The Volokh Conspiracy
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Bans on Approaching or Videorecording Hunters Struck Down by Seventh Circuit
From Brown v. Kemp, decided Monday in an opinion by Judge David Hamilton, joined by Judge Ilana Rovner:
[A Wisconsin law] makes it a crime to interfere intentionally with a hunter by [two or more acts of] "maintaining a visual or physical proximity" to the hunter, by "approaching or confronting" the hunter, or by photographing, videotaping, audiotaping, or otherwise recording the activity of the hunter….
[The prohibitions on] "maintaining a visual or physical proximity" to a hunter and "approaching or confronting" a hunter … are unconstitutionally vague…. They fail to specify, or even to offer any guidance about, how far away a person must stay to avoid engaging in unlawful interference….
Defendants argue that "visual or physical proximity" means "close enough" to impede or obstruct a hunter. That logic takes into account the statutory element of intent to interfere with hunting. But it still leaves the law impermissibly vague. What does "close enough" mean in the context of hunting? Five feet? Fifty feet? Five hundred feet? Five hundred yards? With modern rifles, the distance could be well beyond earshot. Stealth is part of hunting….
The vague statutory language also leaves too much room for arbitrary and discriminatory enforcement, chilling plaintiffs who are reasonably concerned about over-enforcement. The lack of objective criteria in subsection (2)(a)(7) means that enforcement authorities, like individual citizens, cannot know when the line between lawful and unlawful conduct has been crossed…. If the uncertainty and threat of arbitrary enforcement by public officials were not enough, plaintiffs are also subject to arbitrary enforcement at the hands of hunters and hunting parties [via citizen's suits authorized by the law]….
Clause (c) prohibits "photographing, videotaping, audiotaping, or through other electronic means, monitoring or recording the activities of" a hunter or member of a hunting party. Such monitoring activities are prohibited "regardless of where the act occurs." On its face, the text of the statute carves out no exemptions for monitoring and recording activities that aim to contribute to public discourse. It treats newsgathering and silent-protest monitoring the same as recordings made for solely individual use….
Comparing clause (c) to the scope of the statute before the amendment [see below -EV], we see that clause (c)'s only plausible purpose is expanding the scope of the statute to outlaw photography, videography, audiotaping, or other monitoring or recording activities that do not physically interfere with hunting activities. Otherwise, such monitoring or recording activities would have already been forbidden under the pre-amendment statute, rendering subsection (2)(a)(7) mere surplusage….
Once we recognize that clause (c) reaches only recording and monitoring activities that do not physically interfere with hunting or trapping, it becomes immediately apparent that the "presumptively impermissible applications" of clause (c) "far outnumber any permissible ones." When asked at oral argument for even a single hypothetical scenario in which clause (c) could constitutionally prohibit conduct not already criminalized, defendants suggested that clause (c) could apply where "somebody is committing battery while holding a camera." Aside from this trivial and improbable example, which would not actually involve expressive conduct and would already be criminal as battery, defendants have not mustered a hypothetical scenario in which clause (c) would have any effect other than to chill First Amendment activities. A small number of constitutional applications (or in this case, only one trivial and improbable one) are insufficient to save a statute whose applications are otherwise unconstitutional….
The court also concluded that subsection (2)(a)(7) was unconstitutionally viewpoint-based:
[C]lause (c) of subsection (2)(a)(7) targets fundamental speech activities. The acts enumerated in that clause—"photographing, videotaping, audiotaping, or through other electronic means, monitoring or recording"—are essential to the creation of speech and also expressive in their own right. Because the First Amendment protects conduct and activities necessary for expression, it also extends to the other clauses of subsection (2)(a)(7), since "visual or physical proximity" and approaching hunters are also essential to carry out plaintiffs' protected monitoring and recording of hunting.
Even if the activity covered by clauses (a) and (b) were better described as conduct than speech, conduct can still be covered by the First Amendment when the government "target[s the] conduct on the basis of its expressive content." … Here, as explained above, both the statutory text and evidence from its enactment show that it was specifically intended to target the expressive activities of members of Wolf Patrol and other anti-hunting advocates. Because the question whether the hunter harassment statute targets expressive conduct for an improper purpose, triggering First Amendment coverage, blurs into whether the regulation is content-and viewpoint-neutral, we consider the governments' purposes for the amended hunter harassment act in more depth in the following section….
The key question in determining whether a facially neutral regulation is actually content-neutral is "whether the law is 'justified without reference to the content of the regulated speech.'" To determine whether a law is justified without reference to the content of regulated speech, courts may consider a statute's stated purposes, the purposes of the statute as advanced by the government in litigation, and legislative purposes that can be inferred when a statute "single[s] out for regulation speech about one particular topic."
A related but distinct issue concerns statutes that target messages based on the speaker's motives. Such statutes can also be viewpoint-based. A statute's facial discrimination regarding the speaker's motives serves as evidence of an improper justification or purpose….
The amended hunter harassment law does not target all First Amendment activities that concern hunting as a subject matter. Rather, it prohibits expressive conduct that takes a particular viewpoint towards hunting. It applies only to expressive activities that are "intended to impede or obstruct" hunters or hunting activities. In other words, those applying the statute must consider speakers' viewpoints in analyzing whether their expressive activity violates the statute. Consequently, subsection (2)(a)(7) is viewpoint discriminatory on its face….
And the court rejected the argument that the statute could be upheld because of some compelling countervailing interest:
Where a statute discriminates based on viewpoint, courts apply strict scrutiny. To survive a constitutional challenge, the government must show that the restrictions on speech are "narrowly tailored to serve compelling state interests." …
Wisconsin has substantial interests in promoting and protecting hunting. Applying strict scrutiny, however, the provisions in the amended hunter harassment law that restrict plaintiffs' speech activities are not necessary to serve those interests. The availability of "adequate content-neutral alternatives" to further the state's interest "'undercut[s] significantly'" any justification for a statute under strict scrutiny….
