The Volokh Conspiracy
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Advocacy in Support of Hamas vs. Illegal Material Support of Hamas
Whether Florida may order universities to derecognize Students for Justice in Palestine chapters would likely turn on whether there's evidence on sufficient coordination between them and the national SJP, and the national SJP and Hamas.
[UPDATE 11/1/2023, 4:12 pm: Here's an open letter on this subject sent today by the ACLU.]
FIRE wrote this letter Wednesday to various Florida public universities:
FIRE is deeply concerned by reports [link] that Florida's public universities … have been ordered by State University System of Florida Chancellor Ray Rodrigues, at the behest of Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, to derecognize campus chapters of Students for Justice in Palestine due to their affiliation with National Students for Justice in Palestine, which distributed a guide to protests to its student chapters. {The guide [link] called for "a national day of resistance from the student movement for Palestine liberation on college campuses" on October 12 and provided an RSVP link for a meeting on "'how to organize a protest,' including roles, security, media training, and more," as well providing additional ways to engage in the movement should protest not be possible, including teach-ins and writing local statement of solidarity. It also includes information about the organization's messaging and framing, hashtags for social media use, and graphic templates..}
By insupportably alleging that communications about campus protests from the national organization to its campus chapters constitutes material support for Hamas' terrorist activity overseas, this order unlawfully threatens students' clear expressive and associational rights under the First Amendment. To avoid violating clearly established law, [Florida universities] must not comply with the order.
In a letter to all State University System of Florida presidents on Monday [link], Rodrigues said that "based on National SJP's support of terrorism, in consultation with Governor DeSantis, the student [SJP] chapters must be deactivated. These … student chapters may form another organization that complies with Florida state statutes and university policies."
As you must know, the First Amendment bars public universities from denying student groups recognition or funding due to the "ideology or the opinion or perspective of the speaker[.]" Likewise, the First Amendment provides "a corresponding right to associate with others in pursuit of a wide variety of political, social, economic, educational, religious, and cultural ends"—a fundamental right "crucial in preventing the majority from imposing its views on groups that would rather express other, perhaps unpopular, ideas."
Denial of group recognition based on viewpoint, speech, or fear of disruption violates the First Amendment—particularly with regard to campus chapter groups' ties to a national organization. This is well-settled law. More than fifty years ago, in Healy v. James, the Supreme Court held that the president of a public college violated the First Amendment when he refused to grant recognition to a chapter of Students for a Democratic Society (SDS). Following a "climate of unrest" on college campuses, replete with "widespread civil disobedience … accompanied by the seizure of buildings, vandalism, and arson," causing some "colleges [to] shut down altogether," students sought to form a new chapter of SDS at the college. The college president refused to grant the group recognition, citing its philosophy and ties to the national SDS organization, which had "published aims … which include disruption and violence." The Court held that "denial of official recognition, without justification, to college organizations burdens or abridges" their First Amendment rights.
While the State of Florida may object to the views of Students for Justice in Palestine's national organization, its communications with campus chapters cannot serve as a basis to override those chapters' First Amendment rights. Derecognizing those groups would thus represent unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination, which is "censorship in its purest form."
The assertions in Chancellor Rodrigues' letter do not provide a sufficient basis to depart from these clearly established First Amendment rights. Governments may prohibit non-expressive conduct intended to provide "material support" to terrorist organizations, and the Florida statute cited by Chancellor Rodrigues is limited to providing "property" or "service[s] … to a designated foreign terrorist organization[.]" That remains true even if the net effect of the advocacy is that it sways public opinion. Similarly, the guide's rhetoric that students are "PART of this movement" is rhetorical hyperbole, not an announcement that the guide is issued at the direction, coordination, or control of a terrorist organization. Advocacy by a national organization does not subject individual students or their organizations to erosion of their First Amendment rights, let alone criminal liability….
Here's my tentative thinking:
Florida law, like federal law, makes it a crime to provide "material support or resources," including a "service," to a "designated foreign terrorist organization" (which includes Hamas). In Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project (2010), the Court upheld that statute against First Amendment challenge, and held that the forbidden "service[s]" include "advocacy performed in coordination with, or at the direction of, a foreign terrorist organization" (emphasis added).
At the same time, Florida law makes clear that this excludes advocacy that's entirely independent of Hamas:
An individual who acts entirely independently of the designated foreign terrorist organization or the person engaged in, or intending to engage in, an act of terrorism to advance the organization's or person's goals or objectives is not working under the direction and control of the designated foreign terrorist organization or person engaged in, or intending to engage in, an act of terrorism.
Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project repeatedly stresses that the federal law likewise excludes independent advocacy, and suggests that this exclusion is mandated by the First Amendment (e.g., "we in no way suggest that a regulation of independent speech would pass constitutional muster, even if the Government were to show that such speech benefits foreign terrorist organizations"; "Finally, and most importantly, Congress has avoided any restriction on independent advocacy, or indeed any activities not directed to, coordinated with, or controlled by foreign terrorist groups"). And indeed a student group at a public university can't be stripped of recognition based on its viewpoint (as the Court has recognized since Healy v. James (1972)) that is expressed independently of a foreign terrorist group. That is so even if its viewpoint supports terrorism generally, or Hamas in particular.
In this respect, the Court and legislatures have drawn a line similar to that upheld in Buckley v. Valeo (1976) as to campaign expenditures: There's a broad First Amendment right to speak independently of a group or candidate, but speech coordinated with a group or candidate is less protected (entirely criminally punishable as to speech coordinated with foreign terrorist organizations, and punishable if it involves more than a certain amount as to speech coordinated with candidates).
The question then is whether the Florida university SJP chapters are acting "in coordination with, or at the direction of" Hamas, perhaps indirectly through coordinating with national SJP which is turn coordinating with Hamas. This is a factual question. The Florida State chancellor's letter argues:
In response, and leading up to a "Day of Resistance," the National Students for Justice in Palestine (National SJP) released a "toolkit" which refers to Operation Al-Aqsa Flood as "the resistance" and unequivocally states: "Palestinian students in exile are PART of this movement, not in solidarity with this movement."
