The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Final Post on Moore v. United States
First, the government and the Wall Street Journal are trying to persuade the Supreme Court to decide this case extremely narrowly after very publicly calling into question the ownership by private homeowners and stockholders of the unrealized gains on their assets thus limiting the ability of owners to borrow against those gains. This is completely unfair because word that this case was pending in the Supreme Court caused those assets to be less highly valued than would otherwise be the case. Justice should be done to all the millions of homeowners and owners of small amounts of stock who never knew that the federal government claimed a power to tax unrealized capital gains or to impose a direct wealth tax. The Supreme Court owes 330,000,000 Americans a clear affirmation of their right not to have unrealized capital gains or wealth directly taxed.
Second, the Constitution requires the rule of apportionment for all "direct taxes" and not merely for "land taxes", which are a subset of the general term "direct tax." A direct tax is a tax that falls straight on an individual and not on a transaction. A wealth tax is such a tax. Taxes which fall on transactions include: tariffs, sales taxes, income taxes, inheritance taxes, gift taxes, and value added taxes. Transactional taxes are indirect and need only be uniform among the states.
Third, the best evidence that wealth taxes are direct taxes are Chief Justice John Marshall's statement to the Virginia Ratifying Convention and Chief Justice Oliver Ellsworth's statement to the Connecticut Ratifying Convention to that effect. Even Alexander Hamilton, himself, said in his brief for the United States in Hylton v. United States, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 171 (1796) that:
"The following are presumed to be the only direct taxes.
Capitation or poll taxes.
Taxes on lands and buildings.
General assessments, whether on the whole property of individuals, or on their whole real or personal estate; all else must of necessity be considered as indirect taxes."
In other words, even Alexander Hamilton himself said that wealth taxes were direct taxes in Hylton. Now to be fair, it is true that Hamilton sometimes said that direct taxes were only capitations or land taxes, but Hamilton was also the most nationalist member of the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention. He favored a President and a Senate that served for life; the abolition of the states; and the federal appointment of "territorial" governors. Alexander Hamilton was the most nationalist of the Framers at Philadelphia, and even he admitted that a wealth tax was a direct tax in his brief in Hylton v. United States.
In any event, the history of the Philadelphia Convention was deliberately kept secret so that the Constitution's meaning to the 13 State Ratifying Conventions would be the controlling original public meaning. What happened at Philadelphia was indicative ONLY of the original intent of Framers such as Justice Patterson. It was NOT indicative of the original public meaning of the phrase "direct tax" at all. Originalists long ago eschewed arguments from original intent in favor of arguments about the original public meaning of words. General constitutional language like "direct taxes", "commerce among the States", laws that are "necessary and proper", "freedom of speech and of the press", and "privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States" are always construed expansively because it is after all "a constitution, which we are expounding." Of necessity, "it lacks the prolixity of a legal code."
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
But the MRT isn’t a wealth tax. It’s a tax on the income of the corporation that hasn’t yet been taxed.
The problem with a property or wealth tax is that you can keep taxing the same wealth over and over. That’s not true of the MRT.
The weird thing about the MRT is that the tax isn’t being assessed against the recipient of the income. It’s being assessed against that entity’s owners. I agree that’s a little odd, but not unprecedented… it’s a little like paying tax on your dependents’ incomes. Anyway it doesn’t convert the tax into a tax on wealth or property, because the tax isn’t computed based on the value of the foreign corporation or the value of the shares. It’s based on the corporation’s income.
It’s also weird that the tax falls on historical income. But again… does that make it unconstitutional? Probably not.
So the Moores are paying a tax on someone else’s old income. It's unusual, but not the slippery slope that you’re worried about, because it’s not a wealth or property tax.
A tax on somebody else's old income might, by your reasoning, not be "that" slippery slope, but it certainly is "a" slippery slope. One we desperately need to stay off of.
In the normal nature of taxes, you know, or at least can know, of them before you incur them. They either bring with them the ability pay, (Realized income, for instance.) or at least the choice to avoid incurring them if you wouldn't be able to.
Your interpretation of this act lacks that. It's the ex post facto tax!
As you say, "The problem with a property or wealth tax is that you can keep taxing the same wealth over and over."
Does it help any if you can keep taxing the same income over and over, instead? Or instead can levy a tax on you for somebody else's income, that provides you no means to pay the tax?
All you do here is convert it from one evil to another.