Defendants have not shown how the original prohibition on physical obstruction of hunting was not sufficient to protect those legitimate interests. Without subsection (2)(a)(7), which targets First Amendment activities, both the original and amended statutes prohibit interference or attempted interference with hunting "with the intent to prevent the taking of a wild animal," by "impeding or obstructing" either a hunter or an associated hunting activity. Where any single act of interference that physically impedes or obstructs hunting is sufficient under both the original and amended statutes to trigger criminal sanctions, it adds little for the state to also criminalize "[e]ngaging in a series of 2 or more" expressive acts that interfere with hunting…..
In fact, subsection (2)(a)(7) could be considered "necessary" only to serving the improper purpose of targeting the silent-protest monitoring and recording activities of plaintiffs and Wolf Patrol that do not physically interfere with hunting.
Both hunters and plaintiffs are entitled to be present on public land. Neither group has a right to exclude the other. In Wisconsin, hunters have a constitutional right to hunt, but they do not have a right to avoid contact with people like plaintiffs who disapprove of their hunting. The defense has not offered a plausible scenario in which subsection (2)(a)(7) would have any effect other than to chill First Amendment activities. In other words, defendants all but admit that Wisconsin's legitimate interests in protecting lawful hunting and trapping activities could be achieved just as effectively with the preamendment hunter harassment law. The conclusion is that subsection (2)(a)(7)'s only effect is to intimidate plaintiffs and to chill their protected expression opposed to hunting. The amended provision is not narrowly tailored to further the State's interests….
Judge Thomas Kirsch dissented, arguing that the law should be interpreted more narrowly, as covering only videorecording and other actions that involve "physical interference or obstruction with a person engaged in hunting activity."
Here is the relevant statute as quoted by the court, with the 2016 additions shown in bold; recall that (2)(a)(7) is the provision being challenged:
(2) Prohibitions. (a) No person may interfere or attempt to interfere with lawful hunting, fishing, or trapping with the intent to prevent the taking of a wild animal, or intentionally interfere with or intentionally attempt to interfere with an activity associated with lawful hunting, fishing, or trapping, by doing any of the following:
- Harassing a wild animal or by engaging in an activity that tends to harass wild animals.
- Impeding or obstructing a person who is engaged in lawful hunting, fishing or trapping.
- Impeding or obstructing a person who is engaged in an activity associated with lawful hunting, fishing or trapping.
- Disturbing the personal property of a person engaged in lawful hunting, fishing or trapping.
- Disturbing a lawfully placed hunting blind or stand.
- Disturbing lawfully placed bait or other material used to feed or attract a wild animal.
- Engaging in a series of 2 or more acts carried out over time, however short or long, that show a continuity of purpose and that are intended to impede or obstruct a person who is engaged in lawful hunting, fishing, or trapping, or an activity associated with lawful hunting, fishing, or trapping, including any of the following:
- Maintaining a visual or physical proximity to the person.
- Approaching or confronting the person.
- Photographing, videotaping, audiotaping, or through other electronic means, monitoring or recording the activities of the person. This subd. 7. c. applies regardless of where the act occurs.
- Causing a person to engage in any of the acts described in subd. 7.a. to c.
- Using a drone, as defined in s. 941.292(1), to conduct any activity prohibited under subds. 1. to 7.
Mark Matthew Leitner, Jessica L. Farley, and Joseph S. Goode (Laffey, Leitner & Goode, LLC) and Kelsey Rinehart Eberly (Animal Legal Defense Fund) represent the challengers.
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Seems that the individuals wanting to record the hunting are creating a safety hazard and or scaring off the game.
A lot of hunting is on private land, which means the uninvited photographers are trespassing
“ A lot of hunting is on private land, which means the uninvited photographers are trespassing”
In which case there would be no need for the amended statute. I don’t get the impression this is an anti-trespassing statute.
I live in WI, and this is the first I’ve heard of this. Curious what the amended statute was trying to address, and why it was passed.
"Curious what the amended statute was trying to address, and why it was passed."
Not a great mystery. It tried to prevent people from intentionally interfering with hunters (presumably out of a concern for their “victims”). It’s comparable to (but, IMO, much more defensible than) the laws prohibiting this practice:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk_counseling
Yep, I don't doubt that there are folks who, out of some misguided sense of moral purity against those eeeevil hunters*, try to scare off the occasional deer or other in-season critter.
But as I noted, I live in WI, and it's the first I've even heard of this. So I'm curious is there is a specific incident or incidents, or vocal organizations, or something like that that spurred the [unconstitutional] amendment to the WI Stat. Something a bit more than the true-but-meh observation that sidewalk counseling exists as concept and is sometimes implemented by zealots.
*for the humor-impaired, yes that's a sarcastic take on the mindset of such activists. Also works for sidewalk counselors.
I found this from 2017, which seems to report the start of this lawsuit.
https://www.gohunt.com/content/news/-wisconsin-s-hunter-harassment-law-is-receiving-pushback
There does not seem to be a specific cause for the law, beyond a lot of back and forth over wolf hunts in Wisconsin.
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/misc/lc/issue_briefs/2022/environment_and_natural_resources/ib_wolf_harvest_ah_2022_04_06
moderation4ever's comment lower down has a more detailed explanation.
The article already gives the necessary clue. Look up Wolf Patrol. You'll get a mix of their own propaganda and some equally virulent pro-hunting takes on their activities.
For background, the Wolf Patrol was trying to end what they considered bad practices in wolf hunting. The hunters, on the other hand, were mostly farmers (and people hired by them) trying to protect their herds and flocks. The reintroduction of wolves was quite controversial.
Farmer are allowed to hunt a problem wolf at any time. I don't have a problem with wolf hunting, but rather with specific practices used by some wolf hunter. I don't even mind using a dog to help track a wolf, but not to run one down.
