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Second Amendment Roundup: NYC's "Good Moral Character" Requirement Void
An official may not deny the right to possess a firearm based on subjective criteria.
On Oct. 24, Judge John P. Cronan of the Southern District of New York rendered summary judgment in favor of an applicant for a license to possess firearms who had been denied for supposed inadequate "good moral character." The case is Srour v. City of New York.
There were actually two license denials, one for a license to possess a rifle or shotgun, the other to possess a handgun. The pre-Bruen denials recited Srour's alleged 28 moving violations and 30 driver's license suspensions (wow!) as "reflecting negatively on your moral character." After he filed his Second Amendment lawsuit, Bruen was decided. Srour then withdrew his as-applied challenge, rendering discovery unnecessary, and proceeded with his facial challenge.
The rule that a facial challenge can succeed only if a law is invalid in all applications, the court found, does not apply when the law implicates "fundamental rights protected by the Constitution. And as Bruen stated, "when the Second Amendment's plain text covers an individual's conduct, the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct."
The burden then shifts to the state to demonstrate that its restriction is consistent with America's history of firearm regulation. In footnote 6, Judge Cronan noted: "In their briefing, Defendants at times seem not to appreciate that it is their burden to come forward with evidence that the challenged regulations are consistent with our country's historical tradition of firearm regulation." He then quotes two passages in which the City tried to flip the burden upside down.
First, the City observed that "plaintiff's memorandum is devoid of citations to source material, statutes, historical analysis, or historical legal precedent to support the assertion that governments did not require individuals to seek permission to keep or bear firearms." Very true, as the plaintiff had no such obligation.
Second, the City added: "Nor does plaintiff provide any historical analysis or contemporary statements regarding the ratification of the Second Amendment to support the conclusory assertion that the challenged regulations are 'entirely inconsistent with this Nation's traditional history of firearm regulation.'" Again, true, but it was the City's burden to show the ordinance to be consistent with the Nation's history of firearm regulations. Thank you for those insights, Captain Obvious.
The City went on to argue that the Second Amendment applies only to "responsible" and "law-abiding" persons, thus excluding persons who lack "good moral character." But that failed to distinguish the conduct at issue, which is possession of a firearm, and the regulation of that conduct. As the court observed, "Under Defendants' theory, the government would be able to skirt a court's analysis of the history and tradition of firearm regulation, as required by Bruen, merely by roping the actual regulation into the individual's conduct." The state could manipulate the Second Amendment by choosing a label to determine whom to exclude from "the people."
Given that possession of a firearm for a lawful purpose is within the plain text of the Second Amendment, the court next asked whether the "good moral character" requirement is consistent with the Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation. The ordinance listed various factors for the character determination, including arrests, convictions, "a poor driving history," "a lack of candor toward lawful authorities," "and/or other good cause for the denial of the permit." One could hear echoes of the "may issue" law that Bruen struck down.
As the court went on to explain, the concepts of "good moral character" and "good cause" are subjective. "Someone may be deemed to have good moral character by one person, yet a very morally flawed character by another. Such unfettered discretion is hard, if not impossible, to reconcile with Bruen." And it goes without saying that no historical analogues exist for such a law.
The City referred generally to historical laws that prohibited "dangerous or potentially dangerous" persons from possession of a firearm, but they were hardly analogous to vesting a discretionary power in a City official to deny the right to possess a firearm based on lack of "good moral character." The court noted: "Presumably, there were plenty of people at the time of our country's Founding who were considered to lack good moral character, but were not necessarily dangerous…."
The City cited the "usual suspect" laws that we hear in most litigation on the Second Amendment, but none of them are analogous. Yes, there were times when persons who refused to take a loyalty oath were disarmed. But such requirements "provided an objective criterion for an administering official to assess: did the person make the oath or not?" That was a far cry from a municipal official subjectively deciding a person's character.
The City next cited the surety laws, but they only empowered an official to require a surety before release from detention, not permanently to deprive a person of firearms. Indeed, as Bruen made clear, "surety laws that restricted the carry of firearms presumed that individuals had a right to public carry, which could be burdened only by a specific showing of reasonable fear of an injury or breach of the peace." By contrast, the City's ordinance entailed denial of the right to possess a firearm in the first instance based on the subjective character determination.
Finally, some eighteenth-century laws punished affrayers who would go or ride armed offensively, to the terror of others. But the ordinance here applied to anyone seeking to possess a firearm.
Based on the above analysis, Judge Cronan declared the "good moral character" criterion facially unconstitutional. He also found that Mr. Srour suffered irreparable injury by being denied his Second Amendment rights, that the City had no interest in enforcement of an unconstitutional law, and that the public interest is served by ensuring that constitutional rights are upheld. He thus issued a permanent injunction against the provision, which he briefly stayed to give the City the option to seek a stay pending appeal.
Srour is not the first decision to find a "good moral character" requirement unconstitutional. In its "get revenge" law enacted against Bruen, the state of New York required that no firearm license shall be issued except for an applicant "of good moral character, which, for the purposes of this article, shall mean having the essential character, temperament and judgement necessary to be entrusted with a weapon and to use it only in a manner that does not endanger oneself or others…."
New York requires a license to possess a handgun in one's dwelling or place of business, to carry a concealed handgun, or to possess an antique pistol (!).
In Antonyuk v. Hochul (N.D. N.Y. 2022), Judge Glenn T. Suddaby wrote the following about the state's requirement:
shouldering an applicant with the burden of persuading a license officer that he or she is of "good moral character" based on the officer's undefined assessments of "temperament," "judgment" and "[ ]trust[ ]" (in the face of a de facto presumption that he or she is not) is akin to shouldering an applicant with the burden of persuading a license officer that he or she has a special need for self-protection distinguishable from that of the general community (an equally mushy and subjective finding). The "good moral character" requirement is just a dressed-up version of the State's improper "special need for self-protection" requirement.
Judge Suddaby rejected the state's historical arguments and issued a preliminary injunction against use of the character requirement in issuance of licenses. The Second Circuit stayed the injunction. The appeal was argued in that court on March 20, 2023. No decision has been issued. Given that the City's ordinance differs in language somewhat from that of the state, it is unclear the extent to which the decision in Antonyuk will affect what happens in an appeal of Srour.
Aside from its context in firearm laws such as the above, the concept of "good moral character" appears in other areas of the law. A requirement for naturalization as an American citizen is "good moral character," which is defined primarily to exclude persons with criminal records and other negative characteristics. Many of the factors are objective, but to the extent some are not, it may not matter constitutionally, given that the subject persons are aliens, not citizens.
"Good moral character" requirements also exist to obtain licenses to practice many professions, from barbering to bricklaying to lawyering. The California State Bar defines "good moral character" as having "the qualities of honesty, fairness, candor, trustworthiness, observance of fiduciary responsibility, respect for and obedience to the law, and respect for the rights of others and for the judicial process…." That's probably pretty normal for state bars, but leave it to the Golden State to allow that "there is no criminal act that disqualifies an applicant from receiving a positive moral character determination, given a sufficient showing of rehabilitation." Charlie Manson might have applied. Moreover, "criminal acts not involving moral turpitude, such as some acts of civil disobedience," don't qualify, just be sure it's the right political cause.
So "good moral character" is likely here to stay in many contexts, and it may be applied consistent with due process if defined with specificity. But it has no place where an official is empowered to determine whether a person is entitled to exercise a constitutional right.
In the firearms field, states with "shall issue" laws have done away with that language in favor of very specific criteria, such as types of crime, mental illness, and illegal alien status. As Justice Kavanaugh wrote in his Bruen concurrence, "43 States employ objective shall-issue licensing regimes," which "do not grant open-ended discretion to licensing officials and do not require a showing of some special need apart from self-defense."
Keep your fingers crossed on what the Second Circuit may say about "good moral character" in Antonyuk, and what may happen thereafter in Srour.
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Is there a two-day waiting period, after a couple of prominent and lethal mass shootings, before gun enthusiasts resume pushing gun nuttery?
Thank goodness gun absolutists aligned with the losing end of the culture war and are destined to pay the same price that anti-abortion absolutists, white nationalists, religious kooks seeking endless special privilege, xenophobes, gay-bashers, and other culture war casualties will experience.
I hope the predictable mainstream backlash against gun nuttery does not overrun a right to possess a reasonable firearm for self-defense in the home, but if that occurs the gun nuts will have themselves to blame.
