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Second Amendment Roundup: Judge Ho 2.0
If the government must “square corners” to protect illegal aliens and convicted criminals, Constitutional protections for Americans deserve consistent application.
In his concurring opinion in the Fifth Circuit's decision in US v. Rahimi, Judge James Ho came out swinging. As he explained, "Those who commit violence, including domestic violence, shouldn't just be disarmed—they should be detained, prosecuted, convicted, and incarcerated." But the federal gun ban against persons subject to a domestic violence protection order relies on lenient civil procedures, not strict criminal procedures, and thus facially violates the Second Amendment.
Ten days after the Supreme Court heard oral argument in Rahimi, Judge Ho concurred in a case on a different issue, but built on his Rahimi concurrence to show the inherent need to follow criminal procedures when a person's liberty is at stake. In US v. Kersee, the Fifth Circuit ruled on November 17 that revocation of a probationer's supervised release entitles the person to a qualified right to confrontation of witnesses. While the Confrontation Clause is inapplicable to a supervised release revocation hearing, due process entitles the subject to confront and cross-examine adverse witnesses.
Jeffrey Kersee's girlfriend accused him of breaking her window, leading to him being charged with criminal mischief, and later accused him of crimes that were charged as aggravated robbery and family assault. After she recanted regarding the first charge and either asked for dismissal of or failed to show up for the latter two, all of the charges were dropped. The probation officer then filed the written statements behind these charges; Kersee filed an affidavit denying them. At the revocation hearing, the prosecutor told the court that he did not bring in the girlfriend to testify because it was likely that she was "going to lie." The court revoked Kersee's probation without allowing live testimony.
The revocation of Kersee's probation was thus based on conflicting hearsay. The girlfriend's recantation affidavit would have exonerated him in part. The government offered no evidence that women "in abusive relationships will change their mind out of fear or economic reasons." The Fifth Circuit thus reversed the probation revocation and remanded the case to allow an adversary hearing.
Concurring, Judge Ho recalled his concurrence in Rahimi basically saying that violent criminals should have the book thrown at them: "Violent criminals should be prosecuted, convicted, disarmed, and incarcerated." He wrote:
But we don't presume that citizens are dangerous criminals. We presume they're innocent. And to overcome that presumption, we require more than just notice and a hearing. We afford the accused with the assistance of counsel and a meaningful opportunity to present evidence and confront adverse witnesses. We impose a robust burden of proof on the government. And when in doubt, we err on the side of liberty.
In Kersee, the court granted relief because it is sensitive to constitutional rights, not because it is insensitive to domestic violence. That reminded Judge Ho of Rahimi:
So in Rahimi, we followed the Court's directives and conceptualized Bruen, not as a substantive right of dangerous criminals to run armed and free, but as a procedural protection for those subject to disarmament on suspicion of criminal activity. We applied the history and tradition test articulated in Bruen, and found that the only historical analogues relevant to Rahimi involved the use of the criminal justice system—not civil protective orders—to disarm dangerous criminals. . . . We concluded that, to survive Bruen, the use of civil protective orders to disarm citizens must presumably, and at a minimum, approximate the protections afforded to those accused of a crime.
According to Judge Ho, Kersee was granted relief for similar reasons as Rahimi. Both were suspected, but not convicted of, felonies. Rahimi's protective order was entered without counsel or a formal hearing. There was no meaningful presumption of innocence or robust burden of proof in either case. As seen in Kersee, sometimes domestic violence is alleged but then recanted. Reliable means must be used to determine how to resolve conflicting allegations in compliance with the Constitution and to inspire public confidence.
Judge Ho cites seven cases involving murder, armed career criminals, kidnaping and rape, and other violent crimes to support this statement: "The Supreme Court has repeatedly granted relief to dangerous criminals out of concern about the procedures used to determine their dangerousness. … In none of these cases did the Supreme Court decline to uphold constitutional safeguards just because the defendant was credibly accused of a dangerous crime."
So if we must hold our noses at the allegations against folks like Rahimi, the Court doesn't shy away from protecting the constitutional rights of persons who are far worse. And it would be a shame if that imperative is weakened just because the Second Amendment is at issue. As the Supreme Court has explained, the Second Amendment is not a second-class right.
Judge Ho ended his remarks: "If government must turn 'square corners' when it comes to the removal of illegal aliens, … surely it must do the same when it comes to the basic rights of our own citizens." That was a quote from Niz-Chavez v. Garland (2021), in which the Court held that an unlawful alien could not be removed because he received notice of his removal proceeding in two separate documents, rather than in one.