I also like to mention that I have little sympathy for bear hunter that lose dog to wolves. I see no reason the state should have to pay a hunter stupid enough to be running his dogs in areas and at times when wolf pups are present.
Rossami, in wolf habitat in the American West, more likely ranchers than farmers. And likely whatever predation occurs takes place on public land leased to ranchers as grazing allotments. That is a situation not quite as clear cut as a farmer protecting his livestock on his own land.
Problem is, if you do your ranching in habitat suitable for use by wolves, your choice is pretty much between suffering some predation, or extirpating all the wolves over a vast area, encompassing probably at least thousands of square miles. Wolves show they are astonishingly well oriented within vast geographic ranges. Move one wolf hundreds of miles from where it wants to be, and it will likely be back in a matter of days, or maybe a week or two. Seems like they are not much impeded by major mountain ranges, or by big rivers.
A personal observation to illustrate. In 2015 I revisited for the first time in decades one of my favorite outdoor regions in Idaho. After I arrived, I read to my sorrow in a local newspaper that government land managers had a few weeks previously finished extirpating a wolf pack which had taken up residence there. Ranchers with allotments had demanded it be cleared out, and the government obliged.
But the newspaper report proved unreliable. My third night camping produced a clear sky and a full moon. First I heard coyotes chorusing. A few hours later, I heard the unmistakably different yodeling of a wolf pack.
Despite its use for grazing, the area in question is admired by naturalists for its relatively unchanged character as wildlife habitat. It is said to host every species of mammal that had been there historically, with the possible exception of grizzly bears. Mule deer, elk, pronghorns, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goats, wolverines and a plethora of smaller mammals all thrive there, along with the coyotes, and the wolves. Parts of that region still feature spawning by salmon and especially steelhead at remarkably high elevations. It is not surprising that the wolves want to find their way back. They have the capabilities to do it, and they use them.
I view it as a safety issue -- more like the law against crossing a railroad track if a train is "approaching" and I've never seen any problem with those laws being vague.
But what I think the real issue here is with "Doxing" -- and we're going to have to do something about this cancel culture before it becomes mutual assured destruction. What is preventing one from identifying women going into an abortion clinic and then Doxing them?
The other thing here is that -- if this is like Maine -- there is some serious money involved. An out of state license is not cheap, and that money goes to the wildlife folks, paying for game and non-game wildlife (eg Bald Eagles). There are people running hunting lodges and motels who depend on seasonal business from hunters and then snowmobilers -- business is slow the rest of the year.
I can see rural legislators attempting to defend rural business.
Zarn - a lot of hunting is done on private land whereby the hunters pay a fee to hunt on the property and most of the hunting leases are exclusive. Therefore irrespective of the anti-recording statute, the photographer would be trespassing on private property under the standard trespassing statutes.
Yes, I get that. I got that in the prior response. That's why I responded "In which case there would be no need for the amended statute."
It's trespassing already. No additional statute is required to remove them from property where they are trespassing and thus stop the interference. We agree on that, correct?
So back to what I actually wondered about and am still wondering about: what happened that made the WI Leg feel a need to amend the statute?
And for additional clarity (and in partial response to Ed G.), not a general "the statute addresses what it says it addresses" pseudo-helpful observation, but a more-specific "did something happen in WI that I, as a WI resident, was blissfully unaware of, yet made the WI Leg think they needed respond with an unconstitutional statute?"
Wasn't there an incident where some hunters shot down a drone?
I can't remember exactly where or when, but I do remember something about hunters doing this and arguments as to where the drone actually was, and the rest. It wouldn't be hard for a competent marksman to take it out with a .30-06 round -- I've taken spruce trees down that way.
Hello to a fellow Wisconsinite. I recall this going into effect about the time that wolf hunting was starting. Wisconsin has a long hunting tradition for deer and birds, that most people accept. Hunting wolf is a newer pursuit, and it doesn't always meet with the ideas hunters profess. Wolf hunting is opposed because of the use of dogs and traps. The image of a hunter walking up to a wolf in a leg trap and shooting the wolf is not what people think of as hunting. Nor is the idea of a dog pack running a wolf to ground before it is shot. I think there is a real desire to keep people from filming this type of activity.
Aha, that makes much more sense than taking deer (and I do love a good venison summer snausage!). Wolf hunting has been politicized all out of proportion by the gerrymandered WI Leg in recent years. Thanks for the insight.
The image of a hunter walking up to a wolf in a leg trap and shooting the wolf is not what people think of as hunting.
"what people think of" is overly broad here. What "some", "many" or perhaps even "most" think might be represented by that statement, but it is by no means all people. Compounding the problem is the fact that most people are both quite ignorant about the subject and have a rather self-important idea about what qualifies as hunting and what doesn't. "Hunting" is simply the pursuit of wild or feral animals with the intent of killing them. The purpose may be for food, sport, pest control, some combination of those, etc. The means and methods employed may range from those dictated by a sense of "sport" and/or ethics and concern for minimizing suffering by the quarry, to embracing pretty much anything that gets the job done.
For myself, hunting is motivated by enjoyment of both the environment in which it takes place as well as the pursuit itself. Putting healthy meat in the freezer is a nice bonus. This is why I'm able to sometimes going an entire season without ever taking a shot while still thoroughly enjoying myself. I also hold myself to my own sense of ethics in the pursuit. I will not take a shot that does not have a very high probability of making for a quick, clean kill. I will not pursue game that is not legal for me to pursue, even if I'm reasonably certain I could get away with it. I will not pursue game that is artificially constrained in their travel (for instance, so-called "high fence" hunts). I try at all times to be considerate of others while hunting. And so on and so forth. Some of these things are a matter of ethics, while others are simply preference. But by adherence to these principles/restrictions doesn't mean that styles of hunting that do not adhere to them are not "hunting".
