The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Moral and Strategic Case for Opening Doors to Gaza Refugees
Letting those who want to do so leave and flee abroad is both a moral imperative, and a way to help Israel defeat Hamas faster, and with less harm to innocent people.

As Israel justifiably seeks to crush Hamas in the aftermath of the terrorist group's horrific attack on October 7, Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip are caught in the crossfire. Most of the blame for this rests with Hamas itself, as their fighters use the civilian population as human shields, and do not wear identifying uniforms (the latter is one of Hamas's many violations of the laws and customs of war). But, regardless of whose fault it is, innocent civilians will continue to suffer and die as the conflict intensifies.
If given the opportunity, many Gaza civilians would likely flee abroad to escape the fighting, as have numerous civilians caught up in other recent wars, such as those in Syria, Ukraine, and elsewhere. Letting them do so is both a moral imperative, and a way to help Israel defeat Hamas.
But the Egyptian government and other Arab states are blocking refugees from fleeing Gaza. Even as they shed crocodile tears for the plight of Palestinians, they refuse to let them leave a dangerous war zone. And to the extent they - and Western backers of the Palestinian cause - really believe the oft-heard claim that Gaza is an "open air prison," there is a strong moral imperative to let the unjustly confined "prisoners" leave, if they want to. Even aside from the current war, many might prefer not to live in poverty and oppression under Hamas's brutal medieval theocracy.
Egypt is one of the biggest recipients of US military assistance and other foreign aid. That funding can be used as leverage to force the authoritarian regime of President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi to reverse its cruel policy.
There is an obvious moral case for doing so. Many innocent civilians are threatened with death or injury, and in addition are ruled by a deeply oppressive regime. Letting those who want to escape is a way to help them escape injustice. Blocking them from doing so by force (as Egypt has been doing) is a grave wrong.
The most obvious response to the moral case for opening the door to Gaza Palestinian refugees is the idea that they don't deserve refuge because they bear responsibility for Hamas and its depredations. If they didn't support Hamas, there would be no terrorism, and no war.
But, just as most ordinary Russians are not responsible for the evils of Vladimir Putin's regime and its war on Ukraine, so most ordinary Gazans aren't responsible for Hamas. Like Putin's Russia, Gaza under Hamas is an authoritarian regime that brutally represses dissent.
It is true that Hamas won a plurality in a legislative election in 2006. But it then seized executive power by force, and has not held any even remotely free elections since. A large majority of current Gaza Palestinians never had a meaningful chance to influence Hamas's policies, much less remove it from power. Almost half of Gaza's population consists of children under the age of 18; many others were too young to participate in the 2006 election. You don't have to be a political theorist to recognize that children are not morally responsible for the evil policies of the government that rules over them.
It is true that some significant percentage of adult Gazans do support Hamas, its awful ideology, and its terrorism. But many others do not. A July 2023 poll conducted by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy found that 62% of Gaza Palestinians wanted to maintain a ceasefire with Israel, and 50% agreed that "Hamas should stop calling for Israel's destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders." A large majority also said they preferred Palestinian Authority rule to Hamas.
Polls conducted in areas ruled by repressive regimes should be viewed with caution. But, if anything, this one may underestimate the true extent of opposition to Hamas policies. Some respondents might have been afraid to express views inimical to Gaza's rulers, for fear the latter would find out about it and punish them. Even if the pollster was completely independent (as this one was) and would keep answers confidential, wary respondents might not believe such assurances or at least not be willing to take the risk they might be false.
Even some of those who do not support Hamas may hold abhorrent views on other issues, including anti-Semitic sentiments of a kind all too common in the Arab world. But people should not be forcibly condemned to tyranny and death in war merely because they may have some awful views - especially if they have them in large part because of ubiquitous, difficult-to-avoid indoctrination. And, even more obviously, such things should not be held against the large part of the population that consists of children.
Arab rulers who refuse to take Gaza refugees claim they do so because it would undermine the cause of Palestinian statehood, and the Israelis might not allow them to return to Gaza. In reality, Israel has little interest in annexing Gaza or settling Israel Jews there. Whatever can be said of the West Bank, even most Israeli right-wingers do not want to keep Gaza. For that reason, Israel also has little reason to keep refugees from returning. This line of argument also ignores the fact that the Palestinian leadership could have long since had a state including all of Gaza and nearly all of the West Bank if they had accepted the offers extended to them by Israel and the US in 2000, 2001, and 2008.
In addition, it is wrong to forcibly compel people - including large numbers of children - to endure war and repression merely to support a nationalistic project. If this is what the Palestinian "cause" requires, it's a strong indication that cause is at odds with the rights and interests of actual Palestinians. Those who would prefer to seek a better life elsewhere should be allowed to do so.
In other contexts, hardly anyone says that refugees should be barred from fleeing war and oppression in order to bolster the cause of their nation. While Vladimir Putin's efforts to conquer Ukraine and annex large parts of it are illegal and unjust, virtually no one argues that Ukrainian refugees must therefore be blocked from fleeing in order to oppose Russia's claims. It would be absurd to contend that helping Ukrainians flee Russian invasion and oppression is somehow anti-Ukrainian by making it easier for Putin to hold on to the regions he claims, and few if any observers advance such arguments. Indeed, it would be a grave wrong to prevent Ukrainians from fleeing, which is one of the reasons why the US, Canada, and European nations have opened their doors to Ukrainian refugees.
Western nations would also do well to open their doors to Gaza refugees, in addition to pressuring Arab states on this point. Refugees willing to go there would surely have greater freedom and opportunity in the West than in poor and authoritarian Arab states.
The standard argument against this - deployed by GOP politicians in the US - is that Palestinian refugees pose a security threat. But any such danger is overblown. Cato Institute immigration policy expert Alex Nowrasteh has compiled a database of terrorism incidents involving immigrants to the US from 1975 to 2022. During that entire period, Palestinian migrants killed a total of three people in terrorist attacks on US soil. While it's difficult to make precisely accurate rate calculations with such a small number, that amounts to a per-migrant risk not much greater than that posed by native-born Americans. Another way of looking at this issue is that the average American faces a vastly greater annual risk of being killed by a lightning strike than by a Palestinian immigrant terrorist (about 28 Americans are killed by lighting annually). And that would still be true even if the danger from the latter were several times greater than it is now. And, of course, the period in question includes many confrontations between Israelis and Palestinians that one might expect to incite violence by would-be terrorists.
Moreover, Hamas has instructed Palestinians to stay put. Those who defy Hamas' orders are likely to be disproportionately those least supportive of its awful ideology, and least likely to engage in acts of terrorism inspired by it.
In addition to the moral imperative, there is also a strategic rationale for letting Palestinians who wish to flee Gaza do so. Reducing the number of civilians present during the fighting will also reduce Hamas's opportunities to use them as human shields. That factor is likely one of the reasons why Hamas wants them to stay, and has installed roadblocks to impede flight (they also generally don't want to reduce the number of people under their control).
Letting refugees flee would save innocent lives, protect human rights, and help Israel defeat Hamas faster. It's a win-win for anyone who support human rights and wants to see Hamas defeated.
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Palestinians, wherever they have been let in (Gaza, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan) have only resorted to Violent Islamacism and started wars / Civil Wars. For decades. Add in 1948 where they rejected way more land than they ever have been offered since.
So saying Palestinian immigrants have a history of low terrorism is simply false. Ask Jordan and Egypt their answer to this question.
I wish the Palestinian people chose peace. But do you see them in any way rising up against Hamas? Peacefully protesting? Demanding Hamas stop stealing aid and providing services? I see Iranian people constantly rising up against their Religious Dictators and it's well known the majority of Iranians don't support religious fanatics.
Unfortunately I don't see evidence if that in Gaza, where do you find such evidence.
Add in 1948 where they rejected way more land than they ever have been offered since.
Right, they absolutely should have accepted half the land when they made up 2/3 of the population. Especially since they made up closer to 90% of the population 25 years earlier. [The UN actually voted on Nov. 29, 1947 for the partition plan]
The bulk of the Israeli land was the Negev Desert. Not exactly prime farming land.
not sure the 90% is correct.
The region was sparsely populated ( not the best land for farming) in the mid to late 1800’s when the zionist movement to present day Israel started. As the zionist movement began with Jewish immigration, there as also a large palestinian/jordanian migration into the region to take advantage of the increased prosperity of the region .
Wikipedia has good history of population of the region. The region was primarily christian and jewish until the 10th or 11th century when it became primarily muslim.
That's what I was looking at as well. It is clear to me that the Jewish population was very low for centuries prior to the Zionist movement that began in the late 1800s.
There is nothing wrong with such migration. I am pointing out that this occurred while the population of that region was controlled by a foreign power and with that power's support. Americans like myself tend to strongly believe in people's right to self-determination. The Palestinian Arabs of that time did not have that.
How much of the US do you think the Native American tribes should accept today? They were around 50% of the population in the 1760s.
How much of the US do you think the Native American tribes should accept today?
No one is going to try and return land taken from Native Americans centuries ago to their descendants several generations removed from those events. What we should do is to stop pretending that the history doesn't matter in the present and that Native Americans living on reservations that were some of the least desirable lands in the U.S. are on their own to improve their lot in life.
So, you re not arguing any logical or moral position, just a temporal one? So if Israel manages to hold on for another hundred years or so, we'll move on the same way we moved on with Native Americans?
Actually, I am arguing a moral position if you read closely. I believe that it is wrong to simply "move on" and leave Native Americans to work their way out of poverty on their own, given the historical injustices inflicted upon them as a people. We should be working with them and their leaders now to give them the assistance that they say that they need to reach a quality of life that they desire (up to and including parity with the rest of America).
Of course, there aren't radical tribal groups taking up arms against the United States government and routinely attacking and murdering ordinary American civilians, so any failure to give them all of this is entirely our moral failure. That is where any parallels between Palestinians and other groups historically dispossessed of their lands breaks down.
The figures from the British Mandate period are where I get that estimate. The Zionist movement had been in existence for at least two decades by the time the British took control, and the Jewish population was 11% in 1922, by their estimates. The rest were Muslim and Christian Arabs.
Jason - I think we are in general agreement.
My main point was that both the Jewish population and the palestinian population had large migration into present day Israel, with the bulk of the Palestinian migration due to take advantage of the increased prosperity in the region resulting from the Jewish developments
But I don't agree that the increase in Arab Muslim population had a large increase due to migration, at least not between 1922 and 1947. According to the British data I linked, the migratory increase in the Muslim and Christian populations was around ~18,000 each while the migratory increase in the Jewish population was over 300,000.