In case you have not noticed, murder us already illegal.
with pretty severe penalties in certain jurisdictions
At least on paper. The real question is why are Dem governors so into massive resistance to Supreme court rulings. Is Hochul a distant relative to George Wallace or Orval Faubus?
It's pretty much a straight line from the racist Democrat Governors that fought the Civil Rights legislation, to Hochul, Pritzker, Newsome and their ilk.
They promise minorities everything ... then deliver terrible schools, violent streets and now, closing their neighborhood parks and field houses to house illegal immigrants in their "Welcoming Sanctuary Cities".
If you want to see real entertainment, check out some of the videos of the Chicago aldermen having meetings with their angry constituents. The police had to escort them out for safety reasons when the voters realized the meetings were just for show, the deals had already been done.
"They promise minorities everything"
Actually the straight line is from the Confederacy to Jim Crow to the 'minorities as client race' narrative.
White conservatives fearing cities as liberal hellholes and whitesplaining to minorities who to blame is really becoming a thing, eh?
Yes, but what qualifies as murder is the issue.
Kirkland, what you may not know about the Lewiston shooting is that both venues were "gun free zones." Maine law prohibits possessing a gun in any places that possesses a license to serve alcohol, regardless of it actually is being served at the time (and the bowling alley is licensed to serve beer).
That's why you had one guy go after the perp with a knife and another his bare hands -- it was all the law allowed them to have.
If the schmuck had shot up a supermarket, someone would have shot back and there'd be at least a dozen fewer fatalities.
17A MRSA 1057
https://legislature.maine.gov/statutes/17-A/title17-Asec1057.html
They even have those "Gun Free" signs in supposedly free states like Georgia, Florida, and Texas. Like George S. Patton said, when he pinned on his 3rd star early "They have their rules, and I have mine"
I carry everywhere except the Airport and if I ever have to go to a Courthouse (funny, don't do bad things and you don't have to go to Courthouses often) I wouldn't there. (Of course one of Atlanta's most scandalous murders was a Rapist who beat up a Black Female Deputy, took her weapon, murdered the Judge, Clerk, another Deputy and a US Customs agent before he surrendered, got a "Life" sentence.)
Usually S&W Model 19 2.5 Inch .357 magnum with 125gr Hollow points, no speed loader, if I can't "Neutralize" the bad guy with 6 rounds, not like another 6 will help.
For home, Remington 870 Police with 3" magnum shells (Recommended by Parkinsonian Joe!) and a Model 28 4 inch .357, depending on the circumstances.
Frank
Our County Courthouse used to have an area where you could place your carry weapon in a locker and lock it up before going through security. A DA who openly stated that there was no such thing as "self defense" had the area removed.
One thing is that is is pretty hard to find a recent "mass shooting" happening in an area that wasn't a "gun free zone".
Are bowling alleys and bars "gun-free zones"?
Unknown in this case.
In Maine it's illegal to carry guns in an establishment licensed to serve alcohol if it's posted that you can't carry guns.
There's no official reporting on whether or not the bar and bowling alley were posted, but internet chatter claims that they were.
While gun nuts are focusing on whether a bowling alley and pool hall exhibited posters requesting that gun nuts leave their weapons outside, rather than the misery and mayhem inflicted by yet another disaffected shooter, mainstream America continues to move toward the predictable, severe backlash against disaffected, bigoted, antisocial right-wing gun nuts.
Thank goodness gun absolutists chose to align politically with the culture war's roadkill.
Posting is one of the things that the state liquor inspector checks for.
Besides, lawful gun owners are lawful and know this law exists and hence wouldn't carry there anyway. A Class D Crime is serious -- up to 364 days in jail.
Internet chatter being so reliable--so reliable, in fact, jimc5499 took it as read that both the Maine bowling alley and bar were "gun-free zones", resulting in his highly questionable claim.
They obviously weren't in Lewiston
Uh, Ed, when people are high on alcohol they can often become violent. Not a good idea for the safety of all to let those apes have guns while high. But in your scenario, if the bars in Maine were gun-filled, you'd probably have shooting deaths every week. Instead, Maine, like Alaska, gets one mass shooting in the last ten years. So it appears to be a good system. But that doesn't work for you, does it?
This is a good argument for prohibiting carry while intoxicated but just because alcohol is served does not mean every customer is drinking. Some might just be bowling.
That argument would work equally work with respect to divorce courtrooms.
One of the best things about right-wing gun nuts is their lack of self-awareness. It makes them easier to stomp in the culture war.
LOL at the least self-aware clinger trying to lecture others on 'self-awareness'.
Carry on, Meat.
By law, the (on duty) employees are *not* drinking. Sometimes that rule gets bent, particularly by sketchy places in really rural areas, but these were reputable establishments in a city with its own police department -- and "family friendly" places. One was having an activities night for the deaf, the other a children's bowling league.
This law (read the footnotes) was first passed in 1995 as part of the anti-gun hysteria of the early 1990s -- prior to that it didn't exist
So for the SIXTY YEARS between when Prohibition was repealed and 1995, it was perfectly legal to walk into a bar with a gun -- and lots and lots of people routinely did. Police officers would (in uniform) at the end of their shifts -- long guns were frowned on but lots of trappers would openly carry sidearms as they came in for a drink (and to warm up) before heading home. And most bartenders had a shotgun safely stored under the bar -- and never used it (except for the occasional rabid animal in the parking lot.
Remember that state troopers have patrol areas larger than the size of the State of Rhode Island and it can take 2-3 hours for a response sometimes -- worse if it is snowing and they can't go 80 MPH.
Something like this never happened.
All through the turmoil and tumult of the 1970s, this never happened. Never happened.
And what would have happened back then would have been OTHER armed persons (not just men) shooting Card if he tried something like this -- and he would have known it.
Wow, that's stupid on so many levels. Let's start with 'you don't get "high" on alcohol.' It's a depressant. If anything, you get 'low' on it.
Then let's go to the full analogy - lots of bad things can happen when you're intoxicated. You, for example, become a very dangerous driver (a danger statistically far greater than intoxicated gun carriers). Yet we do not ban everyone in the bar from having car keys regardless of the amount they have been (or not been) drinking.
Looking back not that far in history, Maine (and every other state) had bars that were gun-filled (or at least, where carry was not barred) and yet we very notably do not find records of "shooting deaths every week". Instead, we find about the same or even a slightly lower level of violent crime than we see in the records today.
So, no, nothing about your fallacy-filled rant works for us.
Instead, Maine, like Alaska, gets one mass shooting in the last ten years.
"Mass shootings" aren't generally carried out by drunks.
It is perhaps worth noting that Dr. Ed is, predictably, wrong: as his own link indicates, carrying is only prohibited if the establishment chooses to prohibit it, or if the carrier is intoxicated.
OK -- in Maine there is what the law actually says and what people think it says, and people THINK it says "no guns."
I'd want to go to the regulations -- both of the Alcohol Commission and the Dept of Human Service (restaurant licenseure ) and even then I'd want to go at the underwriting policies of the insurance companies which may well require such a gun ban as a precondition of insuring an establishment.
I am not an attorney but I have been reading (and trying to understand) Maine laws for the past 40 years and for the revisor of statutes to put the headline that appears there it indicates that it is UNDERSTOOD that such a sign will be posted -- for other reasons not stated here.
Maybe it's just a free choice you have to make in order to keep your liquor license. Maine IS that corrupt....
Kirkland is the boy rightly mocked on the playground grown up to be the kneejerk contrarian who sees the playground bully everywhere. Ignore him
You mean like the guy in this case was trying to do?
LOL, Meat.
Remember, your betters are watching.
And, taking notes.
Hard to believe that "shall not be infringed" is such a confusing phrase to some people.
Hard to believe that "A well regulated Militia" is such a confusing phrase to some people.
I'm betting it doesn't mean what you think it means, for starters, so yes, it is a confusing phrase. You may also not know how a prefatory clause works either.
It's not a confusing phrase for anybody who actually understands English grammar. Granted, that's a declining fraction of the population, the schools apparently having higher priorities than teaching the subjects they're nominally devoted to.
It turns out that prefatory clauses are not meaningless surplusage intended to be ignored.
Its not totally meaningless, it references Congress' article 1 authority to arm the militia to justify making the right to keep and bear arms a federal question.
Your reading would make the entire 2nd amendment surplusage, because there is absolutely nothing under your reading of the 2nd amendment that article 1 doesn't already allow.
I don’t think you know what my reading of the Second Amendment actually is.