WuzYoungOnceToo (yeah, me too). Was born and raised in rural Idaho. In 1968 per the custom of that time and place, received a single-shot .22 Marlin rifle for my 14th birthday. Started bird hunting that fall with my Dad and brother (pheasant, quail and dove with an over/under 20 gauge—we preferred field hunting over sitting in a duck blind). Got my first deer tag at 16, at 18 saved up and bought my own Winchester Model 70 deer rifle (used but well-cared for).
I enjoyed all the outdoor experiences you describe but, as I came to understand that killing things for thrill or entertainment was both unnecessary and more than a little creepy, by age 25 had given up hunting for good. And yes, killing things for thrill or entertainment does describe a majority of the hunters I have known over the years.
Most hunters, at home expressed the same honorable principles you do (including my dad). Some consistently held to them but for many (including my brother), their actions in the field demonstrated they did not.
Over the decades I’ve continued to enjoy the outdoors—but never during hunting season. The ill-mannered and often dangerous behavior of all those thrill-or-entertainment hunters egging-each-other-on, remains the worst advertisement for hunting (or for that matter, gun ownership) ever.
I enjoyed all the outdoor experiences you describe but, as I came to understand that killing things for thrill or entertainment was both unnecessary and more than a little creepy, by age 25 had given up hunting for good. And yes, killing things for thrill or entertainment does describe a majority of the hunters I have known over the years.
The above represents one of the categories of topical ignorance (not to mention self-unaware virtue signaling) that I was referring to. First off, “killing things for thrill or entertainment” might accurately describe what motivated you…and if so you might want to consider some professional mental health counseling…but it does not accurately describe my own motives, nor those of most of the hunters I know (see, the danger in ascribing such motives to “a majority of the hunters [you] have known over the years” demonstrates suggests you tend to make poor decisions when it comes to those with whom you associate, or that you are simply unable to get those with a better sense of morals and ethics to associate with you.)
Now, you might be inclined to respond by claiming that is really what motivates myself and others like me as well, no matter how much we don’t want to admit it. But let me save you the time and trouble (were you so inclined) by pointing out the clueless and childishly simple-minded nature of such a claim. As already pointed out, the primary joy of hunting for me comes from the pursuit itself, not the kill…which is why I consider any time spent in the woods hunting a successful endeavor, whether I even get an opportunity to take game or not. A large part of that is simply being in the wilderness, which I find extremely relaxing. The other is indulgence of my own primal predatory instincts (and yes, humans are possessed of such instincts, which is one of the things that allowed our species to survive) in an environment that, while challenging to at least some degree, is not excessively dangerous to myself or my son (who routinely hunts with me). I find this to be both enjoyable and far more honest with myself and others than pretending that such drives don’t exist, or that I’m more civilized and/or evolved than others…or any other such nonsense.
As for the “necessity” of killing game via hunting, unless you’re a strict vegan that’s a hypocritical point. If you eat meat then you already accept the necessity of animals being killed to provide you with that type of food. Paying someone else to do your dirty work for you doesn’t give you any moral high ground.
"As already pointed out, the primary joy of hunting for me comes from the pursuit itself..."
Yes, I noticed that. That's the entertainment part of the mentioned boolean thrill OR entertainment(though actually should be AND/OR). That's no different from other hunt for the solution puzzles people are entertained by. You take joy in that entertainment, just as I—not much of a puzzle guy—take a similar joy in the entertaining weekly rehearsals of my community choral group (more so than in the thrill of the concerts that are supposedly the point of all that rehearsal, paralleling your joy in the pursuit, rather than thrill of the kill).
I take you at your your word (because I have no reason not to) that you are a principled, ethical hunter who holds to those principles not just in the hunting camp, but in the field. I realize those people exist because I know some. But I know others who say they are, but don't demonstrate that in the field. And I know a whole bunch of others who don't even pretend.
I believe you a little less when you deny observing a majority of hunters are motivated by thrill or entertainment, perhaps because you didn't recognize that entertainment value to yourself, either. I meant only that, and not that most hunters are in the don't even pretend category, but the principled hunters I know are not shy about expressing their contempt for that large number of obnoxious, swaggering, roadside sign shooting, too often drunk thrill-seekers.
In the vegan wars, I'm an unapologetic carnivore (mostly chicken and and fish for health reasons—my dad died at 61 of his 2nd heart attack—but indulging in the occasional expertly prepared cheeseburger or steak). But I know where my meat comes from and don't apologize that I can afford to have someone else kill and prepare it. Were it necessary, I'd do that while finding it neither entertaining nor thrilling (likely applies to you too). I also don't like torture-porn horror movies (Saw series, etc.) and find those who do to be mostly creepy, obnoxious thrill-seekers.
Overall, my comment was based on things I directly observed, and (arguable, certainly) opinion derived from that. So I also believe you less because you seem to feel that to contest a point, you must dive into contempt and insults based on things of which you have no knowledge, an approach that does not tend to add to the credibility of your protestations.
“As already pointed out, the primary joy of hunting for me comes from the pursuit itself…”
Yes, I noticed that. That’s the entertainment part of the mentioned boolean thrill OR entertainment(though actually should be AND/OR).
Let’s cut the bullshit where you pretend that you said something other than what you actually said, shall we? It’s a childish and pathetically dishonest tactic that’s already been done to death here. What you actually said, and that I quoted verbatim:
“I came to understand that killing things for thrill or entertainment was both unnecessary and more than a little creepy, by age 25 had given up hunting for good. And yes, killing things for thrill or entertainment does describe a majority of the hunters I have known over the years.”
You were specifically speaking of gaining a “thrill” or “entertainment from “killing things” (as opposed to the process of the hunt itself), and referred to it as “more than a little creepy”. Now you’re trying to pretend that you said something else.
I believe you a little less…
Given the above you’re not in any position to be casting any doubts on my or anyone else's veracity.
I hunt for the entertaining joy of the pursuit and being outdoors, and the fact this its entire purpose is to personally and unnecessarily kill something (otherwise it's not hunting, just stalking), I find not even a little bit creepy.
