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Second Amendment Roundup: Concessions by the Government in the Rahimi Oral Argument
Misdemeanants don’t fall within the “not law-abiding” category.
In the November 7 oral argument in U.S. v. Rahimi, the government conceded the fundamental difference between felonies and misdemeanors, which criminal defense and pro-gun attorneys will find useful. Also, direct references were made by some Justices to the issue of non-violent felons who are not dangerous. And on the separate state-law issue of whether administrative officials may have discretion to deny the right to bear arms, the government conceded that they do not.
Recall that under N.Y. State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n v. Bruen, a person who is among "the people" has Second Amendment rights, and conduct covered by the plain text of that Amendment is presumptively protected unless the state can satisfy its burden (yes, it's the government's burden) to demonstrate that the current gun control regulation is similar to valid historical analogue laws. In Rahimi, the issue is whether any Founding-era analogue laws exist to justify the federal gun ban against persons under a domestic violence restraining order (DVRO).
To uphold the ban, the government relies on laws that punished affrays, including the brandishing of weapons to terrify others, and laws that required persons who did so to find sureties to keep the peace. Such laws are not "historical twins" to today's DVRO laws but are argued to be close enough.
A significant concession arising in the arguments would have jumped out at any member of the criminal defense bar, although it was not on the exact issue before the Court. The United States had argued in its briefs that persons who are not "law-abiding, responsible citizens" may be disarmed. Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar began her argument by saying that not being "law-abiding" means having "committed serious crimes defined by the felony-level punishment that can attach to those crimes." Not being "responsible" "applies to those whose possession of firearms would pose an unusual danger."
Chief Justice Roberts asked whether a person who drives 30 in a 25 mile-an-hour zone is not "law-abiding." The response was that the term does not include a "misdemeanor or minor criminal conduct under state law," but only "serious crimes." Prelogar agreed that she was making a "misdemeanor/felony distinction," and that Rahimi did not have a "criminal record that would justify disarmament on that basis," but he was in the category of being a person who is not "responsible."
Roberts shot back: "Responsibility is a very broad concept. I mean, not taking your recycling to the curb on Thursdays." She replied that not being responsible means being "dangerous."
The gun ban on persons subject to a DVRO is in 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8). The very next provision, subparagraph (g)(9), bans gun possession by any person "who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence." Persons challenging the validity of that ban are sure to use Prelogar's concession that one must be a convicted felon to be not "law-abiding." Will the government then argue that such misdemeanants are under the "not responsible, dangerous" category? That seems to be what's left, but by definition a misdemeanor is not a serious crime.
And we are to assume that such misdemeanants are dangerous for life? That's the result, because civil rights are not taken away for a misdemeanor conviction, and hence cannot be restored, which is the requirement for restoration of gun rights under federal law. Only a felon can have civil rights taken away, and thus only a felon can have civil rights restored. That's how the courts have construed the relevant provisions, 18 U.S.C. §§ 921(a)(33)(B)(ii) and 922(g)(9).
A related issue that may have been obscure to many was Justice Amy Coney Barrett's statement: "But you're trying to save, like, the range issue. So you're not applying dangerousness to the crimes?" The term "range" should have been transcribed "Range," as it referred to the pending cert petition in Range v. Garland. In that case, the Third Circuit held the felon gun ban to be invalid as applied to a person who is not dangerous and who had been convicted of a non-violent crime.
Justice Barrett's remark stemmed from the government's argument that persons who are not "law-abiding and responsible" may be disarmed. As noted, Prelogar maintained that persons who are not law-abiding are those who have been convicted of serious offenses with "felony-level punishment," and those who are not responsible are "those whose possession of firearms would present a danger to themselves or others, but they don't have to be intentionally dangerous."
Justice Barrett asked why not just say "dangerousness" (instead of "not responsible"), pointing to surety and affray laws showing that "the legislature can make judgments to disarm people consistently with the Second Amendment based on dangerousness." Prelogar responded, "We don't think dangerousness is the standard with law-abiding, and I recognize you might have some different views on that, Justice Barrett."
That referred to then-Judge Barrett's dissent in Kanter v. Barr (7th Cir. 2019), in which she favored an as-applied challenge regarding non-violent felons who are not dangerous. In Kanter, and now in Range, the government argues that the ban on felons-in-possession of firearms is valid no matter how harmless the crime or how non-violent the convicted person may be. Since no limit exists to what a legislature may call a felony, no limit would exist on infringements on Second Amendment rights. That's what prompted Barrett to make the above comment to Prelogar about "trying to save … the [R]ange issue."
There was a good bit of discussion in the Rahimi argument on facial versus as-applied challenges. Justice Samuel Alito asked if it would be a defense to a federal prosecution under § 922(g)(8) if a state DVRO law does not require any finding of dangerousness. Prelogar said that no "as-applied challenges" could be made to federal charges.
Gorsuch asked about two potential as-applied challenges. What if a DVRO has no time limit and is "a lifetime ban"? That of course is an issue in the pending Range case. (It's also an issue regarding misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence.) Also, what if "someone's invaded their home and they use … a gun that they have illegally in self-defense," invoking the "historical common-law defenses of necessity and duress." No need to resolve those issues here, responded Prelogar.