"Well-regulated" means something different today than it meant in 1790 in this context. (It meant, effectively, well-trained and well-supplied.) Also, the "militia" is every adult male (and that's still basically true today, even as a matter of law, excepting only that there's an upper age given now). Failing to understand those things leads to drastic misreadings of that clause, even as a preferatory clause.
So if anything, the militia clause suggests *everyone* should be armed.
Exactly.
This is where the lost art of sentence diagraming comes in really handy.
An enlarged Supreme Court could find that clause important just as easily as the clingers -- relatively recently -- determined it was inconsequential.
Not if they know any English Grammar, they don’t. This isn’t Orwell’s 1984. You don’t get to redefine the language. Words mean things, and you don’t get to make it up as you go.
Besides they can pronounce anything they want. Try to enforce it.
You'll find the people outnumber them 100 to 1. We're not subjects to be ruled over. They are only legitimate so long as they are seen that way.
Get an education, clinger. Backwater religious schooling does not count.
LOL, Meat.
I'm enjoying reading your ignorant postings and your futile effort to look sentient.
Carry on.
C'mon (man!) you remember when Parkinsonian Joe was at the Constitutional Convention and he wrote the Second Amendment,
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, except for excessive Driver's license Suspensions"
Frank
Is anyone under the impression that a "good moral character" requirement would be enforced in an even-handed manner?
Not me.
In most "May Issue" states (where you must prove your desperate need and moral character to local Law Enforcement) it has a remarkable statistical relationship to campaign contributions for Sheriff's office. By sheer coincidence ... of course.
What about skin color?
Sure was the case in Denver, before the state went to Shall Issue. The Sheriff there is appointed by the Mayor, and probably approved by the City Council. So, their family, close friends, and big campaign contributors, got CPL licenses. As well as ex LEOs. Pretty much no one else. On the other hand, the Sheriff of El Paso County (CO Spgs) was issuing them to most anyone with a clean record. Most of the rest of the Sheriffs in the state did the same.
What do you think, it'll only go to Democrats? White People? What is your concern?
I'm open to the idea that it's not permissible (though it does sound old timey enough to pass the current pseudo originalist smell test), but pre-assuming bad implementation without even specifying in what fashion it would be bad isn't right.
Were literacy tests enforced in an even-handed manner?
Once again: *against or in favor of what group?*
You're making his point - gun control laws have deeply racist roots and remain deeply racist in their implementation.
Guilt by association is shitty when applied to people, it's idiotic when applied to laws.
Your handwaiving doesn't include an actual even speculative uneven enforcement. Do you think NYC will only give licenses to whites?
I probably agree that this is not a clear enough standard, but come up with a better argument than this.
Literacy tests.
They would be good- if enforced in an even handed manner.
Experience tells us otherwise.
Literacy tests were racist, they were not even handed; that's baked into their whole thing.
Fucking answer how you think the hand on the scale would go.
If you just think there should be no restrictions, say that.
This hypothetical future prejudiced enforcement is nonsense.
Would they be given in English or Spanish?
This lot is fatally stupid, Sarcastr0. Don't let their idiocy get you frustrated or you'll be eternally frustrated.
You seem to be uncomfortable with the history of the use of literacy tests when it came to restricting voting.
Would restricting voting to those of "good moral character" be enforced in an even-handed manner?
You bit! Great. Let's enumerate how stupid you are.
1. Literacy is an objective measure. It's a problem for a whole different reason.
2. Minorities had lower rates of literacy. That's why there was a literacy test. Who are you suggesting would have lower rates of good moral character? That's Sarcastr0's whole question.
3. Let's assume it's conservatives, or some other group you have sympathy for. I might be forced to agree with you, they have lower moral character.
4. But probably you'll say it doesn't matter who gets shafted, the subjective standard means someone will. Why? We have lots of subjective standards in this country that we expect to be fairly applied. Why, with no evidence, is this one no good?
5. By continuing to double-down without answering, you're just letting us point out these modes of your stupidity over and over.
Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.
Statistically, yes, NYC did give licenses almost exclusively to those both rich and well-connected to the NYC government. And, yes, statistically those people were heavily skewed to affluent white democrats.
You don't like the answer but it's not "guilt by association", it's "fruit of the poisoned tree". A law of such obviously racist roots should at best be viewed with great skepticism.
Wait, are you arguing disparate impact now?
Literacy tests were intentional discrimination.
No new goalposts.
If you just think there should be no restrictions, say that.
There should be no restrictions of fundamental rights based upon subjective criteria.
Why not limit the entire Bill of Rights to those of "good moral character"?
I'm not the one moving the goalposts. Gun control laws were also intentional discrimination.
Either you've lost track of your original point or the rest of us have completely failed to understand it. It looks like you're trying to argue that intentionally-racist literacy tests were bad but equally-racist gun control laws are good because ... reasons?
What if they only give licenses to Blacks? Is that ok to you?
It matters what group it would penalize? It doesn't matter that it penalizes a skin color - just what color of skin it penalizes?
A few years back we had several counties in California that only issued a LTC to people who were "important" enough or connected to people in power. This was confirmed after having their records subpoenaed.
No one is "...pre-assuming bad implementation...". It has happened before and only dishonesty would allow someone to assume it wouldn't happen again.
Of course, you can play the same card that courts do when it comes to qualified immunity. "But that was a different law. It is completely different from this law because reasons!" Please don't tell me you are going to resort to that.
Then there was Santa Clara which issued CCW licenses to Apple Security in exchange for computers supplied to the Sheriff's department.
In New York City?
I really fail to see gun ownership, and especially public carry, in a city with 8 million residents and the fastest police response time in the country as a right.
The idea of the courts, one particularly, deciding the precise scope of the rights protected by section 1 of the 14th amendment is deeply unrepublican. If we can't get judges to reassume their proper role, and stop trying to be arbiters of morality, Congress should use the tools that it has to deal with the matter.
"I really fail to see gun ownership, and especially public carry, . . . as a right."
I fail to see that any government has been given the power to prohibit gun ownership. Some governments have reserved time, place, and manner restrictions, and for the most part those are not at issue here.
No constitution is a suicide pact, and state legislatures have all been given a general right to make law in the public interest. The two questions to be answered are: Is the regulation made inconsistent with fundamental general law? and: Is the state legislature's answer objectively wrong, or can "the ablest and purest" disagree? (Quoting Justice Iredell)
Yes.
Oregon, for example, used its police powers to excluded Black people from migrating into the state.
In fact, this was written into their highest state law.
In this case, the “general welfare” as seen by the legislature is subordinated to the US Constitution.
"The idea of the courts, one particularly, deciding the precise scope of the rights protected by section 1 of the 14th amendment is deeply unrepublican."
What are courts supposed to do, exactly?
Enforce the law. Their power comes from the fact that no one else can make them do it (judicial independence) - giving them the ability to ignore something they consider void. But from the early republic until well after the 14th amendment was adopted, judicial review was seen as a reserve power; something to be deployed in clear cases.
What should they have done in Brown v. Board of Education?
How can they enforce the law if they can't say what the law is?
And isn't it the executive's job to enforce the law? Not the courts?
Your failure to see is your failure. It means nothing more.
True. But that is because there is only one of me.
If I can convince enough Americans, Congress can strip jurisdiction in gun-related cases arising under the 14th. This doesn't abrogate the constitution, but it would leave interpretation of what fundamental rights are, what is a proper regulation, and which right prevails if two are in conflict, to the states.
Nameless - FYI - Congress cant override the constitution.
Neither can courts.
With the exception of SCOTUS' original jurisdiction, Congress does decide what cases federal courts can hear. If courts are interpreting the constitution wrongly, Congress could remove jurisdiction (wouldn't affect past cases, as they can't abrogate a valid judgement).
Local man loudly proclaims his idiosyncratic idea of how the Constitution works as a death pact.
Congress can strip jurisdiction. They've done so many times. How is that idiosyncratic?
This means Congress can strip federal courts of jurisdiction over lawsuits about racial segregation.
The Lewiston Police were on scene at the bowling alley in 90 *seconds* -- they happened to be training nearby.
90 seconds is a damn good response time -- but not quick enough to catch the perp, let alone save anyone's life.
What's true in one location might not be true in another. What is good for Times Square is not good for rural Montana.
So separate but equal?
Your opinion about this will become relevant when you get a chance to write a constitution, I suppose. Right now we're not discussing whether or not it should be a right, but instead whether or not it is a right.