Judge Ho's concurrence in Kersee reads like a supplement to his concurrence in Rahimi. It should not go unnoticed. Indeed, Judge Ho's concurrence makes clear that the only plausible path for the Supreme Court to rule for the government in Rahimi is to emphasize that Rahimi agreed to the entry of an order finding him to be a threat of violence to an intimate partner, and he did so without objecting to the procedures available to him. Such a narrow ruling would leave for another day challenges by individuals who contested the question of their danger and the procedures used to determine the answer.
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I wonder. Has there ever been a federal judge more aptly named than Ho?
You're an idiot.
He’s an idiot.
Judge Ho is a bigot and partisan, polemical hack.
Which one is worse, in your judgment?
More than ever, Artie, I'm convinced that you are someone's spot-on parody of a certain kind of leftist.
You figure Judge Ho's intolerance and "own the libs" routine is popular with mainstream America.
I assume he is beloved (to the extent the knuckle-draggers know who he is) in can't-keep-up jurisdictions. But he is temporarily annoying culture war roadkill in modern, educated, successful America. Think of a twitching raccoon or half-flattened armadillo awaiting its demise in the passing lane.
Judge Ho is Taiwaneese and a POC. He is incapable of being a bigot. I didn't make your rules. I'm just pointing them out.
What this will do is address the Gideon Gap in protective orders.
What inevitably happens when a guy is served with a 209A is he calls the woman to ask her why she is doing this, and thus violates it. He then is facing criminal charges when he then tries to contest the order in a civil hearing, with the judge repeatedly warning him that anything he says will be used in the criminal trial.
Guns or not, what is really needed is a Gideon level of representation in contesting the civil motion. I think this is what everyone is missing -- IF you accorded him a criminal level of due process, THEN you could take his guns, but not with a civil hearing.
I'm hoping this is where SCOTUS will go, and that is a good thing.
It is not where SCOTUS will go with Rahimi, because it's not the argument Rahimi made.
You’ve been bitten by a fairly new bug in Reason‘s commenting system. If a blockquote tag begins a comment, it quotes the entire comment, regardless of where the closing blockquote tag is.
Can’t start with a space either. Put in some short sentence.
You can start with a non-breaking space, written " "
Is Rahimi the only case that SCOTUS will ever hear?
For all of eternity?
My thought is that this is the only possible resolution to the two conflicting arguments, and that *someone* will *eventually* raise it.
“Inevitably”? It’s not even what happened with the guy in this case!
Hallbrook is so pathetic and so desperate.
The Second Amendment permits the government to disarm wife beaters. SCOTUS is going to hold that, and it's not going to matter what Mr. Hallbrook OR Judge Ho thinks. And it isn't because Rahimi agreed to the protective order (although that is why he can't bring a due process challenge and Judge Ho is full of it). It's because the Second Amendment permits the disarmament of domestic abusers, because if it did not, women would die.
You believe only men are domestic abusers?
Of course the 2nd amendment allows states to disarm wife beaters.
After they're convicted. Until you do that they're not, legally, "wife beaters", they're just accused of being wife beaters.
This whole argument is abut the required level of due process, not whether you can disarm wife beaters, let alone somebody like Rahimi.
"This whole argument is abut [sic] the required level of due process, not whether you can disarm wife beaters, let alone somebody like Rahimi."
Uh, no. That is not what this argument is about at all. Rahimi is raising only a facial challenge to the applicable statute. (Whether he violated the statute is not at issue in light of his guilty plea.)
He is not raising any due process challenge regarding entry of the domestic violence order of protection. Nor could he, what with having agreed to entry of the order.
To paraphrase Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Brett is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.
Screw off, homosexual.
Happy Thanksgiving to all, including the bigots who operate and adore this blog.
Everyone should enjoy the best holiday.
Same user, different account.
After a short period of time, THAT GUY gets blocked by a critical mass of people. So he creates a new account. Of course, unable to actually change his posting style, he will inevitably end up getting blocked all over again, and the cycle continues.
I am sure that he derives something from it; what it is, it is hard to imagine given that I am not a bigoted moron who derives their sole sexual satisfaction in life from creating new accounts.
Hey- whatever gets you off, right?
If the steady stream of such content has been produced by one or two right-wing bigots using differing names, that would surprise me.
I perceive plenty of conservative racists, gay-bashers, misogynists, antisemites, immigrant-haters, transphobes, etc. at this blog, top to bottom. The inconsistency alone -- antisemites and Palestinian-haters, for example -- suggests variety among this blog's target audience of disaffected right-wingers.
"the Second Amendment permits the disarmament of domestic abusers, because if it did not, women would die."
