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The Amar Brief in Moore Should Not Be Embraced: Part 2
Oral Argument in Moore v. United States will be held on Tuesday. Must taxes on unrealized gains (crucial for a future wealth tax) be apportioned equally among the states?
In an earlier post on the Volokh Conspiracy, I described Professors Akhil Reed Amar's and Vikram David Amar's disagreement with an amicus brief that former Attorney General Edwin Meese III, Professor Gary Lawson, and I filed in Moore v. United States. An issue in that case is whether a wealth tax is a "direct tax", which has to be apportioned among the states according to their respective populations. The Amar brothers claim that the only things that are direct taxes are capitation (head) taxes and land taxes. They say falsely that on their side they have George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, the three Supreme Court justices who wrote opinions in the 1796 case, Hylton v. United States, 3 U.S. 171, Abraham Lincoln, and Chief Justice John Roberts. I completely and totally disagree.
First, all that George Washington did or said that is relevant to this case is that he asked Alexander Hamilton to defend in the Supreme Court a federal tax statute that said it imposed a duty, which is an indirect tax, on the use of carriages, which in the 1790's were luxury goods subject to duties in England and Massachusetts. Washington expressed no opinion whatsoever on the line between direct and indirect taxes.
Second, Alexander Hamilton himself said in his brief for the United States in Hylton v. United States, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 171 (1796) that:
"The following are presumed to be the only direct taxes.
Capitation or poll taxes.
Taxes on lands and buildings.
General assessments, whether on the whole property of individuals, or on their whole real or personal estate; all else must of necessity be considered as indirect taxes."
In other words, Alexander Hamilton himself said that wealth taxes were direct taxes in Hylton. Now to be fair to the Amar brothers, it is true that on other occasions Hamilton said direct taxes were only capitations or land taxes, but Hamilton was the most nationalist member of the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention. He favored a President and a Senate that served for life terms; the abolition of the states; and the federal appointment of "territorial" governors. Alexander Hamilton was without a doubt the most nationalist of the Framers at Philadelphia, and even he admitted that a wealth tax was a direct tax in his brief in Hylton v. United States.
Third, the Amar brothers left out of their brief the following very relevant statement by Justice Samuel Chase:
"As it was incumbent on the plaintiff's counsel in error, so they took great pains to prove that the tax on carriages was a direct tax: but they did not satisfy my mind. *** I think, an annual tax on carriages for the conveyance of persons, may be considered as within the power granted to congress to lay duties [which are indirect taxes]. *** I am inclined to think, but of this I do not give a judicial opinion, that the direct taxes contemplated by the constitution, are only two, to wit, a capitation *** and a tax on land."
Justice Chase thus went out of his way to say that the very language in his opinion which the Amar brothers rely on is dicta and not the holding.
Fourth, the Amar brothers say nothing at all about the understanding in the state ratifying conventions at a time when the proceedings at the Philadelphia Convention were still a deeply kept secret. The Philadelphia proceedings were kept a secret on purpose so that the original understanding by the Thirteen State Ratifying Conventions of the Philadelphia Convention's text would prevail over the private intentions of the Framers of the Constitution. Astonishingly, the Amar brothers even tout as a virtue the fact that one of the three justices to render an opinion, in Hylton, Justice William Paterson, the author of the failed New Jersey Plan at the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention, attended and knew what had happened at the Philadelphia Ratifying Convention, and then broke the Convention's secrecy rules about its own deliberations! Support from such a duplicitous loser at Philadelphia would seem to count against and not in favor of reliance on the miscreant's actions.
The Amar brothers rely on Justice Patterson who grouses about his loss at the Philadelphia Convention to southerners who were worried about northern taxation of slaves and undeveloped land in the South. But, Justice Patterson specifically says that
"If congress, for instance, should tax, in the aggregate or mass, things that generally pervade all the states in the Union, then, perhaps, the rule of apportionment would be the most proper, especially if an assessment was to intervene. This appears to be the practice of some of the states, to have been considered as a direct tax. Whether it be so, under the constitution of the United States is a matter of some difficulty; but as it is not before the court, it would be improper to give any decisive opinion upon it."
Justice Iredell says only that since the carriage tax cannot be apportioned, it must be a duty, which is what Congress called it when it was passed, i.e. an indirect tax. He never directly says that direct taxes are only capitations or land taxes.
In any event, Hylton was a feigned case over which the Supreme Court did not even have jurisdiction. Brief of Amici Curiae Former Attorney General Edwin Meese III and Professors Steven G. Calabresi and Gary S. Lawson Supporting Petitioners at 26-27.
What really matters is what was said and understood at the state ratifying conventions since it was those conventions, and not the back room deals that were made about slavery at Philadelphia, which made the Constitution the supreme law of the land. Future Chief Justice John Marshall speaking at the Virginia Ratifying convention said: "The objects of direct taxes are well understood." Marshal listed them as "Lands, slaves, stock [i.e., business capital] of all kinds, and a few other articles of domestic property." Future Chief Justice Oliver Ellsworth speaking at the Connecticut Ratifying Convention said that targets of direct taxes included (he did not say "were limited to" the "tools of a man's business … necessary utensils of his family" thus corroborating Marshall's references to "stock" and "domestic property." After the Pennsylvania Ratifying Convention, delegates in the Anti-Federalist minority, which cared deeply about the direct/indirect taxes line, issued a statement that identified the subjects of direct taxes as those on polls (as confirmed by the Constitution) and on "land, cattle, trades, occupations, etc." The "Federal Farmer", a highly regarded Anti-Federalist paper lists as objects of Congress power of direct taxation, "polls, lands, houses, labour, etc." See generally, Robert Natelson, What the Constitution Means by "Duties, Imposts, and Excises" – and "Taxes" (Direct or Otherwise), 66 Case West. L. Rev. 297, 308-09 (2015). See also Erik M. Jensen, The Apportionment of "Direct Taxes": Are Consumption Taxes Constitutional?, 97 Colum. L. Rev. 2334 (1997).
Abraham Lincoln correctly believed, along with the Meese, Calabresi, and Lawson amicus brief, that federal income taxes were indirect taxes because they involved a transaction where a man sells his labor for a price. In general, direct taxes are those, which fall "straight" on a person like a capitation or wealth tax, and indirect taxes are those that fall on a "transaction" like a tariff, a sales tax, a gift tax, an income tax, or a transaction.
The Constitution uses the words "Duties, Imposts, and Excises – all of which are subject to the rule of uniformity, not apportionment -- as being in the words of the Hylton v. United States opinion writers "indirect taxes."
Samuel Johnson's 1755 Dictionary of the English Language defines the word "indirect" in the phrase 'indirect taxes" to have the following undesirable meanings in the 1790's:
Indire'ct. adj.
[indirect, Fr. indirectus, Lat.]
1. Not strait; not rectilinear.
2. Not tending otherwise than obliquely or consequentially to a point; as, an indirect accusation.
3. Wrong; improper.The tender prince
Would fain to have come with me to meet your grace;
But by his mother was perforce with-held.
—— Fy, what an indirect and peevish course
Is this of hers?
Shakespeare's Richard III.4. Not fair; not honest.
Think you, that any means under the sun
Can assecure so indirect a course?
Daniel's Civil War.Those things which they do know they may, upon sundry indirect considerations, let pass; and although themselves do not err, yet may they deceive others.
Hooker.
O pity and shame! that they who to live well
Enter'd so fair, should turn aside, to tread
Paths indirect.
Milton.Indirect dealing will be discovered one time or other, and then he loses his reputation.