I'd add that people seem to have lost track of the exact nature of t the corporation the Moores own a share in. By design, they will NEVER realize that income; It's an odd, by American standards anyway, charitable enterprise! The corporate plan is to always retain that income, the Moores will never have access to it.
Does it help any if you can keep taxing the same income over and over, instead?
Well, this case doesn't raise that question. I agree it's an interesting question. Could Congress retroactively raise the income tax rates from the years 2010 to 2020 and make everybody pay the difference on their 2023 returns? Probably.
Given the infinite ingenuity of despots, the Constitution couldn't actually anticipate every possible evil. That doesn't mean we have to tolerate evils that it didn't anticipate, it just means that the courts are unlikely to save us from them.
However, in this case the courts ought to be able to save us, by simply refusing to go along with the pretense that the 16th amendment authorized taxation of income you never actually had come in.
Brett’s comment – “A tax on somebody else’s old income might, by your reasoning, not be “that” slippery slope, but it certainly is “a” slippery slope. One we desperately need to stay off of.”
In granting cert by the SC – The question presented is: “Whether the Sixteenth Amendment authorizes Congress to tax unrealized sums without apportionment among the states.”
Brett – my take is the CA9 ‘s holding is so egregiously wrong, that the SC would normally simply overturn CA9, correctly apply precedents (which CA9 grossly distorted almost all the precedent).
However, SC framed the question to prevent Congress from imposing a tax on unrealized gains in future legislation. Your point on not going down that slippery slope are well founded.
Note the facts in the case are really about assigning income on a person the did not received the income ( well settled case law on assignment of income) and the 5 year retroactive tax. The prior court cases on retroactive application of income tax and estate and gift tax are not well reasoned fwiw
"It's a little odd"
Yes, it's very very odd to be forced to pay taxes on someone else's income. Perhaps we should require you to pay taxes on Warren Buffet's income?
It's an effective run-around the concept of no direct taxation, if you can just assert one person owes another entity's income taxes. You can get wonderful wealth taxes that way, in effect.
So that's actually an interesting question, because it calls into question what the "entity" is.
Could Congress simply declare that corporations, whether or not they actually hand net income to the owners, are effectively pass-throughs, such that shareholders would be taxed based on their shares of the profits? In theory, shareholders could demand that companies pay out 100% of profits in dividends every year. Why not treat corporate profits not handed over as reinvested dividends and tax the owners of the corporation instead?
I think you want corps to be able to retain profits. It's been a great year for AcmeCorp - the new widgets are selling like hotcakes, and at a nice margin. Even working three shifts, they can't keep up with demand. Solution - let's leave some of the profits in the bank and use them to build a new factory over the next couple of years. Oooops ... you can't do that, you have to distribute the profits. The public can just bid up prices on the limited widget supply, and people who can't afford those prices can do without.
It would actually be a very positive development if corporations were required to distribute profits, and issue more stock if they want to expand. One of the biggest barriers to ordinary people building investment income is the failure to distribute profits. Instead of being able to build up equity that generates an income stream, ordinary people are required to divest themselves of that equity to gain income.
I think you're talking about why corps tend to retain/reinvest profits, thus increasing the share price, rather than distributing dividends, which was more common in the past. And I think a lot of the reason for that is that long term capital gains are taxed favorably relative to ordinary dividends.
Tax considerations aside, I'm indifferent whether my $100 in stock generates $10 in profit and that is distributed as a dividend, or retained so as to increase the price of the stock to $110 and I sell $10 of the stock. Either path leaves me with $100 in stock and $10 in my pocket.
There is a difference, in that, if you derive income from dividends, you profit directly off the profitability of the company. It doesn't have to expand for you to profit.
If you derive income from selling off stocks after they have risen, your income is somewhat disconnected from that profitability, and can be driven by a lot of extrinsic factors: How much money is chasing the stock, for instance.
But the biggest issue is, I think: Do we really think retained profits are exclusively spent to increase the value of the company? I'm not so sure about that. I think often they end up just driving up the compensation of management, or diverted into causes they favor.
"Do we really think retained profits are exclusively spent to increase the value of the company? I’m not so sure about that. I think often they end up just driving up the compensation of management, or diverted into causes they favor."
The decision whether to install marble counters in the CEO's executive jet is made, and the money spent, before deciding whether to retain or distribute any surplus.