It is a felony under Florida law to "knowingly provide material support … to a designated foreign terrorist organization…" § 775.33(3), Fla. Stat. (2019). Here, National SJP has affirmatively identified it is part of the Operation Al-Aqsa Flood—a terrorist led attack.
And the national SJP letter does indeed, say, in part:
That could certainly be interpreted as saying that national SJP is indeed itself involved with the "large-scale battle" and with the "All Palestinian factions in Gaza [that] appear to be participating under unified command"—not just acting independently ("in solidarity with this movement") but acting with coordination (as "PART of this movement"). At the same time, it's also possible that "movement" refers to something broader (not Hamas's actions as such but the broader movement of support for Palestinians) or that, as FIRE says, "the guide's rhetoric that students are 'PART of this movement' is rhetorical hyperbole, not an announcement that the guide is issued at the direction, coordination, or control of a terrorist organization."
So that's the question as to national SJP's coordination, or not, with Hamas. What about the Florida university SJP chapters? Healy v. James made clear that the rights of the chapters also turn on a factual inquiry into whether they are working closely enough with the national organization (which, in that case, had been seen by the university as being involved with violence). The Court held largely for the student chapter because (emphasis added),
Students for a Democratic Society, as conceded by the College and the lower courts, is loosely organized, having various factions and promoting a number of diverse social and political views, only some of which call for unlawful action. Not only did petitioners proclaim their complete independence from this organization, but they also indicated that they shared only some of the beliefs its leaders have expressed. On this record it is clear that the relationship was not an adequate ground for the denial of recognition.
So if national SJP is indeed coordinating with Hamas (and thus providing support that's illegal and unprotected by the First Amendment), then the factual question would be whether the local chapters are "complete[ly] indepeden[t]" of the national organization, or whether they are likewise sufficiently coordinating with the national SJP.
It may well be that the student SJP chapters are indeed sufficiently independent of Hamas that their speech remains protected by the First Amendment. On the other hand, it's possible the Florida authorities have some factual information that suggests that there is sufficient coordination (perhaps via the national SJP) so that the Florida material support to terrorism law does apply (and so might the federal law). I'm glad that FIRE is prodding Florida universities to respond, and perhaps we'll learn more that shows that the universities are just assuming such coordination rather than having real evidence. But the First Amendment question will ultimately turn, I think, on this factual question.
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Islam is not protected by the 1st Amendment. Period. The 1st Amendment just needs to be interpreted to allow for reasonable and common sense restrictions, like a prohibition on practicing religions that are dangerous.
Sure, the "well-regulated spirituality, being necessary to the morality of a free state" clause of the First Amendment freedom of religion totally supports such restrictions.
All religions are dangerous, given that they are delusional belief systems that claim the right to impose normative beliefs upon society as a whole in the name of their respective imaginary friends.
All memeplexes, which includes both religions and politics, are dangerous, given that they are delusional belief systems that claim the right to impose normative beliefs upon society as a whole in the name of their respective imaginary friends (existence is imaginary) or lies by imaginary friends (politicians whose friendship is imaginary.)
Can we add the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS Church), to your list since they're all into pedo stuff?
Some people are a little miffed at the Westboro Baptist Church too, so maybe add them too.
Mormons, yes, but Westboro no. Following the Nicene's creed should be the criterion.
So you want to grant or deny religious freedom based upon conformity to a statement of agreement composed by mentally ill men about their imaginary friend? That in and of itself is a dangerous position, given that your religion thereafter allows you to harass and persecute those who do not subscribe to your mental illness.
Go visit the morgues in Israel and then you can come talk to me about your Muslim-nuttery.
The morgues where the bodies of Jews the Jews murdered in order to put the blame on Ham-Ass?? I wish I'd learned Hebrew instead of German growing up because that's the only thing keeping me from moving there (I know, El Al has non stop flights, so does Egypt Air, fuck you, I'll leave when all the Al-Kaida Fucks leave)
Frank
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Looks like you're wrong.
Constitutional rights are not absolute. Everything needs reasonable restrictions and "common sense regulation" for safety purposes. Why do you want people to die?
So people do get banned from VC...
The Rev. should be happy.
” I’m glad that FIRE is prodding Florida universities to respond, and perhaps we’ll learn more that shows that the universities are just assuming such coordination rather than having real evidence. ”
That’s awfully generous of you! Thinking that they might have real evidence. The universities were ordered to do this by the State (the State University System Chancellor). He did so based on a “toolkit.” What was the “toolkit”? Well, that was the very letter you reference.
Again, I have to put in the necessary disclaimer to avoid a complete derail. Hamas is evil. What they did was beyond evil. I will be happy to see them wiped off the face of the earth, never to return. But even when emotions are high, people are allowed to express opinions.
Even if the opinions are dumb. The FA is not there to protect the speech we like and agree with when times are calm. It’s there to provide some shelter to unpopular opinions when times are contentious … like now.
ETA- And I will add that I appreciate that FIRE is taking a stance that is unpopular in defense of core values. Good for them.
I agree = But even when emotions are high, people are allowed to express opinions. Even if the opinions are dumb. The FA is not there to protect the speech we like and agree with when times are calm. It’s there to provide some shelter to unpopular opinions when times are contentious … like now.
ETA- And I will add that I appreciate that FIRE is taking a stance that is unpopular in defense of core values. Good for them.
“We don’t really mean we are PART of Hamas”
Are they lying now, or lying then?
The student groups are part of the Palestinian movement. Hamas is part of the Palestinian movement. The Palestinian movement as a whole is not a designated terrorist group.
Perhaps it should be.