Tillotson.
A federal wealth tax, like a capitation, or federal real estate tax would fall "straight" upon the taxpayer, and it would not fall in a "rectilinear" or "oblique" way. Indirect taxes are on transactions like importing goods; paying a sales tax; inheriting money; receiving a gift of money; or exchanging your labor for a salary. This is why Pollock v. Farmer's Loan & Trust Co., 157 U.S. 429 (1895), which held that rental income from land, was a direct tax was wrongly decided and elicited such a cry of concern from the left, the right, and the center in American politics. In the wake of that decision, many leftists called for abolishing the. direct/indirect line in the Taxation Clause altogether.
President William Howard Taft deliberately and knowingly chose a much narrower formulation for the Sixteenth Amendment – one that is consistent with Taft's constitutional philosophy.
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
Nothing in here about authorizing wealth taxes, Professor Bruce Ackerman. Nothing in here , Professor Ackerman, about taxing unrealized capital gains in violation of Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920). See Brief amici curiae of Professors of Law and Linguistics in support of neither party filed Sept. 6, 2023.
The linguistics-oriented amicus brief just cited uses a corpus linguistics approach to the original understanding of "We the People" who ratified the Sixteenth Amendment, which reveals that it covered only realized capital gains. I understand that the original understanding of tax law professors, in 1913, was that income was any accretion to wealth, but the people who made the Sixteenth Amendment law understood it as requiring realization of capital gains. Sorry again, Professor Ackerman, but Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920) was rightly decided given the original public meaning of the Sixteenth Amendment!
The Amar brothers are right that a few people at the Framing, like Justice Chase, in his Hylton v. United States dicta expected as an original matter that the Direct Taxes Clauses would be applied only to capitations and land taxes. But, a few people at the Framing thought the Commerce Clause was only about trade and barter and not about recreational traveling by land or boat, with or without lottery tickets, across state lines. And, more than a few people -- in fact most people -- expected when the Equal Protection Clause was enacted that it was somehow consistent with segregated public schools and laws against interracial marriage.
Today, we realize that it is gross error to rely on the original expected applications of the Constitution as opposed to the plain meaning of its text. Jack Balkin, Living Originalism (2011). This is true of the text in clauses that granted power, like the Commerce; Necessary and Proper; and Taxation Clauses, see National Federation of Independent Businesses v. Sebelius, 567 U.S. 519 (2012) (which is correct as to the Commerce, Necessary and Proper, and Taxation Clauses). The tax penalty for failing to buy health insurance in NFIB v. Sebelius only kicked in for those who owed more than some $43,000 a year on their income taxes, which are exempted from the requiring of "apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration." U.S. Const. amdm. XVI.
The plain meaning of the text obviously trumps original expected applications that school segregation, or anti-miscegenation laws, are consistent with the birth equality conferred by Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Akhil Reed Amar, America's Constitution, A Biography 349-392 (2005). And, for the same reasons, the original meaning of "direct" taxes as being all such taxes that fall straight on an individual and not on a transaction trump Justice Samuel Chases sloppy original expectation, expressed only in what he admits is dicta, that "direct taxes" are only land and capitation taxes. Other taxes, like a wealth tax, fall straight upon a person as well as capitation and land taxes.
"We must remember that it is a Constitution we are expounding. McCullough v. Maryland, 17 U.S. 316 (1819). "Let the requirement that direct taxes be apportioned be legitimate, let it be within the scope of the constitution, and all means which are appropriate, which are plainly adapted to that end, which are not prohibited, but consist with the letter and spirit of the constitution, are constitutional." Id. Prohibiting a national wealth tax without apportionment according to the census, is plainly adopted to achieving the end of the Direct Tax Clauses. Such a prohibition consists with "the letter and spirit of the constitution" and is thus appropriate as that word is defined in McCullough v. Maryland.
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"The Philadelphia proceedings were kept a secret on purpose so that the original understanding by the Thirteen State Ratifying Conventions of the Philadelphia Convention's text would prevail over the private intentions of the Framers of the Constitution."
So is this textualism, or originalism?
Probably neither. Unless Lindgren can cite a relevant source in the historical record, it's probably just another of the many assertions about history which he makes up.
You should read the first sentence.
gormadoc, you are right, of course. At the time I commented, the attribution block at the bottom named Lindgren.
The Volokh Conspirators -- partisans who call themselves scholars but operate according to the standards of flacks from the offices of a Boebert, Trump, Gaetz, or Greene -- published another revision without noting the change?
No wonder strong, mainstream schools no longer want these clingers on campus.
My understanding is that the secrecy during the convention was instituted because inaccurate reports might lead the public at large to misapprehend the result (storming a pizza parlor to rescue children from its nonexistent basement, that kind of thing) and might discourage delegates from speaking freely. Were they not freed from the secrecy at the conclusion of the convention? It's unfair to call Paterson a miscreant for what he revealed in a judicial opinion years later, which seems to be all Amar and Amar are referencing.
(Of course, it's Calabresi who must justify his assertions.)
Madison felt that they were not. His detailed recordings were only published after his death.
Others felt otherwise, and revealed information much earlier but after the convention ended or after the constitution was ratified. There were some leaks during the convention; those might be labeled miscreants.
The Philadelphia proceedings were kept secret so that armies/mobs wouldn't march on Philadelphia to shut it down. Remember, they were sent there to come up with amendments to the Articles of Confederation, not suggest a replacement.
Bellmore, that isn't even a fantasy. It's a counter-factual, and a tone deaf counter-factual at that.
Brett might be overstating but he’s basically correct. As someone (I think Gunning Bedford) put it when voting on secrecy, publishing the minutes would “furnish handles to the opposition”.
Sorry, meant to say "keeping minutes".
Remember, they were sent there to come up with amendments to the Articles of Confederation, not suggest a replacement.
It does not thus follow that there were mobs ready to shut it down.
Indeed, if there was so much opposition to a new constitution, how could it have been ratified?
Setting aside whether it's factually true what he says about why the proceedings were kept secret?
It'd be a variety of originalism.
It sounds like it's on a spectrum somewhere between "original intent of the framers" originalism and "original public meaning" originalism. Or a variety of the latter, if you take the relevant part of "the public" to be the ratifiers.
They say falsely that on their side they have George Washington, Alexander Hamilton
If the Founding Fathers saw this level of non-wartime borrowing and spending, and the plans to directly seize wealth, they would be more likely to start shootin' at them redcoats.
Wait. You completely disagree AND you also totally disagree? I'm not sure what work "and totally" is doing here. 🙂
Well, you never see a letter demanding someone cease without also desisting. Must be a lawyer thing.
It’s called a “legal doublet.” Like “null and void.”
As I occasionally remind my son, "We don't tell you to stop doing something with the intention that you immediately resume doing it!"
To cease is to stop. Desist means you can't, having stopped, resume doing whatever it was.
Glad to see a Lindgren post here again. Seems like 10 years since the last one.
"The plain meaning of the text obviously trumps original expected applications that school segregation, or anti-miscegenation laws,"
That became apparent in Bostock. There was no good argument that the original meaning of the civil rights act banned discrimination based on sexual orientation, but certainly a plausible reading of the text.
Do if that's the rule, then it should be applied across the board.
In what sense would this be a Lindgren post?
By the Volokh Conspiracy standards of scholarship and ethics, Lindgren is a co-author.
Is that a Kacsmaryk burn? If it is- I like it
Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Actually when it was originally posted, late last night, it said posted by Jim Lindgren.