Matthew Wright, Assistant Public Defender for the Northern District of Texas and counsel for Rahimi, began his argument by responding to Justice Gorsuch's question, noting that the courts don't consider self-defense, necessity, or duress in a dire emergency as defenses for the fleeting possession of a firearm by a prohibited person. Gorsuch repeated that the above defenses are not relevant in a facial challenge, but would be in an as-applied challenge.
Some discussion ensued about whether lack of due process in the state DVRO proceeding would be a defense to the federal charge, but several Justices said that the due process argument was not raised and is waived. Wright noted that the state-law standard of proof should at least be clear and convincing evidence.
Although Rahimi brought only a facial challenge, Justice Alito asked whether a restraining order against a man who threatened to shoot members of his family would be constitutional. Wright responded that "courts have always had broad power against the people who are brought before them."
Chief Justice Roberts asked, "you don't have any doubt that your client's a dangerous person, do you?" Wright responded that it depends on the meaning of "dangerous." Reflecting Rahimi's own actions, Roberts replied: "Well, it means someone who's shooting … at people. That's a good start." Laughter filled the courtroom.
Not boding well for Wright's facial challenge based on lack of historical analogues was Justice Barrett's interjection that "I'm so confused," after which Justice Kagan piled on, "you're running away from your argument … because the implications of your argument are just so untenable." But Wright stood his ground, correctly noting that courts have always had the power to make findings and punish wrongdoers, but that no historical analogues exist for banning firearms in the home based on "dangerousness."
Another issue arose that was not posed here, but is a brewing issue under the laws of certain states that passed more stringent legislation in the wake of Bruen. Justice Thomas was concerned with the distinction between being convicted of a crime and issuance of a protective order, where a "civil court is making the determination." Also, while the law at issue involves a judicial determination, how about if an administrative decision is the procedure used to deny arms to a person? (That's the state law issue, as explained below.) Prelogar responded that "it would be far more difficult to defend an executive branch or an administrative determination because of a separate Second Amendment principle that guards against granting executive officials too much discretion to decide who cannot have firearms."
She added that "there was some history about that in England," apparently referring to her argument in the Brief for the United States citing as a historical analogue the power under the Militia Act of 1662 of the Lord Lieutenants to disarm "dangerous" persons. But that was an oppressive law under Charles II, from which the government now retreated. As Prelogar said, "in the American legal tradition, these principles have been deployed through legislative judgments or through express judicial findings of dangerousness. So I don't think that we could point to the same history and tradition of giving executive branch officials that discretion."
As Justice Alito further probed, how about a permit requirement similar to what Bruen invalidated that "requires an applicant to show that he or she is sufficiently responsible"? If "implemented through a system of executive discretion," Prelogar responded, principles would "come into play that would guard against that kind of licensing regime."
Thank you for that, General Prelogar. It just so happens that New York's Concealed Carry Improvement [sic] Act grants the licensing officer discretion to decide if the applicant is "of good moral character," defined as "having the essential character, temperament and judgement necessary to be entrusted with a weapon and to use it only in a manner that does not endanger oneself or others." Similar laws were enacted in other states to flout the Bruen decision.
In Antonyuk v. Hochul, U.S. District Judge Glenn Suddaby held New York's requirement violative of the Second Amendment because it conferred "open-ended discretion on licensing officers to deny licenses to applicants based on undefined assessments," failure to limit consideration to "prior conduct" indicating likelihood of misuse of a weapon, and "failure to expressly remind the licensing officer to make an exception for actions taken in self-defense." The issue is pending before the Second Circuit.
And in Srour v. City of New York, Judge John P. Cronan of the Southern District of New York rendered summary judgment in favor of an applicant for a license to possess firearms who had been denied for supposed inadequate "good moral character." As he wrote, "Presumably, there were plenty of people at the time of our country's Founding who were considered to lack good moral character, but were not necessarily dangerous…." See my post NYC's "Good Moral Character" Requirement Void.
Bottom line: Given Prelogar's concession, the United States should be unlikely to provide any amicus support for such state laws, or defend proposed federal legislation with comparable provisions.
If the Court upholds the ban in Rahimi, look for a narrow decision reaffirming the text-history test, with the liberal Justices concurring to uphold the law but casting doubt on text-history. The next chapter in the saga will be as-applied challenges, which the Rahimi arguments seem to imply will have success.
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So Trump, if he is not convicted of a violent felony, could go back to Palmetto State Armory and buy a Trump tribute pistol.
Trump isn't even being charged with a "violent felony" dumbass.
Trump only gets personally violent if you're a cheeseburger. Otherwise, he has employees with serious lapses in ethical limitations for the stuff that requires real effort.
Yes what a huge win for you guys this is.
A bigger win would be for you and your butt pirate friends to be chemically castrated.
Yes, Mr Roper, I'll celebrate a win for the law.
Remember that thought when better Americans arrange a better Supreme Court (fewer ethical blights, fewer clingers, more resemblance to modern, successful, reasoning, and educated America).
Well we all got 3 felonies a day racked up, so I'm not sure the distinction matters much.
I'm just glad so far they've been too busy to actually prosecute me for any of my daily felonies.