What, exactly, has he been convicted of?
And if he *had* been convicted of something, he'd have been accorded his Gideon rights, which he wasn't.
Thank you for making my argument for me.
As an aside, "otherwise people will die" is the standard argument of gun grabbers everywhere -- why is it different here than from its other incarnations?
"Those who commit violence, including domestic violence, shouldn't just be disarmed—they should be detained, prosecuted, convicted, and incarcerated."
But, remember, it's not the "violence control movement". It's the "gun control movement". Never for a moment forget that. They don't CARE about violence.
They just care about taking guns away from people.
And only white people.
Don’t despair— Prof. Volokh has your back on this.
Brett's telepathy uncovers another bunch of villains! This time they look to be a majority on the Supreme Court!
Rahimi, deprived of guns and left on the street; THAT doesn't require telepathy.
Sure, although my sense is that they went with the gun charge instead of the underlying crimes is because they thought it was an easy slam dunk, and maybe had a sentence as long as they could hope for on the other charges. If Rahimi wins, the next Rahimi that comes along will get socked for the underlying crimes.
The issue is your ‘they’ is unassigned. Is it the lawyers? Legislators? Justices buying the argument?
Your statement is either anodyne or paranoid.
You're a fucking moron.
There are two separate questions. The first is whether the state can disarm people who have committed domestic violence. The second is what process is required before a state determination that a person committed domestic violence is adequate to effect disarmament.
As the oral argument made clear, the second question was not raised in Rahimi, and the Supreme Court will not decide it. The Supreme Court will answer only the first question in its Rahimi decision. It will leave the second open.
The problem is that 922(g)(8)(C)(ii) provides for the disarming of people who haven't committed domestic violence, without even a finding that they present a threat of doing so. A better defendant could've brought a much better case to SCOTUS.
It seems the divide on how people view this may come from how you order those questions.
As you have it, if the answer to the first is "yes, disarm" then a social goal has been established and the second question suffers from pressure to not "get in the way" of "protecting" victims of abuse. While a nobel goal, it isn't really a justification for discarding the presumption of innocence but it blinds people in their thinking because they have assumed an end point they are trying to reach.
But if you start with the second question, since you aren't talking about the emotional topic of guns/gun control yet, it seems easier to have a judicious examination of if someone is in fact guilty. And once you conclude they are or are not, the answer to the now second question of "can this person have a gun" is essentially already answered and without any real debate.
Judge Ho is that guy in the bar who is looking to start a fist fight, and everyone else is just kind of laughing at them.
I guess you really have to be something special to distinguish yourself as the driver of the clown car that is the 5th Circuit at this point.
I strongly object to this. Ho is not nearly the craziest guy on the 5th Circuit. It's stiff competition, but I think I'd go with Oldham.
I mean … it’s like arguing over the number of angels on a pin.
Would you agree that Ho is the most over-the-top crazy? Performatively crazy?
Every single time I read one of his rants… sorry, opinions, I think that he only opens his mouth to change feet.
As a now legal outsider, Ho's performativeness makes him pop as crazy, but did a bit of digging on Oldham:
"Oldham, for example, has gone on the record about the “illegitimacy” of the administrative state, and in May he was part of a decision holding that the SEC had acted unconstitutionally when it disciplined a hedge fund manager for fraud. "
...
“One of the reasons why the administrative state is enraging is not that you disagree with what the EPA does, although I do disagree with a lot of what it does,” he said at a Federalist Society forum in 2016. “That’s not the thing that makes it enraging. It’s the illegitimacy of it.”
...
Oldham wrote, in the study of German historicism by Woodrow Wilson, who “despised democracy” and “wanted administrative agencies to operate in a separate, anti-constitutional, and anti-democratic space.”
https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/fifth-circuit-court-appeals-roe-wade-scotus-supreme-abortion-rights/
Dang
(Article includes an interview with Blackman as an expert on nutty conservatives on the 5th: “Lower courts can exert upward pressure on the Supreme Court in ways that aren’t obvious,” [Blackman] said. “You can draw a straight line between Ho’s opinions on the unconstitutionality of abortion in 2018 and 2019 and Dobbs in 2022.”
Sounds like sound doctrine to me.
They should get rid of quaisi-judicial administrative proceedings, he SEC shouldn't have its own court system.
Yes some on the BC are nuts as well.
Oldham upheld the Texas social media anti-1st Amendment law in Netchoice v. Paxton. But it wasn't the fact that he upheld it that was nutty (just wrong) but the way he did so. One of Netchoice's arguments was that the 1A protected editorial decisions about what tweets to publish. Not only did he seem utterly incredulous about the notion that the 1A protects publishers against compelled speech, but he threw a tantrum that Netchoice cited all these binding Supreme Court precedents on the 1A rather than going back to first principles about what the 1A should mean.