But now I seem to remember this happened before with a Calabresi post, he had trouble logging on and posting it, so he had his Northwestern colleague post it for him and EV went back and cleaned it up with the correct attribution.
Really for future reference if there seems to be an inconsistency between something I say and how it is, just assume it got changed somehow from what it was, not that I was wrong.
But you can always assume Kirkland is wrong, that's he safe bet too.
When I first saw the post it still said Lindgren but it also said, at the top, that it was posted on behalf of Calabresi.
Well I guess this seems like a great opportunity to ask what it was that you liked about the “old” “real” lindgren posts? A fresh perspective you’re just not getting around here?
Lindgren was the most statistically literate of the conspirators.
I appreciate a rigorous numbers guy.
“rigorous numbers guy“
I like decade-long commenters who can read and don’t write kaczynski fan letters.
I suppose we can all ask Santa for something.
“Really for future reference if there seems to be an inconsistency between something I say and how it is, just assume it got changed somehow from what it was, not that I was wrong.”
QED
Wow this is gold
The issue with understanding the original meaning of the 16th amendment as only taxing realized gains is that it assumes the ratifiers/public meaning had a coherent notion of realization.
The distinction between money and assets gets pretty hard to draw in a modern world of liquid markets. For instance, suppose my bank calls me up and tells me they want to restructure the form of my account. From now on I won't own the dollars in my account, instead I'll own 100% of the shares in Peter's bank account. Now money is direct deposited into my account, have I realized that profit or not?
Seems to me the answer must be yes or we reveal the whole notion of realization to be essentially incoherent so it couldn't be the best understanding of the original meaning. On the other hand, if the answer is yes, then why haven't I realized a gain when the aggregate effect of the huge numbers of transactions undertaken by the company I own shares in results in it's increase in value.
I don’t think you are really thinking this through, taxing unrealized gains on hard assets would bankrupt the government.
A clear example would be the 2008-2012 financial crises, where there was a multi-year run up of Stocks, Bonds, and Real Estate in the 5 years before the crises hit. Then the Stock Market dropped 40%, bonds took a steep dive and real estate prices cratered.
Is the government going to refund all those taxes for all those unrealized gains for a multi year period? At the same time as having their revenue streams cut off for the next 4 years. And at the very time the government is going to need to step up spending on unemployment, stimulus, and stabilizing financial matkets.
And that’s hardly a rare event, in my lifetime I’ve seen the 73-74 Bear market, Black Monday in ’87, the Dotcom boom, and bust, 2008 financial crises, and the Covid dislocation.
As attractive as taxing unrealized gains can be, the pain to everyone when those gains take a big hit just isn’t worth it.
And as to whether the ratifiers had a coherent notion of realization, I think most policy makers going back to the South Sea Island bubble, or the Tulip Mania had a good idea of the difference between realized and unrealized gains.
Kaz - to add to your comment - one of the justifications for a lower capital gains tax rate is that a portion of the "realized gain" is inflation. That was especially true during the 1960's through the 1980's. Often individuals were paying income tax on "taxable gains" there were in fact on economic losses.
Heh. I remember paying taxes on the 5.5% interest you got from savings accounts, when the inflation rate was in double digits.
(Interest income, not capital gains, of course)
Absaroka - concur
That's a reasonable point, Kazinski, but there are arguments on the other side.
First, unrealized gains accrue untaxed. That's a big advantage.
Second, investors are allowed to time when they realize the gains and losses, so as to minimize CG taxes.
Third, donating appreciated assets to charities is a great deal. You get the tax deduction without paying tax on the gain.
Fourth, your heirs get the famous stepup in basis, which wipes out the gain for tax purposes. This also lets you borrow against your portfolio and live on the loan proceeds. Your heirs repay the loan from the estate, but benefit from gaining untaxed assets.
It is certainly possible to eliminate some of these tax advantages without taxing unrealized gains.
“First, unrealized gains accrue untaxed. That’s a big advantage.”
Its a benefit, I’m not sure how its an “advantage”.
But yeah its a benefit, how many people could afford home ownership if they had to pay taxes on the unrealized gain every year.
In Tesla’s early years before and after it went public could Musk have afforded to maintain his stake, and show the necessary patience to allow it to develop through its growing pains?
As for the charity deduction, that's something added to the tax code as an incentive to donate to charity, you could as easily tax the gain when you dispose of it whether its donated or not, but of course there wouldn't be an incentive to donate. Make a choice, and Congress chose to provide an incentive.
Yes, Kazinski, these were policy choices.
That doesn't mean they were desirable choices, and that the benefits outweighed the cost.
how many people could afford home ownership if they had to pay taxes on the unrealized gain every year.
That would be a problem. But it doesn't apply to investment portfolios.
.
I can see why that’s a disadvantage to the government, but how is it an advantage to the taxpayer? By definition he hasn’t realized those gains, so what value do they have to him? Once he realizes them, he does have to pay the taxes.
You don't pay taxes on the gain because you didn't get the gain! What's the "great deal"? ("Great news: if you forfeit your money you won't have to pay taxes on it!") I assure you that as a taxpayer you end up with more money if you keep the money, and pay taxes on the gain, than you do by giving the money to charity.
You talk as if any time one doesn't pay taxes on money one has won a benefit, even if one doesn't have the money!
I may be misunderstanding the objection, but for an infinite frictionless plane explanation: you invest $100 each in a tax deferred and pay-as-you-go taxable account. After a year both return 10% and are now worth $110. But you owe taxes - let's say 25% - on the taxable gain, so you withdraw $2.50 from the taxable account and send that to the IRS. If you do a program or spreadsheet and iterate that for a few years, then liquidate both - including paying deferred taxes - you'll get more money from the deferred account.
One way to look at is that in the deferred account, your $2.50 is still earning a return every year, and you get to keep part of that. In the taxable account, you send the $2.50 off to the IRS, who then benefits from investing it, or spends it wildly, or whatever, but you have lost the future returns from that $2.50.
(in the real world with marginal rates it's a lot more complicated ... your income today vs when you realize deferred gains, changes in the law along the way, ordinary income vs LTCG, blah, blah)
how is it an advantage to the taxpayer? By definition he hasn’t realized those gains, so what value do they have to him? Once he realizes them, he does have to pay the taxes.
It's an advantage because they compound tax-free, like an IRA, for example. If your $100 worth of stock goes up 10% two years in a row it's worth $121. If you had to pay tax on the first year's gain, say $2, then it would only be worth $108 after the first year and then $118.80 after the second.
You don’t pay taxes on the gain because you didn’t get the gain! What’s the “great deal”?
You want to contribute $10,000 to some charity. You have a stock holding worth $10,000, which includes a $5000 gain.
If you sell the stock and give the money to charity you pay CG tax on $5000 and get a $10,000 tax deduction. If you donate the stock directly you get the $10K deduction without ever paying CG tax on the $5K gain. You are better off by the amount of the tax you didn't have to pay.
To clarify:
Suppose I hold a stock for one year, with negligible basis, and a gain of $10000 over the year. I earn $90K during the year.
You have no such stock, but earn $100K.
We both have $100K of income, and both want to contribute $10,000 to charity.
You get a $10K deduction and pay tax on $90K.
I get a $10K deduction and pay tax on $80K.
Obviously this works if you made only $90K, but got some sort of windfall - a $10K bonus, maybe, or gambling winnings, or whatever.
I can see why that’s a disadvantage to the government, but how is it an advantage to the taxpayer? By definition he hasn’t realized those gains, so what value do they have to him? Once he realizes them, he does have to pay the taxes.