What felonies do you think you’ve committed?
No one can reasonably know. Even in 1990, there were over 300,000 federal crimes, many defined by bureaucrats. That number has increased since then.
Maybe he circumvented the region code on a DVD. I know I've committed that felony from time to time.
"What's a DVD?"
—A Generation Zer, probably.
Blu ray also has region codes, and circumventing them is a criminal violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
What about unauthorized access to a computer? Arguably, anyone who has ever connected to a guest wifi if not a current customer of that place has committed a felony
My go-to used to be honest services fraud.
These days it's appropriating rock and mineral samples from public lands.
Yeah, I do that every time I go hiking.
NPS Organic Act, 54 USC. § 100101
I took that tag off my mattress.
You're the guy who rips the tags off of pillows and mattresses before they're sold aren't you??!?!??
🙂
Has this Lautenberg Amendment precent the shooting death of Joseph Arthur Swift?
Or Jamiel Andrew Shaw?
There is no reason to take seriously any of the supposed originalism featured in Bruen. It is a pickers’ and choosers’ ruling, arbitrarily citing supposed historical evidence which (incompetent) historical analysis insists supports gun rights. But it equally arbitrarily excludes from American history and tradition more-relevant evidence which shows disarmament for civil dangerousness as government policy.
The Antinomian Controversy among the Puritans in the 1630s is regarded among historians as one of the most influential occurrences in American history. Effects of that upheaval on religious freedom, expressive freedom, rights of assembly, and other important aspects of American political culture can be traced right through history down to the present. It was an enormously important event, and has long received deserved attention among historians as a formative event for American history and tradition.
Those were events which famously resulted in Anne Hutchinson’s banishment, and her departure to Rhode Island. Other major figures were also embroiled, either as Hutchinson supporters, or as influential figures who happened to cherish notions judged anathema on same bases as the judgments made against Hutchinson.
A feature of that controversy relevant to Bruen was a mass order of disarmament for alleged Antinomians who had signed a petition in favor of the Reverend John Wheelwright, a supporter of Hutchinson. He and many others were not only disarmed, but banished from the Massachusetts Bay colony. Others similarly charged saved their access to arms by recanting their advocacy.
It takes an illegitimate decision to attract in support of gun rights citations to events which reach back to the 17th century or even earlier, and which refer only to English experience—experience which those doing the citing ignorantly misinterpret. And then to leave out exactly on-point events from Massachusetts which happened at a time similarly remote from the present, but which proved more broadly influential in this nation.
Bruen is one of the worst-reasoned decisions ever from the Supreme Court. At the first opportunity to do it, Bruen should be overturned as egregiously wrong.
It is important to get Bruen off the books not only because what it purports to do about guns is outrageous, but also because while Bruen stands it creates danger that upcoming decisions might imitate its incoherent use of history and tradition.
Claims of would-be originalists are too often methodologically suspect. That problem can only be made worse by leaving Bruen to stand as the attractive nuisance of an illegitimately-reasoned precedent that it is certain to become.
Broken record.
You are roughly a century and a half early. The relevant time period is roughly 1790, and not 1630. Why? Because, for one thing, it was before Locke, et Al, and their theory of Natural Rights, that figured so strongly in the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights, but instead during a period of religious fundamentalism.
Bruce Hayden, tell that to the gun nuts and courts citing 17th century and earlier supposed historical evidence, from all over the world. The whole problem with Bruen is Thomas picking and choosing his history, and demanding that even historical scholars do the same.
You want to claim history and tradition to make your case? You've got to take it whole, or you are lying about the past. That's what Thomas did. He lied about the past. And then he demanded that everyone else lie likewise, to match their arguments to his. It's a disgrace, and you are demanding it be taken seriously.
Yes, if someone mendaciously ignores that much of the point of each of the English Civil War (1642-1651), Glorious Revolution (1688-1689), and American Revolution (1775-1783) was to establish and vindicate liberty in contradistinction to older encroachments, one can come up with lots of precedents for blatant violations of the rights codified by the Bill of Rights and incorporated by the 14th Amendment. Of course, preventing a future repeat of those violations was the whole point of adopting the Constitution and those amendments.
However, what he really seems to be missing is that the whole point of the originalist part of Bruen is an attempt on the part of the Court to create an escape hatch from the literal reading of “shall not be infringed”. Discredit restrictions based on analogy to restrictions allowed at the adoption/incorporation of the language, and you do not free the government to make any laws it likes; you seal the escape hatch, leaving the textual prohibition on all limits on keeping and bearing arms whatsoever.
I don't think he's missing that. I think he's reasoning that, if you weld shut that escape hatch, the result won't be "shall not infringe" being strictly enforced, it will be the judiciary giving up on enforcing the 2nd amendment at all.
DRM, the historical struggles you mention were not as you suppose fought over civil liberties. They were instead struggles to clarify and implement developing theories of sovereignty.
What you take to be be libertarian overtones were nothing of the kind. Development of that kind of thinking came centuries later. The historical context for the proclamations from the 17th century was a class-bound society in which the words you read were meant to bypass entirely the lives of the vast majority of the population.