By the time there’s a conviction, it’s too late.
Like most people advocating gun rights, Prof. Halbrook has no conception of the problems faced by victims of domestic violence. Possibly because he is working in a practically all male field.
"By the time there’s a conviction, it’s too late."
Hmmm... Couldn't this same argument be used to disarm people accused of other -- non-domestic-abuse-related -- misbehavior? If merely saying (as opposed to proving in court) "Ooh, he's a wife-beater! Let's take away his guns!" works, why not "Ooh, he's a racist!" or "Ooh, he's a domestic terrorist!", etc., etc.? You end up with a situation where any accusation, however spurious, is sufficient to deprive people of their Second Amendment rights, i.e., where we no longer have Second Amendment rights. It'll be as if Second Amendment were repealed.
"Couldn’t this same argument be used to disarm people accused of other — non-domestic-abuse-related — misbehavior?"
no
And yet, precisely this argument has been used in multiple jurisdictions to disarm, well, eventually everyone except the government.
Yes, "innocent until proven guilty" is a dangerous standard and will result in some people getting hurt and even dying. It's the right standard anyway and you're going to have to do more than a simple "no" to rebut it.
I can’t educate you here as to domestic violence which is a complicated situation. All I can say is that in my previous career I personally raced to pick up women (and often their young children) and drive them to our shelter because the husband or boyfriend was coming home armed and “loaded”. The legal remedy was an order of protection which was ex parte, often in front of a skeptical judge. On the return date the husband showed up (sometimes) and the judge had to decide whether there was continued danger. No jury, and no requirement of beyond a reasonable doubt which would be almost impossible to show.
If the prosecutor decides to go forward trial and conviction would be months away at least.
Now that she’s long dead I can mention her name. I refer you to the case People v. Seiler, New York Appellate Division. Defendant was convicted (finally) of the stabbing death of Rita Sievers. About two years before I had gotten a call and picked Rita up from her apartment, late at night. She had red hair and was from Texas.
So, ignore constitutional protections because they are inconvenient.
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/03/31/Public-housing-residents-want-gun-sweeps/3117765090000/
"the stabbing death"
Well, the no guns part worked, so there's that.
ISTM that sort of makes Brett's frequent point - telling dangerous people 'no guns for you' and letting them free is less effective than locking them up.
(I actually don't have a problem with no-guns-for-violent-people laws, with sufficient safeguards, but it just stands out to start a thread about how women will die w/o no-guns orders, then segue to a stabbing death)
If the man had a gun he would have shot Rita instead of stabbing her.
The judge could have ordered him to give up his gun. Now, under Bruen, he can’t.
"The judge could have ordered him to give up his gun. Now, under Bruen, he can’t."
In the happy world where the judge could have prohibited him from having guns, would she have been better off, or would the ex just have found another way?
This is the point Brett is right about. Consider 3 alternative worlds:
1)Ex shoots Rita
2)Ex is ordered to not have guns, and obeys that order, and stabs Rita to death
3)Ex is in jail and can't harm Rita
From Rita's POV, #2 isn't much of an improvement on #1.
A good argument for strict gun control.
Your comment backs up Brett's when he said it isn't about violence control but only about guns. Please explain to me how your client would have been better off with stricter gun control laws? Wouldn't she have been better off if the judge had ordered him locked up?
This is why I don't think any intelligent gun control supporters act in good faith. We always get some variation of "Well, this law wouldn't have stopped that crime but we have to start somewhere!"
So she would have been more dead?
You don't need to "educate" me on domestic violence. I am deeply familiar with it on both an academic (that is, informed statistical) and a personal level. Despite that (or more likely, because of that), I stand by the statement that the answer is not "throw out civil liberties and legal protections".
Note also that a "no guns" order would not have protected Rita Sievers. As you yourself said, she was stabbed to death. So not only is your preferred policy an unconstitutional infringement on fundamental liberty, it is also ineffective.
Your argument seems to be that if a law is not 100% effective it shouldn’t exist.
That's not even a good strawman of my argument. Try actually reading it, then try again.
Your argument also would invalidate orders of protection. A man has a constitutional right to associate with whom he pleases, including his wife and children.
You do not in fact have a right to associate with whomever you please when those other people object to it - which is precisely the point in an order of protection.
Wait.
We keep people in jail without a conviction all the time, in part because the judge thinks they would be dangerous out in the street.
