Oct. 30 Talk at UCLA by Jesse Singal, "Toward a Saner, More Humane Discussion of the Youth Gender Medicine Debate"

It's hosted by the UCLA "campus community" of Heterodox Academy; here's the blurb:

Monday, October 30th, 5:00 – 6:30 pm

School of Law, Room 1357

The use of puberty blockers, gender-affirming sex hormones, and (more rarely) surgery to address gender dysphoria in minors has become the focus of intense controversy in recent years. Citing inadequate knowledge about the efficacy and long-term health effects of such medical interventions, several European countries have adopted a more cautious stance towards such treatments, without banning them. Meanwhile, several US states have enacted draconian restrictions on gender-affirming care, which, alongside the sometimes dehumanizing language deployed against trans and gender nonconforming people, has only further polarized the public discussion of youth gender medicine.

In this highly charged context, where space for civil discussion of a complex and fraught issue may seem to be shrinking, the UCLA chapter of Heterodox Academy has invited Jesse Singal to campus to speak on the subject. Singal's extensive reporting on youth gender medicine, while not shying away from controversy, has shown that it is possible to address a heatedly contested public issue in a nuanced manner that recognizes the complexities of the issue and respects the diversity of perspectives affected by it. His talk will cover the basics of the research into youth gender medicine, the heated debate going on among gender clinicians themselves, and prior examples of the politicization of scientific debates that have had dire consequences for vulnerable people.

Jesse Singal is the author of the 2021 book The Quick Fix: Why Fad Psychology Can't Cure Our Social Ills as well as the cohost of the podcast Blocked and Reported and the author of the newsletter Singal-Minded. His 2018 cover story in The Atlantic was one of the first major American journalistic accounts of the debate over the affirmative approach to youth gender transition and medicine.

If you plan to attend, please RSVP to [e-mail] to guarantee a seat and reserve food. Seats will be held for registered participants until 4:55 pm.

I much wish I could be there, but I'll be in Massachusetts for an Oct. 31 lunchtime talk at Bridgewater State University. If you're in L.A., though, check it out; I expect Singal to be a very engaging and knowledgeable speaker, at least judging by his & Katie Herzog's  excellent Blocked and Reported podcast (I'm a paying subscriber).

Comments

[The Margrave of Azilia]

[this comment has been surgically removed]

[Brett Bellmore]

"alongside the sometimes dehumanizing language deployed against trans and gender nonconforming people"

An example, please. I've noticed a distinct tendency to treat any criticism as "dehumanizing".

[Scooter]

Apparently, posting a sign that states, accurately, that a male joining a sorority is still a male is an "attack".

[Noscitur a sociis]

You're the first person to use the word "attack".

[Brett Bellmore]

In this very brief thread, anyway.

[Scooter]

Yup. There have been plenty of others where accurately describing a male as "male" is regarded as an 'attack'.

[Noscitur a sociis]

Overall my views on this issue are pretty close to yours, but come on. If you really can't think of any examples, stick around this thread, because they're coming.

[Brett Bellmore]

Well, sure, in a nation of over 330M, you can generally find somebody who does any "nobody does that!" act. But, still, basically every time HERE someone has been accused of "dehumanizing" this group or that, they've merely disagreed with them.

[Nige]

Oh sure there are plenty of examples, with examples you can prove anything!

[Social Justice is neither]

I’ll skip the advocacy for child brainwashing and mutilation by progs thanks.

[David Nieporent]

Which is stupider: that your attitude is, "I don't want to hear what someone who disagrees with me might have to say," or that your attitude is "I'm not even smart enough to figure out the position this person holds, but I don't want to hear it anyway"?

[The Margrave of Azilia]

The speech hasn't been delivered yet, and his Atlantic article is behind a paywall

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/07/when-a-child-says-shes-trans/561749/

But if his article is in the Atlantic he probably doesn't oppose these "treatments" in all cases.

[Josh R]

I had one free article left.

He strikes a sympathetic tone for the need for physical interventions for many people stressing that it alone works. However for kids, he urges caution because they might not be so sure. He comments that both WPATH and American professional organizations are closely aligned to his viewpoint. But, LGBT advocacy groups have been pushing a more aggressive stance.

