing would have been simpler than choosing language that disqualified any person who had taken any oath to support the Constitution prescribed by any state or the federal government in connection with any public position, who participated in an insurrection or rebellion from holding any state or federal position. Nothing like that ambitious language was used. And now we are left to figure out the contours of the actual compromise that was agreed to.
Response #5: Section 3, which was modeled after the Impeachment Disqualification Clause, does not disqualify a person from holding the presidency
During oral argument before the Colorado Supreme Court, Justice Márquez puzzled over why Section 3 would cover almost everyone, except the President. She asked, why would the Fourteenth Amendment "punish those who break the lesser oath, but exempt persons who break the arguably more serious oath to preserve, protect and defend?" She inquired, "What is the rationale for that type of exclusion?" Later, Justice Márquez observed that she "read a lot of briefing over the last couple of weeks," but "saw no rational reason for that type of an exclusion." She asked Trump's counsel, "Can you come up with a rational basis for excluding either the office of the presidency or someone who swore an oath as a president?" Relatedly, Justice Gabriel asked, "How is it not absurd to say, anybody who engaged in insurrection can't serve an office . . . except the President or former president or vice president or former president? How is that not absurd?"
There is a straightforward rationale why the Framers did not include the president among the list of triggering or jurisdictional positions giving rise to disqualification—that is, the President is not an "Officer of the United States." We make this point in our amicus brief:
As the District Court acknowledged, President Trump was "the first President of the United States who had not previously taken an oath of office." Dist.Ct. at ¶313 n.20. All prior Presidents had taken some other oath. There would have been no reason for those who framed and ratified the Fourteenth Amendment to discuss a person who (1) was elected as President, (2) but had never before taken any other constitutional oath, (3) and then engaged in insurrection, (4) and then sought re-election.
The Framers were not omniscient, and they had no reason to consider this very particular train of events.
What would be the rationale for why the Framers did not include the presidency among the list of disqualified positions—that is, the President is not an "Office . . . under the United States"? We think this question is more difficult, as the Framers could have conceived that a former rebel could run for President. Even if the Jefferson Davis Horrible was more of a punchline than a legal argument, members of the Colorado Supreme Court still had a valid basis to ask for a rationale of why the presidency would not be considered an "Office . . . . under the United States."
Here we propose a response that is premised on the Constitution's Impeachment Disqualification Clause. It provides, that "[j]udgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States." (We discuss this provision in Part IV of our series.) And there is a rational explanation why the President would not be included in this language. The President is the only figure elected nationwide. Many components must concur for that one position: the state legislatures, the electoral college, the joint session of Congress, and so on, to say nothing of local officials who enforce election law. In order for a person to become President, those elements must coalesce around a candidate. Indeed, the notion that Congress could impose a permanent disability on who can run for President more closely resembles a parliamentary government, in which members of parliament select a prime minister.
During the Trump impeachments, we argued that if Trump was disqualified—which only requires a simple Senate majority vote (albeit, after an impeachment conviction vote by ⅔)—he would only be barred from holding an appointed position, but could serve as President again. And there is some historical evidence to support our position from the Blount and Belknap impeachment trials. But beyond that historical evidence, there is a broader point: a fleeting simple majority in the Senate should not be able to perpetually disqualify the people from voting for the President of their choice. The question of what is an impeachable offense, to say nothing of what is an insurrection, will sometimes be vigorously contested. Those who support the President may see an impeachment trial as a partisan sham—a "witch hunt" in the parlance. And those who vote to impeach and convict may have ulterior motives for convicting. What is a "profile courage" for some may be a sell-out for others. Indeed, those who vote to disqualify may pay a political price from constituents who disagree with their decision. Honest disagreement about the legal and factual basis of a Senate impeachment conviction and disqualification is not limited to members of the Senate. The public may also have views rooted in high principle. We think the Johnson impeachment and his subsequent election to the U.S. Senate illustrate this dynamic—especially in light of his narrow acquittal in the Senate. To use the second Trump impeachment trial as an example, several members of the President's own party voted to impeach and convict him. Needless to say, those members no longer represent the mainstream views of their party—some of those members have decided not to run for reelection or were defeated in primaries. And despite everything that happened over the last four years, Trump is still the leading candidate for the Republican ticket, and he is leading in some polls for the presidency itself.
