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UK Home Secretary Calls for "Heavy Criminal Consequences" for Various Pro-Hamas Speech
From the Oct. 10 letter by Secretary Suella Braverman (see also Reuters on the French bans on "pro-Palestinian protests"):
You will be aware of, and no doubt share my disgust at, the barbaric terrorist attacks we've seen committed against Israel in recent days. Sadly, experience indicates that whenever Israel is attacked, Islamists and other racists, seek to use legitimate Israeli defensive measures as a pretext to stir up hatred against British Jews and increase fear within the Jewish community. In the past, this has included vandalism of Jewish businesses, desecration of memorials and religious sites, physical and verbal abuse of Jews on the streets, convoys driving through Jewish neighbourhoods hurling antisemitic abuse, and proliferation of antisemitism online. There is an obvious risk that this pattern will be repeated during the current conflict….
As you know, Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK in its entirety. It is therefore a criminal offence for a person in the UK to:
- belong to Hamas
- invite support for Hamas
- express support for Hamas whilst being reckless as to whether the expression will encourage support of it
- arrange a meeting in support of Hamas
- wear clothing or carry articles in public which arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of Hamas or
- publish an image of an article such as a flag or logo in the same circumstances …
Of course, it is not just explicit pro-Hamas symbols and chants that are cause for concern. I would encourage police to consider whether chants such as "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" should be understood as an expression of a violent desire to see Israel erased from the world, and whether its use in certain contexts may amount to a racially aggravated section 5 public order offence.
I would encourage police to give similar consideration to the presence of symbols such as swastikas at anti-Israel demonstrations. Context is crucial. Behaviours that are legitimate in some circumstances, for example the waving of a Palestinian flag, may not be legitimate such as when intended to glorify acts of terrorism. Nor is it acceptable to drive through Jewish neighbourhoods, or single out Jewish members of the public, to aggressively chant or wave pro-Palestinian symbols at. Where harassment is identified, I would encourage the police to take swift and appropriate enforcement action.
I encourage all Chief Officers to ensure that any protests which could exacerbate community tensions by way of offensive placards, chants, or behaviours that could be construed as incitement or harassment, have a strong police presence to ensure perpetrators are appropriately dealt with, and that communities feel protected….
I have also been absolutely clear that online offending is as serious as offline offending….
I therefore expect the police to use the full force of the law against displays of support for Hamas, other proscribed terrorist groups or attempts to harass and intimidate British Jews.
Ensuring that there are heavy criminal consequences for any perpetrators is the best way to deter future offending and ensure the confidence and safety of our Jewish communities.
I share the views of FIRE's Sarah McLaughlin, writing in "Don't Let Free Expression Become a Casualty of the Israel-Hamas War" (Daily Beast):
It is not strength to silence unpopular political views. It is weakness.
The right to wave an Israeli flag depends on the same protections afforded to those who wish to wave a Palestinian flag. One cannot exist without the other.
There are plenty of organizations that would be quite happy to silence pro-Israel speech, sharp criticisms of Palestinians, and endorsement of Israeli retaliation against Palestinians; allowing use of the law to suppress pro-Palestinian speech would give them a powerful precedent. That you or I distinguish Hamas attacks and retaliatory Israeli attacks on moral grounds (as I think we should) doesn't mean we can count on government agencies, public universities, or courts drawing such sharp distinctions.
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The never ending bickering of children in their sandbox is tiresome. And, for Americans to take sides with their only answer of more violence is disgusting.
Infants v. Toddlers – a case with no court
The US must take sides. Genocide is an extraterritorial US federal capital crime. US Zionists perpetrate genocide, participate in genocide, or provide material support to genocide against Palestinians in stolen Palestine. The US DOJ probably engages in selective prosecution or selective enforcement by giving US Zionists a license to commit such crimes.
It’s also an interesting constitutional question. The US president has foreign policy authority. Does this foreign policy authority extend to aiding a foreign country to perpetrate a US federal capital crime? The Constitution says that the president shall “take care that the laws be faithfully executed,” Biden was the lead Senate-sponsor of 18 U.S. Code § 1091 – Genocide. Biden is a lawyer. He should understand what the crime of genocide is.
For 5 years, I studied under the lawyer, who litigated al-Tamimi v Adelson. He was a lawyer far superior to Biden. I have a good understanding of US and international anti-genocide law. Unless Biden is lying for political reasons, he demonstrates no understanding of the law of genocide when he accuses the RF of committing genocide or intending genocide in Ukraine.
Nuke Gaza — use the neutron bomb.
See, THAT’S genocide.
No, a justifiable act of war.
See: Dresden.
If Dresden happened today it would be an open and shut war crime.
It’s not what’s known now but what was known then — and not known then. The Battle of the Bulge was a complete surprise and nearly successful. Dresden was a key road & rail junction being used to move men & material east and there was belief that the Nazis had actually built their planned redoubt in the area.
Dresden was bombed to keep Stalin advancing at his current pace, although that was political as Patton would have reached Berlin first if he had been given the fuel he needed.
Dresden is too complicated to simply dismiss as a war crime.
Yeah, and Adolph Hitler III would be Fuhrer of the Greater German Reich, and there wouldn’t be a living Jew within a 1500 mile radius of Berlin.
You’d probably like that.
Sorry, we Jews aren’t going away or being “Replaced” as much as the “Reverend” Jerry/Arthur Kirtland/Sandusky might wish,
Eternal Jew (see what I did there? “The Eternal Jew” was a Nazi Propaganda Movie, and I’m gonna throw it back) Jewish Problem (See what I did there “Jewish Problem”?)
Is we’re too fucking nice, Should have taken Cairo in 1973, kicked the (Walk like an) Egyptians back into the Desert where they belong, Beirut too, would have saved hundreds of Marines murdered in October 1983 (October a bad month for Jews/Marines) And would anyone really miss Syria??
Even now we’re letting the “Non Combatants” flee to the South (I hope it’s a trick and they hit the South first), Not a military man, but I’d let them just sit and stew in their shit for a month or so, then kick the shit out of them.
Oh, the “Hostages”?? Dead
Frank “Realist”
Genocide is never a jusftifiable act of war you moral mutant.
Nige-bot does not understand concept of Human War.
Well now do Hiroshima, which my late father in law credited with allowing him to survive WW2 as a 22 year old 2nd lieutenant.
So, not a parody account?
No; he’s a troll. He’s been virulently anti-semitic, anti-Muslim, anti-Hindu at various points in his Internet trolling “career” (so to speak), which has lasted over 30 years. He’s been (at least) Ashkenazi, Muslim, and Sephardi at different points. He’s an engineer, a legal scholar, a Talmudic scholar, a historian, and a Wall Street analyst. (The only thing he’s never been is successful at anything.)
Nieporent never makes any comment but an attack ad hominem while he pontificates about legal areas with which he is unfamiliar.
I would like him to write up a coherent argument to explain how 47 U.S.C. § 230 repeals or overrides 47 U.S.C. § 202, 47 U.S.C. § 206, and 47 U.S.C. § 207 when Congress could have explicitly repealed them in the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Most of the changes to telecommunications law are found in Chapter Five of Title 47. 47 U.S. Code § 153 was explicitly modified so that all these statutes made sense together.