If you concede that "There is nothing wrong with such migration" , then what's your point? Jews found the area more desirable than Arabs, and moved there.
There is nothing wrong with people from other parts of the world coming to the U.S. either. But as the current population, we have a right of self-determination to have a government that will represent our desires on how to manage immigration.
I see a lot of excuses being made for how Israel came to be. Whether it is based on how the Jewish migrants were persecuted elsewhere or the terrorism and warfare perpetrated on Israelis after it became a state Palestinians and Arab neighbors, those excuses don't work. They don't apply to the non-Jewish people living in Palestine prior to 1948. What happened later in history or in other parts of the world does not negate the rights they had to determine the fate of their own lands.
The non-Jewish people living in Palestine prior to 1948 were offered exactly the same deal as the Jewish ones- a state where they could achieve self-determination , covering the area they inhabited,
They not only said 'no' to that, they tried to prevent the Jewish population from achieving self-determination in their part of the land.
When you start a war and lose, there are consequences. Ask the Sudetenland Germans.
That's a strange definition of self-determination you are using if they only get it after outside forces allow them to have it according to constraints imposed by those forces.
Also, the violence in Palestine prior to Israel declaring its independence was not entirely one-way. And I keep finding references from the time that show a large fraction of the privately held land in the proposed Jewish partition of the UN plan to be held by Arabs, along with accounts of hundreds of thousands of Arabs being displaced from their homes prior to the Arab League entering the war on their side and hundreds of Arab villages being destroyed.
Trying to be objective in my perspective, the creation of Israel seems to have been a bloody and horribly mishandled situation with no clear good side and bad side. Perhaps there never was going to be a peaceful solution that all would agree with as the Zionists and Muslim Arabs in Palestine simply had mutually exclusive goals for what their independent states should be. We will never know what could have been, but we can't whitewash the history and pretend that Israel was always destined to be a Jewish state by God-given right. That is just not the historical truth.
I’m sorry you’re too violent. Also: why haven’t you started a civil war against a ruthless heavily-armed ultraviolent group funded by Iran AND Israel?
As of about today, Hamas will no longer have fuel to ventilate its tunnels. That means that the rats will have to come to the surface and the IDF can shoot them.
There are no truly innocent people there -- and we absolutely do not want them here!!!
As of today, Hamas fuel stockpiles are denied to ordinary Gazans for propaganda purposes and reserved to Hamas military operations. The 300 miles of tunnels will remain in service until the IDF employs thermobaric munitions to depopulate them.
This is a lovely suicide note you've just written but I refuse to let it apply to me.
That is mainly what we get from Somin. He posts about one suicide note a week. I think he hates America, and is trying to destroy it.
"I think [Ilya Somin] hates America, and is trying to destroy it."
The key is to ask yourself what he would be doing differently if he were actually trying to destroy America. The answer: nothing.
You are right. I am not a mind-reader. I do not know what his motives are. I just notice that he regularly posts in favor of importing large numbers of the worst people into the USA.
You're already here.
Prof. Somin:
Why do you continue to participate at a blog whose target audience consists of half-educated, right-wing bigots who despise your libertarian views?
Unless you (1) share the thinking of these disaffected culture war casualties or (2) enjoy mocking them and spotlighting their deplorable nature, why contribute to this white, male, obsolete, faux libertarian blog?
Associating with these assholes diminishes your advocacy and the institution that employs you.
Answer,
Because no one takes anything you say here seriously. None of your assertions have any meaning. Everyone knows you have no moral or intellectual standing to define what "diminishes? anything.
You are going to hate the next few decades of American progress.
What do you think of UCLA's campus improvement project?
Well, he is Russian. Why does he not suggest that Russia take them? Then they can go straight to the Eastern Front, in Ukraine. Win, win.
Maybe send them to Beslan
For the Culturally Ill-literate and millennials who believe history started in 2020, Beslan was:
The Beslan school siege (also referred to as the Beslan school hostage crisis or the Beslan massacre) was a terrorist attack that started on 1 September 2004, lasted three days, involved the imprisonment of more than 1,100 people as hostages (including 777 children) and ended with the deaths of 333 people, 186 of them children, as well as 31 of the attackers. It is considered to be the deadliest school shooting in history.[
Even if his position on immigration started out as reasoned, at this point it has devolved into fanaticism.
"The standard argument against this – deployed by GOP politicians in the US – is that Palestinian refugees pose a security threat. But any such danger is overblown."
I don't see how you could possibly look at pro-Israeli demonstrators being physically attacked in the US, and conclude that. Muslims may be just over a percent of the US population, way up from former levels due to a bizarre policy of encouraging their immigration, but they punch WAY above their weight class in terms of the amount of terrorism they commit.
And Somin would extend a welcome to the group so fanatical even their fellow Muslims are afraid of them.
You guys wrestling with someone who sticks to his principles would be funny in other circumstances.
Also, nice blood libel on Muslims.
They started it
I don't think Muslims murder Christians in order to use their blood in some religious ceremony, Nige. They just murder them, at a disproportionately high rate, because as a matter of religious doctrine they think that's the appropriate thing to do with members of competing religions.
Funny you should mention "blood libel" in this context, though. We're actually discussing people who were literally taught the blood libel as fact in school.
Collective guilt is bigotry, Brett.
When you don't have individualized information you have to operate on the basis of statistics. Or throw up your hands.
I get that Somin wants us to throw up our hands, and just admit anybody who isn't happy with where they are now, and the Care Bears in the TSA will nice beam them into being good Americans.
You, too?
Statistically, as an American, there's far more blood on your hands.
Statistically, no, that's total bullshit.
I’m glad we agree that using statistics for that purpose is bullshit.
Well, Nige wrote it. Bullshit is just assumed by default.
I dunno, if you chalk up Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, assorted secret South American, Middle East and Pacific escapades, The Gulf War, Afghanistan, Iraq... US civilians share the responsibility for a lot of dead people. If you're going to go that way.
I could be totally wrong, but somehow it seems like "Hamas is just the Palestinian military" is not exactly a favorable argument for you.
They're a paramilitary organisation who acheived dominance through outside support. If anything that makes Palestinians even less collectively responsible than Americans for their standing military, and that's before you even get to the huge class of 'Muslims.' It's a terrible argument with terrible implications.
" if you chalk up Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, assorted secret South American, Middle East and Pacific escapades, The Gulf War, Afghanistan, Iraq"
Sure, if you deliberately ignore who started WWII, and various other wars, you can really inflate the total. I'll gladly grant that the US has started some wars itself. But most of your butcher bill is coming from wars other people started.
Oh, now you want to look at root causes and shift responsibility all of a sudden?
When you don’t have individualized information you have to operate on the basis of statistics.
No, you don't.
Because that kind of collectivist analysis is bigotry.
Sarcastr0 1 hour ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Collective guilt is bigotry, Brett.
Sarcastr0 22 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Group libel is not some hard-bitten truth telling, it’s hate and bigotry.
Kinda rich coming from a progressive/woke that embraces disparate impact and reparations and other forms of group guilt
So you're agreeing with him.
No Nige - please display some level intellectual honesty
My point is that Sacastro like most other progressives embrace collective guilt when it fits their partisan viewpoint and reject collective guilt when it fits the partisan viewpoint.
So you’re disagreeing with him and think attributing collective guilt to people is the right thing to do.
Nige 10 mins ago (edited)
Flag Comment Mute User
So you’re disagreeing with him and think attributing collective guilt to people is the right thing to do.
Nige you really are quite dense and lack any ability to understand the topic
You lack the ability to say whether you agree or disagree with Sarcastro.
Disparate impact is not group guilt.
But I'm glad you think group guilt is bad. That puts you ahead of Brett.
You are grossly misstating Bretts comment.
Disparate impact is used as a backdoor to claim racism, which is a variation of the group guilt/racism theme embraced by progressives.
You also seem to be rushing to accusations of hypocrisy rather than argue for or against Sarcastro's premise.
No, that is precisely what Brett is saying - 'we gotta use statistics to condemn these individuals' is group guilt.
Disparate impact is not used as a backdoor to claim racism, you're just itching for a fight.
Sarcastr0 22 mins ago Flag Comment Mute User No, that is precisely what Brett is saying – ‘we gotta use statistics to condemn these individuals’ is group guilt.
Sacastro – you are intentionally misstating Bretts comment so that you can accuse him of something he didnt state. Its typically of your dishonest accusatory arguments.
Sarcastr0 22 mins ago Flag Comment Mute User “Disparate impact is not used as a backdoor to claim racism, you’re just itching for a fight. Disparate impact is not used as a backdoor to claim racism, you’re just itching for a fight.”
It is absolutely used to claim racism. That is the purpose of disparate impact – Again you are intentionally being dishonest
You're just stamping your foot at this point. No arguments, just 'you are wrong and bad.'
Come back with substance, or just slink away. This is just sad.
It's not a question of 'accuse", Sarcastr0. We're not talking about jailing or fining people, just about not extending them a benefit nobody who isn't a citizen has any entitlement to.
"Nah, I don't like the odds." isn't an accusation. It isn't, in large part because these people are in no way whatsoever entitled to what they're being denied. They're just not getting a gift.
Not offering someone an immigration visa is not “condemning” them or punishing them or finding them guilty in any way.
The U.S. does not annually “condemn” the billions of people that aren’t imported here. What a silly, pompous, U.S.-centric, open borders way of thinking.
Not offering someone an immigration visa is not “condemning” them or punishing them or finding them guilty in any way.
This is correct.
But the rationale for why not to do so around here is all about condemnation and collective guilt.
“Nah, I don’t like the odds.” isn’t an accusation
It is fundamentally immoral to take some statistics (statistics which DMN below show don't say what you think) and treat individuals based on propensity.
Propensity evidence is disallowed in US courts not because of lack of probity, but because it's not in keeping with America's morality, which is based on the individual.
“But the rationale for why not to do so around here is all about condemnation and collective guilt.”
No. Not at all. You’re confusing “condemnation and collective guilt” with excessive risk.
Somin is proposing that we undertake a substantial risk. We don’t think it’s worth taking. This doesn’t require us to think any particular Gazan would be a terrorist, we just have to think the odds aren’t great.
"It is fundamentally immoral to take some statistics (statistics which DMN below show don’t say what you think) and treat individuals based on propensity."