The advantage to the taxpayer is that the gain has grown untaxed, so when he finally realizes it he pays less tax on the, say, five year gain than he would have had he paid on the gain every year.
More generally, trying to come up with any principled notion of what realization is gets super hard. What about other currencies, derivatives, bitcoin etc.. etc..
When a cryptocurrencies intrinsic code causes the value of some digital token you have to increase have you realized a profit? You own the same token -- but then why is the token the appropriate object of ownership we don't view your bank username and password as the asset.
I don't believe it's even possible to give a non-trivial definition that's independent of trivial bookkeeping differences. For instance the following change:
The bank replaces it's database of accounts and dollar amounts with a database of accounts, asset tokens and asset token values. Each account X gets 2^30 X-tokens and the value of an X-token is recorded to be whatever gives the right total for your bank account. Every time money is moved from one account to another (e.g. you get paid) the bank adjusts the *value* (not number) of tokens in each account to keep the balances correct. Only when you take out physical cash does the bank reduce the number of asset tokens accordingly.
Sure, you can say it's just an obvious fraud but similar non-absurd cases can certainly occur.
I would find you easier to understand if you confined yourself to non-absurd cases.
OTOH, an alternate reading of realization is that all abstract assets (stocks etc..) instantly realize their value changes (for constitutional purposes). The idea is that these are mere fictions and calling my bank account an ‘asset’ doesn’t stop changes in it’s value from counting as realization and that if my stock increases in value because of buying and selling by the company it's a share in those are also realization events for me.
Of course, stocks change value both because of transactions done by the company and changes in ambient prices (e.g. of it’s capital) but it’s reasonable to say that when you can’t disentangle the realized and unrealized portions you count them as all realized.
This essentially moves all financial instruments that do anything but own some underlying physical asset into the category (for constitutional not tax law purposes) of realized gains. That's slightly more principled.
Exactly how do you tax unrealized gains? It has never worked. Because unrealized gains can become unrealized losses...then what, tax deductions for unrealized losses?
That is just an employment guarantee for CPAs and tax attorneys, pragmatically speaking.
No. When you lose your employment and the taxable income you got by it, the government does not refund your previous taxes. The government keeps them. Same with your income from unrealized gains. You get taxed more when your circumstances improve; when your circumstances decline, you get sympathy, not refunds.
Want to put an end to cockamamie schemes to tax unrealized gains? Put an end to cockamamie schemes to game the tax code. But of course, when the point of the advocacy is tax avoidance, that's asking too much.
Stephen Lathrop 2 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
No. When you lose your employment and the taxable income you got by it, the government does not refund your previous taxes. "
Lathrop - Commentator was pointing out the absurdity of taxing unrealized gains and the negative consequences of taxing unrealized gains that are often in economic fact are phantom gains.
Phantom gains that disappear
"When you lose your employment and the taxable income you got by it, the government does not refund your previous taxes. "
That is an absurd application of concepts about past gains and losses to future potential gains. How can you be so foolish?
Years of practice.
Lathrop, the government only taxes the gain you have already realized from he wages you have been paid. They don't tax future unrealized wages.
But you do get to deduct realized capital losses.
Hold on a minute ! Lathrop may have hit on a winner here. We can’t fire 90% of the federal civilian workforce because they’re not “at will.”
But we can, it seems, tax them this year on their next 20 years earnings. All at top rates !
So either they’ll quit or they’ll beg for “at will” status, or we’ll halve the national debt. What’s not to like ?
It is that, but only incidentally.
What you've got here is a symptom of a terminal spending binge. The federal government has been spending beyond its means for decades, has used one 'emergency' after another to blow through previous historical norms of spending.
Now they're starting to run into a brick wall on borrowing, interest payments are beginning to comprise a large and rising fraction of the federal budget, lenders are beginning to balk at lending more.
So, rather than lower spending back to historical norms, they're trying to claw in all the private assets they can get away with. And don't care if doing so is sustainable; Borrowing wasn't really sustainable, either.
They're just trying to keep the party going until they check out, and let the crash happen on somebody else's watch. Nothing more complicated than that. It's a desperation move in the last stages of a government that has no spending discipline at all anymore.
No, though. Our debt is not at a brick wall.
Other countries have higher debt-to-GRP ratios and they are still able to borrow.
Your whole scenario here relies on an economic situation you made up out of whole cloth.
Debt to GRP ratio’s - top 12 Venezuela — 350% Japan — 266% Sudan — 259% Greece — 206% Lebanon — 172% Cabo Verde — 157% Italy — 156% Libya — 155% Portugal — 134% Singapore — 131% Bahrain — 128% United States — 128%
Sacastro – Welcome to the Paul krugman school of economics
ratios, not ratio's.
Sacastro finds a typo
It's a joke because your comment doesn't really come against what I said.
There is no wall of no more borrowing we are experiencing.
Sarcastr0 2 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Sacastro's response to Brett - "No, though. Our debt is not at a brick wall."
"Other countries have higher debt-to-GRP ratios and they are still able to borrow."
"Your whole scenario here relies on an economic situation you made up out of whole cloth."
Sacastro - You should have a better understanding of what you write - There are 11 countries with higher debt to grp ratios. Yes, they can still borrow, but at much higher borrowing costs. The US Debt levels are reaching those levels where the higher borrowing costs will kick in. The paul Krugman advocated sugar highs will only last so long, the final results wont be pretty.
What does Krugman know about economics compared to Joe_Dallas?
The US Debt levels are reaching those levels where the higher borrowing costs will kick in.
Talk about not understanding economics. If that were the case then rates would already be sharply higher. Markets anticipate.
Krugman the academic economist is quite knowledgable
Krugman the pundit who posts with the NYT is frequently quite wrong.
Krugman the academic economist is quite knowledgable.
Krugman the pundit who posts with the NYT is frequently quite wrong.
Krugman the academic economist is extremely knowledgable.
Krugman the pundit who posts with the NYT is occasionallywrong. And that's when he writes on non-economic subjects.
Someone who is extremely, or even quite, knowledgeable on some subject is unlikely to make a lot of mistakes when writing on that subject.
I know that, lacking a solid rebuttal, people on the right tend to resort to the argument you make, but it's unconvincing.
bernard11 7 mins ago
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"Krugman the pundit who posts with the NYT is occasionallywrong. And that’s when he writes on non-economic subjects.
Someone who is extremely, or even quite, knowledgeable on some subject is unlikely to make a lot of mistakes when writing on that subject."
Bernard11 - Back in the day Before NYT columns werent behind a paywall, Krugman had is weekly Friday column. It was quite rare that Krugman did not have at least 4 or 5 facts wrong in his column. There used to be a Krugman watch listing all his factual errors.
Paul Krugman Nov 9, 2016 — "If the question is when markets will recover, a first-pass answer is never."
Saying because Krugman is a Nobel Prize winning economist, specializing in trade and economies of scale, then he can accurately pontificate on any area of economics is a fallacy. He isn't an expert in tax and fiscal policy.
You wouldn't go to an immigration lawyer, no matter how skilled to handle your corporate bankruptcy. Economics is as diverse a subject as the law and specializing in one area doesn't confer expertise across the field.
You certainly don't listen to the John Clauser, 2022 Nobel Prize in Physics Winner, when he says that he doesn't think CO2 is the driving factor in our recent warming.
Tom,
Back in the day Before NYT columns werent behind a paywall, Krugman had is weekly Friday column. It was quite rare that Krugman did not have at least 4 or 5 facts wrong in his column. There used to be a Krugman watch listing all his factual errors.