[Nige]

He urges caution despite never ever finding a single rushed transition despite looking for years for even one, and he got caught out lying about at least one, and regret rates are consistently 1%. He's got big centrist brain trying to give a reasonable sounding voice - that does not stand up to scrutiny - to horrible transphobia.

[SimonP]

Singal has a reputation for amplifying cases of people who detransition or who consider transitioning before declining to do so. His podcast partner similarly seems focused on gathering evidence to support the conservative anti-trans case. That's why Eugene wants to go.

These are the sort of people who enable your transphobia from within the academy. You ought to be paying attention to the arguments they're making, rather than the simple-minded rhetoric you get from your usual handlers.

[Joe_dallas]

Its not transphobia – its a case of protecting minors from a false diagnosis and protecting minor from an irreversible pseudo treatment that causes permanent damage.

recent studies show 1.3%-1.5% of children and teens suffering from gender disphoria or transgendger confusion. Does anyone seriously think that the actual percentage of children actually having a biological issue with their gender is that high. Which raises the obvious point that the vast majority of those suffering is a mental illness and they believe that they are suffering from gender confusion is being pushed by advocates.

[Scooter]

"Phobic" is the new slur to replace less socially acceptable ones. Now, if you don't thing the government should force a baker to decorate a cake you're "Homophobic". If you think entry into this country should be more controlled and immigrants be vetted more carefully, you're "Xenophobic". If you don't think biological males should compete in athletic events against biological females where muscle mass, bone density etc offer a measurable advantage you're "Transphobic". It's an obvious attempt to silence disagreement.

[Joe_dallas]

its an attempt to silence debate
and its demonstrates the person throwing the slurs can not debate the merits. Hating trans is a very common slur from the advocates.

[SimonP]

I'm sure you'd find a lot to like in Singal's writing, then.

recent studies show 1.3%-1.5% of children and teens suffering from gender disphoria or transgendger confusion.

I think our society has a deeply problematic conception of gender that is breaking down in light of recent feminist and queer movements. People are realizing that our society historically has raised "girls" to be docile "women" who behave a certain way, in a manner that massively wastes their potential, and we all have a new vocabulary to speak about this. But this revolution in how we think about gender is running up against very strong cultural preferences for a clearly-defined gender binary, with the result that a lot of people who find traditional gender roles confining or harmful are resorting to identifying as "trans" as a way to find legitimacy for their feelings.

I don't think people are sick, because I don't think transgenderism is fundamentally disordered, any more than I believe that being gay is a disease. But I do think that the higher rates of people coming out as "trans" indicates a deeper level of social sickness, insofar as they're struggling to find an expression of their gender that our society denies them. That is, if one could be a "man" but still display qualities that we typically characterize as "feminine," I think we would see more boys/men identifying as "men" rather than resorting to "coming out" as "trans" as a way to live their genuine selves. But we're just still very hostile to that being an option, as a society.

[Noscitur a sociis]

But we’re just still very hostile to that being an option, as a society.

Maybe we should do something about that?

[Joe_dallas]

Simon P - that is a typical agenda driven BS used to justify the advocacy for the diagnosis.

There is absolutely zero probability of that high of a percentage of the population is suffering from gender ID issues. What that rate tells us is that the diagnosis is being pushed upon those suffering with mental illness and those afflicted are being fooled with the pseudo diagnosis. A high percentage of the kids with the trans syndrome are kids with some level of autism thus highly vunerable to suggestive diagnosis.

[Josh R]

a lot of people who find traditional gender roles confining or harmful are resorting to identifying as “trans” as a way to find legitimacy for their feelings

Am I correct that you are arguing there is an over-diagnosis of gender dysphoria in kids because society has a too confined a view of gender, gender roles and gender expression. If so, that's a thoughtful and thought provoking take. It appears Joe_dallas missed your point, which he might actually agree with once he realizes you agree there is an over-diagnosis.

I was laying over in SFO this week. Between terminals E and D is a photography exhibit telling the stories of a dozen or so trans people who are at least in their 50s. Their perspectives, born of a time before a trans movement, are quite powerful.

[VinniUSMC]

Am I correct that you are arguing there is an over-diagnosis of gender dysphoria in kids because society has a too confined a view of gender, gender roles and gender expression. If so, that’s a thoughtful and thought provoking take.