Such a designation would be subject to judicial review under essentially the same standards used for review of agency regulations. There are a number of weak points. Among them, the intent of such an order would be to prohibit conduct that is clearly protected by the First Amendment. One may advocate driving the Jews into the sea just like one may advocate building a dome around Gaza and filling it up with Zyklon B. The standard for banning domestic speech is an imminent threat, not advocating illegal acts.
Note that many countries do ban my hypothetical advocacy. America is special.
But this is "in time of war" and while Wilson went *way* too far in WWI, does any of that still apply? Apply here with the "global war on terrorism" declared?
"Perhaps"??
those fucks were cheering the Munich Massacre 50+ years ago, like Patton said, we'll grease the treads of Israeli Tanks with the stinking guts of Ham-Ass Terrorists (or future Ham-Ass Terrorists, Family of Ham-Ass Terrorists, "Former" Ham-Ass Terrorists)
Frank
The student groups are part of the Palestinian movement. Hamas is part of the Palestinian movement. The Palestinian movement as a whole is not a designated terrorist group.
Correct. However, according to the "toolkit" they consider themselves to be "a part of" the "movement" that includes as it's goal seeing Palestine "liberated from the river to the sea", with the meaning of that phrase being unmistakable. Now...does that make them a part of Hamas or identifiable as a terrorist group themselves? No. But it certainly makes it clear that what they're advocating is not peaceful coexistence. And the terrorism recently employed toward that goal is described in that same document (using language other than "terrorism", of course) as legitimate "resistance" that is to be supported and encouraged.
That said, yeah...they have as much of a right to spew vile stupidity as anyone else does, and I oppose FL's action as much as I do similar actions against any other group.
They go quite a bit beyond wanting to ‘liberate’ Israel. If you read their ‘tool kit’, they regard all of North America as occupied territory, too. We’re all ‘settlers’ in their opinion.
We’re not outside the war, folks. They just haven’t yet gotten around to us.
Here's that "toolkit".
"On Thursday, October 12th, National Students for Justice in Palestine is calling for a national day of resistance from the student movement for Palestine liberation on college campuses across occupied Turtle Island (so-called US and Canada) and
beyond".
(Dr) Baruch Goldstein: Hero, Visionary
Pretty slick, Brett. Someone(s) helped fund this, author it, and put it together for distribution. I just wonder who those people are.
If you and the Palestinian supporters would also make the same case for a University recognized and subsidized KKK chapter, then you have a point, if not the objections would be the same.
Well considering that the concept of "Palestine" is a fictitious construct, I'll have to disagree.
True.
There has never been a "Palestine".
Well, let's have some discovery and find out if they are a Hamas front.
They're more likely to be an Iranian front.
I agree with the sentiment of gladness "that FIRE is prodding Florida universities to respond," with the hope that "perhaps we'll learn more that shows that the universities are just assuming such coordination rather than having real evidence" and with the opinion that the First Amendment question will ultimately turn on the factual question.
I hope, but reserve some skepticism, that the parallel issue of anti-establishment will receive similar treatment. Already, there are reports that "an empty Shabbat table was set up and placed with 224 seats, symbolizing the hostages being held captive by Hamas in Gaza," with careful and glaringly obvious omission of who is behind the act and who authorized the use of public property for such a religious display. Senators have stated that their religious preferences will be expressed in their votes... and the religious differences are beginning to overshadow the true legal (and moral) issues.
The official position of the United States, United Kingdom, and Israel differs from that of every other nation in the world: perhaps we are right, perhaps not... and surely we need broader civil discussion and democratic input on the matter. But we shouldn't compromise our own laws or our support of international law. Presently, we are at war with no-one: our laws help us from descending into civil war and international law helps us from becoming the world's hated, bullying, and miscreant policeman.
By the way, who remembers Folke Bernadotte, who, after proposing to reduce Israel’s size, was was assassinated by Avraham Stern's "Jewish Stern Gang," also known as Lehi [Loḥamei Ḥerut Yisraʾel]? The US Justice Department does [at https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/terror-out-zion-irgun-zvai-leumi-lehi-and-palestine-underground ]. Yes, there were -- and are -- Israeli terrorist groups which seek to violently destroy their foes... and some are supported by University student groups.
The official position of the United States, United Kingdom, and Israel differs from that of every other nation in the world
The official position on...what?
Already, there are reports that “an empty Shabbat table was set up and placed with 224 seats, symbolizing the hostages being held captive by Hamas in Gaza,” with careful and glaringly obvious omission of who is behind the act and who authorized the use of public property for such a religious display.
Every report I've seen about it specifies that it was ~20 different Jewish organization that set the display up. And news stories about protests or other such displays on public property rarely, if ever, touch on who authorized them...so there's nothing glaring about any such omission in this case.
You should take up your complaint with the editors of the ABC site that published that particular report of the event. Other reports are clear enough that it was part of an event organized by the Israeli-American Council.
Certainly you're not suggesting that granting an event permit to a religious group raises Establishment Clause problems.
I hope, but reserve some skepticism, that the parallel issue of anti-establishment will receive similar treatment.
I do not think there is much danger groups supporting Israel will run afoul of material support for terrorist organization statutes.
Can you think of some recent events that point to why that is the case, or have you lost all perspective?
The Reuters link is truncated. Put a “25/” on the end of the URL.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/floridas-desantis-bans-pro-palestinian-student-group-2023-10-25/
Fixed, thanks!
While all correct as a matter of current precedent, I would go further and say that Holder was wrongly decided. Even advocacy "performed in coordination with, or at the direction of" is not "material support".
Hamas and the people supporting their actions are despicable but we don't need a First Amendment to protect speech that we approve of.
But the Constitution isn't a suicide pact, either.
That's stupid when opponents of the 2nd Amendment say it and just as stupid when opponents of the 1st Amendment say it.
(Note: If you were trying to be sarcastic, I will withdraw my vitriol but note that the attempt failed.)