No. He did not have 4 or five facts wrong in a typical column. That's complete BS.
I remember that there was some asshole (maybe Stephen Moore) who beclowned himself with something like that.
Kazinski,
Making an incorrect prediction about the markets is hardly evidence of incompetence. If it were, then we would have to consider everyone on Wall Street incompetent.
As for specialization, well trade policy is pretty closely tied to macroeconomics.
You wouldn’t go to an immigration lawyer, no matter how skilled to handle your corporate bankruptcy.
True, but I'd rather do that than let Joe_Dallas handle it.
Joe_dallas, punditry typically being about the future, pretty much all would-be pundits are frequently mistaken.
Stephen Lathrop 3 hours ago Flag Comment Mute User “Joe_dallas, punditry typically being about the future, pretty much all would-be pundits are frequently mistaken.”
Krugman’s frequent pundry errors are factual errors. If you cant spot 3-4 factual misstatements or misrepresentations in one of his columns, then you either poorly informed or not very observent.
Joe,
Show me.
One of my favorite examples of Krugman pundit dishonesty was a column he wrote that the US should adopt more french economic policies because the "european economic growth was greater than the US economic growth. What he failed to mention was that A) the french economic growth during the period he cited was less than the US and B) the european economic growth included the former eastern bloc of Europe as they were emerging from under the soviet thumb.
Yet that is typical krugman dishonesty
link please
the issue is not so much the actual debt to GDP as the cost to service debt as a fraction of GDP.
Nico – I concur –
The point of my response to Sacastro in his response to Brett is that he is repeating one of his favorite macro economic themes that the US can continue borrowing with little or no economic consequences. Its a common theme of the Pundit Krugman who frequently advocates sugar highs of deficit spending.
In this nation at least, advocacy for deficit spending as a virtuous policy pretty much began with Hamilton. He was also the first policy maker to make good on the promise.
Its a common theme of the Pundit Krugman who frequently advocates sugar highs of deficit spending.
You are full of shit.
Yes Krugman, like most macroeconomists thinks deficit spending is a good idea in an economic downturn. That's by no means a "sugar high."
bernard11 14 mins ago
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Its a common theme of the Pundit Krugman who frequently advocates sugar highs of deficit spending.
You are full of shit.
Yes Krugman, like most macroeconomists thinks deficit spending is a good idea in an economic downturn. That’s by no means a “sugar high.”
Bernad - you really should spend time reading and understanding what the pundit Krugman says - He repetitively advocates a sugar high of deficit spending.
Joe, just repeating yourself but being super condescending about it isn't an argument.
Neither is calling Krugman 'pundit Krugman' like it's some kind of appellation.
You seem to be ipse-dixiting that either Krugman always advocates for deficit spending, which is absolutely untrue; the MMT folks hate the guy.
Or you are saying deficit spending is a sugar high, which is also untrue. The utility (and costs) of stimulus spending is one of the few macroeconomic principles we have managed to establish.
another source of debt to grp ratios
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp
"higher debt-to-GRP ratios "
you mean that we are not as bad off as Greece?
it may not be a brick wall, but it is a steep, downhill road to hell
I just yesterday heard on the radio a report that said the Greek economy has lately been thriving. To be fair, the reporters said it was surprising.
Thanks to the magnanimity of the German Central Bank.
I'm not an MMT guy who says there is no effect to the national debt.
However, 'now they’re starting to run into a brick wall on borrowing' is manifestly untrue.
lenders are beginning to balk at lending more.
They are? The yield on the ten-year Treasury is about 4.2%, down from 5% a month ago. It's still higher than it has been in recent years, but is at or below the level during the years leading up to the 2007-8 crisis.
I think you would have to allow unrealized losses as a deduction, just in the interest of fairness.
The object of taxation is to raise revenue.
Yes, it is, but raising it in a fair manner looks like a desirable design feature.
Sure, but "fair" is a pretty stretchy, bendy yardstick.
But as well as "fair" there's "practical." And that is the main objection to taxing unrealised income and gains. It is an enormous make work scheme for paper pushers, for little by way of gain to the tax collectors. You could get the same amount of money in, simply by raising rates a very small amount.
This applies to all the schemes and wheezes the government has thought up for accelerating the payment date of taxes, including estimated tax payments.
It's a whole lot of effort just so the government can say the tax rate is 20% rather than 21%.
The object of taxation is to raise revenue.
Lee Moore, and to do it, you have no choice. You must take that money from the people who have it in surplus quantities. In the long term, nothing else can work politically, or economically.
That has a corollary. Policies designed to funnel money toward holders of surpluses also, willy-nilly, demand policies to tax the ensuing surpluses.
Of course, as Willie Sutton apocryphally said, you have to go where the money is. But I'm not buying :
That has a corollary. Policies designed to funnel money toward holders of surpluses also, willy-nilly, demand policies to tax the ensuing surpluses.
The obvious solution to any government policies designed to funnel money about is to stop the funneling, and leave the money to flow according to the preferences of the public in their voluntary transactions.
But of course the funneling is meta-funneling - it is designed to funnel money to the legislators, their backers and their clients. So the solution is not to increase the taxes to claw back a slice of the political funneling, but to reduce the taxes so that they have less to funnel.
Alexander Hamilton was without a doubt the most nationalist of the Framers at Philadelphia,
If that is true, I have no notion what nationalism is. Hamilton more nationalist than, Madison, Washington, or Wilson, what could that mean?
Seriously, you don't understand?
Madison, Washington, Wilson, meant to create a federation, where the states retained a large measure of their original sovereignty.
Hamilton, by contrast, was trying to create a unitary state. He was a bit sneaky about it, since that goal wasn't terribly popular, but, with the Constitution, his goal was to plant an acorn, in order to get an oak tree.
And he was pretty successful at that, damn him.
Oh hey Brett has found a sekret cabal of people you don't like plotting with a timescale no human plotted on for something no human could predict.
And Washington was not against a strong federalized system, especially when it came to debt. His not going along with his fellow Virginians is part how he was special.
There you go again. To argue with Brett (your favorite hobby) to hop on you favorite hobby-horse, conspiracy theory, this time in the form of a sekret cabal.
Doesn't that game get old for you?
How would you more charitably characterize the claim, “The constitution is the product of Alexander Hamilton’s centuries-long plot to eliminate state sovereignty”?
Did Brett write that line in quotes? I don't see it in his post.
Or are you doing S_0 one better in making up words (in quotes) that others did not use.
Did Brett write that line in quotes? I don’t see it in his post.
"Hamilton, by contrast, was trying to create a unitary state. He was a bit sneaky about it, since that goal wasn’t terribly popular, but, with the Constitution, his goal was to plant an acorn, in order to get an oak tree."
How is that materially different from what Noscitur wrote? Or are you dinging him for using the double quotes incorrectly?
Well it’s different in the sense that plotting over 15 or 20 years to sow an acorn that you hope will grow into a mighty oak 200 years after you’re dead sounds non insane.
Because the plotting is over within 20 years, and you require no sekret kabal to keep the plot going for 200 years. Your work is done with the launch.
Lots of kings and statesmen have done things in their brief careers that they hoped for payback from (for their kingdoms, states, dynasties etc) in the not very forseeable future. Setting up colonies being an obvious example.
No, it is insane. 'Hamilton secretly hid stuff in the Constitution to *eventually* take away state sovereignty' has no support
It’s like blaming the 10th Amendment on alien mind control.