We realize our understanding of the Impeachment Disqualification may be unsettling to some. But the events of the last few years demonstrate the difficulty of having government officials—including courts—decide who can run for President.
The language of the disqualification element of Section 3 tracks the language of the Impeachment Disqualification Clause. Both provisions prohibit a person from holding an "Office . . . under the United States." In the NYU Journal of Law & Liberty, we explained that "it is reasonable to infer that the Framers of Section 3's disqualification element may have relied on" the Impeachment Disqualification Clause "that barred certain officials from holding certain positions." We cannot be certain that members who proposed Section 3 in 1866 consciously relied on the coordinate language in the Impeachment Disqualification Clause. It is not unreasonable to think that they did. In 1788, the Impeachment Disqualification Clause barred an impeached former officeholder from holding appointed positions in all three branches of the federal government. Such a person was not banned from service in state government—including positions such as member of a state legislature, which could ratify proposed amendments to the U.S. Constitution, and governor, who, in the event of a vacancy, could make temporary appointments to the U.S. Senate. Indeed, a person disqualified by the Senate was still eligible to be elected to the House and Senate. Senator Matthew Carpenter explained that the purpose of the Impeachment Disqualification Clause was to make Senate removal by impeachment effective. Absent disqualification, after the Senate removed an officer, the President could re-appoint that person to the same office or appoint that person to a different office. The purpose of the clause was to block appointments after disqualification, not to block a subsequent election. If Senator Carpenter's explanation for the purpose of the clause is correct, then that supports the inference that the clause's "office . . . under the United States"-language does not cover the presidency. (For those who are curious, Senator Carpenter was a prominent Supreme Court advocate, who litigated Ex parte Garland, Ex parte McCardle, the Slaughter-House Cases, and Bradwell v. Illinois.)
Where does that leave our analysis? If the phrase "Office . . . under the United States" in the Impeachment Disqualification Clause" did not extend to the presidency, it could be reasonably argued that the phrase "Office . . . under the United States" in Section 3 did not extend to the presidency. We stop short of fully embracing this argument—no doubt to the continued consternation of our critics—precisely because of the possibility of linguistic drift with regard to the phrase "Office . . . under the United States" between 1788 and 1868. But the broad text- and history-based response outlined above does provide one possible explanation (even if not a full-fledged rationale) to the questions posed by members of the Colorado Supreme Court.
If there is a clear constitutional limitation on who can run for office—age, residency, citizenship, and so on—those limitations should be vigorously enforced. But where the limitation is ambiguous, or where there is some good evidence the limitation does not apply, we should let the democratic process operate.
***
It is likely that our responses will not address all facets of the Jefferson Davis Horrible. But they suffice to surmount any argument premised on the absurdity doctrine. Scalia and Garner tell us, "[t]he absurdity must consist of a disposition that no reasonable person could intend." Something that "may seem odd . . . is not absurd." The positions articulated above are reasonable ones. (We discuss the absurdity doctrine in Part V.H of our article in the Texas Review of Law & Politics.) It is telling that the challengers never actually invoke the literature on absurdity; they simply conclude a position is absurd and work backwards to explain why. And such is the story of our past decade. For far too many, even among purported originalists, the usual rules about textualism and originalism go out the window because some conclusions are viewed as unpalatable to those who absolutely know what the Constitution really means. The Jefferson Davis Horrible has some purchase, but it is not the dispositive argument that many claim it to be.