Material support seems like money, stuff, helping move weapons, smuggle stuff or people.
Exclusively it would leave out words.
Which is ironic, because the same "side" is very loud that words are violence, in an attempt to work around the First Amendment.
Sigh, once again into the breach, defending people who don't deserve it.
Holder says otherwise.
Well....
Imagine if Hamas opened a US branch. But organized differently. They just to "advocacy"....cooperate with Hamas, take in money to do "outreach" in the US, teach people the evils of the Jewish state, maybe pass on a few "advocates" for additional training to Hamas in Gaza (but no contact with those advocates afterwards). Maybe a few lawsuits so Hamas can get more money.....
Would that all be OK?
None of that should be illegal. Not good or desirable but also not illegal. That's all speech.
Note that you said collect money but did not say transfer that money out of the US. Money would be a "material" justifying material support.
Note 2 - Not sure about "passing on" those "advocates" for training in Gaza. That might not be just speech but it might also depend on the exact facts of the case.
Types of speech can also be types of material support. I'm not arguing it isn't a type of speech. I am arguing it's material support for an organization.
"I’m not arguing it isn’t a type of speech" you just want it banned.
Yes, I believe material support for terrorist organizations which deliberately kill thousands of helpless civilians should be banned.
You don't?
Aren't you supporting the slaughter of thousands of helpless civilians?
No.
So, joining in calls for a ceasefire? Good for you.
No
Then you support the killing of thousands of civilians.
No. Your options are false choices.
You're not proposing a third.
There are many other options besides those two. If you can't see them, that's your issue.
You haven't identified any of them.
Have you stopped beating your wife?
I have an opinion, but first I want to hear yours:
How do you square First Amendment concerns with banning this speech, material support or not?
Past experience has demonstrated you are not reliable. I've presented my opinion. You can answer the question. Or not.
"Yes, I believe material support for terrorist organizations which deliberately kill thousands of helpless civilians should be banned.
You don’t?"
Your consequentialism is pretty thick headed and the worst way to answer a rights question there is. The concept of rights was created as a response to consequentialism/utilitarianism’s failings.
Material support can be banned – if as applied such a ban would pass strict scrutiny. There is an on-point precedent mentioned in the OP.
I can’t tell if you don’t know or don’t care. Either way you’re pretty simple and authoritarian.
This passed strict scrutiny.
You never said if you supported banning material support to terrorist organizations though. Why avoid the easy question?
You can't read.
1. This hasn't been to court but probably wouldn't pass strict scrutiny since there is no coordination. Hence my line about there being a precedent in the OP.
2. What do you think "material support can be banned" means?
I can read. I asked a specific question. Whether you support banning material support for Terrorists Organizations. Yes or no? Which you've still avoided actually answering.
Careful reading demonstrates you haven't "actually" answered the question.
"I asked a specific question. Whether you support banning material support for Terrorists Organizations"
Me: "Material support can be banned."
What in the world is wrong with you?
"What in the world is wrong with you"
I read.
I did not ask if material support "can" be banned. I asked if you supported banning material support to terrorist organizations. Those are not the same question.
So...do you support banning material support to terrorist organizations? Or will you dodge the question again?
Advocating for a Communist overthrow of our capitalist republic is legal in the US, even.
I had hoped that Eugene's commentary on the FIRE letter would argue for narrowing Holder, limiting it to particular facts, or arguing (as you do) that it was wrongly decided.
I'm disappointed, though not surprised, that Eugene chose the "well, there might be some actual there there" approach to the issue. It seems that he is absolutely in favor of banning speech on campuses, if a sufficiently-plausible link between student chapters of the SJP can be drawn to Hamas. And, apparently, what an organization might say about itself and its aims, rhetorically, could be sufficient to show that link, according to Eugene.
Speaking out in favour of Hamas? Disgusting but permissible.
Co-ordinating with Hamas what to say? Impermissible and probably illegal.
Really? To simplify, let's just say that someone repeats, word-for-word, a Hamas press release (so the meaning of "coordination" issue is moot).
How is that not speech, of the speaker, which is protected?
Like I've been saying: we should shut down all public colleges & universities. If private colleges want to "recognize" terrorist-supporting student-groups, more power to them. But at least the taxpayers won't be involved.
In actual important news, it looks like the IDF ground offensive may be starting.
He Who blessed our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob — may He bless the fighters of the Israel Defense Forces, who stand guard over our land and the cities of our God, from the border of the Lebanon to the desert of Egypt, and from the Great Sea unto the approach of the Aravah, on the land, in the air, and on the sea.
May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down before them. May the Holy One, Blessed is He, preserve and rescue our fighters from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness, and may He send blessing and success in their every endeavor.
May He lead our enemies under our soldiers’ sway and may He grant them salvation and crown them with victory. And may there be fulfilled for them the verse: For it is the Lord your God, Who goes with you to battle your enemies for you to save you.
A lot of those guys are going to die. Nothing will be solved. They'll die for nothing. Pure waste of life. But you got your rocks off.
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. "
1400+ souls cry out for justice, you fool.
Israel has been a country for 75 years now, and still surrounded by people who hate them and still Israelis are subjected to horrible terrorist attacks. At some point, we are going to have to conclude that the hard line tactics taken over the last 75 years aren't making the Israeli people any safer. Real justice for the 1400+ souls would be policies that make the Israeli people safe over the long term.
The Israelis tried peace. They completely evacuated Gaza. Destroyed their own settlements.
The people of Gaza don't want peace. They believe armed struggle is how they should get their way.
"The people of Gaza..." you've asked them? How do you know this to be true?
Hamas, the terrorist, authoritarian rulers of Gaza, believe this. Hamas, however, is not "The people of Gaza."
Eugene posted a poll of Gazans the other day from just a few months ago in which a majority stated a preference for the Palestinian Authority over Hamas.
I'll put that in the "Who gives a fuck" file
You dumbasses may give a fuck when America stops supporting Israel -- and does so because of Israel's right-wing assholerly.