I helped Martin with Arabic and Hebrew texts that were relevant to his cases. I read all the genocide case documents and annotated them. I tried to clarify numerous issues that could only be explained by someone that read either Arabic or Hebrew. In truth, I did more or less the same work that I used to for the AT&T legal team although obviously on different subject matter.
OK, so besides that, what’s your problem?
Does studying under dozens of public defenders count?
Asking for a friend.
Bravo, David.
Yes, the US must take sides — there have been upwards of 50 American citizens either murdered or kidnapped and under the International Law you so much love to cite, the US has every right to declare war on Gaza because of the harm that the purported “Palestinians” have done to US citizens.
When you realize that China is still in good standing with the UN, we could then occupy Gaza and treat the occupants the way that China’s treating the Uighurs — slave labor camps and the rest.
And while it isn’t what Israel is going to do — under the International Law you so love to cite — it could do the same thing. Perhaps should….
“we could then occupy Gaza and treat the occupants the way that China’s treating the Uighurs — slave labor camps”
I have to say— amid all the deranged comments to pop up on these threads, this one— to me— really stands out. Bring back slavery??!
“Could” does not mean “should”, and if the UN had any useful purpose whatsoever, it would be addressing Chinese treatment of the Uighurs (who *are* Muslims, a point many ignore).
I’d just had enough of that A-hole misquoting International law and decided to point out what actually would be “legal” under current international law and precedent.
Of course there is one more practical thing about slavery that I’d thought would occur to everyone — profit. What could you do with slaves in Gaza that you couldn’t do *cheaper* with mechanization and/or a combination of mechanization and paid labor?
Massachusetts no longer has prisoners making license plates — there were too many problems ranging from urine in the paint (causing the paint to quickly fail) to citizens freaking out over notes inserted with the plates — the RMV now has private contractors making them. And that was in a relatively small shop in a highly supervised prison — you’d have major problems supervising slavery on a large scale.
Before I try to answer this more fully, can I ask you a question?
Have you ever been to manzanar?
I think we both know that the first time someone thought of offering employment to the interned Japanese — and those were good wages for the time, my uncles got shot at for $20/month in the Army — a half dozen different government unions would file grievances and put an end to it.
So, no?
I’d encourage you to visit before you suggest interning people based on nationality. YMMV.
I’ve been to Manzanar and Tule lake. Neither were garden spots or hellholes.
A good friend of mine had both of his parents interned there, his father left to go visit Italy in 43, on the whole he preferred Manzanar.
I actually met a woman who was interned there with her mother as a young teen, she said that she and a lot of people there were relieved to be interned because the climate in LA at the time was very intimidating, but thats just one perspective.
I myself can’t see how Democrats can venerate someone like Franklin Roosevelt with his disregard for the civil rights of American citizens, and is unfeeling treatment of refugees from Europe even before that.
Other than postal workers, there weren’t any meaningful federal government unions in the 1940s, and what “grievance” could they have filed in any case?
I left out the word “today” — if someone were to propose doing this TODAY.
As to public sector unionization, both FDR and George Meaney vehemently opposed it — there were no Federal unions then, but there are now and the grievances would be filed if something similar were to be done NOW.
Why would Japanese people be interned today? Or are you proposing that too?
“I think we both know that the first time someone thought of offering employment to the interned Japanese — and those were good wages for the time, my uncles got shot at for $20/month in the Army — a half dozen different government unions would file grievances and put an end to it.“
I don’t know anything like that. It sounds like another one of your weird fantasies. Although I prefer this fantasy tale— the REAL reason interned Japanese weren’t put to work was because of UNIONS— to your other, more lurid, nuclear, fantasies.
You need help my brother. You are not well. Get it before you hurt yourself or someone else. I’m praying for you— seriously.
In 1922, an E-1 with less than four months earned $21 per month and it hasn’t gone down since. Implausible.
All I can say is what they told me about “the God Damned Army.”
I get it, you didn’t serve (“Homo”?? I’m sure you’re “Much better now”)
But did it go up?
Probably still in the low 20’s in the 40’s especially considering the depression starting in ’28.
I just asked my mother how much she got at her first job at S&H Kress downtown SF in 1942. She said she was paid 4.82 a week. The Army of course included room and board so it may well have been about the same as for a civilian teenager.
In 1940, an E1 with less than four months earned $128 / month, so yeah, it went up.
“Of course there is one more practical thing about slavery that I’d thought would occur to everyone — profit. What could you do with slaves in Gaza that you couldn’t do *cheaper* with mechanization and/or a combination of mechanization and paid labor?“
It sounds like you’re talking about practical objections to forced labor camps, rather than philosophical objections. Would that be accurate?
I am merely stating that anyone who seriously considers the practical implications would instantly understand that I was not seriously proposing turning Gaza into a slave labor camp and hence the philosophical issues were moot.
But if that isn’t good enough, let me mention that two of my Great-Great-Grandfathers fought in the war to end Slavery — one came back without his foot and the other didn’t come back at all — I’m kinda opposed to slavery. More than kinda….
I see… are you also seriously proposing this or not?
“Nuke Gaza — use the neutron bomb.”
Because if so— I don’t understand your squeamishness over internment and forced labor.
I’m being sarcastic — Israel doesn’t have a neutron bomb, nor do we — it got cancelled.
This time you’re being sarcastic? Or every time you’ve posted “nuke Gaza”?
Again— as someone who has called for judges to be hung from lampposts, for the US to nuke Mexico, for A-10s to strafe the border, etc.— your sudden squeamishness about internment and forced labor (which you brought up, btw) doesn’t make sense to me. Not bloody enough?
Israel doesn’t have a Neutron Bomb because they don’t need a Neutron Bomb, they have Hydrogen Bombs, like We, Roosh-a, Chy-Na! India (what would Gahndi think of a Hydrogen Bomb) Pock-E-ston, UK, France (I’m seriously more concerned about France having a Hydrogen Bomb than any other country, who are they going to Nuke? Spain?)
Israel isn’t going to use their Nukes on their borders, Fall Out for one hand, They don’t need to on the other. The Nukes are for Ear-Ron, Syria, Saudi Arabia if certain things happen.
Frank
“ we could then occupy Gaza and treat the occupants the way that China’s treating the Uighurs — slave labor camps and the rest.”
“I’m kinda opposed to slavery. More than kinda….” Because of two ancestors you never met?
And yet you were the one who posted this insane idea in the first place. Then you say you weren’t being serious. So at best— you’re just trolling?
So the only reason you oppose slavery is that two of your ancestors who died long before you were born happened to fight on the right side in a war that ended 150 years ago?
Well I oppose slavery too although I had one ancestor who was a 35 year old private in the Alabama infantry during the civil war. But I somewhat doubt he volunteered, he probably knew better at 35.
Estragon,
How can you waste your time talking with Mr. Ed? Just put him on mute.
No. This brain dead lunacy should be combatted at every turn.
Ed has been hired to post here to neutralize you and others that must shoot their wad refuting his more outrageous assertions.
Obviously they tremble at the thought of you training your boundless intellect at more substantial utterings.
The PRC government treats many groups miserably including Chinese (remember Tiananmen Square). A different and much harder. Abolition of the Zionist state can easily be carrier out and would solve many problems.
Bullshyte.