I understood the meaning perfectly well. Hamilton favored a powerful central (“national”) government with states that were more in the nature of provinces than semi-independent sovereigns, as distinct from from members of the Convention who favored powerful states and a federal (natiknall) government with only limited powers. What “national” meant here was obvious enough from context.
"Today, we realize that it is gross error to rely on the original expected applications of the Constitution as opposed to the plain meaning of its text. Jack Balkin, Living Originalism"
The title says it all: Balkin isn't an originalist. He's a living constitutionalist who is, fairly openly, out to gut originalism so that living constitutionalism can wear it as a skin suit. Worth reminding people of, whenever he's cited as an authority on originalism.
They ought to train a cadre of lawyers and judges in mathematics and finance. Unless they're renaissance persons who can master any subject in the course of researching a case. Innumerate judges/lawyers may have some difficulty figuring out the economic parts of the Constitution.
There is absolutely no need to decide the question that Professors Amar, Lindgren, Callabrisi have spent so much time arguing. Moore has nothing to do with wealth taxes, and if would be at most dicta if not a violation of Article III for the Supreme Court to offer an opinion on the the subject in the case.
The question in Moore is whether the United States can employ a pass-through procedure to attribute the pro rata income earned by foreign corporations like KisanKraft, the Indian corporation the Moores invested in, to their American shareholders.
This is done all the time. An S corporation is simply a corporation with a pass-through taxing procedure. All the tax code provision the Moores challenge does is say that certain foreign corporstions are to be treated like Anerican S corporations for tax purposes.
It could perhaps be argued that corporations have some sort of constitutional right, arising somewhere in the penumbras and emanations of tax lawyer wishful thinking, not to be treated as alter egos of their owners for tax purposes. But Agency for Int’l Development v. Alliance for Open Society put an end to that argument so far as foreign corporations like KisanKraft are concerned, by holding that foreigners in general and foreign corporations in particular lack constitutional rights.
So Congress can simply declare KisanKraft to be an analog of an S corporation for tax purposes by legislative fiat. And it can consider the “unrealized sums” involved to be personal income of the shareholders, just as it does for S corporations.
What is being taxed here is income, not wealth, income as clearly subject to the 16th Amendment as income of an S corporation. The professors in this post, like the appellant, are simply declaring it to be wealth rather than income based on nothing more than wishful thinking and more belief in corporate fairies and fictions than is appropriate for adult members of our society to have. No foreign constitutional rights means no obligation to respect foreign corporations’ corporate formalities. Once those formalities are dissed, what’s at stake in this case is nothing more than personal income. That’ all this case is really about, and how it should be decided.
That is, I don’t think there is Article III standing for the Supreme Court to answer the original question presented as a facial matter. Or if there is the answer is obviously yes. Even accrual accounting, the most common accounting method for large corporations, often treats “unrealized sums” as income. It is constitutionally permissable to tax unrealized sums in so many instances that you have to dig for cases where there’s even an argument that it’s not.
These professors have managed to dig up a situation where there’s an argument it’s unconstitutional. But other than in tax lawyers’ feverish (and very well paid) imaginations, facial challenges in tax law cases do not merit anything like the judicial solicitousness of the First Amendment overbreadth doctrine. Tax laws, like most laws, are constitutional if they are constitutional in a significant number of cases. The accrual method of accounting, S corporations, and many more everyday instances show that cases where “unrealized sums” constitute constitutionally taxable income for 16th Amendment purposes are positively ubiquitous.
I understand this theory at a general handwaving level, but as soon as you get into details the argument has a tendency to pull to the right, into the ditch.
1. The Moore case involves the owners, who undoubtedly have constitutional rights, arguing that they should not be taxed (for constitutional reasons.) The IRS is not attempting to tax the foreign corporation itself, hence its lack of constitutional rights is irrelevant. The question is whether the IRS is entitled to treat the owners of the corporation as if they owned the income directly, when as a matter of fact, they do not.
2. S corporations are a precedent in favor of the IRS, but they are different, because treating the owners as owning the income directly is something the owners have to voluntarily opt into. If they don’t the IRS can’t sic that on them.
3. The precedent which is really exercising you, of course, is Citizens United. Which stands for the proposition that domestic corporations are entitled to constitutional free speech rights. Which is not the same proposition that the IRS is entitled to disregard the corporate veil.
In an S corporation, the IRS does not attempt to tax thr corporation itself, but instead treats income realized by the corporation as if it were realized by the shareholders.
The tax law here simply says, in relevant substance, that certain foreign corporations are to be treated like S corporations for tax purposes. The Moores’ objection implicitly assumes the corporation they own shares in has some sort of right to be treated as a legally distinct entity for tax purposes. It doesn’t. Foreign corporations in general have no inherent right to be recognized as independent legal entities for any purpose, taxes included. So as with an S corporation, Congress has the right to declare that income realized by the foreign corporation they own shares in is regarded as pass-through income, income realized by the Moores. Having no constitutional rights means that Constitution imposes no requirement that the owners get any say at all in how a foreign corporation’s taxing is to be classified. The Moore’s voluntarily chose to put their money in a foreign corporation. By choosing to do so, they voluntarily accepted whatever tax structure Congress chose to impose.
And yes, no constititional rights means Congress can choose to ignore the corporate veil of a foreign corporation whenever and for whatever purposes it chooses to. It can pass a law tomorrow saying American shareholders are personally liable for a pro rata share of foreign corporations’ debts, and while it might not apply to cases in litigation at the time, it would be constitutional prospectively. It can simply confiscate foreign corporations’ property entirely if it wants to. And it has done so! For example, Congress confiscated the patents of German corporations in World War I and II. No right to life, liberty, or property means no right to life, liberty, or property. Americans invest in foreign corporations at their peril. Caveat emptor.
While Congress for very understandable reasons has not chosen to treat foreign businesses (in countries we’re at peace with) anywhere nearly as arbitrarily as it has power to do if it wants, foreign corporations nonetheless often get less favorable tax treatment. For example, they can be double-taxed by both the United States and the country of domicile. Treating certain foreign corporations as S-corporations for American tax purposes is no different. If the Moores find the tax environment unfavorable, for this or any other reason, they have no obligation to invest in foreign corporations.
In an S corporation, the IRS does not attempt to tax thr corporation itself, but instead treats income realized by the corporation as if it were realized by the shareholders.
You keep on ignoring the point that this is by agreement with the shareholders. The shareholders elect to pay the tax themselves in return for the IRS not collecting from the corporation. No election, the IRS taxes the corporation.
The Moores’ objection implicitly assumes the corporation they own shares in has some sort of right to be treated as a legally distinct entity for tax purposes.
No it doesn't. It explicitly assumes that they, the Moores, have a right to be taxed only on their own, realised, income. And they argue that that does not include unrealised gains on the value of their shaeholdings. If the IRS was making the argument that you are making - which I don't think it is - then no doubt the Moores would be arguing that the income of the foreign corporation does not belong to them, but to the corporation. Their argument has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed rights of the corporation itself.
no constititional rights means Congress can choose to ignore the corporate veil of a foreign corporation whenever and for whatever purposes it chooses to. It can pass a law tomorrow saying American shareholders are personally liable for a pro rata share of foreign corporations’ debts, and while it might not apply to cases in litigation at the time, it would be constitutional prospectively.
Can Congress pass a law saying YOU are personally liable the debts of KisanKraft ? If not, why not ?
And if it can pass laws saying that shareholders are personally liable for foreign corporations debts, notwithstanding the local laws governing those corporations, why can it not do the same for domestic corporations ? Or can it ?