It's perfectly moral to take statistics and treat individuals based on them, when you're handing out something they are in no way entitled to get.
Getting to enter this country is, if you are not a citizen, or at least a Green card holder, not an entitlement. It's a gift, and you can be arbitrary with gifts without violating anybody's rights, because by definition nobody has a right to a gift to begin with.
America does not do risk analyses on people based on statistical correlations.
I can tell you that because research protection is something I do.
And we do a particularized assessment, that doesn't say 'you're of Chinese extraction, no grant for you.'
What you want to do is just not aligned with America's moral system. It is, in fact, deeply collectivist.
You may not see that, but that's on you.
"America does not do risk analyses on people based on statistical correlations."
Like hell we don't. What I'm describing is, in fact, how immigration normally works when open borders fanatics aren't in charge.
What I find truly funny about Sarcastro's posts in this thread is how fiercely he defends sociology when it's mocked as a soft science, but here he is flat out denying the entire field and all the statistical science its based on.
It is unsurprising you don't know what sociology is or what it's properly used for.
Murdering people for religion? Sounds close enough to blood libel to do. It does for you, after all.
You're forgetting something: Truth is an absolute defense against libel.
Group libel is not some hard-bitten truth telling, it's hate and bigotry.
That's what they said abuout the Jews. Still do, probably. Also the gays, the trans, women and black people. But if you say it about men, the most statistically violent group on the planet, it's misandry.
You think they should be elsewhere? Fine.
That doesn't automatically mean HERE. Sorry.
Gaza is a nest of death squads. There's a reason none of the Arab nations will take them. No.
Yes. Good reasons. And good reasons that the Jews bailed out. Just thinking about those Gaza terrorists makes me want to bring back the Trump Moslem travel ban.
It was a good thought but didn't go far enough, only banning Moose-lums from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen, The revised "bans" were even less effective.
I think you could find bipartisan support and money for a giant airlift of Gaza refugees to Qatar.
Might want to let the Qataris know so they can get the machine guns set up.
Watch it, Drackman. Shit like that can get you tossed off campus. Just ask . . .
ah, never mind.
Carry on, clingers. So long as your betters -- that includes a dean or two -- permit.
Jerry Sandusky advising me on how not to get "tossed off campus"??
And I don't eat vegetables so don't even try to tell me how to toss a Salad like you do.
Frank
Can we start with the LGBTQ groups for Palestine taking them in?
We can make it a reality TV show that will make "Jersey Shore" and "Real Housewives" look like Masterpiece Theater.
Why doesn’t Israel just open its door to Gazan refugees? You don’t have a problem with refugees, do you? They can just walk on over if only Israel took your advice.
Precisely! "Mr. Netanyahu, tear down this wall!" would not be wise.
Wisely, the US recognizes people having the desire to kill -- that is, both militant Islamists and militant Zionists -- are threats to our way of life. (see, for example, https://www.foxnews.com/politics/cbp-memo-sounds-alarm-hamas-hezbollah-fighters-potentially-using-southern-border-enter-us )
This is another example of someone who screams "YIMBY!" actually meaning "Yes in YOUR backyard." The hypocrisy is astounding.
What exactly is that an "example" of besides lunatic xenophobic scaremongering? The number of terrorist attacks in the U.S. committed by people who snuck across the southern border: same as the number of terrorist attacks in the U.S. committed by Elvis impersonators.
They don't have to sneak. Every single one of the 9-11 Hijackers went right through US Customs at major US Airports, probably had Ilya greeting them.
Walk? paragliding is much cooler.
Arthur Kirkland is a Johnny-One-Note, and gets grief for it, but the comments here bear him out.
Ilya is as right as one can be here.
Which bitter clingers who mention some racial slurs while having previously used a web site that censored other slurs are being replaced by their betters in this case?
If there's a Jay Hey (I have my doubts given 10-7) one of your political refugees will give someone you love a 7.62x39mm lobotomy.
Now that's funny! I don't care who you are.
One note?
I guess that would be this blog's racism.
The gay-bashing? That's another note.
Another note? Prof. Volokh's anti-trans (or is it just trans?) fetish.
Another note? Islamophobia.
Another note? Antisemitism.
Another note? Xenophobia.
Another note: Childish superstition in reasoned debate.
Don't forget the misogyny. And that brings us back to "doh."
As I have demonstrated, enough notes to create a masterpiece.
(Let's hope I don't develop stage fright.)
Sure is a lot of hate in these comments. Hard to take you seriously when you accuse other people of antisemitism.
This is meant in a most loving way: Fuck you and Fuck Somin.
Forgot to add Fuck captcrisis, too.
and the stalking horses they rode in on.
Remember that point when you, the Volokh Conspirators, and the other clingers are groveling at the feet of the culture war's winners, begging for leniency and trying desperately to preserve a few safe spaces for our society's residual right-wing bigots.
Why would anyone be skeptical about opening their doors to the kind of groups that just murdered 1000+ people in a cold-blooded terror attack while live-streaming their atrocities and calling home to boast about how many people they killed because of religion?
It's hard to take you seriously when you complain... about anything.
Somin didn't suggest accepting Hamas refugees.
There are Israeli Jewish terrorists who boast about how many people they kill because of religion in cold-blooded terror attacks. Should we attribute that behavior to Israeli Jews generally?
He didn’t suggest any way of distinguishing Hamas terrorists from the Gaza residents he WOULD admit.
Sure, let’s assume that, after the better part of two decades of Hamas running the Gazan schools as Jihadi factories, that a majority of Gazans are loving and peaceful. Let’s just take that as given.
So, only 40% of those we let in would be murderous fanatics? Well, that’s OK, then! [/sarc]
His argument, if you can call it that, is that immigrants from Gaza commit practically no terrorism in the US. Of course, this may be due to the fact that there are practically no immigrants from Gaza in the US at the moment… Countries with more immigrants from there haven’t found that to be the case.
What Somin continually ignores is that, at high levels of immigration, a nation is what it "eats". Assimilation runs both ways; The immigrants don't just become American, America becomes more like the immigrants, too.
So, I'll ask Somin, straight up, as I have before: What exactly is it about Gaza that you'd like the US to become more like? Be specific, please, and suggest how we can make sure that's the only way in which we will assimilate THEIR values.
Ilya the Lesser will never answer you, Brett.
Really shallow stuff.
No wonder you like Ilya Shapiro, who proved to be pretty unserious himself post-twitter furor.
Shapiro = Ilya the Somewhat More 🙂
His executive judgment is suspect, IMO.
The way you dumbasses are painting yourselves into increasingly small and lonely corners, you need every ally and friend you can get.
Well, you would know about "Confined Spaces" Coach.
https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
S-S-S-S-S-S-S-t-t-t-t-t-t-t uttering John Fetterman still hasn't come through with your Commutation?? Those things do seem to happen towards the end of Political terms...
Frank
We're pretty good at this. Lots of places have terrorists -- including Israel. That doesn't stop us from allowing immigration from those places.
Israel the terrorists! Hamas is right, kill all Jews. -Randal
Fuck off Nazi scum.
No, we are NOT "pretty good at this". We are freaking terrible at this, because there isn't any way to be good at this. We don't have that magical mind reading machine. At best we can ask some questions, and get some references.
Which in this case would be from Hamas...
I don't know what USCIS does to vet people, but their track record is actually pretty decent, no?
No kidding. What's two measly 110-floor office towers among friends?
Hold your nose, squeeze your knees together and fart, you could clear out your mind.
Or a marathon in a city like Boston.
I would change immigration policy to 'What is in the national interest' to allow TEMPORARY refuge status and then review that status on a 90 day basis. Entry into the United States is not a right, human or otherwise.
If I was 'pope of this dump', I would review the status of all visa's from any country that is openly hostile to the US or to Bonafide national interests.
I don't believe in importing problems. We have plenty already.
" . . . America becomes more like the immigrants, too."
WOW Brett!
I don't recall you ever writing something more absolutely truthful than this.
But you might want to reflect what the statement really means and maybe get back to us.
They will not "replace" Brett!
I'll ask you, too, since you consider that point true: In what exact way would you like the US to become more like Gaza? Because that IS the inevitable effect of importing Gazans to America.
Back when Margaret Thatcher betrayed the residents of Hong Kong, deprived them of their prexisting right to travel within the UK in advance of the handover to China, so that China would get the people, too, not just empty buildings, I advocated that we take everyone who wanted to leave Hong Kong.
I advocated this because I thought they would contribute positively to our culture.
I see nothing positive about Gazan culture for us to benefit from mixing with our own.
In what exact way would you like the US to become more like Gaza.
Population of Gaza: 2.048 million
Population of US: 331.9 million
If every single person comes over, we're talking 0.6% of our population, Brett.
Quit leaning on this awful argument.
Which would be just about the same as the estimated percentage of transgender people in the U.S..
So you're absolutely right -- not a snowball's chance in hell of any sort of disproportionate influence on our existing culture!
Another minority for you to target, so there's that.
You're not citing in what way a bunch of people with terrible education and a long history of brutal bigotry (let's settle them in SF, for shits and giggles) will improve the USA in any way.
That is the only reason we should accept ANYBODY in here.
More collective guilt.
Also, Prof. Somin's case is not based on US benefit (though it implicitly assumes there won't be much of a loss - something I think is supported so long as you're not a bigot.)
US benefit is the only reason to allow immigrants period. Hate to break it to you.
I'm not as far as Somin on this, but your defensive crouch nationalism is immoral and impractical.
You just came out against refugee programs. Congrats on being a piece of shit.
Abuse the program and you lose it. Tragic.
Sarcastr0, that's not a "they'd be good for us" argument. That's a "we could survive doing it" argument.
Yeah, we could survive doing as Somin advocates, in the case of the Gazans, (But not generally!) because there are so few of them. Things would get measurably worse in the US, but not fatally so.
Is that really a good argument for a policy? "We'd survive doing it!"?
No, Brett. Be clear.
You were argument a *practical cost* thesis. I pointed out that's nonsense.
Now you claim to be arguing a *lack of practical benefit* thesis this whole time. Bullshit.
As to your new goalpost, you're right - Prof. Somin doesn't argue benefit. Moral arguments are things that exist.
I'm not sold on his argument myself, but good lord the counterarguments are logically faulty when they are not bigoted.
"You were argument a *practical cost* thesis. I pointed out that’s nonsense.
Now you claim to be arguing a *lack of practical benefit* thesis this whole time. Bullshit. "
Costs and benefits always go together, it is benefits that justify incurring costs.