And somebody else wrote the constitution in question, not you.
Public carry, though, isn't part of the right.
What do you think "bear" means?
Bring to bear in a military context.
Not what the SC says.
Egregiously Wrong.
Thank you Mr. Justice Randal.
In dissent.
As in bearing children to serve in the militia when they come of age?
The Magi were bearing assault weapons as gifts for Jesus?
Johnson's dictionary in 1773 said it had so many meanings it was hard to describe:
To BEAR. v.a. pret. I bore, or bare; part. pass. bore, or born. [beoran, beran, Sax. bairan, Gothick. It is sounded as bare, as the are in care and dare.]
1. This is a word used with such latitude, that it is not easily explained.
We say to bear a burden, to bear sorrow or reproach, to bear a name, to bear a grudge, to bear fruit, or to bear children. The word bear is used in very different senses."
And actually "bring to bear" uses a completely different meaning of bear as in "bear west":
"Also, find one's bearings. Figure out one's position or situation relative to one's surroundings. For example, She's still new to the company and needs time to find her bearings, or I'll be along soon; just wait till I get my bearings. Naturally, one can also lose one's bearings, as in After we missed the turnpike exit, we completely lost our bearings. These phrases use bearings in the sense of “relative position,” a usage dating from the 1600s."
I'm just talking about the meaning of "bear arms." The concept of bearing arms, back in the day, was military in nature. You didn't "bear arms" to go hunting, for example.
Randal
That is flat out wrong
A) the term bear arms included, but wasnt limited to, serving in a militia
B) there is zero language in 2A limiting the right to only when serving in the militia
C) there is zero historical evidence, contemporary writing or any other historical documentation that mentions any limitation on the right to keep and bear arms to only when serving in the militia.
Even the resident historical expert "stephen lanthrop" acknowledges that you cant reach a conclusion from the absence of historical documentation which is exactly the position taken that the 2A right is limited to only when serving in the militia.
Something tells me you don't understand the original meaning of "militia" either.
The meaning wasn't limited to military in nature,
Randal – I also noticed you failed to address the other points.
Tell us what historical writing existed which limited the right to only when serving in the militia.
Note – ” the right of the people ” is just the opposite of a limitation
I don't know what "only while serving in a militia" even means. So I definitely don't think whatever thought you're attributing to me.
That the interpretation of stevens dissent and the position you are stating.
Ie the right to keep and bear arms is only protected when serving in the militia.
At all others times it is a privilege granted by the government.
Pay attention to the argument you are advancing
Well, I'm not advancing Stevens's dissent, which I don't entirely agree with.
And then plus, this "while serving in a militia" idea isn't what the dissent says anyway.
You need a better talking point.
Randal 10 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Well, I’m not advancing Stevens’s dissent, which I don’t entirely agree with.
And then plus, this “while serving in a militia” idea isn’t what the dissent says anyway.
You need a better talking point."
Randal
That is exactly what the dissent claims - that the right to keep and bear arms is only protected while serving in the militia.
Try to read the dissent
It simply doesn't say that. I've read it. I could quote the whole thing to prove it, but that seems ridiculous. Why don't you quote the part that you think does say that?
It doesn't say 'bring to bear' though. It says keep and bear.
Or do you think it protects your right to point the gun at random people - but not actually carry it?
"Bring" includes the carrying part.
It means you can own a specially trained combat bear. Grizzlies require a permit, though.
A chance to interpret, not to write. And I elect people, and can be in dialogue with them as they consider legislation. Rights interpretation is primarily a legislative task - it's at the core of their work, really.
We're discussing whether and to what extent general law makes it a right, and to what extent it allows restriction. The 14th created no new law, as Baude and Sachs recently wrote.
In the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, judicial review was thought of as a reserve power. Hence the universal language to the effect that statutes were to be presumed valid unless it could be shown to the contrary beyond reasonable doubt. Iredell, the father of judicial review, insisted that it was for clear cases (Marbury was one, according to him). From Lochner to Roe to Lemon to Bruen, Scotus has shown entirely the wrong attitude towards its job.
re: "Rights interpretation is primarily a legislative task"
No, not at all. Rights are documented in constitutions specifically to constrain legislation. If legislators could simply interpret away anything they disagreed with today, it would defeat the entire purpose.
I will agree that through the 18th and most of the 19th centuries, judicial review was a reserve power but that's because the legislature voluntarily respected the constitutional constraints (mostly). Judicial review increased as a result of legislative overstepping.
Nicole Simpson and Rob Goldman disagree
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!
This was for possession in one's home.
You can work to amend the constitution then, which states the exact opposite.
Where does the 14th amendment say that?
What about warrants? Are they no longer right on NYC either?
Halbrook, the other gun-loving conspirators and all of their second amendment fetishist follower now have the blood of 18 downeasters on their hands. Given this event, the title of Halbrook's book is obscene.
Oh really?
Explain how.
1: “DownEast” is a DIRECTION and not a location.
2: Lewiston is upriver.
3: They’re dead because of 17A MRSA 1057.
Have you removed your penis to stop rapes?
You missed a bit of news: https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/lewiston-maine-mass-shootings-victims/
You missed having anything like a point, as usual. Should you require "good moral character" before being able to speak in public or travel or own property? Was the Maine shooter psychiatrically committed during the summer, and otherwise known to have exhibit specific red flags that could (and probably should) have justified revocation of his right to bear arms?
Yes, he was. The Democrat run Maine fucked up.
I know another individual who was "Psychiatrically Committed" recently, with a history of irresponsible behavior with firearms.
Anyone know if Pennsylvania Senator S-S-S-S-S-t-t-t-tuttering John Fetterman still owns any guns? I don't think Senators have to go through metal detectors, and with those baggy shorts he could have a friggin Mossberg 930 SPX in there
I hear that the Rev. Kirkland and LawTalkingGuy use firearms as anal probes in the showers with Sandusky and his boys.
These bigoted gun nuts are your fans, Volokh Conspirators . . . and the reason you are no longer welcome on campuses outside the clingerverse.
No more or less than commenters here show justification to revoke their right to free speech.
This blog imposes viewpoint-driven censorship, which it is entitled to do.
This blog does not censor graphic calls for violence against liberals, vile racial slurs, and plenty of other bigoted comments, however.
Carry on, clingers.
Speaking of missing news, is this guy's translation right?
https://www.silentlunch.net/p/did-the-entire-media-industry-misquote
If so, it suggests that the general media are even less reliable about facts than Hamas.
Yeah, 500 is so ridiculously different than 471.
Why did David Zweig fail to mention the latter figure at all, I wonder?
Congratulations on your successful completion to the Queen's course in obfuscation and dissembling as shown by your comment.
You didn't find it interesting that Zweig omitted any reference to the "true" figure while excoriating the meedja for using the "false" one?
I didn't think his point about the lazy meedja was really worth discussing.
"“Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.
In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.”
– Michael Crichton (1942-2008)"
Anybody that surprised must be suffering from a severe case of Gell-Mann amnesia. I don't think there IS a topic today where the MSM actually care about getting the details right. Hasn't been for years.
Let's see.
Involuntarily committed to a mental hospital is a firearms disabler. His family warned police and military he was having a "mental health crisis." If only governments did their current jobs.
Do you think that’s constitutional?
Good question.
Should such a disability be for life?
Are there sufficient due process procedures for those who challenge the notion that they are insane?
Maine resident Stephen King commented in the NYT a day ago. He was in despair, saying that this nation is in love with guns, and thus will never do anything to control gun violence.
Given the idiocy of Bruen; the folly to encourage multi-flavored historical pretenses, retailed variously as if they were an array of constraints to limit judicial discretion; and a results-mad corrupt partisan judiciary, King has a point. But I do not believe his despair must be permanent.
This nation’s gun-crazy constituency—considered as a percent of the population at various times—is probably not now at its zenith. Especially, gun craziness will not pass efficiently to younger generations of Americans now about to inherit political power.
All along, purely abstract pro-gun advocacy—the maximal sort which demands gun freedom without limit, and with no regard to practical consequences—has typically been a minoritarian kind of advocacy. It has been favored mostly by racists, by people with emotional problems, by a subset of rural separatists who by no means speak for rural people generally, and by right-wing minority political factions in search of emotionally powerful swing-vote leverage.