Those who genuinely support Israel will be begging for reconsideration and a change of heart . . . in vain, I hope.
If Israel ditches its hard-right ways and immoral brutality, and changes direction quickly and substantially, I will support continued aid to Israel. Otherwise, I hope we ditch Israel -- and Saudi Arabia -- as soon as possible. Let them do as they wish, but without American political, economic, and military skirts to hide behind.
Your antisemitism is showing again. The American people strongly support Israel, and that support is growing post 10/7.
That was the poll where, if you dived into the details, Hamas' support was limited because a lot of Gazans preferred a more bloodthirsty organization, wasn't it?
You know who's support of Hamas was decisive? Netanyahu's.
That is correct, Brett. That is what happens when an entire society is marinated and stewed in the belief that Judeocide is perfectly acceptable. The labels might change - Hamas, PIJ, IJ, PA, PLO, Hezbollah, ISIS - but the ideology is consistent: Judeocide is perfectly acceptable for all of them.
The pro-Hamas demonstrations we see here in the US is not directed just toward Israel. It is directed toward Jews; all of us. That antisemitic, Judeocidal virus has taken hold here in America. That is what these pro-Hamas rallies at our elite institutions represent. It is happening here. It has started.
Nothing like a bit of scaremongering to justify the slaughter of innocents.
Hamas wants those "innocents" slaughtered. They become martyrs for Allah.
I'm curious why anyone would want to do what Hamas wants.
Indeed
Correct...Gazan society has been marinated and stewed in the belief that Judeocide is acceptable. Hamas enjoys broad support in Gazan society (and with palestinians in Judea, Samaria). Gazans were handing out candies on October 8th (and palestinians in Jenin, Nablus and a number of other places) to celebrate and glorify the deaths of Jews. Utterly revolting behavior.
Fortunately for Gazans, Israel will now rid them of Hamas (and Hamas' anti-gay, anti-trans agenda) and solve one their problems. If Gazan civilians choose to obey the instructions of the IDF, they will live. Otherwise, they will die. Choose wisely, is what I would say.
This is awful.
'If the civilians choose to obey the instructions of the invading military, they will live. Otherwise, they will die.' remains as fucked up when applied to Gaza as it does anywhere else, despite the evil of Hamas.
You are marinated and stewed in the belief that Palestinians no longer count as people.
XY has been calling for genocide for weeks.
And you find it aceptable that HAMAS survives intact to repeat its Judeocide
False.
Take it up with Hamas, Sarcastr0.
War is awful.
That's why you don't do it.
You do not get a free pass for not caring if the IDF kills Gazan civilians by blaming Hamas, Commenter.
You've given in to something pretty awful.
Take it up with hamas.
"I'm not responsible for my own hatred and genocidal fantasies because someone else hates me."
You share more in common with Hamas than you realize. Your attitude is no different than theirs. You're just as hateful as they are. You believe that casualties are entirely the fault of the other side. You believe that any attack against you justifies relentless and disproportionate destruction of your enemies without regard to civilian casualties.
You're a genocidal and hateful fuck perpetuating the very conflict you claim to seek an end to. If Hamas is indoctrinating people, they're using examples like you to do it.
I say the same to any country that wants to continue to benefit from American support. The liberal-libertarian mainstream will call the shots, and not in favor of very expensive right-wing foreign assholes forever. Maybe not even for long.
The wages of aligning with the losing side of America's culture war, the wrong side of history, and the immoral and belligerent right-wing voices in a country should be assessed with no mercy, no leniency, and no remorse.
See you down the road apiece, clingers.
Yeah, Gaza as it currently exists is the perfect breeding ground for violent extremism. Working so hard to keep it that way seems like a massive miscalculation.
‘Israel will now rid them of Hamas’
You are a child.
Ridding Gaza of Hamas is the primary war aim of Israel. This is an existential fight for Israel. Hamas will be physically obliterated within Gaza (and hopefully elsewhere if Israel can get to them). There is nothing to negotiate. Israel will rid Gaza of Hamas. The UN should thank Israel for taking out the world's trash: Hamas.
Gazans who value their lives will obey the instructions given to them by the IDF, for over a week now: Head south toward Rafah. Get south of Wadi Gaza. Those Gazans will live, and will receive humanitarian aid. Gazans who choose to be in physical proximity to Hamas members at this time are making a very bad lifestyle choice. Their deaths will be on the heads of Hamas.
Post war, what to do with a civil society fed a steady diet of Judeocide (actively and passively), is the biggest question to me.
I do think military action can get rid of Hamas.
The sort of horrorshow you advocate for will just replace it with something else in not too long.
Which at this point I think you'd be into as an excuse to kill more Palestinians. For noncompliance, of course.
Because these days you sound a lot like how Hamas did before this massacre.
Sarcastr0, how many more Jews have to die before you realize that there is no universe where Israel lives side by side in peace with Hamas?
Take it up with Hamas.
how many more Jews have to die
People, Commenter. Think about how many more *people* have to die, and we can talk.
Wow.
before you realize that there is no universe where Israel lives side by side in peace with Hamas?
I've made it quite clear I realize Hamas has to go. You just can't fucking read you're so blinded with bloodthirst.
You have embraced a tunnel vision ends-justifies-the-means towards that goal that isn't going to get rid of Hamas any more effectively, but will will leave Israel worse off.
And darken your and Israel's soul if they do what you advocate for.
'how many more Jews have to die'
Loads, apparently, starting with whatever the IDF casualities turn out to be, because there's nothing more important than perpetuating this horrible conflict.
It is getting easier to lack interest in how the superstition-based bloodletting in that region plays out . . . so long as America is no longer involved.
Maybe we should just cut them all loose and let the War Of The Fairy Tales unspool.
'Ridding Gaza of Hamas is the primary war aim of Israel.'