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Scalia was a hypocrite: “”What I look for in the Constitution is precisely what I look for in a statute: the original meaning of the text, not what the original draftsmen intended.” Bullshit. He quotes from the Federalist papers as he deems appropriateto discern intention – and, to use my favourite instance, said that “cruel and unusual” should be judged by what was cruel and unusual in 1791, but he declined to follow the same principle wrt the definition of “arms” in 2A.
And for all Prof Blackman’s pilpul, the Constitution consistently and unambiguously refers to the Office of President. That fact that a position is an office makes its holder an officer. This was true in 1776, 1787, 1791 and 2023.
Are you feeling better now that you got that out?
No; he quoted from the Federalist Papers to discern what people understood the Constitution to mean while it was being ratification.
As for your c&u/arms argument, those aren't actually consistent positions. You're confusing an attempt to change what the term meant with an attempt to apply it to a new situation. His argument was that the death penalty wasn't deemed c&u then, so it isn't c&u now; to hold otherwise would be to change its meaning. But if a new type of punishment arose — let's say, electric shocks to prisoners' genitals — that could still be c&u even though it wasn't known in the 18th century and therefore they had no specific opinion on it. We would ask whether that was the sort of thing they considered c&u back then. The answer is almost certainly yes; they might not have known about that particular torture method, but they knew what was torture.
Similarly, for arms the question isn't whether a particular weapon existed in the 18th century; it's whether that's the sort of thing that would've been deemed an arm. Sometimes the answer is likely yes — assault rifles — and sometimes it's likely no — nukes, for instance.
No; he quoted from the Federalist Papers to discern what people understood the Constitution to mean while it was being ratification.
Nieporent, leave aside the cockamamie implication that Hamilton, Madison, or Jay accurately channeled their readers. It was impossible to do that at the time, and remains impossible now, even with better regional insights available to historians retrospectively than the founders could have had at the time.
What those better insights demonstrate is that there was no unified public understanding across the nation of what arms bearing meant in local context. There were only contradictory regional understandings. The public understanding of the meaning of bearing arms acceptable in the South created a threat to thwart ratification if offered to New England. The converse was equally true.
That the founders apparently did understand. It is a premise adequate to explain what events seem to imply—that the founders knew they could not arrive at national consensus on private arms, and thus needed to leave to states a power to decide locally and variously whatever interpretations suited each region’s own citizens.
Hence the founders’ narrow focus on the militia purpose. It was the one aspect of public arms which Americans shared broadly across the entire nation, although favoring that purpose on the basis of public understandings actually at odds among the regions. State ratifications motivated by contradictory reasons were nevertheless useful in the aggregate to enable national ratification. That left undisturbed whatever state powers would be needed to sort out local differences.
Scalia’s Heller decision shows no insight into any of that. He was competent to interpret on the basis of his insight into present context—the only context of which he was aware—what understandings his present purpose required him to attribute to founding-era readers. That he was happy to do, and to apply that flawed reasoning uniformly to the entire founding-era nation, despite their actual disagreements.
Scalia showed by his analysis that he knew nothing at all about any technique useful to infer founding era documents’ contextual meaning at the time of their creation. Scalia’s analysis proves he did not even suspect that was possible, or know that it was something a legitimate historical interpretation required of its interpreter. For that reason, Scalia’s Heller decision stands now as a warning, not as any justification for originalism. It shows how to get history egregiously wrong by invoking it to accomplish a present-minded purpose.
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There are two potentially applicable definitions of channel that actually mean quite different things. One is a strawman and the other is wrong.
1. direct toward a particular end or object. "advertisers channel money into radio"
2. (of a person) serve as a medium for (a spirit). "she was channeling the spirit of Billie Holiday"
If you meant the second — which was my initial assumption — then it's a strawman. I was not saying that the Federalist Papers reflect the views of their readers. I was saying the first: that they guided — or created — the views of their readers.
As for the rest: suffice it to say that you're again pretending to be a historian — although when called on that, you'll defensively argue that you never claimed to be one.