"As to your new goalpost, you’re right – Prof. Somin doesn’t argue benefit. Moral arguments are things that exist."
They are, and if Somin were offering to hand out something that was his to give, yeah, no problem. He wants the government to hand something out, instead.
It's an agent/principal matter: The principal can engage in charity, (Which is what Somin proposes.) because the principal is being charitable with what is theirs. The AGENT can not engage in charity, because what they'd be charitable with isn't theirs.
The government is our agent, not the other way around. It is obligated to act in OUR interest, not in the interest of others at our expense.
Somin is continually failing to grasp this: The government MUST act in the interest of its citizens, with the interest of others being just a side constraint, because it is in a special relationship with the citizens, and NOT with those others.
Somin can be charitable with what is his. The government cannot, properly. It must be motivated by citizens' interests in all things.
Costs and benefits always go together
Nonsense. You switched goalposts and don't want to admit it.
Government decisions have a moral component; making moral arguments about them is legit. You do this *regularly* when you talk about free markets being an inherent good.
Prof. Somin is advocating via an argument about America's moral interest and Israel's practical interest.
That is not an illegitimate argument - you go too far in saying that.
Benefits and costs are the same thing, just different signs. Arguing that one exceeds the other for a net benefit or cost can be done either by talking up one side or down the other. A good argument requires addressing both simultaneously, of course.
Arguing 'this cost is unacceptably high' is a different thesis than 'there is no benefit.'
Good arguments don't need to be a full-on cost benefit analysis. The general argument 'this cost is unacceptably high' is a legit argument. I just think the cost as laid forth by Brett was incorrect.
He kinda seems to agree, having moved from that argument to a different one.
Sarcastr0, every time you mistake what somebody’s argument is, and they correct you, every damn time, you claim that they’ve ‘moved on’ to a new argument. You don’t seem to be capable of grasping that you frequently are mistaken about what somebody’s argument was in the first place.
Brett: "What exactly is it about Gaza that you’d like the US to become more like"
Also Brett: Is that really a good argument for a policy? “We’d survive doing it!”?
As I explained, these are not the same thesis - one is about a cost the other is about a lack of benefit.
Either learn to read or quit lying.
Yeah, not like they fuck each other and have kids or anything
Everybody wants to cheer on the war, better that it's at one remove, that Israel is being the sin-eater for killing lots of people - we just provide big chunks of money - then go apoplectic at the slightest suggestion that some of the actual costs and consequences might fall on the US.
What's your position on elderly, white, male, disaffected, autistic, bigoted, superstitious, delusional, antisocial, drawling backwater culture?
Ans: We don’t like you.
Dammit! you beat me to it.
That you guys resent and despise the modern American mainstream is not a news flash.
However, better Americans increasingly lack interest in what you guys resent, think, or want.
Jerry Sandusky is "Mainstream"???
Think I'll stay out of the water,
Frank
Are there "Hamas refugees"? Wouldn't any self-respecting Hamas terrorist be too busy destroying Israel to flee the Gaza Strip?
Your assertion is effectively that all residents of Gaza are Hamas supporters, and therefore dangerous (and presumably, valid targets for military action). Including women, old people and children.
It's a neat "solution".
The truth is often unpleasant to those who will not see.
i.e "Rachel" Levine's not an ugly chick, but an ugly old man, Parkinsonian Joe will be lucky to live 6 months with his rapidly progressing Parkinson's, Floyd George was a 2 bit thug who the world is much better off without. The expanded "College Foo-bawl Playoff" will be dominated by the SEC
Wait! I've got more!
Frank
Frank
Yeah, I don't think Gaza has the population to change America's character, Brett.
But this is a nice old argument that's been used against just about every race around, from the Chinese to the Irish. It's never come to pass.
You really are playing some old hits of bigotry.
They don't have the population to change our character a lot, sure. But I doubt any of that change will be for the better. And a higher background level of terror is hardly going to improve our national character, either.
AGAIN, I will ask: How exactly do you plan to vet the immigrants? They're coming from an area where the local government is literally a terrorist organization, so public records aren't going to be much help.
I doubt any of that change will be for the better
More collective guilt.
higher background level of terror
More collective guilt.
People are not statistics. Why not use the same argument and expel black people due to their background crime rate?
How exactly do you plan to vet the immigrants That’s not my department, but speculative future fears based on collective guilt is not how we do things.
We have a good track record, do we not? Most of our terrorism remains home-grown.
When other Arab states want nothing to do with them and more than half of the residents support Hamas and support 10/7 --- I see no benefit to us in bringing them here.
Lebanon learned the hard way what bringing them in causes.
So now you're emulating Arab states?
I wouldn't invite a dog that was not housebroken into my house.
Why are you suddenly mad at puppies?
Not angry at puppies. Angry at the piss they leave on the floor.
A fairly apropos description of the Gazans.
damikesc thinks Gazans are pissing on his floor.
'Where's all this piss coming from? Damn Gazans!'
No. DaMikeSC thinks if we allow the Gazans in, THEN they will piss on our floor.
Best to avoid that. Piss in carpet is rough to get out.
So the piss is imaginary. Walking around in a flood of imaginary piss. That's no way to go through life.
...or you could understand analogies.
I know, false hope and all.
Anybody else notice how Gaza is running low on EVERYTHING...except rockets? They still have plenty of those.
Look, you can't make facts go away by reciting, "collective guilt!". People aren't statistics, but unless you have individualized information about specific people, you have no choice but to treat them on the basis of statistics.
"Why not use the same argument and expel black people due to their background crime rate?"
Because,
1. They're already citizens, dumbass, so expelling them isn't an option. This is a point Somin aggressively ignores: Non-citizens stand in a different relationship to a government than citizens do!
2. We largely DO have individualized information, because they're citizens of our own country!
But, yeah, IF you had some foreign group with the crime statistics of inner city blacks, AND you had no individual information on them that was reliable, because the government they were under was hostile, you wouldn't admit them, either.
Every damned country that has accepted Gazans, and we're talking countries where they were actually a better cultural fit, has regretted it. We're simply not going to ignore that, no matter how much Somin wants us to.
"We have a good track record, do we not? Most of our terrorism remains home-grown."
I keep pointing this out: Muslims are barely over 1% of our population, and until recently were just a fraction of our population. OF COURSE the percentage of American terrorist incidents that Muslims are responsible for is low in absolute terms. Doesn't change the fact that the percentage of American terrorist incidents they're responsible for is much higher than their percentage of the population.
And a lot of it is technically "home grown", because it's by the 2nd generation, not the first.
Isn’t it a terrible problem. Can’t think why anyone thought it was a good idea to keep this conflict going and then escalate it to make everything even worse rather than working towards some sort of settlement. Easier and sexier to be macho military tough guys, I guess. Pity no-one ever remembers that refugees are a byprodcuct.
‘OF COURSE the percentage of American terrorist incidents that Muslims are responsible for is low in absolute terms.’
You made the same argument about one trans mass shooter. Still bollocks.
“Can’t think why anyone thought it was a good idea to keep this conflict going”
Maybe because one side in the conflict is a genocidal terrorist organization descended from Nazism by way of the Muslim Brotherhood? The other side has no choice but to keep the conflict going, or lose.
I the case of the trans mass shooter, the absolute numbers were too small to have statistical significance, and I expressly noted that. They're not that small in the case of Muslims.
"Isn’t it a terrible problem. Can’t think why anyone thought it was a good idea to keep this conflict going and then escalate it to make everything even worse rather than working towards some sort of settlement."
Israel has tried.
Repeatedly.
"Palestine" refuses.
Yup, it's gotta be Israel's fault, not those poor "Palestinians".
'Maybe because one side in the conflict is a genocidal terrorist organization descended from Nazism'
Didn't say it would be easy. Pretty sure I made it clear this is the hard road.
'and I expressly noted that.'
No, what you failed to note was that the lack of trans shooter up to that and since point is also data.
'Statistically you're a terrorist' is a fantastic stance for a so-called libertarian to take.
'Israel has tried.
Repeatedly.'
Netanyahu funded and supported Hamas precisely so he wouldn't have to try and he'd have an eternal enemy/scapegoat to keep hardliners like himself in power.
"Israel funded and supported the elected government of Gaza precisely because progressives demand that Israel do so."
FTFY.
Netanyahu's a progressive now?
This is false. Israel could've decided to fight it out or compromise for peace. Instead they decided they'd rather keep the conflict going at as cold of a level as possible for decades and decades, despite the impact to the Palestinians. It's a decision worth criticizing them for. Maybe they're rethinking it now. We can only hope.
"Israel could’ve decided to fight it out or compromise for peace."
Fight it out, sure. Compromise for peace was never on the table, they tried that, but it requires an opponent open to compromise.
People aren’t statistics, but unless you have individualized information about specific people, you have no choice but to treat them on the basis of statistics.
No. This is not what you do. We like our facts individualized here in the non-collectivist parts of the world.
Your argument here lacks limits. 'Kill them all let God sort it out' uses the exact same logic train, just for something spicier than not letting people immigrate.
"We have a good track record, do we not? "
I dunno. You point out the numerator is small, but what's the denominator? In 100's of thousands, how many immigrants do we have from places with proportions of fairly militant Muslims as large as Gaza? I'm thinking e.g. Yemen.
I've got nothing against Palestinian immigrants - my high school American Government teacher was a Palestinian whose family mush have come over not too long after '47, and he was a great teacher.
But I think the security question merits more than blithe dismissal. I'm not sure how to address it - careful vetting, preference for families with children, I dunno. But it strikes me as a tough question and outright dismissal doesn't seem right.
You point out the numerator is small, but what’s the denominator?
Shouldn't it be all the immigrants we let in? Our vetting is not Gaza specific.
I am all for national security as a concern. But I don't like collective guilt as an impetus. See also the Muslim ban.
"Shouldn’t it be all the immigrants we let in?"
I don't think so. I think the set 'countries with high support of terrorism' (Yemen, Iran, Afghanistan) is distinguishable from countries without that support (Canada, Japan, Norway, Peru).
After WWII, we wanted proof that German immigrants hadn't been ardent Nazis; we didn't ask the same from British immigrants.
I don’t agree – the government is not the people.
We do have national quotas in immigration, which I do not love. But going from ought to is, we let folks in from Iran and those folks do fine. See also China and Russia. Refugees from Afghanistan are also a thing.