FWIW, there is a fair bit of empirical data on whether investing $100 in dividend stocks vs. regular stocks is the better option. Not surprisingly, there isn't much of a difference (because if there was, the market would adjust the relative prices). I think the balance is slightly against dividend stocks, because there are retirees who prefer dividend stocks and pay a slight premium for them.
Of course, the details of one's personal tax situation can make a difference for an individual if, for example, you keep withdrawals in the 0% LTCG brackets or not. It's like with tax exempt munis or t-bills or whatever - your brackets matter, your state tax rate matters, yadda, yadda. And, obviously, invest as you see fit - but I don't think 'dividend stocks give a better return' is supported by the data.
No it wouldn't.
Issuing new stock is an expensive way to raise capital, and it dilutes ownership of the existing shareholders.
If you want a stock that distributes its profits through a high dividend there are plenty to choose from, if you want a corporation that's focused on growth through reinvestment of income then there are a lot of those too.
Plus its a well known tax avoidance strategy to buy and hold companies that reinvest profits and so the investor gets the benefit of the income in growth instead not taxable dividends.
Reinvesting profits is such a fundamental element of capitalism that disallowing could have disastrous effects.
"Could Congress simply declare that corporations, whether or not they actually hand net income to the owners, are effectively pass-throughs"
It's an interesting concept. It would completely destroy current tax law, basically eliminating the concept of a C corporation as a reasonable structure. Might destroy the US economy as we know it as well.
So, take a company like Google (Alphabet). They had a substantial profit, which they paid corporate taxes on. But not a penny worth of dividends. Now, you're saying all their investors...or rather their American investors...also owe taxes on that profit. The US can't tax non-Americans* (*in general, there are select exemptions) But, none of them actually received any real income from Google. No dividends.
So, those (US) investors try to sell their stock to gain the funds to pay the taxes. But other US investors don't want to buy the stock...similar issues. But foreign investors are happy to. They don't need to pay US income taxes. So they buy the Google stock at a discount.
Other major companies are treated similarly. US investors are at a substantial tax disadvantage to foreign investors.
Randal
So many logic errors
It the foreign corporation’s foreign source income . The corporation doesn’t have US source income.
I never said it did. I find this argument superficially compelling... but nobody's arguing it but you. That leads me to conclude it's not actually compelling, or it would be an argument in the case.
Randal - everyone is arguing whether the foreign income is the Corporation's income or the Moore's income.
I am only explaining why it is not the Moore's income.
Its also worth noting how badly the CA9 bastardizes the holdings is several prior cases, Dougherty 60tc917, horst v Helvering 311 US 112. Misconstrues the holdings in Carlton 512 US 26 and Hemme 476 US 558.
CA9 is even worse distortion of Eisner v Macomber 252 US 189 where CA9 completed distorts the SC holding.
U.S. Supreme Court
Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920)
Eisner v. Macomber
No. 318
Argued April 16, 1919
Restored to docket for reargument May 19, 1919
Reargued October 17, 20, 1919
Decided March 8, 1920
252 U.S. 189
ERROR TO THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
Syllabus
Congress was not empowered by the Sixteenth Amendment to tax, as income of the stockholder, without apportionment, a stock dividend made lawfully and in good faith against profits accumulated by the corporation since March 1, 1913. P. 252 U. S. 201. Towne v. Eisner, 245 U. S. 418.
The Revenue Act of September 8, 1916, c. 463, 39 Stat. 756, plainly evinces the purpose of Congress to impose such taxes, and is to that extent in conflict with Art. I, § 2, cl. 3, and Art. I, § 9, cl. 4, of the Constitution. Pp. 252 U. S. 199, 252 U. S. 217.
These provisions of the Constitution necessarily limit the extension, by construction, of the Sixteenth Amendment. P. 252 U. S. 205.
What is or is not "income" within the meaning of the Amendment must be determined in each case according to truth and substance, without regard to form. P. 252 U. S. 206.
Income may be defined as the gain derived from capital, from labor, or from both combined, including profit gained through sale or conversion of capital. P. 252 U. S. 207.
Mere growth or increment of value in a capital investment is not income; income is essentially a gain or profit, in itself, of exchangeable value, proceeding from capital, severed from it, and derived or received by the taxpayer for his separate use, benefit, and disposal. Id.
Congress was not empowered by the Sixteenth Amendment to tax, as income of the stockholder, without apportionment, a stock dividend made lawfully and in good faith against profits accumulated by the corporation since March 1, 1913.