The “Zionist State” offers Muslims — Muslims — rights that other Muslim countries don’t. There are two sects who don’t like each other, and only in Israel are you safe if you are in the wrong sect.
Comparing Israel to the PRC is asinine. And you are an arse if you truly believe what you proclaim.
Are you surprised at the deranged comments? Zionists and their supporters (including Biden and most of Congress) are deranged. From this standpoint, it is easy to understand why the US government is dysfunctional.
Isn’t “bring back slavery” essentially the same argument that Zionists use when they argue that they have the right to commit genocide against the natives because the US committed genocide against the natives 100 years ago?
OK.
My family lost property in the American Revolution, and notwithstanding the Treaty of Paris, we were never compensated.
So I can go up to Keene (NH) State College and rape assorted CoEds in retaliation? (It’s on the land we once owned.)
Are you SERIOUSLY supporting rape and beheading babies?
Look at the white racist (Dr. Ed 2) babble the propaganda nonsense of racist genocidal Zionists. There were neither rapes nor baby beheading. Zionist propagandists made all the defamation up as they have made up all sorts of defamation of Palestinians since the 1880s.
Not only were there rapes and baby beheadings but the savages recorded them and put it on the internet. So don’t say that it didn’t happen.
This is why Eisenhower ordered troops and townspeople marched through the liberated death camps — so that no one could ever say it didn’t happen.
“There were neither rapes nor baby beheading” Motherfucker, I know you’re some Towel Head in Dearborn typing with one hand and jerking off to Kiddie Porn with the other, but jerk off to this, shit head. I’ve got 4 Pumpkins, that I drew a “Muhammad Face” on, and I’m going to shoot with my M1 Garand (Civilian Marksmanship Progrom Model) tomorrow, I’ll make believe it’s you.
Frank
“My family lost property in the American Revolution, and notwithstanding the Treaty of Paris, we were never compensated.”
Loyalists? Does that Anglophilia explain your bizarre use of “bullshyte” and “arse” on these pages?
The only one here on record as supporting rape is you.
Zionist colonial settlers have been murdering Palestinian Americans forever.
Doddering white racist Biden met with the families of US Zionists, who were probable violators of 18 U.S. Code § 2339A – Providing material support to terrorists. Yet the doddering racist refused to meet with the family of Shirin Abu Akleh even though the murder of Abu Akleh was almost certainly an actus reus of genocide in the ongoing Zionist genocide against Palestinians.
As opposed to all of the Hamas Chapters on US college campi?
Are you insane?
Uh oh. Fabulists are fighting! As Kissinger said about the Iran-Iraq war, it’s a pity they can’t both lose.
Oh, they’ll find a way.
He was right. Funny how all the bullshit of the last 35 years started right after the “Iran-Iraq Peace Agreement” let’s see Lockerbie, Desert Shield/Storm, Muhajadeen take over Off-Gone-E-Stan…
UN Charter Article 51 does not apply to the native resistance of a downtrodden occupied population. The US would have no right to declare war on Hamas; however, if the US carried out its legal obligation to prevent genocide by abolishing the Zionist state, I am sure that Hamas would in gratitude release all Americans currently detained.
The hell they would.
Look at their demands — we release all the terrorists — convicted terrorists — that we have in our prisons.
Personally, I think this is why we should execute them. That would prevent demands like this.
The savages are quite clear — after they exterminate “the Saturday people”, they intend to then exterminate “the Sunday people” — i.e. Christians. And as a Christian, let me state that I’d prefer not to be exterminated. And while I’d prefer not to see 2 million dead Palestinians, if that’s what it takes, so be it. It’s their choice.
“Infants v. Toddlers – a case with no court”
Only one side considers infants to be combatants.
It’s Israel, right?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
The IDF aren’t sent into combat with MAPS AS TO WHERE THE CHILDREN ARE so they can kill them.
If anything, they have maps to avoid them. And try to.
And I think it’s time to bring back loyalty oaths — loyalty to JudeoChristian values or you ain’t working in the education field anymore. Nor practicing law…
They don’t seem to try very hard, given the number of dead Palestinian children.
It appears that the IDF tries to maim Palestinian kids so they can’t grow up to fight. But sometimes they don’t survive the gunshot. Is that a Judeo-Christisn value?
Hamas being terrible doesn’t make Israel wonderful. They agree on one thing, anyway: permanent war.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/shoot-maim-how-israel-created-generation-crutches-gaza
In what sense is this a conspiracy theory? It only takes one Israeli soldier to shoot a kid in the leg (or neck). Pretty easy to understand without needing to resort to conspiracy theories.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/features/stolen-childhoods-gazas-injured-children-struggle-complete-education
I’m waiting for you to find a way to defend all this, Noscitur.
Defend what?
I concede that if you take these accounts at face value, they reflect the IDF engaging in inappropriate use of force. But even if you’re credulous enough to do so, getting from there to “the IDF tries to maim Palestinian kids so they can’t grow up to fight” requires a ride on the crazy train that would make Brett Bellmore think twice.
Why do you think they’re intentionally maiming Palestinian kids? For fun? That’s worse!
Maiming them to keep them from becoming soldiers is the most charitable explanation I can think of.
Also pretty funny that when Israel does it, it’s “inappropriate use of force.” But when Hamas does it, it’s “butchering.” Nicely spun.
If you’re at the point where you have to equate the killing of 17 year olds who are attacking Israeli soldiers with butchering infants, you may want to take a step back and consider whether you’re supporting the right side.
I support Israel over Hamas.
Well I have taken a side, because I think Israel would be perfectly happy to see the West Bank and Gaza peaceful and prosperous. While for the most part the Gaza and possibly to a lesser extent the West Bank want to see Israel in ashes.
I’m not belittling the Palestinians grievances, and the injustice of a couple of million being displaced in ’48 and ’67. However I will contrast that with the 10-14 million Germans relocated from their ancestral homes in Prussia and Bohemia, and the rest of Central and Eastern Europe at the end of WW2 and the lack of longstanding grudges and terrorism, so the current situation is not foreordained. But there seems no desire at least with Hamas to actually contemplate a reasonable solution.
“I think Israel would be perfectly happy to see the West Bank and Gaza peaceful and prosperous. While for the most part the Gaza and possibly to a lesser extent the West Bank want to see Israel in ashes.”
Exactly.
Israel just wants to be left alone, and if the Palestinians are prosperous, so much the better — while they want to see the Jews dead. And me as well…
Only a clueless white racist or a mendacious Zionist claims that Zionist colonial settlers would leave Palestinians. Eradication of Palestinians has been a Zionist goal since the 1880s. Any living Palestinian represents an existential threat to Zionist colonial settlers. Palestinians descend from Greco-Roman Judeans while modern Jews do not. Palestinians belie the fairy tales on which Zionists since 1881 have claimed the right to commit genocide.
I’ve been wondering that myself. I think they’re primarily constrained by international sentiment (which also has an impact on domestic opinion).
Although mostly constrained for now, Israel has an undeniable urge to extend its borders. See e.g. settlements.
It was a choice in the early phases of the genocide that started in Dec 1947 not to commit mass murder. The Zionist leadership chose to expel Palestinians because the leadership needed lots of refugees to bog down Arab League forces. In the later phases of the genocide, Zionist militias did much more mass murder.