Risk analysis has a place in immigration. But America is real careful when it comes to risk based on national origin. That might change - there is some appetite for that. But I don't think it should. Because we see in our immigrant communities again and again that people are not their government.
After WWII, we wanted proof that German immigrants hadn’t been ardent Nazis; we didn’t ask the same from British immigrants. The fact that we let in a buncha Nazis is a sign national security was not our concern.
"It’s never come to pass."
America's character has never changed? Huh, that's interesting.
It's not changed because immigrants demographically forced it to, no.
This is an interesting question... though likely for a different, less hyperbolic topic. I don't think it's an easy "no," regardless.
I wonder if theres a problem in the universe Somin doesn’t think open borders (except maybe his own house) is the solution to.
OK, I’ll accept that maybe Paul Pelosi didn’t know his attacker, and that it was a Political act, not a lover’s quarrel, doesn’t that show the danger with just one incompetent nut case (his attacker, not Pelosi) at large, not hundreds of thousands of military aged terrorists? I see some A-rab flying a Paraglider in my neighborhood, he better be good at evasive maneuvers
Frank
Good news! He writes a lot about foot voting and rational ignorance too.
What was that voting support for Hamas, 52% or something?
Why the dickens do you want so many terrorism supporters in this country? And if they're too scared of Hamas to vote against them, why do you want so many political cowards in this country?
This is a Muslim problem. They won't accept refugees. They support Hamas and every other anti-Israel terrorist group. Why do we have to solve everybody else's problems?
I dunno, I'd have thought second amendmenters, who so worship at the altar of the principle of violent resistance that they are willing to accept the occasional school massacre, would have a lot in common with other people who engage in violent resistence.
We do not support terrorism and mass slaughter of innocents.
Progressives, on the other hand...
Make up your mind, then. You either support the principle of armed violent resistence or you don't. You're never going to violently resist without using terrorist tactics and being called terrorsits, or killing innocents.
Yeah, the Founding Fathers were totally onboard with rape, torture, cutting off babies' heads, etc., etc.! You bet!
You think the Revolution didn't feature at least two of those? You think any conflict of any sort didn't feature those two and lots of dead babies?
But I have been informed by commenters here that in the event of an uprising of some kind, the comabatants would emulate, say, the IRA, striking from the shadows and all that. An Enniskillen here, a Shankhill there...
Didn't see Founding Fathers butchering innocents in pursuit of the British.
Hell, Sherman was more gentle to the Confederacy than Hamas was to Israel. And Sherman had a far more justifiable reason (Confederacy started the war and they needed to be shown what war was really like)
Totes the same thing.
And shouldn't you make up your mind? Is it OK to own guns or is it wrong? Your morality seems very opportunistic at best.
Shouldn't the Confederacy be Hamas in that equation? They were fighting for slavery, that was pretty abominable.
I'm not opposed to people owning guns at all. But 2nd amendment extremists are extremists, and don't mind school shootings.
In terms of attacking civilians, not in that specific case. Sherman sought to make sure all of the Confederacy --- both leadership and civilians --- suffered for the war they initiated.
And he was still far less vicious than Hamas was to Israel.
Not sure any of that is an indication of how a putative 2nd Civil War full of 2nd amendment heroes would go.
damikesc - check out the CIA in the post-WW2 period.
Or what we did to the American Indians.
I love this country, and yet I don't need to whitewash it.
I'm all for terminating the CIA post haste. And criminally penalizing virtually anybody who worked for that operation.
And Indians got fucked. Just as they fucked other tribes before them. I'm not defending US treatment of Indians.
Feel free to give up your home to assuage your guilt. Or do not and admit you're a hypocrite on that topic.
Awesome you want to do some radical and dumb things to an organization that's not anything like it was in the 1960s.
You don't wash blood off you hands like that.
Weird you think I'm guilty. I'm not; I'm just open-eyed about our history.
What, you mean that back in the 60's it was mostly in the tent pissing out?
I'm not keeping track of all these piss analogies.
What is 'it' here?
The CIA. The chief difference between the 60's and today was that the CIA was mostly outward facing in the 60's, so if they got up to no good, at least it wasn't Americans on the receiving end.
The chief difference between the 60’s and today was that the CIA was mostly outward facing in the 60’s, so if they got up to no good, at least it wasn’t Americans on the receiving end.
The CIA is not operating in the US. Hasn't since Church Committee.
What evidence do you have otherwise?
"The CIA is not operating in the US. Hasn’t since Church Committee."
Maybe you should quit your day job. That was actually pretty funny.
You think that's a CIA op?
You're nutty.
Yee canna differentiate between self-defense and murdering?
Yah, typical statist.
You think states killing civilians in the name of 'self defence' is ok, and I’m the statist?
A state's citizens are murdered for literally no reason.
This is retribution. Justified retribution.
Limiting Gazans forevermore in myriad ways will be self-defense.
That's just another way of saying it's okay to kill civlians, including children, if you can claim the motive is right.
....only ones justifying murdering children are the Hamas apologists.
You just now justified murdering children in the name of retribution.
You called it "justified retribution" in fact. Just like, three comments up.
Your short-term memory is really short.
No. If only there were some place on the internet where one could look things up.
OK David Never-Potent,
how about all the erections they've had since then?
Oh sorry, didn't mean to bring up a sore subject,
how about all the ELECTIONS they've had since 2006
and the Ear-ronians vote their Mullah into Orifice, so did
the Germans with Hitler.
Seriously man, give it up, just get an 18" Dildo (Queenie can help you out) and go at it
Frank
And many of those who supported someone other than Hamas in that election supported someone just as extreme. For example the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine received a fair number of votes and Fatah which is only slightly less extreme than Hamas. It wasn't Hamas and every other party was a peace part. Most were as hateful as Hamas just different on how they expressed their hatred.
When you read blog posts from Ilya the Lesser, and it becomes clear why academia is completely disconnected from Americans.
Hamas savagely and brutally murdered ~3 dozen Americans. Hamas currently hold ~2 dozen American hostages. Hamas enjoys wide support throughout Gazan society (and Judea, Samaria).
No need to bring a people steeped in Judeocide for their entire lives to America. The average Gazan on the street is perfectly fine with killing every Jew alive. That is what they were taught in their schools and mosques. We don’t need that in America.
There is a reason Somin is Ilya the Lesser. You just read it with this post advocating taking in Judeocidal Gazans. Dumb as shit.
In other words, all muslims look alike...
Nuke Gaza!
more like smell
"It is true that some significant percentage of adult Gazans do support Hamas, its awful ideology, and its terrorism. But many others do not. A July 2023 poll conducted by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy found that 62% of Gaza Palestinians wanted to maintain a ceasefire with Israel, 50% agreed that "Hamas should stop calling for Israel's destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders." A large majority also said they preferred Palestinian Authority rule to Hamas."
100% of the Terrorist Murderers on 10-7 didn't agree.
David, we are both correct here. Gazans have been instilled (actively and passively) with the idea that Judeocide is perfectly acceptable, in their schools and mosques, and many Gazan homes (only half, going by your cite - MEMRI has other data). That happened. Gazan society has been marinated and steeped in this belief. That is simply acknowledging reality.
The notion that Judeocide is perfectly acceptable is not compatible with America's values, in any universe.
Are you advocating taking in Gazan civilians right now?
You're condemning everyone in Gaza based on a lot of assumptions. Assumptions that aren't particularly born out by the polls that DMN shares.
This generalization echoes statements made about blacks by David Duke.
This is fact: Gazans have been instilled (actively and passively) with the idea that Judeocide is perfectly acceptable, in their schools and mosques, and many Gazan homes This is not a moral judgment. It is what happened. Are you denying that?
So...What to do with a people marinated in that belief? This is the biggest post-war question, to me. I do know that Judeocide (and support of it) is incompatible with American civic values in any universe.
Don't bring them here. Not now, and maybe not ever.
First and foremost, Hamas must be physically obliterated within Gaza (and Judea, Samaria). That is the primary thing that needs to happen, and the sooner that happens, the better. It is an existential fight for Israel.
Hateful Jew states that all of his perceived enemies are hateful anti-Semites.
You sound a lot like the people you blindly condemn. Perhaps you should consider whether you're just as bigoted and wrong as they are.
Jason, are you arguing that we should take in Gazan civilians right now?
If you are making that case, can you address how Judeocide is compatible with American civic values? Because a significant proportion of Gazan civilians affirmatively have that belief = Judeocide is perfectly acceptable. That is reality and it is an accurate reflection of Gazan society.
(And BTW, not an insignificant number of palestinians in Judea and Samaria hold similar views on the acceptability of Judeocide. They were handing out candies to children in Jenin and elsewhere on October 7th and 8th to celebrate the Simchat Torah pogrom.)
Sure we could take some Palestinian refugees in.
I really don't care about your evidence-free anecdotal assertions, because unlike you, I am not going to apply them to the entire population.
You keep waving your hands around with sweeping, denigrating stereotypes. While that is evidence, it is only evidence of your own bigotry. Bigotry that was generally contradicted by David's poll above.
Good luck with your hateful tribalism.
It is Ok if you wish to deny what is reality, Jason. But be clear: You are denying reality.
Let's assume you're right that DN's right and you're also right. That means Gazans are being "marinated in Judeocide" but it's not particularly effective. I think you're the one denying reality.
What you might be saying is that you don't think Gazan refugees would be sufficiently supportive of Israel. But that's obviously not a decent reason to ban people from this country.
Reality = Simchat Torah pogrom
What I am saying is that Judeocide is not compatible with American civic values, and we have a situation where an entire society (Gaza) is marinated and stewed in the belief that Judeocide is acceptable. They do not come here now, and maybe not ever.
You don't care that the marinating and stewing doesn't seem to work. That's denying reality.
Much opinion, zero evidence.
Hateful bigot gonna stereotype and hate.
You make a universal statement. My default is that's an exaggeration without more proof.
But even if it is true, your argument is 'once you hear it in school, you are forever corrupted.' That's giving bigotry a lot more credit than it deserves. We have violent bigots in America, but the number's been going down each generation.
I'm all for taking out Hamas, but you over and over look like you want to go further. It's not a good look.
If you want to argue it is not reality; feel free Sarcastr0. You have not. And cannot.
Disengagement is not a sign you're arguing from a place where facts matter.
What crap! I've worked in Gaza and have never hid that I am Jewish. I never had a problem. I held a few talks at Gaza University to explain Judaism and Zionism.
You also seem to be a bit of a brain-dead dunce, so I can see why they feted you so.