Cut the bullshit—what about the fact that I disagree, so enrages you? I don't say you must find it creepy. In the context of American society, I don't find hunting a sin or particularly evil—just creepy enough, like a penchant for torture/horror movies that despite being raised in a conservative hunting family and culture that actively encouraged the activity, I decided to stop killing things for unnecessary entertainment value. You didn't.
Do I think society would be improved if people didn't choose either of those activities? Sure, but so what? We all have our ideas on how society could be improved, that aren't going to happen. We're wired differently.
Mine was a purposeful decision, arrived at for that specific reason (and for how it attracts more than its share of unpleasant jerks, kind of like how golf attracts so many middle-aged-to-old Frat Boys I find unpleasant to be around, that I don't play much anymore). I can find my entertainment elsewhere. Keep enjoying yours.
"how it attracts more than its share of unpleasant jerks"
I know that jerk hunters exist, but the dozen odd I know personally are all pretty sterling people, so statistically speaking I don't think the percentage of jerks can be all that high.
Wuz, Purple Martin describes the hunting scene in Idaho just about the way I remember it, right down to the riddled roadside signs. I hunted there pretty avidly for years. It's a state where the hunting season then stretched from August to January. Probably still does. That extra-long season provides a chance to get more hunting experience in a few years than most hunters who live with one- or two-week deer seasons elsewhere can get in their entire lives.
What I learned in Idaho was to avoid almost everyone else, and to hunt mainly in remote areas where encounters with other hunters remained unlikely. I hunted mostly alone.
Safe, reliable, ethical hunting partners were few and far between. I met a few, and every one of them was someone with a rural background like Purple Martin describes, or someone with career military experience—not just a single enlistment. My favorite hunting partner combined both, although the military experience was vicarious—he hunted with the 30-40 Krag his father carried in the Spanish American War.
To go afield with most of the others turned out to be manifestly dangerous, and usually a disappointment. I got shot at in the field a few times, and have described some of those instances here in previous threads.
As for you, I think Emerson saw you coming: "The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons."
I hear prattle like yours from lots of gun fans; they turn out to spend most of their gun time on indoor ranges, or like you went entire years without killing any game.
You don't sound like the voice of experience. Way too confident for that. Everyone I have known who spent serious time actually using guns got taught by that experience to worry about the dangers of having guns around at all.
You sound like someone parroting pieties you read in the gun mags. I used to read those too. I recognize the style. Tell me instead about the times you were afield with a gun, and by happenstance completely lost control of where the muzzle was pointed. Maybe that would improve my estimation about your gun experience.
But it would have helped if you had brought up yourself some indication of worry about gun safety, or about mayhem and social harms caused by too many feckless people with guns. If you shrink from mentioning concerns of that sort, it is impossible to take you seriously as an experienced voice on subjects related to guns.
Not a hunter; I also get my meat at the supermarket.
But I don't grok the ethics argument about hunters enjoying the hunt.
Adam has his meat farmed (frequently in pretty awful conditions), and killed by Bob who hates his job (because working in a slaughterhouse is no fun).
Carl hunts deer ethically. Those deer are never confined in tiny cages or feedlots. If not hunted they will eventually die slowly of starvation or not fast enough when caught by a predator. But Carl enjoys the hunt.
I'm Adam, not Carl, but I really don't feel like I hold the ethical high ground - in fact I think the opposite - I think Carl is more ethical than I am, and whether he enjoys the hunt or finds it a chore he does to put meat on the table seems irrelevant. The deer Carl eats had a lot better life than the cows in the feedlots I got to spend some quality time in as a young'un, and I expect the cows have it a lot better than the average chicken.
My attitude is that if I can't kill my food (meat or fish) then I can't justify eating it. Of course I am also killing plants to eat.
Long lens can overcome distances. There are enough public access roadways in Wisconsin that provide access to even private lands.
Longer lenses can help – That is only partially true. I saw a pic last week of Longs peak, colorado that was taken with a 55-200 from approx 6 miles away that was dialed in much closer than a Pic I took from 3/4 mile away with a 16-80 ( it was about a 26-30 focal length)
So yes a 400mm or 600mm is going to pick up the eyes on a deer from 1.5-2.0 miles away. That is presuming the forest doesnt block the view.
Atmospheric quality, what astronomers call, "seeing," becomes a bigger factor the more air you shoot through. A shot taken horizontally at sea level may in 2 or 3 miles encounter more atmospheric distortion than one taken vertically through the entire upper atmosphere from an elevation of 8,000 – 10,000 feet.
Given typically-rare ideal atmospheric conditions, everything else matters. You want the longest prime lens, never a zoom, of the highest quality you can afford. You also want a camera featuring an imaging chip with ~ 50 megapixels, or more. And of course an excellent tripod, to be used on a day without wind to make that long lens vibrate. Temperatures should be neither two warm nor too cold, and your lens must have had ample time to equalize its temperature with ambient conditions.
After that, you need software and the skill to use it to undo (to the extent possible) or minimize imperfections recorded in the original image.
With those conditions met you might be able to capture a readily recognizable portrait of a human subject at a quarter-mile, and maybe even identify the brand of earbuds he uses, if you know their shapes. You will not be able to read his analog watch. At greater distances, you can sometimes hope to identify features which show up in an image taken from ~10 miles as human beings, sitting or standing, but that's the typical limit for popularly available high-priced camera equipment.
What can be done shooting from space using custom-made lenses with much wider objectives is another matter. The space telescopes enable you to see a myriad of galaxies in an area of sky which could be covered by something about the angular size of a pinhead held at arms length.
What I don't understand is how a weather breeder -- the type of super-clear weather we get in New England a day or so before a storm -- can magnify distant objects.
It refracts, and hence objects over the horizon due to the curvature of the earth become visible. One classic sign is ocean behind an island locate 5 miles away appearing *over* it instead of below it where it really is. But what is really interesting is that land is miles away appears to be much closer, both larger and with more visible detail (trees, etc). Sometimes the same thing happens at sunset.