The situation probably changed with the murder of Mickey Marcus in June 1948. Marcus was a Nuremberg Prosecutor, who was involved in Nuremberg Trials. He understood the international crime of genocide and was aware that the Zionist militias were committing genocide. Ben Gurion ordered the murder of Marcus. If you wish to watch the Zionist propaganda version of the story, stream “Cast a Giant Shadow.”
“Ben Gurion ordered the murder of Marcus.”
That is an absolutely ridiculous statement. And the notion that Ted Berkman wrote “Zionist propaganda” is about as equally ridiculous.
This is patently unconstitutional. We shall see how reliable tradition-mindedness is as an enforcer of the British constitution. I trust that the Commons will sense the danger of crossing this threshold of criminalizing political speech. It’s hard to get back once one has passed the precipice.
The UK does not have a constitution.
What a bizarre claim. Of course the UK—like every other country—has a constitution.
Israel also does not have a constitution. The situation is rather similar to the UK.
In certain legal areas a reasonableness standard substitutes in a limited way for a constitution.
You’re correct that — unlike the U.S. — there is no one written document that constitutes their constitution. Rather, their constitution comprises various statutes, legal opinions, etc. that are recognized as their constitution.
“various statutes, legal opinions, etc. that are recognized as their constitution.”
Statutes that can be changed by their parliament by simple majority are arguably not a constitution in any meaningful sense.
Except that they are a set of laws that govern how laws are made, which is what a constitution is.
…of course, subject to change without notice.
Without notice! That’s certainly a novel approach to lawmaking.
Calling a flock of dolphins a whale does not make it so.
In recent years the Commons have given the government a lot more power to shut down protests than this.
Exactly.
I’m certainly not a fan of British speech restrictions, but once you’ve already crossed the line of arresting street preachers from reading the wrong biblical verses in public, or arresting mothers in front of their children for most entering someone in a tweet, or arresting a 15 old autistic girl for saying a police officer looks like her lesbian grandmother, then I think the train has already left the station when it comes to speech restrictions such as these.
I was censored by the spell checker.
“most entering” was how it rendered mis-gendering.
The notion that something a government does can be “unconstitutional” is almost exclusively an American one. There is no equivalent of the US Constitution in the UK, at least not in this sense.
The UK has a plethora of legal documents which, taken together, can be argued (not very convincingly, from an American perspective) to be a “constitution”, but there is nothing within that collection of documents which approximates the US’ “Bill of Rights”. There is the European Convention on Human Rights, which the UK has ratified, which includes what can be called a bill of rights, but this is the same convention which this UK government is also constantly threatening to jettison in favor of a new “UK Bill of Rights”, which does not yet exist.
That said, Braverman is a moron. But the idea that this lame duck Commons will do anything requiring a backbone is laughably absurd.
Most of the replies to this comment are disturbing.
Y’all gotta expand your horizons. I recommend “The People Themselves” by Larry Kramer. Google Books allows you to read the first two chapters or so free; it’ll open your eyes a bit.
Constitutions needn’t be codified or even written. And something can be unconstitutional despite the lack of a written proviso saying so.
I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Imagine a large group of Muslims in London waving Hamas flags and chanting pro-Palestinian slogans. What do you think are the odds of British law enforcement doing anything about it? I’d guess about zero.
Even after the UK Home Secretary expressly demanded this? Or is your point that London police might ignore her? Even if that’s likely — and I’m skeptical about that — wouldn’t police in most places still be likely to take her demands seriously?
In the USA speech can meet the legal definition of material support or resources to designated foreign terrorist organizations.
If one’s speech is found to be such material support, one can receive a long prison term if one is convicted. See Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project, 561 U.S. 1, 130 S. Ct. 2705, 177 L. Ed. 2d 355 (2010).
Incitement to genocide is also a crime according to 18 U.S. Code § 1091 – Genocide. Incitement-speech used to be limited to “speech integral to criminal conduct.” This requirement no longer seems to be the case.
What should Harvard do about HKS Ricardo Hausman? He is advocating a war crime and possibly genocide on Twitter/X. War crimes constitute a US federal crime according to § 2441. If he has dolus specialis of genocide, he is advocating genocide (§ 1091).
The tweet seems like hyperbole, but according to established international law, Zionists have been perpetrating genocide since Dec 1947 because Zionist genocide against Palestinians started in Dec 1947 with the Nakba and will not have ended until Palestinians return to their homes, property, villages, and country.
Julius Streicher is considered to be the first person, who was executed for a genocide-related Nazi crime. He neither harmed nor ordered harm to anyone, but his speech was found to be genocide-incitement, and he was hanged on Oct 16, 1946.
·
Unarmed cops against ARMED Palestinians?
Which armed Palestinians? You are aware that in the UK you can’t buy an automatic rifle at Walmart, right?
I hear knives are big with the Muzzies.
BY the way, you can’t buy an automatic rifle at Walmart.
‘Muzzies.’
Just been waiting for the chance, eh?
Rhymes with fuzzy. Thought it was kinder and gentler than the options.
Kinder and gentler racism.
Islam is a race?
Whatever term for your bigotry you prefer.
Thank you Rev. Kirkland Jr.
You’re welcome, Bumble Charlie Delta.
You are aware that in the UK you can’t buy an automatic rifle at Walmart, right?
Can you tell me which WalMarts you CAN buy an automatic rifle at?
Well to be fair, she didn’t “demand” anything she used the words encourage, ensure, expect.
I’m also not quite sure how the chain of command works in the UK, and whether there is the same tradition as here in the UK of a wide latitude of discretion on decisions to arrest and charge that are insulated from direct control by politicians.
Even after the UK Home Secretary expressly demanded this? Or is your point that London police might ignore her? Even if that’s likely — and I’m skeptical about that — wouldn’t police in most places still be likely to take her demands seriously?
It would appear not.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67110119
Tell me you don’t know anything about English law enforcement without telling me you don’t know anything about English law enforcement.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/14/london-police-defy-ban-on-badges-linked-to-far-right-and-white-supremacy
You think an article about how the guy who runs the police force—and thus would have ultimate decision-making power over how the police would handle the response—thinks showing support for police officers killed in the line of duty is tantamount to far right white supremacy undermines F.D. Wolf’s point?
France has also banned “pro-Palestinian” protests. I have not seen original reporting from France on exactly what is banned.
One would suspect that murdering teachers would be banned.
…or priests or burning churches.
Glad I don’t live in England.
True, they speak some strange dialect of American.
True. No matter how much time I spend driving there, I still can’t convince the other drivers that they’re on the wrong side of the road (and the car).
I never had that problem — they saw the bright yellow plow on my 10-wheel truck and decided to get back over to where they belonged. 🙂
There are a lot of places I’m glad I don’t live.
A history lesson, perhaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street
Sounds like fun. Can we do the same thing to the Left-Wing fascists eventually?
Or to right-wing communists…or to authoritarian libertarians, progressive conservatives, etc.
Republican monarchists. Seperatist unionists. Pro-oil environmentalists. This is addictive.
“It is not strength to silence unpopular political views. It is weakness.”
We are closer to something.
There are a lot more Muslims than Jews in England and even if only a fraction are pro-Palestinian, it would still be a bigger number. So good luck enforcing that
Don’t arrest anti-Israel demonstrators! Let them expose themselves, put their names into a database, and keep it for future reference.