But of course an S Corporation is limited to a 100 share holders, and the ground rules going in are the income will be allocated yearly.
C-corps can and do have millions of shareholders from the sophisticated to novice investors to the robot run ETF. And don't say you are just going to tax the rich, because there is no limiting principle.
Readery comment – “This is done all the time. An S corporation is simply a corporation with a pass-through taxing procedure. All the tax code provision the Moores challenge does is say that certain foreign corporations are to be treated like AMerican S corporations for tax purposes.””
FYI – The pass through treatment for S Corporations requires an election to be made by the shareholders. Absent the affirmative S Election, the corporation is tax as a C corporation. The statute is thus requiring the taxpayer to disregard the legal structure of the entity. It should also be noted that the US is one of the very countries that worldwide income and which would make the US probably the only country that would tax unrealized foreign income.
A second point is that the taxation of the unrealized income likely is a violation of the US – India income tax treaty. See Article 2 of the US India tax treaty.
For S corporations, Congress said it requires an election. For this corporation, Congress said it doesn’t require an election. Particularly where foreign corporations are involved, whether shareholders get any say in the matter or not is entirely for Congress to decide.
Whether it complies with American treaty obligations or not is a separate matter. I’m just discussing whether Congress has the constitutional power to do this and whether it counts as income for 16th Amendment purposes. Congress has the power, and it’s income.
You are assuming that if Congress passed a law dispensing with the need for shareholders to elect for S corporation treatment, that that would be constitutional.
But since they haven't, there has been no occasion to test your assumption in court. Thus the S corporation precedent is not relevant precedent to the Moore case.
I’m limiting my argument to foreign corporations. Foreign corporations have no constitutional rights.
But yes, I think it could do the same for domestic corporations so far as the 16th Amendment is concerned. The definition of “income” doesn’t in general depend on whether the taxpayer likes it or not. If it can be classified as income under the 16th Amendment when the taxpayer agrees, it can also be classified as income when the taxpayer doesn’t agree.
For a domestic corporation, there might perhaps be some sort of Due Process or Takings Clause argument. (I don’t think so, since Congress can double-tax C-corporation dividends without the taxpayer’s consent.) But not for a foreign corporation. Foreign corporations don’t have constitutional rights. That means they don’t have Due Process or Takings Clause rights. So for a foreign corporation, rhere’s no question Congress can do this.
Your arguement is a bit like the one that sure, Brown v. Board of Education applies to segregated schools, but nobody ever said anything about segregated academies, so the theory remains to be tested. Sure, it applies to segregated elementary and junior high schools, but nobody said anything about middle schools. You’re taking mere convenience categories and treating them as if they had constitutional relevance. It’s a loser’s desparate last-ditch argument.
ReaderY 2 hours ago (edited)
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I’m limiting my argument to foreign corporations. Foreign corporations have no constitutional rights."
Neither are Foreign Corporations subject to US Taxation - unless they have US source income. In this case, the foreign corporation doesnt have US Source income. Section 965 (?) is attempting to tax that foreign source income that would be outside US jurisdiction.
first impression is that provision would also likely violate the US India tax treaty.
The most problematic part of the bill is it "deems" anyone who owned shares in the foreign corporation to have received all the capital gains going back decades, whether they owned the stock then or not.
There is no justification for attributing income from before an asset is acquired to the current owner, when the seller would have presumably realized that gain when the sold the stock, and paid taxes on it.
You may well be right that for an American who bought foreign stock, only income realized after purchase could be attributed to the shareholder (as income for 16th Amendment purposes) under the S-corporation analog theory.
Because the Moore’s purchased their 11% stake in KisanKraft in 2005, I’m not sure if that would help them here.
There is no S-corp analog theory, only an S-corp analog justification.
But its also worth noting, that S-Corps are actually treated the same as C-corps in that both have to pay taxes on all he business's income in the year that its earned. The difference being that C-corp income is taxed again when it is distributed to the shareholders.
If you want to start treating some C corporations as S-corporations then you'd have to start by exempting them from the corporate income tax.
No. The S-corporation theory only establishes that Congress can constitutionally attribute the monies involved as income to the shareholders under the 16th Amendment. If corporate income can be attributed to shareholders under the 16th Amendment in general, as occurs in an S corporation, then it can here too. “S-corporation” is simply a tax concept, a creature of Congress, a statutory term. Congress no more needs to mimic the S-corporation statute exactly for the 16th Amendment definition of “income” to apply than a publisher needs to apply mechanical pressure to press ink onto paper for the First Amendment definition of “press” to apply.
Nothing in the 16th Amendment says taxes have to be applied annually. Annual taxes was simply Congress’ choice. It can tax more frequently. (Some taxes are due quarterly.) It can tax less frequently.
I’m limiting my argument to Moore’s situation. My understanding is that the provision the Moores are complaining about applies to monies that are NOT already taxed by the US on the corporate side.
Note: Not sure the double-taxation argument has any merit as a constitutional argument. C-corporation dividends are already double-taxed. And investments on foreign corporations are often already double-taxed (and dividends triple-taxed) because Congress has no obligation to provide a credit for taxes paid to foreign governments.
ReaderY 2 hours ago (edited)
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No. The S-corporation theory only establishes that Congress can constitutionally attribute the monies involved as income to the shareholders under the 16th Amendment. If corporate income can be attributed to shareholders under the 16th Amendment in general, as occurs in an S corporation, then it can here too. “S-corporation” is simply a tax concept, a creature of Congress, a statutory term. Congress no more needs to mimic the S-corporation statute exactly for the 16th Amendment definition of “income” to apply than a publisher needs to apply mechanical pressure to press ink onto paper for the First Amendment definition of “press” to apply."
ReaderY
your analysis of US Title 26 Subchapter S is completely off the mark.
Once again, nobody knows what a "direct tax" is, and all the briefing on this is basically BS'ing.
There's an example of something like this in California. A statute prohibits "stud horse poker". This is generally agreed NOT to mean stud poker, the game where you are dealt cards down and up and bet after each card. But... NOBODY knows what the hell "stud horse poker" actually was. It's lost to history.
So California just treats that statute as inoperative. It's all we can do. We don't know what the framers were talking about, so we can't enforce it.
To me, that's "direct tax". People who are certain of its meaning are liars. It's some concept that I guess got batted around in the 18th Century, or maybe it was compromise language between different factions who were trying to pass a version of the tax power provisions of the Constitution. But it's a meaningless concept. Taxes are not "direct" or "indirect".
So the idea that we are going to strike down an act of the people's representatives based on language that NOBODY knows the meaning of, and which never could pass today, is just crazy.
There is dispute over the precise boundary. That doesn't make the term meaningless; everyone (at least everyone reasonable) agrees that certain taxes would be direct taxes.
Yes, some agreement on what direct taxes are; but, of course, not a satisfactory list or criteria. Concerning realization: If i have $1,000 in Fed notes, deposit credit, or private equity (today’s mark-to-market); and then the government inflates the currency causing my present wealth to be revalued at $1,200, have i earned $200… with no material change, labor given, and no transaction?
The kind of permissible taxation cannot be determined without a constant understanding of actual (realized?) value (to whom?).
Sure there is a precise definition on the measure of its value: Federal Reserve Notes.
So sure its not fair that if you have invested 100k in an instrument that is contracted to return precisely the inflation rate after holding it one year, lets say 5%, you would pay taxes on that 5% gain, even though your spending power is the same.
Who said taxes are fair?