Fortunately, those kinds of advocacy never got much of a foothold among people who use guns the most, such as the professional military, and civilians who hunt game frequently. Instead, they have coalesced around a more-recently burgeoning urban/suburban gun-range culture. That in turn has been supported by an array of popular publications and online targeted gun promotions, such as Halbrooks’. They market guns, in part by teaching amateur gun pedantry as if it were an entree to elite social status, at least among like-minded gun demanders.
In recent decades, that minoritarian kind of political advocacy has gained strength. It has increasingly been backed systematically and lucratively, with an eye to making it politically potent despite the will of opposed majorities. It has been crafted into a centerpiece of partisan minoritarian identity, featuring fear and social resentment as selling points.
It is as if minority-protective features of American constitutionalism, designed to run in parallel, have instead been re-wired in series, as mutual force multipliers. The voltage may be up, but the overall power is probably in actual decline.
Younger American citizens who are about to inherit political power do not seem likely to fully replenish a gun rights tradition which has too much separated itself from long-customary bastions. Those always included military preparedness, and outdoor recreation. Not much in today’s screen-mad youth culture feeds into that older tradition, let alone into the blind-to–mass-random killings culture which replaced it.
The key to hope for Stephen King, and for America’s actual majority, will be to organize a political movement to reform over-reliance on minoritarian constitutionalism. Structural protections for minority rights were never intended as a lever to lift minority governance to dominance over majorities. That is a principle which wise advocates who are actually conversant with American history and tradition ought to rely upon, to refresh, and to renew.
Can you explain why a standard 17 round magazine in a Glock 17 is necessary for civilian law enforcement officer self-defense, but is both unnecessary and dangerous to be possessed by other civilians?
Because too many cops can't shoot straight?
Because few people under stress can do the job with the first four shots.
In more efficient language: guns are losing their appeal in the USA.
I don't know if it's true, but it wouldn't surprise me. However, if Sandy Hook, Uvalde and Las Vegas can't jump start that "movement", I think you may be waiting a long time before the 2nd Amendment is repealed or revised.
"losing their appeal"?
Considering the NICS check system has hit record highs several times in just the past 3 years, with most of them 1st time gun owners, it doesn't look like they'll "lose their appeal" anytime soon.
Plus, every time the Democrats demand a new gun ban or try and introduce legislation, the NICS numbers shoot up again for several months. Their "brain trust" still haven't been able to figure out why that happens?
Maybe since Kamala took over from Barack as the nation's best gun sales person?
The Second Amendment doesn't need to be repealed or revised. We just need to return to its original meaning, which is best articulated in Miller. To be fair, it's not particularly well-articulated even in Miller. But at least that one isn't Egregiously Wrong like Heller and Bruen.
Wait. Are you really advocating for Miller to be the controlling authority for the 2nd Amendment? Handguns with standard capacity magazines, fully automatic rifles and carbines, 50 BMGs, etc.?
Yes. But they have to stay on your property, except maybe for taking them back and forth to militia training.
That ought to cut way down on mass shootings.
I think it might. The military has lots of weapons, but they don’t get used in a lot of mass shootings. A gun culture focused more on the actual point, a well regulated militia, would I think be less susceptible to crazies.
Ummm...if Whacko Wally can buy 'fully automatic rifles and carbines, 50 BMGs, etc.', but it's just illegal for him to take them to the scene of a mass shooting, that will eliminate all mass shootings by whackos who are willing to engage in mass murder but are not willing to break transport laws. I suspect that's a pretty small set of people; most people willing to engage in murder will also be willing to break the transport laws.
OTOH, if you are saying something different - that we will only allow gun ownership by people carefully screened and approved by the government for membership in a select militia like the National Guard, then that negates one of the purposes of the 2A. Given Sutherland Springs, Ft. Hood, and now Lewiston, it's not all that clear being vetted by the government is all that foolproof.
I do, though, think that resurrecting a militia would be a great idea. One of the real heartbreaking Katrina stories was that an unflooded hospital had to close because junkies kept raiding the pharmacy. I remember thinking that I could have gotten the 6 oldest members of the local rod-n-gun club, so people far into geezerhood, issued them a Garand and bandolier of ammo[1], and they could have kept the junkies from closing the hospital. It's just nuts we don't maintain that capability.
[1]Of course, they all have their own accurized Garands for the Service Rifle matches, so you wouldn't even need to issue them.
I think the Second Amendment has to allow people to own guns by default, but that doesn't mean AK-47s have to be available on demand at WalMart.
...and they aren't.
And to wax on...it is unfortunate that every discussion of guns has become so polarized. In the days before Shall Issue became the norm, there were a lot of (usually rural) sheriffs who would approve 90+% of applicants, but had the discretion to deny Mean Drunk Mike, who everyone knew routinely got tanked and went looking for fights. If that had been a universal norm, Shall Issue would never had gotten the traction it did. But the sheriffs who denied 99% of the applicants ruined it for all of us. Similarly, the post-Bruen laws in, say, NY aren't people getting on board with the notion that we want guns to be generally available to reasonable people; they are an attempt to deny them as much as possible to everyone. When you have a history, and current practice, of unreasonable regulations, that makes people want to remove your discretion. If you want to keep reasonable discretion, you need to use it wisely.
Please tell me where the 2nd Amendment or the Miller decision limits use and carry to militia activities.
Mosley, the 2A does not do that. But it does extend federal protection of gun rights to militia-related activities, and only to those. Gun rights unrelated to militia activities get protected by the states, or perhaps by other non-federal jurisdictions.
To be clear, I realize that what I said above is not the law as the Supreme Court now interprets it. As far as anyone has ever shown historically, what I said is the original meaning.
Nor was it the law as described in Miller.
How so?
For someone advocating a "return" to Miller, you seem remarkably ill-informed about what that decision actually said.
But then you seem to be reacting to Heller and Bruen based on your fantasies rather than the actual readings so I suppose you at least get points for consistency.
If you have an actual disagreement, why don't you make an argument? I've read all three, I know what they say and don't say.
re: " I’ve read all three"
No, clearly you have not. But prove me wrong. Please copy-paste in the paragraph of US v Miller that says that weapons have to stay on your property except for transport to militia training.
Miller doesn't require a law along those lines to be passed, but it doesn't proscribe it either.
In other words, the Miller framework requires more dangerous weapons to be available, but it allows those weapons to be more tightly regulated, than the Heller / Bruen framework.
There is some truth to what he wrote.
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/how-the-gun-control-debate-ignores-black-lives/80445/
the article also mentions Operation: Ceasefire, which actually reduced murders in Boston by almost one-half!
Big deal. The 2nd Circuit will stay the injunction, and then take 8-12 months to hear the case, just like they're doing with the "sensitive places" case.
And Alito, Thomas and Gorscuh would vote to overturn that, but Brett "Drunk Irishman" Kavanagh, Amy "I adopted a Haitian baby" Barrett, and John "I care about my legacy in the eyes of the liberal media" Roberts will let it "percolate."
OK, I realize I’m probably the only M.D. (Medical Doctor, also been accused of being “Mentally Deranged”) here, and it’s been a while since I did ER work, but peoples get “Committed” all the time, usually for 72-96 hours depending on the state, and then unless they’re an obviously dangerous to the pubic (Senator Bob Menendez for example) they’re released, ever watch “One flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest”?? You used to be able to lock up people like Senator S-S-S-tuttering John Fetterman for years, but not since 1972 (this is a legal Blog? anyone heard of Wyatt V Stickney ???(Stickney was the State Shrink, good doc actually) So how’s it supposed to work, “OK Mr. Card, we’re releasing you, you know you aren’t allowed to own any firearms? do you have any?” are they gonna search his house, his boat? (an Army Reservist has a Boat? what a country!) Put his name in some data base that gun stores can access??(and unless you ban individuals selling guns, individuals would need to have access also, not like anyone would abuse it) You really think Hunter Biden doesn’t have any more guns lying around that he forgot about? Pretty sad when I’m the Adult in the room
Frank
Robert Card was committed to an institution for two weeks over the summer, according to news reports. It wasn't a garden-variety temporary hold. He claimed to be hearing voices and to be a threat to others.
It's possible that he would have refused to turn over his firearms, but his very recent history included lots of what we used to call red flags.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Not only should he not have had access to firearms, he should never have been released. While I concede that firearms make a dangerous person more dangerous, a dangerous person should not allowed to roam around us, gun or not.
Too bad this isn't Roosha (is this Roosha? this isn't Roosha) how was he "Dangerous"?? Should Johnny Depp and Madonna be locked up for threatening "45"?? umm, maybe you do have something there.