Israel should not be using carpet-bombing or sieges or blockades. Geographical warfare is so twentieth-century. Twenty-first century technology enables individualized, personalized warfare, just as it enables individualized, personalized medicine. In the age of AI, and miniature drones and miniature cameras, Israel should be able to track and target members of Hamas and their loved ones without causing a lot of unsightly collateral damage.
Imagine if instead of bombing hospitals in Gaza, Israel were to selectively make hospitals unsafe for associates of Hamas members, so that civilians could still use hospitals in Gaza but Hamas members and their associates could not, until the Israeli hostages were freed. Imagine if, instead of answering the hostage-takers by reducing schools in Gaza to rubble, Israel were to answer by targeting the school-age children of high-ranking Hamas personnel, on a regular basis, so that being outed as Hamas were as deadly as living in Gaza is now. Wouldn’t that be a more effective deterrent to Hamas?
Precision bombing isn’t. Targeted strikes aren’t. Artificial intelligence isn’t very.
That is a great quote. I am stealing it and using it shamelessly. 🙂
And also, Intelligent Mr Toad isn’t.
As Hamas do not follow the rules of war, not dressing differently from the citizenry. your idea is fanciful.
Also part of the reason for the ISraeli bombing is to degrade Hamas’s infrastructure, much of which is apparently buried deep under civilian buildings like hospitals.
Let’s be serious. Hamas has to deal with Zionists. Zionists never follow the rules of war.
Zionists brought murder gangs and death squads to Palestine in the 19-naughts. Zionists employed assassination during the 20s and 30s. Zionist death squads practiced extensively during the 30s.
False flag operations became a standard technique during the 40s. During the 40s Zionists preferred to use children (often girls) to plant bombs. Also during the 40s. In addition, Zionists used germ warfare (typhus) and fairly routinely poisoned wells.
When the Zionists put the fully planned genocide into operation in Dec 1947, Zionists made copious use of rape. During the first phases of the genocide, Zionists drove civilians out of their villages because the leadership realized that fleeing civilians would bog down Arab League forces when these forces made a humanitarian intervention after the British departed in May.
Once the Arab League forces were stymied, the Zionist murder gangs and death squads had less reason to leave Palestinians alive and increased the frequency of mass murder.
Looting of Palestinian property was intended to create conditions for the physical destruction of the Palestinian group within territory that Zionists controlled. After 1949 Zionists routinely shot women and children that tried to return home.
During the 50s Zionists established semi-military kibbutzim (e.g, the Gaza Envelope, which Hamas attacked) to prevent the return of Palestinians. The Kfar Kassem murders were intended to drive the villagers out of Zionist-ruled Palestine.
Until 1967 the Zionist state kept the vast majority of Palestinian Israelis under oppressive military rule while the Zionist state wantonly destroyed Zionist villages.
The 1967 war was a criminal war of aggression. It was meant to finish the genocide that Zionists planned since 1881. The violations of the rules of war by the Zionist state have steadily increased in frequency since 1967.
I’m hearing the Supernova festival was full of “Zionists”?
This sort of reaction in the UK is just an anti-democratic attempt to use bullying rather than reasoning to create the appearance of a consensus.
Hamas is a terrorist organization and its actions are evil.
But, people have a right to form their own opinions and express them vigorously. These actions reflect an underlying lack of belief in the power of reason and persuasion to achieve sufficient social consensus.
Also, where does the censorship end? These ideas are too offensive to be expressed. Well, what other ideas will be deemed too inconvenient to express?
The irony is that the attacks themselves were based on a failure to embrace reason and rationality. What kind of example is being set here? Suppressing competing thought processes is not ultimately going to lead to more intelligent and discerning people. More like the opposite.
This is also democratic backsliding. Censorship as an alternative to persuasion is something we have seen many times in history, in times of both war and peace. If you look at a country like the UK, you have to wonder how much further it is going to go off the rails. Even before recent events, this country has been somewhat unfriendly to free speech principles.
Exactly. Once again, into the breach.
Does the left wing now understand, now see how easily tides can shift, and there’s no shortage of effort to ban speech?
Yes, this speech should not be banned. No thanks to you for the last 20 years.
Back in the 1970s, where Mr. and Mrs. Middle America wanted to ban Nazis marching, the ACLU stepped up to the plate. This was one of the formative cases birthing the epithet “Card-carrying member of the ACLU”.
Nazis have speech. Conservative assholes have speech. Liberal assholes who look glowingly on sliding a blade six inches deep into a baby’s 3 inch neck have speech.
Not sure what your objection to David’s comment is…because he is David?
Ten Fundamental Principles That Apply to the Zionist Theft of Palestine
1. Zionism is an ideology of genocide.
2. Zionists have explicitly evidenced dolus specialis of genocide since 1881.
3. The ridiculous fairy tale of Roman Expulsion does not constitute a legitimate active defense to a charge of committing genocide even if this fairy tale were true.
4. Genocide is an international and US federal capital crime without statute of limitations.
5. On Dec 11, 1946, the international community banned genocide and made this ban jus cogens.
6. The Zionist movement and the Zionist state are in probable violation of international and US federal anti-genocide law.
7. The US Zionist movement is in probable violation of the US federal statute that criminalizes material support to terrorists (= genocide-perpetrators).
8. Palestinians have no right to violate jus cogens by negotiating with the Zionist state.
9. No agreement with the Zionist state is valid because it would legalize genocide in violation of jus cogens.
10. The mere existence of the Zionist state negates the international anti-genocide legal regime and undermines international law.
Don’t you ever get tired of posting the same gibberish and lies over and over again?
People who dislike downscale, repetitive content wouldn’t survive a week of the Volokh Conspiracy’s predictable, wall-to-wall transgender rest room-white grievance-drag queen-Muslim-Black crime-lesbian-transgender parenting-lesbian-racial slur-transgender sorority drama coverage.
Any conservative still around enjoys the same old gibberish, lies, hypocrisy, and bigotry over and over again.
Good news for clingers — that bigoted, stale, recurring content is only going to get worse after Hoover Institution-Federalist Society values replace UCLA (mainstream, modern) values as a governor at this white, male, right-wing blog.
Kirkland will become self aware when AI does. Until then we’re stuck with a faulty chat bot.
Don’t you ever get tired of posting the same gibberish and lies over and over again?
Yes.
Seconded.
Your comfort with dozens of vile racial slurs — part of an incessant stream of bigoted right-wing contest — is noted, disdained, and recognized as part of the reason your preferences have been rejected by the modern American mainstream. Enjoy the practical consequences of losing a culture war, in part, because of your sympathy for right-wing bigots.
Cut from the same cloth as Kirkland.
BUT is UCLA still welcome in America????
Do you guys think Prof. Volokh’s departure from UCLA signals conservative strength and success in modern America?
Right-wingers are being painted into increasingly small, fringe, downscale corners of modern, improving-against-conservative-preferences America. Maybe this point will register when Stanford ditches the Hoover Institution.
There are no religions. There are no politics. There are just dictatorships lead by the local thug best at killing off his enemies, so he can be the kleptocrat in chief. Those things are his tools to achieve it.
Or you can have attempts at freedom, fits and starts maybe. Why defend the dictators? China? Putin, Hamas?
Some day Palestine may be a reality (outlook not so good rn) and on that day you will cheer the creation of a new dictatorship?