That actual majority was judged too dangerous and unreliable to trust with any liberty at all, not even the liberty to choose at will where they would reside. The rule of law which governed that actual majority was entirely arbitrary. Whatever principles governed legal decisions were principles in favor of the small minority pre-judged to be fit for actual citizenship. The rest were governed by the whims of magistrates, and by the interests of the magistrate’s superiors.
It is important to note that even in America during the 18th century, that English legacy of class-bound governance exerted strong influence in some regions, especially in the South, but even in more thinly settled areas of New England. The notion of laws systematized and enforced uniformly developed slowly, and was far from complete anywhere in America during the 18th century.
No analogy from that situation survives translation into modern American context.
Your precedent is literally an act of political repression? The exact kind of thing the 2nd Amendment was designed to guard against?
Bubba Jones, as always, if you read history in context of present-minded norms, you bypass whatever insight historical exploration might deliver. John Winthrop and his allies during the Antinomian crisis were in their own minds at the farthest possible remove from being political oppressors. It was their actual belief that their colony was engaged in a project under covenant from God, who would punish them collectively if they failed in their responsibilities. Thus, to purge the Antinomians was at once a matter of religious responsibility, indispensable political management, and public safety—all dictated by fidelity to God’s will. Hutchinson’s declared belief that she received divine revelation directly was judged a blasphemy, which if tolerated would put everyone in the colony in danger of chastisement by God’s powers.
That is what someone attuned to history and tradition in actual context would conclude if he attempted to follow faithfully the edict from Thomas to analogize history to the present. It is also an example to show the futility of that edict from the Bruen Court. It is easy to see, obvious really, that between pre-modern Calvinism and modern secular society, the power to analogize accurately breaks down.
What is harder to see, but equally salient, is that the same kind of breakdown will attend attempts to analogize between the founding era and the present. For one thing, you cannot safely put aside founding era influence reaching back to the 1630s. Especially for older founders such as Franklin, Samuel Adams, and George Washington, those 17th century events would have remained vividly influential throughout their formative years, just as older Americans today remain under contextual influence from the Civil War era.
One thing non-historians tend to overlook, is that if you intend to interpret—or analogize—historical occurrences with today, the context you must account for in the thinking of historical figures under study lies entirely in their historical past, not in ours. That means the relevant time period for founding era context begins in the late 16th century, and ends prior to, for instance, the ratification of the 2nd Amendment. Whatever context had been laid down relevant to that ratification was already complete before ratification happened.
But when you look to the 2A as a guard against political oppression, you do so by reliance on post-2A political context—which lay in the unknowable future of the ratifiers, and had no influence on them. So that kills the historical analogy Clarence Thomas foolishly demanded that you construct.
Seems to me that you've found answers to the question, "Have there ever been . . ." -- but this is not a history symposium.
In contrast, the Conservatives want to understand, at the time the people embraced "shall not be infringed," what was the nature of the exceptions that were understood to be acceptable.
You don't like Thomas' picking-and-choosing? Do you mean that finding a one-horse town that banned Open Carry on the streets would be enough to allow any city to do the same? Oh, nevermind, you don't have to answer that.
Anyway, that's what I think.
Goldstein, a person forthrightly interested in what happened in the past would seek to discover which exceptions were acceptable by looking for the kinds of exceptions which actually occurred. And those were commonplace. Which is why Thomas in Bruen took such excruciating pains to rule them out of consideration.
Note also that to denigrate the experience of smaller towns during an era of overwhelmingly rural settlement is not a method to construct accurate analogies. Those smaller places were nevertheless the entrepôts of their era.
At the time of the founding, Rhode Island was the most urbanized state in the nation. Hundreds of places you have never heard of now have populations greater than what Boston had then.
You do not need to go any further than the Second Amendment itself to find "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." The last four words of the amendment aren't any more important than the first 13.
Stephen Lathrop 9 hours ago (edited)- And then to leave out exactly on-point events from Massachusetts which happened at a time similarly remote from the present, but which proved more broadly influential in this nation.
Lathrop – you mean on point events in massachusetts such the british confiscation of guns in 1775
. Perhaps the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed stems from the british attempt to confiscate guns.
A full and complete analysis of history requires a full and complete analysis of history.
Joe_dallas, that is indeed history salient for this discussion. And it is entirely consistent with interpretation that the Militia Clause expressed accurately the federal purpose of the 2A. Not coincidentally, Massachusetts interpreters of the 2A tend to insist on fully empowering the Militia Clause to this day. Others, I think including you, disagree.
But thank you for bringing it up to illustrate my point. History is always a tangle, and only broad inclusivity for relevant evidence offers reasonable hope to untie at least some of the knots. Thomas in Bruen was egregiously wrong to insist that everyone be required legally to gerrymander evidence of history and tradition.
You "miss" the lynchpin of Bruen, it's text as informed by tradition and history.
But you don't approve of the text.
The text clearly would not allow expulsions and disarmament based on a religious schism. And of course illustrates the reason the first and second amendments were promulgated.
Your vision of judicial history inquiries would subject us perpetually to the same outrages of our rights the Constitution was implemented and amended to prevent.