Nieporent, I did not ever claim to be a historian. I am not defensive about that.
I have mentioned that I got professional-level training in historical methods, including graduate training. It is puzzling that you could read what I write here about methods of historical research without understanding my comments imply a context of professional training.
Your repeated assertions of, “pretense,” imply to me that you lack either the interest or the capability to understand points about the practice of history which I have explained to you clearly and repeatedly. Or perhaps they imply some defensiveness of your own, in response to information unwelcome because it inconveniences premises of your own you supposed were self-evident. Perhaps you do not welcome news you had not expected—that a lawyer competent to read a document written in English from a bygone era does not thereby qualify himself to say professionally what that document meant in context, at the time and place it was written.
Dude, David Nieporent has your number. Don't respond.
Commenter_XY, would that be a Dunning-Kruger number? Nieporent's ranks above yours. I can communicate with him in language which communicates almost nothing to you. Even Nieporent's evasions express comprehension. By contrast, I cannot recall a single reply from you which expresses anything but blank incomprehension. Or hostility. You do tend to respond with hostility to polite attempts to give you information.
Asssuming arguendo that your dubious conclusion are correct, that would make Scalia wrong. It wouldn't make him a hypocrite.
lathrop comment - "Scalia’s Heller decision shows no insight into any of that. He was competent to interpret on the basis of his insight into present context—the only context of which he was aware—what understandings his present purpose required him to attribute to founding-era readers. That he was happy to do, and to apply that flawed reasoning uniformly to the entire founding-era nation, despite their actual disagreements."
Lathrop - you keep harping on Scalia's bad historical analysis in Heller yet you ignore the fact that Stevens historical analysis in his Heller dissent was vastly worse.
Joe_dallas, you return repeatedly to that assertion about Stevens. I have not attempted to address it directly. If you had read and understood my comments on historical methods, you would have found tools already to understand why that assertion is mistaken.
But I fault myself for that lack of communication. My explanations have been repetitive, but necessarily brief and suggestive, instead of comprehensive and systematic. I think I have pretty well proved that I am not up to the task of compression necessary to communicate so much non-intuitive information to this audience in this forum.
I have tried with disappointing results to explain in a few paragraphs concepts that authors better qualified than I am have used entire books or lengthy essays to communicate to readers with professional interest in the subject. I have mentioned some of those authors' works.
Once again, the best of those might be Michael Oakeshott's extended essay, On History. In addition to fairly accessible points I have borrowed to put forward here, the subject matter in that work contains much that is abstruse, and hard to follow in the way that reading Kant can be hard to follow. It repays slow, attentive reading, with a good deal of re-reading. But if you want to understand why researching and writing history is necessarily far more demanding than merely reading and summarizing original documents willy-nilly, then I recommend Oakeshott. He offers insights I have seen nowhere else. You can order a copy of On History very inexpensively from Amazon.
Did you consider Justice Scalia a bigot, Mr. Nieporent? If so, did you object to Justice Scalia's bigotry?
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I agree — but note that the relevant date is actually 1868, because our concern is what the 14th amendment means by it.
And the question is not whether he's an officer OF the United States, but instead an officer under the United States.
And if that's an actual distinction, or whether the two terms were used interchangeably.
I prayed to Jesus for years for Scalia to go to heaven…ask and you shall receive!!
I'm doing the same for you, let me know if it works
Prayer circle!!
Response #6: Having Jefferson Davis as President of the United States would have been swell!
He was fine with burning the South to the ground…progressives are probably fans of his. 😉
Jefferson Davis was obviously a rebel. Even people then or now who might like what happened, think it should have succeeded, or whatever, would agree he was part of a true rebellion.
The same cannot be said of Trump. His rebellion status is completely mapped to political opposition to him, not disinterested theorizing.
This is why I keep saying of course he’s an officer. But he should not be kept off national ballots unless there is a national concesus he is a rebel. And most certainly not at the state by state choice of partisans where only one or two purple states eliminating him is all it will take — pot shot decision making on who gets to be president. We love democracy. Until we don’t.