So all this, "we have to wait for a conviction" to disarm him looks strange to me. Is being disarmed a greater deprivation than being jailed?
Just to be clear, 922g-whatever is a permanent lifetime ban with no appeal process[1]. So it's like refusing bail, then never holding the trial.
[1]there used to be a process where someone could A)Ask the ATF to review their case and decide they were reformed enough, and if they were turned down appeal to the federal courts. Congress has, for years, added an annual provision forbidding the ATF from processing those requests. One Thomas Lamar Bean applied for relief, got the 'we are forbidden from processing these' letter, and went to court saying that was an effective denial. The Supreme Court disagreed.
Bean seemed like...
...he wasn't particularly dangerous:
"Bean, a well-known businessman, was arrested by Mexican authorities who found a box of ammunition in his sport utility vehicle. The box had been left there by one of his co-workers, court records show, and Bean was convicted after being ordered to sign a confession in Spanish, which he didn't know.
In 2000 when he petitioned to get his gun rights _ and livelihood _ back, the 60-year-old father of two adult children was supported by two police chiefs, a sheriff, a judge, a prosecutor, and a Baptist preacher.
Solicitor General Theodore B. Olson said the case was not about Bean, but other felons who will now expect courts to restore their gun privileges.
"There is a significant risk that persons who pose a real danger to public safety might be rearmed," Olson wrote in court filings."
Of course, only if either the ATF or federal courts think they aren't a danger.
That case was widely reported among gun owners, and I think added significantly to objections to 922. It's one thing to think the lifetime bans are generally used appropriately, but removing the safety valve of an appeal makes the lack of due process up front matter.
(corrections welcome if I have the legal details wrong)
From what I read from the opinion, a due process question was not presented to the Supreme Court in Bean.
(also responding to DMN below): I'm not addressing the particular legal details of the Bean case - IIUC it was mostly a statutory case, i.e. does 'we won't decide'==denial or not - but in whether what happened to him was a just outcome. I, and a lot of gun owners, think he was unjustly screwed, and I think that is behind a lot of the resistance to 922 in general. If the statutory appeal process was actually available, I don't think there would be as much doubt about 922. Gun owners in general are not friendly to people who victimize others, but they don't see that Bean victimized anyone.
922(g)(8) — the relevant provision for this discussion — is not, in fact, a permanent lifetime ban. It lasts only as long as the order of protection is in effect.
So you want to do away with trials and just go with civil protective orders.
As with so many libertarian arguments on here (pack the Courts, no guns for felons, term llimits) it changes citizen voting or judicial rulings into a struggle to elect legislators for non-law reasons.
I mean, if you voted for Feinstein, with one limp wrist visible from the coffin, what sense is it to ask such a person to vote for term limits. Who you vote for and for how long you vote for them IS YOUR ANSWER to term limits, is it not?
" In Kersee, the court granted relief because it is sensitive to constitutional rights, not because it is insensitive to domestic violence."
We can't have that! He's been accused! He must go to jail!
Sarcasm off.
We're discussing the process for taking rights away from a person. Try those same arguments with the right to vote.
Better yet tie the right to vote to the other rights a person has. If they aren't able to exercise all of their rights they shouldn't be able to vote either.
Practical (and therefore legal) distinctions among rights and related limits seem to be difficult to manage for some people, especially disaffected absolutists.
The right to assemble, for example, does not generally entitle one to assemble with a few friends for lunch by placing a card table at the middle of the city's busiest intersection, no matter how calm the placement or lunch might be. It also generally does not entitle two witnesses to assemble to get their stories straight before deposition or trial.
Freedom of the press does not entitle a reporter to shoot (or even shove aside) people standing between the reporter and an event the reporter wishes to observe and report.
The right to bear arms does not generally entitle a citizen to possess a firearm on private property against the property owner's wishes (although I have a vague recollection some gun nuts chafe against that).
That's an interesting proposition, that states can civilly commit a dangerous person indefinitely with an unrepresented hearing and clear and convincing evidence, but can only disarm them with full criminal procedure.
Yeah, allegedly crazy people get a raw deal. We should fix that.
Yes. An anyone that has ever actually lived in America know, the one thing that is clearly far too easy to do is to get mentally ill people the help they require through civil process.
I mean, Brett is obviously speaking from a wealth of personal knowledge and experience with the system, and can tell you just how easy it is to get someone civilly committed. Not to mention he observes that if you go into any community in America today, we can see that there are no mentally ill people, since they have all been taken away by the state.
Good job, that.
How do we think a potential decision in Rahimi would affect Daniels?
https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/22/22-60596-CR0.pdf