Kazinski, your vision of judicially-relevant history (note that I do not say, “judicial history,” which is a different subject) is to make it up, and to insist on doing that with an eye to getting decisions to come out where you want them to. That is the method Thomas used, of course, so you are at least for now aligned with the Supreme Court. Congratulations.
The part you don’t get, and I don’t hold out much hope for you, is that to be faithful to a demand to analogize historical examples to the present would rule out your present-minded interpretation of the Antinomian crisis. You cannot build an accurate historical analogy by smuggling into the past your present-minded context for the term, “religious schism.”
That would have baffled everyone involved at the time, on both sides of the controversy. Your interpretation tacitly supposes a premise of equality, or at least a custom of tolerance, among differing religious doctrines. That had nothing to do with pre-modern Calvinism as practiced by Boston Puritans. You might with equal possibility of acceptance have tried to sell them the notion that they should all take up Catholicism. In either case, they would reply that God commanded otherwise. And that to defy God’s commandment was, among other things, to flout public safety, lest everyone be chastised by God’s ensuing wrath.
That, by the way, would at least provide superficial basis to analogize between then and now. We too debate on the basis of public safety the wisdom of tolerating personal arms. But I don’t advise trying to get away with that one either. To legitimately analogize the distant past to the present in service of a present-minded policy objective is a near-impossibility. To decree doing that be a condition for acceptance of a legal critique is ignorant folly.
There is no reason to take seriously any of the supposed originalism featured in Bruen.
We'll just have to defer to your vast experience in not being taken seriously.
"Bottom line: Given Prelogar's concession, the United States should be unlikely to provide any amicus support for such state laws, or defend proposed federal legislation with comparable provisions."
A curious way to formulate this, since there are existing comparable federal laws. Lautenberg amendment, anyone?
Which didn't just strip 2nd amendment rights from those convicted of domestic violence misdemeanors going forward, but reached back and stripped them of people PREVIOUSLY convicted.
That's right, you could have gone to court over such a charge, and plead guilty only because the fine you'd be facing was less than the cost of hiring a lawyer, and years later lost a basic civil liberty on that basis.
IIRC, the Lautenberg amendment was only upheld at the time on the basis that nobody was being deprived of a right, because gun ownership was merely a privilege....
The Supreme Court upheld a broad reading of the Lautenberg amendment even after McDonald v. Chicago by a 6-2 decision in Voisine v. United States (2016), with Justices Thomas and Sotomayor dissenting as to whether recklessness includes a "use" of force that would trigger 28 U.S. Code §921(a)(33)(A)(ii).
Sounds to me like they weren't contesting the federal law itself, but only whether the state law they were convicted under qualified to trigger it. Whether the federal law itself was constitutional wasn't a central issue in the case.
It's hardly shocking that a decision authored by Kagan gave the 2nd amendment short shrift. Thomas in the dissent said, "We treat no other constitutional right so cavalierly."
With Bruen, the Court apparently decided to stop treating the 2nd amendment cavalierly. Only time will tell if they were serious.
Bruen's test is mushy enough to be all things to all people. But by all accounts from Court watchers smarter than me your maximalist view will be disappointed.
The main question seems to be how they'll do so while keeping Bruen an opacity the various conservatives on the Court can support. (Meanwhile appeals courts do the hard slow work of turning mush into doctrine).
Similar to your anger that 14A Section 3 doesn't require a criminal finding, this too is reading a lot into the text that isn't there. I do think there is an original practice case to be made, but under these facts that becomes more an indictment of that particular retrograde type of originalism than a legal reality.
I am absolutely confident that MY maximalist view will be disappointed, I'd stake my life on it. We are decades away from restoring the 2nd amendment even to the rights that prevailed over most of the country when I was a child, let alone when my dad was a child. I have to be content that we're at least moving in the right direction.
The somewhat wishy washy view the Court adopted in Bruen? Not so sure of that. They're under tremendous pressure to water it down to the point where almost no gun laws would be invalidated, but they may yet resist that pressure.
It would certainly be easy enough to disappoint Rahimi while advancing 2nd amendment rights; They'd merely have to note that he pled guilty, after all.
Bruen is already watered down, you just have a habit of filling in blanks as you see fit so it looks fine to you.
I’m all for leaving it to lower courts to fill in the specific implementation, but Bruen doesn’t give sufficient guidance on even a direction to head in. Heller doesn’t do much, but it does do that. 'Go forth and do originalism' is fun and all, but not legally useful.
And I say this as someone who thinks there is an individual right (though I'm fine with registration unlike most who use speculation to call that infringement).
I think, as with other Constitutional rights, it will be best implemented once it's explicated to the extent our other rights have been.
As a legal right, the 2A was never as muscular as you seem to think; at least as caselaw has it. You’re taking some memory of what you could do and assuming that’s the outer boundary that the government could legislate. You can’t make that assumption.
There’s plenty of pressure on both sides of the gun issue. Pretty nuts to think the pressure only goes one way here.
Finally, given the facial challenge to the law, the Court can’t just note Rahimi plead guilty; they can’t tailor the remedy like that. That would be legislating from the bench, after all.
It's been "watered down" by the lower courts, AKA "massive resistance". Not so much by the Supreme court. It is yet to be seen whether the Court will stand by its reasoning in Bruen.