Quote the rest David
"Nevertheless, there is widespread popular appeal for competing armed Palestinian factions, including those involved in the attack. Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though Gazans who express this opinion of Hamas are fewer than the number of Gazans who have a positive view of Fatah (64%).
But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents. "
They think Hamas doesn't go far enough!
I was pretty pissed after 9-11.
I didn't just embrace is as the right way to be, and followed it to collective guilt as though that was righteous.
Now do 1/6 protesters...
Where do you see collective guilt there? They are being charged as individuals for doing crimes, each based on individualized and specific facts.
Those that were just there and didn't do crimes, are just back home and not charged with anything.
It's a great example of how collective guilt is not something we do, actually.
They charged people who walked in, walked around a bit and left.
What did they charge them with, Bob?
Becha it was individualized to their activities!
Parading and trespass was a popular one. Even for the ones waved in by police.
Not seeing collective guilt.
Not shocked you don't. Self-reflection seems a weak point for ya.
Or, you're completely wrong and dumb and can't actually back up your tossed off J6 is collective guilt brain fart.
Trespass.
Putin uses "individualized" charges for his political opponents too!
LOL you think Putin charges his opponents with stuff. He has other ways, Bob.
"By Steve Rosenberg and Kathryn Armstrong
BBC News, Moscow and London
Opposition activist Vladimir Kara-Murza has been sentenced to 25 years in jail in Russia for charges linked to his criticism of the war in Ukraine."
"Updated 9:37 AM EDT, September 4, 2023
MOSCOW (AP) — Authorities in Russia arrested a mathematician on terrorism charges Monday after he had just completed a prison sentence for hooliganism, the latest step in a years-long Kremlin crackdown on political opponents. "
"Russia arrests lawyers for imprisoned opposition leader Navalny
By Francesca Ebel
October 13, 2023 at 10:06 a.m. EDT"
Good point - Putin charges people with stuff...when he doesn't have them killed.
This somehow proves January 06 people shouldn't have been charged.
It's more that Putin "charges" people with stuff that would be unconstitutionally vague here, and then they get sham trials that we also don't do. "Hooliganism." Might as well be "disagreeableness."
It's certainly disconnected from people who prefer superstition to reason, bigotry to inclusiveness, backwardness to progress, dogma to science, insularity to modernity, and the like.
Those folks still have backwater religious schools -- plenty of flavors -- to provide the ignorance, fairy tales, backwardness, and intolerance some people crave.
I agree, although for completeness there is a second reason why people might be reluctant to accept Palestinian refugees: Israel will never let them return. The right of return is pretty much the only topic where Israel has never budged in decades of (abortive) peace negotiations. Palestinians who leave Gaza will assume that they'll never be able to return, and countries that accept Palestinian refugees will assume that those refugees are there to stay.
I don't think it's right to make individual Palestinians suffer because you don't want to facilitate Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestine, but it is a consideration that some policy makers have.
Jordanians (let's be real about who the "Palestinians" are) CHOSE to leave. Israel asked them to stay in 1948 and they left because the other Arab states told them to.
They picked a loser.
Then Israel saw virtually all of the Jews in every other country expelled from their countries.
Irony --- Israel is condemned for what they did not do but ALL of their neighbors did do.
I find it funny the same people demanding we eternally support Ukraine ALSO demand Israel stand down any time terrorists slaughter them.
Israel asked them to stay in 1948
If you believe that, I have a bridge you might like to buy.
I find it funny the same people demanding we eternally support Ukraine ALSO demand Israel stand down any time terrorists slaughter them.
Do you see those people in the room with you now?
It is what happened. Israel asked them to stay. Arab states told them to leave and once they wiped out the Jews, they could return.
They, again, picked a loser. C'est la vie.
Gun absolutists, anti-abortion absolutists, xenophobes, religious kooks, and the like should hold that thought as the modern American culture war -- settled, but not quite over -- continues to develop.
Would have been a great "Deleted Scene" from "Munich"
Ra-Shit-a Hijab gets a "Special Edition Soul-man-iani" Vibrator constructed by a Belgian Jewish Toymaker, Ka-Boom!!!!!!
No threat, I've got my doubts Hi-jab even has a V-Jay-Jay, and I wouldn't inflict that fate on any mechanical device.
No, the only safe space for Gazans is Gaza. Convert the wadi that separates South Gaza from the North into a DMZ. Let anyone who wants to leave or escape Hamas flee to the South. Restore water and power only there. Meanwhile, scour the North of Hamas. Once the North is secure, slowly transfer everyone in the South back North after extensive vetting. No doubt there will be additional Hamas who have infiltrated the South, so a military posture will still be needed during the resettlement. Once all is secure, turn it over to the PA.
This is going to take a decade or more. Eradicating Hamas will level the North. It will be like post-WWII Europe.
It's a friggin crime Chess isn't a required subject in School. OK, Genius, I'm sure the Ham-Ass Terrorists will stay where you want them to, and your "Extensive Vetting"? is that the same kind Moe-hammad Atta went through in 2000? Wasn't like we didn't know the A-rabs were interested in blowing up the World Trade Center,
"Turn it over to the PA" ??? Why not just Ear-Ron's Surpreme Revolutionary Council??
As a Chess Player, I prefer the Roosh-un way, like they did with East Prussia.
East where? that's right, there ain't any East Prussia anymore, it's divided between the Kaliningrad Oblast and Poland, and there ain't any Prussians there either.
Frank
I don't normally respond to people who sound like they haven't taken their meds, but in this case you do raise a couple of points to be clarified.
I’m sure the Ham-Ass Terrorists will stay where you want them to....
Yes, they will, because Egypt has closed the border to the South, Israel has closed it North and West, and to the East is the Mediterranean Sea. No doubt some will try to escape. For that, you have 30,000 ground troops, air, land, and sea superiority, and the assistance of the US Navy.
and your “Extensive Vetting”? is that the same kind Moe-hammad Atta went through in 2000? Wasn’t like we didn’t know the A-rabs were interested in blowing up the World Trade Center..
The purpose of the vetting is to find Hamas and kill them. Doing it systematically is Israel's best chance at doing that successfully.
“Turn it over to the PA” ??? Why not just Ear-Ron’s Surpreme Revolutionary Council??
The PA is a viable political administration that Israel can work with. Israel does not want to occupy Gaza forever. They already tried that and gave it up. They need to restore it as a permanent Palestinian state.
I was nodding along until here = The PA is a viable political administration that Israel can work with. Israel does not want to occupy Gaza forever. They already tried that and gave it up. They need to restore it as a permanent Palestinian state.
Not seeing with Mahamoud Abbas (PA). Mansour Abbas (Ra'am) is a different story, though. We will see.
Post war Gaza will not be the same as prewar Gaza. That is all I can say for certain.
Extensive vetting. How the hell do you DO this "extensive vetting"? It's easy to SAY, "we'll extensively vet them", but how exactly do you do it? Going through government records, where the government in question is a literal terrorist organization? Drug assisted interrogation? Just take their word?
Come on, I want to know how this 'extensive vetting' is supposed to work. Because Ilya relies on it, too.
Already answered above, but to repeat, the purpose of the vetting isn’t to find the good guys, it’s to find the bad ones. By keeping Gazans in-country, Israel will have its only chance at doing this systematically and thoroughly. If Gazans are allowed to emigrate to other countries, Israel loses its control of the process.
As to the specifics of that process, yes, all the techniques you mentioned will no doubt be used — along with exit interviews and testimonies from anti-Hamas Gazans.
Please explain why no Arab or Muslim country will take in ANY Palestinian "refugees"?
They don’t take them in for the same reasons Israel doesn’t: they are infused with a large number of Hamas death cult members. And that’s an excellent reason for the US not to take them in, either — or any country, for that matter.
That is why I believe Israel must keep Gazans in-country. We have all our bad eggs in one basket. This is Israel's chance to sort them out.
Easier than you condemning the fool who brought this mess on, right ?
Parkinsonian Joe's got 6 months max, he's already got the Celestial Condemnation.
Biden has six months.
Trump is going to get six to ten.
Happy, clingers?
Watch it, Sandusky!
I think the Spirochete holding your remaining Brain Cells "Klinging" together is not umm, "Klinging" very well
As much as I'd like 6-10 more years of "45" he'll only get the usual 4.
My 6 month Parkinsonian Joe estimate is Optimistic.
And watta you care anyway?, your earliest possible release date is 2041
Frank
No Arab or Muslim state will help the Zionist state to complete the genocide, which the Zionist movement planned since 1881.
International law is pellucid. Until Palestinians return to their homes, property, villages, and country, the genocide will not have ended, which started with the Nakba in Dec 1947.
I seem to be the only forum participant, who actually speaks Hebrew and who has actually worked in Israel, in Gaza, and in the West Bank. The vast majority of Zionist colonial settlers are at least as racist and genocidal as the Nazis were during the pre-Holocaust phase of German Nazi regime. The Zionist mentality verges on psychosis as the Haaretz article below indicates.
Maisa Abd Elhadi was referring to the Berlin Wall as the comments on this article (excerpted) from Haaretz point out. She was advocating tearing down artificial barriers between pople. Her co-star Ofer Schechter is a moron.
Israel left Gaza 17 years ago. Since then they have been supplying it with electricity and water, I believe for free. They were allowing a limited number of Gazans to work in Israel, and planning on increasing that number in the immediate future. They were actively pursuing peaceful relations with other Arab nations.
If the proposition is that Israel was trying to eliminate Gazans, they were doing a very poor job of it. To an outsider such as myself, it appears that any Gazans who worked with the Israelis peacefully were flourishing, not dying.
People do keep throwing around terms such as “the genocide”, but genocide is as genocide does. No doubt there are some Israelis whose hearts are racist to the core, but all we on the outside have to go on are their actions. And their actions have been peaceful with regards to Gazans. Israel is the one who has been provoked.
You seem to be committed to the view that the Israelis expelled Arabs in 1947 and thereafter. Since this is fiction, why should anyone credit your opinions?
"No Arab or Muslim state will help the Zionist state to complete the genocide, which the Zionist movement planned since 1881."
First genocide in history where the "victim" has seen its population increase the entire time.
There are probably more native Americans today than there were in the colonial period or in 1978 when the ICWA made official state policy of genocide of native Americans unlawful.
Since 1881 Zionists planned Palestinian genocide
Zionism is an ideology of genocide. Specialists call Zionism an ideology of replacement genocide.
Nazi replacement genocide was called Germanization.