Huh? Taxing dividends is unconstitutional?
Bernard - the stock dividend were common during that time. One share of stock would be issued for x number of shares. The shareholders percentage ownership in the company would remain the same. The same as a stock split.
Section 305 Code Sec. 305. Distributions of stock and stock rights
(a) General rule
Except as otherwise provided in this section, gross income does not include the amount of any distribution of the stock of a corporation made by such corporation to its shareholders with respect to its stock.
(b) Exceptions
Subsection (a) shall not apply to a distribution by a corporation of its stock, and the distribution shall be treated as a distribution of property to which section 301 applies -
(1) Distributions in lieu of money
If the distribution is, at the election of any of the shareholders (whether exercised before or after the declaration thereof), payable either -
(A) in its stock, or
(B) in property.
Bernard - it was a stock dividend - not a cash dividend. equivalent to a stock split.
.
It's not a tax on the income of the corporation; the fact that the case is named Moore v. U.S. rather than KisanKraft Machine Tools Private Limited v. U.S. should be a clue to that. It's a tax on the Moores, measured by the income of the corporation. (Even the U.S. government wouldn't go so far as to levy an income tax on an Indian corporation that does no business in the United States.)
Its a backdoor attempt to collect an income tax on the earnings of a foreign corporation by assigning the income to the individual. The tax law is well settled in this area with substantial case law on assignment of income that the tax court opinions dealing with assignment of income have been TCM's for the last 20 or so years.
Arguing the semantics of “on”? Please. And incorrectly to boot.
It’s a tax assessed against the Moores, but it’s a tax on the corporation's income. The corporation’s income is what’s being taxed, and the burden of that tax falls to the Moores.
The corporation's income isn't being taxed. At most, the Moores' putative share of that income is being taxed.
And arguing about whether the tax is "on" the Moores or "assessed against" the Moores seems like far more of a semantic argument.
At most, the Moores’ putative share of that income is being taxed.
Right. The corporation's income is being taxed. It's a tax on that income. That's what I said from the very beginning.
Of course the Moores are only paying their share of the tax.
.
Yes, and you were wrong from the beginning and you're wrong now. The corporation made millions of dollars in income. Millions of dollars aren't being taxed. Only the amount the Moores supposedly made is.
And this tax is being paid by the Moores, not the corporation, which doesn't owe a penny.
I didn't say all the income is being taxed. Don't be ridiculous. You pay taxes on your income, but it's not all your income. There are deductions and exemptions and whatnot. You still say "I pay taxes on my income" because your income -- some of it -- is what's being taxed.
Here, the corporation's income -- some of it -- is what's being taxed, as you also said yourself.
It looks like Kavanaugh and Barrett agree with Randal.
Well, Steve-O, if you wanted to undermine readers’ confidence that your other legal arguments in favor of the Moores were worth crediting, you couldn’t have done a better job here. Really a shameful display of legal “reasoning.”
Simon
Read the CA9 opinion then compare and contrast the holdings in the prior court cases cited in the opinion. It takes a huge amount of distortions by CA9 of the prior SC precedents to reach the holding by CA9.
Dougherty 60tc917,
horst v Helvering 311 US 112.
Carlton 512 US 26
Hemme 476 US 558.
Eisner v Macomber 252 US 189
Money quote in Eisner -
Mere growth or increment of value in a capital investment is not income; income is essentially a gain or profit, in itself, of exchangeable value, proceeding from capital, severed from it, and derived or received by the taxpayer for his separate use, benefit, and disposal. Id
In his ruminations on original public meaning, Calabresi overlooks a problem with potential to invalidate entirely that basis of interpretation. There was no nationwide ratification of the Constitution, or of the amendments. It was done state by state. Based on the historical record, the original public meaning of the Militia Clause, for instance, varied considerably by state. That means a single standard useful to guide a modern judicial decision cannot be discerned from original public meanings which were various, and often at odds with each other.
Original intent is not similarly dubious. It at least can be attributed to events which happened at one time, in one place, with a known cast of historical actors. For that reason, original intent could at least sometimes provide a more practical standard for modern use—but the entire originalist enterprise remains suspect for a host of other reasons.