I think that's what he is saying. And I fully agree with it. Let's just figure this stage of our societal evolution out before we go around mutilating everyone.

[Joe_dallas]

Josh - its a significant improvement that people are now at least recognizing that transgender and/or gender confusion is being over diagnosed. Bear in mind, the mental health profession has a long and sordid history of faddish false diagnosis and false treatments.

[Josh R]

Would you agree there are nonetheless many kids who have a legitimate diagnosis for which physical interventions are justified?

[Joe_dallas]

realistically vastly fewer than are being diagnosed with transgender issues
Again, its a mental illness not a biological deformity, thus, the prescribed intervention wont cure the mental illness.

[Josh R]

In other words, you have closed your mind and listening to Singal is a waste of your time.

[Joe_dallas]

No - it’s a case of agenda driven advocates closing their mind to biological reality and denial of the mental health issues

[TwelveInchPianist]

But this revolution in how we think about gender is running up against very strong cultural preferences for a clearly-defined gender binary, with the result that a lot of people who find traditional gender roles confining or harmful are resorting to identifying as “trans” as a way to find legitimacy for their feelings.

You mean we should tell kids that it's perfectly OK for girls to like trucks, instead of telling girls that if they like trucks they may be boys born into the wrong body who are at grave risk of suicide if they don't mutilate themselves?

Sound great, but I'm pretty sure we were already doing that before the gender cultists captured the kindergartens.

[Nige]

'if they like trucks they may be boys born into the wrong body'

Satanic panic!

[David Nieporent]

I think this is surprisingly nuanced and reasonable from Simon on a sensitive topic like this, though I don't agree with all of it. But when I first heard about the trans idea,¹ it seemed to me that despite all the attempts to argue about why gender was an internal identity, for the vast majority of people identifying as trans the notion was more about not conforming to traditional gender stereotypes. But the odd thing about it is that in order for that to work, it actually had to endorse those stereotypes for others. That a biological man (or "AMAB," if you insist) who doesn't want to act in stereotypically male ways and do stereotypically male things doesn't therefore become a woman, because men are not required to do stereotypically male things to be men.

Where I don't agree with you is your idea that people are identifying as trans because our "sick" society denies men the ability to behave as women or vice versa. It seems awfully weird to suggest that it's more socially acceptable to be trans than to be gender non-conforming. (Though I do know a bunch of gay rights people who feel that our society is pushing gay kids to be trans rather than gay.)

¹Well, not the first time I ever heard of it; hell, I vaguely remember Renée Richards. But I mean in recent years, when it began to be routinely discussed and "gay rights" became "LGBTQ rights."

[Nige]

'I think we would see more boys/men identifying as “men” rather than resorting to “coming out” as “trans” as a way to live their genuine selves'

Lots of boys snd girls and non-binary individuals dress and behave in gender non-conforming ways. They probably don't get quite as much stick from the right as trans people do, though it's still a lot of stick, so I'm not sure you're on the right track.

[Lee Moore]

Well, I will echo other people in saying that Simon P's comment is interesting and enlightening, even though there are chunks I disagree with.

1. "Overdiagnosis" highlights the risk of early intervention, if and to the extent that "treatment" is not entirely reversible.
2. Simon's comment highlights the key distinction between :
(a) people of sex P, who genuinely have a mental sense that they are really of sex Q, and there has been some kind of mistake, and
(b) people of sex P, who have no such contrary mental sense, but who merely wish to behave, to some extent, in a manner that is more usual for people of sex Q
3. This distinction explains why many people think "trans" is a fraud. And so it is for (b)s - not only are these so-called "trans" folk not the sex they claim to be, but they don't even think so themselves. And the last thing they need is medical intervention.
4. But for (a)s, even though they are not sex P, their claim is not a fraud. They really do think they are sex Q and that there has been a horrible mistake somewhere.
5. Which brings us on to Joe's diagnosis of "mental illness." For (a)s it seems hard to dispute that the problem lies in the mind, not the body, for it is the mind that is mistaken about the reality of the body. Nevertheless, although I am enormously sceptical here, it does not follow automatically that the most effective treatment is to conform the mind to the body's reality. At least in theory it might be more effective to adjust the body to the mind's mistake.
6. But it seems to me that even if adjusting the body to the mind's mistake were the most effective treatment, to the extent that that treatment requires third parties to nod along with the adjustment, the treatment cannot possibly succeed. You can treat the patient, you can't treat the entire world. Even with totalitarian means.
7. The main bit I disagree with Simon on is the suggestion that gender roles are essentially the cultural creations. Of course particular societies have a significant effect on gender roles, but there is also a significant biological underpinning, as can be seen easily by comparing human gender roles with the same thing in animals. The notion that human gender roles can be adjusted to eliminate that wicked dark 1950s Midwestern template is a fantasy. For the template was not created in the Midwest in the 1950s. It dates back way longer than that.