“A lot of hunting is on private land, which means the uninvited photographers are trespassing”
Joe, the already court seems to be aware that trespassing on private land is illegal, thus the limit of the decision to “public land.”
Maybe, like with hate crime laws, it was felt that the punishment for trespassing wasn't enough to address this crime.
What strange laws. They might have been motivated by cases where people other than the hunter scare the game away. Take deer hunting for example, how close is too close? The deer might be scared away if you noisily come within 1/2 mile.
A deer hunter who shoots at a deer might scare all the other deer within 3 miles, thus interfering with other deer hunters.
A stinky person may scare all the game for miles downwind.
If the laws had focused on the effect of the behavior on the game, instead of trying to define the bad behaviors, they might have fewer constitutional problems. But in the end, that would probably fail also. It sounds like an impossible goal that lawmakers should never have attempted.
It's not scaring the game away as much as making it unsafe to shoot them -- you don't want to shoot a deer if there is any human in your field of fire. It's the same thing as the idiots standing in the road to stop traffic.
Now the two questions I have are (a) are they also wearing blaze orange safety clothing, and (b) who's at fault if one of these idiots accidentally gets shot? There was a case in Bangor, ME back in the '80s (when Maine was still Maine) where there was a house that hadn't been there the year before, and a woman comes out in a brown coat and waves her white gloves at the hunter because her child was sleeping -- and he shot/killed her by mistake. He the local scoutmaster and produce manager at local supermarket.
He was acquitted on the grounds that what she did was so stupid that it didn't pass muster on a criminal sense. Or something like that.
But who's at fault if you accidentally shoot one of these idiots?
There was a case in Bangor, ME back in the ’80s (when Maine was still Maine) where there was a house that hadn’t been there the year before, and a woman comes out in a brown coat and waves her white gloves at the hunter because her child was sleeping — and he shot/killed her by mistake. He the local scoutmaster and produce manager at local supermarket.
He was acquitted on the grounds that what she did was so stupid that it didn’t pass muster on a criminal sense. Or something like that.
I find that at least somewhat difficult to believe, assuming the facts were as stated. As a hunter you are legally responsible for identifying your target, regardless of how “stupid” it might be behaving. I’m going to be held responsible even if I shoot a non-human animal that regulations prohibit me from shooting (a buck with antlers that do not meet the minimum point and spread requirements, a doe during parts of the season that are buck-only, any non-game species, etc.). My offense is not going to be excused because that animal was stupid enough to make itself visible to me during hunting season. Pulling the trigger when you're unable to visually differentiate a human from a deer is a level of stupid that is far worse.
For once Ed is not totally wrong. I lived in MA at the time and I recall the incident as well. He was excoriated for bad, really bad, he-killed-someone-bad target acquisition, and huting so close to habitations (you might mistake mittens for a deer tail, but he didn't see a whole house!) ... but he was acquitted nonetheless.
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/10/17/Deer-hunter-innocent-in-womans-death/2989656136000/
and yeah, Wuz, I agree with you both on the general principle and non-human examples you gave. I wasn't on the jury, but I think they got it fundamentally wrong. No matter how "accidental" it was, the hunter fuc#ed up, it was preventable, he should have done better, and he killed someone as a result.
That's what manslaughter is.
And the inevitable "It was deer season, so she should have been head to toe in blaze orange, in her own back yard" is victim-blaming.
Then I acknowledge that my doubts, though reasonable, were mistaken. I have to wonder if this was a case of a stupid jury, an inept prosecution, both...or something else.
"I have to wonder if this was a case of a stupid jury, an inept prosecution, both…or something else."
Veering into the realm of speculation, but the shooter was apparently the sort of defendant a skilled attorney could present as a "nice guy" (scoutmaster, local wage earner, etc.) that didn't "deserve punishment". It usually helps to have an upstanding *cough*and white*cough* defendant.
It usually helps to have an upstanding *cough*and white*cough* defendant.
I can understand the "upstanding" part, but the racial element isn't so obvious. Similar cases are successfully prosecuted all the time, and the overwhelming vast majority of the defendants in the cases with which I've been familiar have been white (which is to be expected given that the overwhelming vast majority of hunters are white, roughly equal to their share of the general population).
Well, she was a Flatlander — from out of state.
At the time, in Central Maine, “Flatlander” was a slur on the level of “Nigger” in the Deep South.
So yes, jury bias came in to play -- although, in fairness (a) the house hadn't been there the year before, and (b) really wasn't visible from the way the hunter approached.
More recently in Massachusetts a deer hunter shot a woman walking her dogs. (Norton, Massachusetts, December 31 2011.) Hunting season had ended at sunset an hour earlier, according to contemporary reports. Eager to get something for his efforts he shot at movement in the shadows. She survived. As an off duty state trooper he was not criminally charged.
A stopped calendar is right once a year, and this is that day for Dr. Ed.
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/10/17/Deer-hunter-innocent-in-womans-death/2989656136000/
During hunting season, the State of Maine sets up an additional tag station in a rest area on I-95 Southbound north of Bangor and hires the UMaine Wildlife undergrads to staff it. They have stories -- my favorite being the guy trying to tag a Black Lab puppy as a Black Bear cub, even though you aren't supposed to be shooting Black Bear CUBS in the first place.
This was before hunter safety requirements -- anyone could simply buy a license and blast away.
Banning hunting on public property could solve many problems.
And create many more, such as starving deer when the public property they are on is overgrazed. Or we could introduce wolves, which would only take a few pets and small children a year.
There are likely methods of controlling deer population that do not involve groups of armed, half-drunk, half-educated yokels stumbling around on public property, shooting at whatever they figure might be a deer. Perhaps advanced states could ask their universities to help the can't-keep-up states in this regard.