Note also, Calabresi invokes originalist insight with regard to direct taxation; he has not mentioned the effect to apply that concept at the time of ratification would have had. Any attempt to tax slaves as personal wealth would have required northern states to apportion part of the slave tax on their own non-slaveholding citizens. That is probably all you need to know to understand the otherwise mysterious subtleties of, "direct taxation." It was a measure to make it politically impossible to tax slaves. As usual with other compromises which empowered slave-keeping, the Philadelphia convention seems to have deemed it impolitic to say so forthrightly.
To summarize comments on previous posts, the MRT is a tax on a foreign corporation’s earnings, not its wealth, and hence is a kind of income tax, not a wealth tax. The relevant question is, can Congress treat a foreign corporation as a pass-through entity for tax purposes, ignoring the separate corporate personhood and treating its income as if it had been directly earned by its US shareholders?
It can. First, it does exactly this for domestic S corporations. And while Congress provided that this is done only if the shareholders consent, the definition of income under the 16th Amendment does not require consent. You in general do not have to agree to something being considered your income for it to be taxable. Congress’s power to declare something income, the definition of income under the 16th Amendment, does not depend on whether you agree with it or not.
Second, the entity involved is a foreign corporation. The Supreme Court said in Agency for International Development v. Alliance for Open Society that foreign corporations (indeed foreigners outside US territory generally) have no constitutional rights. This means that a foreign corporation has no right to have its separate corporate identity recognized or respected by Us law. After all, a core component of Roe v. Wade, not overruled by Dobbs, was that no constitutional rights is equivalent to no right ro have a claim of distinct personhood recognized. So even if it couldn’t for a domestic corporation, Congress is fully entitled to flat-out ignore the claim of separate corporate personhood of a foreign corporation. It is fully entitled to treat the foreign corporation as nothing more than the alter ego of its domestic shareholders, and to treat money invested in a foreign corporation as no different from money put in a bank account, remaining (together with associated earnings) fully the property of the invester.
ReaderY comment – “Second, the entity involved is a foreign corporation. The Supreme Court said in Agency for International Development v. Alliance for Open Society that foreign corporations (indeed foreigners outside US territory generally) have no constitutional rights. This means that a foreign corporation has no right to have its separate corporate identity recognized or respected by Us law.”
ReaderY Correct – The foreign entity has no US Constitution rights (or extremely limited when not operating in the US).
At the same time, the US has no jurisdiction and/or right to subject the corporation to US laws when not operating in the US.
The foreign corporation retains its legal status. US law can not change its legal status. You are spending too much time misconstruing US law to make your argument.
US law determines its legal status for US tax purposes. Of course it changes it. See my example of a fetus below.
ReaderY -
ReaderY 6 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"US law determines its legal status for US tax purposes. "
No - its a foreign corporation not doing business in the US.
US law simply doesnt apply for US tax purposes or for any other purpose.
International shenanigans are not invisible to US law. You can't just vanish a bunch of money overseas and then say “US law simply doesn’t apply.”
Randal - dont make the same mistake that ReaderY continues to make.
Its a foreign corporation which is not doing business in the US.
The US has zero jurisdiction over that foreign corporation. Congress can pass a zillion laws governing that foreign corporation - However, those can not be enforced because the US has zero jurisdiction.
Is that basic concept so difficult to understand ? maybe it is
The US can decide how it wants to treat that foreign corporation within the US.
Randal - My statement was "Its a foreign corporation which is not doing business in the US".
taxation of US source income is not an issue in this case
I will state my other comment was intended for ReaderY not you
.
The money was always overseas; it wasn't "vanished" there. This is income earned by a foreign corporation in foreign countries.
Well, $40,000 of the Moores' money "vanished" in India one way or another.
US residents are subject to US tax law. The US taxpayers involved, the only ones being taxed here, are US residents. Citizens.
US law is the ONLY law that applies for US tax purposes. Foreign law is relevant if and to the extent US law says so.
In particular, US law is determining the legal ownership of monies realized from the Moore’s investment as a matter of US tax law.
ReaderY You are grossly misconstruing whose law governs.
Its a well settled principle of US tax law that the applicable state law (or foreign law) governs when a taxable event occurs. In this case, under applicable Foreign law of India, a taxable event has not occurred since the Moore’s dont have a right to the Corp’s income under applicable India law.
One of the few exceptions to the requirement of a completed taxable event is when you have constructive receipt. That is not the case with the Moore's.
As I stated, US law doesnt apply in this case to override India law. US simply doesnt apply.
The Constitution assigns the power to determine tax law to Congress. Congress can change well settled principles of tax law any time it wants simply by passing a statute. It did exactly that here.