"As a legal right, the 2A was never as muscular as you seem to think; at least as caselaw has it."
Well, yeah. The federal government had no particular interest in violating this particular right until the 20th century, after all, and thanks to the Slaughterhouse Court, the states didn't have to care about it until McDonald.
So gun owners cared about it, but the courts generally ignored it.
When I refer to the level of gun rights prevailing when I was a child, or my father was, I'm not referring to judicial enforcement of the rights, so much as legislative non-infringement. The vast edifice of modern gun control you're used to was mostly erected in the middle decades of the 20th century, and I was an adult before federal gun control got very far beyond making machine guns expensive.
I don't think you really grasp how shallow the history of modern gun laws really is.
No, it's not lower courts. Bruen is mush, and lower courts being all over the place flows from that decision. As I said, ‘go forth and do originalism’ is fun and all, but not legally useful.
Massive resistance to Brett's personal take on the 2A and this one decision is not actually a big deal.
Your inability to accept the law as an imperfect human endeavor makes you demand massive reforms that are in no way a worth the transition cost.
And, you're still confusing the legal regime with the contours of the right. Just because those laws weren't on the books doesn't mean they couldn't have been.
The pre-WW2 era is not the bastion of muscular rights discourse you seem to believe.
Explain exactly how the Supreme court has backed down from Bruen, when they've yet to rule on a post-Bruen case.
It's absolutely the lower courts in some circuits refusing to apply Bruen. If this goes on long enough without the Court slapping them down, maybe we can say that the Court has abandoned Bruen. But it's too early for that conclusion.
"And, you’re still confusing the legal regime with the contours of the right. Just because those laws weren’t on the books doesn’t mean they couldn’t have been."
"We totes could have been violating your rights back then if we'd wanted to, so you're just imagining that we weren't!" Your idea of "reasoning" seems a bit weird at times.
When I was a child, you could still buy firearms mail order, without even an age check, forget background check. I'm not imagining that.
You're just having trouble accepting that the world was very different from what you're used to, and not so very long ago.
You set forth a wild scenario, wherein the Court set out a really strong 2A decision, but all the lower courts are doing massive resistance, which the Court is cool with. And not many people talk about this massive resistance, including the 2A advocates in the VC.
Or, your take isn't 100% what everyone else sees, and lower courts are groping to figure out the contours of a muddy decision.
And for the third time, *something being legal doesn't mean there must be a right preventing legislation making it illegal.*
I have no trouble accepting the world was different in the past, who would have trouble with that??
You're just being really thickheaded about an easy distinction between rights and the mere absence of laws.
I'm not setting out a wild scenario. That's exactly what took place: The Court issued a very strong, (But well short of 'maximalist'.) ruling in Bruen. Some of the circuits are faithfully following it, some are in open rebellion against it.
"which the Court is cool with."
It's yet to be seen whether or not they're cool with the rebellion. Dude, Bruen was decided barely more than a year ago! There hasn't been TIME to find out whether or not the Court is going to stand behind it, or tolerate open defiance.
Personally, I expect them to split the difference to some extent. Thomas' decision was more principled than a majority of the court are ready to back to the hilt. But, who knows, Bruen was 6-3, maybe 5 of the majority really are ticked enough to make a principled stand.
"and lower courts are groping to figure out the contours of a muddy decision."
There isn't enough mud in the world to pretend some of the lower court decisions were honest attempts to apply Bruen.
"And for the third time, *something being legal doesn’t mean there must be a right preventing legislation making it illegal.*"
That's not what I'm saying, are you dense or something?
I'm saying that there was a right in practice, not in formal law.
I mean, obviously I do think there's a right in law, but all I've been saying here is that, as you have a legal right to do anything that's not illegal, the absence of a law against doing something IS a 'right' of sorts. If it goes on long enough, it's even got a good case as a 9th amendment right.
We're currently battling to get the law restored to the former de facto extent of the right in question, restore the legality of stuff we used to be able to do. And get enough judicial recognition to backstop that restoration of the previous practical extent of the right.
We would absolutely know by now if the Court was cool with a lower court rebellion. Rebellion? Did anyone even call massive resistance a rebellion? Even if you think such, drama like that does you no favors.
There is no sign of such, in cert grants, in summary reversals, on the shadow docket, or in an editorial by Alito.
A 5-4 decision is hardly going to be a signal of lower court rebellion. Though I'm sure you'll take it as such.
Bruen is not strong, it is mush (which I think you kinda know with your yearning for Thomas' opinion). You've decided to interpret it on behalf of the Court, all lower courts, and everyone else in America as saying vastly more than it does. And you're pissed that not everyone agrees with you.
"which I think you kinda know with your yearning for Thomas’ opinion"
Thomas' opinion WAS the majority opinion for Bruen, did you somehow miss that fact? A rather marked difference from Voisine, where he was writing a dissent.
.
A "right in practice" isn't a thing, except as a tautology, and doesn’t do any of the work you want it to do.
You are repeatedly arguing that (1) if they didn't ban X at the applicable time (whether 1789 or 1868), (2) then this means that they agreed that they couldn't have banned X then, (3) so they can't ban it now.