Citizens should be able to walk on public lands without worry about being shot by an armed, trigger-happy, cosplaying, scofflaw hayseed.
Actually, there aren't. Communities in NOVA have been trying that for years, and deer from other areas move right in.
You're safer walking in a public hunting area than you are driving there.
Be honest now, Artie, are you for real? Or are you someone's spot-on parody of a certain kind of leftist? If the latter, I would think you have a good future in comedy.
I respect hunters who shoot for food. Others do not seem to deserve respect. Shooting a deer, rabbit, pheasant, or squirrel is no less honorable than purchasing plastic-wrapped meat from a grocer.
I respect hunters who will follow a wounded animal for hours (or longer) rather than abandon the animal after an ineffective shot. I do not respect hunters who spotlight, bait (hanging a salt donut from a wire before deer season, then removing the donut the day before hunting season, climbing a tree to await the deer looking for the salt lick, and blowing their brains out), drink alcohol or smoke dope while walking around armed looking for something to shoot, shoot at anything that moves, have a haphazard approach to law and posted property, etc.
I perceive no reason to permit hunting on public property, however. Shooting bullets that travel beyond line of direct sight is something better restricted to private property, for example. And non-shooters have rights, too, including the right to avoid being shot by a half-buzzed gunman shooting for sport.
Some towns in coastal Maine have restricted hunting to shotgun slug only - not because of your concern but because of all the ledge and concern for ricochets.
Reality is that a bullet fired in a forest really can't go that far before it hits a tree.
There are more deer wandering around N. America today than when the Pilgrims landed.
And there are no economical or effective ways of dealing with them - professional hunters are expensive. Doing nothing results in massive die-offs from overgrazing and disease.
And if you find a hunter who is half-drunk, please point him out to a law enforcement officer (fish and game ranger): They'd love to arrest the SOB. BTW, there are more half-drunk urbanites driving in NYC than half-drunk hunters in the wild.
You seem unfamiliar with the volume of beer sales associated with hunting, or with brewers’ plans and programs designed to profit from hunters’ predictable, substantial purchase and consumption of alcohol beverages.
I am more familiar with hunting, than you apparently are.
I am also an emergency physician in a major hunting area (Montana)...I'd be seeing a lot of hunting injuries, if they happened.
In fact, I don't see an unusual number compared to where I used to live, suburban Los Angeles.
Further, were it not for hunters, and the 11% excise tax on hunting related items (guns, ammo, (Pittman-Robertson Act) taxes that Hunters voluntarily voted for and have been supporting hunting lands development for almost century, there would be far fewer hunting lands, and hunting animals, and hunter education.
Once again, you're speaking of things you are completely ignorant of. Quelle surprise.
The tony suburb of Cape Elizabeth, Maine tried that and their auto insurance premiums wen through the roof. Over half the auto accidents in town involved collisions with a deer. Peoples landscaping was getting chewed up, and there was concern about Lyme disease.
The best example though is Teddy Roosevelt and the Kabob Deer.
"Both hunters and plaintiffs are entitled to be present on public land. Neither group has a right to exclude the other."
This is not correct. Many public parks are closed for short portions of the year for any purpose other than hunting.
For public safety reasons.
It is bow hunting season in parts of Massachusetts. If I go to a forest where hunting is allowed I will wear clothing that is not deer-colored.
The use of "including" before the list means it is illustrative and not exhaustive. The entire list could be stricken and the remainder of (2)(a)(7) could survive on its own. It has a specific intent requirement so vagueness would work in the defendant's favor at trial.
The Wisconsin legislature may have made a mistake by mentioning photographing, which appears to have led the 6th Circuit to apply exacting First Amendment standards to the whole thing.
Except for the First Amendment hook, the statute strikes me as straightforwardly constitutional, no vaguer than numerous terms that are frequently left for courts to sort out.
The legislature could easily correct the problems. It could remove any reference to photographing or any other First Amendment (or indeed any other specific) activities, refer to activites only with regard to their objective effect on the game or on safety (making noise, being visible to game, etc.). The intent requirement strikes me as making this very straightforward.
It is a common symptom of partisan activism for judges to apply overly strict vagueness rules to laws they don’t like. If you don’t don’t think the activity should be prohibited in the first place, it’s easy for the kinds of distinctions almost any law makes, and which are routinely accepted, to suddenly appear indecipherable.
It is a common symptom of partisan activism for judges to apply overly strict vagueness rules to laws they don’t like. If you don’t don’t think the activity should be prohibited in the first place, it’s easy for the kinds of distinctions almost any law makes, and which are routinely accepted, to suddenly appear indecipherable.
Like this one, striking down for vagueness a law based on a distance requirement that was far less vague than the one in this case?
https://webservices.courthousenews.com/sites/Data/AppellateOpinionUploads/2023-17-3--13-14-06-RI450.pdf
In other words, they could go back to the hunter interference law that was in place before they amended it in 2016 to incorporate viewpoint discrimination, triggering strict scrutiny of 1st Amendment issues.
EV ends his post with this:
[I give up...Edit scrambles blockquotes, especially 2nd-level blockquotes, and randomly removes some line breaks but not others. Went back and tried to correct it twice but had to completely redo each time, and this is where I was when the 5 minute edit window ended. Just note the last run-on paragraph is actually a bolded list of items a. through e.
Go up to the last part of EV's post to review the full thing.]
c. Photographing, videotaping, audiotaping, or through other electronic means, monitoring or recording the activities of the person.
This looks extreme to me. It was my impression that anyone in a public area could legally be photographed.
What is the purpose of this?
Here in Massachusetts we have a law protecting hunters that includes a specific distance limit:
One hundred rods is about 1/4 mile. The pigeon referred to is the extinct wild pigeon, which used to be taken in nets. Somehow this law survived recodification in the early 20th century.
"evidence from its enactment show that it was specifically intended to target the expressive activities of members of Wolf Patrol and other anti-hunting advocates."