In construing the constitutionality of statutes, courts must give them a constitutional construction if possible. Assuming Congress disregarded foreign corporate forms makes the law constitutional. And separate corporate status is being disregarded only with respect to how the US taxes its own citizens. How the US federal government taxes its own citizens does not implicate foreign policy or the law of other nations, state law, the common law, or any other source of heightened presumption against implicit abrogation that courts employ.
For the last time - Its not the Moore's income
But that doesn’t matter. People can be taxed for their business's income. It happens all the time. People can even be taxed for other people’s income: spouses and dependents for example.
Randal 26 mins ago (edited)
Flag Comment Mute User
"But that doesn’t matter. People can be taxed for their business’s income. It happens all the time. People can even be taxed for other people’s income: spouses and dependents for example.."
Beginning to wonder if you arent ReaderY's alter ego
An individual is only tax on the spouses income if either A) it earned in a community property state or B) if the couple elect MFJ
You never include the dependents income on the return absent the parents election to include the childs income on the parents return.
The reporting of business income on the individual return is dependent on the legal structure of the business.
This is a case where the statute attempts to ignore the legal structure and the applicable state (country law) in determining whose income it is.
This is a case where the statute attempts to ignore the legal structure and the applicable state (country law) in determining whose income it is.
Just think about what a silly sentence that is.
Your side is going to lose the case, it was clear from the orals. Then what will you say I wonder. "Egregiously Wrong" most likely.
As I stated, US law doesnt apply in this case to override India law. US simply doesnt apply.
So by this argument, if I had an Indian bank account and India had a law that said money in bank accounts couldn't be taxed, I could avoid income taxes by depositing my paychecks there?
Again - I am beginning to wonder if you are not ReadeY's alter ego.
When there's one right answer, it shouldn't be a surprise that multiple truth-seekers gravitate towards it.
.
No, it doesn't.
Please check your tax law befor commenting. Thanks.
ReaderY
Your comments are beyond inane
The is absolutely zero laws that allows the US to impose an income tax on a foreign corporation that does no have US source income .
The MRT does not impose a tax on any foreign corporation. It imposes a tax solely on US citizens, on their own income, income they earn from their own investments, investments and income that they happen to be parking for the moment in overseas accounts. How foreign law happens to classify those accounts is irrelevant to US tax law.
ReaderY
Its an assignment of income
Final response - this topic is beyond your capacity to understand
.
Taxpayers must choose to have their income treated as pass-through income via an S-corp. The government doesn't just unilaterally do it.
Yes. And July 4th is a FEDERAL HOLIDAY. But Congress need merely pass a law and July 4th wouldn’t be a federal holiday, your use of emphasis fonts notwithstanding.
The only reason taxpayers get a choice is because Congress said so. S corporations, and the existence of a choice, are pure creatures of statute. Congress happens to have decided to give taxpayers a choice in this particular instance. But its decision to let taxpayers decide in this instance has nothing to do with the definition of income, or its general power to tax income, under the 16th Amendment. If Congress can constitutionally attribute a corporation’s income to its shareholders for 16th Amendment purposes when the shareholders want it that way, that same 16th Amendment gives it the power to do the same thing when the shareholders don’t want it that way.
So far as the 16th Amendment is concerned, if S Corporations are constitutional at all, then Congress can tomorrow remove the choice, abolish C corporations, and declare that all corporations will be taxed the way S corporations are.
Even if other constitutional provisions might interfere with such a law where domestic corporations are concerned, they pose no obstacle with respect to Congress’ choices about how to tax income of foreign corporations.
That is, quoting the present terms of a statute simply isn’t an argument that Congress can’t change the law. That Congress decided things one way just isn’t a valid argument that it lacks the constitutional power to decide things dsifferently. The constitutionality of S Corporations establishes that Congress has the constitutional power to use a pass-through approach. It can simply remove the choice feature if it wants to. It did so here. Its constitutional power to tax, the constitutional definition of income, doesn’t depend on the choice feature in any way.
.
And your ipse dixit just isn't a valid argument to the contrary.
.
Look up "begging the question" in the dictionary. The very issue to be decided is whether Congress can say otherwise.
Sorry DMN, your (asinine, sorry but it's true) point was raised at oral argument and shot down pretty harshly by General Prelogar with no one coming to its defense.