Demonization of Hamas serves no purpose. We can probably understand the motivation for the attack on the Gaza Envelope, which has been at least semi-military since it was created. The terrorist designation of Hamas is purely political because the designation is made by a US administrative agency that responds to the wealth of hyperwealthy US Zionists.
طوفان الأقصى (al-Aqsa Flood) took place because 76 years ago the Zionist colonial settlers put into operation the genocide, which had been meticulously planned since Dec 1946 and which will not have ended until Palestinians return to their homes, property, homes, and country.
On Dec 11, 1946 the international community banned genocide and made this ban jus cogens. Palestinians have been waiting for 75 years for the international community to obey its own law, end the Zionist state, and enable Palestinian return.
The creation of a Zionist state in Palestine was always predicated on the genocide of Palestinians.
Zionist colonial settlers went insane when they realized (a) that Palestinians constitute a slight majority of the population in stolen Palestine and (b) that the Palestinian population is much younger than the Zionist colonial settler population.
Since this Israeli government took power, it accelerated the never ending genocide.
The international community did not address Zionist outrages effectively. Hamas was intensely provoked into responding by making a stand now instead of waiting for a death of a thousand cuts as Zionist colonial settlers murder children, make living conditions unbearable, and steal el-Aqsa along with other Palestinian holy sites.
Oops I flagged you for review. They need an un-flag button.
Does “flagging ” even work? The only one who won’t see the comment now is you and if you hadn’t made mention of it no one else would know it was flagged.
I read on mobile so I flag like a half-dozen comments just scrolling by. The site also frequently thinks I tapped a comment and opens a reply. I cancel, the “flag” option appears in the same place then for some reason often thinks it was tapped, probably due to some sort of buffer. And sometimes my finger trembles and I actually double-tap and flag the comment.
Whatever. I’m pretty sure it’s a placebo anyway.
Considering the number of people punished for their speech every day at US universities, I can’t get too concerned about Hamas supporters in England. It’s interesting how the Conspirators want to focus attention away from their own institutions.
The classic “look a squirrel post”?
Yes, it was quite effective at drawing my attention away from pro-hamas support at universities as I was going through the comments here, while watching the college football scores on TV, watching the roadrunner on top of my brick wall, and wondering if its too hot out for a bike ride.
To suggest that Eugene Volokh is less than vigilant about criticizing unconstitutional campus speech restrictions is moronic.
He is vigilant. And selective. And partisan. And disrespected by mainstream academia.
Did you read the OP? Whose speech do you think he’s defending?
Zionists have at least since 1924 used violence and intimidation in an attempt to shut down speech that is pro-Palestinian or Zionism-critical.
Here is a recent effort: Israel-Palestine war: Pro-Israel council member brings gun to New York Palestine solidarity protest.
The most noteworthy violent Zionist efforts to shut down speech by violence and intimidation include:
1. the assassination of Jacob Israël de Haan on June 30, 1924
2. the assassination of Alex Odeh on October 11, 1985.
While the nearness of the month and day is probably accidental in both cases, al-Aqsa Flood looks like an effort to celebrate both the anniversary of the assassination of Alex Odeh and also the Ramadan/Yom Kippur War. The Hamas leadership is probably unfamiliar with Alex Odeh and would be unlikely to honor Anwar Sadat.
To this day, the UK police have Tommy Robinson under house arrest and a gag order for the terrible crime of drawing people’s attention to the fact that the UK’s police forces have adopted a policy of letting gangs of Pakistani immigrants rape school girls by the thousand with impunity, lest the police be called Islamophobes and be embarassed. This is why they have so much time and prison space available to devote to enforcement of thought crimes.
I suggest that police who support and enforce this policy — all the way up to the Home Office — be the first people prosecuted for supporting terrorism.
Nice to see far right fascists cross-pollinating over the Atlantic.
While the evidence of Zionist depravity is incontrovertible, the evidence of the ethnicity of groomers and grooming gangs seems ambiguous: Grooming gangs and ethnicity: What does the evidence say?.
To this day, the UK police have Tommy Robinson under house arrest
That is not, in fact, remotely accurate. Not only is Tommy Robinson free to go where he pleases, but UK police do not have the power to place anyone under house arrest.
Tommy Robinson is your kind of bigot, Volokh Conspiracy fans.
Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon is such a victim.
Nuke Gaza!
Nuke Hamas then make Gaza part of Israel again.
Biggest problem will be finding a country where Palestinians who wish to leave will be welcomed (NO Ilya, not the US).
Some time wandering in the wilderness, perhaps.
40 years is the benchmark, so I’ve heard.
Hamas are basically Moses, then. Well, that got icky fast.
Look at that sarcasm!
Suella Braverman, 2019:
Report concerning Suella Braverman, 2021:
Reports concerning Suella Braverman, Oct. 3, 2023:
Suella Braverman, Oct. 10, 2023:
This clinger seems to be following the same partisan, viewpoint-driven trajectory as the Volokh Conspiracy.
Carry on, clingers.
“That you or I distinguish Hamas attacks and retaliatory Israeli attacks on moral grounds (as I think we should) doesn’t mean we can count on government agencies, public universities, or courts drawing such sharp distinctions.”
Agreed — which brings to mind the old southern saying regarding the Second Amendment being the the backup plan necessary to assure meaningfulness of the First Amendment. It is ironic that taking up arms was (and, to a great degree remains) the only means of protecting the freedoms one purports to have.
It is equally ironic that every prayer for victory is simultaneously a prayer for the destruction of another: Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) observed each prayer “is two — one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this — keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time.” Clemens concludes the hypothetical prayer “[F]or our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.”
Perhaps our greatest failure is removing statues of surrendering General Robert E. Lee: the need for just accord after battle exists regardless of the source or initiator of conflict. Stifling dissent is not peace; instead, it is merely a continuation of military conquest.
Last weekend we got a lesson on why the 2nd Amendment is so important.
This weekend it’s the 1st Amendment.
Every weekend is a lesson on the problem of censorship from the perspective of Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland.
Time seems to be running out on this free speech offer: If a UCLA law student wishes to wear a handsome “Free Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland” t-shirt to class at the law school (with “Ask Prof. Volokh why” on the back), I will provide the shirt(s) and pay a cash prize to the first person who provides evidence. Simply provide an email address to which I can send information on arrangements.
Stand up for free speech and against partisan censorship, Bruins!
Hahaha could you imagine, Israel but with loads of guns… lol. Nice one Ben.
Every member of Hamas must be exterminated, but non-violent pro-Hamas rallies must be allowed. A big part of this is the ambiguous lines– in the recent Times Square rally, some of the protestors were Pro-Palestine but Anti-Hamas, some were just outright Pro-Hamas and congratulating them on a slaughter well done. I don’t trust the state to make those distinctions, so everything is allowed.
“in the recent Times Square rally, some of the protestors were Pro-Palestine but Anti-Hamas,”
In that case, they were in the wrong demonstration…
This is the solution: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-urges-biden-administration-cancel-visas-foreign-nationals-support-hamas-attack-israel
I prefer to let idiots to self identify in public.
I am sure that Ilya Somin will excoriate Egypt for not opening their borders to very deserving refugees. Any day now.
https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2023/10/13/egypts-sisi-refuses-to-take-in-palestinians-must-remain-on-their-land/
Why wouldn’t he?