But if you really want to get arcane about value, what if you then took that inflated 105k, and invested it in real estate that had lost 10% of its value in the last year? Inflation just measures the change in value of a basket of goods and services, it doesn't measure the changes in value of what you actually decide to spend your money on.
Thankfully, under California law licensed table stakes lowball and draw poker clubs were legal, making it possible for me to earn my tuition and then some in card rooms in Palo Alto as an undergraduate in the 1960s. By contrast, stud games were illegal and the domain of frat houses, the last redoubt of terrible poker players. It never made sense then or now.
As for originalism, it's just a latter day form of ancestor worship.
Michael Masinter 37 mins ago
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"As for originalism, it’s just a latter day form of ancestor worship."
Another commentator explaining the interpretation of the law should be fluid so you get the answer you want.
joe_dallas, originalism always gets interpreted by lawyers, judges, and policy advocates who lack education about methods to posit legitimate inferences about what happened in the past. That means every so-called originalist decision is in fact an unconstrained exercise.
The method as practiced filters by a guaranteed-inapplicable present-minded context of interpretation subsets of historical citations chosen nearly at random. Time and again, almost every time, so-called originalism arrives at conclusions which can be proved unconstrained. To prove it, you consult the historical record and show that no one from the era under study ever said anything at all like what the decision says.
You find that again and again, because during that bygone era it was literally impossible to think like today’s judges think. From the point of view of the era under study, that present-minded context relied upon by the judge lay entirely in the unknowable future of the historical figures the judge mistakenly supposes he interprets.
Try it yourself. Rummage through founding era documents to your heart’s content, and see if you can find anything which reads like, Heller, Dobbs, or Bruen—or like any other so-called originalist legal decision.
Stephen Lathrop 4 hours ago (edited)
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joe_dallas, originalism always gets interpreted by lawyers, judges, and policy advocates who lack education about methods to posit legitimate inferences about what happened in the past. That means every so-called originalist decision is in fact an unconstrained exercise."
WTF? Lathrop - do you have any concept of how to interpret history.
No, lathrop does not.
Sure, Joe_dallas. For instance, I know that you can greatly improve on methods which attempt historical analysis based on present-minded context. By which I mean context the era under study never heard of. I can recommend a brief book on the subject: On History, by Michael Oakeshott.
Or, if an academic approach to historical technique is not your cup of tea, simply pick up any work written by Edmund Morgan. Most of Morgan's career preceded the publication of, On History, but in researching and writing his own work, Morgan anticipated Oakeshott's critique.
Oakeshott is hard to read and hard to understand. Morgan wrote beautifully, and exampled what pitch-perfect historical technique can accomplish.
To see how it ought to be done, get a copy of, Inventing the People: The Rise of Popular Sovereignty in England and America. Or try, American Slavery, American Freedom. Either work by Morgan will teach you the difference between skilled historical analysis, and the swill would-be originalists rely upon—and you won't even notice you are learning the difference as you read them.
Other than insisting that would-be historical analysis sounds good because it repeats what you expected (having heard it from people relying on present-minded context), what methods would you recommend?
As I wrote above, I think the monies at stake in Moore fit straightforwardly into the definition of income and hence are covered by the 16th Amendment, so there’s no need to address what kinds of non-income taxes are “direct” taxes in this case.
But the question will come up some day. And of course law professors have every right to opine on matters wholly outside the case that triggered their discussion, indeed in the absence of any triggering case at all.
I completely disagree with the argument that we can simply ignore a constitutional provision on grounds we don’t understand what it means. Virtually every phrase in the constitution is at least somewhat ambiguous. But uncertainty is part of life, and is no obstacle to judges doing their jobs. I think judges are as obligated to do their best and come up with an interpretation here as with any other part of the constitution.
California judges may have chosen not to interpret “stud horse poker” because gambling laws have come into disfavor on libertarian grounds, and they wanted an excuse not to enforce them. Similar things were done with various sexual morality laws in the latter half of the 20th century. Conservative states that chose the saving-construction route sometimes gave identical language very different interpretations, but so what? Judicial construction is part of the process of law. So California judges would have been fully entitled to declare that “stud” is simply a shortening of “stud horse,” making “stud horse poker” just a fancier name for “stud poker.” It’s an obvious, very plausible interpretation. (Whether distinguishing stud from other kinds of poler is a good idea or not is a question only Californians have any business answering. But if the legislature made the distinction, courts should make an effort to give it effect.)
In general, state judges have an obligation to avoid constitutional vagueness issues by putting a reasonable judicial gloss on ambiguous legislative terms. They could easily have done so in your example statute.
And this is all the more so with constitutional language. It is not open to the federal judiciary to declare the Constitution unconstitutional, whether for vagueness or otherwise. Any part that has not been repealed by an amendment MUST be interpreted. The 16th Amendment applies only to taxes on income. So it leaves the direct/non-direct distinction intact, and requiring interpretation, for taxes on anything that’s not income.
By the way, I raised this very issue in disagreeing with Chief Justice Roberts in the other recent Moore case, Moore v. Harper, the gerrymandering case. I said then that if the Constitution prohibits political gerrymandering, then the courts MUST come up with a standard to determine when gerrymandering occurs, and it’s no excuse to claim that it’s too hard a problem and we just don’t have any way of identifying it. Either the constitution doesn’t prohibit gerrymandering, or courts simply have to get off their duffs and do their best to come up with a workable classification.
It’s exactly the same here.
I’m inclined to agree that if a word or phrase appears in the constitution, the courts have an obligation to give it their best shot to figure out what it means. But since “gerrymandering” appears nowhere in the constitution, there’s no big rush.
But there are phrases like "a republican form of government" that are so vague that a wise judge should not attempt to narrow it down too much.
A judicial opinion should comport both with "the letter and spirit of the constitution" -- interesting.
That might come up in other matters, as it did during the tenures of Presidents A. Jackson, A. Lincoln, and A. Johnson. The oath taken by a President grants him (like a king) some rights which are during the President's tenure subject to review only by the giver (God, which has the power to review Presidential action through death inflicted naturally or otherwise) and by Congress (which has the power to remove a President). For example, a President who is an insurrectionist can die, be killed, or be removed from office by Congress. Presidents (and more specifically Commanders-In-Chief) exist in part to take immediate action when Congress cannot and therefore must have a degree of discretion subject to review by only the ultimate of authorities. What elements of the Constitution permits any Court to review and characterize the Presidential actions of a former President (that is, as opposed to the actions of the Presidency)? Wouldn't such review introduce a host of undesired effects, particularly when domestic enemies to the Constitution are involved?
One of the major arguments for taxing unrealized capital gains is that billionaires will borrow on their holdings instead of selling them, and incurring a tax liability.
Simply put a transaction tax on loans that are secured by securities, whether they are public or not. Pledging securities as collateral will be spelled out in the loan agreement, and you just put a transaction tax on the loan proceeds, and it leaves the eventual realized gain fully taxable. And you can structure the tax so it doesn't impact margin loans because such loans are not usually disbursed, the stocks purchased are still held by he brokerage.
kaz - a similar provision applies when securing a loan with your IRA as collateral.
However, the difference with loans secured with securities, is that the securities are not sold ( or deemed sold) until the collateral is used to satisfy the debt.
Basic rule in taxation is that income is not earned until the transaction is completed or when title transfers. The IRA / loan provision is one of the few exceptions.
Of course the securities aren't sold so no capital gains tax accrues.
But there is no reason there can't be a transaction tax on a loan when it is funded.