[Nige]

'Does anyone seriously think'

Anyone know what this fallacy is called? Anyone?

[Nige]

'its a case of protecting minors from a false diagnosis'

He has never identified a single such case.

[Michael Ejercito]

People disagree what it means to affirm gender.

[AmosArch]

Gender changing drugs are completely reversible! Thats why its important to start them early before its too late!

[Bruce Hayden]

Except for te sterility which appears to be permanent.

[Brett Bellmore]

There are also problems with bone density, I understand.

[Joe_dallas]

Bone density issues as noted by brett
sterility issues as noted by Bruce
numerous brain developmental issues have been documented.

Its rarely a good idea to retard the natural human development .

[Moderation4ever]

While treatment does retard development, we are by lifestyle accelerating develop. Kid are reaching puberty earlier likely from having access to good nutrition and healthcare. Human can affect both directions.

[Nige]

Wow, end all hormone treatments right now, the experts have spoken.

[Nige]

By and large they are reversable.

[Dr. Ed 2]

There was a time when chopping off healthy body parts was considered medical malpractice -- actually worse than mere malpractice. We were a better country back then.

These people are mentally ill and no number of equally insane Voodoo Scientists are going to change that fact.

[VinniUSMC]

Citing inadequate knowledge about the efficacy and long-term health effects of such medical interventions, several European countries have adopted a more cautious stance towards such treatments, without banning them. Meanwhile, several US states have enacted draconian restrictions on gender-affirming care, which, alongside the sometimes dehumanizing language deployed against trans and gender nonconforming people, has only further polarized the public discussion of youth gender medicine.

Who is polarizing the discussion? Certainly not the handful of people who actually believe that transitioning children is virtuous. Definitely not. No, it’s all the sane people saying “woah, wait a minute, this is a massive, life-altering course and we should really have a lot more research and caution involved here.”

Nah, definitely the nuts who think a 5 year old "knows" they’re the wrong gender, and also a dinosaur, should transition.

[Longtobefree]

The funny thing in all this is that the same people who claim there are 342 genders only support "transitioning" between the two real ones.

[VinniUSMC]

Trans is entirely antithetical to the sexual revolution. And any hope society has of moving forward from the constraining masc/fem traditional gender roles. There's no reason we can't acknowledge the biology of binary sexes and also allow for men to be more "feminine" and vice versa, and then truly be able to help people who legit suffer from gender dysphoria.

[Nige]

There aren't enough trans people in existence to move the needle on on social masc/fem roles even a fraction, they're conforming to existing roles as a social expression of their identity, when they do conform, not creating or destroying them.

[Nige]

'Singal's extensive reporting on youth gender medicine, while not shying away from controversy, has shown that it is possible to address a heatedly contested public issue in a nuanced manner that recognizes the complexities of the issue and respects the diversity of perspectives affected by it.'

It really, really doesn't. It shows that if you amplify a minority of voices and completely unqualified people with strong anti-trans opinions and largely ignore anyone else with an opinion except to argue with them in twitter when they point out he's been taken for a ride over and over again, so often he's either dense or committed to the bit, you can be 'deeply concerned.'

[Noscitur a sociis]

Who are some of the completely unqualified people he's amplifying?

Who is the best example of someone he's improperly ignoring?

[Nige]

Whenever he talks to someone who isn't a clinician or a trans person, he's talking to the unqualified. He never does either, and he's been doing this for YEARS. He got a huge scare article out of a mother claiming her daughter had been rushed into transition until the duaghter spoke up and said he mother was full of shit.

[Life of Brian]

Whenever he talks to someone who isn’t a clinician or a trans person, he’s talking to the unqualified.

Behold, the secular equivalent of high priesthood.