He is curiously one-sided in who he bothers to criticize.
How dare he not take time out from his paid job to post for free about every topic you feel he should address.
Haha no he’s not.
You think he’s a secret liberal, don’t you?
Another installment in the Masks-Are-Slipping saga.
Dylan Evans is currently research officer in Evolutionary Robotics at the University of Bath. Previously he was a research fellow in the Philosophy Department at King’s College London, where he was involved in a project on the evolution of the emotions. His previous books include Emotion: the Science of Sentiment and Introducing Evolutionary Psychology. He contributes regularly to the Guardian, and broadcasts frequently.
So he is a left-wing academic/political writer in Britain. No student; a respected academic.
He posted on formerly-Twittern (aka X) the following:
It is rapidly becoming to clear that the so-called “final solution” wasn’t nearly final enough.
He then erased it, but it’s still on the archive:
https://archive.ph/xjIiz/image
Got it? That’s what we are dealing with — pining for the Final Solution.
And even after deleting it, apparently doubled down when confronted.
Account no longer exists — unclear if he deleted it or if it was deleted for him.
If a person does not know history, he should not babble ignorantly about it.
Without Operation Barbarossa, there would have been no Holocaust, and there was only a small window to start it. If the Nazis had been delayed for a mere three months, at least 50% maybe all of my father’s family would have survived instead of suffering mass murder in Ukraine.
Why Zionism Is Proximate Cause of the Shoah and of Approximately 80 million deaths during WW2
Preface
US law identifies Immediate Cause that creates liability for an action. US law also identifies Proximate Cause. But for the Proximate Cause, the action that creates immediate liability might never have taken place. The Proximate Cause also bears liability. The Holocaust provides an example in which Proximate Cause must be addressed.
Introduction
But for Zionism the Holocaust or Shoah would not have happened, and millions would have lived that perished.
Most white European Americans and other white Europeans believe a false propaganda history of WW2. White racial supremacist European Zionist colonial-settler invaders in Stolen Palestine both cultivate such white European ignorance and also batten on it. This white European ignorance often expresses itself in psychotic and delusional anti-antisemitism, which should be included among mental disorders in the DSM 5.
Blowback
The Shoah was mostly blowback from the wildly disproportionate and prominent role that Jewish Soviet leaders played in atrocities and genocide during the Communist Revolution as well as during the consolidation of the USSR. The role of Jewish Bolsheviks in atrocities and genocide hardly means Soviet communists did not victimize Jews. Jews involved in commerce and finance were considered class enemies. While Jewish Bolsheviks brutally targeted such Jewish class enemies in the effort to transform Jews into the quintessential Soviet class, non-Jews in Europe and the USSR were almost completely unaware of such brutal Jew-on-Jew oppression.
The Stupidity of WW2
WW2 was a stupid war and mostly a continuation of WW1 with a change of ruling elite in Germany. Hitler did not even run as an antisemite in 1932, but his core supporters were mostly Ostdeutsch (Eastern European and Russian German) refugees angry or afraid of Jews because of the wildly disproportionate and prominent role Jewish Soviet leaders played in the persecution of Germans in the Soviet Union.
Großdeutschland
Hitler’s primary policy goal was the creation of Großdeutschland (Greater Germany). With the division of Poland between Germany and the USSR in 1939, he had achieved this goal. He wanted to conclude the war with a peace treaty with the UK because he and the German military leadership were certain that the USSR would eventually renounce the Soviet-German pact and invade if there were no peace treaty with the UK.
The progressive press in the UK – especially those Jewish journalists sympathetic to the USSR – favored a peace treaty to end the Phoney War or Sitzkrieg or Drôle de Guerre. Opposition to a peace treaty came mostly from the right because the traditional British foreign policy toward Europe included prevention of European unity first under the Spanish Habsburgs, then under Napoleonic France, and now under Germany. Yet, the British right was generally sympathetic to Hitler’s internal policies and might have been willing to come to a treaty arrangement with Germany even if the British right was unwilling to tolerate continental Europe united under Germany.
In contrast, Zionist members of the Cousinhood of Wealthiest British Jews poured money into a campaign against peace and for transformation of the Phoney War into real total war because the Zionists were angry that even with all the actions Hitler had taken against Jews, European Jews desperately tried either to stay in Europe or to emigrate from Europe to the Americas. [1]
The Perfidiousness of the Zionists of the Jewish Cousinhood
The Zionists of the Cousinhood and the Zionist leadership in Palestine wanted intense hot war in Europe in order to force Jews in E. Europe to flee to Palestine when all other possible destinations were closed off. Zionists also worked hard to close off all other possible destinations for fleeing Jews. [2]
Zionist leaders got the full scale war they desired. Fearful of later waging a defensive war on two fronts, Hitler intending quick victory invaded the USSR first on June 22, 1941, but Jews could not get out. Both Eastern European non-Jews and also liberated Soviet nationalities
* angry at the Soviet Union or
* fearful of the Soviet Union
unleashed murderous violence wherever and whenever possible on Jews, who had become so closely associated in the popular mind with Soviet murders, atrocities, and genocides. We sometimes find reports from Wehrmacht officers that were astounded and sometimes horrified by the anti-Jewish violence.
Murdering Jews en Masse
The Shoah, which started in Yugoslavia, was born as Germany followed the lead of the local people, who started to murder Jews en masse.
Because Germany was a follower in the Shoah and not the director, it is difficult to find German government documents to show that the Shoah/Final Solution was official German government policy, and Shoah historians hang their hat on documents from the Wannsee conference, which took place on January 20, 1942. The Wannsee Conference took place after mass murders considered part of the Shoah had already taken place for several months.
The rest is history.
Suppose the UK had negotiated a peace treaty before the invasion of the Soviet Union and thus before the start of the Holocaust. The treaty could even have covered removal of Jews from the territory of Großdeutschland, and Jews in territories under Soviet control would have escaped threat of the Holocaust while German satellite states might never have been forced to hand Jews over to German forces for murder.
This alternate history would have rotted for Poland, but the actual history turned out worse for Poland and for the tens of millions, who died in WW2, which was a completely useless and stupid war.
In the alternate history, the Zionist goal of emptying Europe of its Jews would never have been achieved, and the Shoah would never have taken place. Before the invasion of the Soviet Union, Hitler was only interested in evacuating Jews from Germany and would probably have spent the next 15 years in finishing the consolidation of Großdeutschland.
Zionism is Proximate Cause of Shoah
The Zionists got their war, and they at least proximately caused the Shoah (and thus the murder of almost every member of my father’s family in the Ukraine) by thwarting a peace treaty between the UK and Germany.
Sympathizing with Zionists is like feeling sorry for a guy because he became an orphan after he murdered his parents.
In the real history, vicious bloodthirsty white racial supremacist European Zionist invaders founded the State of Israel (the Zionist state) in an atrocious act of genocide after Auschwitz and after the 1946 Nuremberg International Tribunal (NIT).
The NIT marks the start of the international anti-genocide legal regime, and white European racists suffering from worthy victim syndrome are unwilling to address the genocide that white racial supremacist European Zios committed and continue to perpetrate on non-European natives of Palestine.
Not only is Zionism a proximate cause of the Shoah, but it remains the gift that keeps giving by vitiating the international anti-genocide legal regime and undermining international law.