I was looking for this, to answer the question of what motivated this peculiar law. Apparently they have some psychos out in the woods harassing hunters to protest hunting. These fugly green haired antifa types haven't been called to action by Democrats in a little while so they are looking for something to do.
"The amended hunter harassment law . . . prohibits expressive conduct that takes a particular viewpoint towards hunting."
Right. Much like other regulations that prohibit expressive conduct that takes a particular viewpoint towards transgenderism, or same sex marriage.
fugly green haired antifa types
You've got issues.
"It's coming rolight for us!"
- obligatory South Patk Reference
Honestly, antagonizing men armed and looking to kill (animals) doesn't seem overly wise. The antagonizers are relying on a great deal of patience and self control of others.
Another reason to prohibit hunting on public property.
On private property, though, hunting should be permitted (if reasonably regulated).
When the government owns a majority of land in the western states, that's not such a great idea.
Now if the government were to sell most of that land to the people, you may have a good idea.
There is plenty of privately owned land.
There are actually morons out there who deliberately go and harass people who are legally armed with firearms, bows and arrows, hunting knives?
There are also morons who will go out onto an interstate highway and stand in front of an 80,000 lb (often 100,000+ lb) truck.
Here in Massachusetts, we even have morons who will stand in front of coal trains -- multiple 200 ton locomotives pulling 90 ton coal cars....
There are actually imbeciles and idiots who figure they should be able to harass and endanger other citizens (by toting around weapons, looking for something to shoot) on public property?
Maybe a few, but the majority are called lawful gun owners, who hunt (Thereby maintaining healthy and continuous populations of game animals) at a net profit to the government.
Anyone firing a gun on public property generates unnecessary risks for other citizens.
It’s not just net profit — what do people think funds the Bald Eagle projects?
I type this from the Northwoods of Wisconsin, 10 miles south of the UP border. We don't allow hunting on our land (lakefront homes), but plenty of folks do. Here's the blurb from today's news about deer gun season starting on Saturday:
GREEN BAY, Wis. (WBAY) - Wisconsin’s nine-day gun-deer hunt starts this Saturday, Nov. 18. It’s a tradition unlike any other.
More than half a million hunters will take to the woods and fields of Wisconsin, thinning the deer population, putting food on tables, and contributing $2 billion to the economies of communities across the state.
Hunting starts 30 minutes before sunrise on Saturday and ends 20 minutes after sunset on Sunday, Nov. 26. Times differ slightly depending on if you’re hunting in northern or southern Wisconsin.
The wolf hunting that seems to have prompted the law and lawsuit has a much smaller economic impact in Wisconsin than deer hunting. Native Americans asserting the hunting and fishing rights led to conflict from others, particularly over spear fishing which reduced catch limits in some bodies of water; some portion of the resolution appears to have been improving job opportunities from casinos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Walleye_War
The photographers/videographers may have a partial (or total) intent to interfere with the subject's lawful activities and destroy their peace of mind. Imagine the same situation with people going fishing... photographers/videographers near them, making noise and scaring away the fish.
Now imagine people who decide they want to interfere with the shooting of motion pictures or photography? Then photobomb photo/video shoots. I guess the Constitution protects the ability of people to be jerks. Problem is, if everyone starts acting like jerks then society will start to fall apart.
Imagine the same situation with people going fishing… photographers/videographers near them, making noise and scaring away the fish.
That's an old myth. You'd be surprised easy it is to catch fish from bridges with all sorts of loud and constant traffic going across them.
Walking on public land is a lawful activity too -- why should some armed people wandering around, many carrying alcohol as well as weaponry, be entitled to interfere with walking on public land by randomly firing guns?
The problem could be solved if Deer Season coincided with Photographer/Videographer Season with a single license for both types of game. Maybe the hunter won't be able to bag a deer...but they will have an alternate game animal. I am being sarcastic.
"I'm trying to shoot some film here!"
About 20 years out of date, but I get the point.
(Anyone here old enough to remember Fotomat?)
The court is probably right that the law as written is too vague to be enforceable. However, if the court doesn't allow some law to control partisans intent on harassing others who are engaged in legal activity, the people they are harassing will start taking matters into their own hands.
And when the people they are harassing are, by definition, armed and they're doing the harassing in a wilderness ... I think that falls in the same category as the no-baiting laws.
Like the law that was in place before 2016, when they amended it adding 1st Amendment issues and thus making it subject to judicial strict scrutiny?
Tying them to a tree and leaving them out overnight (with an appropriate overwatch for safety) sounds appropriate.
“Photographing, videotaping, audiotaping, or through other electronic means, monitoring or recording the activities of the person.”
Let’s say you and your buddy go out hunting. You want to ensure that you don’t get lost; your buddy takes a more laissez-faire approach to safety in the woods. You use your Garmin to track your movements (starting place, walk, etc.); at the end of the day’s adventures, you use the “return home” feature so that your watch will tell you where your car is.
Unless you read in intent to prevent hunting of animals, that would be a violation of the law, correct?
So it's also the "No Selfies for Hunters Act of 2016"?
No bears with video cameras, either.
One thing I am happy to see is that vagueness is still an important principle in this area of the law. Too many criminal statutes are too vague to know what you are not supposed to do.
>On its face, the text of the statute carves out no exemptions for monitoring and recording activities that aim to contribute to public discourse.
If it did contain such exemptions, couldn't the judge then say that those exemptions would make the statute content-based, and therefore illegal? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Be vewy vewy qwiet. Huh-huh-huh-huh-huh-huh.
I knew a group of individuals who would spread corn in designated areas open to hunters and call the state to claim someone was baiting the fields all of course to get the area to shut down.
I am not upset at the ruling but they don't enforce laws like this equally, all you have to do is see the limits on protesting at clinics.
It just shows how toxic our society has become when people stop respecting the lawful actions of others and there of course is the lack of respect for the property of others and destruction of both of these are enabled by the actions and lack of actions taken by politicians