Zionist replacement genocide is called Judaization.
Replacement genocide does not require mass murder (or even any murder), but both Nazis and also Zionists have committed a tremendous amount of murder in order to attain goals of genocide.
OK, Adolf.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Robert_F._Kennedy
Same bigotry as the Jews killed Jesus.
Fuck you.
Oddly enough it’s Jodie Foster and all women who bear the guilt for the go at Reagan. Because it’s never, y’know.
If Ilya's making the argument that Palestinian terrorism in the US isn't a concern, leaving out the assassination of RFK by Palestinians seems problematic.
If facts like these annoy you, perhaps you're in the wrong field.
"Same bigotry as the Jews killed Jesus. "
Are you suggesting Sirhan didn't shoot RFK? Big if true!
Are you saying Jesus wasn’t crucified?
By the Romans, yes, of course.
Please ignore what it says in the Bible, eh?
Huh? Both the Bible and secular history agree he was crucified by the Romans. The locals didn't have the authority to crucify anyone, at most they could refer them to the Romans to have them do it.
So the Italians are to blame for Jesus, fair enough.
The Bible? What about the Brothers Grimm? Mother Goose?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting
What many don't see is that letting Palestinians out would put Hamas in a difficult situation. Their human shields would be gone and Israel could attack with far less public opposition. I doubt that Hamas would allow this and that would force them to admit that they are truly terrorist. Give Gaza Palestinians 6 month visas. Get Israel assurance that they can return in 6 months. Give the Israels clear ground to eliminate Hamas for 6 months. Not without problems but more for Hamas that Israel.
No one in the ME wants them and we certainly don't need them.
Need is not Prof. Somin's point.
Not that you read the OP.
Why do you keep unmuting me?
"Need" is always Somin's point as in an obligation.
At this point it's for the spectacle of what a little man you are.
As usual a fail on your part.
Sad, lonely old man, defeated by life.
Yes, and that is precisely the problem with Prof. Somin's position. He doesn't care a bit about the welfare of his own country, only about what we could be doing for others.
Well, that's great if you're running your own life, but it's not the basis on which governments are supposed to operate. They are not charities run for the benefit of foreigners, they are supposed to be advancing the welfare of their own citizens.
You haven't established anything about the welfare of the US, even if you claim that's your requirement.
Collective is not going to help America. This is a lesson we have had to learn over and over.
He cares more for the soul of the US than you do, that's for sure.
The country/government doesn't have a soul. Individuals do. And I don't think Somin's "Let's you and him do charity for non-Americans" obsession does anything for anybody's soul.
America: soulless. You heard it from Brett. And he means to keep it that way!
He's in no position to do anything about it, except whine a lot.
The culture war's winners call the shots in modern, improving America.
Sounds like a Mariel Boatlift scenario. "Innocent" "Palestinians" wouldn't include any Islamic terrorists (essentially every faithful Muslim) among the Arab population that has already benighted the civilized world and would increase its diaspora if "refugees" were permitted to move out of Gaza into other countries. Why do you suppose the rulers of other nearby countries don't want any of these people?
Your assumption here is that every Muslem is a terrorist and this basically negates any solution.
No, the assumption here is that, just like Cuba largely controlled who left in the Mariel Boatlift, Hamas would have great control over who left as refugees.
And that's why America became Communist - we let in too many Cubans!
Take a minute and reread Yogis_dad response. You will see that he is assuming all Moslems are terrorist and that precludes going any farther.
Not sure I can see Hamas setting up border check-points under current conditions.
So the Allies should have let Germans emigrate in 1944 and 1945, because it would weaken the Wehrmacht? How does Ilya get so much so wrong?
We started letting Germans into America in 1945, and made formal provisions to do so in 1948.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displaced_Persons_Act
And how many Germans did America grant entry prior to VE Day? Where did you get your "education?"
Did all the Germans magically deNazify after VE day?
Where did you learn about humans?
"Did all the Germans magically deNazify after VE day?"
I don't think it was magic. The Nazis were careful record keepers. My sense is that you could, and we/the new German gov't did go through those records carefully and people who had shown much enthusiasm for Nazism were kept out of positions of responsibility and kept from immigrating.
Do we have similar records for Gaza? If not I'm not sure the situations are comparable.
(there may have been some exceptions, von Braun perhaps, but I think those are the exception that proves the rule)
First, we let in tons of actual Nazis if they were technically proficient.
But the point is that Germans even having shortly lived in Nazi Germany were not some high risk terroristic population, and we did not treat them as such.
The documentation of Nazi officers was not used for security, it was about justice.
"First, we let in tons of actual Nazis if they were technically proficient."
Indeed, I mentioned von Braun et al. But I think that number is in the low thousands.
We didn't let in run of the mill people who were other than pretty casual Nazis. I recall a steady stream of deporting, say, people who had lied about their membership in the SS until quite recently. The notion that we just generally let Germans immigrate post WWII without very strict vetting - in an situation where you could do that because of careful record keeping - seems quite off to me.
Is anyone arguing no vetting? Yogis_dad is talking about a total ban, not vetting.
Pretty sure I'm not Yogis_dad.
So, what is your proposal for sufficient vetting? I'm all ears for constructive suggestions.
Every one with documented Ham-Ass ties is summarily executed. Those without documented Ham-Ass ties are summarily executed as saboteurs.
If you're going to reset the thesis in the thread, I need to know what it is.
Because I'm not arguing anything about no vetting. Heck, I'm not convinced by Prof. Somin's argument in the OP.
I'm was pointing out a bad argument and you picked it up.
"tons"
1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians were taken from the former Nazi Germany to the U.S. for government employment. wikipedia
Not all were Nazis either. There was a large national security interest in doing this, "vetting" was very intense, Germans kept lots of records.
Impossible to vet all the Arabs to this level.
Actual Nazis, Bob. Not just 'taken from former Nazi Germany.'
Certainly enough to explode Yogis_dad's argument.
Some were Nazis, some not. We had actual Reds in our programs too.
Seems like you agree Yogis_dad's argument is pretty bad.
"Seems like you agree Yogis_dad’s argument is pretty bad."
Seems like you can't read.
Explain to me how you can note that we accepted Nazis and Commies into our country, and yet Yogi has a shred of correctness in his 'So the Allies should have let Germans emigrate in 1944 and 1945' comment.
"1944 and 1945’"
No German came to the US in 1944 unless they were a POW.
They did not come in 1945 either until the war ended and only those few we selected. No baker from Hamburg nor farmer from Bavaria was settling in the US.
Neither did we let in Germans expelled from Silesia etc. after the war.
Do you think the risk was suddenly different after VE day?
"risk was suddenly different after VE day?"
Yeah, kinda, we were not at war anymore. Germany had surrendered, a wrecked country. These people were happy we had them and not the Soviets.
Plus there was no mass immigration, it was only a handful of people we wanted and there were closely watched.
Now do St. FDR's treatments of the "Japs".
Are you arguing that was a good thing?
You know, for the risk mitigation just people are arguing about Palestinians.
Hiroshima/Nagasaki? Abso-tu-fucking-lutely (I know it was Hairy Truman who finally dropped the Bomb(s) but wouldn't have had the Nuke-ular Option if it hadn't been for FDR.
And "interring" the Japs temporarily was a Humanitarian measure, sure beat the Permanent Interment the general population would have given them,
Frank
Yeah, all after the war = letting in Germans. Right now, there is a war going on. No need to move Gazans anywhere outside their borders unless it is into Egypt. The Sinai looks open.
You know who kept Germans from leaving *during* WW2?
Germany.
Now tell us about all of the countries that blocked those Jews who could get out from entering.
You beat me to it. FDR was among them = Now tell us about all of the countries that blocked those Jews who could get out from entering.
Everyone, even us.
Yeah, that sucked.
What's the point?
The point: Your analogy about letting in Germans was inapt.
It wasn't my analogy, chief.
"So the Allies should have let Germans emigrate in 1944 and 1945, because it would weaken the Wehrmacht? How does Ilya get so much so wrong?"
My whole point is that is inapt.
Though also, us being anitsemetic doesn't say a lot about this other thing we did
To be as gentle as possible, Ilya, you are a fucking moron on this topic.
re: "...on this topic..."
His posts remind me of "Slate pitches."
Zionist colonial settlers are leaving stolen Palestine in droves. It's a good thing.
Without continuous and psychotic indoctrination, Jews don't want their own country. Jewish communities have for a millennium provided commercial financial services on a contract basis to a state or to a state-like entity. Zionism is completely insane. The State of Israel managed to bootstrap the state in 1949 because for at least 4 years, the Zionist colonial settlers had been gathering intelligence on Palestinian agriculture and on Palestinian businesses in the cities. Once Palestinians were kicked out, the Zionist movement took over the agriculture and businesses in a sort of hijacking. This hijacking became "making the desert bloom" in Zionist PR.
To tell the truth, Zionist agriculture has always been crappy and did not become halfway decent until after 1967 when Zionists hired Palestinians to farm the land that had been stolen from Palestinians. The Palestinian hospitality industry -- as besieged as it is -- is superior to the Zionist hospitality industry -- not just my biased opinion.
Did Gazans have you give talks to them because you're as brain-dead illiterate as they are?
No one, not even their Muslim brothers, wants these refugees anywhere near their territory, mainly because they're pathological ingrates who've bitten ever hand that has ever fed them.
True
Both Egypt and Jordan blocked their escape from the region during and shortly after the 1948 war.
And given that Hamas is blocking escape now, not sure how Ilya's fucking idiotic idea would work.
Hamas has literally zero interest in reducing civilian casualties. The more the better for them.
"Ilyas's Fucking Idiotic Idea"??
I like that, we can call it "IFII"
Will save alot of typing
Oh boy I already saw this coming. Arab countries can and should take them, we agree on that much. But which western nations should take them? Be specific - because both the US and the EU are overwhelmed by a record number of asylum seekers and there is NOWHERE TO PUT THEM.
How about countries that take nearly zero? China, Japan, South Korea? Prof Somin never mentions them, maybe hoping we forget they exist.
Also, need I remind the good Prof that Lebanon opened its doors to Palestinian refugees, and that led to a civil war starting in 1975, that lasted for 15 years??
Ask Denmark what became of the Palestinian refugees they imported.
"The shocking revelation about Palestinians and crime in Denmark: the vast majority have been convicted of crimes"
Do you have a source for that that isn't a bunch of conservative Texans?
(And no, Visegrad24 doesn't count, because it's a well-known disinformation channel.)