And I would be happy to not vote for him a 3rd time, and he would be a disaster as president, not because his mouth and domestic politics range from irritating to distasteful to evil (he was largely fought to a standstill by normal, if intense, political fighting, including in some cases by his owb party when they were in power) but because we don’t need strong man dictator tanks redefining Europe.
Because people are focusing on the "officer of the United States" question, we have to assume Jefferson Davis Horrible was a possible, if unlikely, thing. It was not. He was transparently a rebel. Officer had nothing to do with it.
Why would a "national consensus" on the question be required? Does that derive from the text? Again, you make a good argument why section 3 should not have been ratified as worded. But not a good argument why it should not be enforced as written.
No, he had a legal rationale for what he did. War is politics by other means. Davis’ goal was to be back in America with slavery perpetuated…so a perpetuation of the status quo doesn’t sound too “rebellious”.
Whose tanks would you like to define Europe? Think about that.
"Define Europe"? do you need an Abrams to do that?
FWIW at least as a general matter I think Response 4 is correct.
There was compromise on some things that went into 14A. I'm not aware of any historical evidence that the radical Republicans wanted to include the Presidency in section 3, but decided to compromise and exclude that office. And apparently Tillman and Blackman weren't able to find or cite any evidence either.
I doubt it.
It doesn’t look to me like a compromise anyone would make.
“We want to bar the rebels from this list of positions.”
“Well, we think that’s a little broad. We’d like to trim the list”
“OK. We are willing to take the Presidency and Vice-Presidency off. How’s that?”
“Done.”
That makes no sense. Those who wanted a broad restriction are unlikely to take the top offices off the list. And those who wanted it looser would very probably want lower offices stricken, rather than POTUS and the VP.
There are a lot more of those, and as a practical matter they are more likely to be accessible by former rebels. As Josh himself says, Jefferson Davis wasn’t wasn’t going to the White House, but Confederate Colonel so-and-so might well be able to get elected to the House, if eligible.
Actually it's a completely rational choice. The basic idea is that if someone really won a presidential election, no court or election official would have the power or authority or legitimacy to deny them office. Which happens to be true (and is why all the 14A Section 3 litigation is basically onanistic).
I disagree.
You are right that if some rebel managed to get himself elected President no one would deny them the office.
But that's a wildly unlikely event. Much more likely is that a rebel could mount a successful campaign for Congress, and that's what I'd try to preserve were I sympathetic to the rebels.
Why wouldn't the same logic apply to all the offices we agree were included in Section 3? Isn't the whole point of putting something in the Constitution placing the action beyond the ability of the voting majority to negate?
Would an election official have the authority or legitimacy to deny appearance on the ballot to a Presidential candidate who was younger than 35 years old? Would a court have the authority or legitimacy to deny that person office, if they did win the election?
Yes.
As the Grad-jew-ate of a Pubic High Screw-el named after President Davis (His friends called him J.D.) that only this year changed it's name to "Johnson Abernathy Graetz" (don't remember who he was? race-ist! No, it's named after 3 different peoples)
My opinion on President Davis may be "Colored" (get it? "Colored") by my 11th grade History class. Teaching was that he and Lincoln were similar, born within a year of each other, both in Kentucky, and if Lincoln's family had moved South, and Davis's family moved North, both might have still been Presidents.
Funny thing is, when I went to JD, it was about 50% Afro-Amurican, now it's 98%, yay Intergration!!!!
Frank
Prof. Volokh and his fans got it. And they enjoyed it and thank you for it. It gave those deplorable clingers a bit of pleasure as they await replacement.
The only thing they would have changed is the addition of a vile racial slur.
This paragraph seems pretty straightforward to me.
Isn't there some legal principle that things have to be read simply? Why mention "or hold any office" in addition to listing the elected officials? That kind of redundancy always sets off alarm bells in my head.