No, the primary war aim of Israel is to lash out as a nuclear power who just got stung through its own ineptitude by a group that they themselves thought it was a great idea to support for their own aims in an effort to show the people they failed to protect that they're still bigger and stronger than Gaza.
Are you insinuating that Mr. Netanyahu -- by focusing on (1) internal political power plays benefitting his country's worst elements and and (2) providing muscle for the right-wing assholes who occupy and cheer the settlements in the West Bank -- took his eye off genuinely important security issues to the southwest and was a complete fuck-up as an ostensible leader?
That is just a childish comment.
Would you say the same it it was your sister who was raped and killed on Simchat Torah?
What's childish about it? Israelis don't have any problem blaming Netanyahu for this mess.
A heap of dead Palestinian babies won't bring her back.
If so, it is at best the second most important existential fight for Israel.
The most important point: Whether Israel ditches its hard-right, theocratic government and vivid record of immoral, brutal conduct at others' expense.
If Israel gets that one wrong, it loses American support. Israel is entitled to act as it sees fit, and continue to embrace right-wing belligerence if it wishes, of course . . . it's their funeral.
Why would someone who supports America’s gay-bashing, trans-hating conservatives criticize Hamas for sharing that bigotry? Not enough other reason to object to Hamas? Staggering lack of self-awareness? Just plain stupidity?
Maybe the question is this Arthur. How do you support the Gazan palestinians, who are homophobic and transphobic (and act upon their phobia by tossing trannies and gays off rooftops and hang them from cranes for the birds of the air to eat)? Do you support the palestinian agenda vis a vis gays and trannies, Arthur? How can that be?
Do you get cognitive dissonance? Just a wee bit? 🙂
C_XY spots a principle, and is confused.
They never tried peace. They tried to negotiate for peace, but that got scuppered and they never tried again. You don't speak for the people of Gaza, or for Israel.
The so-called leaders of the Palestinians have made their bones by rejecting peace proposals
So what? If you actually give a shit about your people dying you keep at it. If your people dying gives you a perceived political advantage, you don’t bother.
So what? You know why. Hamas does not care how many Palestinians die; they are all martyrs for Allah. They don't care because their dying gives Hamas a perceived political advantage.
You can see that today in the message of the President of Norway.
So maybe don't do what Hamas wants you to do.
"you keep at it"
But that is exactly what the jihadis do not do. They are uninterested in a compromise. They want all Jews gone.
They do not value the lives of arab civilians.
Why do you think that no Arab country want to take in Palestinians?
How long do you want all that to carry on for? How many dead people are you willing to accept because the problem is hard and the solving of it is unsexy and full of compromise, setback and bad actors? Easier to bomb a few thousand people dead.
Pity none of them are going to get any justie and thousands more voices get added to the chorus.
That's your view. They perhaps think differently. Maybe they'll destroy a few rocket supply depots that would've ended up killing their daughters.
Maybe they'll escalate the conflict, prolong it with even more vicious bitterness and lots of daughters will end up dying. Apart form the daughters they're actually killing right now, that is.
They tried de-escalation. Removed every Israeli presence in Gaza. Didn't work
That wasn't de-escalation. That was retrenchment.
If your only version of de-escalation is the suicide of the Israeli people...no they didn't try that.
By any rational means, the Israelis tried to de-escalate by withdrawing entirely from Gaza.. Didn't get them anywhere
Withdrawing from a place where you're going to support the worst group in order to keep that place unstable isn't de-escalation, it's running away after lighting the fuse.
So tell us your solution.
What should be done with the millions of Jews who occupying Arab land from the river to the sea?
Fortunately as you babble, the IDF will be doing what needs to be done
'So tell us your solution.'
Not indiscriminately bombarding civilian areas.
'the IDF will be doing what needs to be done'
Killing lots of civilians?
G-d damn it, someone find that magic horn! That’s a Class A artifact, and should be able to destroy Cap’s shield and Thor’s hammer.
Some friends refuse to stand too near to me for fear of lightning bolts.
Your god is a paltry, silly, illusory thing. Complete fucking nonsense.
Superstitious warmongers -- who figure gods are on their side in endless rounds of unproductive killing -- are among the worst religious kooks.
And, it appears, a good chunk of the Republican Party.
Don't say that around any Moose-lums Jerry, in fact don't even say their God's Name (AllahAllahAllahAllah Infinity!!!!) or much less draw a picture of him, only Moose-lums are allowed to say his name as they're committing their latest terrorist murders, better watch out you don't lose your head, literally.
Frank
May they not commit war crimes in the process.
So, you can advocate for a terrorist organization, but not provide it with aid and comfort.
However, if you claim you're part of the terrorist organization, do you still need to provide aid and comfort to some other part in order to be legally liable? Or once you claim you're part of it, are you just liable as the terrorist organization itself?
if you claim you’re part of the terrorist organization, do you still need to provide aid and comfort to some other part in order to be legally liable?
This is very silly. Someone saying 'I'm a Nazi' doesn't make them liable for execution for war crimes.
No, but it's prima facie cause to believe they coordinate with and assist the Nazi party.
prima facie cause
No. Saying ‘I’m a Nazi’ is not by itself enough to establish coordination and assistance.
Because that would be authoritarian as fuck
It's sure as hell reason enough to shun them will checking carefully to see if they're engaged in coordination and assistance, though.
What they're doing is roughly the same as the German American Bund declaring that they're part of the same cause as the Nazis in the middle of WWII.
Just FWIW, before and during WWII the U.S. played hardball with the Bund.
It was A)outrageous from a civil rights perspective and B)couldn't have happened to more deserving people.
It's not a light analogy, I think this group pretty much IS exactly the same as the Bund in all relevant respects; I'm sure someone will scream "Godwin!", but the very existence of Hamas is a product of our failure to de-Nazify the Middle east after WWII.
No new goalposts Brett.
It's an "analogy", not a goalpost.