“Congress is fully entitled to flat-out ignore the claim of separate corporate personhood of a foreign corporation.”
Perhaps as a constitutional matter, but we have hundreds of treaties that say different including one with India.
I don’t think we want that principle applied to US corporations by the rest of the world either.
You seem to be so invested in this one case that you are ready to throw out our entire system of international trade and commerce.
What treaty with India says anything about how the US can tax its own citizens? Please identify a single one.
Surely you can imagine that a treaty that requires the US to accord equal treatment to Indian corporations vis a vis US corporations would prohibit a different tax treatment for owners of an Indian corporation versus tax treatment for shareholders of a US corporation, except as allowed by the treaty.
But of course that is a separate issue, what you said was: “This means that a foreign corporation has no right to have its separate corporate identity recognized or respected by Us law.”
Which of course is absurd, try to give blanket statements like this, that defy common sense, and obviously standard practice too, a little thought before posting them.
Oh and yes, the treaty does say how the US can tax its citizens who are shareholders of an Indian Corporation, Article 10 US India Tax Treaty:
" Dividends paid by a company which is a resident of a Contracting State to a resident of the other
Contracting State may be taxed in that other State."
Suppose Mrs. Moore was pregnant. Suppose a conservative foreign country had a law permitting her to transfer assets to her fetus and considering the fetus to be the owner of the assets and the recipient of any investment income from them.
Would Congress be required to recognize the fetus’ separate personhood for tax purposes? Would investment income allocated to the fetus under the law of the foreign country constitute “unrealized sums?” Would the United States be prohibited from attributing it to the adult Moores as their income? If it did so, would it constitute a direct tax prohibited without an enumeration?
I see no difference, no difference whatsoever, between the fetus case and this case. No constitutional personhood means Congress can simply ignore claims of being a separate entity for tax purposes.
The law is not on the side of the plaintiffs, and the facts are very clearly not (otherwise why would their attorneys include so many factual misrepresentations in their filings?)
But that doesn't seem to matter to this supreme court. We can only hope that their ruling is narrow, otherwise the entire US tax system could be thrown into a tizzy. Roberts will most likely recognize the chaos that a broad ruling would bring and argue for a narrow ruling; it's not clear whether the other conservative justices will either recognize or care.
Clem the government claim that a win for the Moore’s would throw our tax system into chaos is a pure tactic to scare the court in to making a unsound constitutional ruling
All a ruling for the Moore’s will do prevent the government from assigning income, prevent the income taxation of unrealized gains and hopefully overrule some bad precedent on retroactive tax laws. The first two are restoring tax to what has been the law since 1913
Preventing the government from assigning income -- the way you define it -- would "throw our tax system into chaos."
yes I am replying to ReaderY’s alter ego.
read up on the concept of assignment of income
Read the CA9 opinion
Read the case law that CA9 cites.
Then get back to me
.
We'll see.
What does the dot do? You seem very into them suddenly.
Could the proceeds of a loan backed by appreciated assets be considered income? It's a realization of sorts.
Why jump through hoops like that, or try to determine whether assets, which may be privately held have appreciated?
Transaction taxes are perfectly legal, simply put a transaction on loan proceeds that are secured by securities whether publicly traded or not. Then there is no worry about accounting for large unexpected market corrections. And you can be sure the bank is going to be careful in accounting for its collateral, otherwise they may not be able to collect if the loan goes into default.
I’m not looking for a way to do this, I’m looking for a way to prevent it. This case seems to offer a fine path for government to tax loans on appreciated assets.
Also, one-time taxes based on value of property are still a tax on property.
From the oral argument, not only did almost every justice accept the argument that what was involved was income, the Solicitor General conceded that a wealth tax would have to be apportioned. Further, almost every justice accepted that a closely held foreign corporation’s income could be fairly attributed to its major (10%) shareholders under either a theory of 5th Amendment Due Process or a theory of 16th Amendment constructive realization. The argument I had made for a narrow ruling sidestepping the Due Process issue, that because a foreign corporation lacks both independent-personhood and due process rights, Congress can apply a pass-through approach to taxation regardless of major shareholder status or other fairness factors, did not come up.
The ruling will be 8:1 (Alito) against Calabresi.
Gorsuch will come along reluctantly, filing a concurrence about the narrowness and precedent-affirming nature of the decision.
The dumb dissent will be a typical Alito doomsday political screed about how Congress is gonna come for our life savings next.