Because they meant that you couldn't get a commission in the military, or become an ambassador, or get any other position that you might be appointed, rather than elected to.
And since it was an amendment to the federal constitution, it had to be made explicit that it applied to state positions, too, or else it by default wouldn't.
What I meant was, if "office ..." included the P, VP, S, and HR, why also list the P, VP, S, and HR? To my mind, the obvious answer is that they did not consider the P, VP, S, and HR to be "offices ...".
Yeah, and that’s a reasonable argument. The fact that they listed Presidential Electors but omitted the Presidency itself is pretty strong evidence that the Presidency is excluded, and enumerating those specific positions and not saying “any other office” is evidence that elected positions at the federal level were not considered “offices under”.
Honestly, I think the amendment was just badly drafted, and it’s hard to say what they really intended, except to immunize the Confiscation acts against judicial review.
.
You're begging the question. They didn't omit the presidency; they said "or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States."
That they specifically enumerated Senator, Representative, and Elector indicates that they didn't consider those to be offices. It cannot possibly show that other unmentioned things weren't offices.
To be clear, it says elector for President or Vice President, so it would only make clear they didn't consider electors to hold office (which makes sense since it's ad hoc and temporary). A stronger argument could be made that Senators and Representatives don't qualify as officers.
Really, it's just amazingly bad drafting to not specify the President and Vice President, if they meant to include them. And I have a hard time believing that they actively meant to not include them, and just accidentally forgot to ever come out and say it.
Or, so obvious they didn't think they needed to spend the quill and ink. Contracts weren't 90 typeset pages back then like they are now.
So obvious you'd omit four words?
No, I'm sorry, it's just badly drafted, period.
Kind of like how “state” in the 2A refers to “country”??
"State" always referred to country. That's why we're the "United States". Or the phrase "nation-state". I wouldn't be surprised if "United States" was the first such usage in English.
Great point! The 13 states were sovereign states and pursuant the 2A they were prohibited from infringing the RKBA upon ratification of the 2A…so why was McDonald necessary?? Such a head scratcher. 😉
Really? I don’t have a hard time imagining that the intent was to exclude traitorous scum who got a lot of Americans killed because they believed God wanted them to treat fellow human beings like chattel.
Like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, good one!
Well, they were long dead before the 14th, but great point otherwise
Whoops, missed that "elector of" bit. So much for that argument!
OR one could simply read "Officer of" and "Officer under" to both include the Office called the Presidency. That wouldn't break the Constitutional order.
But that's not how academic careers are made.
So instead, let's argue that the *more moderate* faction of the reconstruction Congress insisted on a poison pill preposition that meant 150 years later an insurrectionist who had taken the oath to defend the Constitution *merely* as the sitting president could avoid disqualification. That's the argument, correct?
Oath of office:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
I dunno - seems to me one executing an office is an officer. But then IANAL...
Don't interrupt the professors...they're on a roll.
"[t]he absurdity must consist of a disposition that no reasonable person could intend."
Welp, looks like there's something to be said of that.
First off, I'd vote for Jefferson Davis before I'd vote for Trump.
That said, don't these people believe in the democratic process? If the people want Trump, so be it and heaven help us.
Blackman and Tillman:
… Carpenter explained that the purpose of the … disqualification … was to make … [the] removal … effective. [Without the] disqualification … the President could RE-APPOINT that person to the SAME office.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/12/08/jefferson-davis-president-of-the-united-states/
Comment:
Correct.
Blackman and Tillman:
Or APPOINT that person to a DIFFERENT office.
Comment:
NOT correct.
Blackman and Tillman:
The purpose of [1.3.7a] was to block APPOINTMENTS after DISQUALIFICATION.
Comment:
NOT correct.