Old goalpost: "if you claim you’re part of the terrorist organization, do you still need to provide aid and comfort to some other part in order to be legally liable?"
New goalpost: "It’s sure as hell reason enough to shun them will checking carefully to see if they’re engaged in coordination and assistance, though."
It's not an analogy, it's a whole new thesis. You went from liable to shunning and didn't even notice.
You can't even tell the difference between a question and an analogy? Here's a clue: Neither are goal posts...
"No new goalposts Brett"
The everlasting answer.
Says you
Claiming to be a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences doesn’t make one a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
Similarly, claiming not to be a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences doesn’t by itself void one’s membership in the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
The same is true of Hamas.
Which they didn't even claim to be a part of, it's worth noting. They claimed to be part of a movement. A movement isn't a designated terrorist organization, at least this one isn't.
There's an interesting distinction here, though: While claiming to be part of the Academy doesn't mean you are, suppose there were some kind of legal consequences for being a member? Wouldn't claiming to be part of it lay you open to them, until you established you'd been lying about it?
And this assumes that they ARE lying about it. Which is not a particularly safe assumption.
Claiming to be a thief does not alone make you a thief either.
You're looking for scalps.
It depends on what "lay you open" means.
If it means someone might mistakenly sue you, sure.
If it means any actual legal significance, no.
I think it means that, once you claim to be a [thief], say, that you ARE a [thief] becomes the default assumption, because being a [thief] is a bad thing, so it amounts to an admission against interest which deserves to be taken seriously. So you get treated as a [thief].
At that point it's just an assumption, which could be rebutted, but your claiming it produces the need to rebut it, or else the assumption that you weren't lying when you claimed it stands.
Now, this 'admission against interest' reasoning applies to negative claims, not positive ones. But I like to think that "We're part of the genocidal anti-Semitic movement!" is a negative claim.
(Granted, they don't THINK it's a negative claim. But thinking it isn't negative actually counts as proof that the claim is true...)
What! That's insane anti-logic. This is the best example yet of you intentionally twisting your mind into pretzels in order to justify some right-wing talking point, grievance, or conspiracy theory.
Your "That could certainly be interpreted..." interpretation of the National SJP letter seems quite a stretch to me. Just a fig leaf to cover the suppression of speech the Florida government doesn't like. It is certainly a long way from proving coordination between the National SJP and Hamas, much less coordination with the local Florida chapters. I hope government suppression of speech per the Holder decision requires more proof of coordination than that. I would've hoped you would advocate requiring more proof than that.
I'd be careful not to dismiss the distinction between independent speech and speech uttered at the direction of/in coordination with another group. The federal government itself is fighting a charge that it directed social media companies to suppress speech. Though not directly comparable, that case is also founded on this distinction.
I think this is the first time I’ve seen you share a FIRE letter, Eugene, without basically co-endorsing it.
It’s a bit nauseating, personally. I am already familiar with your particular bugaboo about gay and trans people, and the way that bugaboo skews your theory of the First Amendment. But here you are making a sophistic argument to extend the reach of Holder – already a bad decision restricting our free speech rights – to speech that the speaker has not actually “coordinated” with a terrorist group but that is nonetheless intended to “coordinate” with the terrorist group’s actions.
Under the First Amendment, I should be able to say, “I support the actions and aims of Hamas” (even though, to be clear, I do not). I should be able to say that for exactly the same reasons I should be able to say, “I support the wholesale slaughter of LGBT people as well as members of the Democratic party,” as several of your regular commenters have done. I should be able to say that, and I shouldn’t have to be even the slightest bit worried that my saying or typing that sentence even for hypothetical purposes – as in the present instance – could in some way be mis-used by state actors to support selective criminal prosecution.
The fact that I cannot do that in confidence, under Holder and given the way that “First Amendment scholars” like yourself are pushing it now, is a real problem. One that I would have hoped that an esteemed, think-tank-ensconced First Amendment “expert” like yourself would be slightly more sensitive to.
As long as we are obliged to treat Holder as good law, people with a keener interest in free speech than yourself should interpret the use of the words “in coordination with” as linked in meaning to the use of the words “at the direction of” – as indeed we would do in the political contribution space. “Coordination” for these purposes should require more than mere contemporaneous statements of sympathy. It should require some kind of intentional contact with the terrorist group, with efforts coordinated between them. A simple press release, without that kind of intentional contact and coordination, should not be sufficient to show such “coordination,” even if by its terms it claims to be participating in a common cause.
I do not know what the lower courts have been saying about speech "coordination" under Holder. But I would hope that other First Amendment scholars are paying closer attention, and raising the alarm, if lower courts are finding groups in violation of federal law for rhetoric whose only fault is being slightly over-charged.
That's not actually clear.
When all else fails, ad hominem.
You're using big words you don't understand. That was not an ad hominem.
Your only response was to literally accuse him of supporting Hamas.
Do you have another definition of ad hominem I'm not aware of?
That being said: You’re using big words you don’t understand. I appreciate your humour in responding to an accusation of ad hominem by insulting the intelligence of the accuser.
You're doing it again. "Ad hominem" and "insult" are different things. If I said, "Simon's position on climate change should be rejected because he's a Hamas supporter" that would be an ad hominem. The phrase refers to the logical fallacy in which one rejects a person's arguments based on irrelevant characteristics of the speaker.
If I just say, "Simon is a terrible person," that's not an ad hominem argument.
You’re doing it again. “Ad hominem” and “insult” are different things.
True, but they're similar enough that responding with an insult is funny.
If I said, “Simon’s position on climate change should be rejected because he’s a Hamas supporter” that would be an ad hominem. The phrase refers to the logical fallacy in which one rejects a person’s arguments based on irrelevant characteristics of the speaker.
If I just say, “Simon is a terrible person,” that’s not an ad hominem argument.
No. "This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument."