But you treat #2 as a step to yadayadayada over, rather than explicitly needing to state and establish it.
"You are repeatedly arguing that (1) if they didn’t ban X at the applicable time (whether 1789 or 1868), (2) then this means that they agreed that they couldn’t have banned X then, (3) so they can’t ban it now."
No, I'm not arguing that, at least not at the moment, though the Court did decide that.
I'm saying,
1) In the not too distant past, (A lot of people still alive to remember...) a great many things gun related that are currently heavily regulated or illegal were subject to no legal restrictions, especially at the federal level.
2) As you have a right to do what is legal, this meant that for SOME value of "right", we at that time had a right to do those things.
3) I aspire to rolling back those restrictions, restoring those informal rights, and raising them to the level of formally recognized judicially enforceable rights.
4) I recognize that, the 9th amendment being a dead letter, the fact that people have always been permitted to do something doesn't amount to a (legally cognizable) admission by government that they're legally entitled to do it. Maybe we can tackle that problem next...
you have a right to do what is legal
This is a tautological definition of right, and is not a thing.
formally recognized judicially enforceable rights
Otherwise known as 'rights.'
the 9th amendment being a dead letter
It is not. You *want* it to be, with your insistence that the 9th applies only to rights as recognized in the 1780s.
Identify one right upheld by the Court on the basis of the 9th amendment, in living memory. Not where it was mentioned, where it mattered.
It's a dead letter, as much as the 10th.
Right to privacy and travel cases both cite the 9A.
Does it matter? Yes – citing a Constitutional Amendment is not dicta.
Reading Griswold SDP alone doesn’t support the finding – the 9A is required. But it’s a Douglas opinion so formal doctrine is not going to come easy. There is a 9A concurrence IIRC that a lot of the gay marriage litigation cited.
I didn't really study up on the 10th in law school, but I was a research Fellow on gay marriage and the 9th was in active use in appellate constitutional litigation.
What was the 16th/17th century law (hamilton?, hamington? ) that the gun control advocates used to claim that England restricted gun rights. ie to the effect that an individual could not carry arms. The law was more to the effect that a person could not carry arms and display the arms in a threateningly manner.
Its mentioned in Halbrooks book
The anti-gunners think that, because they (profess to) find the very thought of somebody bearing an arm threatening, non-threatening bearing and display of arms is an empty set that can be ignored.
Lathrop, IIRC, has been pretty explicit about that, in attacking the bearing of arms during, for instance, political rallies.
Brett - I could be mistaken, but there was a law passed in England as I recall that the provided something to the effect that " a person could not carry arms around town "" in a threatening manner" . The gun control advocates have used that law as an example of the historical documentation of restricting gun rights (while ignoring the caveat that it was limited to threatening manner)
My sole question is the name of that law. Its mentioned in the first or second chapter of Halbrooks book. While I have a copy of the book, I dont have access to it at the office.
Ah. This is the best I can do, my copy is at home, too.
Sir John Knight's Case
"An information was exhibited against him by the Attorney General, upon the statute of 2 Edw. 3, c. 3, which prohibits "all persons from coming with force and arms before the King's Justices, &c., and from going or riding armed in affray of peace, on pain to forfeit his armour, and suffer imprisonment at the King's pleasure." This statute is confirmed by that of 20 Rich. 2, c. 1, with an addition of a further punishment, which is to make a fine to the King.
The information sets forth, that the defendant did walk about the streets armed with guns, and that he went into the church of St. Michael, in Bristol, in the time of divine service, with a gun, to terrify the King's subjects, contra formam statuti.
This case was tried at the Bar, and the defendant was acquitted.
The Chief Justice said, that the meaning of the statute of 2 Edw. 3, c. 3, was to punish people who go armed to terrify the King's subjects. It is likewise a great offence at the common law, as if the King were not able or willing to protect his subjects; and therefore this Act is but an affirmance of that law; and it having appointed a penalty, this Court can inflict no other punishment than what is therein directed."
Brett - thanks - that similar to what I recall, though your reference was to a court case, while my recollection was to a specific law (nottingham? nottington?)
I will look when I get home.
My recollection of the law was that the history of the law would support the disarming of Rahimi (subject of course to the issue of some form of due process).
While at the same time confirming / supporting the concept of the individual right, including self defense
To be specific, the law in question prohibited going about with a gun in a threatening manner. It didn't involve prohibiting simple ownership, and was inapplicable to carrying guns peacefully, which is why the guy in this case was acquitted: He hadn't done anything threatening with the gun he was carrying.
It didn't disarm you, it fined you for the behavior.
There's no question Rahimi violated the terms of this ancient statute, because he reportedly was in the habit of behaving in a threatening manner with his guns. But his behavior violated plenty of current criminal laws, which could have resulted in his being disarmed upon conviction.
If they'd deigned to prosecute him, I mean, rather than just telling him to cut it out.
This is truly pathetic. Halbrook is like the Black Knight in the Monty Python movie. His dumb, woman-killing position was destroyed by the Supreme Court in oral argument, and he's polluting the Internet with posts about how "really I'm winning I swear".
What a buffoon.
Also this statement is just evil:
And we are to assume that such misdemeanants are dangerous for life?