Matthew Carpenter (1876 / page 318 in volume 3 of Hind’s Precedents [quoted and linked below]):
… The SOLE object [purpose] … of impeachment … is REMOVAL from office. … The disqualification … was … put in [in 1.3.7a] for … making the … REMOVAL … effectual. … The President could not pardon the offender convicted and REMOVED [as stated in 2.2.1]. Yet IF he could REINSTATE [RE-APPOINT] him the next morning, [THEN] he would have substantially [the equivalent] … of [a] pardon. To PREVENT THIS [the re-appointment the next morning to the vacated appointed office] was the OBJECT [PURPOSE] of the disqualifying clause [in 1.3.7a] … where you … REMOVED an officer APPOINTED by the President, whom the President could REINSTATE [RE-APPOINT the next morning]. You … STOP THAT [the re-appointment the next morning to the vacated appointed office] by fixing disability [the disqualification in 1.3.7a] upon the [REMOVED APPOINTED] officer … [which] I take to have been the SOLE purpose of this [disqualification] clause [in 1.3.7a]. …
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-HPREC-HINDS-V3/pdf/GPO-HPREC-HINDS-V3.pdf#page=332
Comment:
As shown above, the SOLE purpose of the disqualification in 1.3.7a is to PREVENT a RE-APPOINTMENT of a REMOVED APPOINTED officer to the VACATED APPOINTED office. PERIOD.
According to Mr. Carpenter, the disqualification in 1.3.7a has NOTHING to do with any FUTURE office.
The prepositional phrase, TO removal from office and disqualification, in 1.3.7a grammatically allows ONLY a person who is removed from office to be disqualified, just as the prepositional phrase, TO indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, in 1.3.7b grammatically allows ONLY a person who is indicted, tried and judged to be punished.
Grammatically, in order for the last stated action to be separate from and independent of the first stated action or actions, the last action noun must have its own SEPARATE preposition (TO removal from office and TO disqualification / TO indictment, trial and judgment and TO punishment), which does NOT occur in the text either in 1.3.7a or in 1.3.7b.
Claiming that the prepositional phrase, TO removal from office and disqualification, in 1.3.7a allows a person who is NOT removed from office to be disqualified is the SAME as claiming that the prepositional phrase, TO indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, in 1.3.7b allows a person who is NOT indicted, tried and judged to be punished. Both of those two claims are grammatically FALSE.
In the prepositional phrase, TO removal from office and disqualification, in 1.3.7a, which grammatically allows ONLY a person who is removed from office to be disqualified, there is ONLY ONE office in view, which is the VACATED office.
The FALSE idea that the prepositional phrase, TO removal from office and disqualification, in 1.3.7a allows a person who is NOT removed from office to be disqualified to hold a FUTURE office is grammatically IMPOSSIBLE.
According to the text in 1.3.7b, only a person who is CONVICTED (by the Senate in the Senate impeachment trial in 1.3.7a, and who is therefore NO LONGER IN office, thanks to the removal from office and disqualification in 1.3.7a) shall be SUBJECT TO the criminal prosecution by the Law in 1.3.7b.
A person who is NOT CONVICTED (by the Senate in the Senate impeachment trial in 1.3.7a, and who is therefore STILL IN office) shall NOT b SUBJECT TO the criminal prosecution by the Law in 1.3.7b.
Thus, the removal from office in 1.3.7a PUTS the officer OUT of the office, so that he or she can be criminally prosecuted by the Law in 1.3.7b for the crime that Congress alleges to have occurred, and the disqualification in 1.3.7a KEEPS the removed officer OUT of the VACATED office UNTIL the criminal prosecution by the Law in 1.3.7b, so that he or she can be criminally prosecuted by the Law in 1.3.7b for the crime that Congress alleges to have occurred.
Since the prepositional phrase, TO removal from office and disqualification, in 1.3.7a grammatically allows ONLY a person who is removed from office to be disqualified, therefore the grammar of the text in 1.3.7a requires EVERY person who is impeached by the House and tried and convicted by the Senate to be REMOVED FROM OFFICE, just as the grammar of the text in 2.4.1 requires EVERY person who is impeached by the House and tried and convicted by the Senate to be REMOVED FROM OFFICE.