Opposing abolition of the Zionist state today is at least as depraved as opposing abolition of US slavery before the US Civil War.
Opposing abolition of the Zionist state today is probably more depraved than opposing abolition of US slavery before the Civil War,
* because slavery was legal before the Civil War while the Zionist state is unique among states with genocide in their history,
* because its founding genocide took place after the 1946 Nuremberg Tribunal, and
* because it continues post-Nuremberg genocide of the natives before the eyes of the world.
There is no statute of limitations for genocide in either international or US law.
Supporting the continued existence of the Zionist state is genocidal racism in effect if not in intent.
Because Zionism has transformed Judaism, Jewishness, Jewish identity, Yiddishkeyt into a program for genocide, the continued existence of the Zionist state and of Zionism as an effective political force guarantees that eventually Jews will constitute the most hated group on the planet.
When any Jewish or non-Jewish person supports Zionism, he supports a movement
* that made the murder of the the vast majority of Jews of Europe a certainty and
* that was proximate cause of the deaths of tens of millions of non-Jews.
WWII Books Worth Reading
The Phoney Victory: The World War II Illusion by Peter Hitchens (Bloomsbury Publishing, Sep 6, 2018) – Hitchens is a conservative author, who goes out of his way to grovel before Zionists.
Churchill, Hitler, and “The Unnecessary War”: How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World by Patrick J. Buchanan (Crown, May 27, 2008) – Buchanan does not grovel before Zionists.
Notes
1 Zionism is a depraved delusional ideology. Jesus and his disciples were all Palestinians. Yet European Christians, who all descend from local European converts, have no interest in relocating to Palestine.
Likewise, the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament recounts stories of ancient Palestine/Canaan. Yet European Jews, who all descend from local European converts, had practically no interest in relocating to Palestine until after WW2.
The point can be made in another way.
Just as only a moron, an ignoramus, or a liar claims modern Roman Catholics descend from ancient Romans, likewise only a moron, an ignoramus, or a liar claims modern Jews descend from Greco-Roman Judeans, whose descendants gradually converted to Christianity and thence to Islam. In truth, a small fraction of modern Roman Catholics descend from ancient Romans. In contrast, no Greco-Roman Judeans left or were removed from Palestine en masse. All modern Jews descend from non-Judean converts to Judaism.
It is important to recognize that Rabbinic Judaism, which does not crystallize until the 10th century CE, has less connection to Biblical Judaism than either Orthodox Christianity or Islam does.
2 The behavior of the Zionist leadership with respect to Jewish refugees trying to flee from German controlled territory before WW2 was despicable. Ben-Gurion really wasn’t interested in helping Jews that could not actively participate in committing genocide and in stealing Palestine. I may be overstating, but in Ben-Gurion’s calculation and that of the Zionist leadership, the murders of Zionism-useless Jews could serve to distract from Zionist crimes against the natives of Palestine.
Shorter version: The Jews Asked for the Holocaust.
You are a piece of filth. You should be banned from here. Meanwhile, I will mute you.
It’s the standard Zionist propaganda tactic to conflate Zionists with Jews. If a Palestinian makes the same equation, he is accused of antisemitism even though Zionist colonial settlers scream in chorus that Zionism is Judaism and that Judaism is Zionism.
I summarized the work of a Columbia researcher that was trying to understand why the Phoney War did not just fizzle out. He was a Zionist until he studied the archival information. Then he hated Zionism and blamed Zionism for the murders of practically his entire family.
You keep saying “Zionist” so much, you’ll go blind.
And not for the other reason you’ll go blind, if you already aren’t,
anyone calls me a Zionist, they’re getting a balled up fist right between the eyes.
Frank
Time for the VC to institute a word limit on comments?
Just use the “Mute User” feature. I decided months (or possibly years, I forget how long ago he first commented) ago that he was neither worth listening to nor likely to change. Reactions to him now support that conclusion.
Yes, I know I could, but on principle I don’t mute anyone. I don’t want to be in the same company as the snowflakes who profess to love free speech unless it contradicts their self important opinions. Also, there is the possibility that like a stopped clock an annoying commentator may on occasion add something to the conversation (although AFLAC seems to be the exception).
I love free speech, too, but that doesn’t mean I necessarily want to hear everything anyone wants to say. After all, most people spout nonsense; some people spout utterly disgusting filth. You may consider all sources of comment equally worthy of your time, but I do not. Love yourself.
Muting someone has nothing whatsoever to do with “free speech.”
You’re such a pain in the ass.
Like I give a fuck if someone “Mutes” me, it’s actually a sign of weakness that someone gets you to take the trouble to “mute” them.
Personally I don’t mute anyone just because I disagree with their comments. I mute people who insist on lowering the discussion with juvenile personal insults and meaningless partisan drivel. The entire reason I started coming to this blog is to read posts that I disagree with, and that challenge my preconceptions. I sometimes wonder why other commenters are here, and why they take the time to write comments.
Defending / celebrating the barbaric attacks on Israeli civilians on 10/7 is as low as it gets. But government shouldn’t censor speech, even truly awful speech. I agree with Prof. Volokh and FIRE.
The people of the Gaza Envelope are not innocent civilians, and they were not attacked because they are Jewish.
I am Jewish — I worked in Gaza & had no problem
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The Gaza Envelope was attacked not because the people are Jewish.
(They aren’t. They are post-Judaism because Zionism murdered Judaism by transforming Judaism into a program of genocide.)
The Gaza Envelope was attack because it is legitimate military target. The Zionist state created the Gaza Envelope to make sure that the genocide would be irreversible that started in Dec 1947 with Nakba. This genocide will not have ended until Palestinians return to their homes, property, villages, and country.
The people of the Gaza Envelope kibbutzim and settlements murdered many Palestinian refugees that tried to return home from Gaza.
New Jersey?? Fuck, now I almost feel sorry for the piece of shit.
We are watching the equivalent of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and most Americans support the equivalent of the Nazis.
I wish I belonged to Gen Z.
The crimes of Zionists have been obvious for all to see since at least as far back as the 1890s.
The greatest generation defeated the Nazis only to support racial supremacists whose mentality is congruent with the mentality of Nazis.
Seems that way.
But, it’s also understandable. People have been ignoring the lessons their ancestors have learned (often at great cost) throughout recorded history. All lessons from the past will be forgotten eventually. Why should these generations be any different? (Despite how they think of themselves, obviously.)
You guys are projecting hard. Neither side is remotely similar to the Nazis.
You may be seeing a generation with less built-in sympathy for Israel (this part could be due to less awareness of WWII) and more sympathy for Palestine (perhaps because of a greater familiarity with Arabs and Muslims).
I also think the prevalence of one-sided rhetoric in favor of “blameless, righteous Israel” of the David Bernstein style doesn’t resonate with the generations that see both sides, and may push some of them even further towards the Palestinians. That along with the power imbalance.
It’s bad policy to forbidding protesting but good policy to criminalize harassing individual people. American law on harassment is far too permissive. People should have the right to go about their day without being hassled personally. The courts may recognize a right to badger people in public but it’s not a good thing.
It’s even worse that we’ve been moving toward flipping the script – more and more often, US public officials are legally and practically insulated from this sort of thing, but private individuals are not.