[Nige]

Behold the rejection of trained expertise and actual experience.

[Life of Brian]

Not at all. I'm simply rejecting your faith-based dogma that those are the only two groups of people qualified to speak on the subject.

[Nige]

I'm saying there are two qualified groups of people who are the minimum requirement for talking about the subject you aggrieved weirdo.

[David Nieporent]

Nige's trick is to declare it a question of medical expertise when he's talking about people who disagree with him, but then defer to patients — with no medical expertise — at other times. But then when it turns out that the medical consensus does not actually reflect his position, he deflects by claiming some mysterious cabal of the religious right in completely secular countries in Western Europe is actually tricking the medical community there.

(And all that begs the question of whether this is really "medical" at all. Gender identity is not exactly a rigorous scientific concept, and the studies that have been done are generally low-powered, p-hacked surveys suffering from high dropout rates and little objective to actually measure.)

[Nige]

No, my trick is to point out that the main stakeholders in this are

1. the medical experts who are trained to do this
and
2. the people who actually undergo the treatment.

If you're not taking their views into account, you're not actually interested in whether the treatment works or not.

'But then when it turns out that the medical consensus does not actually reflect his position,'

You mean does not refelct the overall position of the medical community.

'some mysterious cabal of the religious right in completely secular countries'

No, the funding comes from fundamentalists in the US and also from Russia, it's not secret or mysterious it's all quite open, the European groups can be secular or Christian, it hardly matters, a massive amounts of funding will more than make up for being a tiny minority.

'And all that begs the question of whether this is really “medical” at all.'

Saints preserve us.

[David Nieporent]

‘some mysterious cabal of the religious right in completely secular countries’

No, the funding comes from fundamentalists in the US and also from Russia, it’s not secret or mysterious it’s all quite open, the European groups can be secular or Christian, it hardly matters, a massive amounts of funding will more than make up for being a tiny minority.

Even Brett Bellmore's conspiracy theories are less wacky than this.

[Nige]

You're normally way smarter than this.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/us-christian-right-wing-groups-financed-anti-rights-campaigns-in-europe/
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/russia-s-role-stoking-right-wing-extremism-west

[Josh R]

In the Atlantic article, Singal concludes the studies in spite of their weaknesses, along with the testimonies of many trans people, make a strong case that gender-affirming care is the only thing works for many people with gender dysphoria (while questioning whether physical interventions are used to quickly for kids). WPATH and virtually all American medical professional groups agree.

[Nige]

'while questioning whether physical interventions are used to quickly for kids'

There's the wedge. He has never found a single case of intervention being used too quickly, but you can scare up a lot with that bit of concern trolling.

[Noscitur a sociis]

Whenever he talks to someone who isn’t a clinician or a trans person, he’s talking to the unqualified. He never does either, and he’s been doing this for YEARS.

https://www.blockedandreported.org/p/bonus-interview-youth-gender-clinician-731

In a bonus interview episode, Jesse interviews Dr. Erica Anderson, a trans woman and Bay-Area-based gender clinician with years of experience working with transgender and gender nonconforming youth. The two discuss the white-hot debate over trans kids, including what comprehensive, compassionate assessment looks like in this field, and how clincians decide when a young person is ready for puberty blockers and/or hormones.

[Nige]

Amazing. And yet he's still most noted for his concern trolling for a problem he has never actually identified as occurring.

[Noscitur a sociis]

He got a huge scare article out of a mother claiming her daughter had been rushed into transition until the duaghter spoke up and said he mother was full of shit.

Could you link to the article you’re talking about?

[Nige]

https://www.assignedmedia.org/breaking-news/jesse-singal-misrepresented-a-trans-girls-medical-history-and-she-called-him-out

[Noscitur a sociis]

So when you say he wrote “a huge scare article”, you mean a 40 word tweet?

[Nige]

Beg pardon. It’s the ‘scare’ that was ‘huge.’ The guy’s dishonest, irresponsible and comitted to finding what isn’t there.

https://www.assignedmedia.org/breaking-news/jamie-reeds-misinfo-exposed-by-jesse-singal?rq=jesse

[M L]

The movie, What is a Woman? did not lack sanity or humanity.

[Social Justice is neither]

It lacked all kinds of sanity, just not on Matt's side of the discussion.

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