Frank
Someone who hears voices and talks about doing a shooting at a military base needs to be locked up. Period.
As does anyone who is stupid and mentally ill, which covers most Democrats. They think another man's hairy rectum is an oasis.
Involuntary commitment puts you in the NICS data base so he would not pass a background check. (Of course, you need to report that. The Sutherland Springs shooter was able to pass a background check because USAF failed to report involuntary commitment and domestic violence conviction.) He was cdisqualified. Police should have had no problem getting a search warrant for Card's home.
After Heller the First Circuit ruled that an involuntary commitment just based on a doctor's note was not good enough to trigger the federal gun ban. A hearing with procedural safeguards is required. The decision did not set out details of minimal safeguard, if I recall correctly, because it was only overruling the pre-Heller caselaw that said being held overnight for observation meant a permanent loss of gun rights.
We’re approaching “beyond a reasonable doubt” territory. A gun permit can be denied only if it can be established beyond a reasonable doubt that the applicant will use it to murder someone. And of course it’s impossible to predict the future with certainty as to what a specific individual will do, so even that might be dismissed as speculation with no case or controversy involved. The Supreme Court has already gone there with City of Los Angeles v. Lyons, 1983.
No, what we are approaching is "Minority Report" territory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film)
The film is set in Washington, D.C., and Northern Virginia in the year 2054, where Precrime, a specialized police department, apprehends criminals by use of foreknowledge provided by three psychics called "precogs".
The Philip K. Dick story was better than the movie; the precogs gave different predictions because the later predictions accounted for the effect of the earlier predictions.
Then it sounds like you need to attack this problem from a different angle, though I question whether you have the capacity to do so.
Here is a novel idea
Punish the murderers.
Most of them, such as this one, are dead. How do you want to punish them exactly?
I guess if you consider all of human history, most murderers would be dead.
That does not mean it is useless to punish murder.
What humans also do, since punishment isn't sufficient by itself, is take steps to make murdering harder. For example, by restricting access to poisons.
Which humans are free to do in any way believed to have a rational basis, in the absence of a Constitutional "right to keep and brew poisons".
In this topic, we learn that Stephen Hallbrook has no idea whether Charles Manson has good moral character unless a legislature provides a formula to determine it.
Manson had felony convictions. Clear standard.
Are the legislators who tried to evade in an obvious way, the Bruen decision of 'good moral character'?
Can you explain why a standard 17 round magazine in a Glock 17 is necessary for civilian law enforcement officer self-defense, but is both unnecessary and dangerous to be possessed by other civilians?
You must not be able to explain why one must take a course in driving, and pass a road exam, before one can legally drive a car.
Do police get to buy cars with torque or horsepower that are outright illegal for other civilians to buy? Or is your analogy terrible for reasons beyond the obvious license vs right aspect?
Or the aspect which recognizes that you don't need any kind of licence or registration to purchase or possess a motor vehicle on private property.
Captcrisis will now do a movie review.
Yes, I thought we were all familiar with the fact that a driver's license is specifically a license to operate certain motor vehicles on public roads, and that such a license is not required to operate vehicles on private property.
Possession is usually regulated by vehicle registration and plates, which are the complement to a driver's license: they allow a licensed driver to operate the vehicle on public roads. Neither registration nor plates are required to have them on private property, and many (most? all?) states have exemptions allowing "farm use" vehicles without normal license plates to temporarily use public roads.
Does anyone know if there were any licensing requirements in place for riders on horseback or horse drawn vehicles?
I completely agree. The Second Amendment should allow people to own a Glock 17... as long as they keep it safely unloaded and locked on their own property. No public carry without a license that requires significant training and may be limited in supply.
"...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Overlooked "bear"?
The original meaning of "bear arms" connotes a military context. It doesn't mean taking it with you wherever you go.
So you can bring it to your training exercises but that's it.
As I said up-thread; Not what the SC says.
You have the right to free speech. As long as you are talking in your own closet, alone.
See how dumb that sounds?
No, it doesn't. Bear means exactly what it says.
Nope. Bearing arms means to carry the arms out of the home. What you believe it meant is irrelevant. What 6 Justices say it meant is controlling. And they said that it meant carrying arms outside the home.
Sergeant First Class Card had plenty of training. And what's the point of an unloaded inaccessible firearm?
It's necessary to the security of a free State.
What's necessary to the security of a free state is making sure you and the Rev. Kirkland don't peg each other without protection.
How is it necessary to the security of the Free State?
Not even close. The security of a free state is dependent on the right to keep (in the house) and bear (outside the house) arms, in order to, among other things, prevent tyranny. Start with reading the Declaration of Independence, and follow up with reading contemporaneous writings, starting with the Federalist Papers.
Of course you're bearing them outside of the home. You keep them at home, and you bear them elsewhere. Still, keeping them is part of what's necessary to the security of a free State.
But bearing arms outside the home for purposes of preventing tyranny doesn't require a shall-issue public carry license.
How would licenses be limited in supply?
Are the licenses made of gold or something?
You're obviously not a New York taxi driver.
How would licenses be limited in supply?
Explain.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_medallion
So basically, the supply is limited becasue the state refuses to issue new licenses despite having the resources to do so.
Is that correct?
Right.
Luckily, you said “should” because that isn’t a requirement that will likely survive judicial scrutiny, after Heller, McDonald, and Bruen, because it substantially impairs the fundamental right of self defense.
The fundamental right of self-defense isn't a fundamental right to armed self-defense. That was Scalia's central sleight-of-hand in Heller. It won't survive Egregiously Wrong review when the time comes.
"...pass a road exam..."
That is easy to explain and understand, but a closer analogy would be a law that limited eight cylinder vehicles to law enforcement officers only. The need for effective self-defense tools is just as great for non-LEO civilians as it is for LEO civilians.
AAA, that's nonsense. Law enforcement officers in big cities spend all day every day getting directed from one fracas to another, many of them more dangerous than anything a typical civilian will encounter in a lifetime of concealed carry.
Also, law enforcement requires forceful initiative to begin confrontations with law-breakers, and then cope with whatever consequences ensue. Self-defense almost never requires any such initiative. Indeed, in cases where a civilian initiates armed conflict, it becomes reasonably questionable whether self-defense was any part of it.
Three years ago, I was told that law enforcement habitually guns down unarmed Black men.
Were they wrong?
AAA, that’s nonsense. Law enforcement officers in big cities spend all day every day getting directed from one fracas to another, many of them more dangerous than anything a typical civilian will encounter in a lifetime of concealed carry.
The FBI reports that there were about 1.23 million violent crimes committed in the U.S. in 2022...and that represents just the ones that were reported to them. Statistically, virtually ALL of them were committed against non-law enforcement civilians. It also omits the intended violent crimes that were prevented by non-LEO civilians who were able to do so by force (or threatened) force of arms.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! Let me own and carry a gun in California under the same standards and requirements as driving, owning, and buying a car. If that were to happen untold numbers of hoplophobes' heads would explode.
Mosley, wrong standard of comparison. Driving a car is not really a public-facing activity. Use instead the requirements imposed on school bus drivers.
But even compared with car driving, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree to display a license identifying you publicly whenever you went armed.
What alternate universe did you come from, where driving a car on public streets is not considered a "public-facing activity"?
Driving a car is not really a public-facing activity.
You've made some truly mind-numbingly stupid claims in your time here, but I think you may have outdone even yourself this time.
The other thing to take into account here is that driving on the roads is a privilege, granted by the state, while keeping and bearing arms is a fundamental right, protected by the 2nd Amdt (made applicable to the states through (full) incorporation by the 14th Amdt - See McDonald).
No one can. Besides, as this court pointed out, magazines with greater than the CA mandated maximum capacity are one of the most commonly owned items in this country - almost assuredly exceeding a billion of them in private hands in this country. And, of course, of that number of them used in violent crimes is a minuscule percentage of that number. Which means that banning them violates both prongs of the Supreme Court standard, that to ban arms, they must be both uncommon and unusually dangerous.
Here is what you need to take into account for that number. Semiautomatic handguns are invariably sold with spare magazines. Most often, with three, but sometimes with two. Standard for full sized and compact semiautomatic handguns is typically somewhere between 15 and 17 rounds. The big exception there are 1911 style handguns. If you are going to train with the gun, you are going to need more. I have at least 5 per caliber per manufacturer spare magazines (I can and do share training mags between my G17, G19, and now G19X and G43X).