Halbrook needs to stop buying calendars with girls with AK-47's for his personal pleasure, and get to know some actual victims of domestic violence and the terror they live with. He's just awful.
Matthew Wright, Assistant Public Defender for the Northern District of Texas and counsel for Rahimi
And look how this misogynist jerk stacks the deck here. Wife beaters are just "misdemeanants", but Wright's full title has to be spelled out here.
Quite a rant you have going.
Maybe you should head to the range and let out some of your frustration on some steel.
Well, 'wife beaters' ARE just "midemeanants" if they only commit misdemeanors. What's controversial about calling a misdemeanant a misdemeanant?
You want to treat somebody like a felon, charge them with a felony and convict them. Why does that notion offend you?
The point is that he goes to damned far lengths to describe the title of a lawyer to give his right wing argument some liberal bona fides, but on the other hand views the people who beat up and terrorize women as nothing but misdemeanants. Because he doesn't give a crap about the terror that women face.
He's awful. Just an utter misogynist in love with his guns.
If you're charged with a misdemeanor, you're a "misdemeanant".
Look, I get that you're highly emotional about this. But your emoting really hard has nothing to do with the legal issues at hand. It just makes you look irrational.
If the prosecutor decides to charge somebody with misdemeanor domestic violence, rather than felony, that's the prosecutor deciding that it wasn't a particularly bad case, not Halbrook. The law has to have the ability to distinguish serious cases from not so serious cases, has to be able to distinguish between an angry shove and beating somebody to death with a shovel. They can't all be turned all the way up to 11!
I really don't get this obsession with the "rights" of the crook and the mugger and the carjacker and the gang member.
Kids are dying. Isn't their right to life more important than the imaginary rights of the crook and the mugger and the carjacker and the gang member?
The moment you deprive the guilty of their rights, everybody the government wants to deprive of their rights becomes "guilty", or at the least has to pay through the nose to jump through flaming hoops to prove that they're not, each time they want to exercise those rights you think you're only depriving the guilty of.
Yes, once you convict people in your mind why bother with a trial?
YES! You've figured out why Rahimi should win this one!
Because if the government wants to treat people like convicts, it should have to convict them.
He's not a convict. You're the one that insists on that criterion. Based on nothing in the Constitution, just vibes.
Sop Rahimi was forbidden from possessing a f=irearm even if he had not been convicted of any crime.
Meanwhile, people who killed multiple people due to an accident they caused while driving drunk may nevertheless possess automobiles.
Hmm.
Just vibes.
I really don’t get this obsession with the “rights” of the crook and the mugger and the carjacker and the gang member.
I'm sorry to hear that you either slept through all of your grade school civics classes, or they were just too difficult for you to understand.
Kids are dying. Isn’t their right to life more important than the imaginary rights of the crook and the mugger and the carjacker and the gang member?
"Imaginary" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.
And you're a misogynist homosexual in love with the loads of man cream that you let other men push into you.
I have no problem with someone who has actually committed physical domestic violence being evaluated to see if they are dangerous after they are found guilty. I have a real problem with the current definition of "domestic violence" and how it is applied. Many divorce attorneys will advise women to get a restraining order for "domestic violence" to better their position in a settlement negotiation. When I was in college a classmate of mine was a former police officer. During his divorce his Ex got a restraining order against him stating that he pulled his service weapon on her. Her claims were later proven false, but, because of the order he had to find a new career. The Police Force, the Police Union and the District Attorney reused to stand up for him. They also refused to charge his Ex because it might intimidate "real" victims from coming forward.
Esper – We have to deal with the constitution as written, not as you want it to be.
Halbrook is only pointing out actual historical facts. If there are actual errors in his presentation of the historical facts – then point to those specific errors.
Halbrook is doing no such thing.
Dilan Esper 23 mins ago
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"Halbrook is doing no such thing."
Dilan - denialist Esper
Far too many citations in his works to make that unfounded claim.
How is his position "woman-killing"?
It isn't. There's just something about 2A issues that turns Esper into an idiot.
I've argued before that a felony/misdemeanor distinction doesn't make a lot of sense. A violent/non-violent distinction makes far more sense (even if history and tradition isn't the best starting point for that analysis). Why should a state's classification of something as "felonious" have any bearing on the Constitutional right to bear arms? What's to stop a state from making every offense a felony, but only taking away firearm rights (or make felonies of other minor offenses more likely to have been committed by targeted groups so they can be disarmed)? It seems a uniform, Federal standard that does not depend on state law (even if it necessarily depends on application to specific state convictions) is necessary to make this determination.
Do you see any similarities with laws that take away the right to vote based on a felony? I agree that the violent part is more important here and we've seen how the "war on drugs" was used to suppress some minority voting in some states.
Then you get into the question of what is violent vs. non-violent. There will be some easy cases, but you get the problems with the ACCA residual clause cases where the Court could not determine what was violent vs. non-violent and threw out the whole law.
Plus, under Bruen where is the historical analogue that shows that a single violent act many years ago leads to lifetime disarmament? How many years is enough? How violent is too violent? What if it was a push or shove? Is DUI causing injury considered "violent"?
Putting aside history, I see nothing in the Second Amendment that allows a judge to make these calls.