If your source isn’t a leftist propaganda source it "doesn’t count ".
Did the Conservative Texans claim Israel bombed the Terrorist Hospital? The NY Times did ("All the Shit that Fits")
It looks like the source is the Danish Ministry of Immigration and Integration.
Is it? Or is that what Visegrad24 is claiming? Because according to M L no crimes have ever been committed by refugees in Denmark.
Ilya supports unrestricted immigration, news at 11. I do have to admire the way he can acknowledge that Hamas hides among civilians and doesn't wear uniforms or other identifiers but insists that civilians should be allowed to freely leave. How exactly are you supposed to be certain that you're only allowing civilians? I would love for all innocent civilians, particularly the children, to be immediately removed from all danger. But you can't do that without putting innocent civilians in other areas into danger.
When your new neighbor Ahmed cranks up his Ultralight and takes off for the nearest Sin O’ Gogue, you’ll know.
Making Americans' lives worse is always called "moral" by people who don't value Americans' quality of life.
HELL NO
The sheer cold-sweat panic amongst the warmongers at the very idea, no matter how remote, that the US might end up taking some of the responsibility for the war they're mongering is bizarre.
I am willing to support Israel as a democracy and generally decent country which is forced to do ugly things because of the people who attack it.
My support stops far short of taking in people hostile to this country.
Before 9/11 I thought that something like this was a viable solution. After the street parties both in the West Bank and in New Jersey because Americans had died I became unwilling to take in additional Palestinians, and I'm still angry we didn't send back the non-citizen residents who celebrated the deaths of American while in America.
The Palestinians have not become less anti-American.
That's putting aside the ugly legacy of the way the Palestinians have behaved as refugees in Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon. Which is a large part of why their neighbors - far closer and more culturally compatible than we are - don't want the Palestinians either.
Iran instigated this. If the residents of Gaza go anywhere it should be there.
"Iran instigated this. If the residents of Gaza go anywhere it should be there."
Palestinians are neither citizens of Iran, nor likely would they feel welcome there.
Palestinians are, inconveniently for Israel, citizens of Israel. Because when Israel was wished into existence by the UN in 1948, everybody there had to be a citizen of some country.
So residents of Gaza are internally displaced peoples, residents of Israel, and citizens of Israel.
Let Israel deal with this problem first.
And if it appears a genocide is happening, then it is time for the UN to move to protect a vulnerable population.
"citizens of Israel."
Nope. Never was sovereign in Gaza. Occupied it between 1967 and 2005 [ish]. If anything they are Egyptian because Egypt claimed it afte the Mandate ended until they "renounced" it post 1967.
No, absolutely not. These people support Hamas, never revoled against them, want to murder all the Jews, wipe them off the planet. We don't want them here.
Non-Hamas Arabs came in afterwards and looted.
Offer $10000 to any other country to let them settle there.
This is just like the Tories in the UK trying to spend £169,000 per refugee to send them to Rwanda. That's some seriously expensive racism.
Inflation. The US just spent $1.25 billion per hostage from Iran.
20 Arab countries, 50 total Muslim majority countries.
Divide them up and send some to each. Its the only way to achieve peace.
100,000 Armenians were just forced out in a week, it wasn't Jews doing it so hardly anyone noticed.
100,000 Armenians were just forced out in a week, (...) hardly anyone noticed.
The first sensible thing you've said in ages. That was a war crime, and so would be the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
War crime! War crime! War crime!
You are like a parrot.
You guys keep proposing that Israel commit war crimes, I keep explaining that the things you're proposing are war crimes. You're right, we're not making a lot of progress in agreeing that laws matter. Which is odd, for a legal blog.
But for the avoidance of doubt, here is the Rome Statute:
"laws matter"
International "law" is a mirage, words on paper only.
Tell that to the Founding Fathers, who wrote into the US constitution that " Treaties made (...) shall be the supreme Law of the Land". So much for words on paper...
(Unless you think all law is words on paper, which I guess is at least technically true.)
International “law” remains what the US is willing to enforce and only binds those we decide to enforce it upon.
You only think things are only noticed if people are having stupid arguments about it? Who's saying forcing Armenians out is a good and necessary thing, othet than Azerbaijan, but no, we won't take them?
Some useful academic analysis of Egypt's position:
https://verfassungsblog.de/trapped-in-gaza/
You are arguing Egypt obeys human rights conventions?
If you can't read, maybe you should try something else to alleviate your boredom.
" . . . so most ordinary Gazans aren't responsible for Hamas."
I guess your google is broken?
"The result was a victory for Hamas, contesting under the list name of Change and Reform, which received 44.45% of the vote and won 74 of the 132 seats, whilst the ruling Fatah received 41.43% of the vote and won 45 seats."
How many Japanese refugees were admitted to the U.S. by January 1, 1942?
It was only 3 weeks after Pearl Harbor. I think most Amurican's opinions on the Japs was "Slanted" by the recent attack.
Opening doors to Gaza refugees . . . sure.
Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey, and a number of other countries are appropriately situated to do so.
Hell, in the case of Turkey, Erdogan specifically denied Hamas was a terror group. Send all the Gazans there. Turkey has a welcome mat out. It is a medium length flight Cairo to Istanbul (comparable to flying EWR to IAH).
Do. Not. Let. Them. In. They are a profound security threat. If you do, make them immediately liable for immediate deportation for as minor a crime as jaywalking.
Collective guilt again.
What was their track record in Jordan and Lebanon?
'their track record.' Still collective guilt. Good lord.
Who was it that started the civil war in Lebanon, again?
Undifferentiated Muslims?
The Egyptians are smart enough to not take them, because they don't want Hamas Egypt.
We don't want Hamas USA.
Why Somin isn't concerned about that is odd.
Yeah, we should take our moral cues from the Egyptians.
What were these people's track record in Lebanon and Jordan?
Still collective guilt.
More like common sense, which apparently isn't that common
Ijya, dahells wrong with you? Your ivory tower libertarianism is becoming quasi-religious in its zealotry. You are acting like a limousine liberal.
The conservative attempts at gatekeeping of Prof. Somin's libertarian credentials remains amusing.
Y'all aren't libertarians. You don't even have a philosophy these days. Just reactionary 'liberal = bad = liberal.'
Part of why you got this Chaos House problem. When there are no real principles beyond posturing, power struggles have nothing to compromise over.
The record demonstrates that if there is anything the faux libertarian bigots who constitute this blog's core and target audience can't stand, it is some genuinely libertarian content.
Which is more remarkable -- that Prof. Somin still associates with this blog, or that Prof. Volokh hasn't kicked him out yet?
When you let Jerry Sandusky in it sort of lowers the bar.
Not sure why open-air prison is in scare quotes.
A modest proposal to meet Ilya half way, we take in a couple hundred thousand Palestinians but they are all to beimmigrates to sanctuary cities like NYC, LA or MV. It's a win-win.
Win-win is when the liberal-libertarian mainstream wins the culture war and establishes its preferences as law of the land, then starts stomping on things conservatives care about (but liberals don't care about, such as hunting on public land) just for sport. Win and win.
Just what nationality are the people of Gaze? Citizens of Israel it would seem.
So if Israel is internally displacing Israelis, then perhaps Israel is the country which should first and foremost be dealing with the problem of displaced peoples.
Israel also owes its citizens of Palestinian origin the same protections as the Jewish citizens.
Why on earth does it “seem” like that to you? Gaza is not part of Israel. Gaza has never been part of Israel. Gazans are not citizens of Israel. They don’t want to be citizens of Israel. (They don’t even recognize the existence of Israel!)
It does, and it does. But that doesn't include residents of places that aren't actually part of Israel.
Gaza is occupied by Israel. (Yes, Israel denies it, but nobody buys that.)
I think that means Israel owes some minimal duty of care to the Gazans.
I think anyone familiar with the English language buys that. Israel is blockading Gaza. Blockading and occupying are different words with different meanings.
https://books.google.com/books?id=hYiIWVlpFzEC&pg=PA429#v=onepage&q&f=false
What , exactly, is preventing the Palestinians from creating their own population registry or issuing IDs?
Israel wouldn't honor them, obviously.
So what? Israeli passports are not honored in about 30 countries worldwide, that doesn’t seem to impact Israel’s status as a sovereign, non-occupied country.
Israel's the only place they can even go.
Israel has declared a siege of Gaza -- quite justifiably under the laws of war.
After the Second World War, a war crimes tribunal acquitted von Leeb after he had (more or less) refused to let Soviet civilians out of Leningrad.
Walzer analyzes this and says that international customs should change so that besieging powers have to let civilians out. Probably the laws of war now provide for this.
So, shouldn't Israel and maybe Egypt let the people of Gaza out?
Once that principle has been established, we can spend a lot of time arguing about where the Gazans should go, but the fact is, they should be able to leave.
Most people are free to go wherever they wish, so long as the receiving team will have them.
One problem for the Gazans is that they are 'home', and that their country, more-or-less, is Israel.
And it is Israel which is operating the squeeze play on the Gazans. That does seem to be their final solution, even if they don't use those exact words.
What do you think VC would say if Israel killed all the Gazans in the name of eradicating Hamas? Would they stick with the “war is hell” narrative? It was “us or them”?
(Some VC'ers like Gozer and XY have already stated a desire to genocide the Gazans, so I suppose we need to narrow it down a bit. What do you think DB would say? Or DN? The Davids.)
What do you think the US would have done if Japan had not surrendered after the 2nd atomic bombing?
Given Japanese civilians an opportunity to flee, at the bare minimum.
You people never learn, do you?
Like James Carville said during Clinton's 1992 campaign 'It's the economy stupid, we should by now realize it's Islam s___. No other modern religion's basic rules include join or die.
"We are all Hamas now..."
Why should we trust anything Ilya Somin has to say about what's best for the national interest of the United States?
Is he asking you to "trust" him? No, he's expressing an opinion, backing it up with argument and evidence. Feel free to be persuaded, or to agree or disagree. Of course, it might be more useful to the rest of us if you were to explain why you feel the way you do.
In any case, I found it curious that Prof. Somin did not mention another reason why the Gazans were being prevented from leaving Gaza: the maritime blockade. A blockade which is enforced entirely by Israel.
However, I agree, the world should accept Gazan refugees from the war, just as the would accepts refugees from other wars. There is nothing unique about Gazan refugees which justifies different treatment. Moreover, most countries have signed international agreements and conventions which they must live up to--or resile from.