Then there are AR and AK magazines. Standard for both is 30 rounds, though still a lot of 20 rounders sold. You probably only got one when you bought the gun, but the cost of, esp, 5.56/.223 AR-15 (and similar) magazines is dirt cheap - good ones (military grade - meaning that they are allowed in combat by the US military) are maybe $13 or so. You can often find cheaper ones, on sale, for $10, esp in bulk. A 5 pack May cost $50, on sale, which is less than most of the accessories you can put on them. Maybe more now, due to Bidenflation… I know people with more than a hundred 30 round 5.56/.223 AR-15 magazines. And almost no one with an AR-15 with fewer than 5 magazines.
Do I know how many magazines I have that hold more than 10 rounds? Not really. I have them all over the place - 10 AR mags here, 15 there, etc. I also know that three loaded 17 round G17 factory mags are currently missing. It’s a problem because they are loaded with very expensive SD rounds, where the cost of the ammo exceeds the cost of the mags.
Wonder if RFK jr. has a CCP?
Interesting question. Lord knows - he needs one. On the one hand, he is (I believe) a NY resident. On the other hand he is still politically connected - his father was a NY US Senator when he was gunned down. On the other hand, he is persona non grata by much of the NY Dem party leadership.
The District Court judge has stayed the injunction until the Second Circuit can grant a motion to stay it pending appeal. I don't think Mr. Srour will get his license this year or next.
New York allows consideration of arrests in cases that were later sealed. Before Bruen the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts upheld use of a normally sealed juvenile record to deny an adult's application.
"I don’t think Mr. Srour will get his license this year or next."
Does that fit the definition of irreparable harm?
We won't be sure he suffered harm until the Supreme Court overrules the Second Circuit.
He could move to Florida - - - - - - - -
Wouldn't that be irreparable harm according to the Rev. and others who comment here?
The judge has a problem and so do many others - "Judge Cronan declared the "good moral character" criterion facially unconstitutional. He also found that Mr. Srour suffered irreparable injury by being denied his Second Amendment rights"
2A defines an inherent right, it does not give a right. Far too many phrase the argument as the "Bill of Rights" gives one rights, when all it does is reinforce proper notice of rights already held.
That always sounds good to the people who say it. It's practical nonsense, but they like it.
If you lack power to vindicate a right, but insist you have it anyway, you are barking at the moon.
So you agree then that homosexuals did not have a right in 1868 when the 14th Amendment was written to ejaculate into the anuses of other men?
That is disgusting!
Yes, it is disgusting. Remember, it's the left that fought to make it a constitutional right.
The only people who like to talk about graphic gay sex as much as you do are closet cases.
That’s why we have the 2nd Amdt - not to grant the right, because it’s a fundamental, inalienable, right, but to protect it from government interference.
Not give notice of rights already granted, but prevents usurpation of those rights by the government. This was the crux of the debate between the Federalists and Antifederalists that led up to the adoption of the Bill of Rights. Both sides agreed that these were fundamental rights. The Federalists believed that the government would never dare infringe them. The antifederalists weren’t as trusting. They won the debate. The Bill of Rights was enacted to make sure that the government didn’t infringe these fundamental rights.
Imagine a "good moral character" requirement for voting.
Does anyone imagine that would be enforced in an even-handed manner?
Once again (it comes up so often), voting is not a right. It is more than a right. It is a sovereign power. That means that voting actually ought to enjoy total immunity from government interference—for the reason that all power to impose constraint in that relationship belongs to the voter, and none of it belongs to the government. Rights don't work that way.
A comment on another blog, relevant to this article.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/10/29/really-new-york-times-stephen-kings-facile-ignorant-appeal-to-emotion-and-anti-second-amendment-bias-is-worthy-of-space-on-your-op-ed-page/comment-page-1/#comment-858740
I agree the government is out of control, but Vickers is not a good example of that if you read what he actually did. Unfortunately for him, he's being sentenced by an ugly lesbian female Jewish judge appointed by Pedo Joe.
What did Vickers actually do?
What did Vickers actually do?
What he actually did, I don’t know. What he plead guilty to were charges that he (as part of a group)…
“…the defendants conspired to acquire machineguns and/or other restricted firearms, such as short-barreled rifles, by falsely representing that the firearms would be used for demonstrations to law enforcement agencies, including the Coats (North Carolina) Police Department and the Ray (North Dakota) Police Department”
…and then kept some of the acquired weapons for his personal collection. However, the assertion that Vickers has been sentenced to 25 years in prison is false. He could face up to 25 years, but his sentencing has not even been scheduled yet, let alone any sentence handed down.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/us-v-vickers-larry-vickers-pleads-guilty-to-conspiracy-to-illegally-acquire-machine-guns/
When you take 'licensing' issues to the highest level the law becomes blind to the difference between a flat-out psycho and a person you just don't like. Bring these laws down to the local folks who KNOW the Maine shooter and can do something about it. You say, well they didn't do something. That is another problem but as with all Biden moves (cf his insane move to go into MO and hamstring their 2nd Amendment bill) he gets to say 'we need stricter laws" and the locals can say nothing...and murder continues.
Maybe he shouldn't own a car, but how does this extend to firearms? Does he have any record at all of misusing them?
How about one suspension? How many should be the threshold in your world?
Are there laws that punish with suspension that are just easier to break in NY?
I can't imagine the different things you'd have to do to get suspended as a class C driver 30 times!
Then again, your first OWI (DWI) here is just a ticket...
That criteria would disarm like 50% of the Afro-Amurican population, you know, I think you're right (except for that whole "Shall not be Infringed" thang)
As long as they are prohibited from having gay sex, an abortion or voting, I'm okay with that
Queen opining about who shouldn't be allowed to own a firearm is about as interesting and revealing as Ilya the Lesser talking about who he thinks should be let into the country. The answer never changes.
So how many in your opinion?
Does it matter what the suspensions were *for*?
"dolt"? New favorite word?
Don't think the courts look too kindly on prior restraint when it comes to speech. While there may be a legal definition of what constitutes defamation it would be up to a court decide.
Has anyone stopped you from defaming Drackman's mother?
Consistent with laws in effect in 1791.
Except that they're not restricted.
Literally not. You can say what you want - defamation is a separate matter.
This ruling is, I think, consistent with the state making specific criminal acts a bar to getting the license. The problem is that “good character” is inexcusably vague, allowing for arbitrary denials of the right, making the law facially unconstitutional.
Once a law has been found to be facially unconstitutional, the judge isn’t at liberty to invent a law that wouldn’t be unconstitutional, and apply that in its place. The legislature has to do that work.
My own position, of course, is that gun ownership being a constitutional right, any sort of licensing system in impermissible. The state can prosecute you for a crime, and deprive you of the right as a penalty if you're convicted, but licenses are state permission to do something, and rights are exactly things you don't NEED a state's permission to do.
Are suspensions always related to impulse control? Might they be failure to pay tickets?
You don't need a license to own a firearm or to carry one in Maine.
Only a half dozen states require a license to own a gun, and a majority of states do not require a license to carry open or concealed.
Really assuming that NYC traffic laws are fair and reasonable here.
They're not.
Yep. As applied here, not too bad. But facially, should clearly be void.
Pick a number; any number.
How many times though?
Has freedom of speech been restricted to those of good moral character?
"we have several areas where such laws are long established exceptions."
which long-established exceptions are in force before the fact?
If they suspended his license 30 times, that means he got it restored at least 29 times. You know what that tells me. They kept suspending his license over trivial shit that has no reflection on his "impulse control".
No, no, specific numbers won’t matter to those who can’t get the spread of 30 to 1.
However, if you're not willing to pick a number, you're eschewing the opportunity to restrict gun possession based on marital infidelity, or license suspension, or donut consumption per hour, or whatever other metric you might choose to stand in for "impulse control."
So you cannot make a rule and defend it.
You're making Bumble's argument for him. The standard is completely arbitrary.
Imagine denying someone's right to speak under the first amendment based on the same standard. The second amendment is no different.
Maybe, not necessarily. We've seen before in these cases that the government frequently doesn't feel any need to treat serious offenses seriously. Look at the Rahimi case, for instance: His conduct was unquestionably serious, but the local government had left him on the street to carry out his depravations. They only got serious about the opportunity to deprive somebody of their 2nd amendment rights.
It could be the same here, this could be one seriously bad dude, and the local government was just blowing it off because nobody important was being victimized.