There's no requirement that the characteristic of the speaker is completely unrelated to the topic, that's just something you added.
Say SimonP was a Hamas supporter (it's pretty damn clear he isn't, but whatever). Ok, you've suggested the motive underlying his argument isn't pure, but lots of people make disingenuous arguments.
In fact, the one argument I can see for that not being an ad hominen is you're not actually rejecting the argument at all, you're just straight up attacking the speaker.
I am not sure what I've said that could possibly be read to be ambiguous on this issue. I have consistently described Hamas's attacks as "terrorism" and "unjustified." The only thing I have not done is consistently pair any discussion about excess in Israel's response with the anti-Hamas shibboleth that David and others seem to require.
Simon has been much more consistently anti-murder-of-civilians than you have, David.
David Nieporent nailed this one.
I caught more than just a whiff of bovine brown organic matter = Under the First Amendment, I should be able to say, “I support the actions and aims of Hamas” (even though, to be clear, I do not).
Genocidal maniac thinks anyone who doesn't support his murderous desires must be supporting the other side!
So, what you're saying is, yes, it should be permitted under the First Amendment to criminalize even uttering that statement?
You're pro-genocide. You probably shouldn't be throwing stones on this topic.
I don't follow every comment of Commenter_XY, but genocide is a harsh charge. Any of you care to back that up?
And spare me any post of his that states that collateral damage, even a lot, in removing Hamas from power, is acceptable. Whatever that sentiment is, genocide it isn't.
He has stated that everyone in Gaza ought to be killed for having voted for Hamas in the first place.
Where? I don't think so. Show me.
Commenter_XY 3 weeks ago
They made their choice at the ballot box. They had agency. Now live with it. Or in this case; die.
Which is not what you imputed to him, you dishonest piece of garbage.
A populace that chooses war has to live with the consequences: war.
Which is a profoundly ugly thing, in which people die.
That is not at all the same thing as saying that everyone who voted for Hamas deserves death.
He was not only saying that everyone who voted for Hamas deserved death, but that everyone who didn't vote for Hamas also deserved death, by association. I don't see any other way to read it.
If Hamas can be charged with wanting "genocide" in Israel, despite lacking the ability to effect it and their actions being inconsistent with such a goal, just based on their charter, then certainly many officials in the Israeli government and commenters here can be charged with wanting the same thing in Gaza, based on what they've said. Never mind the strategy they're actually employing.
Care to identify the "many officials in the Israeli government" who allegedly "want genocide?"
I bet you cannot back up your statement as to even one.
I can, but not for a bad-faith fuck-face like yourself. Not even a clear, direct statement from a currently-sitting official would be sufficient for you. So why try?
IOW, you can't, so you resort to insults. How pathetic. And typical.
Oh, and BTW, your statement "despite lacking the ability to effect it" is risible. The Nazis did not have the ability to eliminate world Jewry, since millions of them were in the Western Hemisphere, beyond their reach. So I guess the Nazis did not commit genocide.
Looks like you've earned muting. Sayonara, you pathetic worm.
Oh no! You mean I'll never again see your asinine commentary responding to my comments again? What ever shall I do?
I don't think I've ever received a comment from you that has required me to adjust my thinking on a matter, because you've found some flaw in my reasoning that I'd overlooked. Brett has managed to do that, on occasion - can you imagine not clearing that low bar?
So muting only helps me save time on responding to you, while dragging you deeper into your own echo chamber. I still derive the main benefit I get from reading and commenting here, which is proving for myself that conservative really are the sociopaths they seem in public life to be.
The next time you flounce like the bad-faith fuck-face that you are, you really don't need to announce it.
Here's one from Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich:
Asked about a weekend settler rampage through the Palestinian village of Huwara, which an Israeli general on Tuesday described as a "pogrom," Smotrich said: "I think that Huwara needs to be erased".
Smotrich added: "I think that the state of Israel needs to do it, but God forbid not individual people."
If calls to erase Israel amount to genocide I'd think calls to erase a town would at least be on the spectrum.
Oh and here's the Ministry of Intelligence proposal to expel the entire population of Gaza into Egypt...
So… you imply that Hamas's purported inability to commit genocide should absolve them and their supporters of the charge. But then you argue that Israel and its supporters are guilty of the charge notwithstanding the fact that Israel hasn't committed genocide despite the ability to do so.
No, I am not implying that.
I am arguing that anyone who attributes to Hamas genocidal intent, based on what Hamas has said and done, must also acknowledge such intent, based on what Israel has said and done.
The First Amendment protects even the most vile utterances, so long as they don’t bleed into active support for criminality. So many pro-Hamas statements are First Amendment protected.
And to appreciate just how vile it is:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/hamas-leader-women-children-elderly-must-die-in-gaza-to-help-our-fight-against-israel
Every death of an innocent in Gaza is a result of a cynical, sick ideology that is willing to sacrifice the blood of one’s own people to achieve a result. The useful idiots and fellow travelers who sometimes post here may be taken in, but anyone with an ounce of honesty and intelligence understands what is going on.
But if the Nazis can march on Skokie, then some lefty professor can express solidarity with Hamas. At least legally. The result should be shunning, but I am not holding my breath.
I would resolve this similarly to, but slightly differently from, the way Professor Volokh did it. I think an organization can be taken at its word for affiliations. I think when an organization promises the public that by joining it you will be “actually part of” Al Qaesa, or Hamas, this does not have to ignored as mere hyerbole. The standard is the standard for violent crime solicitation, not ordinary advertising. If solicitation to commit murder were held to the same standards as solicitation to purchase laundry detergent, a well-advised Don could easily come up with a formula he could present as “just hyperbole.”
At the same time, being a member of “the Movement” is not necessarily the same as being a member of a specific organization. So there may be a need for further evidence here after all.
What are you even talking about? This isn't commercial speech. Advocating for murder is protected speech. Otherwise most of the VC Commentariat would be behind bars.