Therefore, ONLY a person who is IN office (removable) can be either impeached by the House or tried and convicted by the Senate.
In other words, the text in 1.3.7 (1.3.7a and 1.3.7b) and 2.4.1 means just what it plainly states, and the interpretation of the text in 1.3.7a by which some members of Congress have attempted to circumvent what the text in 1.3.7 (1.3.7a and 1.3.7b) and 2.4.1 plainly states is grammatically IMPOSSIBLE.
Therefore, when Senator Paul said on January 26, 2021, that a Senate impeachment trial of a FORMER officer was UN-Constitutional and NOT IN ORDER, because a FORMER office was NOT either the President or the Vice President or a civil officer of the United States in 2.4.1, he was RIGHT.
And when Senator Schumer said on January 26, 2021, that the prepositional phrase, TO removal from office and disqualification, in 1.3.7a allowed a person who was NOT removed from office to be disqualified to hold a FUTURE office, he was WRONG.
On February 9, 2021, 56 Senators INCORRECTLY voted that Senator Paul was wrong and that Senator Schumer was right and thus gave the 2021 Senate the dishonorable distinction of being the ONLY Senate in the history of the United States NOT to STOP a Senate impeachment trial of an officer who STOPPED being IN office AFTER being impeached by the House.
Prior to February 9, 2021, whenever an officer STOPPED being IN office AFTER being impeached by the House, the Senate ALWAYS correctly STOPPED the Senate impeachment trial (William Blount in 1799, Mark Delahay in 1873, George English in 1926 and Samuel Kent in 2009).
Likewise, prior to February 9, 2021, whenever an officer STOPPED being IN office BEFORE being impeached by the House, the members of the House ALWAYS correctly voted to STOP the House impeachment proceeding (Edward Durell in 1875 and Richard Nixon in 1974).
It is no accident that the ONLY time in the history of the United States that the members of the House did NOT vote to STOP a House impeachment proceeding when an officer STOPPED being IN office is ALSO the ONLY time in the history of the United States in which the presiding committee in the House REFUSED to allow the members of the House to vote on whether or not to STOP the House impeachment proceeding against an officer who STOPPED being IN office (William Belknap in 1876).
If the presiding committee in the House in 1876 had allowed the members of the House to vote on whether or not to STOP the House impeachment proceeding against the FORMER office (William Belknap) in 1876, then the SAME members of the House who voted to STOP the House impeachment proceeding against the FORMER officer (Edward Durell) in 1875 likewise would have voted to STOP the House impeachment proceeding against the FORMER officer (William Belknap) in 1876.
The presiding committee in the House in 1876 KNEW that, and therefore the presiding committee REFUSED to allow the members of the House to vote on whether or not to STOP the House impeachment proceeding against the FORMER officer (William Belknap) in 1876.
Instead, the presiding committee in the House in 1876 proceeded directly to the impeachment vote, in which the resolution to impeach the FORMER officer (William Belknap) was agreed to WITHOUT DIVISION, which means that a VOICE vote of the members of the House was conducted by the presiding committee in the House in 1876 WITHOUT a vote COUNT, in which all of the AYEs were shouted in unison, after which all of the NOs were shouted in unison, after which the presiding committee in the House in 1876 arbitrarily declared the AYEs to be louder, even if (or though) the NOs were actually louder.
Since the presiding committee in the House in 1876 REFUSED to allow the members of the House to vote NOT to continue the House impeachment proceeding against the FORMER officer (William Belknap) in 1876, therefore it is reasonable to conclude that the SAME presiding committee in the House in 1876 likewise REFUSED to allow the members of the House to vote NOT to impeach the FORMER officer (William Belknap) in 1876, and that the presiding committee consequently declared the AYEs to be louder, even if (or though) the NOs were actually louder.