I mean, 30 times over 28 moving violations seems to mean it was suspended at least twice for stuff that wasn't moving violations, but it also means at least 28 moving violations.
Whether this reflects on character depends, perhaps, on whether these violations were extremely technical like 16 in a 15 zone and stopping slightly over the white line, or more egregious like 80 in a 45 and not stopping at all.
Exactly. They just can't seem to get the words "shall not be infringed" through their thick heads.
I've posted this before here. Several years ago (2013) a woman's ex-husband was stalking her. She got a PFA and it was useless. She bought a pistol, went through training and got her CCP. She worked as a nurse at an Assisted Living home. She was giving a co-worker a ride one day when her glovebox popped open and the co-worker saw her pistol. The co-worker reported to HR that she had a weapon in her car on Company property. The woman was threatened with the loss of her job if she ever brought the pistol on Company property again. She was the subject of gossip for a while and it got back to her Ex. On her way home from work, he ran her car off the road and shot her. When he was caught, he stated that he did it at that time because he knew she would be unarmed.
Everyone high on the Mayor's contributor list will be found to have "good moral character."
33% of black men have felony convictions and are thus prohibited from possession.
That's not how it works.
The pick a number game is a common trick in law school, and QA has the right answer - there is no concrete threshold because the inquiry should be totality of the circumstances.
The totality of the circumstances require you to shut up in all circumstances. The First Amendment must be just as negotiable as the Second -- after all, no law will protect someone who falsely cries "fire" Ina crowded theater.
That might be the right answer in law school but only because the premise of law school is to understand and defend an ambiguous standard that grants maximum discretion to the lawyers involved.
As a normative matter, if you can't (or won't) say where the line between acceptable and unacceptable is, then you don't yet really understand the rule you're trying to enforce.
Rossami - no, the answer is correct in the real world - it's not academic.
The issue is the question gives you only a specific fact, not the totality of the circumstances. That is why it sounds good to laypeople but you learn early on in law school it's a sucker's game.
Bright lines are great, but the world is complicated so they are rare.
Michael - you're going to have to try again because your post makes no sense.
there is no concrete threshold because the inquiry should be totality of the circumstances
We have, of course, discussed this before.
Thou shalt have no God before Absolute Judicial Discretion.
"totality of the circumstances" is what might be described as "Breyer deference", ie the judge reflects, with no external constraint whatever on what weighting to apply to each circumstance, or what circumstance to notice and what circumstance to ignore, and selects the answer that appeals to him. There is no way to retrace his reasoning, for whatever he chooses to write down is simply ex post facto justification for his subjective feelz. The weightings and the noticings and the ignorings will change from judge to judge and from case to case, for there is no rule to say how to add an apple to an orange. This is not law.
I am pleased - and a little surprised - to see that the judge in this case seems to think Breyer deference should remain confined to the law schools, and stay out of the actual courts.
"there is no concrete threshold because the inquiry should be totality of the circumstances."
I agree that he's wrong about the main point, that 30 is necessarily over the threshold.
TIP, don't be a pedant - there is an outside chance that the totality of the circumstances would mitigate 30, but it is pretty hard to imagine.
As I said below: "you can say something is out of bounds and then not specify the bounds"
Lee Moore - your dream of infallible computers that rule over us all is not one many share.
> the inquiry should be totality of the circumstances.
For crimes, often. For licenses and regulations though?
Legibility of the rules to those they're enforced upon is a valuable property that I think many lawyers undervalue.
"> the inquiry should be totality of the circumstances.
For crimes, often. For licenses and regulations though?"
I'm open to correction, but I think a lot of licensing schemes for positions of trust look to whether the licensee has demonstrated reckless behavior in other spheres. A DUI in your private automobile can cost you a CDL or pilot's license. I *think* (corrections welcome!) that banks don't, for example, want employees who are bouncing personal checks; they don't want people handling money who might be tempted. Lawyers can be disbarred for commingling client funds, etc, etc.
You can argue that drunk driving in your car doesn't mean you will get in the cockpit drunk, or that having your personal finances in a mess doesn't mean to will embezzle. The counterargument is that people reckless in one area are likely to be reckless in other areas.
People argue that being an enumerated right trumps any notion of restricting firearms rights for the unincarcerated. I'm don't find that completely persuasive. For a specific example, if someone is being sentenced for their 4th DWI and the judge says 'I could give you 3 years in prison, but I'm willing to not do that if you agree to parole conditions of no driving/no drinking/substance abuse counseling/no guns', I'm not going to get out my picket signs and protest.
No, the counterargument is that people who are reckless in one area are more likely to be reckless in a related area. Hence personal driving convictions affecting your CDL and bouncing personal checks affecting your career as a bank teller but not vice versa.
To your 4th DWI hypothetical, what would you think of the judge who says ‘I could give you 3 years in prison, but I’m willing to not do that if you agree to parole conditions of no driving/no drinking/substance abuse counseling/no internet.’ In both cases, the first three conditions are directly relevant to the behavior the judge is trying to correct. In both cases, the fourth condition is arbitrary and unrelated to any legitimate judicial purpose. That petty abuse of power should make you at least a little outraged. It's only a matter of degree from that to 'I could give you 3 years in prison or you could give me a blowjob in chambers'. Would you pick up your picket sign for that?
"No, the counterargument is that people who are reckless in one area are more likely to be reckless in a related area. Hence personal driving convictions affecting your CDL and bouncing personal checks affecting your career as a bank teller but not vice versa."
I hear that, but I think there is also some truth to the view that people who are reckless in one part of their lives are also likely to be reckless in other parts of their life.
" It’s only a matter of degree from that to ‘I could give you 3 years in prison or you could give me a blowjob in chambers’."
Well, matters of degree ... matter :-). Reckless with a car seems more closely related to reckless with a gun than no internet is to blowjobs. YMMV, of course!
I believe New York law sets a threshold at three suspensions. As in most of the United States, license suspensions in New York are mostly not for dangerous driving. For example, if you drive under suspension you get another suspension. If you own a car without insurance, stored in your garage for the winter, you get a suspension. New York's solution was to distinguish degrees of driving under suspension. Driving with one suspension is much less serious than driving with three. I think three is the threshold. It's a small number more than two but less than a lot.
While the law may say people with 30 suspensions should be fed into a wood chipper, or some Eight Amendment-compatible substitute of similar severity, many judges recognize that the drivers before them didn't do anything really serious. For example, I knew a guy who technically was driving with a license suspended for DUI. His real offense was not paying the reinstatement fee (a suspension lasts forever otherwise) and the judge dropped the charges when he paid the fees to get his license back. You really don't want to be poor in traffic court.
In some states an out of state suspension will put two suspensions on your record, one for the out of state suspension and one for the out of state violation that gets put on your local record.
The threshold I gave is for ordinary motor vehicle law. Page 16 of the District Court decision says the threshold for gun law is two. City law at the outset of this case said a gun permit could be denied if
Driving with one suspension is much less serious than driving with three. I think three is the threshold. It’s a small number more than two but less than a lot.
And the Lord spake, saying, ''First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."
Maybe he is just unlucky. Ever drive in NYC? Everyone there drives like a crazed maniacal idiot. Hell, you have to just to get anywhere.
It's the right which "shall not be infringed". What the right is depends on the Supreme Court's interpretation. At that point, you can play the "what part of 'shall not be infringed' don't you understand" card, not before...
Accordingly, the state can infringe the 2nd Amendment rights of convicted felons. You support that kind of "infringement", presumably?
This is a true story that definitely happened.
Looks that way.
I disagree - you can say something is out of bounds and then not specify the bounds. That happens all the time - 'I don't know what's right, but I know this is wrong' is a super common reaction to things.
You exclude the middle. There is lots of room between no bright line and completely arbitrary.
I think 28 moving violations is more serious, if one's license could be suspended for not having insurance. What the specific violations were might seem important, but the inability to modify one's behavior after more than 20 to avoid further violations might suffice.
Yes. A lot of suspensions, and tickets, are for driving without insurance, driving with a suspended license, etc. Sounds careless or negligent, etc? Then you are probably upper middle class. Maybe an attorney. We don’t do that sort of thing. A significant portion of the less well to don't live like that. They need to get to and from work, so drive anyway. They often can’t afford the insurance. And esp if they get even one DUI. 2 beers, BAC of .085, and car insurance is now unaffordable. See a lot of that in PHX.
Indeed. But it is not an argument.